Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

[Killer Cyborg]

Or 3. He didn't have a clue what he wanted to do with Japan yet so he wrote through Erin Tarn that it was destroyed leaving it so that if he wanted to come back to it later and actually do something with it he could, and just say she was only writing the rumors she had heard, or he could leave it as she said, destroyed and not bother.

Daniel Stoker

I choose door #3, Monty.

Saying something was destroyed is not a great way to leave it open to further development.
If that's what he had intended, the would have lumped it in with "Australia and the rest of the world".

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually, this brings up another important note, that is typically agreed upon by many:

Who cares what Erin Tarn says?

Nobody, technically. She doesn't exist.
We do care what Kevin Siembieda said though. The fact that he use Erin Tarn to describe the world of Rifts Earth doesn't mean that he's not the one who originally wrote that Japan was destroyed.

[RainOfSteel]

Actually she didn't write it down. Someone else did. She refused to sanction it because she was unsure how much of her knowledge contained therein was correct. As is the case with Japan it was not or at least out of date.

She didn't publish it, but the words were hers. There is no indication it was edited by the rogue publisher, only assembled.

Otherwise, I guess we can say it's all wrong, and that we should believe none of it at all.

In this matter, you have to pick. Either believe it was ET's words, or believe that the publisher edited her words substantially, altering their meaning. Once even a part of it has been subject to that treatment, we, the reader, can no longer trust it. Since the ET's RMB section was the only world information available at the beginning of it all, I prefer not to point at and say, "Ha ha! It fooled everyone!" That would be exceptionally lame.

In case my personal position is not clear:

-- I believe she can have made mistakes in her RMB material, but that she probably got most of it right (with at least one notable point being quite wrong, as I pointed out previously).
-- I believe ET wrote what she thought was true, and noted what she thought was rumor. However, she may have gotten either of those parts wrong.
-- I personally do not believe her information on Japan was mistaken (Although I sort of liked WB8, I don't personally use it).
-- I also believe that ET was KS speaking to us, the gamers reading the RMB. It was a "cover" personality used to convey the world information, and all the claptrap about ET's possible fallibility and the rogue publisher were just color splashed onto it.

PB makes quite a habit, in all of its books, of saying X about some subject, but also maybe Y and Z about that, as well, and hey, nobody knows for sure. I can't tell you how happy I'd be if they stopped being wishy-washy like that. It would tighten up plenty of writing, and I'm quite capable of changing what I like without having to rely on the authors pointing it out to me every three pages. This style is injected somewhat, but somewhat not, for an achievement of vague results, into many of ET's RMB statements.

[cornholioprime]

Gaps in knowledge equal errors.

I assume that you support the Intelligent Design Theory, then...?

I mean, since there are gaps in our knowledge regarding evolution, that would (by your logic) equal errors in the theory...?

[BEGIN Temporary Thread De-rail]

I do, tentatively.

To me, the Earth is NOT "just" 6,000 years old and the Fossil Record CLEARLY shows many instances of evolution from simpler Life Forms.

At the same time (to me again), Both Biological Life as witnessed on this Planet, as well as the underlying Quantum Structure of the Physical Universe, are FAR too complicated and intricate to be the work of pure, Random Chance.

On top of ALL THAT, there absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the Physical Matter that makes up all of us is self-originating from nothingness.


[END Temporary Thread De-rail]

[vitae_drinker]

Personally I think Erin Tarn puffs alot of the cheeba and she probably didnt know exactly what she wrote in the first place, let alone what she really saw if ya know what I mean?

"HEY, ya greedy cyberknight! Puff puff give baby!!! PUFF PUFF GIVE!" -Erin Tarn-

Barney

Yeah, I have to agree that Kevin Siem--

Uh...

Erin Tarn, yeah, has his..um, I mean her fun with the weed.

[Dr. Doom III]

Lack of complete knowledge does not mean errors in what was actually written.

It was incomplete.
She didn't know that Japan had a new empire rebuilt after the destruction and subsqusant migration and that pre Rifts cities were rifted in.

Can't get more incomplete then that.

Again, you seem to be claiming that KS always intended for there to be an empire there along with pre-rifts cities.
There is no basis for this claim.
IF he had any intentions for Japan other than what Tarn said, then it would logically have been indicated somehow. Either by pointing out that Tarn was working off of rumors, or by lumping Japan in with places that she knows nothing about.

Not necessarily.
It adds colour for some stuff to be dead wrong. It adds to the "we really don't know much about the world" feel of the game.

[Dr. Doom III]

She didn't publish it, but the words were hers. There is no indication it was edited by the rogue publisher, only assembled.

And she didn't trust her information enough to put her name on it.

[Killer Cyborg]

Lack of complete knowledge does not mean errors in what was actually written.

It was incomplete.
She didn't know that Japan had a new empire rebuilt after the destruction and subsqusant migration and that pre Rifts cities were rifted in.

Can't get more incomplete then that.

