Top militaries soilder for soilder wise .. your opinions ?

[Lenwen]

As for magic, and Erin Tarn there is zero ambiguity there as far as the CS go's.

This is what I'm saying: there is zero ambiguity as to whether the CS has any kind of problem getting resources.

can you post the book and page that says they are sitting on unlimited resources ?

KC I find it utterly hilarious that you want a book andpg number to hats widely known as one of the biggest handwaviums of the cs..

And the truth is that the cs have literally unlimited resources bar none book an pg number be damned as all one has to do is read the books.. various boks from inlimited skelebots (tolkeen seres) to unlimited food supplies (ngr books) to unlimited samas and completely revamping of their military (cwc) and the whole while thee single solitary refrence to any type o resources was in Juicer uprisings. And it was about oil if memory serves.. Now admittedly I am not an armor maker of any kind but i firmly believe1 can not make MDC composite military grade armrs out of oil reserves discissed in Juicer Uprisings...



Again .. admittedly I very well may be wrong but thats my thought process on the cs unlimited resoirces supplies ...


And if i am wrong could you please cite me sources as to where the resoirces come from ?

[Akashic Soldier]

I find it hilarious you write an essay rather than giving him one.

It's taken me two hours to read this whole thread. It has been epic and ive learned a lot about some of the people here and how they think. Truth be told I was a little apprehensive when Cyborg Killer took something I'd said as a light hearted compliment and put it in his signature slightly out of context but now I could not be prouder. He is a scion of reason in a sea of opinion.

That said, let me really be unpopular for a moment and just say according to the mechanoid write ups you could stand at the end of a tunnel with a raingun and no pants and blow away them one after another while hurling insult after insult at them and they'd just keep on marching head on into death. So there is any number of ways the ML could have raked up those kills and protected the people. A lot of ways the CS might well be able to pull off just as easily.

Next, as a writer I find the aversion to handwavery laughable and almost insulting, almost. And so should you. Sure, I think that if they were going to do it simply creating a rift for the missiles to pass harmlessly through would be better for the most part. But not everything's going to be perfect, you hit you miss.

Also I am SURE if I grabbed people here and made them march through bug infested lands and play out that senario (or any other) mentioned here not only would they find a way to do it but I don't think one PC would say "**** it" after accomplishing their mission--not after watching all their friends die for the sucsess of this mission.

The same is true for everything that's been mentioned. Everyone's crunching numbers but there are no details of how anything happened. But I'm surprised by people's lack if faith in old fashioned human innovation, insulted almost.

It's a story every Aussie knows but five Australian soldiers that got trapped in the jungles of Vietnam for two weeks were able to kill 312 enemy combatants, keep one of their wounded mobile, stay concealed, fed, and make it home after two straight weeks in a highly active warzone. Now that's a real life story. They didn't need tanks, their rifles ran out if ammo on day nine, it was hell. But they did it. Regular guys like you or me. They weren't even special forces. Just five guys who got cut off and stranded.

WHO KNOWS what chemical supermen or borgs are capable of but if science fiction (and it's a BIG part of Rifts) has taught me anything it's that a team of four or five guys can topple the biggest badest adversaries and if something is COOL just enjoy it!

Seriously, it's a role playing game, ignite the imagination, weigh the odds but never say something is impossible!! If you cam think of it then you can find a way to do it!!

The ultimate soldier is the guy who is afraid to die but gets out there and risks it all anyway for a cause he believes in and it's got sweet FA to do with his arsenal or uniform. Tech can be liberated, force-fields dug under, nuclear reactors sabotaged and I don't care if you're a dragon or Zhul his badself if I crash a battle ship into your face let's see you walk that off.

[Nightmask]

I find it hilarious you write an essay rather than giving him one.

It's taken me two hours to read this whole thread. It has been epic and ive learned a lot about some of the people here and how they think. Truth be told I was a little apprehensive when Cyborg Killer took something I'd said as a light hearted compliment and put it in his signature slightly out of context but now I could not be prouder. He is a scion of reason in a sea of opinion.

That said, let me really be unpopular for a moment and just say according to the mechanoid write ups you could stand at the end of a tunnel with a raingun and no pants and blow away them one after another while hurling insult after insult at them and they'd just keep on marching head on into death. So there is any number of ways the ML could have raked up those kills and protected the people. A lot of ways the CS might well be able to pull off just as easily.

Could doesn't mean did though. The ML's battle with the Mechanoids is stated to be a planetary invasion and unlike your suggestion there the Mechanoids are shooting back and they aren't shooting with sling shots. They do have a measure of self-preservation even for the purely mechanical bots since you really want them to last as long as possible to wear an enemy down (unless you're the Robotech Masters and their one-hit-kill armor for their troops because they weren't very bright). So your guy with no pants would be dead really quickly. The idea of hiding in cover and getting easy sniper kills just isn't going to be happening in a scenario like that for the Megaversal Legion's battle with the Mechanoids. The CS meanwhile we know doesn't have anything that would let them handle such an attack, they aren't built or set-up for dealing with anything like that and certainly have no training or experience for such situations. No one outside of extra-dimensional sorts like Atlantis or the ML are.

[Akashic Soldier]

It doesn't say how it happened but it does say they have a glaring and easily exploitable weakness. Replace tunnel with canyon and rail gun with tank and pantsless guy with rotating soldiers, none of which are especially fond of pants and it's relatively the same result.

They get angry at seeing your jiggily bits, fly into a rage, or give some foolish human speech while your stealth guy plants high-end explosives on their back. ANYTHING could have happened. But I'm yet to see an example presented of something a ML soldier CAN DO that a CS soldier CAN'T.

[Killer Cyborg]

Not seeing where anyone can rightly claim that the CS is all that when even with the upgrade in the War Campaign book they're far more about posturing and doing their best to fight curb stomp battles where a high level of skill and training on the part of their troops isn't necessary. Free Quebec has a far better claim to that than the CS does. Unless the CS got a rewrite I haven't seen in some newer book they're only average as things go and certainly not possessed of the best army or even third best around and only have their big wins because they're written to have won even when they simply shouldn't have and producing more than they ought to be able to. Which as I already noted is what you expect of an evil empire, the writers always give them a godly blessing to continue even when they ought to fail. You can hardly keep writing books if all your evil empires are written as falling and good taking hold and a second even greater Platinum Age has begun.

Support your claims or quit wasting time.
You want to claim that the CS is far more about posturing then combat, that's fine- back up the claim.
You want to claim that their troops aren't highly trained or skilled? Back it up.
You want to claim that they win due to writer's fiat rather than their in-game stats? Back it up.

Since you insist on taking it personally prove it wrong.Or at least shake your head and walk away.

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, not on the people hearing it.

[Lenwen]

Ok i have to know now lmao..

KC do you truly think the resources thath the CS have are actully not unlimited even though miltiple books would show otherwise ?

[Nightmask]

It doesn't say how it happened but it does say they have a glaring and easily exploitable weakness. Replace tunnel with canyon and rail gun with tank and pantsless guy with rotating soldiers, none of which are especially fond of pants and it's relatively the same result.

They get angry at seeing your jiggily bits, fly into a rage, or give some foolish human speech while your stealth guy plants high-end explosives on their back. ANYTHING could have happened. But I'm yet to see an example presented of something a ML soldier CAN DO that a CS soldier CAN'T.

Read?

While they have a psychological weakness it's not as stupidly crippling as you're making out otherwise the Mechanoids wouldn't be such a feared pestilence that even gods and alien intelligences fear them. They're crazy not stupid.

[Killer Cyborg]

As for magic, and Erin Tarn there is zero ambiguity there as far as the CS go's.

This is what I'm saying: there is zero ambiguity as to whether the CS has any kind of problem getting resources.

can you post the book and page that says they are sitting on unlimited resources ?

Nope.
And they're NOT sitting on unlimited resources.
But they DO have quite a lot at their disposal, and that's made incredibly clear in the first couple of Rifts books (Rifts and Sourcebook 1), the same place where you claim to have gotten your impression that they DO have problems getting resources.

So let's compare notes:

Rifts, 52
The CS Grunt, the "everyday infantry soldier" of the CS, has (among others) the following skills:
Pilot Hovercraft
Pilot Tank & APC
Robot Combat: Basic

Their BASIC infantry, the guy right out of boot camp, is trained to pilot tanks, hovercraft, robots and power armor.
Does this imply:
a) The CS has limited resources, and probably not a lot of tanks, hovercraft, robots, and power armor at their disposal?
or
b) The CS has enough resources to have a large enough supply of these high-tech and costly war machines that theytake the time, effort, and expense to train every single one of their grunts with the skills to use them, because they know that there are plenty of these machines to go around?

Let's look at the equipment list (again, for the "everyday infantry" of the CS).
Notice that the "Equipment available upon assignment" starts with "Any weapon types."
ANY weapon types.
Their basic soldier can, upon assignment, have ANY WEAPON.
This indicates that they have a sufficient stock of weapons that even high-priced and/or non-standard weapons are readily available for any of their soldiers an an as-needed basis.

Next up is "extra ammunition," again indicating a healthy stock (this is on top of the 8 spare E-Clips that each Grunt already gets as standard).
Again, this indicates a healthy stock of ammunition.

Next up is "Spider Skull Walker, Enforcer UAR-1, Other robot vehicles, hovercraft (especially hovercycle), tank..."
So yeah... they're not just training every one of their basic infantry with the skills to use those vehicles for fun, they're doing it because they fully expect their grunts to use that training from time to time.

Also, note that the average grunt gets a monthly salary of 1700 Credits, along with food, clothing, and "all other basics" for free.
We know that the Credit is the equivalent of the modern US or Canadian dollar (MOPs 108), though it can't buy a lot of the same mass-produced luxuries that we enjoy today at the same rate.
But that means that the average Grunt earns roughly the equivalent of $20,400/year, plus room and board and other expenses.
The pay as of 2011 for a US military rank E-1 is $1491.00 per month.
Rank E-3 and higher can make more money than the Grunt's equivalent, but the salary listed for the Grunt starts at level one, a green recruit fresh from bootcamp.
So, overall, the CS military can afford to pay its soldiers more or less what the United States of America can pay its soldiers.
Considering that the CS's territory is composed of less than 1/3 of the area of the United States, and they don't have the same level of international trade or other infrastructure, that level of pay demonstrates that they have a remarkably high level of resources available to them for their size and limitations.

Rifts 53
Notice that even though every infantryman leaves boot camp with training in piloting robots, power armor, and hovercycles, the CS has specialists in that kind of piloting. They don't just wait for their Grunts to level up, THEN give them the fancy toys, they specially train elite pilots as well. Again, this indicates that they have plenty of power armor, robots, and other high-tech vehicles available.

Rifts 56
While there are feudal states that take advantage of MOM technology, the CS has outlawed it.
If they were in a truly tight spot, with limited resources, they would be more likely to legalize and utilize this kind of technology, creating super-soldiers to help them survive. As it is, though, they can afford the luxury of rejecting such extreme measures of survival.
Same with Juicers (p. 69): The CS not only forbids Juicer technology among its citizens, they won't even hire outside Juicer mercenaries, even for cannon fodder.

Rifts 128
For those of you who have seen the growing cities of Chi-Town and Quebec, these cities resemble those before the Time of the Rifts.

