Top militaries soilder for soilder wise .. your opinions ?

[Killer Cyborg]

There simply are multiple valid conclusions from the data.

Yes.
But only one logical conclusion.

So a soldier trained to use high-technology isn't going to be issued high-technology for an assignment. That's not common sense.

No idea what you're saying here.

We are talking about a setting is based on an imaginary future that lacks groundwork. If we are to fall back on the current world when imaginary details are missing or need explanation, little makes sense when using that framework.

We are talking about a setting that is based in an imaginary future that has incomplete groundwork.
This does not mean that there is not enough information to work with.

Having land with resources in them doesn't mean you know how to extract them, process them, use them, or even that those resources are going to be industrially useful.

But when dealing with a futuristic society whose technology surpasses our own by a considerable degree, it's the way to bet.
Especially since the alternative is to assume that they got all their high-tech toys essentially out of nowhere.

Basically, there are two assumptions you can make.
You can assume that the CS has the technology to utilize the resources available, and that this is how they support themselves
OR
You can assume that even though the CH has the resources available, and they have the things that could theoretically be created using the resources, that the CS can NOT utilize the resources.

The first assumption makes sense.
The second does not.

Also, if the writings were random, there would be no discernible patterns, but there are.

Random writing is a discernible pattern.

It is a pattern that is discernibly not present.

The premise that is the foundation of knowledge frameworks: that the world is predictable. If the world doesn't fall in line with the frameworks of the real world, then nothing can be said about the ficitonal world using those frameworks.

Untrue.
The fictional world is not entirely predictable, but that doesn't mean that nothing can be said about it.
It can be said with certainty, for example, that the CS will not turn into a giant rune banana in the next book.
It can be said that the CS will not suddenly be equipped with SDC armor and weapons instead of the stuff that they already have.
It can be said that Lazlo will not suddenly be relocated to Mexico.
It can be said that the Xiticix will still be numerous when they make their next significant appearance.
LOTS of things can be said with certainty.

Lazlo could probably get rifted to Mexico, thus relocated.

It could.
But it won't.

Nevertheless, none of these assertions require a knowledge framework. Discussing what resources the CS has and how it is able to use them, however, does require a knowledge framework.

How are you defining "knowledge framework" here?

I did not say I know exactly how much research didn't go into the game. I said I have a good idea and it is not alot of research.

Okay, then give me your best idea how much.
Just a ballpark figure in minutes.

Mostly due to utter lack of foundational details.

I agree that there can be, and should be, more foundational details.
This does not mean that we don't have enough to form any conclusions.

This does not mean that we don't have more than one valid conclusion either.

I'll allow that there hypothetically might be other valid conclusions.
But we haven't heard any yet.

Besides, the other side of this discussion is rooted in an assumption that the conclusions are NOT valid- that no matter how you add it up, the CS doesn't have enough resources or ability to do the things that it does.

I assumed you knew the meaning of the words used.

And I did.
Otherwise, I couldn't really agree about them.

It's simple supply and demand. There's no reason to wander off in la la land here. What a market (especially a black market) will pay for a product does not reveal anything about the production cost of the product.

Sure it does, because it's simple supply and demand.
The cheaper and easier production, the simpler it is to meet demand, which in turn lowers price.

Except that the CS does not meet the demand of the Black Market. The CS tries to curtail the demand of the Black Market. It will try to prevent the Black Market's supply side but it cannot curtail production because its own demand side.

The cost of skelebots, though, matches the equivalent non-CS robot that is legal and/or away from CS territory in North America.
So we know that the CS's attempts to keep their merchandise away from the black market is not a significant factor.

What is the supply and demand curve of skelebots? If we ask any simpler of a question, we aren't even talking about economics anymore. If we aren't even talking about economics anymore, well, that's even sillier than using half-assed frameworks as if they offer anything other than what the author thinks would be cool to be.

We're not talking about economics. We're talking about fictional economics in a fictional world.
If that's silly, then isn't it just as silly to talk about any other fictional element?
And if it is, then why are you here?

It's not silly to talk about fictional elements. It's silly to argue from incomplete data as if it were complete. You said yourself it needs more detail but then you try to claim that you have enough detail to draw the one and only valid conclusion. That is what is silly.

I'll clarify for you:
The fictional world in general needs more detail.
The conversation at hand does not.

[Natasha]

There simply are multiple valid conclusions from the data.

Yes.
But only one logical conclusion.

Your opinion is noted.

So a soldier trained to use high-technology isn't going to be issued high-technology for an assignment. That's not common sense.

No idea what you're saying here.

Evidently.

Having land with resources in them doesn't mean you know how to extract them, process them, use them, or even that those resources are going to be industrially useful.

But when dealing with a futuristic society whose technology surpasses our own by a considerable degree, it's the way to bet.
Especially since the alternative is to assume that they got all their high-tech toys essentially out of nowhere.

Or they got it from somewhere we just haven't discovered. Or they found a way to use materials in ways we haven't figured out (you might have heard of M.D.C.) Yet another valid logical conclusion different from the ones you present. Too bad we don't have enough information to come to just one valid logical conclusion.

I'm not saying they don't have resources. I'm just saying it isn't explained what resources they have and how much. Sometimes a little bit can go a long way. Sometimes it cannot. Which one describes the CS's resources? You don't know.

Also, if the writings were random, there would be no discernible patterns, but there are.

Random writing is a discernible pattern.

It is a pattern that is discernibly not present.

Sure they are.

Nevertheless, none of these assertions require a knowledge framework. Discussing what resources the CS has and how it is able to use them, however, does require a knowledge framework.

How are you defining "knowledge framework" here?

The fundamental and elementary details of the technology. See above. We don't know if they have a lot, a little, or somewhere in the middle. There is no obvious answer. In a high-tech world a lot can be done with a little, that's one of the points of high-tech (nanotech, miniaturisation, and so forth). But we just don't know. It can go either way.

I did not say I know exactly how much research didn't go into the game. I said I have a good idea and it is not alot of research.

Okay, then give me your best idea how much.
Just a ballpark figure in minutes.

A few hours to look up how much **** costs today and then fudge the number to whatever sounds cool.

Mostly due to utter lack of foundational details.

I agree that there can be, and should be, more foundational details.
This does not mean that we don't have enough to form any conclusions.

This does not mean that we don't have more than one valid conclusion either.

I'll allow that there hypothetically might be other valid conclusions.
But we haven't heard any yet.

We? You have something in your pocket?

I've explained them. You've yet to falsify my premises. The problem isn't on this end.

Besides, the other side of this discussion is rooted in an assumption that the conclusions are NOT valid- that no matter how you add it up, the CS doesn't have enough resources or ability to do the things that it does.

That's not what I'm saying. Why not respond to the things I say and not the things I don't?

As for adding things up it's just not possible one way or the other because there isn't enough information. But I've said that already. A few times.

It's simple supply and demand. There's no reason to wander off in la la land here. What a market (especially a black market) will pay for a product does not reveal anything about the production cost of the product.

Sure it does, because it's simple supply and demand.
The cheaper and easier production, the simpler it is to meet demand, which in turn lowers price.

Except that the CS does not meet the demand of the Black Market. The CS tries to curtail the demand of the Black Market. It will try to prevent the Black Market's supply side but it cannot curtail production because its own demand side.

The cost of skelebots, though, matches the equivalent non-CS robot that is legal and/or away from CS territory in North America.
So we know that the CS's attempts to keep their merchandise away from the black market is not a significant factor.

That still does not say anything about the cost to the CS to product its skelebots (or for the other manufacturers to produce theirs). It just means there are comparable products on the market at a comparable price. It does not mean that the production cost is a significant fraction of sale cost. It just means that is the price the market will bear for the product.
You're still wrong. Keep trying though.

Also, aren't all costs listed in Black Market cost in Rifts?

I'll clarify for you:
The fictional world in general needs more detail.
The conversation at hand does not.

And that's why it's silly.

[Killer Cyborg]

Your opinion is noted.

Good- that's the first step.

Having land with resources in them doesn't mean you know how to extract them, process them, use them, or even that those resources are going to be industrially useful.

But when dealing with a futuristic society whose technology surpasses our own by a considerable degree, it's the way to bet.
Especially since the alternative is to assume that they got all their high-tech toys essentially out of nowhere.

Or they got it from somewhere we just haven't discovered.

Nah. The books make it clear that the CS builds their own toys.

Or they found a way to use materials in ways we haven't figured out (you might have heard of M.D.C.)

Right.
You should remember that I hypothesized that they could turn coal into plastics, and mentioned that plastics were one of the three main MDC materials in Rifts, along with ceramics, which come from clay, which the CS has sources of.
So that more supports my position than denies anything about it.

I'm not saying they don't have resources. I'm just saying it isn't explained what resources they have and how much.

We know some of the resources they have, and we know they have a lot.
That's all we need for this discussion.

Sometimes a little bit can go a long way. Sometimes it cannot. Which one describes the CS's resources? You don't know.

Obviously they have enough of whatever it takes to make MDC toys.

Also, if the writings were random, there would be no discernible patterns, but there are.

Random writing is a discernible pattern.

It is a pattern that is discernibly not present.

Sure they are.[/quote]

Where exactly?

The fundamental and elementary details of the technology. See above. We don't know if they have a lot, a little, or somewhere in the middle. There is no obvious answer. In a high-tech world a lot can be done with a little, that's one of the points of high-tech (nanotech, miniaturisation, and so forth). But we just don't know. It can go either way.

No, it can't, because one way would lead to the results we see, and the other wouldn't.
In the equation 2+x=4, you can try to argue that X could be any number, since it's an unknown, but we all know that it's really 2.
Because that's what it would take to reach the end result that we see.

A few hours to look up how much **** costs today and then fudge the number to whatever sounds cool.

Alrighty- your guess is noted.

Mostly due to utter lack of foundational details.

I agree that there can be, and should be, more foundational details.
This does not mean that we don't have enough to form any conclusions.

This does not mean that we don't have more than one valid conclusion either.

I'll allow that there hypothetically might be other valid conclusions.
But we haven't heard any yet.

We? You have something in your pocket?

I've explained them.

Not so much.

You've yet to falsify my premises.

In what sense?

The problem isn't on this end.

That you think that is part of the problem on that end.

Besides, the other side of this discussion is rooted in an assumption that the conclusions are NOT valid- that no matter how you add it up, the CS doesn't have enough resources or ability to do the things that it does.

That's not what I'm saying.

Never said it was.

Why not respond to the things I say and not the things I don't?

Because the things that you say have a context, and the context here is that there are people claiming that the the conclusions are NOT valid- that no matter how you add it up, the CS doesn't have enough resources or ability to do the things that it does.
I make the opposing claim, and support it.
You then attempt to disagree with me, even though you and I both know that the conclusion is already in the books.
The CS has the toys.
The CS makes the toys.
The CS has the raw materials most likely needed for those toys.

You can make up whatever stories you like in which the CS obtained the toys through means completely unrelated to the fact that they have the materials, but there's no logical reason to believe that those alternatives would be correct.

The cost of skelebots, though, matches the equivalent non-CS robot that is legal and/or away from CS territory in North America.
So we know that the CS's attempts to keep their merchandise away from the black market is not a significant factor.

That still does not say anything about the cost to the CS to product its skelebots (or for the other manufacturers to produce theirs). It just means there are comparable products on the market at a comparable price.

And why would the prices be comparable for similar products, if not due to comparable costs and demands?

Also, aren't all costs listed in Black Market cost in Rifts?

Yes.
Which, if you ask me, is rather silly.

But that doesn't change the fact that recycling a robot for a small fraction of it's cost is not something that would be a strong incentive for people to demand them for recycle.

I'll clarify for you:
The fictional world in general needs more detail.
The conversation at hand does not.

