Mech-Viper Prime wrote:only 1% survived the coming of the rifts in japan, and only 25% of Japanese heritage made it back to japan.
so most of the survivors must have been ninjas and samurais
Did someone say ninja?
(Giant will get it.)
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Mech-Viper Prime wrote:only 1% survived the coming of the rifts in japan, and only 25% of Japanese heritage made it back to japan.
so most of the survivors must have been ninjas and samurais
Akashic Soldier wrote:Mech-Viper Prime wrote:only 1% survived the coming of the rifts in japan, and only 25% of Japanese heritage made it back to japan.
so most of the survivors must have been ninjas and samurais
Did someone say ninja?
(Giant will get it.)
Ravenwing wrote:"Killing Dbee's isn't murder, they aren't human, it's pest control!"
Zardoz wrote:You have been raised up from Brutality, to kill the Brutals who multiply, and are legion. To this end, Zardoz your God gave you the gift of the Gun. The Gun is good!
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:yup cowboy samurais riding indian ninja dinosaurs
Akashic Soldier wrote:Mech-Viper Prime wrote:only 1% survived the coming of the rifts in japan, and only 25% of Japanese heritage made it back to japan.
so most of the survivors must have been ninjas and samurais
Did someone say ninja?
(Giant will get it.)
Giant2005 wrote:Doesn't the Ninja rule only come in to play when someone asks a stupid question? Are you implying that this thread is stupid?
See that people? That is how you turn someone's harmless joke into a malicious insult.
The Beast wrote:What's with the necro-threading KC?
Giant2005 wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Giant2005 wrote:I don't understand what the problem is? Tarn said Japan was a quiet cluster of wilderness islands or something like that...
What is the problem? She says the entire planet is covered in wilderness. Is the issue the word quiet? Because quiet does not mean devoid of life.
No, but it doesn't mean "mega-damage samurais and ninjas" either.
The impression that the passage gives is that if there are any people living there, they're going to be pretty much small fishing villages and such with no real industry.
Which is not how the Rifts: Japan book portrays things.
And the thing is, we're not even really discussing whether or not this change is a good or a bad thing (though I'm obviously against it) at this point- we're discussing whether or not it IS a change.
If you can read Tarn's original passage, then read the Rifts: Japan book, and you can honestly say, "Yeah, that book is pretty much what I expected when I read that passage," I'm curious how.
Aside from the return of the republic of Japan (which Tarn may have no knowledge of, even if she had been to Japan), that passage does make me think of the feudal Japan we have.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Giant2005 wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Giant2005 wrote:I don't understand what the problem is? Tarn said Japan was a quiet cluster of wilderness islands or something like that...
What is the problem? She says the entire planet is covered in wilderness. Is the issue the word quiet? Because quiet does not mean devoid of life.
No, but it doesn't mean "mega-damage samurais and ninjas" either.
The impression that the passage gives is that if there are any people living there, they're going to be pretty much small fishing villages and such with no real industry.
Which is not how the Rifts: Japan book portrays things.
And the thing is, we're not even really discussing whether or not this change is a good or a bad thing (though I'm obviously against it) at this point- we're discussing whether or not it IS a change.
If you can read Tarn's original passage, then read the Rifts: Japan book, and you can honestly say, "Yeah, that book is pretty much what I expected when I read that passage," I'm curious how.
Aside from the return of the republic of Japan (which Tarn may have no knowledge of, even if she had been to Japan), that passage does make me think of the feudal Japan we have.
Well, it just so happens that I bought a copy of Rifts Japan a while back, to help out Palladium, and for this kind of occasion.
We know that in the main book, Tarn went to Japan, and saw nothing but a quiet little cluster of wilderness islands.
Did Rifts: Japan stick to that concept?
I don't think so, but maybe I have some of the info wrong- I haven't given the book a thorough read lately, and am currently flipping through to refresh my memory on what's there.
The New Empire, which is the rebuilt Japan, and which does not seem to include any of the cities that rifted in around 87 PA, has (Japan, p. 11):
-A total population of 6.8 million people.
-1.2 million in the main city, Kyoto.
-Cities with an average population of 1d6x100,000
-Towns with populations of 1d6x1000
-Villages with populations of 2d6x100
-"Exploded into power around 1 PA!" (Japan, p. 12)
-Have samurai that "represent the omnipresent military" as well as the law.
The capital city, Kyoto, has a 1,000' Millenium Tree, which helps the locals "fend off the oni and other supernatural horrors that plague the island."
So we're looking at a "quiet little cluster of wilderness islands" that has nearly 7 million people in one region, with a large-scale feudal society complete with entire cities and towns, a society that has thrived for over 70 years longer than the CS has even existed, and an omnipresent military, and that has Millenium Tree, and that is plagued by supernatural horrors.