Rifts 129, under the description of Minnesota
This area was a haven for civilized people... these multi-racial towns have prospered and grown over the last 40 years, though still tiny by Coalition standards. This prosperity has made Minnesota human neighbors and the Coalition nervous.

The Coalition's immediate opposition will be the city of Tolkeen... Without question, Tolkeen is the largest and most powerful city in the area....
The real opposition that awaits the Coalition is the alien insect race known as the Xiticix...

There were, before the CS intervention, a large number of towns that prospered for decades, that were considered a haven for civilized people, and that were prosperous enough to inspire envy in their neighbors.
The largest and most powerful of these cities was Tolkeen.
And they were TINY by Coalition standards.

The REAL opposition in that area to the CS's plans is NOT any of the human cities, or a combination of the human cities that have spent 40 years growing strong in that area- it's the race of insects that has spent only 20 years growing and spreading, and already numbering by some accounts (Rifts 253) in the hundreds of thousands.

Again, Tolkeen "has no hope of survival against an all-out siege," and they're not the real opposition to the CS in that area, despite that city being "without question" the most powerful of the region.
This does not make the CS sound like they're short on resources.

Rifts 140
The Coalition State of Chi-Town encompasses Northern Illinois and all of Iowa. The Iowa section is 70% farmland and 30% livestock, pigs and cattle. Tiny farm communities can be found every 50 miles or so.
The Iowa section explains how some of their food necessities are met- they have an entire US State dedicated to food production.
But notice the other part, about how the state encompasses Northern Illinois.
Illinois has a number of natural resources, coal being one of them, including significant deposits in Northern Illinois.
Does the CS use coal?
Probably for something. They might use it to supplement their nuclear power sources, not caring about the high sulfur content of the coal. Or they might extract the sulfur to use for other stuff, or they might turn the coal into high-carbon compounds and/or plastics.
There's aLOT of coal in Illinois:
"Illinois' recoverable reserves of coal are larger than those of any state east of the Mississippi River and the third largest in the country, behind only Montana and Wyoming. About 200 billion tons of coal are estimated to lie underground in the state."
And there's a heck of a lot that you can do with coal.

Also, northern Illinois has lead, and Illinois in general has industrial sand quarries or pits, limestone and dolomite stone quarries and underground mines, clay pits, peat pits, and tripoli quarries.
Not to mention quite a bit of timber, farmland, and other resources.

So in northern Illinois alone, even assuming that for some reason there isn't ANY CS mining in the entire state of Iowa, they have a very strong source of coal for power, oil, plastics, and carbon products, as well as stone and timber for construction, and clay for ceramics.
Since the three main MDC materials we see are metal, ceramics, and plastics, that gives them a strong potential supply for 2 out of 3.

Back to Rifts p. 140
The pervasive presence of the military is everywhere in the state of Chi-Town, according to Tarn.
The Illinois portion of the Chi-Town State is the undisputable hub of North America civilization.
The people seem quite content and blissful.

Rifts, 141
Missouri is a tactical addition of the Coalition, and is one of the weakest and most timid of the allied states.
It is a rich farmland...
The Coalition has pumped a great deal of money and resources into the develpment of Missouri, which is quickly becoming anew haven for humankind.

The state of Missouri (the US state and the CS state have the same borders) has a large supply of mineral resources, including iron, copper, lead, zinc, cobalt, nickel, various kinds of clay, silica sand, silver, manganese, tungsten, limorite, hematite, barite, limestone, high-magnesium dolemite, granite, felsite, coal, oil, natural gas, and so on.
And, as mentioned, farmland.

In Arkansas, the CS has a strong ally in Fort El Dorado, which has oil fields and refining plants, as well as sawmills and natural gas facilities.

Rifts, 143
The Coalition State of Lonestar claims all of the US state of Texas, although the are that they "really" control is limited to "the northwestern edge from odessa to Amarillo and east to Witchita Falls.
At this point, I could research and link to the resources to be found in that section of Texas, but if you don't get the point, or don't agree with it, by now, I doubt that will help.
Texas has oil, natural gas, iron, copper, and much of the same resources mentioned above, including in the region that the CS controls as of 101 PA.

Rifts 149
The Coalition State of Iron Heart includes "a vast territory," and it's capital City of Iron is "actually much larger" than its pre-rifts days of Sudbury.
It's factories, mines, and saw mills provide people with employment and offers the luxury of civilization, technology, and protection by the Coalition...
Mins and processing plants for iron, nickel, copper, coal, and a bit of silver and gold are the City of Iron and Iron Heart's greatest resource. But it was another asset that convinced Chi-Town to accept Iron Heart as a member of the Coalition States...
Specifically, it was a pre-rifts science museum.
So while Iron Heart was an industrial power, with plenty of resources at its disposal, the CS didn't really need it.
What they wanted was a chance at any pre-rifts technology or knowledge that gets dug up, not the resources or industry.
Which indicates that they already have quite a bit of that on their own.

Meanwhile, Free Quebec is "a high-tech, industrial giant and completely self-supporting" of its population of 1 million people.
And (Rifts 150) this "high-tech, industrial giant" has a technology level that is 25% lower than that of Chi-Town, "perhaps as much as 40%."

Rifts, 152
Without satellites, communications is limited to ground systems and fiber optics which require broadcasting/relay stations or ground cables. Only the Coalition and a few of the largest cities have the means to implement such systems (the Coalition States all have an impressive broadcast and telephone system).
Sounds like they have a healthy infrastructure- ALL Coalition States have impressive communications systems, considering their lack of satellites.

Rifts, 157
From a description of Chi-Town:
Inside is an incredible megalopolis where the elite true humans and their protectors live.
You don't get an "incredible megalopolis" if you're struggling for resources.

Rifts, 191
The Coalition has the most powerful army in the known world. Their level of technology is unsurpassed in the Americas.

And, from Tarn's writings, Small, almost inconsequential acts of aggression under the guise of "security" weaves an unmistakable patter of growing military strength and imperialistic conquests. These inconsequential acts of self-preservation have increased the landholdings of Chi-town by 12% and have increased manufacturing and political strength by as much as 35%.

Rifts, 193
On the standard Dead Boy armor:
The armor is a lightweight ceramic, with metal accents, bonded on a molecular level, making it stronger than steel.
This is why I pointed out the clay pits in Illinois and Missouri- you get ceramics from clay.
You have clay, along with the right tech and manufacturing gear, you have MDC body armor.

Rifts 193-202
Remember how ALL of the Coalition's "everyday infantry" is trained to pilot robots, power armor, tanks, APCs, and sky cycles?
Here's were we get a look at that equipment.
A single SAMAS is worth 1.6 million credits.
An Enforcer is worth 28 million credits.
A Spider Skull Walker is worth 36 million credits.
A Mark V APC is worth 21+ million credits.
A Sky Cycle is worth 1 million credits.
And these are all listed as available for any grunt in the military, if the assignment in question warrants it.
This is stuff that gets used, commonly, by the basic infantry of the Coalition.
This indicates that they have plenty of wealth and resources as a nation.

Also note that these are not the most cost-effective combat vehicles that the CS could have created.
Anything with a nuclear power supply gets an unlimited supply of ammunition for lasers or other energy weapons for the duration of that power supply's lifespan, so if a nation was strapped in resources in any way, they would be likely to design their war machines to take advantage of that fact, and to rely heavily on energy weapons in order to conserve resources.
But the SAMAS doesn't even HAVE a laser- it uses a rail gun, which use up 40 rounds every time the trigger is pulled, and mini-missiles.
And not just any mini-missiles, but Plasma and Armor Piercing as standard. So that's CR 2,200 per missile used.
They reject FREE energy weapon ammunition in favor of railguns and missiles, because railguns have better range and missiles have better range and damage. Railguns and missiles cost a heck of a lot more, but the CS isn't really worried about cost.

Similar situation with the Enforcer. There are two light laser turrets with good (4,000') range and unlimited ammunition, but the main weapons for the bot are its 80-rounds-burst railgun, some medium range missile launchers (HE or Plasma as standard, so that's 25,000-50,000 Credits per missile launched), some short-range missile launchers (AP, HE, or Plasma as standard, so that's 2,500-5,000 Credits per missile launched, and a mini-missile launcher (same cost as with the SAMAS).
One good battle can cost them hundreds of thousands of credits in spent ammunition alone, but that's not a strong enough incentive for the CS to bother relying more on laser weapons, and less on more expensive ammunition.
It's worth the cost for the weapons they use, and they apparently have plenty of money.

Same deal with the Spider Skull Walker: it has some lasers, but mostly relies on massive railguns that fire 80-round bursts from two cannons at once. No missiles on it, though I don't see any reason to believe that it's because the CS can't afford them. The Skull Walker is a CR 36 million robot spider, so it doesn't seem like they need to pinch any pennies.

The Mark V has more lasers than the other vehicles, but its main weapons, again, are a railgun (40-round bursts) and some forward-facing missile launchers, along with some auto-cannons (no idea how much the frag rounds for that cost, but it's probably comparable to mini-missiles).

As for the Sky Cycle, it's got mini-missile launchers and a laser turret. No rail gun, but that's probably due more to issues of weight and/or recoil than of cost. You don't go with missiles if you're on a budget, not for vehicles that your average grunt is probably going to be driving around in.

Rifts, 218
The Coalition State of Free Quebec is the only kingdom within the Coalitino that manufactures and deploys Glitter Boys, a policiy that will be discontinued if Emperor [Prosek] has anything to say about it (he seeks a consistent and unified force and GBs are not part of his plan).
The Coalition States can manufacture and use perhaps THE most powerful suit of power armor available, but decides not to for aesthetic and political reasons.
Nations that are strapped for resources don't generally decide against adding to their firepower simply because they want things to be more uniform.
The CS has the manufacturing and economic capabilities to have the luxury of picking and choosing what and who goes into their military.

SB1, 12
The Coalition States is the largest and most powerful nation in the Americas

Fifty percent of the Coalition's citizens have some form of cybernetic or bionic augmentation. The majority of these implants are minor or for medical reasons... Cybernetic and high-tech medical treatment have increased the average life expectancy of those living in the big cities, like Chi-town, to 90 years. The smaller CS cities and towns enjoy an average life expectancy of about 80 years.

A town, by definition, must engage in industry (even primitive industry like barrel-making, carpentry, tailoring, etc.), services (mail delivery, repairs, stores, etc.), trade (exchanging finished goods or services for raw materials), administration (some sort of governing body, king, lord, priest, leader, council of elders, etc.), research and development (both the town's deveopment and industry's). Without these six conditions, a gathering of people and buildings is not a town.
The population of a town can be as little as a few hundred to several thousand.
(Rifts, 140: The Illinois population of the Chi-Town State has hundreds of small towns)

SB1, 21
A man always thinking of the future, Emperor Prosek has directed Chi-Town and Lone-Star military to dispatch reconnaissance forces into New Mexico and Central America. The primary objective is to scout the land for future invasion and secondly, to address the rumors of vampires dominating Central America... Rumor has it that a few secret CS outposts have already been established in Central America.

The CS is secure enough in their current position and power to be thinking about long-term conquests, and was already making motions in that direction as early as 102 PA.

