Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

[Akashic Soldier]

only 1% survived the coming of the rifts in japan, and only 25% of Japanese heritage made it back to japan.

so most of the survivors must have been ninjas and samurais

Did someone say ninja?

(Giant will get it.)

[Mech-Viper Prime]

only 1% survived the coming of the rifts in japan, and only 25% of Japanese heritage made it back to japan.

so most of the survivors must have been ninjas and samurais

Did someone say ninja?

(Giant will get it.)

yup cowboy samurais riding indian ninja dinosaurs

[Akashic Soldier]

yup cowboy samurais riding indian ninja dinosaurs

Considering how good Samurai are on their horses (because of all their tricks) it'd sure be interesting to see Cowboys and Native Americans vs. Samurai and Ninja.

YES, I know that Samurai and Ninja are not a separate people.

[Giant2005]

only 1% survived the coming of the rifts in japan, and only 25% of Japanese heritage made it back to japan.

so most of the survivors must have been ninjas and samurais

Did someone say ninja?

(Giant will get it.)

Doesn't the Ninja rule only come in to play when someone asks a stupid question? Are you implying that this thread is stupid?

See that people? That is how you turn someone's harmless joke into a malicious insult.

[Akashic Soldier]

Doesn't the Ninja rule only come in to play when someone asks a stupid question? Are you implying that this thread is stupid?

See that people? That is how you turn someone's harmless joke into a malicious insult.

*punches Giant in the nose*



I'm-a-malicious!

[The Beast]

What's with the necro-threading KC?

[Shark_Force]

What's with the necro-threading KC?

he linked to it so that instead of re-writing the whole thread one post at a time, he could just refer people here.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't understand what the problem is? Tarn said Japan was a quiet cluster of wilderness islands or something like that...
What is the problem? She says the entire planet is covered in wilderness. Is the issue the word quiet? Because quiet does not mean devoid of life.

No, but it doesn't mean "mega-damage samurais and ninjas" either.

The impression that the passage gives is that if there are any people living there, they're going to be pretty much small fishing villages and such with no real industry.
Which is not how the Rifts: Japan book portrays things.

And the thing is, we're not even really discussing whether or not this change is a good or a bad thing (though I'm obviously against it) at this point- we're discussing whether or not it IS a change.
If you can read Tarn's original passage, then read the Rifts: Japan book, and you can honestly say, "Yeah, that book is pretty much what I expected when I read that passage," I'm curious how.

Aside from the return of the republic of Japan (which Tarn may have no knowledge of, even if she had been to Japan), that passage does make me think of the feudal Japan we have.

Well, it just so happens that I bought a copy of Rifts Japan a while back, to help out Palladium, and for this kind of occasion.

We know that in the main book, Tarn went to Japan, and saw nothing but a quiet little cluster of wilderness islands.

Did Rifts: Japan stick to that concept?

I don't think so, but maybe I have some of the info wrong- I haven't given the book a thorough read lately, and am currently flipping through to refresh my memory on what's there.

The New Empire, which is the rebuilt Japan, and which does not seem to include any of the cities that rifted in around 87 PA, has (Japan, p. 11):
-A total population of 6.8 million people.
-1.2 million in the main city, Kyoto.
-Cities with an average population of 1d6x100,000
-Towns with populations of 1d6x1000
-Villages with populations of 2d6x100
-"Exploded into power around 1 PA!" (Japan, p. 12)
-Have samurai that "represent the omnipresent military" as well as the law.

The capital city, Kyoto, has a 1,000' Millenium Tree, which helps the locals "fend off the oni and other supernatural horrors that plague the island."

So we're looking at a "quiet little cluster of wilderness islands" that has nearly 7 million people in one region, with a large-scale feudal society complete with entire cities and towns, a society that has thrived for over 70 years longer than the CS has even existed, and an omnipresent military, and that has Millenium Tree, and that is plagued by supernatural horrors.
I can't see that description working together with what's actually there.

Also, there is The Zone, where the oni live.
Japan,p. 24
"The few human villages that exist are enslaved by vile supernatural forces that prey on the helpless humans at their leisure. Even the well-trained and equipped warriors of the Republic are at a disadvantage in the areas where large bands of oni and kappa are in control."
Basically, the entire area of The Zone is made up of tribes of supernatural creatures vying for power and dominance, some of the tribes being the equivalent of small armies.
Not exactly quiet.

Japan, p. 27
Place seems to have quite a few ley lines, for an unremarkable area of wilderness islands.

Oh, and here's another gem: The TW Fire-Breathing Arquebus (p. 37).
IIRC, Techno-Wizardry was originally supposed to have been invented in North America (though I cannot currently find the reference). In any case, it's supposed to be relatively rare.
So this quiet backwater has TW items... and Tarn doesn't think it's noteworthy.
Moreover, they have the TW Fire-Breathing Arquebus, which has this passage in its description:
When the first European travelers arrived in Japan, they brought muskets and arequebuses... which greatly impressed the islanders. Japan was manufacturing copies of those weapons in a matter of years.
Japanese alchemists, eta techno-wizards and tech ninja became fascinated with the concept of firearms. They tried to replicate the effect using magic, and succeeded in creating an equivalent weapon by binding fire elementals to metal replicas of European weapons; this may have been one of the first techno-wizard weapons ever created! During the Great Cataclysm, these weapons became powerful mega-damage "guns" and were used by the desperate survivors who eventually formed some of the low-tech shogunates and kingdoms of Japan. They are especially popular among the eta of the Freelands.
Apparently, Pre-Rifts, and pre-European-contact Japan, had technowizards, alchemists, and tech ninjas, and were able to make working SDC TW weapons.
You would think that Tarn might see at least one of those popular TW weapons, ask a few questions about it, and realize that it might have be interesting to her friends back in Lazlo, instead of shrugging, saying, "this sure is a quiet backwater," and moving on with her life.
Yeah, yeah... I agree that it's not definite that she would have necessarily seen one of these things, but the existence of popular techno-wizardry alone should have logically a) been noticed, and b) been mentioned.
This is a chick that mentions rumors of supernatural creatures and magic... and somehow all this stuff in Japan escaped her attention?

Not to mention the RUNE SWORDS. Granted, they're super-rare and priceless... but there are probably more in Japan than in North America. Might be something she'd hear about and/or notice.

Hell, I'll cut this short.
All in all, I see pretty much no chance in hell that Erin Tarn the famous explorer and Scholar would show up in the islands of Japan, and either miss or dismiss all the demons, mystic warriors, magic weapon, large cities, large population of humans and other species, and a 1,000' tall magic tree.

Read over Tarn's descriptions of other areas.
She notes that the technology in France is equal to early 20th century pre-industrial, and that the population is about 4 million humans and 2 million non-humans.
She notes that England has a population of maybe 400k people with another 400k d-bees, scattered about in tiny villages, with the largest having a population of maybe 3k people.
She notes that the population and tech in Spain is about the same as France, only without as many ley lines.

But with Japan, she notes nothing but that it is a small cluster of wilderness islands.
Their low technology would not be a reason for them to be ignored- it sounds about the same as France and Spain.
The fact that they live mostly in villages would not be a reason for them to be ignored- she notes that most of Britain lives in villages, even though they're smaller than those in Japan.

Basically, she notes stuff worth mentioning.
And a thriving, ancient feudal empire with its own millenium tree, with techno-wizardry, with rune weapons, and with a population greater than pretty much anything in Europe other than the NGR + allies... that's something that she would have noticed, and would have made some kind of mention of.

[Giant2005]

I don't understand what the problem is? Tarn said Japan was a quiet cluster of wilderness islands or something like that...
What is the problem? She says the entire planet is covered in wilderness. Is the issue the word quiet? Because quiet does not mean devoid of life.

No, but it doesn't mean "mega-damage samurais and ninjas" either.

The impression that the passage gives is that if there are any people living there, they're going to be pretty much small fishing villages and such with no real industry.
Which is not how the Rifts: Japan book portrays things.

And the thing is, we're not even really discussing whether or not this change is a good or a bad thing (though I'm obviously against it) at this point- we're discussing whether or not it IS a change.
If you can read Tarn's original passage, then read the Rifts: Japan book, and you can honestly say, "Yeah, that book is pretty much what I expected when I read that passage," I'm curious how.

Aside from the return of the republic of Japan (which Tarn may have no knowledge of, even if she had been to Japan), that passage does make me think of the feudal Japan we have.

Well, it just so happens that I bought a copy of Rifts Japan a while back, to help out Palladium, and for this kind of occasion.