I can't see that description working together with what's actually there.
Also, there is The Zone, where the oni live.
Japan,p. 24
"The few human villages that exist are enslaved by vile supernatural forces that prey on the helpless humans at their leisure. Even the well-trained and equipped warriors of the Republic are at a disadvantage in the areas where large bands of oni and kappa are in control."
Basically, the entire area of The Zone is made up of tribes of supernatural creatures vying for power and dominance, some of the tribes being the equivalent of small armies.
Not exactly quiet.
Japan, p. 27
Place seems to have quite a few ley lines, for an unremarkable area of wilderness islands.
Oh, and here's another gem: The TW Fire-Breathing Arquebus (p. 37).
IIRC, Techno-Wizardry was originally supposed to have been invented in North America (though I cannot currently find the reference). In any case, it's supposed to be relatively rare.
So this quiet backwater has TW items... and Tarn doesn't think it's noteworthy.
Moreover, they have the TW Fire-Breathing Arquebus, which has this passage in its description:
When the first European travelers arrived in Japan, they brought muskets and arequebuses... which greatly impressed the islanders. Japan was manufacturing copies of those weapons in a matter of years.
Japanese alchemists, eta techno-wizards and tech ninja became fascinated with the concept of firearms. They tried to replicate the effect using magic, and succeeded in creating an equivalent weapon by binding fire elementals to metal replicas of European weapons; this may have been one of the first techno-wizard weapons ever created! During the Great Cataclysm, these weapons became powerful mega-damage "guns" and were used by the desperate survivors who eventually formed some of the low-tech shogunates and kingdoms of Japan. They are especially popular among the eta of the Freelands.
Apparently, Pre-Rifts, and pre-European-contact Japan, had technowizards, alchemists, and tech ninjas, and were able to make working SDC TW weapons.
You would think that Tarn might see at least one of those popular TW weapons, ask a few questions about it, and realize that it might have be interesting to her friends back in Lazlo, instead of shrugging, saying, "this sure is a quiet backwater," and moving on with her life.
Yeah, yeah... I agree that it's not definite that she would have necessarily seen one of these things, but the existence of popular techno-wizardry alone should have logically a) been noticed, and b) been mentioned.
This is a chick that mentions rumors of supernatural creatures and magic... and somehow all this stuff in Japan escaped her attention?
Not to mention the RUNE SWORDS. Granted, they're super-rare and priceless... but there are probably more in Japan than in North America. Might be something she'd hear about and/or notice.
Hell, I'll cut this short.
All in all, I see pretty much no chance in hell that Erin Tarn the famous explorer and Scholar would show up in the islands of Japan, and either miss or dismiss all the demons, mystic warriors, magic weapon, large cities, large population of humans and other species, and a 1,000' tall magic tree.
Read over Tarn's descriptions of other areas.
She notes that the technology in France is equal to early 20th century pre-industrial, and that the population is about 4 million humans and 2 million non-humans.
She notes that England has a population of maybe 400k people with another 400k d-bees, scattered about in tiny villages, with the largest having a population of maybe 3k people.
She notes that the population and tech in Spain is about the same as France, only without as many ley lines.
But with Japan, she notes nothing but that it is a small cluster of wilderness islands.
Their low technology would not be a reason for them to be ignored- it sounds about the same as France and Spain.
The fact that they live mostly in villages would not be a reason for them to be ignored- she notes that most of Britain lives in villages, even though they're smaller than those in Japan.
Basically, she notes stuff worth mentioning.
And a thriving, ancient feudal empire with its own millenium tree, with techno-wizardry, with rune weapons, and with a population greater than pretty much anything in Europe other than the NGR + allies... that's something that she would have noticed, and would have made some kind of mention of.
Ravenwing wrote:"Killing Dbee's isn't murder, they aren't human, it's pest control!"
Zardoz wrote:You have been raised up from Brutality, to kill the Brutals who multiply, and are legion. To this end, Zardoz your God gave you the gift of the Gun. The Gun is good!
Giant2005 wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Oh, and here's another gem: The TW Fire-Breathing Arquebus (p. 37).
IIRC, Techno-Wizardry was originally supposed to have been invented in North America (though I cannot currently find the reference). In any case, it's supposed to be relatively rare.
So this quiet backwater has TW items... and Tarn doesn't think it's noteworthy.
Moreover, they have the TW Fire-Breathing Arquebus, which has this passage in its description:
When the first European travelers arrived in Japan, they brought muskets and arequebuses... which greatly impressed the islanders. Japan was manufacturing copies of those weapons in a matter of years.