Also, note that Prosek has special body armor that has 100 MDC (like the later-implemented new style CS Heavy Dead Boy armor), but weighs only 15 lbs.
Just another sign of their high tech. General Cabot (p. 22) has the same kind of armor.

SB1, 27
A Coalition Reconnaissance Squad is a team of soldiers whose job is to explore and investigate a particular region. The investigation may be to search for the enemy (usually to locate and identify, NOT seek and destroy, although a possible option), monitoring an area (to make certain the enemy is not operating in that area), or mapping and noting of a region...

Note that a Light Mechanized Recon Squad has 2-3 SAMAS, 2-3 Grunts, and that there is a 70% chance that the grunts will be piloting Sky Cycles. Just to highlight jet again that Grunts regularly use pieces of million-credit equipment. There's also a tech officer (same transport as the grunts) and a Military Specialist (SAMAS or Sky Cycle or Bionic augmentation).
The HEAVY Mechanized Recon Squad has heavier stuff, from Abolishers to Skull Walkers, teamed with SAMAS, of course.

SB1, 33
The Skelebots are comparatively inexpensive, mass produced unites designed with the thought that they will have a high mortality/destruction rate considering their intended deployment into extremely hostile environments.

SB1, 34
Black Market Cost: Three Million Credits

The CS is using as cannon fodder, high-tech robots that they mass produce, with the full understanding that these robots will not be long-lived, and will take a lot of losses. These "comparatively inexpensive" robots have a resale value of 3 million credits.
The kind of resources and manufacturing base that would be required for that is impressive- not the kind of thing that an empire with any kind of lack of resources would attempt.

SB1, 38
Triax Industries has become increasingly aggressive in their marketing and sale of robots, power armor, and other weapons and equipment in North America...
The main reason that Triaz Industries' products are now more available is that Emperor Prosek has agreed to a little known and informal pact with the infamous New Republic (Germany and Scandinavia)...
The pact includes a limited trade agreement that gives Triax access to less hostile, CS secured, trade routes, occasional CS military escorts, and limited commercial services.

Not only does the CS engage in trade with Europe, the reason why Triax can trade more successfully in recent (102 PA) years is because the CS protects them by guarding trade routes and providing military escorts.
So they're both economically capable and secure, as well as being a strong enough military that they can ensure better security for Triax Industries than they can provide for themselves (in America, anyway).

SB1 55
The black market, CS malls, some Burbs,and some of the larger Coalition and non-CS communities offer repairs for body armor and robotics. Still, availability is pretty limited. Only the most industrialized places have such facilities.

Known repair facilities in the Coalition States:
ALL the CS capital cities and major industrial communities

Outside of the CS, the list includes:
Northern Gun, Manistique Imperium, Lazlo, Tolkeen, Whykin, Kingsdale, Fort El Dorado, and the Pecos Empire.
That's it- nobody else (in the early books) had that kind of capability.
The CS (which has 5 capitals alone, and I'd wager at least as many non-capital cities that qualify as major industrial communities), and 8 places outside of the CS.
At least two of which are set to become CS allies, and one of which is set to be destroyed by the CS.

[Killer Cyborg]

Ok i have to know now lmao..

KC do you truly think the resources thath the CS have are actully not unlimited even though miltiple books would show otherwise ?

What books?
Where?
Quotes and pages, please.

[Lenwen]

Ok i have to know now lmao..

KC do you truly think the resources thath the CS have are actully not unlimited even though miltiple books would show otherwise ?

What books?
Where?
Quotes and pages, please.

You have all the quotes needed to show just how much resources the coalition has.

The fact that you still try to say they do not.. Is irony at its best.

[Killer Cyborg]

Ok i have to know now lmao..

KC do you truly think the resources thath the CS have are actully not unlimited even though miltiple books would show otherwise ?

What books?
Where?
Quotes and pages, please.

You have all the quotes needed to show just how much resources the coalition has.

The fact that you still try to say they do not.. Is irony at its best.

Okay, so what I'm getting is:
-You won't do anything to support your claim.
-You think that the resources that I listed count as "unlimited."
-You don't have a strong grasp on the meaning of "irony."

[Lenwen]

Well as it stands KC i am on my last two days of the hitch. My books are roughly 9 hds from me. Monday I will grant book and pg numbers to support my claim that the cs has stupid amounts of resources fr a post apocalyptic setting..

It has nothi tobdo with as you put it. "Wont" provide but rather everything to do with can not till works done bud.

The term irony means exacty:
Outcome contrary to expectations .

In this case, we hve two sides. One says he CS resources are beyond logically what should be or its setting as well as for its complete lack of defined resources.

The other side thinks the resources are either perfect or do not care due to it being in the favor of thier favorite power block.


I feel that every resource should at the very minimal be touched upon and explained ot at least well enough to put to rest any miss interpreting of either side.

I apologize if yu and others feel differently .

[Killer Cyborg]

Well as it stands KC i am on my last two days of the hitch. My books are roughly 9 hds from me. Monday I will grant book and pg numbers to support my claim that the cs has stupid amounts of resources fr a post apocalyptic setting..

That wasn't your claim.
Your claim was, and I quote:
the cs have literally unlimited resources bar none book an pg number be damned as all one has to do is read the books

If you want to retract that claim, I'll understand- it's an absurd claim.
But if you don't want to retract it, then support it whenever you get back.

One says he CS resources are beyond logically what should be or its setting as well as for its complete lack of defined resources.

No, one side says that the CS "have literally unlimited resources."
The other side says that they have very significant resources, and that this has been supported from the start of the Rifts game line.

The other side thinks the resources are either perfect or do not care due to it being in the favor of thier favorite power block.

See, that's the thing.
I don't like the CS. I just don't have the bug up my bottom about them that YOU seem to have.
I look at the books, and see what they say.
You ignore what the books say, for the most part, in favor of a constant stream of hatred against a fictional group of people made up of nothing other than numbers and words... while you ignore what those numbers and words actually say.
You can say that I'm biased toward the CS, but like most of your other claims, you can't actually support it because it has no basis in fact, only in your own emotion.
You hate the CS, therefore if somebody defends them in any way, if only by pointing out what the official material says, you feel like that person must be biased.

I feel that every resource should at the very minimal be touched upon and explained ot at least well enough to put to rest any miss interpreting of either side.

Well, start petitioning Kevin to write Rifts: The Mining volumes 1-20.
Personally, I'll just look at the fact that they have technology so advanced that we not only don't know the scope of it, but we don't know how or why it works, and I'll look at the fact that the CS has more land than any modern European nation, and that the land they occupy has a lot of resources on it, and I'll accept that these resources are being tapped and that they allow the CS to survive.

But while you're working on your petition, you might think about this:
You have never, ever, ever, asked the question about where Tolkeen gets its resources and technology.
You "feel that every resource should at the very minimal be touched upon and explained ot at least well enough to put to rest any miss interpreting of either side"... but only when it comes to the Coalition, because they're apparently your kryptonite or something.
You only care about the level of detail that you're demanding when it comes to the CS, not to anybody else.
Think that's because I'm biased FOR the CS?
Or maybe because it's just one symptom of your own bias?

And I know- I'll just get back some horribly-spelled, emotional rebuttal that doesn't really address the points, and that accuses me of being a CS-lover or something lame like that, but seriously, I feel the need to point out your behavior to you, just for the lotto-ticket's chance that you might seriously think about it.

[Mack]

Don't get personal.

[Killer Cyborg]

Alright; I'm fine with dropping it.

[Akashic Soldier]

I wouldn't worry Cyborg. Considering most of the the validity of their argument hinges on literacy being a key factor in making a superior field combatant it pretty much writes itself.

And of course the Gods and Alien intelligences fear them, everyone feats them, people fear groups of radical skinheads but if they're after their red laces and you throw a pantless Jew slinging propaganda at the end of an alley they're doing to walk right into that without a second thought.

Hate makes you stupid and do stupid things. You yourself said it's a disability, it's something they can't help for the most part but most importantly of it--it's something they DON'T learn from.

[Lenwen]

Alright; I'm fine with dropping it.

After ya already got personal now.. you are fine with dropping it ?

So typical of many posters on this site.

Allow me 1 question if you please?

You stated i ignore aspects of the game. Perhaps you could tell me exactly what your talking about so far as me ignoring the books in favor of my bias ?

Please. Show me what I have ignored ?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Alright; I'm fine with dropping it.

After ya already got personal now.. you are fine with dropping it ?

So typical of many posters on this site.

Allow me 1 question if you please?

You stated i ignore aspects of the game. Perhaps you could tell me exactly what your talking about so far as me ignoring the books in favor of my bias ?

Please. Show me what I have ignored ?

Why don't you answer his researched post instead of fixating on the fact he called you on your horrible spelling? (( which if you look back, has been beyond the pale.))

[Killer Cyborg]

Alright; I'm fine with dropping it.

After ya already got personal now.. you are fine with dropping it ?

You keep insisting that I'm some kind of CS super-fan- that's personal.
So, since the topic was raised, I offered my views of you.
Both were not in strict accordance with the rules of this forum, and we should both know better.

Allow me 1 question if you please?

You stated i ignore aspects of the game. Perhaps you could tell me exactly what your talking about so far as me ignoring the books in favor of my bias ?

Please. Show me what I have ignored ?

I already have pointed this out, repeatedly throughout this thread.

[Akashic Soldier]

*apprehensively raises his hand*

I am a CS Superfan.

I feel like they are the best hope humanity has of regaining control over the world and restoring order. I freely admit it would be a fascist order and that many innocent extra dimensional beings will be killed in the process along with a lot of good and bad humans but from the order the Coalition States promises Humanity can retake its world. Once the Earth is once again under completely human control (as it rightfully should be) and peace settles across the globe it is only a matter of time before a cultural revolution driven by truth and justice and equal rights for all challenges the Coalition World order. It might take a few generations but as the times change so will the people and as D-Bee's become "legal tourists" and not "invaders" certain sympathies will inevitably be fostered and at long last there will be hope for a lasting world peace under a single government.

Humanity have a right to live unmolested on their mother world. Magic and Dimensional Beings threaten the only way of life that can lead to a utopian peace and there for D-Bee's who are not willing to return to their place of origin and practitioners of magic must be eliminated.

Each day that the Coalition's conquest is postponed is another day of war and another sea of unnecessary bloodshed.

Many (even within the CS) question its edicts (such as making reading illegal) but the CS is a warmachine that protects humanity and promises a good night sleep for the families of its soldiers and loyal tax payers. In exchange all it asks is the focus of its people so they might pioneer a new future. What others see as oppression the CS sees as a bright new future free of catastrophe and disaster and though the CS march unswaggered into a thicket of blades they do so knowing that beyond the sacrifices is a better world for their children and their childrens children--and maybe even the poor bastard D-Bee's that are as much victims of the Rifts as they are.

There is a reason the CS has such a strong and willing military of able bodies. These are healthy intelligent people who have lived through the horror of Rifts Earth or noble children of some of humanities greatest heroes who first had the courage to face the eldrich flames and oppose their would-be demonic masters. They are a tradition of hope! Their ebon armor and gleaming white skulls serve as a constant reminder of the fate of those who oppose them. Blazing forward with courage against beings of near limitless power! Prepared for any outcome (for where magic is concerned there are no rules) and fighting with the ferocity of 200 years of repression! This is what it is to be a CS Soldier, this is the spirit of the Coalition!

