A question of Half-breeds

[Ravenwing]

Ok before I begin let me say.....
Yes I realize Half breeds are not realistic. In response however neither is magic. unrealistic isn't a viable answer to this question. What I want to know, and am trying to discover are any game balancing issues that might arise from it.
Ok then, now that thats out of the way....

Recently a player in my group wanted to make a Half-elf PC. She didn't want to make a powerhouse character, just your typical fantasy half-human, half-elven half-elf.
I let her, deciding that the character got a +4 bonus to PB, used 3d6 to determine all attributes, and had nightvision at half the distance of an elf. In game the character is widely believed to be simply a short elf, with oddly colored hair( She's a strawberry blond.)

Now, I haven't had any game balance issues yet, and I don't expect to either, since the character is basically a human with a few oddities. But it has raised a question in game, about another staple of fantasy characters, Half-orcs.

Now again, I don't immediately see a issue of balance here. with the exception of being a little more strong, and more healthy, would a Half-Orc, unbalance things?

Looking over my books, I see far more powerful characters, giants are unarguably more powerful then a Half-orc.

So what I'm looking for is any unseen issues for game balance.

[Cinos]

There is no real balance issue, it's a logic and preference issue. Keep in mind, being a half-breed in reality is often more of a hinderece then a benefit, at best, it's a trade off. If a half breed in game is just a human with things added to it (or an Orc with some troll stuff tossed on), it should be re-thought.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Off the top of my head.....
There are only two half breeds avalible in canon. Demi-gods and Kirn-half breeds.
However, there are no rules about how to handle a Kirn half-breed's stats.

[Grug]

I believe Ogre's are only the only race humans can mate with. According to the core book, they might not be the only race. But it is the only race I know of that says they can. It also states that such offspring are always consider Ogres...

[Ravenwing]

There is no real balance issue, it's a logic and preference issue. Keep in mind, being a half-breed in reality is often more of a hinderece then a benefit, at best, it's a trade off. If a half breed in game is just a human with things added to it (or an Orc with some troll stuff tossed on), it should be re-thought.

Statwise, yes they're just like humans with a few benefits.
Fluff wise no. The half-elf is among the few of her race moving about. Most NPC's have never seen a Half-Elf, and many people think their just a myth. Half-elves are rare, not as rare as say a minotaur, but not widely known.
To Dwarves, she's an elf, and faces a lot of prejudice because of it.
To Elves, shes not right, their's something lacking in her.
To humans, she's beautiful, and many nobles would like to keep her as a plaything, but she also draws alot of envy, and scorn. Not to mention she's considered 'impure' by a number of racist she meets, after all, half her blood is elven.
The character has faced, and continues to face a number of problems, most of them social. Furthermore the character always has the inner turmoil of not being elven enough, or human, and trying to make peace with herself.

[Myrrhibis]

There is no real balance issue, it's a logic and preference issue. Keep in mind, being a half-breed in reality is often more of a hinderece then a benefit, at best, it's a trade off. If a half breed in game is just a human with things added to it (or an Orc with some troll stuff tossed on), it should be re-thought.

Statwise, yes they're just like humans with a few benefits.
Fluff wise no. The half-elf is among the few of her race moving about. Most NPC's have never seen a Half-Elf, and many people think their just a myth. Half-elves are rare, not as rare as say a minotaur, but not widely known.
To Dwarves, she's an elf, and faces a lot of prejudice because of it.
To Elves, shes not right, their's something lacking in her.
To humans, she's beautiful, and many nobles would like to keep her as a plaything, but she also draws alot of envy, and scorn. Not to mention she's considered 'impure' by a number of racist she meets, after all, half her blood is elven.
The character has faced, and continues to face a number of problems, most of them social. Furthermore the character always has the inner turmoil of not being elven enough, or human, and trying to make peace with herself.

Game mechanics-wise, base-race hybrids shouldn't imbalance things.

You've done as my group has done for 2 decades - the changes mainly affect role-playing stuff (prejudices).
We've always been a role-play heavy group, so she'd fit right in.

[pblackcrow]

I believe Ogre's are only the only race humans can mate with. According to the core book, they might not be the only race. But it is the only race I know of that says they can. It also states that such offspring are always consider Ogres...

An ogre is not an Orcs. And the question was not what's in the book, but what we as GMs would allow, and that is a tough call to make. For me, it would depend on several factors. 1, the type of game I was running or planning to run. 2, Determining how the player would be excepted to fit in within "normal" society and then telling him he would probably be bought as a slave or be a former gladiator or the like and have to portray that. 3, the playing style of said player. And 4, what he or she wants to do with the character. I would allow it based on that.