Japanese alchemists, eta techno-wizards and tech ninja became fascinated with the concept of firearms. They tried to replicate the effect using magic, and succeeded in creating an equivalent weapon by binding fire elementals to metal replicas of European weapons; this may have been one of the first techno-wizard weapons ever created! During the Great Cataclysm, these weapons became powerful mega-damage "guns" and were used by the desperate survivors who eventually formed some of the low-tech shogunates and kingdoms of Japan. They are especially popular among the eta of the Freelands.
Apparently, Pre-Rifts, and pre-European-contact Japan, had technowizards, alchemists, and tech ninjas, and were able to make working SDC TW weapons.
You would think that Tarn might see at least one of those popular TW weapons, ask a few questions about it, and realize that it might have be interesting to her friends back in Lazlo, instead of shrugging, saying, "this sure is a quiet backwater," and moving on with her life.
Yeah, yeah... I agree that it's not definite that she would have necessarily seen one of these things, but the existence of popular techno-wizardry alone should have logically a) been noticed, and b) been mentioned.
This is a chick that mentions rumors of supernatural creatures and magic... and somehow all this stuff in Japan escaped her attention?
Not to mention the RUNE SWORDS. Granted, they're super-rare and priceless... but there are probably more in Japan than in North America. Might be something she'd hear about and/or notice.
Hell, I'll cut this short.
All in all, I see pretty much no chance in hell that Erin Tarn the famous explorer and Scholar would show up in the islands of Japan, and either miss or dismiss all the demons, mystic warriors, magic weapon, large cities, large population of humans and other species, and a 1,000' tall magic tree.
Read over Tarn's descriptions of other areas.
She notes that the technology in France is equal to early 20th century pre-industrial, and that the population is about 4 million humans and 2 million non-humans.
She notes that England has a population of maybe 400k people with another 400k d-bees, scattered about in tiny villages, with the largest having a population of maybe 3k people.
She notes that the population and tech in Spain is about the same as France, only without as many ley lines.
But with Japan, she notes nothing but that it is a small cluster of wilderness islands.
Their low technology would not be a reason for them to be ignored- it sounds about the same as France and Spain.
The fact that they live mostly in villages would not be a reason for them to be ignored- she notes that most of Britain lives in villages, even though they're smaller than those in Japan.
Basically, she notes stuff worth mentioning.
And a thriving, ancient feudal empire with its own millenium tree, with techno-wizardry, with rune weapons, and with a population greater than pretty much anything in Europe other than the NGR + allies... that's something that she would have noticed, and would have made some kind of mention of.
The Techno-Wizardry is something the Republic of Japan has access to (in small quantities) not the feudal civilization. If she has visited and it was before the Republic showed up, she wouldn't have anythign to report about TW because at the time, it didn't exist.
I have to assume that she isn't particularly impressed with Millennium Trees... She had a lot to say about England but made no mention of Millennium Trees, if she didn't think they were worth noting there, they aren't worth noting in Japan.
I concede that the sheer population of Japan should be worth mentioning and other than Tarn being sloppy, I can't justify that omission.
About the Oni... Keep in mind that Rifts Earth is prime real estate, Demons and the Supernatural have flocked to the planet in droves and are always seeking to make it their own. In that kind of environment, it is safe to assume that they are everywhere regardless of how "quiet" a civilization is. Our interpretation of the term "quiet" means a low tech, boring little town. On Rifts Earth, it is more likely that their interpretation of "quiet" is a low tech, boring little town plagued by demons.
Also keep in mind that Tarn is far from infallible. She considers Russia a wasteland with generally low tech. That is like Rifting into Center and confusing the place with the PF world.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Reread the passage that I took the time to retype.
TW Arquebuses were invented before the coming of the Rifts, and..
During the Great Cataclysm, these weapons became powerful mega-damage "guns" and were used by the desperate survivors who eventually formed some of the low-tech shogunates and kingdoms of Japan.
That's not the Republic of Japan- they weren't around yet. That's describing the survivors of the apocalypse who went on to form some of the current communities.
They are especially popular among the eta of the Freelands.
Notice that the weapons are popular among the eta.
That's the "lowest of the low" who have a status beneath that of the peasants in the New Empire.
The Freelands are not in the Republic of Japan, btw, they are (Japan, 17) "the rugged wilderness north of Honshu and Little Honshu... These lands are unclaimed and home to wilderness people, adventurers, mercenaries, oni, D-Bees, eta, and other undesirables."
It's at the other end of the main island from the Republic of Japan.
Killer Cyborg wrote:About the Oni... Keep in mind that Rifts Earth is prime real estate, Demons and the Supernatural have flocked to the planet in droves and are always seeking to make it their own. In that kind of environment, it is safe to assume that they are everywhere regardless of how "quiet" a civilization is. Our interpretation of the term "quiet" means a low tech, boring little town. On Rifts Earth, it is more likely that their interpretation of "quiet" is a low tech, boring little town plagued by demons.