EDIT: I ummm... I think we have a new contender for the greatest soldiers in the Megaverse. I just read about this ancient race called the Dominators... and a single member of their military/race is apparently able to well.. maybe its just best you guys read this. *hides under a rock*

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/cutt ... review.pdf

It is now generally accepted by every major power bloc that the Dominators represent one of the gravest threats the Three Galaxies have ever known. Should the Dominators organize or band together for a coordinated attack, their intended target is doomed. As it is, it would take a fleet of ships to counter the power of a single Star Fortress. TGE and CAF officers both have “unofficial” orders to fight at each other’s sides should a Dominator ship appear in their domain of space.

[Killer Cyborg]

The Dominators, luckily, aren't on Rifts Earth.
Otherwise, yeah, they'd win.

Well, them or Mulkas.

[Akashic Soldier]

The Dominators, luckily, aren't on Rifts Earth.
Otherwise, yeah, they'd win.

Well, them or Mulkas.

They scare me Cyborg. If they come nothing can stop them. Not even the super awesome CS or Triax and their "Its not a gundam" super robot packed full of glitterboys!

I thought we could seduce their slave women and then use them to get close to poison them or something but they'd just regen it . We have no chance to survive. The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is SOMEHOW getting them sucked into a Blackhole, it worked in the past and surely it would work again. Only getting them near let alone IN a blackhole is no easy task in and of itself.

Each one is a trained soldier and one of the last few (and no doubt extremely paranoid) survivors of their race. I just don't see how they can be brought down.

[Lenwen]

Sorry kc but i do not remember calling you or any one else a superfan. I remmber saying people who r cs fans.. but in no way flat out stating specifically who was

And as to the lenwen ignores the books thing you are attempting to say you have pointed out multiple times by all means please show me. .I do in fact not ignore the books no matter how much i disagree with them.

It appears your trying to make people think that but can not prove it. Even afterI ask you to prove it.

[Mack]

And since the first couple Rifts books they have fought a war with tolkeen, Free Quebec, sent a 30,000 man expedition force over seas, devoted scarce resources to the creation of a navy that was punked by FQ and would require more resources to repair not to mention all the damaged and destroyed armor, vehicles and weapons in those conflicts alone. Then there are the resources set aside to deal with the xiticix and all other activity's in the north. There is also the federation of magic. Like with the xiticx no major conflict, but skirmishes do occur. head south to the Pecos Empire who are also inflicting casualty on the CS and consuming there resources, then back to the CS Navy also consuming the limited sources from all the places in your post because sea life on rifts earth is dangerous, and hard on equipment let alone a persons body. Its war on a 360 degree front. That does not include NTST, RCSG, and ISS operations in the Burbs. After all that, leaving FQ and Tolkien as finished business, the rest are continuing conflicts. And say the resources are easy to come by, they would run short of humans to do the fighting, and would have to cut corners in training to keep soldiers in the field. Hitler and Stalin had the same problems with there soldiers.

Page 139 of Aftermath has a different conclusion.

[Mack]

And since the first couple Rifts books they have fought a war with tolkeen, Free Quebec, sent a 30,000 man expedition force over seas, devoted scarce resources to the creation of a navy that was punked by FQ and would require more resources to repair not to mention all the damaged and destroyed armor, vehicles and weapons in those conflicts alone. Then there are the resources set aside to deal with the xiticix and all other activity's in the north. There is also the federation of magic. Like with the xiticx no major conflict, but skirmishes do occur. head south to the Pecos Empire who are also inflicting casualty on the CS and consuming there resources, then back to the CS Navy also consuming the limited sources from all the places in your post because sea life on rifts earth is dangerous, and hard on equipment let alone a persons body. Its war on a 360 degree front. That does not include NTST, RCSG, and ISS operations in the Burbs. After all that, leaving FQ and Tolkien as finished business, the rest are continuing conflicts. And say the resources are easy to come by, they would run short of humans to do the fighting, and would have to cut corners in training to keep soldiers in the field. Hitler and Stalin had the same problems with there soldiers.

Page 139 of Aftermath has a different conclusion.

And that is where our group did as KS recommends. We took artistic liberty with the story line and ignored those books. We liked Tolkeen as the CS's #1 antagonist. Its not everyone's way and that's fine. I hold it against no one. But with all the action they are involved in in the 30 some books they need to be protected by the author. As another poster mentioned, this is not a bad thing. Rifts would be something else without the CS. CS characters are some of my favorite to play.

I neglected to write that I tend to agree with your assessment moreso that Aftermath's.

[Killer Cyborg]

And since the first couple Rifts books they have fought a war with tolkeen, Free Quebec, sent a 30,000 man expedition force over seas, devoted scarce resources to the creation of a navy that was punked by FQ and would require more resources to repair not to mention all the damaged and destroyed armor, vehicles and weapons in those conflicts alone.

Your claim was:
Read the main book and you will see the part about scarce resources.

I haven't.
You refused to clarify or provide any citations or other evidence to support your claim, and later you asked me to support the claim that the CS did have plenty of resources.
And I did.

Since your argument was that your initial impression from the original Rifts book was that the CS had scarce resources, I only used the original Rifts book and SB1 for my own sources.

Later books do use up some resources, but they also provide additional resources.
If you wish to go through the later books in detail, demonstrating that even though the CS started off in 101-102 PA with a hefty surplus, that their resources become significantly scarce later, I'll be happy to look over your supported argument, as well as possibly respond with a researched and informed counter-argument.

[The Galactus Kid]

In descending order I'd say; CS, NGR, Atlantis, Manoa, Silver River Republics, Russia, New Navy (they're technically sailors & marines, not soldiers), Japan (Republic and Empire).
I place the CS at the top because for their immediate area they are the best, the same for the NGR and so on down the line.

The main reason I disagree is that the NGR soldier can read.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Alright; I'm fine with dropping it.

After ya already got personal now.. you are fine with dropping it ?

So typical of many posters on this site.

Allow me 1 question if you please?

You stated i ignore aspects of the game. Perhaps you could tell me exactly what your talking about so far as me ignoring the books in favor of my bias ?

Please. Show me what I have ignored ?

Why don't you answer his researched post instead of fixating on the fact he called you on your horrible spelling? (( which if you look back, has been beyond the pale.))

Spelling and grammar nazis should take care when they correct ones spelling. Just about all those who have commented on spelling on this thread have several posts with spelling and syntax errors. Lighten up guys, none of this is worth getting hot about. Those who see it like me cool, those who dont, I agree to disagree. Marry Christmas, or Happy Holidays if you prefer.

Oh I'm usually right there with you. I tend to loathe spelling Nazi's, but the point remains. he ignored the long detailed researched posts and instead fixed on the part where the spelling (( which was beyond a few mus-spellings, and was really REALLY bad.)) as an excuse not to reply to the points and facts brought up.

It was a dodge. "Oh I can't refute that so I'll wave my hands in the air and point out the spelling thing and ignore the details and cited proof of the previous posts."

I spell badly, and often, but yeah.. I'll call that one for what it was.

[Lenwen]

And threw all the arguements no one has said word 1 about the 5 other fortress cities being built.. which a single1 should nearly bankrupt a post apocalyptic powerblock let alone building 5 all at the same time as well as waging war agaonst multiple nations..

But lets be real about t.. the cs are the bad guys an as sich get hand waving done all the time..

[Pepsi Jedi]

And in all the arguments you've yet to cite a source that backs you up Lenwen. When other people cite dozens of them.

Do you not see a problem there?

Why would going to war, alone bankrupt the CS? Check history, war is good for nations if you win. It puts the economy on war footing. Jobs increase and outpoot is increased. Those that may be jobless can find work supporting the war.

One of the main reasons for war across the ages was population pressure. Not lack of population.

And the fortress cities? Again, you're talking about thousands of jobs for those people building the cities. Who do you think will be the first people that live in the newly build supercities? Those that build them, and are insured places. Thousands if not tens of thousands of jobs will be formed by each supercity being built, those thousands if not tens of thousands of jobs will support families. And it radiates out.. The materals needed to build the cities will need to be pulled from the earth. More jobs. More people supported by the building of the super cities. Those people will need to be defended. More people in the military needed. More jobs. More support.

Public works..... huge public works... another good thing for a nation. Look at our own history. The building of the high way system. Ect.

You're looking at it as if the CS just went "Ok we're going to build some super cities. Who do we buy them from?" When it's the other way around. It's "We have people. We need to feed them and house them. How can we do that? We give them jobs. We give them money. Ok, but why/how? We have them do public works.... like building cities"

The people get the jobs, they get the money, they get to live their lives. the CS gets the cities built or their militaries manned. The CS has more than 10% of it's population in the military. That still leaves 90% that are working. They have farmers, they have textile workers, they have miners. 9 out of 10 people are non military. In the state they're in, they do have entertainment venues but I'm guessing they're a bit fewer than we enjoy.. so most of those 9 our of 10 will be working hard to support the nation in and of itself.

There is your resources. People. Gathering/producing resources. be it growing carrots, or cows, or mining the iron and clay from the earth, to sitting in factories putting laser rifles together.

[Pepsi Jedi]

And since the first couple Rifts books they have fought a war with tolkeen, Free Quebec, sent a 30,000 man expedition force over seas, devoted scarce resources to the creation of a navy that was punked by FQ and would require more resources to repair not to mention all the damaged and destroyed armor, vehicles and weapons in those conflicts alone. Then there are the resources set aside to deal with the xiticix and all other activity's in the north. There is also the federation of magic. Like with the xiticx no major conflict, but skirmishes do occur. head south to the Pecos Empire who are also inflicting casualty on the CS and consuming there resources, then back to the CS Navy also consuming the limited sources from all the places in your post because sea life on rifts earth is dangerous, and hard on equipment let alone a persons body. Its war on a 360 degree front. That does not include NTST, RCSG, and ISS operations in the Burbs. After all that, leaving FQ and Tolkien as finished business, the rest are continuing conflicts. And say the resources are easy to come by, they would run short of humans to do the fighting, and would have to cut corners in training to keep soldiers in the field. Hitler and Stalin had the same problems with there soldiers.

Page 139 of Aftermath has a different conclusion.

And that is where our group did as KS recommends. We took artistic liberty with the story line and ignored those books. We liked Tolkeen as the CS's #1 antagonist. Its not everyone's way and that's fine. I hold it against no one. But with all the action they are involved in in the 30 some books they need to be protected by the author. As another poster mentioned, this is not a bad thing. Rifts would be something else without the CS. CS characters are some of my favorite to play.

I neglected to write that I tend to agree with your assessment moreso that Aftermath's.

Thanks. The way we saw it, Rifts North America without Tolkeen would be just as empty as it would be with out the CS. I am still considering getting the books though. I am still curious, and I still like to read the books.

I don't think so. They have Lazlo and New Lazlo for the "Magical nation of good guys"

They have the Federation of Magic for the "Magic group of bad guys"

Aftermath tells us that the Fed is grouping up under central leadership.

Tolkeen didn't really have anything that Lazlo and New Lazlo didn't give, or the Federation of Magic didn't have.