And that's why it's silly.

I agree that it's silly that the conversation has gone on so long, when we have all the information necessary to form a conclusion, and I have already provided both information and conclusion.

[Natasha]

Your opinion is noted.

Good- that's the first step.

Indeed. It's just your opinion. Remember that.

Or they got it from somewhere we just haven't discovered.

Nah. The books make it clear that the CS builds their own toys.

I didn't say they didn't or that they got it from somewhere outside the CS, did I?

Or they found a way to use materials in ways we haven't figured out (you might have heard of M.D.C.)

Right.
You should remember that I hypothesized that they could turn coal into plastics, and mentioned that plastics were one of the three main MDC materials in Rifts, along with ceramics, which come from clay, which the CS has sources of.
So that more supports my position than denies anything about it.

Great, one retrofit! A bazillion more to go.

We know some of the resources they have, and we know they have a lot.
That's all we need for this discussion.

Coal and mud. I guess they make e-clips out of that, too.

No, it can't, because one way would lead to the results we see, and the other wouldn't.
In the equation 2+x=4, you can try to argue that X could be any number, since it's an unknown, but we all know that it's really 2.
Because that's what it would take to reach the end result that we see.

You're assuming that there is only one unknown and you're assuming that you know the equation. Plucking things arbitrarily out of the air that fit your mental map of the universe isn't support for claims that your mental map of the universe is the only logical and valid one.

You've yet to falsify my premises.

In what sense?

In the sense that you haven't shown them to be false.

Why not respond to the things I say and not the things I don't?

Because the things that you say have a context, and the context here is that there are people claiming that the the conclusions are NOT valid- that no matter how you add it up, the CS doesn't have enough resources or ability to do the things that it does.
I make the opposing claim, and support it.

Great! Now try opposing my claim in the context I provided.

You can make up whatever stories you like in which the CS obtained the toys through means completely unrelated to the fact that they have the materials, but there's no logical reason to believe that those alternatives would be correct.

What I said was they do not necessarily have massive surplus of equipment or resources. The fluff text says some stuff from which multiple logical and valid conclusions can be drawn.

The cost of skelebots, though, matches the equivalent non-CS robot that is legal and/or away from CS territory in North America.
So we know that the CS's attempts to keep their merchandise away from the black market is not a significant factor.

That still does not say anything about the cost to the CS to product its skelebots (or for the other manufacturers to produce theirs). It just means there are comparable products on the market at a comparable price.

And why would the prices be comparable for similar products, if not due to comparable costs and demands?

If we produce too many we drive down the market price or if we produce too few we drive up the market price. But our product cost remains the same. So if it costs you 2 million and it costs me 1 million to produce, then I'm better at it than you are because the market will pay 3 million for one. But we cannot divine our production costs from that 3 million market price.

But that doesn't change the fact that recycling a robot for a small fraction of it's cost is not something that would be a strong incentive for people to demand them for recycle.

That was an example. A demonstration that nowhere does it say why people by skelebots. Presumably it's for assault but in a mad max world there are plenty of plausible other reasons besides an assault bot that by itself is probably not worth the investment. Bla bla bla.

I agree that it's silly that the conversation has gone on so long, when we have all the information necessary to form a conclusion, and I have already provided both information and conclusion.

To form A conclusion. Not the ONLY conclusion.

Do something to demonstrate the other conclusions I have presented are not logical and invalid. Just stop saying they are. Stop lumping them in withe someone else's conclusions that I've already told you I'm not talking about.

[Killer Cyborg]

The books make it clear that the CS builds their own toys.

I didn't say they didn't or that they got it from somewhere outside the CS, did I?

You didn't say much of anything tangible.

We know some of the resources they have, and we know they have a lot.
That's all we need for this discussion.

Coal and mud. I guess they make e-clips out of that, too.

I guess you missed the parts about the metal mines?

You're assuming that there is only one unknown and you're assuming that you know the equation.

Yup.

Plucking things arbitrarily out of the air that fit your mental map of the universe isn't support for claims that your mental map of the universe is the only logical and valid one.

Agreed.
Which is why I pulled support out of the books that demonstrates that the CS has plenty of resources.

You've yet to falsify my premises.

In what sense?

In the sense that you haven't shown them to be false.

Thank you for clarifying.
Which ones specifically do you feel have not been shown to be false?
Restate them, if you please.

Now try opposing my claim in the context I provided.

Already done.
You have claimed that there were things that I missed.
I have pointed out that there were not any significant things missed.

You can make up whatever stories you like in which the CS obtained the toys through means completely unrelated to the fact that they have the materials, but there's no logical reason to believe that those alternatives would be correct.

What I said was they do not necessarily have massive surplus of equipment or resources. The fluff text says some stuff from which multiple logical and valid conclusions can be drawn.

Like?

And why would the prices be comparable for similar products, if not due to comparable costs and demands?

If we produce too many we drive down the market price or if we produce too few we drive up the market price. But our product cost remains the same. So if it costs you 2 million and it costs me 1 million to produce, then I'm better at it than you are because the market will pay 3 million for one. But we cannot divine our production costs from that 3 million market price.

We can divine that the costs are comparable.
Besides, the costs of building robots is in SB1.

But that doesn't change the fact that recycling a robot for a small fraction of it's cost is not something that would be a strong incentive for people to demand them for recycle.

That was an example.

Yes, and it's an example of at least one alternate theory that simply does not work.
If you come up with an alternate theory that does work, please run it by me.

A demonstration that nowhere does it say why people by skelebots. Presumably it's for assault but in a mad max world there are plenty of plausible other reasons besides an assault bot that by itself is probably not worth the investment. Bla bla bla.

Like...?

Do something to demonstrate the other conclusions I have presented are not logical and invalid. Just stop saying they are.

Do something to demonstrate that the other conclusions you have presented ARE logical and valid. Stop just saying that they are.

Stop lumping them in withe someone else's conclusions that I've already told you I'm not talking about.

[/quote]

Your conclusions are inherently lumped in with theirs- you're arguing against the notion that the CS has sufficient resources to achieve the things that they have according to the books, as are the people you're lumped in with.
There are some slight differences in vector, but the thrust is the same.

[Natasha]

We know some of the resources they have, and we know they have a lot.
That's all we need for this discussion.

Coal and mud. I guess they make e-clips out of that, too.

I guess you missed the parts about the metal mines?

Oh it's the metal that gives e-clips all that electrical potential.

You're assuming that there is only one unknown and you're assuming that you know the equation.

Yup.

Plucking things arbitrarily out of the air that fit your mental map of the universe isn't support for claims that your mental map of the universe is the only logical and valid one.

Agreed.
Which is why I pulled support out of the books that demonstrates that the CS has plenty of resources.

Assumptions are things assumed to be true. Some day, you should perhaps support them and maybe they will be supported claims. Pointing out your opinion that other conclusions were not missed is not supporting the claim that other conclusions were not missed. It's just an opinion, and ultimately means nothing.

Nothing you quoted from the books demonstrate anything. They simply state something. You repeated claims, claims that have nothing to support them but more claims.

And why would the prices be comparable for similar products, if not due to comparable costs and demands?

If we produce too many we drive down the market price or if we produce too few we drive up the market price. But our product cost remains the same. So if it costs you 2 million and it costs me 1 million to produce, then I'm better at it than you are because the market will pay 3 million for one. But we cannot divine our production costs from that 3 million market price.

We can divine that the costs are comparable.
Besides, the costs of building robots is in SB1.

It was an illustration. It could as well be all terrain vehicles, motorcycles, guns, and everything else. And yes the costs are comparable. That still doesn't mean you know what the market will pay. You have know what the production costs are to make a comparison to the market price. Since there are no unknowns in that equation, it's elementary. But all those costs are in Black Market credits. The notion that there is enough information remains at odds with the actual amount of information available.

Nevertheless, subject changes aside, your original assertion remains wrong.

But that doesn't change the fact that recycling a robot for a small fraction of it's cost is not something that would be a strong incentive for people to demand them for recycle.

That was an example.

Yes, and it's an example of at least one alternate theory that simply does not work.
If you come up with an alternate theory that does work, please run it by me.

Why doesn't work? There is nothing in the make believe fluff text that says it doesn't. It's just the limits of your imagination that says it doesn't work. There is every reason to believe that where you are in the world makes a difference in regards to supply, demand, and, therefore, price. None of this is thought out by the author, none of this is written down and explained. There's no framework upon which these numbers are built. All prices are Black Market prices; we don't even know what it costs legally or even necessarily where they can bought legally. You're arguing from your opinion.

A demonstration that nowhere does it say why people by skelebots. Presumably it's for assault but in a mad max world there are plenty of plausible other reasons besides an assault bot that by itself is probably not worth the investment. Bla bla bla.

Like...?

Like using the AI in another vehicle for a faster assault vehicle. Like repurposing them for scientific exploration and experimentation. Like repurposing them for medical use. Like repurposing them for work with, in, or around hazmat. That's what we have imaginations for.

Do something to demonstrate the other conclusions I have presented are not logical and invalid. Just stop saying they are.

Do something to demonstrate that the other conclusions you have presented ARE logical and valid. Stop just saying that they are.

I asked you first.

Besides, I already did. You simply dismissed them without so much as a counterpoint. Just a "no you didn't" which is bunk.

Stop lumping them in withe someone else's conclusions that I've already told you I'm not talking about.

Your conclusions are inherently lumped in with theirs- you're arguing against the notion that the CS has sufficient resources to achieve the things that they have according to the books, as are the people you're lumped in with.
There are some slight differences in vector, but the thrust is the same.

********.
I am arguing that the CS does not necessarily have "quite a lot at their disposal", as in tons of surplus high tech miliary war machines lying around in warehouses collecting dust because they are so many of them. I am arguing that they can still have everything need without having "quite a lot at their disposal". I am even arguing that they can have what they need without having enough, if the will power and organisational capabilities are there. These conclusions work in real life and there is absolutely no reason to believe these don't work in make believe la la land. You keep saying I haven't supported a claim, but it's evident that you haven't followed the bouncing ball even a little. You can't even state my premises or conclusions.

[Natasha]

Handwavium (HW) is one resource they do have in infinite supply. With just a small dosage of it, everything you just said becomes evidence that they have more than they know what to do with. Behold the power of handwavium. Madness? This is Rifts!

[Lenwen]

The real problem with kc's explanation is twofold from what i can see.

1)- the golden age of man. For all we know all the key resources very logically could have been used up. No way to know with any certainty one way or the other.

2)- everything of his explanation depenxs on the coalitions being Ble to create resource hunting tools. (Something they have no clue about)

Palladium has done that for archie. He has bots specifically designed to find locate and exploit resource rich deposits.

The coalition does not and has had no information 1 way or the other about it.

in this case absence of proof is the crux upon whichthe cs's resources fall apart since palladium has clearly shown how other powers get their resources ...

[Lenwen]

The whole argument of their tech is higher then ours does not justify them having the type of resources they have if they don't hAve resource finders and the tech to pull it from the earth.

Just because their technology is high in this area does not mean by default their entire level of tech is equally high across the board. That's just not how it works.

[Nightmask]

The whole argument of their tech is higher then ours does not justify them having the type of resources they have if they don't hAve resource finders and the tech to pull it from the earth.

Just because their technology is high in this area does not mean by default their entire level of tech is equally high across the board. That's just not how it works.

It's also quite off-topic at this point, since how much handwavium powers the CS doesn't go with this thread which is about who has the best military on a per-man basis, other than where handwavium might be skewing things in the favor of the CS where for its given available resources (using resources to mean people and their gear as opposed to actual pre-production materials).

[Killer Cyborg]

We know some of the resources they have, and we know they have a lot.
That's all we need for this discussion.