I very strongly disagree. In fact, that kind of thinking is one of the main problems with the game, since that kind of perception colors the later books.
Reread Rifts, p. 137.
It describes a North America where lone protectors in power armor or a robot vehicle can protect a town or community from outside threats.
There's the sentence, "If a stranger or invader threatens the kingdom, the champion/protector(s) rises to meet the threat."
That's "IF", not "when" or "whenever."
It's not even a certainty that communities will be threatened.
And that's for actual kingdoms!
There's a note that "the concept of a champion who serves as protector and peacekeeper has been adopted by many towns and villages as well."
"Many" is not "All," or even "Most."
A community in Rifts Earth, in the earlier books especially, could be untroubled by mega-damage monsters for weeks, months, years, or even decades, depending on where they were located.
Though those located in hot zones like the edges of Xiticix territory would run into threats far more often.
Reread the original passages that Tarn writes, and notice how often she refers to monsters and demons as being present- something that she wouldn't do if it were something that one could simply assume.
Monsters and demons are always a possibility on Rifts Earth, but not always common.
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:all Rifts Japan is missing is Cyber-knight samurais and Psi-Ninjas
Dr. Doom III wrote:At the time of the writing of Tarn's "Traversing Our Modern World" Erin Tarn had never left North America.
In fact she never actually wrote the book to begin with. It was cobbled together from letters and other writings. She simply had bad information about a lot of places. It says so in the first two paragraphs.
So if people are complaining that the information is wrong blame the unauthorized biographer not Erin Tarn.
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:this is akin to doing a world book for Las Vegas and putting mobsters, wannable rat pack and other singers in the book, occ lounge singer
Killer Cyborg wrote:The passage in question is discussing all the stuff that Tarn knows, though.
We're not talking about other books in this part, though. We're discussing the passages in the original Rifts book solely in the context of that book, because that was my question to you- whether there was anything in that book that indicated that anything at all was going on in Japan.
You took issue with my answer that no, there is absolutely no indication in that book that anything is going on in Japan, but so far your support seems to consist of, in your own words, "I think there's probably something interesting in every part of RIFTs Earth, which is one of the things I LOVE about it!"
Which isn't actually anything IN that book.
My point was simply arriving at and being at a geographical area for a few days does not equate to mastery of all knowledge of it.
cornholioprime wrote:Sorry, but "quiet Cluster of Wilderness Islands" just isn't the same as "Humans: Zero."Killer Cyborg wrote:I'm discussing page 152 of the Rifts book.
All it says is:
"Japan was besieged by tidal waves and volcanic activity that toppled its great cities and killed millions. today it is a quiet little cluster of wilderness islands."
...
I, personally, can't see any major contradiction between the RMB and Rifts: Japan....
TechnoGothic wrote:Dr. Doom III wrote:At the time of the writing of Tarn's "Traversing Our Modern World" Erin Tarn had never left North America.
In fact she never actually wrote the book to begin with. It was cobbled together from letters and other writings. She simply had bad information about a lot of places. It says so in the first two paragraphs.
So if people are complaining that the information is wrong blame the unauthorized biographer not Erin Tarn.
AGREED !!
Besides the people who did visit Japan, might have being like Ghost Hunters or Destination Truth group. They may have spent only a single night or just a few days there before leaving.
Japan is "about the Size of Florida. Might be alittle larger or smaller, That does not matter.
If Florida only had 7 or 8 Million people. Most in Miami, and say Tampa, Orlando Jacksonville as the Tech Cities. The Rest of the state would be sparse as heck. You could travel and never run into other people or know they were there. Say Someone Rifted into the Everglades. They could travel on foot for weeks without seeing someone else.
Japan might look small on a map, but it is not when your there, on foot, in Thick forrests, Moutains, etc...
Ravenwing wrote:"Killing Dbee's isn't murder, they aren't human, it's pest control!"
Zardoz wrote:You have been raised up from Brutality, to kill the Brutals who multiply, and are legion. To this end, Zardoz your God gave you the gift of the Gun. The Gun is good!
Dr. Doom III wrote:At the time of the writing of Tarn's "Traversing Our Modern World" Erin Tarn had never left North America.
In fact she never actually wrote the book to begin with. It was cobbled together from letters and other writings. She simply had bad information about a lot of places. It says so in the first two paragraphs.
So if people are complaining that the information is wrong blame the unauthorized biographer not Erin Tarn.
Giant2005 wrote: Now with this new-found clarity, I have to say that those items are the most ridiculous thing Palladium has ever put in print.
Monsters and demons are always a possibility on Rifts Earth, but not always common.