[pblackcrow]

There is no real balance issue, it's a logic and preference issue. Keep in mind, being a half-breed in reality is often more of a hinderece then a benefit, at best, it's a trade off. If a half breed in game is just a human with things added to it (or an Orc with some troll stuff tossed on), it should be re-thought.

Statwise, yes they're just like humans with a few benefits.
Fluff wise no. The half-elf is among the few of her race moving about. Most NPC's have never seen a Half-Elf, and many people think their just a myth. Half-elves are rare, not as rare as say a minotaur, but not widely known.
To Dwarves, she's an elf, and faces a lot of prejudice because of it.
To Elves, shes not right, their's something lacking in her.
To humans, she's beautiful, and many nobles would like to keep her as a plaything, but she also draws alot of envy, and scorn. Not to mention she's considered 'impure' by a number of racist she meets, after all, half her blood is elven.
The character has faced, and continues to face a number of problems, most of them social. Furthermore the character always has the inner turmoil of not being elven enough, or human, and trying to make peace with herself.

Game mechanics-wise, base-race hybrids shouldn't imbalance things.

You've done as my group has done for 2 decades - the changes mainly affect role-playing stuff (prejudices).
We've always been a role-play heavy group, so she'd fit right in.

Ditto here on the half-elf.

[Ravenwing]

Tonight I'm trying out a half-orc npc. the group is in an area where it's said a number of exslaves have hidden out. One band of orcs is lead by a half-orc, mainly because he's smarter then the rest of them and is a witch, having magical might and a bit more brains. The NPC has successfully lead his warband on a number of raids, and the Nobles haven't been able to locate the orcs that are doing it. The PC's have been hired to handle the problem.

[tmikesecrist3]

If I rember with pb Orcs. there females cant have children so they must bread with human women the children are orc.. you could think of orcs as a sub race of humans

[Long Shadow]

If I rember with pb Orcs. there females cant have children so they must bread with human women the children are orc.. you could think of orcs as a sub race of humans

You're thinking of ogres. Though their females have low fertility, not infertile.

[drewkitty ~..~]

IIRC, there have been posts of a half-elf RCC on this very forum.

If I were to allow a half-breed in game, I would go one of two ways.
1. just give a 50-50 chance of the offspring to be either one of the parents RCCs, unmodified.
2. make a "half-breed" RCC where stats are averaged and powers/abilities are halved.

1) Do you mean that you would give the offspring a 50/50 change of being one or the other parents' Races? Cause that what it sounds like you mean.
2) Again it sounds like you mean you would create a half breed Race by averaging the parents' races for the child.


No, Race and RCC are not interchangeable terms.

[AzathothXy]

Well in the 1st edition Timiro book(i think), there was a npc listed that was either a half-hobgoblin or half-orc.

[tmikesecrist3]

the thing you have to watch is depending on if you throw in the elves Weakness to iron and or there reaction to caffeine. you would have to reside of the half elf suffered form it. the other thing is. that if you look at myths. there are human magics that an elf can not do no matter how powerful or skilled they may be.. IE creation magics. in some myths an elf can not create some thing new only mod or copy. that is not to say that a Elvin smith can not make a new sword but the sword they make will more then likely use the same old design or posably inprouve it. I know some writers have taken that a human/elf child could use both magics but not as well as a human or a elf with there own respected disciplines. as for the looks I would porbly go 50/50 on rather they look more human or more elven. Also for an elf and a human to have a child they need the help of magic. that could take the form of vary dark blood magic. and in that case is likely to leave the human parent insane. or a ritual that calls for the the help of 2 other magic users. to in effect temperallary turn the human parent into something closer to the elf a creature of magic.. I could suggest reading Lackie's bedlams bard books for ideas on how that might work in two books you get info on how both work.... and one of the anti-heros is a half elf

[zyanitevp]

Well in the 1st edition Timiro book(i think), there was a npc listed that was either a half-hobgoblin or half-orc.

Great memory! In Old Ones, 1st edition, in the town of Yria-
"22.) Tobacconist: Pipes, tobacco, and cheap booze all sold here. Proprietor' is a half-orc, but seems to be just an ugly human."

See the benefit of selling your books on PDF? Took me 3 seconds to look up! Got it at drive-thru...

[Grug]

I believe Ogre's are only the only race humans can mate with. According to the core book, they might not be the only race. But it is the only race I know of that says they can. It also states that such offspring are always consider Ogres...