Again, you seem to be claiming that KS always intended for there to be an empire there along with pre-rifts cities.
There is no basis for this claim.
IF he had any intentions for Japan other than what Tarn said, then it would logically have been indicated somehow. Either by pointing out that Tarn was working off of rumors, or by lumping Japan in with places that she knows nothing about.

Not necessarily.
It adds colour for some stuff to be dead wrong. It adds to the "we really don't know much about the world" feel of the game.

So that brings us back here:

So if he later decided to have Florida and Georgia filled with butterflies instead of dinosaurs, this would have fallen "completely within that original intent"...?
Or if Mexico lacked vampires...?
Or if Tolkien was a fascist regime who hated mages more than the CS...?

I mean, Tarn was our only source for any of those aspects of Rifts Earth and following your argument none of what she said really indicated the intent of the author.... because it wasn't supposed to be 100% correct....

Not really because those areas had details. An occasional detail can be wrong but not 100% wrong. If you don't know what's there or what is going to be there you put nothing there.

Tarn's description of Japan had details.
1. Quiet.
2. Wilderness.
3. Chain of islands.
4. Destroyed in the apocalypse.

The fact that these were the only details worth mentioning shows that there was nothing else significant going on.

What, you think that KS wrote that passage while thinking, "I can always add in a high-tech city and a bunch of other kewl stuff! I mean, I never specifically said that there wasn't other stuff there...."

Only this time I'll add in:

IF the intent was to add color by having Erin Tarn be wrong (which doesn't seem likely considering the way KS treats her in general) then WHY would things in RUE be retconned with Tarn now saying that she had never been to Japan and was only going off of rumors?
Doesn't that go against the idea of deliberately making Tarn wrong in order to "add color"...?

[Killer Cyborg]

She didn't publish it, but the words were hers. There is no indication it was edited by the rogue publisher, only assembled.

And she didn't trust her information enough to put her name on it.

Again, if you read the Rifts book, Tarn didn't distrust her information.
She just knew that it wasn't complete; it had gaps.
Not errors.

[Jesterzzn]

Dang KC, its just a game.


I'm KIDDING. Please don't hit me.

[Dr. Doom III]

Only this time I'll add in:

IF the intent was to add color by having Erin Tarn be wrong (which doesn't seem likely considering the way KS treats her in general) then WHY would things in RUE be retconned with Tarn now saying that she had never been to Japan and was only going off of rumors?
Doesn't that go against the idea of deliberately making Tarn wrong in order to "add color"...?

Since she never wrote the book she couldn't have said she was only going off of rumors.
So going by the information that we have it was probably from a letter where she never said it was a rumor (most likely unsourced at all) or really old info and was printed as fact by someone who didn't know better.

Clearly the preface says she will not take credit for the book because it could be wrong and if it's 100% correct then it looks rather dumb.

[Dr. Doom III]

She didn't publish it, but the words were hers. There is no indication it was edited by the rogue publisher, only assembled.

And she didn't trust her information enough to put her name on it.

Again, if you read the Rifts book, Tarn didn't distrust her information.
She just knew that it wasn't complete; it had gaps.
Not errors.

Same Difference.

[RainOfSteel]

I know that this thread is like, 25 pages or whatever, but couldn't people scroll through? I feel like we are saying the same thing over and over and over again. Maybe read through all of the posts instead of just posting something that has been posted a million times before and refuted a million times before?

Seraphim, it's called pig-headed stubbornness.

And besides, I pretty much remember the previous posts of this topic. And if you'll recall, I have posted several times, "This has been stated and re-stated." So, I was pretty much acknowledging this fact many pages ago.

[RainOfSteel]

She didn't publish it, but the words were hers. There is no indication it was edited by the rogue publisher, only assembled.

And she didn't trust her information enough to put her name on it.

It wasn't a trust issue with her belief in the quality of what she knew, it was a courage issue.

[RainOfSteel]

Dang KC, its just a game.


I'm KIDDING. Please don't hit me.

PC +1 and PC +1

[RainOfSteel]

Since she never wrote the book she couldn't have said she was only going off of rumors.

D'oh! That's a pretty good point.

[Killer Cyborg]

Only this time I'll add in:

IF the intent was to add color by having Erin Tarn be wrong (which doesn't seem likely considering the way KS treats her in general) then WHY would things in RUE be retconned with Tarn now saying that she had never been to Japan and was only going off of rumors?
Doesn't that go against the idea of deliberately making Tarn wrong in order to "add color"...?

Since she never wrote the book she couldn't have said she was only going off of rumors.

???
You must have missed the dozens of places where she specified when she was going off of rumors...

So going by the information that we have it was probably from a letter where she never said it was a rumor (most likely unsourced at all) or really old info and was printed as fact by someone who didn't know better.

Nope.
Tarn was meticulous in her letters (and whatever else the book was compiled from) and always mentioned when she was repeating rumors or secondhand info.

Clearly the preface says she will not take credit for the book because it could be wrong and if it's 100% correct then it looks rather dumb.