We know that in the main book, Tarn went to Japan, and saw nothing but a quiet little cluster of wilderness islands.

Did Rifts: Japan stick to that concept?

I don't think so, but maybe I have some of the info wrong- I haven't given the book a thorough read lately, and am currently flipping through to refresh my memory on what's there.

The New Empire, which is the rebuilt Japan, and which does not seem to include any of the cities that rifted in around 87 PA, has (Japan, p. 11):
-A total population of 6.8 million people.
-1.2 million in the main city, Kyoto.
-Cities with an average population of 1d6x100,000
-Towns with populations of 1d6x1000
-Villages with populations of 2d6x100
-"Exploded into power around 1 PA!" (Japan, p. 12)
-Have samurai that "represent the omnipresent military" as well as the law.

The capital city, Kyoto, has a 1,000' Millenium Tree, which helps the locals "fend off the oni and other supernatural horrors that plague the island."

So we're looking at a "quiet little cluster of wilderness islands" that has nearly 7 million people in one region, with a large-scale feudal society complete with entire cities and towns, a society that has thrived for over 70 years longer than the CS has even existed, and an omnipresent military, and that has Millenium Tree, and that is plagued by supernatural horrors.
I can't see that description working together with what's actually there.

Also, there is The Zone, where the oni live.
Japan,p. 24
"The few human villages that exist are enslaved by vile supernatural forces that prey on the helpless humans at their leisure. Even the well-trained and equipped warriors of the Republic are at a disadvantage in the areas where large bands of oni and kappa are in control."
Basically, the entire area of The Zone is made up of tribes of supernatural creatures vying for power and dominance, some of the tribes being the equivalent of small armies.
Not exactly quiet.

Japan, p. 27
Place seems to have quite a few ley lines, for an unremarkable area of wilderness islands.

Oh, and here's another gem: The TW Fire-Breathing Arquebus (p. 37).
IIRC, Techno-Wizardry was originally supposed to have been invented in North America (though I cannot currently find the reference). In any case, it's supposed to be relatively rare.
So this quiet backwater has TW items... and Tarn doesn't think it's noteworthy.
Moreover, they have the TW Fire-Breathing Arquebus, which has this passage in its description:
When the first European travelers arrived in Japan, they brought muskets and arequebuses... which greatly impressed the islanders. Japan was manufacturing copies of those weapons in a matter of years.
Japanese alchemists, eta techno-wizards and tech ninja became fascinated with the concept of firearms. They tried to replicate the effect using magic, and succeeded in creating an equivalent weapon by binding fire elementals to metal replicas of European weapons; this may have been one of the first techno-wizard weapons ever created! During the Great Cataclysm, these weapons became powerful mega-damage "guns" and were used by the desperate survivors who eventually formed some of the low-tech shogunates and kingdoms of Japan. They are especially popular among the eta of the Freelands.
Apparently, Pre-Rifts, and pre-European-contact Japan, had technowizards, alchemists, and tech ninjas, and were able to make working SDC TW weapons.
You would think that Tarn might see at least one of those popular TW weapons, ask a few questions about it, and realize that it might have be interesting to her friends back in Lazlo, instead of shrugging, saying, "this sure is a quiet backwater," and moving on with her life.
Yeah, yeah... I agree that it's not definite that she would have necessarily seen one of these things, but the existence of popular techno-wizardry alone should have logically a) been noticed, and b) been mentioned.
This is a chick that mentions rumors of supernatural creatures and magic... and somehow all this stuff in Japan escaped her attention?

Not to mention the RUNE SWORDS. Granted, they're super-rare and priceless... but there are probably more in Japan than in North America. Might be something she'd hear about and/or notice.

Hell, I'll cut this short.
All in all, I see pretty much no chance in hell that Erin Tarn the famous explorer and Scholar would show up in the islands of Japan, and either miss or dismiss all the demons, mystic warriors, magic weapon, large cities, large population of humans and other species, and a 1,000' tall magic tree.

Read over Tarn's descriptions of other areas.
She notes that the technology in France is equal to early 20th century pre-industrial, and that the population is about 4 million humans and 2 million non-humans.
She notes that England has a population of maybe 400k people with another 400k d-bees, scattered about in tiny villages, with the largest having a population of maybe 3k people.
She notes that the population and tech in Spain is about the same as France, only without as many ley lines.

But with Japan, she notes nothing but that it is a small cluster of wilderness islands.
Their low technology would not be a reason for them to be ignored- it sounds about the same as France and Spain.
The fact that they live mostly in villages would not be a reason for them to be ignored- she notes that most of Britain lives in villages, even though they're smaller than those in Japan.

Basically, she notes stuff worth mentioning.
And a thriving, ancient feudal empire with its own millenium tree, with techno-wizardry, with rune weapons, and with a population greater than pretty much anything in Europe other than the NGR + allies... that's something that she would have noticed, and would have made some kind of mention of.

The Techno-Wizardry is something the Republic of Japan has access to (in small quantities) not the feudal civilization. If she has visited and it was before the Republic showed up, she wouldn't have anythign to report about TW because at the time, it didn't exist.
I have to assume that she isn't particularly impressed with Millennium Trees... She had a lot to say about England but made no mention of Millennium Trees, if she didn't think they were worth noting there, they aren't worth noting in Japan.
I concede that the sheer population of Japan should be worth mentioning and other than Tarn being sloppy, I can't justify that omission.
About the Oni... Keep in mind that Rifts Earth is prime real estate, Demons and the Supernatural have flocked to the planet in droves and are always seeking to make it their own. In that kind of environment, it is safe to assume that they are everywhere regardless of how "quiet" a civilization is. Our interpretation of the term "quiet" means a low tech, boring little town. On Rifts Earth, it is more likely that their interpretation of "quiet" is a low tech, boring little town plagued by demons.

Also keep in mind that Tarn is far from infallible. She considers Russia a wasteland with generally low tech. That is like Rifting into Center and confusing the place with the PF world.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

this is akin to doing a world book for Las Vegas and putting mobsters, wannable rat pack and other singers in the book, occ lounge singer

[Killer Cyborg]

Oh, and here's another gem: The TW Fire-Breathing Arquebus (p. 37).
IIRC, Techno-Wizardry was originally supposed to have been invented in North America (though I cannot currently find the reference). In any case, it's supposed to be relatively rare.
So this quiet backwater has TW items... and Tarn doesn't think it's noteworthy.
Moreover, they have the TW Fire-Breathing Arquebus, which has this passage in its description:
When the first European travelers arrived in Japan, they brought muskets and arequebuses... which greatly impressed the islanders. Japan was manufacturing copies of those weapons in a matter of years.
Japanese alchemists, eta techno-wizards and tech ninja became fascinated with the concept of firearms. They tried to replicate the effect using magic, and succeeded in creating an equivalent weapon by binding fire elementals to metal replicas of European weapons; this may have been one of the first techno-wizard weapons ever created! During the Great Cataclysm, these weapons became powerful mega-damage "guns" and were used by the desperate survivors who eventually formed some of the low-tech shogunates and kingdoms of Japan. They are especially popular among the eta of the Freelands.
Apparently, Pre-Rifts, and pre-European-contact Japan, had technowizards, alchemists, and tech ninjas, and were able to make working SDC TW weapons.
You would think that Tarn might see at least one of those popular TW weapons, ask a few questions about it, and realize that it might have be interesting to her friends back in Lazlo, instead of shrugging, saying, "this sure is a quiet backwater," and moving on with her life.
Yeah, yeah... I agree that it's not definite that she would have necessarily seen one of these things, but the existence of popular techno-wizardry alone should have logically a) been noticed, and b) been mentioned.
This is a chick that mentions rumors of supernatural creatures and magic... and somehow all this stuff in Japan escaped her attention?

Not to mention the RUNE SWORDS. Granted, they're super-rare and priceless... but there are probably more in Japan than in North America. Might be something she'd hear about and/or notice.

Hell, I'll cut this short.
All in all, I see pretty much no chance in hell that Erin Tarn the famous explorer and Scholar would show up in the islands of Japan, and either miss or dismiss all the demons, mystic warriors, magic weapon, large cities, large population of humans and other species, and a 1,000' tall magic tree.

Read over Tarn's descriptions of other areas.
She notes that the technology in France is equal to early 20th century pre-industrial, and that the population is about 4 million humans and 2 million non-humans.
She notes that England has a population of maybe 400k people with another 400k d-bees, scattered about in tiny villages, with the largest having a population of maybe 3k people.
She notes that the population and tech in Spain is about the same as France, only without as many ley lines.