An ogre is not an Orcs. And the question was not what's in the book, but what we as GMs would allow, and that is a tough call to make. For me, it would depend on several factors. 1, the type of game I was running or planning to run. 2, Determining how the player would be excepted to fit in within "normal" society and then telling him he would probably be bought as a slave or be a former gladiator or the like and have to portray that. 3, the playing style of said player. And 4, what he or she wants to do with the character. I would allow it based on that.

Sorry I got side tracked in the middle and left (My wife has very nice legs) it lol.
I was just starting out by what was per book, out of habit. Now I have let people play half-breeds. It adds a lot to the Role-Playing element. Now I do always tweak the stats. That way it is not your run of the meal race. I have never seen it imbalance my games at all, or at least never realized it.

Sometimes I have to say no though, once my wife wanted to play a half Kender half Dwarf. Her drawing of it was funny as hell, but I had to show some sense right?

[Ravenwing]

I believe Ogre's are only the only race humans can mate with. According to the core book, they might not be the only race. But it is the only race I know of that says they can. It also states that such offspring are always consider Ogres...

An ogre is not an Orcs. And the question was not what's in the book, but what we as GMs would allow, and that is a tough call to make. For me, it would depend on several factors. 1, the type of game I was running or planning to run. 2, Determining how the player would be excepted to fit in within "normal" society and then telling him he would probably be bought as a slave or be a former gladiator or the like and have to portray that. 3, the playing style of said player. And 4, what he or she wants to do with the character. I would allow it based on that.

Sorry I got side tracked in the middle and left (My wife has very nice legs) it lol.
I was just starting out by what was per book, out of habit. Now I have let people play half-breeds. It adds a lot to the Role-Playing element. Now I do always tweak the stats. That way it is not your run of the meal race. I have never seen it imbalance my games at all, or at least never realized it.

Sometimes I have to say no though, once my wife wanted to play a half Kender half Dwarf. Her drawing of it was funny as hell, but I had to show some sense right?

Ummm...nows when I get to show off my knowledge of Krynn......
Half-Kender/Half-Dwarfs are viable..... It's listed in Races of Krynn, and there's one character that is one in one of the Fifth age novels...... but basically it's a half-kender.(same stats)

[drewkitty ~..~]

No, Race and RCC are not interchangeable terms.

Why not? RCC has the term "race" nestled right inside it. The only difference is the "CC" part that denotes skills and such. If I was born a human, and never learn anything else, am I not a Human RCC? If I were to learn the ways of magic, taking on the mantle of the Wizard OCC, do I cease to be a human?
I think we all realize that half-breeds are not canon. So your perceived (by me) rules lawyering is not needed.

To better quantify: It is my opinion that 'race' and 'RCC' are essentially the same. I see no reason why any RCC/race cannot choose any OCC/class (other than obvious restrictions such as a non-psionic race choosing a psionic class, but even then, exceptions can be made)

RCC stands for Racial Char Class, which which means, most of the time, that the class is restricted to a single race. A racialy restricted char class, such as the Dog Pack class is restricted to the Dog Boy race.
Char Class is not genetics.

There are races that are restricted to a single class, which they have to be in. [Or at very least start off as.] Such as the Altarin BWW of Atlantis, or the In'vilid race in PW. To determin which races are stuck in a single class takes reading the text of that race to find out. This is because the powers/abilities/world view of the race are intermixed with the class.

However, even then the class is still just their class. Not their genetics.

Afterword: As a Gm, yes, I would allow a char of a race restricted to a single class take another class in my game. However, they would loose at very least their racial powers because the very reason they would of been able to take a different class was that they did not have the powers/abilities that would of pushed them into the class the rest of the race has.

But when talking about canon, the answer is 'No, they can not take any other class because they are of that race which is restricted to that single class."

[Levi]

I agree with everyone else, there are really no balance issues. Somehow, half breeds have always bugged me and I am glad they are not in PF.

[azazel1024]

I'll have to double check, but I am pretty sure half ogres AND half elves are available character classes. IIRC half-elves (human/elf breed) have slightly longer life spans and I think an extra point to PB and maybe an extra point or two to PP, but that is it. Otherwise they are nearly human. Half ogres I don't really remember what stats they get.

Half-orcs aren't possible because they aren't particularly human (they are more kobold than human). Ogres are described as being some how offshots or humans from long ago, so we can still mate with them. Elves, well, who doesn't want to mate with one of them and half elves are in pretty much all fantasy, so why not. Other species are probably just to different.