No, it does NOT say that.
It says that there are gaps in her knowledge.
Like her lack of knowledge about "Australia and the rest of the world."

[Killer Cyborg]

She didn't publish it, but the words were hers. There is no indication it was edited by the rogue publisher, only assembled.

And she didn't trust her information enough to put her name on it.

Again, if you read the Rifts book, Tarn didn't distrust her information.
She just knew that it wasn't complete; it had gaps.
Not errors.

Same Difference.

Not at all.
Einstein had gaps in his knowledge. For example, he did not know exactly why gravity existed.
This does not mean that his theories contained errors.

I personally do not know how a television works. That is a gap in my personal knowledge. It does not mean that I am in error in my knowledge of what shows are on and how to work a remote control.

Gaps are NOT errors.

[RainOfSteel]

Since she never wrote the book she couldn't have said she was only going off of rumors.

I'm aware of those statements by ET.

But she also says she didn't write the book.

It is something of a contradiction.

Methinks there is something smelly in the state of Chi-Town.

-------------------------------------------

Hmm, maybe the whole "rogue publisher" thing was really a ruse, and never happened.

ET's way of getting her stuff into print without having to take responsibility for its publication?

[Killer Cyborg]

Since she never wrote the book she couldn't have said she was only going off of rumors.

I'm aware of those statements by ET.

But she also says she didn't write the book.

It is something of a contradiction.

Methinks there is something smelly in the state of Chi-Town.

Actually, Kevin Siembieda tells us (as I believe I have pointed out before) on p. 137:
"What follows is a brief world overview written by historian and explorer, Erin Tarn."

The words were hers, compiled by somebody else.

[Dr. Doom III]

Not at all.
Einstein had gaps in his knowledge. For example, he did not know exactly why gravity existed.
This does not mean that his theories contained errors.

I personally do not know how a television works. That is a gap in my personal knowledge. It does not mean that I am in error in my knowledge of what shows are on and how to work a remote control.

Gaps are NOT errors.

But if you said that TVs use vacume tubes that would have been correct at one time but not anymore. That's a gap in your knowledge. Just like at one time she was 100% correct but not anymore.

An error caused by a gap.

[RainOfSteel]

Actually, Kevin Siembieda tells us (as I believe I have pointed out before) on p. 137:
"What follows is a brief world overview written by historian and explorer, Erin Tarn."

The words were hers, compiled by somebody else.

But the trouble is, in this case, is that this requires me to believe that ET was writing for publication in ordinary letters, and this simply does not happen.

I like my idea. She really did write it, and the rogue publisher (whoever it was), never existed.

EDIT-------------------
And by "really did write it", I meant, "she personally had it published".

[Killer Cyborg]

Not at all.
Einstein had gaps in his knowledge. For example, he did not know exactly why gravity existed.
This does not mean that his theories contained errors.

I personally do not know how a television works. That is a gap in my personal knowledge. It does not mean that I am in error in my knowledge of what shows are on and how to work a remote control.

Gaps are NOT errors.

But if you said that TVs use vacume tubes that would have been correct at one time but not anymore. That's a gap in your knowledge. Just like at one time she was 100% correct but not anymore.

An error caused by a gap.

No.
Claiming that TVs use vacuum tubes would be an error.
It may be caused by a gap, but that does not mean that all gaps lead to errors.
In Tarn's case, she was aware of the gaps and she noted them where present. She did not note it in the case of Japan, as I have repeatedly pointed out.

In any case, all of that is in-game.
Out of game, it still seems like you're claiming that KS wrote things with the intention of Tarn being wrong... and I see nothing to indicate that.
All signs point to Tarn being his golden-girl who doesn't make major mistakes... so it's implausible that he would set her up for mistakes like that.

This is further shown by the fact that RUE fixes her "mistakes" by updating her knowledge to reflect all the changes since the original book. If KS intended for Tarn's knowledge to be flawed, why would he correct it?

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually, Kevin Siembieda tells us (as I believe I have pointed out before) on p. 137:
"What follows is a brief world overview written by historian and explorer, Erin Tarn."

The words were hers, compiled by somebody else.

But the trouble is, in this case, is that this requires me to believe that ET was writing for publication in ordinary letters, and this simply does not happen.

Why would it mean that she was writing for publication?

[Dustin Fireblade]

I have to ask, to everyone so far involved, and it may have been asked but I'm not checking:

Why is this important?

[RainOfSteel]

Actually, Kevin Siembieda tells us (as I believe I have pointed out before) on p. 137:
"What follows is a brief world overview written by historian and explorer, Erin Tarn."

The words were hers, compiled by somebody else.

But the trouble is, in this case, is that this requires me to believe that ET was writing for publication in ordinary letters, and this simply does not happen.

Why would it mean that she was writing for publication?

Because, when one writes letters between friends, absolute accuracy is not always maintained (with the sole exception of formal letters related to business, etc.). Statements are made as if they were absolutes when they may very well have only rumor or innuendo or personal beliefs as a basis. Accuracy is far less important than when writing for publication.