But with Japan, she notes nothing but that it is a small cluster of wilderness islands.
Their low technology would not be a reason for them to be ignored- it sounds about the same as France and Spain.
The fact that they live mostly in villages would not be a reason for them to be ignored- she notes that most of Britain lives in villages, even though they're smaller than those in Japan.

Basically, she notes stuff worth mentioning.
And a thriving, ancient feudal empire with its own millenium tree, with techno-wizardry, with rune weapons, and with a population greater than pretty much anything in Europe other than the NGR + allies... that's something that she would have noticed, and would have made some kind of mention of.

The Techno-Wizardry is something the Republic of Japan has access to (in small quantities) not the feudal civilization. If she has visited and it was before the Republic showed up, she wouldn't have anythign to report about TW because at the time, it didn't exist.

Reread the passage that I took the time to retype.
TW Arquebuses were invented before the coming of the Rifts, and..
During the Great Cataclysm, these weapons became powerful mega-damage "guns" and were used by the desperate survivors who eventually formed some of the low-tech shogunates and kingdoms of Japan.

That's not the Republic of Japan- they weren't around yet. That's describing the survivors of the apocalypse who went on to form some of the current communities.

They are especially popular among the eta of the Freelands.

Notice that the weapons are popular among the eta.
That's the "lowest of the low" who have a status beneath that of the peasants in the New Empire.
The Freelands are not in the Republic of Japan, btw, they are (Japan, 17) "the rugged wilderness north of Honshu and Little Honshu... These lands are unclaimed and home to wilderness people, adventurers, mercenaries, oni, D-Bees, eta, and other undesirables."
It's at the other end of the main island from the Republic of Japan.

I have to assume that she isn't particularly impressed with Millennium Trees... She had a lot to say about England but made no mention of Millennium Trees, if she didn't think they were worth noting there, they aren't worth noting in Japan.

Remember, the brief passages for key locations in the excerpt we are shown in the main book are later followed by more specific descriptions.
Millennium Trees would be part of the whole "No other place in the world is as rich with magic energy as the island known as England. The entire island is like our Magic Zone."
They're one detail that would be likely explored in a future chapter dedicated to England.

But even if they weren't, all that would mean is that the England book also changes stuff from the original description.
Which it does- I just don't harp on it because pretty much everybody agrees that book was crap.

I concede that the sheer population of Japan should be worth mentioning and other than Tarn being sloppy, I can't justify that omission.

Thank you.

About the Oni... Keep in mind that Rifts Earth is prime real estate, Demons and the Supernatural have flocked to the planet in droves and are always seeking to make it their own. In that kind of environment, it is safe to assume that they are everywhere regardless of how "quiet" a civilization is. Our interpretation of the term "quiet" means a low tech, boring little town. On Rifts Earth, it is more likely that their interpretation of "quiet" is a low tech, boring little town plagued by demons.

I very strongly disagree. In fact, that kind of thinking is one of the main problems with the game, since that kind of perception colors the later books.
Reread Rifts, p. 137.
It describes a North America where lone protectors in power armor or a robot vehicle can protect a town or community from outside threats.
There's the sentence, "If a stranger or invader threatens the kingdom, the champion/protector(s) rises to meet the threat."
That's "IF", not "when" or "whenever."
It's not even a certainty that communities will be threatened.
And that's for actual kingdoms!
There's a note that "the concept of a champion who serves as protector and peacekeeper has been adopted by many towns and villages as well."
"Many" is not "All," or even "Most."

A community in Rifts Earth, in the earlier books especially, could be untroubled by mega-damage monsters for weeks, months, years, or even decades, depending on where they were located.
Though those located in hot zones like the edges of Xiticix territory would run into threats far more often.

Reread the original passages that Tarn writes, and notice how often she refers to monsters and demons as being present- something that she wouldn't do if it were something that one could simply assume.
Monsters and demons are always a possibility on Rifts Earth, but not always common.

Also keep in mind that Tarn is far from infallible. She considers Russia a wasteland with generally low tech. That is like Rifting into Center and confusing the place with the PF world.

No, she states that they are wastelands with generally lower tech.
Whether or not the Russia books change that picture is beside the point.

[Shark_Force]

russia *is* generally low tech. the fact that there are high-tech areas doesn't mean it's not generally low.

in fact, the statement "it is generally low tech" quite obviously implies that there are exceptions to the rule. which there are.

it doesn't change the fact that an extremely large portion of russia consists of people living in log cabins, shacks, etc, and plow the land with a horse or other draft animal. or that sizeable portions of russia get extremely cold for a large portion of the year, and don't exactly have a particularly inviting climate.

sizeable portions of the area are deserts, especially if you consider that when the RMB first came out, the berlin wall had only just barely been torn down. in most people's minds, "russia" was basically synonymous with "USSR", and you've got places like siberia, afghanistan, etc that were included in that. for example, from the wikipedia article for USSR:

"It spanned over 10,000 kilometres (6,200 mi) east to west across 11 time zones, and almost 7,200 kilometres (4,500 mi) north to south. It had five climate zones: tundra, taiga, steppes, desert, and mountains."

- tundra "Arctic tundra occurs in the far Northern Hemisphere, north of the taiga belt. The word "tundra" usually refers only to the areas where the subsoil is permafrost, or permanently frozen soil. (It may also refer to the treeless plain in general, so that northern Sápmi would be included.) Permafrost tundra includes vast areas of northern Russia and Canada."

- taiga "The taiga is the terrestrial biome with the lowest annual average temperatures after the tundra and permanent ice caps. Extreme winter minimums in the northern taiga are typically lower than those of the tundra. The lowest reliably recorded temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere were recorded in the taiga of northeastern Russia. The taiga or boreal forest has a subarctic climate with very large temperature range between seasons, but the long and cold winter is the dominant feature."

- steppes "Steppes are usually characterized by a semi-arid and continental climate. Extremes can be recorded in the summer of up to 40 °C (104 °F) and in winter, –40 °C (–40 °F). Besides this huge difference between summer and winter, the differences between day and night are also very great. In the highlands of Mongolia, 30 °C (86 °F) can be reached during the day with sub-zero °C (sub 32 °F) readings at night."

- deserts (i presume you are familiar with this word and don't need a definition)

- mountains (again, i presume you are familiar with this word and don't need a definition).

seriously. most of russia *is* a wasteland compared to the great lakes region of north america, ie Erin Tarn's audience. to call it a wasteland, simply put, is not much of a stretch at all.

[Dr. Doom III]

At the time of the writing of Tarn's "Traversing Our Modern World" Erin Tarn had never left North America.
In fact she never actually wrote the book to begin with. It was cobbled together from letters and other writings. She simply had bad information about a lot of places. It says so in the first two paragraphs.
So if people are complaining that the information is wrong blame the unauthorized biographer not Erin Tarn.

[Giant2005]

Reread the passage that I took the time to retype.
TW Arquebuses were invented before the coming of the Rifts, and..
During the Great Cataclysm, these weapons became powerful mega-damage "guns" and were used by the desperate survivors who eventually formed some of the low-tech shogunates and kingdoms of Japan.

That's not the Republic of Japan- they weren't around yet. That's describing the survivors of the apocalypse who went on to form some of the current communities.

They are especially popular among the eta of the Freelands.

Notice that the weapons are popular among the eta.
That's the "lowest of the low" who have a status beneath that of the peasants in the New Empire.
The Freelands are not in the Republic of Japan, btw, they are (Japan, 17) "the rugged wilderness north of Honshu and Little Honshu... These lands are unclaimed and home to wilderness people, adventurers, mercenaries, oni, D-Bees, eta, and other undesirables."
It's at the other end of the main island from the Republic of Japan.

You are right, I didn't fully read that part (actually I think I have never really fully read that part). Now with this new-found clarity, I have to say that those items are the most ridiculous thing Palladium has ever put in print. The notion that the world discovered techno-wizardry before they discovered wizardry is frankly the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
I have just decided to retcon the whole thing and assume that that passage is something that has been muddled by history. It isn't cannon but at least it doesn't decimate any sense of cannon...

About the Oni... Keep in mind that Rifts Earth is prime real estate, Demons and the Supernatural have flocked to the planet in droves and are always seeking to make it their own. In that kind of environment, it is safe to assume that they are everywhere regardless of how "quiet" a civilization is. Our interpretation of the term "quiet" means a low tech, boring little town. On Rifts Earth, it is more likely that their interpretation of "quiet" is a low tech, boring little town plagued by demons.