Fantasy wise, not just "realism" wise most species are just too different from humans to make a logical/resonable hybrid. I could see half-elf, dwarf and ogre breeds. I could maybe see half-gnome. Beyond that and the species are pretty radically different from humans (I could also see elves, dwarves, ogres and maybe gnomes able to interbreed as well...don't ask me how the gnome-ogre thing would physiologically work).

[drewkitty ~..~]

However, there are those races in which having the race's powers means they are required to have that race's RCC. At least for char creation.
The Why for the above, they are trained up in the race's way of life (RCC)as everyone else is.
Thus it is only those w/o the race's normal powers that get trained in other classes.

But if you are playing PF then you'd be in luck, there are the optional posted class changing rules that let RCC's change their class. [Chars in another setting is SoL when it comes to changing class.]

[pblackcrow]

I believe Ogre's are only the only race humans can mate with. According to the core book, they might not be the only race. But it is the only race I know of that says they can. It also states that such offspring are always consider Ogres...

An ogre is not an Orcs. And the question was not what's in the book, but what we as GMs would allow, and that is a tough call to make. For me, it would depend on several factors. 1, the type of game I was running or planning to run. 2, Determining how the player would be excepted to fit in within "normal" society and then telling him he would probably be bought as a slave or be a former gladiator or the like and have to portray that. 3, the playing style of said player. And 4, what he or she wants to do with the character. I would allow it based on that.

Sorry I got side tracked in the middle and left (My wife has very nice legs) it lol.
I was just starting out by what was per book, out of habit. Now I have let people play half-breeds. It adds a lot to the Role-Playing element. Now I do always tweak the stats. That way it is not your run of the meal race. I have never seen it imbalance my games at all, or at least never realized it.

Sometimes I have to say no though, once my wife wanted to play a half Kender half Dwarf. Her drawing of it was funny as hell, but I had to show some sense right?

No need to apologize...I was just expressing what popped into my head. Didn't mean for it to sound like I was being jerk to you.

[Justthis Guy]

I allow half elves and half-orcs in my game. I have tweeked the stats to make it fit good.
1/2 elf gets just 2d6 for MA (I think) and 4d6 PB and +? on PP, but others are just 3d6, a marriage of the the two races.
did the similar thing with the 1/2 orcs . .
It is an option for the players.

[DracoMagus]

How I'd handle this would be to allow certain half-breeds. Humans would be able to cross with elves, orcs, ogres and (possibly) dwarves. I'd also allow for crosses with orcs and ogres. There may be other, more exotic, crosses possible in the cases of creatures that are highly magical, such as faeries, dragons, celestials and infernals (ie- angels, demons and/or deevils) and Possibly elemental creatures. With these more exotic crosses there would, in some cases, be only very specific crosses (elf/faerie). In the cases of angels and the like, the half-bred offspring would be NPC only. Any offspring from there would be viable player characters.

On an indirectly related note, I would allow "Golem-wright" characters. These would be like bionics, but with golem parts instead of technological implants.

[GGTW21]

Old Ones page 112

Hortense Thundercloud, Weaponsmith: Hortense and his
brother Alphonse are half-orcs, and middling weaponsmiths.

So does that make it canon?

[pblackcrow]

How I'd handle this would be to allow certain half-breeds. Humans would be able to cross with elves, orcs, ogres and (possibly) dwarves. I'd also allow for crosses with orcs and ogres. There may be other, more exotic, crosses possible in the cases of creatures that are highly magical, such as faeries, dragons, celestials and infernals (ie- angels, demons and/or deevils) and Possibly elemental creatures. With these more exotic crosses there would, in some cases, be only very specific crosses (elf/faerie). In the cases of angels and the like, the half-bred offspring would be NPC only. Any offspring from there would be viable player characters.

On an indirectly related note, I would allow "Golem-wright" characters. These would be like bionics, but with golem parts instead of technological implants.

QUESTION...How exactly is a Faerie going to procreate with an Elf? I can only think of two really sick ways right off the bat...1.) ARMAGEDDON, ARMAGEDDON!!!!! Are male faerie prized feltching objects for female elves or used as living dildos? If so, does the Palladium World have two clowns names John Boy & Billy to harass a town crier named Robert D Rayford while he tries to tell a story involving a faerie feltching season gone awry? If so, I would love to hear or read that one. Or 2.) are female faeries the prized targets of sperm shots for male elves? The world may never know! And thank the Gods for that!

[pblackcrow]

I do apologize for the graphic nature of my post above. It was purely my attempt at humor. But mixed with a bit of reality. In conclusion, kids, don't use faeries for feltching, as living dildos, or as ejaculatory targets. Just rip their wings off and sell them to the Alchemist down the road instead. And invest your gold wisely.