Coal and mud. I guess they make e-clips out of that, too.

I guess you missed the parts about the metal mines?

Oh it's the metal that gives e-clips all that electrical potential.

I'm guessing there's metal in there somewhere, for wires and such.
Do you know how they're made?
Probably not.

So we can assume one of two things:
a) They're made from the many resources the CS has available.
b) They're made from something not available to the CS.

Only one of these options makes sense.

Assumptions are things assumed to be true. Some day, you should perhaps support them and maybe they will be supported claims.

What exactly do you feel is unsupported at this point?

Nothing you quoted from the books demonstrate anything. They simply state something. You repeated claims, claims that have nothing to support them but more claims.

When an author makes a statement about the gameworld, that demonstrates that it is true.
Describing a fictional world IS creating that world.
If Kevin says something is there, then it's there.
In this case, it's set on Earth, so there's other stuff that we know is there as well (unless Kevin specifically over-rides reality with his description).

It could as well be all terrain vehicles, motorcycles, guns, and everything else. And yes the costs are comparable. That still doesn't mean you know what the market will pay. You have know what the production costs are to make a comparison to the market price. Since there are no unknowns in that equation, it's elementary. But all those costs are in Black Market credits. The notion that there is enough information remains at odds with the actual amount of information available.

Enough information for what, exactly?
We can't come up with a complete list of costs and supplies and such, but we can get the gist.
It's obvious that Skelebots aren't made for 1 credit, and it's obvious that they're not made for 100 credits, or 1,000, or 10,000 credits.
In order for skelebots to be as limited in number as they are, and in order for them to be as costly as they are, and to keep their black market prices competitive with other similar products, it's safe to assume that the productions costs are a significant percentage of the black market price.

But that doesn't change the fact that recycling a robot for a small fraction of it's cost is not something that would be a strong incentive for people to demand them for recycle.

That was an example.

Yes, and it's an example of at least one alternate theory that simply does not work.
If you come up with an alternate theory that does work, please run it by me.

Why doesn't work? There is nothing in the make believe fluff text that says it doesn't. It's just the limits of your imagination that says it doesn't work.

Hey, if you think that it works to buy something at full price in order to scrap it for a small percentage of what it cost you in the first place, have fun with that business plan.
I guess I'm too limited by my lack of imagination to see the potential in it, but if you think it'll work, go buy a new car, take it to the scrapyard and scrap it out for cash, and reinvest in a new car.
Repeat until you're wealthy.
Let me know how it works out for you.

there are plenty of plausible other reasons besides an assault bot that by itself is probably not worth the investment. Bla bla bla.

Like...?

Like using the AI in another vehicle for a faster assault vehicle.

Right.
That's probably it. The high cost is likely due to the large numbers of people using the skelebots for something that's never shown anywhere in the books.
That's the ticket.

Like repurposing them for scientific exploration and experimentation. Like repurposing them for medical use. Like repurposing them for work with, in, or around hazmat.

lol
You haven't even read up on Rifts robots, have you?

Do something to demonstrate the other conclusions I have presented are not logical and invalid. Just stop saying they are.

Do something to demonstrate that the other conclusions you have presented ARE logical and valid. Stop just saying that they are.

I asked you first.

Besides, I already did. You simply dismissed them without so much as a counterpoint. Just a "no you didn't" which is bunk.

See, that's how I feel about your interactions.
You've got nothing to bring to the table except for unsupported denials.
When two people reach that point in a conversation, it's a good time to either step back and restate positions, or to walk away from the conversation.

I am arguing that the CS does not necessarily have "quite a lot at their disposal", as in tons of surplus high tech miliary war machines lying around in warehouses collecting dust because they are so many of them.

Why on Earth would you assume that "quite a lot at their disposal" means "tons of surplus high-tech military war machines lying around in warehouses collecting dust!?

I am arguing that they can still have everything need without having "quite a lot at their disposal".

Considering your bizarre definition of that term, I'd say I have to agree.

I am even arguing that they can have what they need without having enough, if the will power and organisational capabilities are there. These conclusions work in real life and there is absolutely no reason to believe these don't work in make believe la la land.

To clarify:
You are arguing that the CS can have what they need without having enough resources to provide what they need?
And you consider that to be "real life" kind of thing, not "la la land?"

You keep saying I haven't supported a claim, but it's evident that you haven't followed the bouncing ball even a little. You can't even state my premises or conclusions.

Apparently, neither can you.
If you started off by saying that you thought that "quite a lot at their disposal" meant "warehouses full of dusty, unused war machines," we could have had a different conversation.
Probably shorter, too.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Take a look at the map on page 336 of the game master guide. Lets look at the war with Quebec. Th get there, the CS had to cross hundreds on miles of enemy territory to whoop up on another equally powerful enemy. It was notes that the CS got spanked on the lakes, and we can assume that if they marched a force any where near the magic zone they would be attacked by the nasty's that dwell there not to mention the toll that rough country and Murphy would have. I can see the hippies in Lazlo not pestering them, but unless protected by the author they are fair game to all who want to play. Yet they prevail.

Air. Lift. Capacity.

You loadup a couple of Death's Head Transports. Fly them the relitivly short distance. They can go 670mph.... so you fly them up there. You blast out an LZ and you disembark troops to form your beachhead. They dig in and hold it. Then you ferry your army up there in short order. It's a short flight from the CS power base to get there.

then there are the forays into the magic zone. even if they were little six man teams, there would be bunches of six man teams with bases to operate from, and to store there equipment and all that. More opportunity to be attacked by those who hate then in the magic zone, and the consumption of precious resources.

6 man teams are just a drop in the ocean when you have "Millions" in your military. Nor do 6 man teams have bases to operate from in the MZ. They're long range patrols. They gear up. Go out. Come back. Or they get resupply dropped in, in the field.

Mantisque, and Northern Gun are cut off by FQ. Oh. they did not do that in the FQ book ? Hm. It would be stupid not to shut those down. Must have been protected by the author.

You act as if they couldn't fly. They're technological powers in NA. They can fly across the lakes or take a left and go over land down through WI. You know.. pretty much straight down over land to the CS state of Chi Town? FQ is actually a distance from the UP. Pick up a map. That'd be a hell of a power reach to try and blockaded them. Iron Heart is between NG and FQ. So unless FQ was going to take out an entire CS state....... to blockade an independent nation.. Oh wait.. That's just stupid.

There are also the Simvan who love tho slap up on the CS. More resources consumed.

They do, when they have the ability. They're not morons. They're nnot going to take on entire armies. They're roving bands of animal riding cannibals. They take out small units if they can. Not the nation as a whole. That's like going "Oh the gangs in LA hate the cops. So they attack them all the time" Um... No...?

And the Tolkeen conflict that consumed TONS of resources, just in the amount of destroyed skelibots, and at the same time they send 30,000 men and there weapons, ammo, vehicles, and support personnel on an extremely dangerous overseas mission and again they come out on top.

Because you are having a hard time counting to 'MILLIONS OF TROOPS'.

Did they lose a ton of resources in Tolkeen? yes. Did that deplete their forces? No. Read aftermath. Most of the troop losses in Tolkeen were green recruits that signed up from the burbs and stuff. Not the "Seasoned military". I.E. just before they went to war, they scooped up people out of the burbs, put them through basic and poured them into the tolkeen Conflict.... supped up MDC armor wearing cannon fodder. It's right there in rifts Aftermath. They lost 405,000 troops. out of MILLIONS. Not a small number. Don't get me wrong, but it's a percentage of the whole.

To quote Rifts aftermath, page 139.

"More over, enemies of the Coalition States mistakenly beleive the Coalition is weak and vulnerable, it's army spent and too spread out, especially as the CS begins to face the new challenge of the Xiticix. However, they are wrong. More than 60% that perished in both wars (( Tolkeen and FQ)) were volunteers from the 'burbs and rural communities of the CS whom are seen as un-official, expendable, second hand citizens. Patroitic souls who, since the Sorcerers Revenge and the Coalition's Triumph over tolkeen have been rusing to join the army in droves"

So.... direct quote from the book, says you're wrong.

Thats just the north and east. I dont care how much plastic you can make out of coal you still have to move it around in territory full of enemy's who want to annihilate the CS. That does not even take into consideration threats from the south. Not that the threats from the south could overthrow the CS, but they would cause the CS to use up valuable resources. just like the others.

They have a high speed rail system. They have flight capability. They have ________________MILLIONS________________ of troops. The sources you're citing do exist. they are pests.. but they're mosquitoes biting the dog and getting their little tummies full of blood, IF they're not slapped and killed. They don't kill the dog. They just annoy it and make it itch now and then.

You posted how many toys the CS started with. Thats all. And the grunts get 4 eclips not 8. The CS is an integral point of the Rifts game. They are necessarily protected by writer fiat. Period. The day the CS is no more is the day the last world book is published.

I don't discount that. They are protected, (( same as everyone else is.)) You, just like many others, refuse to look at the entire picture to see that it's not 'as much' fiat as you're claiming.

[Killer Cyborg]

Take a look at the map on page 336 of the game master guide. Lets look at the war with Quebec. Th get there, the CS had to cross hundreds on miles of enemy territory to whoop up on another equally powerful enemy. It was notes that the CS got spanked on the lakes, and we can assume that if they marched a force any where near the magic zone they would be attacked by the nasty's that dwell there not to mention the toll that rough country and Murphy would have. I can see the hippies in Lazlo not pestering them, but unless protected by the author they are fair game to all who want to play. Yet they prevail.

Did anybody want to play with them?
Probably not.

then there are the forays into the magic zone. even if they were little six man teams, there would be bunches of six man teams with bases to operate from, and to store there equipment and all that. More opportunity to be attacked by those who hate then in the magic zone, and the consumption of precious resources.

And they are attacked sometimes, and they die sometimes.
Other times, they kill the attackers.
From what you're saying here, I'm guessing that you think the US could never have held a presence in Afghanistan or Vietnam either?

Mantisque, and Northern Gun are cut off by FQ. Oh. they did not do that in the FQ book ? Hm. It would be stupid not to shut those down. Must have been protected by the author.

Not "protected" as much as "ignored" or "overlooked."
As has been said many, many times, the strategies used by all sides of the Tolkeen War often made little to no real sense.
Which is why that war doesn't illustrate anything other than a lack of martial knowledge and writing ability on the part of the authors.

There are also the Simvan who love tho slap up on the CS. More resources consumed.

Where? How many Simvan? How many resources consumed?
Show your work.
Support your claims.

And the Tolkeen conflict that consumed TONS of resources, just in the amount of destroyed skelibots, and at the same time they send 30,000 men and there weapons, ammo, vehicles, and support personnel on an extremely dangerous overseas mission and again they come out on top.

Apparently the skelebots don't count, since we apparently don't have any idea what it takes to make them.
From Natasha's argument, they could be cranked out at a rate of 100 bots per 1 credit, for all we know.
Heck, by her argument, the CS could recycle the skelebot graveyard at a profit.

Thats just the north and east. I dont care how much plastic you can make out of coal you still have to move it around in territory full of enemy's who want to annihilate the CS.

See, that's the thing.
What "territory full of enemies?"
Give me some numbers and regions.
Research what you're talking about.

That does not even take into consideration threats from the south. Not that the threats from the south could overthrow the CS, but they would cause the CS to use up valuable resources. just like the others.

Could.
But they're not really doing so, are they?

You posted how many toys the CS started with. Thats all.

And their resources.
And why did I do this?
Because your claimed that reading the original Rifts book led you to believe that the CS was strapped for resources, and I demonstrated that you had no reason to believe that.
I can (as I have before) provide you with a direct quote of what you said, if you for some reason don't remember.
If you want to move on to address other issues and other books, that's cool.
Do some research and build an informed case.

And the grunts get 4 eclips not 8.