All the nations described on Rifts Earth are either actively trying to get their hands on more land or have enemies that are trying to take their land. Logic dictates that if you are willing to try and steal land from the strong, you would also be happy taking it from the weak (unless you had some sort of moral code that prevented that).
Killer Cyborg wrote:That IS part of the point that I'm trying to make.
If I were to sum up Palladium's chief tragic failing, it would be that they don't seem to understand the power of what they print, that how they describe the game in one section affects the rest of the game.
Like how the lack of description of "boring" SDC stuff in the game leads players and later writers to assume that that stuff isn't really as common as MDC stuff.
Like how changing a rule here and a rule there can have drastic long-term consequences.
Which is why what started off as a fairly reasonable post-apocalyptic game setting and system has evolved into something that many people have abandoned as absurd, and that puts off many potential new customers.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Dr. Doom III wrote:At the time of the writing of Tarn's "Traversing Our Modern World" Erin Tarn had never left North America.
In fact she never actually wrote the book to begin with. It was cobbled together from letters and other writings. She simply had bad information about a lot of places. It says so in the first two paragraphs.
So if people are complaining that the information is wrong blame the unauthorized biographer not Erin Tarn.
Doom, you are wrong so many times there that I'm not going to bother to address them, only to ask you to support your claims.
Dr. Doom III wrote:At the time of the writing of Tarn's "Traversing Our Modern World" Erin Tarn had never left North America.
In fact she never actually wrote the book to begin with. It was cobbled together from letters and other writings. She simply had bad information about a lot of places. It says so in the first two paragraphs.
So if people are complaining that the information is wrong blame the unauthorized biographer not Erin Tarn.
Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:I'm not sure if its possible, but if it isn't, then possible will just have to get over it.
Ninjabunny wrote:You are playing to have fun and be a part of a story,no one is aiming to "beat" the GM, nor should any GM be looking to beat his players.
Marrowlight wrote: The Shameless Plug would be a good new account name for you.
ALAshbaugh wrote:Because DINOSAURS.
Proseksword wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:That IS part of the point that I'm trying to make.
If I were to sum up Palladium's chief tragic failing, it would be that they don't seem to understand the power of what they print, that how they describe the game in one section affects the rest of the game.
Like how the lack of description of "boring" SDC stuff in the game leads players and later writers to assume that that stuff isn't really as common as MDC stuff.
Like how changing a rule here and a rule there can have drastic long-term consequences.
Which is why what started off as a fairly reasonable post-apocalyptic game setting and system has evolved into something that many people have abandoned as absurd, and that puts off many potential new customers.
RIFTs was never a fairly reasonable post-apocalyptic game setting. It was originally a goofy, cornball post-apocalyptic game with guys flying around in giant skulls with their pal poochy, shiny mecha with ludicrously large shoulder cannons, Popeye the sailor man running around with shunts in his head, and roid-raging was a character class! To be honest, I found RIFTs utterly ridiculous and laughable up until sometime between the release of RIFTs Japan and the release of Juicer Uprisings. I find the later, sci-fi/fantasy mash-up world of RIFTs to be infinitely more internally consistent and enjoyable than the early "The man with the laspistol is king" stuff.
You complain that the writers have gotten the impression that MDC is "more common" than SDC stuff. Isn't Kevin the primary writer for RIFTs? If he feels that way, isn't it his creation, and isn't that how it's supposed to be?
Isn't it possible that Kevin's early writing on RIFTs gave players a different impression than what he intended, and that in later work he made it more clear what his intentions were?
Isn't it possible, that as Kevin explained in his Game Designer notes for RIFTS Ultimate Edition, the rules aren't all that important, and take a back seat to the characters and story? Isn't it also possible that he doesn't see a problem with changing the rules on the fly, because that's what he expects GMs to do: alter the game to suit the needs of their players?
Dr. Doom III wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Dr. Doom III wrote:At the time of the writing of Tarn's "Traversing Our Modern World" Erin Tarn had never left North America.
In fact she never actually wrote the book to begin with. It was cobbled together from letters and other writings. She simply had bad information about a lot of places. It says so in the first two paragraphs.
So if people are complaining that the information is wrong blame the unauthorized biographer not Erin Tarn.
Doom, you are wrong so many times there that I'm not going to bother to address them, only to ask you to support your claims.
All I have to do to support it is direct you to the first two paragraphs of the "Traversing Our Modern World" section of the Rifts: Main Book. Which I already did.
The Galactus Kid wrote:I can't believe I'm about to say this...
Doom is 100% correct.
Dr. Doom III wrote:At the time of the writing of Tarn's "Traversing Our Modern World" Erin Tarn had never left North America.
Dr. Doom III wrote:In fact she never actually wrote the book to begin with. It was cobbled together from letters and other writings.
Rifts original main book; Page 137 wrote:What follows is a brief world overview written by historian and explorer, Erin Tarn.