[Natasha]

You've missed some conclusions. And while I find arguing fluff text to be odd, I'll toss in my two cents anyways.

Their BASIC infantry, the guy right out of boot camp, is trained to pilot tanks, hovercraft, robots and power armor.
Does this imply:
a) The CS has limited resources, and probably not a lot of tanks, hovercraft, robots, and power armor at their disposal?
or
b) The CS has enough resources to have a large enough supply of these high-tech and costly war machines that theytake the time, effort, and expense to train every single one of their grunts with the skills to use them, because they know that there are plenty of these machines to go around?

or c) really good simulators.

Let's look at the equipment list (again, for the "everyday infantry" of the CS).
Notice that the "Equipment available upon assignment" starts with "Any weapon types."
ANY weapon types.
Their basic soldier can, upon assignment, have ANY WEAPON.
This indicates that they have a sufficient stock of weapons that even high-priced and/or non-standard weapons are readily available for any of their soldiers an an as-needed basis.

This indicates that they have sufficient stock of weapons to issue to a soldier, not necessarily to every soldier in the field at the same time.

Available upon assignment is not the same thing as available upon request.

Also, note that the average grunt gets a monthly salary of 1700 Credits, along with food, clothing, and "all other basics" for free.
We know that the Credit is the equivalent of the modern US or Canadian dollar (MOPs 108), though it can't buy a lot of the same mass-produced luxuries that we enjoy today at the same rate.
But that means that the average Grunt earns roughly the equivalent of $20,400/year, plus room and board and other expenses.
The pay as of 2011 for a US military rank E-1 is $1491.00 per month.
Rank E-3 and higher can make more money than the Grunt's equivalent, but the salary listed for the Grunt starts at level one, a green recruit fresh from bootcamp.
So, overall, the CS military can afford to pay its soldiers more or less what the United States of America can pay its soldiers.
Considering that the CS's territory is composed of less than 1/3 of the area of the United States, and they don't have the same level of international trade or other infrastructure, that level of pay demonstrates that they have a remarkably high level of resources available to them for their size and limitations.

The CS doesn't have anywhere near the expenditures that the USA has today.

It's what they choose to spend their money on. Keeping the troops fat dumb and happy isn't too bad of an idea when they are the ones keeping you in power.

Rifts 53
Notice that even though every infantryman leaves boot camp with training in piloting robots, power armor, and hovercycles, the CS has specialists in that kind of piloting. They don't just wait for their Grunts to level up, THEN give them the fancy toys, they specially train elite pilots as well. Again, this indicates that they have plenty of power armor, robots, and other high-tech vehicles available.

They only need a handful of trainer units to do that, even if they don't use simulators.

Rifts 56
While there are feudal states that take advantage of MOM technology, the CS has outlawed it.
If they were in a truly tight spot, with limited resources, they would be more likely to legalize and utilize this kind of technology, creating super-soldiers to help them survive. As it is, though, they can afford the luxury of rejecting such extreme measures of survival.
Same with Juicers (p. 69): The CS not only forbids Juicer technology among its citizens, they won't even hire outside Juicer mercenaries, even for cannon fodder.

They're not desperate. Ok.

Missouri is a tactical addition of the Coalition, and is one of the weakest and most timid of the allied states.
It is a rich farmland...
The Coalition has pumped a great deal of money and resources into the develpment of Missouri, which is quickly becoming anew haven for humankind.

Yea, because there are no examples of a state overextending itself.

The Coalition States is the largest and most powerful nation in the Americas

That works, but their explanations are mostly hand-waves and sometimes rather awkward ones.

Black Market Cost: Three Million Credits

Does the CS pay what a Black Market buyer pays?

[Killer Cyborg]

And since the first couple Rifts books they have fought a war with tolkeen, Free Quebec, sent a 30,000 man expedition force over seas, devoted scarce resources to the creation of a navy that was punked by FQ and would require more resources to repair not to mention all the damaged and destroyed armor, vehicles and weapons in those conflicts alone.

Your claim was:
Read the main book and you will see the part about scarce resources.

I haven't.
You refused to clarify or provide any citations or other evidence to support your claim, and later you asked me to support the claim that the CS did have plenty of resources.
And I did.

Since your argument was that your initial impression from the original Rifts book was that the CS had scarce resources, I only used the original Rifts book and SB1 for my own sources.

Later books do use up some resources, but they also provide additional resources.
If you wish to go through the later books in detail, demonstrating that even though the CS started off in 101-102 PA with a hefty surplus, that their resources become significantly scarce later, I'll be happy to look over your supported argument, as well as possibly respond with a researched and informed counter-argument.

Not only the old main book, but RUE, and almost every book the are mentioned in after that, not to mention that man members in various other threads discussing this very same thing all over this forum.

No idea what you're trying to say here- it's not a coherent sentence.
Not only WHAT the main book?
The WHAT are mentioned in after the main book?
What's a "man member" (assuming that you're not being pornographic)?
What same thing?
What other threads?

If you can convince me that doing that for you is really that important then I might, but you are already to upset about it as is and you need a time out.

This is one of several times that you've said that I'm upset, but I'm not.
I don't particularly care that you're wrong about this, except in that somebody who similarly doesn't understand the books might take you seriously.
And I believe that I've pretty well fixed that problem by demonstrating that the CS's capabilities and resources have been well-established since the original Rifts book.

Is it "really important" that you try to defend your claim?
No.
In fact, I think that it would be rather silly to even try to do so.
But if you still take your own claim seriously, and you care whether or not anybody else does, and you think that you actually do have support from in the books, then you should have some motivation to give at least a half-way decent try at supporting your own argument.
If not, then not.

But just so we are clear, in all there actions nation wide from 101 PA to 109 PA thay have not lost but a few pieces of equipment, and taken only light human losses. got it.

That's not clear. Like the above section you wrote, it's not even really coherent.
The best I can translate it is: "In all, their actions nationwide from 101 PA to 109 PA they have lost nothing but a few pieces of equipment, and only taken light human losses."
Which I can agree with, for the most part.
So I suspect that it's not really what you're attempting to say.

[Killer Cyborg]

You've missed some conclusions. And while I find arguing fluff text to be odd, I'll toss in my two cents anyways.

Their BASIC infantry, the guy right out of boot camp, is trained to pilot tanks, hovercraft, robots and power armor.
Does this imply:
a) The CS has limited resources, and probably not a lot of tanks, hovercraft, robots, and power armor at their disposal?
or
b) The CS has enough resources to have a large enough supply of these high-tech and costly war machines that they take the time, effort, and expense to train every single one of their grunts with the skills to use them, because they know that there are plenty of these machines to go around?

or c) really good simulators.

Not sure what you're trying to say here.
Are you saying that the CS uses simulators to train people? Possibly, but I don't see the relevance.

Let's look at the equipment list (again, for the "everyday infantry" of the CS).
Notice that the "Equipment available upon assignment" starts with "Any weapon types."
ANY weapon types.
Their basic soldier can, upon assignment, have ANY WEAPON.
This indicates that they have a sufficient stock of weapons that even high-priced and/or non-standard weapons are readily available for any of their soldiers an an as-needed basis.

This indicates that they have sufficient stock of weapons to issue to a soldier, not necessarily to every soldier in the field at the same time.

Available upon assignment is not the same thing as available upon request.

Which is precisely why I said "any of their soldiers," not "every one of their soldiers."

Also, note that the average grunt gets a monthly salary of 1700 Credits, along with food, clothing, and "all other basics" for free.
We know that the Credit is the equivalent of the modern US or Canadian dollar (MOPs 108), though it can't buy a lot of the same mass-produced luxuries that we enjoy today at the same rate.
But that means that the average Grunt earns roughly the equivalent of $20,400/year, plus room and board and other expenses.
The pay as of 2011 for a US military rank E-1 is $1491.00 per month.
Rank E-3 and higher can make more money than the Grunt's equivalent, but the salary listed for the Grunt starts at level one, a green recruit fresh from bootcamp.
So, overall, the CS military can afford to pay its soldiers more or less what the United States of America can pay its soldiers.
Considering that the CS's territory is composed of less than 1/3 of the area of the United States, and they don't have the same level of international trade or other infrastructure, that level of pay demonstrates that they have a remarkably high level of resources available to them for their size and limitations.

The CS doesn't have anywhere near the expenditures that the USA has today.

It's what they choose to spend their money on. Keeping the troops fat dumb and happy isn't too bad of an idea when they are the ones keeping you in power.

They don't have our expenditures, and they don't have our resources.
I figured that was pretty clear from my post, but thanks for pointing it out for those who didn't follow.

Rifts 53
Notice that even though every infantryman leaves boot camp with training in piloting robots, power armor, and hovercycles, the CS has specialists in that kind of piloting. They don't just wait for their Grunts to level up, THEN give them the fancy toys, they specially train elite pilots as well. Again, this indicates that they have plenty of power armor, robots, and other high-tech vehicles available.

They only need a handful of trainer units to do that, even if they don't use simulators.

And?

Missouri is a tactical addition of the Coalition, and is one of the weakest and most timid of the allied states.
It is a rich farmland...
The Coalition has pumped a great deal of money and resources into the develpment of Missouri, which is quickly becoming anew haven for humankind.

Yea, because there are no examples of a state overextending itself.

Does "there are examples of x" mean, to you, "X is to be automatically assumed?"

The Coalition States is the largest and most powerful nation in the Americas

That works, but their explanations are mostly hand-waves and sometimes rather awkward ones.

If you feel that the CS is more poorly described than other nations/factions in Rifts, that their resources are more handwavious than the norm for this setting, feel free to make a case for it.

Black Market Cost: Three Million Credits

Does the CS pay what a Black Market buyer pays?

Of course not- that's why I specified "Black Market."
Logically, the CS would pay a fraction of that, but it would still be a significant number.

[Killer Cyborg]

Spelling and grammar nazis should take care when they correct ones spelling. Just about all those who have commented on spelling on this thread have several posts with spelling and syntax errors. Lighten up guys, none of this is worth getting hot about...

Oh I'm usually right there with you. I tend to loathe spelling Nazi's, but the point remains. he ignored the long detailed researched posts and instead fixed on the part where the spelling (( which was beyond a few mus-spellings, and was really REALLY bad.)) as an excuse not to reply to the points and facts brought up.

It was a dodge. "Oh I can't refute that so I'll wave my hands in the air and point out the spelling thing and ignore the details and cited proof of the previous posts."

I spell badly, and often, but yeah.. I'll call that one for what it was.

I'm not a fan of spelling and grammar Nazis either.
But a post should be able to be read without too much effort on the part of the average reader.

Any further questions about spelling and such should probably be taken to PMs, though, as this gets uncomfortably close to "getting personal," which we have already been warned about once by a Moderator.
(Including any questions that Frogboy might have about why I was unable to decipher his last post that I responded to).

[Killer Cyborg]

And threw all the arguements no one has said word 1 about the 5 other fortress cities being built.. which a single1 should nearly bankrupt a post apocalyptic powerblock let alone building 5 all at the same time as well as waging war agaonst multiple nations..

Nobody's discussed it, because nobody's tried to make that particular claim before.
If you want to make the claim now, feel free to support it in detail.

But lets be real about t.. the cs are the bad guys an as sich get hand waving done all the time..