This is the kind of basic lack of understanding that demonstrates a very, very strong lack of attention and understanding.
Without even grabbing my book, I already know not only that you're wrong, but also why.
But just in case, I'll grab my book to verify....

Yup.
There it is:
Rifts, p. 52
energy rifle and energy sidearm of choice, four extra e-clips for each...

2 guns, with 4 extra e-clips for each.
Energy Rifle = 4 extra e-clips
Energy Pistol = 4 extra e-clips
That's 8 extra e-clips total:
4 + 4 = 8

And while demonstrating that kind of lack of understanding and attention to detail, you expect people to take your word that things don't add up when it comes to the CS's resources vs. their losses?

[Pepsi Jedi]

The real problem with kc's explanation is twofold from what i can see.

1)- the golden age of man. For all we know all the key resources very logically could have been used up. No way to know with any certainty one way or the other.

You'd think that if all the resources were used, it wouldn't be that golden an age. I suspect with their ventures into space during the time they started mining there, leaving the earth to heal for abit. Makes sense. But as you say we don't "KNOW" that. We do know that the CS has a mining and manufacturing base (( base as in bottom of structure, not base as in military base)) So there must be something left.

2)- everything of his explanation depenxs on the coalitions being Ble to create resource hunting tools. (Something they have no clue about)

Why would they have no clue about it?

Palladium has done that for archie. He has bots specifically designed to find locate and exploit resource rich deposits.

The coalition does not and has had no information 1 way or the other about it.

in this case absence of proof is the crux upon whichthe cs's resources fall apart since palladium has clearly shown how other powers get their resources ...

They do though. They just don't harp on it. They have teams out doing that exact thing. How do we know? One of those teams found the Lone Star complex. That's how we know... they not only have the teams out doing that exact thing but they ranged so far out that they found the Lone Star Complex, underground in the middle of nowhere, Texas, Pretty far from the CS heart of power in Illinois.

[Killer Cyborg]

The real problem with kc's explanation is twofold from what i can see.

1)- the golden age of man. For all we know all the key resources very logically could have been used up. No way to know with any certainty one way or the other.

Okay, what you say is true- those resources might have been used up, although it seems unlikely.
But, again, we have no reason to assume that.
There are resources there now that will not disappear on their own in the next several hundred years.
The CS has a lot of stuff that would require a lot of resources to build.

We can look at the facts we have and deduce that the CS most likely is using the resources that, for all we know, are still there, and things make sense.
OR
We can look at the facts that we have now, make up possible explanations for why those resources wouldn't actually be able to be used, then complain that the CS doesn't have enough resources to do the things that it does.

The first option is a classic example of Occam's Razor, a basic tool of logic.
The second option is a classic example of going out of your way to complicate things in such a way that they no longer make sense, then complaining about the fact that they don't make sense.

Also, while we're on the subject, while the Golden Age may possibly have used up all the natural resources we're aware of now, they may well have also come up with the technology to utilize new resources in new ways.
For all we know, the Golden Age might have used up all the coal in Illinois.... but for all we know, they might have discovered a way to turn pine tar into MDC plastics. They might have found a way to efficiently extract iron from soil and plants. They might have flown asteroids down to Earth, plunked them in the heartland, and left them there to be mined for resources, ending up with even more resources in the CS territory than we have today.
Best case scenario, your point here leads to a situation in which we do NOT know what resources the CS has... which negates your theory that they don't have enough resources to support their size and strength.

2)- everything of his explanation depenxs on the coalitions being Ble to create resource hunting tools. (Something they have no clue about)

Cite your source that the CS has no clue about creating resource-hunting tools.
Book, page, and quote, please.

Palladium has done that for archie. He has bots specifically designed to find locate and exploit resource rich deposits.

Perhaps.
Has Palladium done that for Tolkeen?
The Pecos Bandits?
Wilk's?
Anybody else?

The coalition does not and has had no information 1 way or the other about it.

Please try to find someplace in the books that states, or even indicates, that.

in this case absence of proof is the crux upon whichthe cs's resources fall apart since palladium has clearly shown how other powers get their resources ...

Really?
Which ones?
How do they do it?

[Killer Cyborg]

Furthermore, Lenwen, I have to ask you this:
IF, in one of the CS books, there were described some resource-hunting bots or personnel comparable to what has been done for Archie, are you really saying that you'd drop your entire claim about the CS lack of resources?

[Lenwen]

Pepsi and Kc a high level of technology for the military does not translate as a high technology for resources extraction or production. The two are neither inclusive of each other nor are they tied to each by any means at all.

Pepsi you say the coalition has millions of troops yet have not cited book nor of number to back up your claim. All the while screaming at others for what you fail to produce as well.. show me in any book that states the coalition has millions of troops please. Book and of number please.


KC I have already shown that Archie does in fact have entire resource finding divisions of boys. His networks so extensive he even buys resources to stockpile for decades ahead.

Why do you keep asking me what powers show thier setup. If I clearly stated Archie.

I will give up this debate only once palladium decides to put into detail as they hAve for Archie the resources from which they draw their seemingly unlimited amounts of resources.

[Natasha]

Assumptions are things assumed to be true. Some day, you should perhaps support them and maybe they will be supported claims.

What exactly do you feel is unsupported at this point?

The one that guarantees the CS has "quite a lot at their disposal". So far you've supported that they have resources, and you just keep trying to kick that whale down the beach, but nothing beyond your opinion has supported that they have "quite a lot at their disposal", in which they just have more equipment lying around than they know what to do with so they just go ahead and train every grunt that comes through intake and on top of that they are so flush with cash that they can afford to pay their soldiers quite handsomely and on top of which they can afford to be inefficient in their production (something to consider in the cost of a skeleton, there is always the chance that it costs the CS more than 3 million to produce one). I'm sorry you're getting up on silly phrases like "collecting dust".

I am arguing that the CS does not necessarily have "quite a lot at their disposal", as in tons of surplus high tech miliary war machines lying around in warehouses collecting dust because they are so many of them.

Why on Earth would you assume that "quite a lot at their disposal" means "tons of surplus high-tech military war machines lying around in warehouses collecting dust!?

They are supposed to have enough of this ultra-expensive stuff and the money to train every single soldier in using them and assign to them for any given mission. That seems to me to having everything readily available means that no matter where you are stationed, you can get it, and that means every single base loaded to the gills or damn near one that is doubly loaded. These ultra-expensive things, you tell me, are not cost-effective, so they are inefficient, so they are throwing money away. Or you have to wait for it to arrive, so a few days before you exfiltrate the equipment arrives and it returns to inventory when you return to base. Which one makes the most sense? They make equal sense to me. So which one is it? Both? How the hell do we know? It's never described anywhere. What's the safest bet? No way of knowing, really. Just have to choose one.

In order for skelebots to be as limited in number as they are, and in order for them to be as costly as they are, and to keep their black market prices competitive with other similar products, it's safe to assume that the productions costs are a significant percentage of the black market price.

The CS does not care about the skelebot's black market price so it is not trying to keep it competitive. There is no safe assumption at all, especially when we factor in the CS is inefficient. Are the others just as inefficient? Doesn't matter, really. And that's ignoring other factors like depreciation, battle damage, and so forth.

But that doesn't change the fact that recycling a robot for a small fraction of it's cost is not something that would be a strong incentive for people to demand them for recycle.

That was an example.

Yes, and it's an example of at least one alternate theory that simply does not work.
If you come up with an alternate theory that does work, please run it by me.

Why doesn't work? There is nothing in the make believe fluff text that says it doesn't. It's just the limits of your imagination that says it doesn't work.

Hey, if you think that it works to buy something at full price in order to scrap it for a small percentage of what it cost you in the first place, have fun with that business plan.
I guess I'm too limited by my lack of imagination to see the potential in it, but if you think it'll work, go buy a new car, take it to the scrapyard and scrap it out for cash, and reinvest in a new car.
Repeat until you're wealthy.
Let me know how it works out for you.

When did I say it was a get-rich scheme? Do you know all the components of a skelebot or a hovercycle or a mountaineer atv and how they are built? Probably not. The lack of detail leaves it open as to what is or is not valuable Rifts technology.

Like repurposing them for scientific exploration and experimentation. Like repurposing them for medical use. Like repurposing them for work with, in, or around hazmat.

lol
You haven't even read up on Rifts robots, have you?

It's been a great many years. But like I said, it doesn't have to be a skelebot. It could be any piece of repurposeable tech. An Operator does a lot of things that are never shown anywhere in the books. So do Vagabonds and Techno Wizards and any other PC controlled by an imagination. Sometimes buying something that has more than you want or need is the way to go if that something is already well researched and developed and/or you can't readily acquire it any other way. There would have to be some very electronics components in a skelebot that you might not be able to get anywhere else on the continent because the CS controls the production secrets and the distribution channels. I suppose that's not in any of the books too so I'm gonna love hearing what kind of snide remark you have to say about it.

You've got nothing to bring to the table except for unsupported denials.

You just claim that I'm being illogical with my support and conclusions, that your opinions backed up by regurgitated fluff text are the only logical and valid conclusions. For instance, you don't see any use in a piece of technology beyond its designed purpose, so any other purpose suggested you claim is illogical. Or that the CS doesn't even have to own a lot of uber-tech to train soldiers because simulators can do it instead, but for some unknown as yet unexplained reason that's invalid and illogical, too.

Basically, whatever I bring to the table, you shoot down if it doesn't compute in your mental map of the universe without so much as a counterpoint. Well you do make up crap like "well it's not in the book, so nobody is going to do it" but that's not a counterpoint.

I am even arguing that they can have what they need without having enough, if the will power and organisational capabilities are there. These conclusions work in real life and there is absolutely no reason to believe these don't work in make believe la la land.

To clarify:
You are arguing that the CS can have what they need without having enough resources to provide what they need?
And you consider that to be "real life" kind of thing, not "la la land?"

While some might argue that the Nazis and Soviets lived in la la land, they did more than what they had to do it with. That's a bit hyperbolic, but not by much. What a strong will and an iron fist can accomplish would apparently astonish you.

[Dustin Fireblade]

The real problem with kc's explanation is twofold from what i can see.

1)- the golden age of man. For all we know all the key resources very logically could have been used up. No way to know with any certainty one way or the other.

2)- everything of his explanation depenxs on the coalitions being Ble to create resource hunting tools. (Something they have no clue about)

Palladium has done that for archie. He has bots specifically designed to find locate and exploit resource rich deposits.

The coalition does not and has had no information 1 way or the other about it.

in this case absence of proof is the crux upon whichthe cs's resources fall apart since palladium has clearly shown how other powers get their resources ...

The Coalition Expeditionary Force goes out and finds resources. pg 40 CWC.

[Killer Cyborg]

Pepsi and Kc a high level of technology for the military does not translate as a high technology for resources extraction or production. The two are neither inclusive of each other nor are they tied to each by any means at all.

Actually, high military technology is often derived from technology from other areas, and vice-versa.

But more to the point, there's no reason to assume that the CS doesn't have high technology across the board.
In fact, there are plenty of reasons to believe the opposite.

So you're choosing to make an unfounded assumption that does not make sense with the setting, then complaining that the setting itself does not make sense in conjunction with your unfounded assumption.

Pepsi you say the coalition has millions of troops yet have not cited book nor of number to back up your claim.

Probably because I already covered that earlier in this thread.
Have you forgotten already?

KC I have already shown that Archie does in fact have entire resource finding divisions of boys. His networks so extensive he even buys resources to stockpile for decades ahead.

Actually, what you have done is to refer to Archie having robots.
That's not "showing" anybody anything.
To SHOW us what you're referring to, you'd have to quote the book(s).

Why do you keep asking me what powers show thier setup. If I clearly stated Archie.