Rifts original main book; Page 137 wrote:The excerpt which follows is a world overview commissioned by the Council of Learning at Lazlo.
Rifts original main book; Page 137 wrote:I still can not believe that I have let you rascals buy me ...
Dr. Doom III wrote:She simply had bad information about a lot of places. It says so in the first two paragraphs.
Dr. Doom III wrote:So if people are complaining that the information is wrong blame the unauthorized biographer not Erin Tarn.
Proseksword wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:That IS part of the point that I'm trying to make.
If I were to sum up Palladium's chief tragic failing, it would be that they don't seem to understand the power of what they print, that how they describe the game in one section affects the rest of the game.
Like how the lack of description of "boring" SDC stuff in the game leads players and later writers to assume that that stuff isn't really as common as MDC stuff.
Like how changing a rule here and a rule there can have drastic long-term consequences.
Which is why what started off as a fairly reasonable post-apocalyptic game setting and system has evolved into something that many people have abandoned as absurd, and that puts off many potential new customers.
RIFTs was never a fairly reasonable post-apocalyptic game setting.
It was originally a goofy, cornball post-apocalyptic game with guys flying around in giant skulls with their pal poochy, shiny mecha with ludicrously large shoulder cannons, Popeye the sailor man running around with shunts in his head, and roid-raging was a character class! To be honest, I found RIFTs utterly ridiculous and laughable up until sometime between the release of RIFTs Japan and the release of Juicer Uprisings. I find the later, sci-fi/fantasy mash-up world of RIFTs to be infinitely more internally consistent and enjoyable than the early "The man with the laspistol is king" stuff.
You complain that the writers have gotten the impression that MDC is "more common" than SDC stuff. Isn't Kevin the primary writer for RIFTs? If he feels that way, isn't it his creation, and isn't that how it's supposed to be?
Isn't it possible that Kevin's early writing on RIFTs gave players a different impression than what he intended, and that in later work he made it more clear what his intentions were?
Isn't it possible, that as Kevin explained in his Game Designer notes for RIFTS Ultimate Edition, the rules aren't all that important, and take a back seat to the characters and story? Isn't it also possible that he doesn't see a problem with changing the rules on the fly, because that's what he expects GMs to do: alter the game to suit the needs of their players?
DhAkael wrote:So yeah; MDC is common-place, the modern battlefield is NOT for the unprotected and unarmoured, and anyone who feels strongly enough to dislike this fact can either switch to oh..I dunno... EXALTED(tm,cr,etc) or go play HU2 (which is all SDC).
flatline wrote:If MD weapons and MDC armor are truly rare, then magic and super psionics become dramatically more powerful.
I've never played a campaign where MDC was rare, so I can't actually attest to how that changes the feel of the game.
--flatline
Prysus wrote:This is true, but a misleading truth. "Traversing Our Modern World" is indeed cobbled together from various sources (many of which are Tarn herself, but not all). With that said, this truth has NOTHING to do with the excerpts that follow. Let's focus just on the excerpts section ...Rifts original main book; Page 137 wrote:What follows is a brief world overview written by historian and explorer, Erin Tarn.Rifts original main book; Page 137 wrote:The excerpt which follows is a world overview commissioned by the Council of Learning at Lazlo.Rifts original main book; Page 137 wrote:I still can not believe that I have let you rascals buy me ...
So while the book itself is written by many, the excerpts we're reading were writtten by Erin Tarn. She may not have endorsed the book due to the "vast gaps in her knowledge of the world" but she DID endorse these excerpts.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Proseksword wrote:Isn't it possible that Kevin's early writing on RIFTs gave players a different impression than what he intended, and that in later work he made it more clear what his intentions were?
No.
Proseksword wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Proseksword wrote:Isn't it possible that Kevin's early writing on RIFTs gave players a different impression than what he intended, and that in later work he made it more clear what his intentions were?
No.
And yet, in RIFTs Canada, written by Kevin Siembieda and ONLY Kevin Siembieda, he makes it clear that some of what appears in Traversing Our Modern World is in error, because Erin Tarn is, herself, in error. Perhaps it is just you who have the wrong impression of how authoritative this article was to be?
Giant2005 wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Reread the passage that I took the time to retype.
TW Arquebuses were invented before the coming of the Rifts, and..
During the Great Cataclysm, these weapons became powerful mega-damage "guns" and were used by the desperate survivors who eventually formed some of the low-tech shogunates and kingdoms of Japan.
That's not the Republic of Japan- they weren't around yet. That's describing the survivors of the apocalypse who went on to form some of the current communities.
They are especially popular among the eta of the Freelands.
Notice that the weapons are popular among the eta.
That's the "lowest of the low" who have a status beneath that of the peasants in the New Empire.