You mentioned that she meticulously wrote every letter with absolute precision and accuracy of details. I simply find this impossible to believe.

That is why my current position is that Traversing Our Modern World contains letters and other material not only written by ET, but arranged and edited for publication by ET, as well. Sort of a "Rifts" secret that never came out, until now, .

[RainOfSteel]

I have to ask, to everyone so far involved, and it may have been asked but I'm not checking:

Why is this important?

Because we like to read the words we write?

No, really. KC has stated, on numerous posts throughout this topic its purpose and the importance of the subject to him.

Things are getting pretty interesting at this point, too. Doom has made an excellent point about Traversing Our Modern World that I had never realized before now. That alone was worth the rest of the topic to me. You just never know when gems like that are going to pop up out of the woodwork.

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually, Kevin Siembieda tells us (as I believe I have pointed out before) on p. 137:
"What follows is a brief world overview written by historian and explorer, Erin Tarn."

The words were hers, compiled by somebody else.

But the trouble is, in this case, is that this requires me to believe that ET was writing for publication in ordinary letters, and this simply does not happen.

Why would it mean that she was writing for publication?

Because, when one writes letters between friends, absolute accuracy is not always maintained (with the sole exception of formal letters related to business, etc.).

1. Depends on the person. I always go for absolute accuracy.

2. Formal letters to scholars in Lazlo who paid her (in one form or another) to scout things out and report back.
Rifts, p. 137
"I still can not believe that I have let you rascals buy me (or more to the point, my services) for the price of saft passage to England..."
"But enough of my schoolgirl musings, let me set about the task of chronicling my journeys. I will begin with a summary outline and elaborate on the places and points which seem to most deserve it in other chapters."

[Killer Cyborg]

I have to ask, to everyone so far involved, and it may have been asked but I'm not checking:

Why is this important?

Asked and answered earlier:

Just a quick question, and i don't mean to be a smart ass, but what does it matter what his original intent was? Everything that has come out has his seal of approval AND has seen the work of his hand (except Manuhunter)

It's not a big deal, or rather it shouldn't be.

What happens is this:
I complain when a change (to the setting or the rules) is made.
People get offended and come out of the woodwork claiming that no actual change has been made.

For example, I personally think that the Japan book should never have been written. I think that having a significant lack of Japan is something that made Rifts Earth unique in futuristic quasi-cyberpunk settings. I got sick to death of cyber-ninjas back when Robocop III came out, and Street Samurai became a fast cliche after Shadowrun and other cyberpunk games got ahold of the idea.

Now all of that is my opinion, and I should be free to express my opinion here... just as people should be free to disagree with my opinion.
Ideally, we can all have a fun little discussion (or argument) over the quality of the book (or, in other cases, the rule/etc).

BUT it's hard to have any decent conversation when people are so eager to defend Palladium that they try to rewrite history by claiming that there has been no change.
That does nobody any good.. it only serves to waste time and bog down productive communication.

For example, YOU happen to like Rifts Japan. A lot of people do. I don't agree with that position, but I can certainly respect it.
You and I could, theoretically, chat about the book. I could point out all the many problems with the book and you could point out many of the things that you like about the book.
We could share, and learn.

This happened recently between Preacher (somebody whom I constantly disagree with) and I in a discussion about CS Armor (New Style vs. Old Style). I hate the new armor and love the original. Preacher has the opposite view.
We discussed it a bit (and likely will discuss it more) and he pointed out that the mouthpiece on the old armor looks pretty funky.
I never noticed it before, really... but I found myself agreeing with him on this aspect (though not the argument overall).
It's a nice conversation and people on both sides have a chance to learn from the other.

This would not be possible if Preacher had jumped up and claimed, "There has been no change. The CS armor is the same now as it originally was. You're just mistaken."

Same with Japan.
Maybe there's some good in that book that I'm missing... but I likely won't find out because every time the subject comes up, somebody crawls out of the woodwork to argue that there has been no change... that KS always intended for Rifts Japan to be populated, etc. etc.

And we end up arguing about whether or not the fictional character of Erin Tarn was mistaken or not, rather than spending the time on something more worthwhile.

And it was the same with the old "Two Attacks For Living" rule...
I say "Why was there a change?"
Somebody says, "There wasn't a change. It's always been that way."
I say "Then why does every NPC, sample character, and sample combat in the main book ignore those two attacks?"
They say, "Because not every NPC uses the same rules for character creation that player characters do."
I point out why that's nonsense.
And we get into a prolonged debate about whether or not that rule has always existed instead of a discussion about the particular merits and flaws of that rule.

Basically, the whole "It's always been that way" nonsense disrupts and derails interesting conversations. That's how this thread started, by the way... I, in another thread, mentioned in passing Japan having changed from the original version and somebody felt the need to "call me on it".
I see it as symptomatic of the over-zealousness that some Palladium super-fans have... they feel such a strong desire to defend their favorite company that they do more damage than good.
As I said, talking to KS about things was an extremely refreshing change.
He argued that he likes Rifts Japan, and he listened why I don't like it.
Whether or not it was his original vision never came up, except for me mentioning that I prefered Japan the way it originally was (not there).
We had a nice conversation, we both (hopefully) learned something new, and we moved on to other fun conversations.