The CS are bad guys.
That has nothing to do with handwaving.

As I already pointed out, there is even less explanation for Tolkeen's resources than for the CS's.

[Natasha]

You've missed some conclusions. And while I find arguing fluff text to be odd, I'll toss in my two cents anyways.

Their BASIC infantry, the guy right out of boot camp, is trained to pilot tanks, hovercraft, robots and power armor.
Does this imply:
a) The CS has limited resources, and probably not a lot of tanks, hovercraft, robots, and power armor at their disposal?
or
b) The CS has enough resources to have a large enough supply of these high-tech and costly war machines that they take the time, effort, and expense to train every single one of their grunts with the skills to use them, because they know that there are plenty of these machines to go around?

or c) really good simulators.

Not sure what you're trying to say here.
Are you saying that the CS uses simulators to train people? Possibly, but I don't see the relevance.

Well it's in the very first sentence of my post.

I'll point it out for those who didn't follow. You've missed some conclusions.

The relevance is that the use of simulators and trainers means that there does not need to be a large supply of these high-tech and costly war machines to use for training. That means they don't have to have "quite a lot at their disposal" as they would have to have in the second conclusion. And that means conclusion A is perfectly valid.

Let's look at the equipment list (again, for the "everyday infantry" of the CS).
Notice that the "Equipment available upon assignment" starts with "Any weapon types."
ANY weapon types.
Their basic soldier can, upon assignment, have ANY WEAPON.
This indicates that they have a sufficient stock of weapons that even high-priced and/or non-standard weapons are readily available for any of their soldiers an an as-needed basis.

This indicates that they have sufficient stock of weapons to issue to a soldier, not necessarily to every soldier in the field at the same time.

Available upon assignment is not the same thing as available upon request.

Which is precisely why I said "any of their soldiers," not "every one of their soldiers."

Which means they do not necessarily have "quite a lot at their disposal".

Also, note that the average grunt gets a monthly salary of 1700 Credits, along with food, clothing, and "all other basics" for free.
We know that the Credit is the equivalent of the modern US or Canadian dollar (MOPs 108), though it can't buy a lot of the same mass-produced luxuries that we enjoy today at the same rate.
But that means that the average Grunt earns roughly the equivalent of $20,400/year, plus room and board and other expenses.
The pay as of 2011 for a US military rank E-1 is $1491.00 per month.
Rank E-3 and higher can make more money than the Grunt's equivalent, but the salary listed for the Grunt starts at level one, a green recruit fresh from bootcamp.
So, overall, the CS military can afford to pay its soldiers more or less what the United States of America can pay its soldiers.
Considering that the CS's territory is composed of less than 1/3 of the area of the United States, and they don't have the same level of international trade or other infrastructure, that level of pay demonstrates that they have a remarkably high level of resources available to them for their size and limitations.

The CS doesn't have anywhere near the expenditures that the USA has today.

It's what they choose to spend their money on. Keeping the troops fat dumb and happy isn't too bad of an idea when they are the ones keeping you in power.

They don't have our expenditures, and they don't have our resources.
I figured that was pretty clear from my post, but thanks for pointing it out for those who didn't follow.

Which means no certain conclusions can be drawn about what is at their disposal. And, specifically, what they pay their soldiers is no indication of what is at their disposal.

Missouri is a tactical addition of the Coalition, and is one of the weakest and most timid of the allied states.
It is a rich farmland...
The Coalition has pumped a great deal of money and resources into the develpment of Missouri, which is quickly becoming anew haven for humankind.

Yea, because there are no examples of a state overextending itself.

Does "there are examples of x" mean, to you, "X is to be automatically assumed?"

Of course, not. I never said such a thing so I don't know why you think I meant that. In any case, it just means that they might not have "quite a lot at their disposal" but are instead wasting the precious little that they do have.

The Coalition States is the largest and most powerful nation in the Americas

That works, but their explanations are mostly hand-waves and sometimes rather awkward ones.

If you feel that the CS is more poorly described than other nations/factions in Rifts, that their resources are more handwavious than the norm for this setting, feel free to make a case for it.

No, I think that it's a little silly to argue economics from fluff text written by guys that did not give a hoot about economics when they made the fluff text up in their imaginations. Arguing from information completely fabricated with little or no research doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I'd love to hear why you think it does, if indeed you think it does.

Trying to shoehorn an explanation to fit the data is as far as I can see ridiculous. We may look and might even find an explanation for the observation, and that's cool and all, but it doesn't mean it's accurate.

The CS can afford what it can because the authors say it can. Human beings have perfected portable, miniaturised nuclear power plants because the authors say they did. Because it is far easier than worrying about how on Earth they extract, process, and bring nuclear and other fuel sources to market.

Black Market Cost: Three Million Credits

Does the CS pay what a Black Market buyer pays?

Of course not- that's why I specified "Black Market."
Logically, the CS would pay a fraction of that, but it would still be a significant number.

Not at all necessarily true it would still be a significant fraction of the black market cost.

[Killer Cyborg]

Any further questions about spelling and such should probably be taken to PMs, though, as this gets uncomfortably close to "getting personal," which we have already been warned about once by a Moderator.
(Including any questions that Frogboy might have about why I was unable to decipher his last post that I responded to).

Or the part where I cared.

Yes, if you have any questions about that part, you can also ask me via PM.

[Killer Cyborg]

Not sure what you're trying to say here.
Are you saying that the CS uses simulators to train people? Possibly, but I don't see the relevance.

Well it's in the very first sentence of my post.

I'll point it out for those who didn't follow. You've missed some conclusions.

I got what you were trying to do- I just didn't see any relevant conclusion from what you said there.
Hence my question.

The relevance is that the use of simulators and trainers means that there does not need to be a large supply of these high-tech and costly war machines to use for training.

Ah, okay.
I never assumed that they did, nor assumed that anybody else would.
Truth be told, the methods of training, other than spending hours of both instructor and student time, did not really enter into my thoughts when I made that post.

Which means they do not necessarily have "quite a lot at their disposal".

Which means no certain conclusions can be drawn about what is at their disposal. And, specifically, what they pay their soldiers is no indication of what is at their disposal.

How do you figure?

Yea, because there are no examples of a state overextending itself.

Does "there are examples of x" mean, to you, "X is to be automatically assumed?"

Of course, not. I never said such a thing so I don't know why you think I meant that.

Because it's best to assume the norm unless there is evidence to the contrary.
"Look for horses, not zebras," and so forth.

If you feel that the CS is more poorly described than other nations/factions in Rifts, that their resources are more handwavious than the norm for this setting, feel free to make a case for it.

No, I think that it's a little silly to argue economics from fluff text written by guys that did not give a hoot about economics when they made the fluff text up in their imaginations.

And yet... here you are.

Arguing from information completely fabricated with little or no research doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I'd love to hear why you think it does, if indeed you think it does.

Because it's all we have to go on, and it's enough to support later fabricated events
Somebody claimed that they got the impression from the original Rifts book that the CS was strapped for resources.
I pointed out the evidence that they're NOT.
It doesn't matter if it's made up- the whole setting is made up.
If the books had supported his claim, it would have made it up with similarly fabricated details with just as little research.

The CS can afford what it can because the authors say it can.

Ultimately true of every fictional everything, everywhere.
The question here is whether that kind of economic capability was there from the start, and what kind of groundwork it had.
It was, and it has as much or more groundwork as anything else in Rifts.
Which makes it an odd thing for people to complain about.

Logically, the CS would pay a fraction of that, but it would still be a significant number.

Not at all necessarily true it would still be a significant fraction of the black market cost.

No, but it would be the way to bet.
But if you want to make a well-supported case that any other scenario is likely, feel free.

[Natasha]

Which means they do not necessarily have "quite a lot at their disposal".

Which means no certain conclusions can be drawn about what is at their disposal. And, specifically, what they pay their soldiers is no indication of what is at their disposal.

How do you figure?

Does having enough equipment to issue according to assignment demonstrate that the CS has quite a lot of it at their disposal? Does it mean that they do not have quite a lot of it at their disposal? To put it another way, do they have lots of equipment just lying around or do they have to carefully control the sparse amount of equipment that they have lying around? Having it lying around for assignment doesn't demonstrate anything except that there is some equipment lying around. Does having well paid soldiers mean that they have a budget surplus or does it mean that other expenditures are suffering in order to keep the troops happy and therefore not inclined to revolt?

Yea, because there are no examples of a state overextending itself.

Does "there are examples of x" mean, to you, "X is to be automatically assumed?"

Of course, not. I never said such a thing so I don't know why you think I meant that.

Because it's best to assume the norm unless there is evidence to the contrary.
"Look for horses, not zebras," and so forth.

There was no need to assume. I stated at the outset that I was supplying other valid conclusions.

If you feel that the CS is more poorly described than other nations/factions in Rifts, that their resources are more handwavious than the norm for this setting, feel free to make a case for it.

No, I think that it's a little silly to argue economics from fluff text written by guys that did not give a hoot about economics when they made the fluff text up in their imaginations.

And yet... here you are.

And yet here I am explaining why it's silly to argue game economics.

Just like arguing game physics is silly.

Arguing from information completely fabricated with little or no research doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I'd love to hear why you think it does, if indeed you think it does.

Because it's all we have to go on, and it's enough to support later fabricated events
Somebody claimed that they got the impression from the original Rifts book that the CS was strapped for resources.
I pointed out the evidence that they're NOT.
It doesn't matter if it's made up- the whole setting is made up.
If the books had supported his claim, it would have made it up with similarly fabricated details with just as little research.

If the whole setting is made up, then that falsifies the premise that anything is predictable or works according to the frameworks we use to explain and understand real life economics (or physics or politics or whatever). If the premise is false, then we don't actually have anything to go on; we don't actually have evidence; we don't actually have any conclusions to draw or arguments to support.

The question here is whether that kind of economic capability was there from the start, and what kind of groundwork it had.
It was, and it has as much or more groundwork as anything else in Rifts.
Which makes it an odd thing for people to complain about.

I'm not complaining. I'm pointing out that there is no groundwork. It's a collection of unsuported and unresearched claims.

Asserting a claim without argument is not evidence and it is not groundwork.

Logically, the CS would pay a fraction of that, but it would still be a significant number.

Not at all necessarily true it would still be a significant fraction of the black market cost.

No, but it would be the way to bet.
But if you want to make a well-supported case that any other scenario is likely, feel free.

That's an odd question to ask somebody arguing that it is impossible to make a well-supported case one way or the other. Even if we could rely upon the same knowledge frameworks, there are too many unknowns. We do not know the supply and demand curves. We simply don't know what makes a skelebot worth 3 million to the black market. If the market is flooded with them, the price goes down. What does that say about the cost to the CS to produce them? Nothing. People might want them because they're valuable as salvage and recycled if you have the time and energy to separate out the copper, gold, and whatever else might be of value in there, such as the AI software or even the nuclear power plant. Maybe they're prized by operators because it makes it easy to turn a mountaineer into a Rifts-version of the stryker light combat vehicle. Who knows? If you want to see what I'm talking about, just try to make a well-supported argument that the scenario you purport is likely. I'm not saying it's not; I'm just saying you can't make a well-supported argument for it. Sure you can look at the price of guns, power plants, and other AIs, but how do you know that's correct? More importantly, how does it make other explanations unlikely?