The Freelands are not in the Republic of Japan, btw, they are (Japan, 17) "the rugged wilderness north of Honshu and Little Honshu... These lands are unclaimed and home to wilderness people, adventurers, mercenaries, oni, D-Bees, eta, and other undesirables."
It's at the other end of the main island from the Republic of Japan.
You are right, I didn't fully read that part (actually I think I have never really fully read that part). Now with this new-found clarity, I have to say that those items are the most ridiculous thing Palladium has ever put in print. The notion that the world discovered techno-wizardry before they discovered wizardry is frankly the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
I have just decided to retcon the whole thing and assume that that passage is something that has been muddled by history. It isn't cannon but at least it doesn't decimate any sense of canon...
Proseksword wrote:Prysus wrote:This is true, but a misleading truth. "Traversing Our Modern World" is indeed cobbled together from various sources (many of which are Tarn herself, but not all). With that said, this truth has NOTHING to do with the excerpts that follow. Let's focus just on the excerpts section ...Rifts original main book; Page 137 wrote:What follows is a brief world overview written by historian and explorer, Erin Tarn.Rifts original main book; Page 137 wrote:The excerpt which follows is a world overview commissioned by the Council of Learning at Lazlo.Rifts original main book; Page 137 wrote:I still can not believe that I have let you rascals buy me ...
So while the book itself is written by many, the excerpts we're reading were writtten by Erin Tarn. She may not have endorsed the book due to the "vast gaps in her knowledge of the world" but she DID endorse these excerpts.
That's a logical fallacy.
If she didn't want it published or would not officially attach her name to it, it's quite possible that part of the reason why she refused to do so was that she knew she included inaccurate information which might have been percieved as truth. Why would she do so? Maybe it was written while she was still unestablished and looking to impress others, information could have been included as a personal prank on those she was corresponding with, or she may have simply made a mistake.
Further, it's possible that despite the fact the book Traversing Our Modern World attributes these writings to Erin Tarn, some or all of it might not be hers at all, and may in fact be the concoctions of the editor/compiler or the result of the contamination of data.
As Traversing Our Modern World has been compiled without Erin Tarn's consent by a third party from numerous documents, not all written by Tarn, poor editing could result in writing being incorrectly attributed to Tarn, sections of text being ommited or replaced by other writings from elsewhere and other authors, and even be the result of the editor altering the document to make it sell better!
Finally, RIFTs Canada out and out admits that Erin Tarn's data can and is inaccurate:
pg.10 "Furthermore, while much of her writings and speculations are incredibly insightful and accurate, because they are based on her own personal experiences and those of trusted associates, some of her information is inaccurate - reflecting current beliefs, misinformation, rumor or propaganda."
pg.18 "In her renowned book, Traversing Our Modern World Erin Tarn incorrectly estimated the population of Ishpeming circa 98 P.A. when she had last visited, at approximately 100,000. In truth, the population topped 250,000...."
Proseksword wrote:I'll give you that cyber-samurai and ninjas weren't probably in Kevin's mind when he wrote that for the RMB. Chances are, nothing was.
Proseksword wrote:That's a logical fallacy. If she didn't want it published or would not officially attach her name to it, it's quite possible that part of the reason why she refused to do so was that she knew she included inaccurate information which might have been percieved as truth. Why would she do so? Maybe it was written while she was still unestablished and looking to impress others, information could have been included as a personal prank on those she was corresponding with, or she may have simply made a mistake.
Further, it's possible that despite the fact the book Traversing Our Modern World attributes these writings to Erin Tarn, some or all of it might not be hers at all, and may in fact be the concoctions of the editor/compiler or the result of the contamination of data. As Traversing Our Modern World has been compiled without Erin Tarn's consent by a third party from numerous documents, not all written by Tarn, poor editing could result in writing being incorrectly attributed to Tarn, sections of text being ommited or replaced by other writings from elsewhere and other authors, and even be the result of the editor altering the document to make it sell better!
[snip]
In short, unless it's corraborated elsewhere, Traversing Our Modern World is an unreliable hack-job, which at best provides rumors of what may be, but doesn't come close to approaching the status of undeniable truth that some seem to be attributing to it.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Any of which turns Tarn from a reliable narrator into an unreliable narrator, which weakens the setting.
Only if you want to assume that Kevin Siembieda, when he was writing Rifts, decided to have the primary (and very nearly sole) description of the setting come from an imaginary forged document that got important details wrong.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Proseksword wrote:I'll give you that cyber-samurai and ninjas weren't probably in Kevin's mind when he wrote that for the RMB. Chances are, nothing was.
Then why the hell are you arguing that the information that he wrote on Japan in the main book was written to be incorrect?