I very strongly disagree. In fact, that kind of thinking is one of the main problems with the game, since that kind of perception colors the later books.
Reread Rifts, p. 137.
It describes a North America where lone protectors in power armor or a robot vehicle can protect a town or community from outside threats.
There's the sentence, "If a stranger or invader threatens the kingdom, the champion/protector(s) rises to meet the threat."
That's "IF", not "when" or "whenever."
It's not even a certainty that communities will be threatened.
And that's for actual kingdoms!
There's a note that "the concept of a champion who serves as protector and peacekeeper has been adopted by many towns and villages as well."
"Many" is not "All," or even "Most."

A community in Rifts Earth, in the earlier books especially, could be untroubled by mega-damage monsters for weeks, months, years, or even decades, depending on where they were located.
Though those located in hot zones like the edges of Xiticix territory would run into threats far more often.

Reread the original passages that Tarn writes, and notice how often she refers to monsters and demons as being present- something that she wouldn't do if it were something that one could simply assume.
Monsters and demons are always a possibility on Rifts Earth, but not always common.

Rifts may have started that way (Which is actually the point you are trying to make), I don't really have an opinion on it one way or the other. What I do have an opinion of is that it really isn't that way now.
All the nations described on Rifts Earth are either actively trying to get their hands on more land or have enemies that are trying to take their land. Logic dictates that if you are willing to try and steal land from the strong, you would also be happy taking it from the weak (unless you had some sort of moral code that prevented that).

[TechnoGothic]

all Rifts Japan is missing is Cyber-knight samurais and Psi-Ninjas

I would LOVE THAT !!!

[TechnoGothic]

At the time of the writing of Tarn's "Traversing Our Modern World" Erin Tarn had never left North America.
In fact she never actually wrote the book to begin with. It was cobbled together from letters and other writings. She simply had bad information about a lot of places. It says so in the first two paragraphs.
So if people are complaining that the information is wrong blame the unauthorized biographer not Erin Tarn.

AGREED !!

Besides the people who did visit Japan, might have being like Ghost Hunters or Destination Truth group. They may have spent only a single night or just a few days there before leaving.

Japan is "about the Size of Florida. Might be alittle larger or smaller, That does not matter.
If Florida only had 7 or 8 Million people. Most in Miami, and say Tampa, Orlando Jacksonville as the Tech Cities. The Rest of the state would be sparse as heck. You could travel and never run into other people or know they were there. Say Someone Rifted into the Everglades. They could travel on foot for weeks without seeing someone else.

Japan might look small on a map, but it is not when your there, on foot, in Thick forrests, Moutains, etc...

[TechnoGothic]

this is akin to doing a world book for Las Vegas and putting mobsters, wannable rat pack and other singers in the book, occ lounge singer

What do most people think of when they hear Las Vagas ?

Hookers
Strippers
Casinoes
Magic Shows
Elvis Impersonaters
CSI

So we will get a Rifts Stage Magician OCC, an Hooker OCC, Elvis Impersonater OCC, Crime Scene Investiagtor OCC. And a Mega-City Casino Hybrid the Size of the new city Chi-town is building shaped like a pyrimad. We might also get Casino Sercuity OCCs, an Elvis Samas covered in rinestones

[Proseksword]

The passage in question is discussing all the stuff that Tarn knows, though.

Thinks she knows. She's human, and can be wrong.

We're not talking about other books in this part, though. We're discussing the passages in the original Rifts book solely in the context of that book, because that was my question to you- whether there was anything in that book that indicated that anything at all was going on in Japan.

The impression I got from the RMB was that Erin Tarn was stretching her world knowledge to the limit just to write the information provided in those few scant pages. Certainly, they'd be impressive to someone living in RIFTs Earth, but from a modern perspective, she struck me as an iterant wanderer like an old-fashioned bard, who's knowledge is limited to what she picks up along the way, and what she's told by others, none of it through thorough or scientific methods. Quite frankly, she's kind of ignorant and highly unprofessional at what she does.

You took issue with my answer that no, there is absolutely no indication in that book that anything is going on in Japan, but so far your support seems to consist of, in your own words, "I think there's probably something interesting in every part of RIFTs Earth, which is one of the things I LOVE about it!"
Which isn't actually anything IN that book.

I took issue with the idea that Erin Tarn obviously experienced everything there was to know about Japan in her brief lifetime so that she could write it off in a pair of sentences, and that she's obviously some sort of infallible, omniscient creature to you.

My point was simply arriving at and being at a geographical area for a few days does not equate to mastery of all knowledge of it.

When it's a small cluster of quiet wilderness islands, then yeah, it pretty much does.
[/quote][/quote]

Wow, that's ignorant. I guess I know everything about Hawaii then. I was there like two weeks.

[llywelyn]

I'm discussing page 152 of the Rifts book.
All it says is:
"Japan was besieged by tidal waves and volcanic activity that toppled its great cities and killed millions. today it is a quiet little cluster of wilderness islands."

Sorry, but "quiet Cluster of Wilderness Islands" just isn't the same as "Humans: Zero."

...

I, personally, can't see any major contradiction between the RMB and Rifts: Japan....

This.

I'm absolutely with Killer Cyborg that it annoys me no end when the later writers mess with canon, but this was obviously Tarn talking out of her @ss based on hearsay from before the cities rifted in and Japan is still in no connection at all with anyone else in the world, which equals quiet just fine.

The New West suddenly filling the place in with territories more populous than CS Missouri, on the other hand, I certainly could have lived without, but that's another thread.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

At the time of the writing of Tarn's "Traversing Our Modern World" Erin Tarn had never left North America.
In fact she never actually wrote the book to begin with. It was cobbled together from letters and other writings. She simply had bad information about a lot of places. It says so in the first two paragraphs.
So if people are complaining that the information is wrong blame the unauthorized biographer not Erin Tarn.

AGREED !!

Besides the people who did visit Japan, might have being like Ghost Hunters or Destination Truth group. They may have spent only a single night or just a few days there before leaving.

Japan is "about the Size of Florida. Might be alittle larger or smaller, That does not matter.
If Florida only had 7 or 8 Million people. Most in Miami, and say Tampa, Orlando Jacksonville as the Tech Cities. The Rest of the state would be sparse as heck. You could travel and never run into other people or know they were there. Say Someone Rifted into the Everglades. They could travel on foot for weeks without seeing someone else.

Japan might look small on a map, but it is not when your there, on foot, in Thick forrests, Moutains, etc...

yeah, like you could hidden two hi-tech cities in that setting or even better at night

[Killer Cyborg]

At the time of the writing of Tarn's "Traversing Our Modern World" Erin Tarn had never left North America.
In fact she never actually wrote the book to begin with. It was cobbled together from letters and other writings. She simply had bad information about a lot of places. It says so in the first two paragraphs.
So if people are complaining that the information is wrong blame the unauthorized biographer not Erin Tarn.

Doom, you are wrong so many times there that I'm not going to bother to address them, only to ask you to support your claims.

[Killer Cyborg]

Now with this new-found clarity, I have to say that those items are the most ridiculous thing Palladium has ever put in print.

I'm torn between those and the laser bow.

Monsters and demons are always a possibility on Rifts Earth, but not always common.

Rifts may have started that way (Which is actually the point you are trying to make), I don't really have an opinion on it one way or the other. What I do have an opinion of is that it really isn't that way now.[/quote]

That IS part of the point that I'm trying to make.
If I were to sum up Palladium's chief tragic failing, it would be that they don't seem to understand the power of what they print, that how they describe the game in one section affects the rest of the game.
Like how the lack of description of "boring" SDC stuff in the game leads players and later writers to assume that that stuff isn't really as common as MDC stuff.
Like how changing a rule here and a rule there can have drastic long-term consequences.
Which is why what started off as a fairly reasonable post-apocalyptic game setting and system has evolved into something that many people have abandoned as absurd, and that puts off many potential new customers.

All the nations described on Rifts Earth are either actively trying to get their hands on more land or have enemies that are trying to take their land. Logic dictates that if you are willing to try and steal land from the strong, you would also be happy taking it from the weak (unless you had some sort of moral code that prevented that).

Hm.
I'd say that only the major players seem to be actively trying to expand and/or that have active threats to their borders.
There are many smaller city-states and minor nations that don't seem to have as much problem.
But then, these are much less often described in detail, so perhaps that's what you meant.

[Proseksword]

That IS part of the point that I'm trying to make.
If I were to sum up Palladium's chief tragic failing, it would be that they don't seem to understand the power of what they print, that how they describe the game in one section affects the rest of the game.
Like how the lack of description of "boring" SDC stuff in the game leads players and later writers to assume that that stuff isn't really as common as MDC stuff.
Like how changing a rule here and a rule there can have drastic long-term consequences.
Which is why what started off as a fairly reasonable post-apocalyptic game setting and system has evolved into something that many people have abandoned as absurd, and that puts off many potential new customers.