Is that your answer, then?
That the entire list of powers that show their underlying setup and where they get their resources from consists of:
1. Archie.

I will give up this debate only once palladium decides to put into detail as they hAve for Archie the resources from which they draw their seemingly unlimited amounts of resources.

So what you're saying is that IF Palladium puts out the same level of detail for resource gathering/detection for the CS that they have done for Archie, then you'll drop the subject permanently?

[Killer Cyborg]

Assumptions are things assumed to be true. Some day, you should perhaps support them and maybe they will be supported claims.

What exactly do you feel is unsupported at this point?

The one that guarantees the CS has "quite a lot at their disposal".

As mentioned, your definition of the term seems to be drastically different from my own, so I can understand why you would feel confused there.

So far you've supported that they have resources, and you just keep trying to kick that whale down the beach, but nothing beyond your opinion has supported that they have "quite a lot at their disposal", in which they just have more equipment lying around than they know what to do with so they just go ahead and train every grunt that comes through intake and on top of that they are so flush with cash that they can afford to pay their soldiers quite handsomely and on top of which they can afford to be inefficient in their production (something to consider in the cost of a skeleton, there is always the chance that it costs the CS more than 3 million to produce one). I'm sorry you're getting up on silly phrases like "collecting dust".

It's not just that phrase- it's your entire hallucination of what my point has been.
All I've said is that the CS has enough resources to support their existing army, and the stuff that it does in later books, that this is established early on.
I never said that they have "more equipment lying around than they know what to do with."
I don't recall saying that their production is inefficient, only that they are obviously not operating on a low budget where they're strapped for resources.

Why on Earth would you assume that "quite a lot at their disposal" means "tons of surplus high-tech military war machines lying around in warehouses collecting dust!?

They are supposed to have enough of this ultra-expensive stuff and the money to train every single soldier in using them and assign to them for any given mission.

Not exactly.
They have enough of these expensive machines and the money to train every single soldier to use them, and to assign these machines for certain missions where the machines are deemed necessary.
The fact that every grunt has this training indicates that such missions are common enough to warrant the training, not that every soldier can expect to get a SAMAS assigned to him for "any given mission."

These ultra-expensive things, you tell me, are not cost-effective, so they are inefficient, so they are throwing money away.

Not exactly.
The return on their money has diminishing returns after a certain point.
The cheapest weapon for power armor and any nuclear-powered combat vehicle would be to have lasers or other energy weapons installed, as these weapons have effectively unlimited ammunition.
This is not always the best option, though- there are advantages to missiles and railguns.
The issue is that if you're on a tight budget, you can't afford to buy the better weapons as a rule.
The CS, on the other hand, can and does.

In order for skelebots to be as limited in number as they are, and in order for them to be as costly as they are, and to keep their black market prices competitive with other similar products, it's safe to assume that the productions costs are a significant percentage of the black market price.

The CS does not care about the skelebot's black market price so it is not trying to keep it competitive.

They don't have to care about the black-market price.
The black market price cares about them.

Tell you what- how about you read up on skelebots and other robots, get a better feel for the pricing and interaction with the econonomics of Rifts Earth, then get back to me?

Hey, if you think that it works to buy something at full price in order to scrap it for a small percentage of what it cost you in the first place, have fun with that business plan.
I guess I'm too limited by my lack of imagination to see the potential in it, but if you think it'll work, go buy a new car, take it to the scrapyard and scrap it out for cash, and reinvest in a new car.
Repeat until you're wealthy.
Let me know how it works out for you.

When did I say it was a get-rich scheme?

You didn't. You said that it could work.
So okay, we'll compromise.
Do it once, and let me know how it works out for you.

Do you know all the components of a skelebot or a hovercycle or a mountaineer atv and how they are built? Probably not. The lack of detail leaves it open as to what is or is not valuable Rifts technology.

The rules covering salvage resale do not.

You haven't even read up on Rifts robots, have you?

It's been a great many years.

Maybe brush up on things before you wade into the fray.

But like I said, it doesn't have to be a skelebot. It could be any piece of repurposeable tech.

Not really- we're talking about skelebots specifically, because they're a demonstration of the resources that the CS has available.

[/quote]There would have to be some very electronics components in a skelebot that you might not be able to get anywhere else on the continent because the CS controls the production secrets and the distribution channels.[/quote]

Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise.
In fact, the conclusion doesn't even really make sense.
"There would have to be some very (?) electronics components in a skelebot that you might not be able to get anywhere else on the continent?"

you don't see any use in a piece of technology beyond its designed purpose,

Sure I do.
It just doesn't factor into the discussion.
People aren't spending 3 million credits on a black market Skelebot in order to turn it into a bidet, at least not in any numbers that would affect the price.

Or that the CS doesn't even have to own a lot of uber-tech to train soldiers because simulators can do it instead,

I already addressed this one- you're the only one here who assumed that they would need to use SAMAS to train SAMAS pilots.
It was never in my argument.
If you get tired of punching that straw man, let me know.

Basically, whatever I bring to the table, you shoot down if it doesn't compute in your mental map of the universe without so much as a counterpoint. Well you do make up crap like "well it's not in the book, so nobody is going to do it" but that's not a counterpoint.

Support your claim.
Give a precise exchange where you think this was an issue.

To clarify:
You are arguing that the CS can have what they need without having enough resources to provide what they need?
And you consider that to be "real life" kind of thing, not "la la land?"

While some might argue that the Nazis and Soviets lived in la la land, they did more than what they had to do it with. That's a bit hyperbolic, but not by much. What a strong will and an iron fist can accomplish would apparently astonish you.

Actually, I think I can see what you mean there, but it's not what we're talking about.
The Nazis and Soviets accomplished a lot with what little resources they had, even running into debt in the process when they over-extended themselves.
But they did NOT obtain their arms or technology through handwavium, without any basis on their established resources and technology.
It's apples and oranges.
Nobody here is claiming that the CS can't be doing a lot with a little- the claim I'm making is that they are doing the possible with what they have.
Lenwen and company are complaining that what the CS is doing is impossible based on what they have.

[Lenwen]

Kc and Pepsi.

Please cite your sources that quote the book and pg number showing the coaition has millions of troops.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Pepsi and Kc a high level of technology for the military does not translate as a high technology for resources extraction or production. The two are neither inclusive of each other nor are they tied to each by any means at all.

Pepsi you say the coalition has millions of troops yet have not cited book nor of number to back up your claim. All the while screaming at others for what you fail to produce as well.. show me in any book that states the coalition has millions of troops please. Book and of number please.

I find it uproariously funny you're demanding book and number when you almost never.. even after multiple demands... ever.... give the same.. but ok.

Just to show I'm not above it.

CS war Campaign Page 35 goes into the manufacturing base to support the army. it states that Chi Town alone 1.2 million people in factories and facilities alone to support the military. (( more details there about how the entire CS is built up to support their massive military. Again, CS War Campaign, page 35 and on))

As to the numbers.

CS War Campaign, page 88 "The Strength of Coalition forces comes not only from their powerful war machines and high technology, but from the spirit and commitment of it's MILLIONS of fierce, fanatical soldiers and brilliant officers, who embody the fighting spirit of the Coalition States."

Black and white. MILLIONS of fierce fanatical soldiers and brilliant officers. Millions. Plural. As in more than one. Could just be 2 million, but it's still MILLIONS.

KC I have already shown that Archie does in fact have entire resource finding divisions of boys. His networks so extensive he even buys resources to stockpile for decades ahead.

Why do you keep asking me what powers show thier setup. If I clearly stated Archie.

I will give up this debate only once palladium decides to put into detail as they hAve for Archie the resources from which they draw their seemingly unlimited amounts of resources.

Read though the CS war campaign. It goes into some detail about all the manufacturing and stuff to support the army. Ironheart being large in that but it goes deeper.

[Killer Cyborg]

Kc and Pepsi.

Please cite your sources that quote the book and pg number showing the coaition has millions of troops.

I already did.
You already discussed it with me.

Are you going on record as saying that you still believe that the CS does NOT have millions of troops?

[Lenwen]

Kc the fact that palladium has gone threw and actually showed how Archie gets all his resources shows that with out. Question they are willing to do so when it's required wanted or needed. so the fact that that have shows that the cs does not have the sMe level of resource gathering as Archie yet they have more resources? Does not compute..

[Lenwen]

Kc and Pepsi.

Please cite your sources that quote the book and pg number showing the coaition has millions of troops.

I already did.
You already discussed it with me.

Are you going on record as saying that you still believe that the CS does NOT have millions of troops?

If you quoted a book and page number perhaps I missed it. It's not to hard for you to provide said book and said page number again please.

[Killer Cyborg]

Kc the fact that palladium has gone threw and actually showed how Archie gets all his resources shows that with out.

lol
Where to start....
1. Palladium may have shown it, but YOU haven't. You haven't shown us where Palladium says this. You've referred to it, but that's all.
You expect us to give your off-hand reference significant weight, but if I said "Palladium has gone through and actually shown us how the Coalition gets all their resources," would you just accept that statement as proof of anything?
Or would you perhaps request politely that I let you know when, where, and how Palladium has done this?
Perhaps by quoting relevant passages, along with pointing out the books and page numbers?
2. No, they haven't. They have explained how he gets some of his resources, but not ALL of them. Not nearly. They haven't even said what ALL of his resources are.

Question they are willing to do so when it's required wanted or needed. so the fact that that have shows that the cs does not have the sMe level of resource gathering as Archie yet they have more resources? Does not compute..

IF they haven't gone into as much detail with the CS as Archie, that doesn't mean that the CS has less resources or abilities.
It means that the CS has less known resources and resource-gathering abilities.
You're trying to claim that an unknown quantity is automatically lesser than a known quantity.

Also, you're still just talking about Archie.
What about Tolkeen?
What about the Pecos Bandits?
What about Dweomer?
What about Wilk's?
What about all the rest of Rifts Earth that are not either Archie or the CS?

[Killer Cyborg]

Kc and Pepsi.

Please cite your sources that quote the book and pg number showing the coaition has millions of troops.

I already did.
You already discussed it with me.

Are you going on record as saying that you still believe that the CS does NOT have millions of troops?

If you quoted a book and page number perhaps I missed it.

Perhaps.
In which case you should read back through this thread and find it.

It's not to hard for you to provide said book and said page number again please.

It's not. Not at all.
All I'd have to do is use the search engine for this website, search for posts that Killer Cyborg has made, with the key words "Coalition" and "millions," and I could find the previous discussion I had with you on this subject.
It'd take less than 5 minutes for me.
But since it didn't have any effect the last time I presented this information to you, why don't YOU do some of the work this time...?

Edit:
And while we're at it, how about some indication that this information would alter your views in any degree?
Something like, "If the CS really DOES have millions of troops, then I seriously underestimated their size and numbers, and this information changes my image of them. If they have that many troops, then it makes sense how they're able to secure the land that they have, and how they're able to wage war on the kind of scale that we've seen."...?
Something like that?
Some kind of consequence for being relentlessly incorrect while insisting that everybody else is wrong...?

[Pepsi Jedi]

What? No, "I'm sorry Pepsi Jedi, you were right"? Awwww. I'm hurt.

[Lenwen]

Kc I will accept that as evidence that no where in the books does it state the coalition as having millions of troops. Ty for your time.

[Killer Cyborg]

Kc I will accept that as evidence that no where in the books does it state the coalition as having millions of troops. Ty for your time.

Okay, so you should have no problem going on the record as clearly stating:
"I, Lenwen, do not believe that the Coalition has millions of troops."

Yes?
You can say that honestly and without fear of being wrong?

If so, PLEASE do so.
IF not, then quit bluffing.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Kc I will accept that as evidence that no where in the books does it state the coalition as having millions of troops. Ty for your time.