Why is THAT so much more desirable of an event to you than that a "shoot-from-the-hip" kind of guy honestly wrote one thing, then years later changed his mind?
Prysus wrote:The excerpts (those that we were reading in the book) ARE from Erin Tarn (first sentence, written by Kevin, not some NPC).
Then we see (again) that the Council of Lazlo commissioned her to do the excerpts we're reading. In the first sentence of the excerpt, we read that she ACCEPTED that commission. Do you comprehend how that is DIFFERENT than a book she didn't endorse?
If you're going to shoot from the hip, then you should be able to admit it won't always be consistent and things will change. Why there's an actual argument that nothing changed is actually what confuses me. The degree of that change I can see being left to debate. Arguing that there is no change just seems silly though.
Proseksword wrote:What part of that disproves that she could have made mistakes? Mistakes that might lead to not want to put her name on it if published in a public and official capacity? That was my point.
Proseksword wrote:Because I feel that a large portion of the section of the RMB was written with deliberate half-truths and false information to be "in character" and provide adventure hooks. What was written therefore had nothing to do with what Kevin would eventually write for those geographical locations, because Kevin deliberately set it up to be vague and potentially wrong, so that he (and GMs) could do whatever they'd like!
Proseksword wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Any of which turns Tarn from a reliable narrator into an unreliable narrator, which weakens the setting.
Actually, I feel it makes it better. The idea that some middle-aged person could just tramp about this allegedly dangerous world and magically know most everything there is to know, without ever being mistaken or in error, would be the height of stupid, not to mention boring as sin.
Only if you want to assume that Kevin Siembieda, when he was writing Rifts, decided to have the primary (and very nearly sole) description of the setting come from an imaginary forged document that got important details wrong.
Considering he made it very clear it was from a forged document with sketchy information, yeah, I do assume that to be the case.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Proseksword wrote:I'll give you that cyber-samurai and ninjas weren't probably in Kevin's mind when he wrote that for the RMB. Chances are, nothing was.
Then why the hell are you arguing that the information that he wrote on Japan in the main book was written to be incorrect?
Why is THAT so much more desirable of an event to you than that a "shoot-from-the-hip" kind of guy honestly wrote one thing, then years later changed his mind?
Because Kevin's style of writing is about allowing the players and GMs to decide, and it is very much in keeping with his style to write rumors, some true, some not.
Hell, he's got sourcebooks with whole sections on "100 random rumors", all intended as adventure hooks, some true, some not. Kevin enjoys writing false information and half-truths, because those are the stuff adventures are made of - exploring, and uncovering the truth.
Prysus wrote:Greetings and Salutations. Nothing disproves she could make mistakes, naturally. But by context there's enough to gather Erin Tarn (specifically) is meant to be accurate. Such as the fact she didn't compile nor approve of the Traversing Our Modern World. Why would it matter ... if she's just inaccurate anyways? If she's so incompetent, why does her opinion matter at all? So why does it matter if she does or doesn't approve of something if it's just as inaccurate either way?
Proseksword wrote:Prysus wrote:If you're going to shoot from the hip, then you should be able to admit it won't always be consistent and things will change. Why there's an actual argument that nothing changed is actually what confuses me. The degree of that change I can see being left to debate. Arguing that there is no change just seems silly though.
Because I feel that a large portion of the section of the RMB was written with deliberate half-truths and false information to be "in character" and provide adventure hooks.
What was written therefore had nothing to do with what Kevin would eventually write for those geographical locations, because Kevin deliberately set it up to be vague and potentially wrong, so that he (and GMs) could do whatever they'd like!
Killer Cyborg wrote:You seriously think that the stuff from her books is "most everything there is to know?"
Forged?
Quit making stuff up.
He also enjoys writing facts, so that players and GMs have something solid to start with, whether or not they later decide to change it.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Proseksword wrote:Prysus wrote:If you're going to shoot from the hip, then you should be able to admit it won't always be consistent and things will change. Why there's an actual argument that nothing changed is actually what confuses me. The degree of that change I can see being left to debate. Arguing that there is no change just seems silly though.
Because I feel that a large portion of the section of the RMB was written with deliberate half-truths and false information to be "in character" and provide adventure hooks.
Your feelings are noted, but they don't actually prove, demonstrate, or really indicate anything.
What was written had little to do with what Kevin would eventually write for those geographical locations, because Kevin had no idea how well Rifts would take off, and that he'd end up writing dozens of World Books and Sourcebooks.
Other parts, like Japan, were intended to be all the information that anybody would ever need to know about the area as far as canon material goes.
flatline wrote:If MD weapons and MDC armor are truly rare, then magic and super psionics become dramatically more powerful.
I've never played a campaign where MDC was rare, so I can't actually attest to how that changes the feel of the game.
--flatline