RIFTs was never a fairly reasonable post-apocalyptic game setting. It was originally a goofy, cornball post-apocalyptic game with guys flying around in giant skulls with their pal poochy, shiny mecha with ludicrously large shoulder cannons, Popeye the sailor man running around with shunts in his head, and roid-raging was a character class! To be honest, I found RIFTs utterly ridiculous and laughable up until sometime between the release of RIFTs Japan and the release of Juicer Uprisings. I find the later, sci-fi/fantasy mash-up world of RIFTs to be infinitely more internally consistent and enjoyable than the early "The man with the laspistol is king" stuff.

You complain that the writers have gotten the impression that MDC is "more common" than SDC stuff. Isn't Kevin the primary writer for RIFTs? If he feels that way, isn't it his creation, and isn't that how it's supposed to be?

Isn't it possible that Kevin's early writing on RIFTs gave players a different impression than what he intended, and that in later work he made it more clear what his intentions were?

Isn't it possible, that as Kevin explained in his Game Designer notes for RIFTS Ultimate Edition, the rules aren't all that important, and take a back seat to the characters and story? Isn't it also possible that he doesn't see a problem with changing the rules on the fly, because that's what he expects GMs to do: alter the game to suit the needs of their players?

[Dr. Doom III]

At the time of the writing of Tarn's "Traversing Our Modern World" Erin Tarn had never left North America.
In fact she never actually wrote the book to begin with. It was cobbled together from letters and other writings. She simply had bad information about a lot of places. It says so in the first two paragraphs.
So if people are complaining that the information is wrong blame the unauthorized biographer not Erin Tarn.

Doom, you are wrong so many times there that I'm not going to bother to address them, only to ask you to support your claims.

All I have to do to support it is direct you to the first two paragraphs of the "Traversing Our Modern World" section of the Rifts: Main Book. Which I already did.

[The Galactus Kid]

At the time of the writing of Tarn's "Traversing Our Modern World" Erin Tarn had never left North America.
In fact she never actually wrote the book to begin with. It was cobbled together from letters and other writings. She simply had bad information about a lot of places. It says so in the first two paragraphs.
So if people are complaining that the information is wrong blame the unauthorized biographer not Erin Tarn.

I can't believe I'm about to say this...

Doom is 100% correct.

[DhAkael]

That IS part of the point that I'm trying to make.
If I were to sum up Palladium's chief tragic failing, it would be that they don't seem to understand the power of what they print, that how they describe the game in one section affects the rest of the game.
Like how the lack of description of "boring" SDC stuff in the game leads players and later writers to assume that that stuff isn't really as common as MDC stuff.
Like how changing a rule here and a rule there can have drastic long-term consequences.
Which is why what started off as a fairly reasonable post-apocalyptic game setting and system has evolved into something that many people have abandoned as absurd, and that puts off many potential new customers.

RIFTs was never a fairly reasonable post-apocalyptic game setting. It was originally a goofy, cornball post-apocalyptic game with guys flying around in giant skulls with their pal poochy, shiny mecha with ludicrously large shoulder cannons, Popeye the sailor man running around with shunts in his head, and roid-raging was a character class! To be honest, I found RIFTs utterly ridiculous and laughable up until sometime between the release of RIFTs Japan and the release of Juicer Uprisings. I find the later, sci-fi/fantasy mash-up world of RIFTs to be infinitely more internally consistent and enjoyable than the early "The man with the laspistol is king" stuff.

You complain that the writers have gotten the impression that MDC is "more common" than SDC stuff. Isn't Kevin the primary writer for RIFTs? If he feels that way, isn't it his creation, and isn't that how it's supposed to be?

Isn't it possible that Kevin's early writing on RIFTs gave players a different impression than what he intended, and that in later work he made it more clear what his intentions were?

Isn't it possible, that as Kevin explained in his Game Designer notes for RIFTS Ultimate Edition, the rules aren't all that important, and take a back seat to the characters and story? Isn't it also possible that he doesn't see a problem with changing the rules on the fly, because that's what he expects GMs to do: alter the game to suit the needs of their players?

TRUTH!
As my mantra clearly says; "All final rulings on game mechanics and rules set are the purview of the individual GM. Period. Full Stop. End of line."

Here's something else to ponder; those blasters used in say *looks for high-priced lawyers* SW? Y'know, George Lucas's magnum-opus? Yeah... they're ALL (every single stinking last one of 'em) at least high-grade SDC mega weapons (minumum of 100 to 400 MDC if one were to give numbers to 'em..which we can't due to coppeez ritez). Read the novels; the description given as to what they do to non-shielded structures is um... excessive.

So yeah; MDC is common-place, the modern battlefield is NOT for the unprotected and unarmoured, and anyone who feels strongly enough to dislike this fact can either switch to oh..I dunno... EXALTED(tm,cr,etc) or go play HU2 (which is all SDC).

[Killer Cyborg]

At the time of the writing of Tarn's "Traversing Our Modern World" Erin Tarn had never left North America.
In fact she never actually wrote the book to begin with. It was cobbled together from letters and other writings. She simply had bad information about a lot of places. It says so in the first two paragraphs.
So if people are complaining that the information is wrong blame the unauthorized biographer not Erin Tarn.

Doom, you are wrong so many times there that I'm not going to bother to address them, only to ask you to support your claims.

All I have to do to support it is direct you to the first two paragraphs of the "Traversing Our Modern World" section of the Rifts: Main Book. Which I already did.

Either quote the parts that state:
1. Tarn had never left North America
2. She had bad information about a lot of places.

Or quit making stuff up.

Because the first two paragraphs in my copy of the book don't say either of those things.
And, as I've already pointed out, later on that page (Rifts 137), it DOES say:
"...let me set about the task of chronicling my journeys..."
As a preface to the rest of the section.
She didn't write the book- it was compiled from her personal letters that she wrote to people, though, so the fact that she didn't compile the thing, and the fact that sections that we've never seen are written by other people, doesn't enter into the equation.
Get your facts straight, and quote the book if you think anything real supports your claims.

[Prysus]

I can't believe I'm about to say this...

Doom is 100% correct.

Greetings and Salutations. While I admit that I'm not a Rifts expert, I have to say he's not. I've read exactly what he told me to (and a bit more), and I see several inaccuracies. Let's address this piece by piece ...

At the time of the writing of Tarn's "Traversing Our Modern World" Erin Tarn had never left North America.

I haven't seen ANY proof of this. Actually, I see several signs that this is flat out untrue.

In fact she never actually wrote the book to begin with. It was cobbled together from letters and other writings.

This is true, but a misleading truth. "Traversing Our Modern World" is indeed cobbled together from various sources (many of which are Tarn herself, but not all). With that said, this truth has NOTHING to do with the excerpts that follow. Let's focus just on the excerpts section ...

What follows is a brief world overview written by historian and explorer, Erin Tarn.

The excerpt which follows is a world overview commissioned by the Council of Learning at Lazlo.

I still can not believe that I have let you rascals buy me ...

So while the book itself is written by many, the excerpts we're reading were writtten by Erin Tarn. She may not have endorsed the book due to the "vast gaps in her knowledge of the world" but she DID endorse these excerpts.

She simply had bad information about a lot of places. It says so in the first two paragraphs.

For the book, true. But this still fails to address the excerpts which she did write and did endorse.

So if people are complaining that the information is wrong blame the unauthorized biographer not Erin Tarn.

Since all the excerpts we read were written by Erin Tarn, we have no one to blame but her (and maybe Lazlo for actually paying her for it).

What we do know is that the book is "the most accurate and inclusive journal/atlas of the Rifts world available." But we also know "that is not saying much." The book also goes to say that "lack of complete knowledge" is the reason for her refusal to write the book, not her inaccurate knowledge. This suggests that while she doesn't know everything, what she does know is supposed to be accurate. That's at least my take on the matter. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.


*Sigh.* How did I let myself get involved in this? *Shakes head.*

[Killer Cyborg]

That IS part of the point that I'm trying to make.
If I were to sum up Palladium's chief tragic failing, it would be that they don't seem to understand the power of what they print, that how they describe the game in one section affects the rest of the game.
Like how the lack of description of "boring" SDC stuff in the game leads players and later writers to assume that that stuff isn't really as common as MDC stuff.
Like how changing a rule here and a rule there can have drastic long-term consequences.
Which is why what started off as a fairly reasonable post-apocalyptic game setting and system has evolved into something that many people have abandoned as absurd, and that puts off many potential new customers.