[Killer Cyborg]

Does having enough equipment to issue according to assignment demonstrate that the CS has quite a lot of it at their disposal?

Yes.

Does it mean that they do not have quite a lot of it at their disposal?

No.

To put it another way, do they have lots of equipment just lying around or do they have to carefully control the sparse amount of equipment that they have lying around?

If an ordinary, first level everyday infantryman can have access to it, it's not sparse.

Does having well paid soldiers mean that they have a budget surplus or does it mean that other expenditures are suffering in order to keep the troops happy and therefore not inclined to revolt?

Barring any indication that there are other expenditures that are suffering, it means that they have a budget surplus.
Since we know that the people that the CS wants to thrive are thriving and living in relative luxury inside their walled cities, that demonstrates that they're not really running short on cash.
Yes, we might come up with any number of convoluted stories that could explain that result without them having a surplus of wealth, but there's no need to multiply entities without necessity.

I stated at the outset that I was supplying other valid conclusions.

You weren't, though. You were supplying other possible conclusions.

If you feel that the CS is more poorly described than other nations/factions in Rifts, that their resources are more handwavious than the norm for this setting, feel free to make a case for it.

No, I think that it's a little silly to argue economics from fluff text written by guys that did not give a hoot about economics when they made the fluff text up in their imaginations.

And yet... here you are.

And yet here I am explaining why it's silly to argue game economics.[/quote]

No, you are stating that it is silly to argue game economics.

Just like arguing game physics is silly.

Your opinion is noted.

Somebody claimed that they got the impression from the original Rifts book that the CS was strapped for resources.
I pointed out the evidence that they're NOT.
It doesn't matter if it's made up- the whole setting is made up.
If the books had supported his claim, it would have made it up with similarly fabricated details with just as little research.

If the whole setting is made up, then that falsifies the premise that anything is predictable or works according to the frameworks we use to explain and understand real life economics (or physics or politics or whatever).

Only if you assume that writing is random by nature, not based on anything in real life.

If the premise is false, then we don't actually have anything to go on; we don't actually have evidence; we don't actually have any conclusions to draw or arguments to support.

Which premise?
False in what sense?

The question here is whether that kind of economic capability was there from the start, and what kind of groundwork it had.
It was, and it has as much or more groundwork as anything else in Rifts.
Which makes it an odd thing for people to complain about.

I'm not complaining. I'm pointing out that there is no groundwork. It's a collection of unsuported and unresearched claims.

a) You don't know how much or how little support and research went into it.
b) In the context of the real-world, the support and research might not hold up, but in the game world, it does.
The game world need not be consistent with the real world, though it should match as much as possible in order to facilitate suspension of disbelief, only within its own context.

Asserting a claim without argument is not evidence and it is not groundwork.

Do you have an argument to support that?

Logically, the CS would pay a fraction of that, but it would still be a significant number.

Not at all necessarily true it would still be a significant fraction of the black market cost.

No, but it would be the way to bet.
But if you want to make a well-supported case that any other scenario is likely, feel free.

That's an odd question to ask somebody arguing that it is impossible to make a well-supported case one way or the other.

Well, it's an odd argument to make, so I'm in good company in oddness.

Even if we could rely upon the same knowledge frameworks, there are too many unknowns. We do not know the supply and demand curves. We simply don't know what makes a skelebot worth 3 million to the black market. If the market is flooded with them, the price goes down. What does that say about the cost to the CS to produce them? Nothing. People might want them because they're valuable as salvage and recycled if you have the time and energy to separate out the copper, gold, and whatever else might be of value in there, such as the AI software or even the nuclear power plant. Maybe they're prized by operators because it makes it easy to turn a mountaineer into a Rifts-version of the stryker light combat vehicle. Who knows? If you want to see what I'm talking about, just try to make a well-supported argument that the scenario you purport is likely. I'm not saying it's not; I'm just saying you can't make a well-supported argument for it. Sure you can look at the price of guns, power plants, and other AIs, but how do you know that's correct? More importantly, how does it make other explanations unlikely?

Again, you can make up whatever crazy scenarios you like that come to the results we see, but that doesn't make them likely or plausible.
The way to bet is that things are as they appear to be, all things being equal.

You seem to be questioning how we know that an author is correct about his own work- how we know that the black market prices are correct.
The answer is simply because the author is creator of the author's world.
The only existence that that world has is in the words of the author, therefore there is nothing to be incorrect about. The words are the world.

[Akashic Soldier]

Sorry Nat but common sense indicates that they have plenty of resources at their disposal (in regard to their soldiers). To put this in perspective a game master has the freedom to say "And then you look out over the outcrop and see one million grunts each one equipped with his full armory as available to him in character creation etc, etc" and where as that's a lot of troops in one place they have more and higher ranked guys with even better stuff.

The simple fact is if they were strained they would be sparing with what they handout and the lowest rank wouldn't have access to such badass gear, no matter how good it is. Look at how things are done in Russia. They've got great tech but only the bad asses are allowed to have it because they dont have a lot of it.

Not only does the CS have it -- they can also replace it pretty easily because they're still UPGRADING their technology level so this indicates they are still mass producing weapons systems and technologies.

It just seems logical to me that they are a wealthy country/state and considering how active they are in war compared to other RE Nations they're probably very wealthy. War is great for the economy.

[Natasha]

Does having enough equipment to issue according to assignment demonstrate that the CS has quite a lot of it at their disposal?

Yes.

And no.

Does it mean that they do not have quite a lot of it at their disposal?

No.

And yes.

To put it another way, do they have lots of equipment just lying around or do they have to carefully control the sparse amount of equipment that they have lying around?

If an ordinary, first level everyday infantryman can have access to it, it's not sparse.

Got any evidence for that?

When building an spy agency or whatever else builder they have, there are those organisations that have equipment available for assignment, but the amount is sparse.

Does having well paid soldiers mean that they have a budget surplus or does it mean that other expenditures are suffering in order to keep the troops happy and therefore not inclined to revolt?

Barring any indication that there are other expenditures that are suffering, it means that they have a budget surplus.
Since we know that the people that the CS wants to thrive are thriving and living in relative luxury inside their walled cities, that demonstrates that they're not really running short on cash.
Yes, we might come up with any number of convoluted stories that could explain that result without them having a surplus of wealth, but there's no need to multiply entities without necessity.

The same is true in places like North Korea. It's not convoluted at all, it just takes a little understanding of how the world works.

I stated at the outset that I was supplying other valid conclusions.

You weren't, though. You were supplying other possible conclusions.

All of them valid.

If you feel that the CS is more poorly described than other nations/factions in Rifts, that their resources are more handwavious than the norm for this setting, feel free to make a case for it.

No, I think that it's a little silly to argue economics from fluff text written by guys that did not give a hoot about economics when they made the fluff text up in their imaginations.

And yet... here you are.

And yet here I am explaining why it's silly to argue game economics.

No, you are stating that it is silly to argue game economics.

I made an argument, that you don't see that doesn't mean I'm simply stating it.

Somebody claimed that they got the impression from the original Rifts book that the CS was strapped for resources.
I pointed out the evidence that they're NOT.
It doesn't matter if it's made up- the whole setting is made up.
If the books had supported his claim, it would have made it up with similarly fabricated details with just as little research.

If the whole setting is made up, then that falsifies the premise that anything is predictable or works according to the frameworks we use to explain and understand real life economics (or physics or politics or whatever).

Only if you assume that writing is random by nature, not based on anything in real life.

Have you read the books?

But I'll go for a real answer. Here's the extent the CS is based on real life. There were Nazis once and the United States is powerful. The things that made and make the United States powerful do not at all explain the Coalition's power. Until the game world does so, it's just random writing.

If the premise is false, then we don't actually have anything to go on; we don't actually have evidence; we don't actually have any conclusions to draw or arguments to support.

Which premise?
False in what sense?

The question here is whether that kind of economic capability was there from the start, and what kind of groundwork it had.
It was, and it has as much or more groundwork as anything else in Rifts.
Which makes it an odd thing for people to complain about.

I'm not complaining. I'm pointing out that there is no groundwork. It's a collection of unsuported and unresearched claims.

a) You don't know how much or how little support and research went into it.
b) In the context of the real-world, the support and research might not hold up, but in the game world, it does.
The game world need not be consistent with the real world, though it should match as much as possible in order to facilitate suspension of disbelief, only within its own context.

The premise that is the foundation of knowledge frameworks: that the world is predictable. If the world doesn't fall in line with the frameworks of the real world, then nothing can be said about the ficitonal world using those frameworks.

a) I have a very good idea of how much, and it isn't a lot. Just like the other scientific aspects, this line of books was clearly not written by an economist.
b) That's great, but it struggles to hold up even the game world. Mostly due to utter lack of foundational details.
A game that is not consistent with the real world cannot use real world frameworks to describe it. But that doesn't stop you from trying.

Asserting a claim without argument is not evidence and it is not groundwork.

Do you have an argument to support that?

Evidence speaks to the truth of a claim. A claim is not evidence of itself.
A framework/groundwork is built on premises that are supported by evidence. A framework/groundwork built on claims is not a framework/groundwork.

Even if we could rely upon the same knowledge frameworks, there are too many unknowns. We do not know the supply and demand curves. We simply don't know what makes a skelebot worth 3 million to the black market. If the market is flooded with them, the price goes down. What does that say about the cost to the CS to produce them? Nothing. People might want them because they're valuable as salvage and recycled if you have the time and energy to separate out the copper, gold, and whatever else might be of value in there, such as the AI software or even the nuclear power plant. Maybe they're prized by operators because it makes it easy to turn a mountaineer into a Rifts-version of the stryker light combat vehicle. Who knows? If you want to see what I'm talking about, just try to make a well-supported argument that the scenario you purport is likely. I'm not saying it's not; I'm just saying you can't make a well-supported argument for it. Sure you can look at the price of guns, power plants, and other AIs, but how do you know that's correct? More importantly, how does it make other explanations unlikely?

Again, you can make up whatever crazy scenarios you like that come to the results we see, but that doesn't make them likely or plausible.
The way to bet is that things are as they appear to be, all things being equal.

You seem to be questioning how we know that an author is correct about his own work- how we know that the black market prices are correct.
The answer is simply because the author is creator of the author's world.
The only existence that that world has is in the words of the author, therefore there is nothing to be incorrect about. The words are the world.

It's not a crazy scenario. There is nothing that explains why a skelebot costs 3 million dollars on the black market except that is what the author says. It's simple supply and demand. There's no reason to wander off in la la land here. What a market (especially a black market) will pay for a product does not reveal anything about the production cost of the product. I'm not sure why you're having such a difficult time explaining how things appear to be, if that's the bet you're making. What is the supply and demand curve of skelebots? If we ask any simpler of a question, we aren't even talking about economics anymore. If we aren't even talking about economics anymore, well, that's even sillier than using half-assed frameworks as if they offer anything other than what the author thinks would be cool to be.

[Natasha]

Sorry Nat but common sense indicates that they have plenty of resources at their disposal (in regard to their soldiers). To put this in perspective a game master has the freedom to say "And then you look out over the outcrop and see one million grunts each one equipped with his full armory as available to him in character creation etc, etc" and where as that's a lot of troops in one place they have more and higher ranked guys with even better stuff.