[Chronicle]

well.........i think the main reason why Cross breeding is not usually written in the books is more due to complication then balance.

In which case they would have to create a genetic dominance chart or a Traits chart based on the mixes.....very odd indeed. and so fricken annoyingly complicated.

anyways......thats how i would do it lol

[ZorValachan]

I would keep a couple things in mind too. Half-breeds in the real world are almost always sterile. So you might not allow quarter breeds and what-not. Also depending on which race the father and mother are, you can get very different offspring. case-in-point. A donkey father and a horse mother; you get a mule. If you reverse the mother and father and have a horse father and donkey mother, you do not get a mule, but a hinny. Traits of the two are not the same. It is also harder to get a hinny offspring than a mule.

[Ravenwing]

I do apologize for the graphic nature of my post above. It was purely my attempt at humor. But mixed with a bit of reality. In conclusion, kids, don't use faeries for feltching, as living dildos, or as ejaculatory targets. Just rip their wings off and sell them to the Alchemist down the road instead. And invest your gold wisely.

Lol, funny story!

My wife loves Fairies, once in a Rifts game she played a Silverbell fairy, and I played a human TW Warrior. Anyway, at the start of the game our characters were married.

Of course the GM, and our fellow players asked how we consummated our wedding, or how we were intimate at all. As we explained to them it involved a lot of Potions of Shrink to 6"tall for me, and Giant growth for her( Which would see her 5.3" self grow to 5.3'."

[tmikesecrist3]

Which is why I would limit it, I think human elf parings would be posable, but here is the catch it would may need the use of a lot of magic to do it. the resulting child would porbly have an easier time breeding with elvs. and half Elves but may have a harder time breading with humans. The easiest way to do the children, is I would make the child take after one parent or the other. so state wise the child would be human or elf.... maybe with a longer then human life span and a few other traits.... And before you tell me that s not posable my daughter, favers me in complexion and bone structer I am cocasion (mostly frank and scot) and her mother is Latino

[Ravenwing]

well.........i think the main reason why Cross breeding is not usually written in the books is more due to complication then balance.

In which case they would have to create a genetic dominance chart or a Traits chart based on the mixes.....very odd indeed. and so fricken annoyingly complicated.

anyways......thats how i would do it lol

You realize there's a book that covers all of this already?

The unlawful book of Carnal Knowledge.
As well as
The guide to erotic fantasy.

[pblackcrow]

Which is why I would limit it, I think human elf parings would be posable, but here is the catch it would may need the use of a lot of magic to do it. the resulting child would porbly have an easier time breeding with elvs. and half Elves but may have a harder time breading with humans. The easiest way to do the children, is I would make the child take after one parent or the other. so state wise the child would be human or elf.... maybe with a longer then human life span and a few other traits.... And before you tell me that s not posable my daughter, favers me in complexion and bone structer I am cocasion (mostly frank and scot) and her mother is Latino

I would say that your daughter never sun burns, but tans easy...am I right? And when she does it's even? I have friends that are the same way,

[tmikesecrist3]

Shes going to be a year old this mouth, she tans about as easy as I do and I tan fairly easyly but she does not get as dark as her grand father or uncles

[Cinos]

And before you tell me that s not posable my daughter, favers me in complexion and bone structer I am cocasion (mostly frank and scot) and her mother is Latino

I didn't realize Latino where radically genetically different than Caucasians, like radically different aging patterns and bone structure norms. Before you tell people it's couldn't possibly be impossible, realize humans and elves are clearly more distantly related (if they are at all), than Caucasians and Latino, which are the same species. Elven and human crossbreeding is much more like trying to breed Tigers and Hyenas. It might be possible, but the offspring is rarely some idealized mix.

[tmikesecrist3]

Oh I did not say any thing about it being easy, or even that there may not be problems with the mix. Mythological speaking the pairing is posable. though rare. in fact in some of the myths both humans and elves have the same mother, elves being the elder children of Danu, humans being the younger.. I know the myths speak of a goddess but it could be more medfor then any thing, but in my games I play a lot with myths so there you have it.

[Justthis Guy]

I think I recall reading a thing by Kitsune on her web pages where she developed a half elf/human. It did involve lots of magic or some other special circumstances, like they were both in a druid animal form or something when impregnated. It was creative and she made a plausible argument with in the cannon law.

Myself . . I just decided, "Why not?" and have the half elf and half orc characters available as races. The physical similarities are close enough in both, but I do have it such that there are racial mistrust of them from both seed races. They are misfits racially.