RIFTs was never a fairly reasonable post-apocalyptic game setting.

I disagree.

It was originally a goofy, cornball post-apocalyptic game with guys flying around in giant skulls with their pal poochy, shiny mecha with ludicrously large shoulder cannons, Popeye the sailor man running around with shunts in his head, and roid-raging was a character class! To be honest, I found RIFTs utterly ridiculous and laughable up until sometime between the release of RIFTs Japan and the release of Juicer Uprisings. I find the later, sci-fi/fantasy mash-up world of RIFTs to be infinitely more internally consistent and enjoyable than the early "The man with the laspistol is king" stuff.

This gives me a lot more insight into where you're coming from.
It's akin to the people who think that Boondock Saints II was the better of the two movies, simply because they didn't like nor appreciate the first film.

You complain that the writers have gotten the impression that MDC is "more common" than SDC stuff. Isn't Kevin the primary writer for RIFTs? If he feels that way, isn't it his creation, and isn't that how it's supposed to be?

"Primary" in the sense that he contributes more than any one other person, but whether or not the books have his name on them as co-writer, most of the stuff in Rifts since the early books has been more edited by Kevin than written by him.

Isn't it possible that Kevin's early writing on RIFTs gave players a different impression than what he intended, and that in later work he made it more clear what his intentions were?

No.

Isn't it possible, that as Kevin explained in his Game Designer notes for RIFTS Ultimate Edition, the rules aren't all that important, and take a back seat to the characters and story? Isn't it also possible that he doesn't see a problem with changing the rules on the fly, because that's what he expects GMs to do: alter the game to suit the needs of their players?

No idea what those questions are doing in this thread.

[Killer Cyborg]

So yeah; MDC is common-place, the modern battlefield is NOT for the unprotected and unarmoured, and anyone who feels strongly enough to dislike this fact can either switch to oh..I dunno... EXALTED(tm,cr,etc) or go play HU2 (which is all SDC).

You're confusing two different concepts.
MDC is common on the battlefield, yes.
This does not mean that the battlefield is common.
It especially does not mean that the battlefield is common everywhere.

[flatline]

If MD weapons and MDC armor are truly rare, then magic and super psionics become dramatically more powerful.

I've never played a campaign where MDC was rare, so I can't actually attest to how that changes the feel of the game.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

If MD weapons and MDC armor are truly rare, then magic and super psionics become dramatically more powerful.

I've never played a campaign where MDC was rare, so I can't actually attest to how that changes the feel of the game.

--flatline

Any time you're in my neck of the woods, let me know, and I'll be happy to run something.

[Proseksword]

This is true, but a misleading truth. "Traversing Our Modern World" is indeed cobbled together from various sources (many of which are Tarn herself, but not all). With that said, this truth has NOTHING to do with the excerpts that follow. Let's focus just on the excerpts section ...

What follows is a brief world overview written by historian and explorer, Erin Tarn.

The excerpt which follows is a world overview commissioned by the Council of Learning at Lazlo.

I still can not believe that I have let you rascals buy me ...

So while the book itself is written by many, the excerpts we're reading were writtten by Erin Tarn. She may not have endorsed the book due to the "vast gaps in her knowledge of the world" but she DID endorse these excerpts.

That's a logical fallacy. If she didn't want it published or would not officially attach her name to it, it's quite possible that part of the reason why she refused to do so was that she knew she included inaccurate information which might have been percieved as truth. Why would she do so? Maybe it was written while she was still unestablished and looking to impress others, information could have been included as a personal prank on those she was corresponding with, or she may have simply made a mistake.

Further, it's possible that despite the fact the book Traversing Our Modern World attributes these writings to Erin Tarn, some or all of it might not be hers at all, and may in fact be the concoctions of the editor/compiler or the result of the contamination of data. As Traversing Our Modern World has been compiled without Erin Tarn's consent by a third party from numerous documents, not all written by Tarn, poor editing could result in writing being incorrectly attributed to Tarn, sections of text being ommited or replaced by other writings from elsewhere and other authors, and even be the result of the editor altering the document to make it sell better!

Finally, RIFTs Canada out and out admits that Erin Tarn's data can and is inaccurate:

pg.10 "Furthermore, while much of her writings and speculations are incredibly insightful and accurate, because they are based on her own personal experiences and those of trusted associates, some of her information is inaccurate - reflecting current beliefs, misinformation, rumor or propaganda."

pg.18 "In her renowned book, Traversing Our Modern World Erin Tarn incorrectly estimated the population of Ishpeming circa 98 P.A. when she had last visited, at approximately 100,000. In truth, the population topped 250,000...."

In short, unless it's corraborated elsewhere, Traversing Our Modern World is an unreliable hack-job, which at best provides rumors of what may be, but doesn't come close to approaching the status of undeniable truth that some seem to be attributing to it.

[Proseksword]

Isn't it possible that Kevin's early writing on RIFTs gave players a different impression than what he intended, and that in later work he made it more clear what his intentions were?

No.

And yet, in RIFTs Canada, written by Kevin Siembieda and ONLY Kevin Siembieda, he makes it clear that some of what appears in Traversing Our Modern World is in error, because Erin Tarn is, herself, in error. Perhaps it is just you who have the wrong impression of how authoritative this article was to be?

[Killer Cyborg]

Isn't it possible that Kevin's early writing on RIFTs gave players a different impression than what he intended, and that in later work he made it more clear what his intentions were?

No.

And yet, in RIFTs Canada, written by Kevin Siembieda and ONLY Kevin Siembieda, he makes it clear that some of what appears in Traversing Our Modern World is in error, because Erin Tarn is, herself, in error. Perhaps it is just you who have the wrong impression of how authoritative this article was to be?

Nope.
I just understand that Kevin can change his mind over the span of years, and what once was canon gets ignored and changed into something new.
Your argument here is much like claiming that the -10 Rule from Rifts Japan was always intended to be in Rifts, Kevin just didn't make himself clear originally.
Or that mages' armor was always intended to hamper their spellcasting abilities.
Or that any of the other of the very, very large number of changes in the game over the years was "always intended."

If you like Rifts Japan, cool- say that you like the change from the original vision.
But don't pretend that it's not a change, because it is.

[Nightmask]

Reread the passage that I took the time to retype.
TW Arquebuses were invented before the coming of the Rifts, and..
During the Great Cataclysm, these weapons became powerful mega-damage "guns" and were used by the desperate survivors who eventually formed some of the low-tech shogunates and kingdoms of Japan.

That's not the Republic of Japan- they weren't around yet. That's describing the survivors of the apocalypse who went on to form some of the current communities.

They are especially popular among the eta of the Freelands.

Notice that the weapons are popular among the eta.
That's the "lowest of the low" who have a status beneath that of the peasants in the New Empire.
The Freelands are not in the Republic of Japan, btw, they are (Japan, 17) "the rugged wilderness north of Honshu and Little Honshu... These lands are unclaimed and home to wilderness people, adventurers, mercenaries, oni, D-Bees, eta, and other undesirables."
It's at the other end of the main island from the Republic of Japan.

You are right, I didn't fully read that part (actually I think I have never really fully read that part). Now with this new-found clarity, I have to say that those items are the most ridiculous thing Palladium has ever put in print. The notion that the world discovered techno-wizardry before they discovered wizardry is frankly the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
I have just decided to retcon the whole thing and assume that that passage is something that has been muddled by history. It isn't cannon but at least it doesn't decimate any sense of canon...

Where was it ever stated or implied that Rifts Earth developed techno-wizardry before conventional spell-casting? Since we know magic has been around since before Atlantis screwed everything up before recorded history (or close to it). I also get the impression writers slap TW onto just about any instance of magic+technology even when it's obviously not a creation of a Techno-Wizard (like referring to Gizmoteer Psi-Blades as TW Psi-Blades when they're definitely not Techno-Wizard Creations). You can take a 9mm handgun in Nightbane, cast Enchant Weapon on it and now it's technically a TW weapon as it's a high-tech item that's enchanted with magic and now does mega-damage in Rifts. The 'tw Arquebuses' likely fit the same criteria; someone pre-Rifts created them by figuring 'hey we can enchant this like we do bows and swords' and now it's called a TW item just because.

[Proseksword]

You know, I don't know how to relate to someone who attaches biblical level importance to the words written by someone who obviously doesn't regard them in the same fashion.

I love Kevin Siembieda, because like him, I'm a kind of shoot from the hip, whatever works, talk is cheap and rumors make for great adventure hooks kind of guy.