Just a quick question, and i don't mean to be a smart ass, but what does it matter what his original intent was? Everything that has come out has his seal of approval AND has seen the work of his hand (except Manuhunter)

And if you're asking why I personally care what his original vision is, that's easy.

Because I LOVE the world of Rifts as it was originally presented.
Unfortunately, the writers keep changing things.
Whether or not KS approves of it is irrelevent... the fact that George Lucas approved Episodes I-III does not mean that they are worthy prequels.

When Rifts first came out, things were original. Vampires in Mexico, bugmen to the north, dinosaurs in Florida, etc.
But after a bit, the quality and originality went sharply downhill.
Every nation (most of which didn't need to be covered in the first place) got a book full of stereotypes for that area.
England got knights, South America got Conquistadors, Canada got Mounties, and (of course) Japan got cyber-ninjas.

And it still bugs me that they spent the effort on writing a book about a place that was destroyed. There were (and are) plenty of places mentioned by Erin Tarn in the main book as being populated and important in the world that STILL don't have worldbooks... I've been waiting for over a decade for Madhaven (now covered, thank you), Dinosaur Swamps (Thanks, Todd Yoho!), Shaedo, and a dozen other places in the main book.
Heck, Chi-Town is STILL a huge blank spot (although the Burbs are getting covered), and it's the most significant place in north America!

So it bugged me (and still does) that Palladium went out of its way to detail some place that was supposed to no longer exist (and that is on the other side of the planet from the action), in order to toss in a bunch of mega-cliches... when all the places that I (and others) have been looking forward to for YEARS went unaddressed and ignored.

But that's all discussion for another thread.
Start one up about the quality of the Rifts Japan book, if you like...

[Dustin Fireblade]

I have to ask, to everyone so far involved, and it may have been asked but I'm not checking:

Why is this important?

Because we like to read the words we write?

No, really. KC has stated, on numerous posts throughout this topoic its purpose and the importance of the subject to him.

Things are getting pretty interesting at this point, too. Doom has made an excellent point about Traversing Our Modern World that I had never realized before now. That alone was worth the rest of the topic to me. You just never know when gems like that are going to pop up out of the woodwork.

Well I suppose if its a slow day sometime I'll get around to it. I think both KC and Doom are excellent debators but this one had me scratching my head.

[RainOfSteel]

2. Formal letters to scholars in Lazlo who paid her (in one form or another) to scout things out and report back.
Rifts, p. 137
"I still can not believe that I have let you rascals buy me (or more to the point, my services) for the price of saft passage to England..."
"But enough of my schoolgirl musings, let me set about the task of chronicling my journeys. I will begin with a summary outline and elaborate on the places and points which seem to most deserve it in other chapters."

Capital! This is evidence that she was paid to write the material, and it had nothing to do with letters at all. She was really writing for publication in the first place, and she knew in advance who the publisher was. Very interesting.

[Dr. Doom III]

No.
Claiming that TVs use vacuum tubes would be an error.
It may be caused by a gap, but that does not mean that all gaps lead to errors.
In Tarn's case, she was aware of the gaps and she noted them where present. She did not note it in the case of Japan, as I have repeatedly pointed out.

She knew that gaps were possible. It never says she knows or knew where they were.

In any case, all of that is in-game.
Out of game, it still seems like you're claiming that KS wrote things with the intention of Tarn being wrong... and I see nothing to indicate that.
All signs point to Tarn being his golden-girl who doesn't make major mistakes... so it's implausible that he would set her up for mistakes like that.

This is further shown by the fact that RUE fixes her "mistakes" by updating her knowledge to reflect all the changes since the original book. If KS intended for Tarn's knowledge to be flawed, why would he correct it?

Clearly he wrote it so any changes can and would be thought of a gap in Tarn's knowledge. So it never was intended as some sort of unchangeable model.

You say it's not his original vision I say his original vision was not set in stone.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Clearly he wrote it so any changes can and would be thought of a gap in Tarn's knowledge. So it never was intended as some sort of unchangeable model.

You say it's not his original vision I say his original vision was not set in stone.

Reading Kevin Siembieda's intro in Japan I have to agree.

[Killer Cyborg]

No.
Claiming that TVs use vacuum tubes would be an error.
It may be caused by a gap, but that does not mean that all gaps lead to errors.
In Tarn's case, she was aware of the gaps and she noted them where present. She did not note it in the case of Japan, as I have repeatedly pointed out.

She knew that gaps were possible. It never says she knows or knew where they were.

Except for all the places where she points out the gaps in her knowldedge.

In any case, all of that is in-game.
Out of game, it still seems like you're claiming that KS wrote things with the intention of Tarn being wrong... and I see nothing to indicate that.
All signs point to Tarn being his golden-girl who doesn't make major mistakes... so it's implausible that he would set her up for mistakes like that.