I showed you the evidence, cited book and page.

[Killer Cyborg]

Kc I will accept that as evidence that no where in the books does it state the coalition as having millions of troops. Ty for your time.

I showed you the evidence, cited book and page.

Aw, that's no fun.
Make him commit first.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Lol I think it might have been missed towards the bottom of the last page.

[Natasha]

It's not just that phrase- it's your entire hallucination of what my point has been.
All I've said is that the CS has enough resources to support their existing army, and the stuff that it does in later books, that this is established early on.
I never said that they have "more equipment lying around than they know what to do with."
I don't recall saying that their production is inefficient, only that they are obviously not operating on a low budget where they're strapped for resources.

I know what your point is. I never once argued against it. You are confusing another logical and valid conclusion as an argument against your logical and valid conclusion. It wasn't that and it still isn't that. I don't know why you continue to insist that I'm doing things I'm not doing.

In order for my conclusion to be logical and valid it must be possible that the CS doesn't have a massive surplus of cash and equipment. Since you insist that my conclusion isn't logical and valid, I asked you to support your assertion. You just keep going back to the fact that the book says they have resources, when that isn't even the issue. The issue is: why do you insist my conclusion is illogical and invalid?

Also note that these are not the most cost-effective combat vehicles that the CS could have created.

Which was followed by a number of reasons why the CS production philosophy doesn't embrace efficiencies. There is no reason to assume that they're efficiently producting skelebots and inefficiently producing everything else.

In order for skelebots to be as limited in number as they are, and in order for them to be as costly as they are, and to keep their black market prices competitive with other similar products, it's safe to assume that the productions costs are a significant percentage of the black market price.

The CS does not care about the skelebot's black market price so it is not trying to keep it competitive.

They don't have to care about the black-market price.
The black market price cares about them.

Tell you what- how about you read up on skelebots and other robots, get a better feel for the pricing and interaction with the econonomics of Rifts Earth, then get back to me?

That doesn't make any sense. The Black Market price does not care about skelebots. There is no need to read up on bots. The original assertion was that the black market price for skelebots gives an idea of how much it costs the CS to produce a skelebot. It doesn't. If you think it does, feel free to make a case with book and page numbers to support it.

Hey, if you think that it works to buy something at full price in order to scrap it for a small percentage of what it cost you in the first place, have fun with that business plan.
I guess I'm too limited by my lack of imagination to see the potential in it, but if you think it'll work, go buy a new car, take it to the scrapyard and scrap it out for cash, and reinvest in a new car.
Repeat until you're wealthy.
Let me know how it works out for you.

When did I say it was a get-rich scheme?

You didn't. You said that it could work.
So okay, we'll compromise.
Do it once, and let me know how it works out for you.

It worked out very well. The robot and all the afradium inside of it was everything that I wanted and needed. I up armoured a car. I built a home security system. I re-engineered the software and now in possession of valuable CS state secrets. I do not have to bother with shopping for rare electronic components for years to come. I fixed the hydraulics in the wings on my custom made UAV. And I don't really want to spend any more time than the 1 minute I've already spent on this.

Do you know all the components of a skelebot or a hovercycle or a mountaineer atv and how they are built? Probably not. The lack of detail leaves it open as to what is or is not valuable Rifts technology.

The rules covering salvage resale do not.

Not very well. Same with black market price tag. They don't take into account that value of a product is not static. I've already covered the lack of economic framework and inability to make an actual argument, however.

You haven't even read up on Rifts robots, have you?

It's been a great many years.

Maybe brush up on things before you wade into the fray.

If it was specifically about bots, you might have a point. But it wasn't, and you don't.

Skelebots are not a demonstration of the resources that the CS has available. It is a statement that the CS has resources available.

Nobody here is claiming that the CS can't be doing a lot with a little- the claim I'm making is that they are doing the possible with what they have.
Lenwen and company are complaining that what the CS is doing is impossible based on what they have.

Once again, I am not Lenwen and company.

Any time I bring something up you insist to couch it in that context and say "we're not talking about that" or any of the various other dismissals. We are talking about that. Unless you think I don't have a right to introduce discussion points.

The odd thing is that you say at the same time nobdy is claiming that the CS can't be doing a lot with a little when that is precisely the other conclusions I presented which you said were illogical.

There simply are multiple valid conclusions from the data.

Yes.
But only one logical conclusion.

If you ever feel like supporting this claim, let me know.

[Natasha]

No need to make it personal.

I agree with 'Lenwen and Company' that under a competent framework the CS does not exist as it does. It is ridiculous to turn off one's brain and impose a necessarily limited understanding of reality just to make sense of the nonsense fluff text. Barfing up and then arguing about nonsense isn't intellectually rewarding and it provides absolutely no value to the game. One side is rejecting the deficient context while the other discusses everything in the context. Why nobody on either side is talking to one another is obvious.

Because I don't want to dumb myself down for to join the conversation, I did not join the conversation. Instead I presented other valid and logical conclusions based on the data (as nonsensical as the data is). This contribution was not excepted for what it was; instead it was treated according to another's desires. While I think such behaviour is a clear reflection upon the individual's character, I think I'd rather go try to nail some jam to my ceiling than satisfy the demand that I simply grant the authors suspension of disbelief despite their utter failure to earn it and argue over unsupported nonsensical fluff texts.

I think those who are arguing from the 'Lenwen and Company' side of the fence would be better served to the same and start up their own topic wherein their opponents have no ground to demand the conversation be rooted in frameworks so elementary as to be practically useless.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Your quote thing is all jacked up but I'm going to try and dig it out.

Take a look at the map on page 336 of the game master guide. Lets look at the war with Quebec. Th get there, the CS had to cross hundreds on miles of enemy territory to whoop up on another equally powerful enemy. It was notes that the CS got spanked on the lakes, and we can assume that if they marched a force any where near the magic zone they would be attacked by the nasty's that dwell there not to mention the toll that rough country and Murphy would have. I can see the hippies in Lazlo not pestering them, but unless protected by the author they are fair game to all who want to play. Yet they prevail.

Air. Lift. Capacity.

You loadup a couple of Death's Head Transports. Fly them the relitivly short distance. They can go 670mph.... so you fly them up there. You blast out an LZ and you disembark troops to form your beachhead. They dig in and hold it. Then you ferry your army up there in short order. It's a short flight from the CS power base to get there.

Airlift capacity that gets attacked and has been getting attacked for 9 years, as well as attacking. It may be a short distance, but its dangerous.

Yeah... all of rifts earth is dangerous. But the CS moving an army have alot of guns. On the transport and on the support aircraft that would fly with it. Samus.Super Samus, Sky cycles, jets. ect. It's alot less dangerous for an army with millions of troops and power armor, than it is say.. for the passenger airline that runs in north america. (( check merc town. I hate it but it's canon)

then there are the forays into the magic zone. even if they were little six man teams, there would be bunches of six man teams with bases to operate from, and to store there equipment and all that. More opportunity to be attacked by those who hate then in the magic zone, and the consumption of precious resources.

6 man teams are just a drop in the ocean when you have "Millions" in your military. Nor do 6 man teams have bases to operate from in the MZ. They're long range patrols. They gear up. Go out. Come back. Or they get resupply dropped in, in the field.

That would work in game. But still, miss a drop, or get figured out and you are in trouble. It all depends on the detail you install as a GM, But I agree with you on this.

Well that goes for any long range recon patrol. If you miss resupply you could be in trouble. But those guys are trained 1) to live off the land if need be and 2) to raid and 'procure supplies" if need be. Rifts Earth is a dangerous place. If you have a squad of commandos behind enemy lines.. and they run out of food. They're not going to starve in a cave. They're going to hit a house or hamlet out in the boonies and take what they need. Make it look like standard every day raiders.. Or some sort of monster. Ect.

Mantisque, and Northern Gun are cut off by FQ. Oh. they did not do that in the FQ book ? Hm. It would be stupid not to shut those down. Must have been protected by the author.

You act as if they couldn't fly. They're technological powers in NA. They can fly across the lakes or take a left and go over land down through WI. You know.. pretty much straight down over land to the CS state of Chi Town? FQ is actually a distance from the UP. Pick up a map. That'd be a hell of a power reach to try and blockaded them. Iron Heart is between NG and FQ. So unless FQ was going to take out an entire CS state....... to blockade an independent nation.. Oh wait.. That's just stupid.

I did pick up a map. It was in the book that described FQ spanking the CS navy. They would just let enemy resources fly over head unmolested ? Wouldent that be stupid ? Na, that would be a hand wave.

Look at the map again. Notice the western edge of Northern Gun. Notice how it's connected by land there? The old state of WI? Now.. trace your finger south.... see how your finger now touches the CS state of Chi Town? You needent fly over the Lakes to be shot by the navy. It's a straight shot over land down to Chi town.

(( FQ does have a kick ass navy. But there's alot of great lakes. Deploying that far west wouldn't be very smart, and pirating an independent nation's waters less so.

There are also the Simvan who love tho slap up on the CS. More resources consumed.

They do, when they have the ability. They're not morons. They're nnot going to take on entire armies. They're roving bands of animal riding cannibals. They take out small units if they can. Not the nation as a whole. That's like going "Oh the gangs in LA hate the cops. So they attack them all the time" Um... No...?

Not all the time, but they dont have to hit them out right. They need only hit and run.

[/quote]

You have to hit and succeed and run. Other wise they're stupid debees popping off a few shots from the woods. If you hit and run on a moving army, that army dispatches troops to kill you. Simvan are riding animals. CS are flying in power armor and robot vechiles and stuff. Short fight.

And the Tolkeen conflict that consumed TONS of resources, just in the amount of destroyed skelibots, and at the same time they send 30,000 men and there weapons, ammo, vehicles, and support personnel on an extremely dangerous overseas mission and again they come out on top.

Because you are having a hard time counting to 'MILLIONS OF TROOPS'.

Millions of troops used in 9 years of continuous conflict, using high tech weapons, magic, as well as daemons and monsters. even if they had babies in litters, they would be close to drafting 14 yearolds by 109 PA

[/quote]

Untrue. the CS lost 400,000 by the end of the tolkeen war. Of which it was stated over 60% were not CS citizens but recruits from the burbs. (( Rifts Aftermath)) so out of their standing millions they lost less than 200,000. Even if they ONLY had 2 million (( the minimum needed to qualify for 'Millions")) They'd still have a standing army of 1.8 million troops.

Aftermath also notes that people have been flocking to sign up for the CS military in droves -- SINCE THE END OF THE WAR--.

The CS did take a hit, but people are largely over estimating the casualties inflicted in that war.

Did they lose a ton of resources in Tolkeen? yes. Did that deplete their forces? No. Read aftermath. Most of the troop losses in Tolkeen were green recruits that signed up from the burbs and stuff. Not the "Seasoned military". I.E. just before they went to war, they scooped up people out of the burbs, put them through basic and poured them into the tolkeen Conflict.... supped up MDC armor wearing cannon fodder. It's right there in rifts Aftermath. They lost 405,000 troops. out of MILLIONS. Not a small number. Don't get me wrong, but it's a percentage of the whole.

To quote Rifts aftermath, page 139.

"More over, enemies of the Coalition States mistakenly beleive the Coalition is weak and vulnerable, it's army spent and too spread out, especially as the CS begins to face the new challenge of the Xiticix. However, they are wrong. More than 60% that perished in both wars (( Tolkeen and FQ)) were volunteers from the 'burbs and rural communities of the CS whom are seen as un-official, expendable, second hand citizens. Patroitic souls who, since the Sorcerers Revenge and the Coalition's Triumph over tolkeen have been rusing to join the army in droves"

So.... direct quote from the book, says you're wrong.