The simple fact is if they were strained they would be sparing with what they handout and the lowest rank wouldn't have access to such badass gear, no matter how good it is. Look at how things are done in Russia. They've got great tech but only the bad asses are allowed to have it because they dont have a lot of it.

Not only does the CS have it -- they can also replace it pretty easily because they're still UPGRADING their technology level so this indicates they are still mass producing weapons systems and technologies.

It just seems logical to me that they are a wealthy country/state and considering how active they are in war compared to other RE Nations they're probably very wealthy. War is great for the economy.

Common sense also allows for rationing. Please keep in mind that I'm not saying they're desperate (or even that they don't have a surplus because if the author says that they do, they do). But my question is why does having something available by assignment only mean there's tons of it lying around in surplus?

Whether or not a war is good for the economy really depends upon the war and the economy and everything that was happening before the war broke out. Also, we must be careful to avoid the broken glass window fallacy. Money is a finite resource and there are not a lot of ways for a government to acquire it in order to spend it on war.

Here's the fundamental issue I have. One may draw different but valid conclusions from the same data, especially when the data is pure fluff and complete make-believe.

[Akashic Soldier]

Here's the fundamental issue I have. One may draw different but valid conclusions from the same data, especially when the data is pure fluff and complete make-believe.

This much I agree with. As for money being finite... I'm just going to say "rich as Nazi's" and let everyone else reach their own conclusions.

[Natasha]

Here's the fundamental issue I have. One may draw different but valid conclusions from the same data, especially when the data is pure fluff and complete make-believe.

This much I agree with. As for money being finite... I'm just going to say "rich as Nazi's" and let everyone else reach their own conclusions.

That's cool.

I'm sometimes garrulous, like now, so I'd just point out that the Nazis were not uber-rich. Sure there were supporters who were among Germany's richest people, the industrialists afraid of communism, but the Nazis also had slave labour to cover the lack of labour resource, and a good deal of help from foreign governments (such as the Soviet Union and Japan). The Nazis were not rich with money but they were rich with will power and organisational capabilities. You don't have to have a lot of resources to be powerful. They're not the only ones to prove it either. I hope that's not too crazy of a scenario though!

[Akashic Soldier]

Rich
As
Nazis

[Killer Cyborg]

Does having enough equipment to issue according to assignment demonstrate that the CS has quite a lot of it at their disposal?

Yes.

And no.

Only without the "no" part.

Does it mean that they do not have quite a lot of it at their disposal?

No.

And yes.

Without the "yes."

(How long do you want to do this?)

If an ordinary, first level everyday infantryman can have access to it, it's not sparse.

Got any evidence for that?[/quote]

Evidence that high-tech war machines aren't handed over to newbies instead of seasoned pilots/drivers unless there are plenty to go around?
Just common sense.

When building an spy agency or whatever else builder they have, there are those organisations that have equipment available for assignment, but the amount is sparse.

Give me a book, page number, and quote to work with, and I'll discuss it with you.

Does having well paid soldiers mean that they have a budget surplus or does it mean that other expenditures are suffering in order to keep the troops happy and therefore not inclined to revolt?

Barring any indication that there are other expenditures that are suffering, it means that they have a budget surplus.
Since we know that the people that the CS wants to thrive are thriving and living in relative luxury inside their walled cities, that demonstrates that they're not really running short on cash.
Yes, we might come up with any number of convoluted stories that could explain that result without them having a surplus of wealth, but there's no need to multiply entities without necessity.

The same is true in places like North Korea.[/quote]

Yes, you could come up with all kinds of stories about North Korea, but likewise that wouldn't make them true.
Really, the concept applies to any nation.

It's not convoluted at all, it just takes a little understanding of how the world works.

Very little.

I stated at the outset that I was supplying other valid conclusions.

You weren't, though. You were supplying other possible conclusions.

All of them valid.

Nope.

I made an argument, that you don't see that doesn't mean I'm simply stating it.

I don't waste time on invisible arguments.

Here's the extent the CS is based on real life. There were Nazis once and the United States is powerful. The things that made and make the United States powerful do not at all explain the Coalition's power. Until the game world does so, it's just random writing.

You missed a few things, like:
-The setting is based on an imaginary future of the current world.
-We know things about this world, like that the lands that the CS occupy have vast resources.

Also, if the writings were random, there would be no discernible patterns, but there are.

The premise that is the foundation of knowledge frameworks: that the world is predictable. If the world doesn't fall in line with the frameworks of the real world, then nothing can be said about the ficitonal world using those frameworks.

Untrue.
The fictional world is not entirely predictable, but that doesn't mean that nothing can be said about it.
It can be said with certainty, for example, that the CS will not turn into a giant rune banana in the next book.
It can be said that the CS will not suddenly be equipped with SDC armor and weapons instead of the stuff that they already have.
It can be said that Lazlo will not suddenly be relocated to Mexico.
It can be said that the Xiticix will still be numerous when they make their next significant appearance.
LOTS of things can be said with certainty.

a) I have a very good idea of how much, and it isn't a lot. Just like the other scientific aspects, this line of books was clearly not written by an economist.

Okay, exactly how much research was put into it?

b) That's great, but it struggles to hold up even the game world.

Source?

Mostly due to utter lack of foundational details.

I agree that there can be, and should be, more foundational details.
This does not mean that we don't have enough to form any conclusions.

A game that is not consistent with the real world cannot use real world frameworks to describe it. But that doesn't stop you from trying.

So when the game books refer to "gravity," you have no idea what they're talking about?
It doesn't describe anything to you?

Asserting a claim without argument is not evidence and it is not groundwork.

Do you have an argument to support that?

Evidence speaks to the truth of a claim. A claim is not evidence of itself.
A framework/groundwork is built on premises that are supported by evidence. A framework/groundwork built on claims is not a framework/groundwork.

Agreed on all counts, although you did not support any of those claims.

Again, you can make up whatever crazy scenarios you like that come to the results we see, but that doesn't make them likely or plausible.
The way to bet is that things are as they appear to be, all things being equal.

You seem to be questioning how we know that an author is correct about his own work- how we know that the black market prices are correct.
The answer is simply because the author is creator of the author's world.
The only existence that that world has is in the words of the author, therefore there is nothing to be incorrect about. The words are the world.

It's not a crazy scenario.

Yeah, it really, really is.

There is nothing that explains why a skelebot costs 3 million dollars on the black market except that is what the author says.

Agreed.
But we can safely assume that it's not scrap recycle value.
For one thing, the scrap prices for robots is listed, and it's a percentage of the black market value.

It's simple supply and demand. There's no reason to wander off in la la land here. What a market (especially a black market) will pay for a product does not reveal anything about the production cost of the product.

Sure it does, because it's simple supply and demand.
The cheaper and easier production, the simpler it is to meet demand, which in turn lowers price.

I'm not sure why you're having such a difficult time explaining how things appear to be, if that's the bet you're making.

I'm not sure why you think I'm having a difficult time, nor what you think that I'm explaining.

What is the supply and demand curve of skelebots? If we ask any simpler of a question, we aren't even talking about economics anymore. If we aren't even talking about economics anymore, well, that's even sillier than using half-assed frameworks as if they offer anything other than what the author thinks would be cool to be.

We're not talking about economics. We're talking about fictional economics in a fictional world.
If that's silly, then isn't it just as silly to talk about any other fictional element?
And if it is, then why are you here?

[Killer Cyborg]

my question is why does having something available by assignment only mean there's tons of it lying around in surplus?

It doesn't.
Why would you think that it does?

[Natasha]

Does having enough equipment to issue according to assignment demonstrate that the CS has quite a lot of it at their disposal?

Yes.

And no.

Only without the "no" part.

Does it mean that they do not have quite a lot of it at their disposal?

No.

And yes.

Without the "yes."

(How long do you want to do this?)

Well I go on holidays at the end of the week, but I figure we'll be done before then.

There simply are multiple valid conclusions from the data.

So a soldier trained to use high-technology isn't going to be issued high-technology for an assignment. That's not common sense.

We are talking about a setting is based on an imaginary future that lacks groundwork. If we are to fall back on the current world when imaginary details are missing or need explanation, little makes sense when using that framework. Having land with resources in them doesn't mean you know how to extract them, process them, use them, or even that those resources are going to be industrially useful.

Also, if the writings were random, there would be no discernible patterns, but there are.

Random writing is a discernible pattern.

The premise that is the foundation of knowledge frameworks: that the world is predictable. If the world doesn't fall in line with the frameworks of the real world, then nothing can be said about the ficitonal world using those frameworks.

Untrue.
The fictional world is not entirely predictable, but that doesn't mean that nothing can be said about it.
It can be said with certainty, for example, that the CS will not turn into a giant rune banana in the next book.
It can be said that the CS will not suddenly be equipped with SDC armor and weapons instead of the stuff that they already have.
It can be said that Lazlo will not suddenly be relocated to Mexico.
It can be said that the Xiticix will still be numerous when they make their next significant appearance.
LOTS of things can be said with certainty.

Lazlo could probably get rifted to Mexico, thus relocated. Nevertheless, none of these assertions require a knowledge framework. Discussing what resources the CS has and how it is able to use them, however, does require a knowledge framework.

I did not say I know exactly how much research didn't go into the game. I said I have a good idea and it is not alot of research.

Mostly due to utter lack of foundational details.

I agree that there can be, and should be, more foundational details.
This does not mean that we don't have enough to form any conclusions.

This does not mean that we don't have more than one valid conclusion either.

Asserting a claim without argument is not evidence and it is not groundwork.

Do you have an argument to support that?

Evidence speaks to the truth of a claim. A claim is not evidence of itself.
A framework/groundwork is built on premises that are supported by evidence. A framework/groundwork built on claims is not a framework/groundwork.

Agreed on all counts, although you did not support any of those claims.

I assumed you knew the meaning of the words used.

Evidence
Claim
Framework

It's simple supply and demand. There's no reason to wander off in la la land here. What a market (especially a black market) will pay for a product does not reveal anything about the production cost of the product.

Sure it does, because it's simple supply and demand.
The cheaper and easier production, the simpler it is to meet demand, which in turn lowers price.

Except that the CS does not meet the demand of the Black Market. The CS tries to curtail the demand of the Black Market. It will try to prevent the Black Market's supply side but it cannot curtail production because its own demand side. You are simply and completely wrong.

I'm not sure why you're having such a difficult time explaining how things appear to be, if that's the bet you're making.

I'm not sure why you think I'm having a difficult time, nor what you think that I'm explaining.

My bad. The explanations are just so wrong that I mistook them for something else.

What is the supply and demand curve of skelebots? If we ask any simpler of a question, we aren't even talking about economics anymore. If we aren't even talking about economics anymore, well, that's even sillier than using half-assed frameworks as if they offer anything other than what the author thinks would be cool to be.

We're not talking about economics. We're talking about fictional economics in a fictional world.
If that's silly, then isn't it just as silly to talk about any other fictional element?
And if it is, then why are you here?

It's not silly to talk about fictional elements. It's silly to argue from incomplete data as if it were complete. You said yourself it needs more detail but then you try to claim that you have enough detail to draw the one and only valid conclusion. That is what is silly.