This is further shown by the fact that RUE fixes her "mistakes" by updating her knowledge to reflect all the changes since the original book. If KS intended for Tarn's knowledge to be flawed, why would he correct it?

Clearly he wrote it so any changes can and would be thought of a gap in Tarn's knowledge. So it never was intended as some sort of unchangeable model.

There are lots of places where what you say is clearly true.
The places where Tarn is working off of rumors or where she doesn't know what's going on.
Japan is not one of those cases.

You say it's not his original vision I say his original vision was not set in stone.

Nothing in Rifts is set in stone. It's set in ink.
Mage casting time, the population of chi-town, the workings of the C-12, the number of attacks for a starting character, what type of armor mages can wear and why, and many, many other aspects of the game were apparently not written in stone.
That does not change his original intention when he wrote the words and set them to ink.

[Killer Cyborg]

Clearly he wrote it so any changes can and would be thought of a gap in Tarn's knowledge. So it never was intended as some sort of unchangeable model.

You say it's not his original vision I say his original vision was not set in stone.

Reading Kevin Siembieda's intro in Japan I have to agree.

Interesting.
Quote the relevent passages.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Clearly he wrote it so any changes can and would be thought of a gap in Tarn's knowledge. So it never was intended as some sort of unchangeable model.

You say it's not his original vision I say his original vision was not set in stone.

Reading Kevin Siembieda's intro in Japan I have to agree.

Interesting.
Quote the relevent passages.

Don't have it with me at the moment, but basically it sounds like he was not sure what direction he wanted to go with Japan initially. Since Japan has everything from ninja's and samurai to ultra-tech he decided to "go with everything including the kitchen borg" (I may have misquoted that but I think that was the gist of it.)

[Mack]

Personally I feel that he uses Tarn so that he can change directions in the future. Tarn gives him a literary device to convey the information without chaining the landscape to a particular description, since all of it is her observations. Even if she does visit a location first-hand, that still doesn't mean her writing is 100% correct. It also (and more importantly) allows GM's some creative freedom in adjusting the Rifts world to suit their gaming table without truely breaking from canon.

Think about KS's "all rules are optional" philosophy and how it fits with Tarn's world description. It gives everyone (the writers, GM's, and players) tremendous freedom.

[cornholioprime]

Clearly he wrote it so any changes can and would be thought of a gap in Tarn's knowledge. So it never was intended as some sort of unchangeable model.

You say it's not his original vision I say his original vision was not set in stone.

Reading Kevin Siembieda's intro in Japan I have to agree.

Sorry, Dustin.

While I'd LOVE to claim that the preface to Rifts: Japan is an Argument for our "side," there is simply nothing there that speaks to EITHER side of this Debate.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Clearly he wrote it so any changes can and would be thought of a gap in Tarn's knowledge. So it never was intended as some sort of unchangeable model.

You say it's not his original vision I say his original vision was not set in stone.

Reading Kevin Siembieda's intro in Japan I have to agree.

Sorry, Dustin.

While I'd LOVE to claim that the preface to Rifts: Japan is an Argument for our "side," there is simply nothing there that speaks to EITHER side of this Debate.

You could be right. I'd submit though that Kevin was working on idea's for Rifts Japan (among others) from the beginning of Rifts. Since it seems that he had some difficulty in deciding what to include, I think it reinforces Doom's comment.

[cornholioprime]

Clearly he wrote it so any changes can and would be thought of a gap in Tarn's knowledge. So it never was intended as some sort of unchangeable model.

You say it's not his original vision I say his original vision was not set in stone.

Reading Kevin Siembieda's intro in Japan I have to agree.

Sorry, Dustin.

While I'd LOVE to claim that the preface to Rifts: Japan is an Argument for our "side," there is simply nothing there that speaks to EITHER side of this Debate.

You could be right. I'd submit though that Kevin was working on idea's for Rifts Japan (among others) from the beginning of Rifts. Since it seems that he had some difficulty in deciding what to include, I think it reinforces Doom's comment.

You and Doom and myself as well.

Hence the ambiguous Phrasing of Japan's fate.

He could have EASILY had Erin Tarn say, in clear terms, "there's nothing left" if he wanted to definitively keep PA Japan uninhabited.

This doesn't even take into account Erin Tarn's "inaccuracies," which, again, I personally believe to be deliberate Plot Devices introduced by KevSim to leave himself an out if he ever decided to write more World Books in the future.

Remember, this IS the same Erin Tarn that states with 100% certainty of conviction that Splugorth Slavers ARE Splugorth, and that the Federation of Magic is based in Ohio.......

[Killer Cyborg]

Hence the ambiguous Phrasing of Japan's fate.

He could have EASILY had Erin Tarn say, in clear terms, "there's nothing left" if he wanted to definitively keep PA Japan uninhabited.