[/quote]

I wont use the siege series. I posted that earlier, so really that alone means we are debating parallel worlds. Even so, seasoned would be worth there weight in gold, and with cybernetics and bionics I can see that being the case, but not on the scale suggested in the books. An KS says I am right.

Total falsehood. lol You're going. "I'm going to ignore 6 books of canon material. So you're wrong"

No.. You're ignoring 6 books. YOU'RE in the paralle world where you're just making stuff up. This thread isn't "Frogboys version of rifts' it's pertaining to the canon version. And if you're blatantly ignoring 6 books of material, you're not discussing the topic at hand. Your arguments ar flights of fancy. Not 'fact' as pertaining to the canonical world we're discussing.

KS doesn't say you're right. KS says take what ever you want from the books. You're choosing to ignore years worth of books. That's on you, but if you're making up your own world, your own extrapolations and creations can't be debated, as they're all made up by you. Not supported by fact.

More over if that's the case why are you even arguing at all. All your stuff is made up to fit what ever you want, but doesn't pertain to the books?

Thats just the north and east. I dont care how much plastic you can make out of coal you still have to move it around in territory full of enemy's who want to annihilate the CS. That does not even take into consideration threats from the south. Not that the threats from the south could overthrow the CS, but they would cause the CS to use up valuable resources. just like the others.

They have a high speed rail system. They have flight capability. They have ________________MILLIONS________________ of troops. The sources you're citing do exist. they are pests.. but they're mosquitoes biting the dog and getting their little tummies full of blood, IF they're not slapped and killed. They don't kill the dog. They just annoy it and make it itch now and then.

Rails that get sabotaged, air craft that gets shot down, millions of troops continuously at war. As for your dog analogy, it is still drawing resources.

Sometimes yeah, but if you have millions. Losing some here are there is all rolled into operation costs. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying when you're that big, it doesn't kill you. It's like walmart. Do kids shoplift action figures? yeah. Probably 100s a day. But the store is still making money hand over fist. it is drawing resources, but it's factored in.

You posted how many toys the CS started with. Thats all. And the grunts get 4 eclips not 8. The CS is an integral point of the Rifts game. They are necessarily protected by writer fiat. Period. The day the CS is no more is the day the last world book is published.

I don't discount that. They are protected, (( same as everyone else is.)) You, just like many others, refuse to look at the entire picture to see that it's not 'as much' fiat as you're claiming.

It is fiat, and I never said that I looked at the whole picture. I omitted the whole siege series of books, I made the CS literate and a bit less evil then depicted in the books. It is just as much my fiat as it is the authors. And that's how I see it.

if you're changing the setting by ignoring an entire series, why debate it, as your game is divergant from the canon material we're debating?

"Well MY IMAGINARY VERSON of the setting is like this!"

Well good for you. lol Not trying to be rude, but we're not talkin' about your version. We're talkin' about the version in the books.

[Pepsi Jedi]

No need to make it personal.

I agree with 'Lenwen and Company' that under a competent framework the CS does not exist as it does. It is ridiculous to turn off one's brain and impose a necessarily limited understanding of reality just to make sense of the nonsense fluff text. Barfing up and then arguing about nonsense isn't intellectually rewarding and it provides absolutely no value to the game. One side is rejecting the deficient context while the other discusses everything in the context. Why nobody on either side is talking to one another is obvious.

Because I don't want to dumb myself down for to join the conversation, I did not join the conversation. Instead I presented other valid and logical conclusions based on the data (as nonsensical as the data is). This contribution was not excepted for what it was; instead it was treated according to another's desires. While I think such behaviour is a clear reflection upon the individual's character, I think I'd rather go try to nail some jam to my ceiling than satisfy the demand that I simply grant the authors suspension of disbelief despite their utter failure to earn it and argue over unsupported nonsensical fluff texts.

I think those who are arguing from the 'Lenwen and Company' side of the fence would be better served to the same and start up their own topic wherein their opponents have no ground to demand the conversation be rooted in frameworks so elementary as to be practically useless.

Just a small personal note.... I'm guilty of not following your and KC's back and forth. *hangs head* Yalls posts were really big and.... I didn't read them. I was replying to others. I do apologise for that Natasha. You may have had brilliant stuff in there but I was replying to others and by the time I saw your and KC's bback and forth's they were too big for me to get into.

Nothing personal. I've only so much time to devote to forum sillyness.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's not just that phrase- it's your entire hallucination of what my point has been.
All I've said is that the CS has enough resources to support their existing army, and the stuff that it does in later books, that this is established early on.
I never said that they have "more equipment lying around than they know what to do with."
I don't recall saying that their production is inefficient, only that they are obviously not operating on a low budget where they're strapped for resources.

I know what your point is. I never once argued against it. You are confusing another logical and valid conclusion as an argument against your logical and valid conclusion. It wasn't that and it still isn't that. I don't know why you continue to insist that I'm doing things I'm not doing.

What logical and valid conclusion do you think that you are presenting?

In order for my conclusion to be logical and valid it must be possible that the CS doesn't have a massive surplus of cash and equipment.

Since you and I seem to have different ideas on what constitutes "massive surplus of cash and equipment," that statement is rather meaningless.

Also note that these are not the most cost-effective combat vehicles that the CS could have created.

Which was followed by a number of reasons why the CS production philosophy doesn't embrace efficiencies. There is no reason to assume that they're efficiently producting skelebots and inefficiently producing everything else.

Didn't I already cover this one?
Being less than ideally cost-effective does not mean "inefficient."
Or maybe it does, and I was using the words wrong.
Either way, I already explained what my point was, and why it doesn't fit with your argument here.

Tell you what- how about you read up on skelebots and other robots, get a better feel for the pricing and interaction with the econonomics of Rifts Earth, then get back to me?

That doesn't make any sense. The Black Market price does not care about skelebots. There is no need to read up on bots. The original assertion was that the black market price for skelebots gives an idea of how much it costs the CS to produce a skelebot. It doesn't. If you think it does, feel free to make a case with book and page numbers to support it.

You're the one asserting that the black market price doesn't give an indication of the production cost.
Feel free to make a case with book and page number to support it.
But first, read up on robots in Rifts, so you'll know what you're talking about.

So okay, we'll compromise.
Do it once, and let me know how it works out for you.

It worked out very well. The robot and all the afradium inside of it was everything that I wanted and needed.

No, seriously. Go out in the real world, buy a new car, take it to a scrapyard and junk it for profit.
That's your theory of how things work, so put it into practice.
If you're right, you should be able to make money.
If not, then not.

Do you know all the components of a skelebot or a hovercycle or a mountaineer atv and how they are built? Probably not. The lack of detail leaves it open as to what is or is not valuable Rifts technology.

The rules covering salvage resale do not.

Not very well. Same with black market price tag. They don't take into account that value of a product is not static.[/qutoe]

Actually, they do cover it, to the extent that it exists in Rifts.

You haven't even read up on Rifts robots, have you?

It's been a great many years.

Maybe brush up on things before you wade into the fray.

If it was specifically about bots, you might have a point.

This particular point IS about bots.

Skelebots are not a demonstration of the resources that the CS has available.

Get out the books and show me.

The odd thing is that you say at the same time nobdy is claiming that the CS can't be doing a lot with a little when that is precisely the other conclusions I presented which you said were illogical.

You started off by saying that there were things that I missed.
The notion that the CS might be doing a lot with a little is not something that I missed.
So what was your point again?

There simply are multiple valid conclusions from the data.

Yes.
But only one logical conclusion.

If you ever feel like supporting this claim, let me know.

Already have done.
Let me know what parts you don't understand.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yes, if you have any questions about that part, you can also ask me via PM.

Why via PM ?

Because just in case things got personal in the conversation, it would save us from spamming up this thread, possibly getting it locked, and possibly getting one or both of us banned.

So if you'd like to interact further on this subject, it's best done via PM.

[Killer Cyborg]

if you're changing the setting by ignoring an entire series, why debate it, as your game is divergant from the canon material we're debating?

"Well MY IMAGINARY VERSON of the setting is like this!"

Well good for you. lol Not trying to be rude, but we're not talkin' about your version. We're talkin' about the version in the books.

Bingo.
If Frogboy had come in and said, "I do things differently, here's how..." it wouldn't really have been relevant to the topic, but otherwise wouldn't have gotten an argument from me.
But instead he tried to argue that the CS, going by the official books, should be over-run, then repeatedly demonstrated ignorance of what the books actually say, and got upset when I pointed out what the books DO actually say.

[Killer Cyborg]

Never said they should have been over run. I said they would not be able to commit to war as it is written up.

viewtopic.php?p=2457043#p2457043

If you think about it the only reason the CS exists at all is because they are protected by KS.

viewtopic.php?p=2457217#p2457217

Going by the conflicts written for the CS they would not survive without being protected by the author.

[Natasha]

It's not just that phrase- it's your entire hallucination of what my point has been.
All I've said is that the CS has enough resources to support their existing army, and the stuff that it does in later books, that this is established early on.
I never said that they have "more equipment lying around than they know what to do with."
I don't recall saying that their production is inefficient, only that they are obviously not operating on a low budget where they're strapped for resources.

I know what your point is. I never once argued against it. You are confusing another logical and valid conclusion as an argument against your logical and valid conclusion. It wasn't that and it still isn't that. I don't know why you continue to insist that I'm doing things I'm not doing.

What logical and valid conclusion do you think that you are presenting?

That the CS does not have to have a lot or plenty to do or be what it does and what it is.

If quite a lot or plenty are not the same as a little, then both conclusions are valid and logical based on the data. One conclusion: they have a lot. Another conclusion: they have a little. In both conclusions they do what they do and are what they are.

Tell you what- how about you read up on skelebots and other robots, get a better feel for the pricing and interaction with the econonomics of Rifts Earth, then get back to me?

That doesn't make any sense. The Black Market price does not care about skelebots. There is no need to read up on bots. The original assertion was that the black market price for skelebots gives an idea of how much it costs the CS to produce a skelebot. It doesn't. If you think it does, feel free to make a case with book and page numbers to support it.

You're the one asserting that the black market price doesn't give an indication of the production cost.
Feel free to make a case with book and page number to support it.
But first, read up on robots in Rifts, so you'll know what you're talking about.

Production cost is not in the function of market price. Market price is a function of supply and demand. This is rudimentary economics. Then again, you have argued against using any real life knowledge frameworks in the pursuit of explaining anything in the game, so I guess I'm not surprised that you would use make-believe economics as well rather than reading up on the subject before wading in with a bunch of made up garbage.

So okay, we'll compromise.
Do it once, and let me know how it works out for you.

It worked out very well. The robot and all the afradium inside of it was everything that I wanted and needed.

No, seriously. Go out in the real world, buy a new car, take it to a scrapyard and junk it for profit.
That's your theory of how things work, so put it into practice.
If you're right, you should be able to make money.
If not, then not.

More make-believe economics. Value is not the same thing as Price. Value is the consumer's choice: "is this product at this price going to satisfy my wants/needs?" Price is a function of supply and demand. You must have supply and you must have demand to determine price and that is all. There must be something to buy and there must be people wanting/needing to buy it. The value that drives demand is not significantly relevant.

Not very well. Same with black market price tag. They don't take into account that value of a product is not static.

Actually, they do cover it, to the extent that it exists in Rifts.

Doesn't address my point that it isn't done very well. But thanks anyway.

This particular point IS about bots.

It is about bots as a product. It could be silly string and the principles would remain the same.

Skelebots are not a demonstration of the resources that the CS has available.

Get out the books and show me.

It's your claim, you support it.

Get out the books and show me where it demonstrates the resources that the CS has rather simply states that the CS has resources. Indeed, even you had to use outside outside knowledge and resources to demonstrate the resources that the CS has available. None of your links were to the books. Then you complain when someone else doing precisely the same thing and points out the gaping holes large enough to consume the megaverse in the Rifts framework. It's just ridiculous what you're doing.