I'll give you that cyber-samurai and ninjas weren't probably in Kevin's mind when he wrote that for the RMB. Chances are, nothing was. I also think that by the time he had reached the part of RIFTs England, he was deliberately writing rumors and half-truths with an eye to adventures, and hopefully products, to come. That entire section was intended to be written as a vague half-truth to inspire and decieve. It perplexes me that you hold it as so important when it's obvious the original author doesn't.

[Killer Cyborg]

This is true, but a misleading truth. "Traversing Our Modern World" is indeed cobbled together from various sources (many of which are Tarn herself, but not all). With that said, this truth has NOTHING to do with the excerpts that follow. Let's focus just on the excerpts section ...

What follows is a brief world overview written by historian and explorer, Erin Tarn.

The excerpt which follows is a world overview commissioned by the Council of Learning at Lazlo.

I still can not believe that I have let you rascals buy me ...

So while the book itself is written by many, the excerpts we're reading were writtten by Erin Tarn. She may not have endorsed the book due to the "vast gaps in her knowledge of the world" but she DID endorse these excerpts.

That's a logical fallacy.

Really?
Which fallacy specifically?

If she didn't want it published or would not officially attach her name to it, it's quite possible that part of the reason why she refused to do so was that she knew she included inaccurate information which might have been percieved as truth. Why would she do so? Maybe it was written while she was still unestablished and looking to impress others, information could have been included as a personal prank on those she was corresponding with, or she may have simply made a mistake.

Any of which turns Tarn from a reliable narrator into an unreliable narrator, which weakens the setting.

Further, it's possible that despite the fact the book Traversing Our Modern World attributes these writings to Erin Tarn, some or all of it might not be hers at all, and may in fact be the concoctions of the editor/compiler or the result of the contamination of data.

Only if you want to assume that Kevin Siembieda, when he was writing Rifts, decided to have the primary (and very nearly sole) description of the setting come from an imaginary forged document that got important details wrong.

As Traversing Our Modern World has been compiled without Erin Tarn's consent by a third party from numerous documents, not all written by Tarn, poor editing could result in writing being incorrectly attributed to Tarn, sections of text being ommited or replaced by other writings from elsewhere and other authors, and even be the result of the editor altering the document to make it sell better!

Dude, it's not a real book.
Again, if you want to argue that Kevin for some reason decided to present the readers with deliberately false information, then find something to back up that argument.
Otherwise, you're just conjuring a bunch of in-game "maybes" and "what-ifs" over something that has a very, very clear out-of-game explanation- Tarn's information was intended to be correct, except for some of the stuff attributed to rumors, but Kevin later changed his mind.

Finally, RIFTs Canada out and out admits that Erin Tarn's data can and is inaccurate:

pg.10 "Furthermore, while much of her writings and speculations are incredibly insightful and accurate, because they are based on her own personal experiences and those of trusted associates, some of her information is inaccurate - reflecting current beliefs, misinformation, rumor or propaganda."

pg.18 "In her renowned book, Traversing Our Modern World Erin Tarn incorrectly estimated the population of Ishpeming circa 98 P.A. when she had last visited, at approximately 100,000. In truth, the population topped 250,000...."

And does the Canada book say this because:
a) Erin Tarn, the fictional character, the woman who does not now exist and who never has existed, got the real information wrong
b) Kevin had a plan back in 1990 when he wrote Rifts to later deliberately write a Rifts Canada book with different statistics than he originally presented in the RMB, just leaving every player and GM with the wrong impression in the mean time
c) Kevin later changed his mind, and wrote a paragraph or two as an explanation as to why the information is different in the two books

[Killer Cyborg]

I'll give you that cyber-samurai and ninjas weren't probably in Kevin's mind when he wrote that for the RMB. Chances are, nothing was.

Then why the hell are you arguing that the information that he wrote on Japan in the main book was written to be incorrect?
Why is THAT so much more desirable of an event to you than that a "shoot-from-the-hip" kind of guy honestly wrote one thing, then years later changed his mind?

[Prysus]

That's a logical fallacy. If she didn't want it published or would not officially attach her name to it, it's quite possible that part of the reason why she refused to do so was that she knew she included inaccurate information which might have been percieved as truth. Why would she do so? Maybe it was written while she was still unestablished and looking to impress others, information could have been included as a personal prank on those she was corresponding with, or she may have simply made a mistake.

Further, it's possible that despite the fact the book Traversing Our Modern World attributes these writings to Erin Tarn, some or all of it might not be hers at all, and may in fact be the concoctions of the editor/compiler or the result of the contamination of data. As Traversing Our Modern World has been compiled without Erin Tarn's consent by a third party from numerous documents, not all written by Tarn, poor editing could result in writing being incorrectly attributed to Tarn, sections of text being ommited or replaced by other writings from elsewhere and other authors, and even be the result of the editor altering the document to make it sell better!

[snip]

In short, unless it's corraborated elsewhere, Traversing Our Modern World is an unreliable hack-job, which at best provides rumors of what may be, but doesn't come close to approaching the status of undeniable truth that some seem to be attributing to it.

Greetings and Salutations. It seems you didn't actually read the point I was addressing, as you solely focused on the facts of Traversing Our Modern World. If you actually go back and read what I said, I didn't deny that this could be inaccurate. I didn't deny that she didn't write it all. And I didn't deny that she does NOT endorse the book. You're going into detail on something that's not in dispute. I provided quotes from the book to show what I was addressing.

The excerpts (those that we were reading in the book) ARE from Erin Tarn (first sentence, written by Kevin, not some NPC). But hey, then he goes into the problems of the book. Maybe he made a mistake? Then we see (again) that the Council of Lazlo commissioned her to do the excerpts we're reading. In the first sentence of the excerpt, we read that she ACCEPTED that commission. Do you comprehend how that is DIFFERENT than a book she didn't endorse?

Reread the section of the book if you need to. Reread what I wrote if you need to. Reread both if necessary. But the spiel above addressing only the book was irrelevent.

As for the Canada part that I snipped out, Killer Cyborg addressed that fine. Now, what again seems to be overlooked, there's no argument that (in later books) Kevin changed things where she is horribly, pathetically, incompetently inaccurate. However, the point was that it changed from the original book. If you're going to shoot from the hip, then you should be able to admit it won't always be consistent and things will change. Why there's an actual argument that nothing changed is actually what confuses me. The degree of that change I can see being left to debate. Arguing that there is no change just seems silly though.

Anyways, more than anything I'm here for accuracy. I could care less about this whole debate. But when someone tries to argue inaccurate information, then I usually will do my best to speak up. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Proseksword]

Any of which turns Tarn from a reliable narrator into an unreliable narrator, which weakens the setting.

Actually, I feel it makes it better. The idea that some middle-aged person could just tramp about this allegedly dangerous world and magically know most everything there is to know, without ever being mistaken or in error, would be the height of stupid, not to mention boring as sin. I don't want to know what's there from Erin Tarn. I want my players to find out when they get there, and I want it to be different!

Only if you want to assume that Kevin Siembieda, when he was writing Rifts, decided to have the primary (and very nearly sole) description of the setting come from an imaginary forged document that got important details wrong.

Considering he made it very clear it was from a forged document with sketchy information, yeah, I do assume that to be the case.

I'll give you that cyber-samurai and ninjas weren't probably in Kevin's mind when he wrote that for the RMB. Chances are, nothing was.

Then why the hell are you arguing that the information that he wrote on Japan in the main book was written to be incorrect?
Why is THAT so much more desirable of an event to you than that a "shoot-from-the-hip" kind of guy honestly wrote one thing, then years later changed his mind?

Because Kevin's style of writing is about allowing the players and GMs to decide, and it is very much in keeping with his style to write rumors, some true, some not. Hell, he's got sourcebooks with whole sections on "100 random rumors", all intended as adventure hooks, some true, some not. Kevin enjoys writing false information and half-truths, because those are the stuff adventures are made of - exploring, and uncovering the truth.

[Proseksword]

The excerpts (those that we were reading in the book) ARE from Erin Tarn (first sentence, written by Kevin, not some NPC).

....passed through the hands of someone else, and possibly corrupted by said process, which was my point.

Then we see (again) that the Council of Lazlo commissioned her to do the excerpts we're reading. In the first sentence of the excerpt, we read that she ACCEPTED that commission. Do you comprehend how that is DIFFERENT than a book she didn't endorse?

What part of that disproves that she could have made mistakes? Mistakes that might lead to not want to put her name on it if published in a public and official capacity? That was my point.