He clearly said that it is a quiet little cluster of wilderness islands.
If he'd been any clearer, you'd likely be claiming that as proof of reverse phsychology.

This doesn't even take into account Erin Tarn's "inaccuracies," which, again, I personally believe to be deliberate Plot Devices introduced by KevSim to leave himself an out if he ever decided to write more World Books in the future.

Remember, this IS the same Erin Tarn that states with 100% certainty of conviction that Splugorth Slavers ARE Splugorth, and that the Federation of Magic is based in Ohio.......

At the time it was written, it was true.
It was later changed.

Once again (because I still have not recieved a response):

IF KS wants (and wanted) Tarn's descriptions to be inaccurate, Why did he fix the descriptions in RUE!!??

[vitae_drinker]

Hence the ambiguous Phrasing of Japan's fate.

He could have EASILY had Erin Tarn say, in clear terms, "there's nothing left" if he wanted to definitively keep PA Japan uninhabited.

He clearly said that it is a quiet little cluster of wilderness islands.
If he'd been any clearer, you'd likely be claiming that as proof of reverse phsychology.

This doesn't even take into account Erin Tarn's "inaccuracies," which, again, I personally believe to be deliberate Plot Devices introduced by KevSim to leave himself an out if he ever decided to write more World Books in the future.

Remember, this IS the same Erin Tarn that states with 100% certainty of conviction that Splugorth Slavers ARE Splugorth, and that the Federation of Magic is based in Ohio.......

At the time it was written, it was true.
It was later changed.

Once again (because I still have not recieved a response):

IF KS wants (and wanted) Tarn's descriptions to be inaccurate, Why did he fix the descriptions in RUE!!??

To give the conspiracy theorists something to talk about.

*Sigh*

I miss the Tank vs Giant Robot debate on Robotech...

At least that was interesting.

[Killer Cyborg]

If there is anything about the material in the original Rifts book that prompts you to think, "Something interesting must be in Japan!", then by all means, let's hear what exactly it is that makes you think that.

The fact that nobody knew anything about anywhere, that even Erin Tarn only seemed to know fragments and rumors of what was going on, and adventure and exploration were around every corner. I think there's probably something interesting in every part of RIFTs Earth, which is one of the things I LOVE about it! So, to answer your question concisely - it's on RIFTs Earth, and no one, not even Erin Tarn seems to have more than a foggy idea of what's going on there, but there's amazing things happening everywhere!

Okay, so what it really is is that you have this belief in your head that every part of Rifts Earth must have something really interesting going on, so whenever the canon material presents anything contrary to that belief, you assume that it must be incorrect?

There are amazing things everywhere, therefore if Tarn says that nothing is going on, she must not know what she's talking about.
Yes?

You DO know that samurai, high-tech cities, villages and communities of any note, and even ninjas, are larger than a centimeter?

...and yet are small enough that simply by arriving in Japan, you could completely miss seeing them, kind of like how I could visit the United States, but manage to not see the Grand Canyon, or indeed, any canyon or desert at all, despite America being full of them.

You are aware that the remnants of post-apocalyptic Japan are much, much, much, much, much smaller than America, correct?

Specifically, Japan is currently 144,689 sq. miles.
The contiguous US is 3,119,884.69 square miles.

Comparing the exploration of the US to the exploration of the remnants of a "little cluster of islands" is absurd.

You can try to claim that it would make sense for Tarn to have hopped off on one island, looked around, then written her notes and left without further exploration... but that only works if you assume that Tarn is incompetent.

[Proseksword]

Okay, so what it really is is that you have this belief in your head that every part of Rifts Earth must have something really interesting going on, so whenever the canon material presents anything contrary to that belief, you assume that it must be incorrect?

No, I'd say that the canon material reflects that very few people know much of anything about the world, and even the much vaunted Erin Tarn knows surprisingly little about anything. That, in conjunction with the fact that there are new and miraculous things being discovered (through new books being published) all the time leads me to believe that it is reasonable to be skeptical of any notion to the contrary.

You are aware that the remnants of post-apocalyptic Japan are much, much, much, much, much smaller than America, correct?

Irrelevent. I could have just as easily said France without seeing the Eiffel, or any Tower, or any other geographical location. My point was simply arriving at and being at a geographical area for a few days does not equate to mastery of all knowledge of it.

You can try to claim that it would make sense for Tarn to have hopped off on one island, looked around, then written her notes and left without further exploration... but that only works if you assume that Tarn is incompetent.

If that makes Tarn incompetent, then so be it, I suppose. In her past writings, she's made it clear that her primary method of exploration is simply wandering about and attempting to talk to people - not a bad way to pick up knowledge, but hardly scientific or fool-proof. If she's ever been to Japan, which I find quite unlikely, I don't think it'd be any weirder for her to have arrived in northern Honshu or Hokkaido, spent a few days wandering the wilderness and skipping stones before departing than I do that she arrived in England, visited New Camelot and a Millenneum Tree but didn't do a grid survey of the entire island chain, making sure to document every observed habitation of more than 100 sentient creatures. That's not who Erin Tarn has ever been portayed as.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

all Rifts Japan is missing is Cyber-knight samurais and Psi-Ninjas

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay, so what it really is is that you have this belief in your head that every part of Rifts Earth must have something really interesting going on, so whenever the canon material presents anything contrary to that belief, you assume that it must be incorrect?