The odd thing is that you say at the same time nobdy is claiming that the CS can't be doing a lot with a little when that is precisely the other conclusions I presented which you said were illogical.

You started off by saying that there were things that I missed.
The notion that the CS might be doing a lot with a little is not something that I missed.
So what was your point again?

There simply are multiple valid conclusions from the data.

Yes.
But only one logical conclusion.

If you ever feel like supporting this claim, let me know.

Already have done.
Let me know what parts you don't understand.

What I do not understand is how you can say in one sentence that the CS could do what it does and be what it is with a little bit of resources, and that is precisely the conclusion I presented, and then in the next sentence say that there is only one logical conclusion, which is a different conclusion that what I presented.

Do you understand that I did not make a counterargument to your conclusion? Do you understand that I was not disagreeing with you? Do you understand that "you did not present all valid and logical conclusions, and here they are" does not mean or even imply "you're wrong"?

[Killer Cyborg]

What logical and valid conclusion do you think that you are presenting?

That the CS does not have to have a lot or plenty to do or be what it does and what it is.

If quite a lot or plenty are not the same as a little, then both conclusions are valid and logical based on the data.

Refresh my memory, please: when did I use the term "quite a lot" in describing the CS's resources?

You're the one asserting that the black market price doesn't give an indication of the production cost.
Feel free to make a case with book and page number to support it.
But first, read up on robots in Rifts, so you'll know what you're talking about.

Production cost is not in the function of market price. Market price is a function of supply and demand. This is rudimentary economics.

Correct.
Now let's test your rudimentary economics knowledge:
Is production cost a factor in supply?

No, seriously. Go out in the real world, buy a new car, take it to a scrapyard and junk it for profit.
That's your theory of how things work, so put it into practice.
If you're right, you should be able to make money.
If not, then not.

More make-believe economics. Value is not the same thing as Price.

Never said it was.
So, go test your theory. Buy a new car, scrap it, and reap the profit.

Not very well. Same with black market price tag. They don't take into account that value of a product is not static.

Actually, they do cover it, to the extent that it exists in Rifts.

Doesn't address my point that it isn't done very well. But thanks anyway.

Let me clarify, since you seem to have missed it:
Actually, the books DO cover the fact that the value of a product is not static.
You just claimed that they didn't.
I was correcting you.

This particular point IS about bots.

It is about bots as a product. It could be silly string and the principles would remain the same.

Except that I never held up silly string as evidence of anything.
I did hold up skelebots, and unless you're familiar with the robots and prices in the game, you don't know what you're talking about when you try to tell me that I'm wrong.
If you're so sure that I'm wrong, that's cool- read up on the subject until you know enough to discuss it, and THEN demonstrate how wrong I am.

Skelebots are not a demonstration of the resources that the CS has available.

Get out the books and show me.

It's your claim, you support it.

No... you're the one who claimed that they're not a demonstration of the resources that the CS has.
That's YOUR claim.
I just quoted you saying it.
Try again.

Get out the books and show me where it demonstrates the resources that the CS has rather simply states that the CS has resources.

What do you believe is the difference?

Indeed, even you had to use outside outside knowledge and resources to demonstrate the resources that the CS has available.

I didn't have to.
I just did.
Because people seemed blissfully unaware that the territory that the CS occupies actually has a lot of resources.

None of your links were to the books.

Nice!
If you know of a way to link to the books, please show me.

Then you complain when someone else doing precisely the same thing and points out the gaping holes large enough to consume the megaverse in the Rifts framework. It's just ridiculous what you're doing.

No, there's a difference. I used some out-of-game knowledge to support in-game information.
You're not.
You're staying out of the game-world, because you're not really familiar with it.
You're trying to describe in-game economics solely based on real-world economics, without enough information on the in-game economics to make an accurate comparison/contrast.

What I do not understand is how you can say in one sentence that the CS could do what it does and be what it is with a little bit of resources, and that is precisely the conclusion I presented, and then in the next sentence say that there is only one logical conclusion, which is a different conclusion that what I presented.

Where exactly did you post that conclusion?
Link to the post and/or quote it for me.

Do you understand that I did not make a counterargument to your conclusion? Do you understand that I was not disagreeing with you? Do you understand that "you did not present all valid and logical conclusions, and here they are" does not mean or even imply "you're wrong"?

Nope.

[Natasha]

Soilder for soilder .. (not who has the biggest)

Which militaries currently active on Rifts earth .. Has thee best Military soilder for soilder .. equipment wise an everything .

Whats your guys opinions ?

It seems the answer is my PC group.

6. Maximum Firepower. The unit is as well-armed, soldier by soldier, as any outfit on the planet.

[Natasha]

What logical and valid conclusion do you think that you are presenting?

That the CS does not have to have a lot or plenty to do or be what it does and what it is.

If quite a lot or plenty are not the same as a little, then both conclusions are valid and logical based on the data.

Refresh my memory, please: when did I use the term "quite a lot" in describing the CS's resources?

But they DO have quite a lot at their disposal, and that's made incredibly clear in the first couple of Rifts books (Rifts and Sourcebook 1) ...

You're the one asserting that the black market price doesn't give an indication of the production cost.
Feel free to make a case with book and page number to support it.
But first, read up on robots in Rifts, so you'll know what you're talking about.

Production cost is not in the function of market price. Market price is a function of supply and demand. This is rudimentary economics.

Correct.
Now let's test your rudimentary economics knowledge:
Is production cost a factor in supply?

Yes but that is irrelevant to the discussion.

You said that logically the CS would pay a significant fraction of the black market cost.

In order for skelebots to be as limited in number as they are, and in order for them to be as costly as they are, and to keep their black market prices competitive with other similar products, it's safe to assume that the productions costs are a significant percentage of the black market price.

Even for make believe economics this is utterly foolish. The CS does not service the Black Market. Production cost may or may not be a factor in supply. It depends upon the supplier, really; the supplier could need to crank out units costs be damned, for instance. It does not matter, though, the product price tells you nothing about the production cost of the product. We'll even leave alone that we have no idea the number that are on the market and that 3 million credits is not necessarily "costly" to a character.

Furthermore, why would I buy a skelebot on the black market unless I was a CS officer as it is the only creature it will take orders from? It won't even attack humans so unless I'm going after D-Bees there is no use as an assault bot. Or does the black market reprogamme it and if it does book and page?

No, seriously. Go out in the real world, buy a new car, take it to a scrapyard and junk it for profit.
That's your theory of how things work, so put it into practice.
If you're right, you should be able to make money.
If not, then not.

More make-believe economics. Value is not the same thing as Price.

Never said it was.
So, go test your theory. Buy a new car, scrap it, and reap the profit.

What theory are you talking about? That value and price aren't the same thing? You think that I really need to test that?

This particular point IS about bots.

It is about bots as a product. It could be silly string and the principles would remain the same.

Except that I never held up silly string as evidence of anything.
I did hold up skelebots, and unless you're familiar with the robots and prices in the game, you don't know what you're talking about when you try to tell me that I'm wrong.
If you're so sure that I'm wrong, that's cool- read up on the subject until you know enough to discuss it, and THEN demonstrate how wrong I am.

It doesn't matter what you said. The principles of economics hold for silly string the same as they for robots when you're talking about product price, because product price is a function of supply and demand. If you disagree with the fundamental axioms of economics that's cool but you really ought to give a really damn good reason to do so. Repeating "I'm talking about ROBOTS" isn't a good reason, nevermind a damn good one.

Skelebots are not a demonstration of the resources that the CS has available.

Get out the books and show me.

It's your claim, you support it.

No... you're the one who claimed that they're not a demonstration of the resources that the CS has.
That's YOUR claim.
I just quoted you saying it.
Try again.

Already did all the way back at the start when I explained your book quotations are merely claims, unsupported claims. I've been done for a quite a while now, I'm just waiting for you to finally get to demonstration rather than simply repeating the hollow claims the authors wrote down for you.

Get out the books and show me where it demonstrates the resources that the CS has rather simply states that the CS has resources.

What do you believe is the difference?

I have a dollar in my pocket.

I show you the dollar in my pocket.

I hope you know the difference between which one is stated and which one is demonstrated.

In the context of the books, they demonstrate that the CS has oil and oil refinery capacities and where. They do not simply leave to our imagination. See one is a statement that they have something. Another is a demonstration that they do. Pretty simple, really.

Indeed, even you had to use outside outside knowledge and resources to demonstrate the resources that the CS has available.

I didn't have to.
I just did.
Because people seemed blissfully unaware that the territory that the CS occupies actually has a lot of resources.

So book and page that demonstrates all of the resources the CS has?

What the people seem to be is utterly irrelevant.

None of your links were to the books.

Nice!
If you know of a way to link to the books, please show me.

It's 100 years in the future.

Then you complain when someone else doing precisely the same thing and points out the gaping holes large enough to consume the megaverse in the Rifts framework. It's just ridiculous what you're doing.

No, there's a difference. I used some out-of-game knowledge to support in-game information.
You're not.
You're staying out of the game-world, because you're not really familiar with it.
You're trying to describe in-game economics solely based on real-world economics, without enough information on the in-game economics to make an accurate comparison/contrast.

Wrong. I'm quite familiar with how supply and demand determine product price and do not reveal the production cost. I am quite familiar with how value is not price and price is not value.

So then I used my up-armoured car and UAV with a few thousand credits worth of explosives for an expedition into the Canadian wilderness. I extracted about 1000 diamonds approximately the size of my finger tip. I just made 15 million credits. And there are 1000s more diamonds waiting to be extracted out of the ground. The bot's 3 million product cost was worth every credit spent. That 3 million credit bot was an incredible value.

What I do not understand is how you can say in one sentence that the CS could do what it does and be what it is with a little bit of resources, and that is precisely the conclusion I presented, and then in the next sentence say that there is only one logical conclusion, which is a different conclusion that what I presented.

Where exactly did you post that conclusion?
Link to the post and/or quote it for me.

I'm not going to sift through the noise, so I'll just repeat myself.

Premise: With a little bit of resources, a military may train every man in its force.
Premise: The CS military trains every man in its force.
Conclusion: The CS military has a little bit of resources.

Premise: With a lot of resources, a military may train every man in its force.
Premise: The CS military trains every man in its force.
Conclusion: The CS military has a lot of resources.

Premise: With a little bit of money, a military may budget high pay for its soldiers
Premise: The CS military budgets high pay for its soldiers.
Conclusion: The CS military has a little bit of money.

Premise: With a lot of money, a military may budget high pay for its soldiers
Premise: The CS military budgets high pay for its soldiers.
Conclusion: The CS military has a lot of money.

You said only two were logical. Which two are not logical and why?

Do you understand that I did not make a counterargument to your conclusion? Do you understand that I was not disagreeing with you? Do you understand that "you did not present all valid and logical conclusions, and here they are" does not mean or even imply "you're wrong"?

Nope.

What's the hang up?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah I pointed that out back a page or so.

[Natasha]

Doesn't look like they're sitting on any uranium.

[Akashic Soldier]

But I am.

Check it out... Dogboy tail!

..and incurable cancer..

[Dustin Fireblade]

Doesn't look like they're sitting on any uranium.

Texas has uranium mines, as does Canada (which was the world's largest exporter until recently). The bigger question might be how much was lost when Quebec broke away. Also according to wikipediea, the US has the 4th largest reserves of uranium in the world, another job for the CEF - find these old mines/sites.

Wasn't it a Expeditionary Force looking for oil that found Lone star?

Yes I believe so.




At any rate, the CS is completely self sufficient (pg 11 CSN), but all this talk about resources has been fascinating.