If you're going to shoot from the hip, then you should be able to admit it won't always be consistent and things will change. Why there's an actual argument that nothing changed is actually what confuses me. The degree of that change I can see being left to debate. Arguing that there is no change just seems silly though.

Because I feel that a large portion of the section of the RMB was written with deliberate half-truths and false information to be "in character" and provide adventure hooks. What was written therefore had nothing to do with what Kevin would eventually write for those geographical locations, because Kevin deliberately set it up to be vague and potentially wrong, so that he (and GMs) could do whatever they'd like!

[Prysus]

What part of that disproves that she could have made mistakes? Mistakes that might lead to not want to put her name on it if published in a public and official capacity? That was my point.

Greetings and Salutations. Nothing disproves she could make mistakes, naturally. But by context there's enough to gather Erin Tarn (specifically) is meant to be accurate. Such as the fact she didn't compile nor approve of the Traversing Our Modern World. Why would it matter ... if she's just inaccurate anyways? If she's so incompetent, why does her opinion matter at all? So why does it matter if she does or doesn't approve of something if it's just as inaccurate either way?

One of her objections had been to the fact how she doesn't have complete knowledge of everything. That's also fine, but doesn't suggest what she knows is inaccurate. This goes back to something Killer Cyborg mentioned earlier. If there was something like the inhabitants living underground, then it would make sense that she was wrong without making her just a clueless old bat. The difference is supporting what's written, and ignoring it.

Because I feel that a large portion of the section of the RMB was written with deliberate half-truths and false information to be "in character" and provide adventure hooks. What was written therefore had nothing to do with what Kevin would eventually write for those geographical locations, because Kevin deliberately set it up to be vague and potentially wrong, so that he (and GMs) could do whatever they'd like!

I have no objection to this concept in itself. Combined with the theories that he was just shooting from the hip (as this theory suggests this was his master plan), had no plans for Japan (which again, this one suggests it was his master plan to mislead), the Japan description fits perfectly, etc. the argument loses a bit of steam.

Now, from a purely objective stand point (as I have I don't play or run Rifts), I'd have to say things have just changed. The fact Kevin never planned for Rifts to be this big (he expected only one book, maybe a couple books for support, but nothing big and he's admitted this before) helps support that. I'm not saying the change is bad (I think I may have preferred the original vision more, but I don't think it would have sold as well if it didn't change) as that's is a matter of opinion, but trying to say it didn't change at all just feels more ... stubborn? Not sure that's the right word.

Anyways, I think that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Killer Cyborg]

Any of which turns Tarn from a reliable narrator into an unreliable narrator, which weakens the setting.

Actually, I feel it makes it better. The idea that some middle-aged person could just tramp about this allegedly dangerous world and magically know most everything there is to know, without ever being mistaken or in error, would be the height of stupid, not to mention boring as sin.

You seriously think that the stuff from her books is "most everything there is to know?"

Only if you want to assume that Kevin Siembieda, when he was writing Rifts, decided to have the primary (and very nearly sole) description of the setting come from an imaginary forged document that got important details wrong.

Considering he made it very clear it was from a forged document with sketchy information, yeah, I do assume that to be the case.

Forged?
Quit making stuff up.

I'll give you that cyber-samurai and ninjas weren't probably in Kevin's mind when he wrote that for the RMB. Chances are, nothing was.

Then why the hell are you arguing that the information that he wrote on Japan in the main book was written to be incorrect?
Why is THAT so much more desirable of an event to you than that a "shoot-from-the-hip" kind of guy honestly wrote one thing, then years later changed his mind?

Because Kevin's style of writing is about allowing the players and GMs to decide, and it is very much in keeping with his style to write rumors, some true, some not.

That explains all the parts of Tarn's descriptions that are mentioned to be rumors.

Hell, he's got sourcebooks with whole sections on "100 random rumors", all intended as adventure hooks, some true, some not. Kevin enjoys writing false information and half-truths, because those are the stuff adventures are made of - exploring, and uncovering the truth.

He also enjoys writing facts, so that players and GMs have something solid to start with, whether or not they later decide to change it.

[Proseksword]

Greetings and Salutations. Nothing disproves she could make mistakes, naturally. But by context there's enough to gather Erin Tarn (specifically) is meant to be accurate. Such as the fact she didn't compile nor approve of the Traversing Our Modern World. Why would it matter ... if she's just inaccurate anyways? If she's so incompetent, why does her opinion matter at all? So why does it matter if she does or doesn't approve of something if it's just as inaccurate either way?

If I was writing to my friends or coworkers, I might fee comfortable asserting things which I might feel would not stand up to scientific scrutiny. I might also be unhappy with the idea of publishing older things I have written when I have more recently found that I made mistakes. Both would be good reasons for why Erin Tarn would not want her works published - she's written things she thinks may not hold up to close scrutiny or she may know now are false, and does not wish to be called to account for them.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you're going to shoot from the hip, then you should be able to admit it won't always be consistent and things will change. Why there's an actual argument that nothing changed is actually what confuses me. The degree of that change I can see being left to debate. Arguing that there is no change just seems silly though.

Because I feel that a large portion of the section of the RMB was written with deliberate half-truths and false information to be "in character" and provide adventure hooks.

Your feelings are noted, but they don't actually prove, demonstrate, or really indicate anything.

What was written therefore had nothing to do with what Kevin would eventually write for those geographical locations, because Kevin deliberately set it up to be vague and potentially wrong, so that he (and GMs) could do whatever they'd like!

What was written had little to do with what Kevin would eventually write for those geographical locations, because Kevin had no idea how well Rifts would take off, and that he'd end up writing dozens of World Books and Sourcebooks.
He originally thought that he might get ONE world book, and a lone conversion book.
Parts were set up to be potentially wrong: the parts that mention that they're based on rumors.
Other parts were intended to be expanded on in the Rifts World Book.
Other parts, like Japan, were intended to be all the information that anybody would ever need to know about the area as far as canon material goes.

[Proseksword]

You seriously think that the stuff from her books is "most everything there is to know?"

From the way the entire rest of the fictional world can't seem to stop falling over themselves to talk about how amazingly knowedgeable she is and how her writing has exposed them to so much knowledge? Yeah, it does seem that she is the pre-iminent voice on the geography and societies of RIFTs Earth.

Forged?
Quit making stuff up.

You said forged, not me. You could substitute "falsified" or "unscientific" if you wish.

He also enjoys writing facts, so that players and GMs have something solid to start with, whether or not they later decide to change it.

And yet, in making rumors and half-truths, he makes them indistinguishable from facts, because that's the way the RIFTs universe works! The individual adventurers have nothing to go on but shoddy, secondhand information about places they've never been. Is it true? We won't know until we get there!

[Proseksword]

If you're going to shoot from the hip, then you should be able to admit it won't always be consistent and things will change. Why there's an actual argument that nothing changed is actually what confuses me. The degree of that change I can see being left to debate. Arguing that there is no change just seems silly though.

Because I feel that a large portion of the section of the RMB was written with deliberate half-truths and false information to be "in character" and provide adventure hooks.

Your feelings are noted, but they don't actually prove, demonstrate, or really indicate anything.

And yet they do, in the future wind up being half-truths and false information, so they do, in fact, reflect what actually came to pass!

What was written had little to do with what Kevin would eventually write for those geographical locations, because Kevin had no idea how well Rifts would take off, and that he'd end up writing dozens of World Books and Sourcebooks.

...yet was open to the possiblity.

Other parts, like Japan, were intended to be all the information that anybody would ever need to know about the area as far as canon material goes.

Based upon nothing but your personal assumption and dismissal of the forward's very deliberate warning of false and corrupted information.

[Proseksword]

So, to get back to your issue, as early as RIFTs England, Erin Tarn states "I've never been to Europe". Yet her comments on France, Spain, Germany and the rest of Europe aren't qualified in the RMB with mention of "rumors" as you so assert they must be to prove her lack of a visit before 100 P.A. It seems like the very earliest of RIFTs additional sources debunk your idea that Erin Tarn only qualifies rumors and second hand information as such.

[TechnoGothic]

If MD weapons and MDC armor are truly rare, then magic and super psionics become dramatically more powerful.

I've never played a campaign where MDC was rare, so I can't actually attest to how that changes the feel of the game.

--flatline

Using md/mdc as Rare adds to the fun of the game alot. Never knowing if someone is a hidden mage or psychic or mutant with access to md powers adds to the uncertanly of the setting. Never knowing if this or that Cyborg is sdc or mdc material also adds an air of unknown horror and mystery to an encounter.