No, I'd say that the canon material reflects that very few people know much of anything about the world, and even the much vaunted Erin Tarn knows surprisingly little about anything.

The passage in question is discussing all the stuff that Tarn knows, though.
That's why she mentions that she "knows nothing" about Australia and the rest of the world that she did not discuss.

That, in conjunction with the fact that there are new and miraculous things being discovered (through new books being published) all the time leads me to believe that it is reasonable to be skeptical of any notion to the contrary.

We're not talking about other books in this part, though. We're discussing the passages in the original Rifts book solely in the context of that book, because that was my question to you- whether there was anything in that book that indicated that anything at all was going on in Japan.
You took issue with my answer that no, there is absolutely no indication in that book that anything is going on in Japan, but so far your support seems to consist of, in your own words, "I think there's probably something interesting in every part of RIFTs Earth, which is one of the things I LOVE about it!"
Which isn't actually anything IN that book.

My point was simply arriving at and being at a geographical area for a few days does not equate to mastery of all knowledge of it.

When it's a small cluster of quiet wilderness islands, then yeah, it pretty much does.
Sure, if there are hidden underground bunkers or other invisible stuff going on, you won't notice that stuff... but that's not what's in the Rifts: Japan book.

You can try to claim that it would make sense for Tarn to have hopped off on one island, looked around, then written her notes and left without further exploration... but that only works if you assume that Tarn is incompetent.

If that makes Tarn incompetent, then so be it, I suppose. In her past writings, she's made it clear that her primary method of exploration is simply wandering about and attempting to talk to people - not a bad way to pick up knowledge, but hardly scientific or fool-proof.

Again, we're talking about the main book.
If Tarn's methods are discussed, feel free to quote the passage.

If she's ever been to Japan, which I find quite unlikely,

Again, based on the main book, WHY would you find it to be quite unlikely?

I don't think it'd be any weirder for her to have arrived in northern Honshu or Hokkaido, spent a few days wandering the wilderness and skipping stones before departing than I do that she arrived in England, visited New Camelot and a Millenneum Tree but didn't do a grid survey of the entire island chain, making sure to document every observed habitation of more than 100 sentient creatures. That's not who Erin Tarn has ever been portayed as.

Again, Rifts England is not the Rifts book.

[Giant2005]

I don't understand what the problem is? Tarn said Japan was a quiet cluster of wilderness islands or something like that...
What is the problem? She says the entire planet is covered in wilderness. Is the issue the word quiet? Because quiet does not mean devoid of life.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't understand what the problem is? Tarn said Japan was a quiet cluster of wilderness islands or something like that...
What is the problem? She says the entire planet is covered in wilderness. Is the issue the word quiet? Because quiet does not mean devoid of life.

No, but it doesn't mean "mega-damage samurais and ninjas" either.

The impression that the passage gives is that if there are any people living there, they're going to be pretty much small fishing villages and such with no real industry.
Which is not how the Rifts: Japan book portrays things.

And the thing is, we're not even really discussing whether or not this change is a good or a bad thing (though I'm obviously against it) at this point- we're discussing whether or not it IS a change.
If you can read Tarn's original passage, then read the Rifts: Japan book, and you can honestly say, "Yeah, that book is pretty much what I expected when I read that passage," I'm curious how.

[Giant2005]

I don't understand what the problem is? Tarn said Japan was a quiet cluster of wilderness islands or something like that...
What is the problem? She says the entire planet is covered in wilderness. Is the issue the word quiet? Because quiet does not mean devoid of life.

No, but it doesn't mean "mega-damage samurais and ninjas" either.

The impression that the passage gives is that if there are any people living there, they're going to be pretty much small fishing villages and such with no real industry.
Which is not how the Rifts: Japan book portrays things.

And the thing is, we're not even really discussing whether or not this change is a good or a bad thing (though I'm obviously against it) at this point- we're discussing whether or not it IS a change.
If you can read Tarn's original passage, then read the Rifts: Japan book, and you can honestly say, "Yeah, that book is pretty much what I expected when I read that passage," I'm curious how.

Aside from the return of the republic of Japan (which Tarn may have no knowledge of, even if she had been to Japan), that passage does make me think of the feudal Japan we have.
This is all my opinion obviously but I think the term quiet refers to a lack of industrialization which aside from the republic, is exactly what Japan is. When I am driving the countryside, I might refer to some backwater little town as a quiet, little town but that doesn't mean they don't have their own little culture, it just means that they aren't as industrious as what I am familiar with.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

only 1% survived the coming of the rifts in japan, and only 25% of Japanese heritage made it back to japan.

so most of the survivors must have been ninjas and samurais