What location did Erin Tarn ACTUALLY visited?

[The Baron of chaos]

Is something that Killer Cyborg made me ponder.
EXACTLY, what places in the world our favorite Angel Lansbury clone has actualy physically visitied and to what extent(i doubt looking at the shores of japan from a ship, Plinio the leder style, do count)?
I mean the report on old RMB say some of the things were just stories told her by traveller she interviewed. And thinking she visited all those places imply she is superhuman to soe extent. So i want to know.
Just because
Also...KC if you ever come to naples, call me....I've a plenty of knuckle sandwitch for you!

[Killer Cyborg]

Is something that Killer Cyborg made me ponder.
EXACTLY, what places in the world our favorite Angel Lansbury clone has actualy physically visitied and to what extent(i doubt looking at the shores of japan from a ship, Plinio the leder style, do count)?
I mean the report on old RMB say some of the things were just stories told her by traveller she interviewed. And thinking she visited all those places imply she is superhuman to soe extent. So i want to know.

The excerpt from the main book discusses places that she has been- that's why she prefaces it with describing it as "her journeys."
Some of the stuff she writes in that excerpt is rumor or second-hand information, but those times are noted.

As to what extent, that's hard to say, since we only have one small part of the book. Later chapters would have revealed more, but we never saw them.

I suppose the first part in finding out as much as we can about where exactly she has been would be to compile a list of the books that have writings by her, then sift through them for information.

From memory, I believe she has passages in:
Rifts
RUE
Vampire Kingdoms
Wormwood(?)
England(?)
Triax
Coalition War Campaign

and probably some other stuff.

[Armorlord]

As of the old RMB, she had been roughly no where.
Chitown Library and Lazlo are about it.

Since then she visited the northern most portion of Mexico, Wormwood, England, and the NGR. At some point see also tagged along with the heroes seeking to deal with the Four Horsemen.
All of that was post-RMB though, so she is almost entirely basing her information on rumor and guesswork. There is a reason she wasn't prepared to publish anything yet. The RMB is the excerpts from the Lazlo-published book gathered from what letters and research of her's that they could find when she was thought dead when she disappeared in Mexico.

[gaaahhhh]

To paraphrase an old song:
She's been everywhere.

[Mallak's Place]

Is something that Killer Cyborg made me ponder.
EXACTLY, what places in the world our favorite Angel Lansbury clone has actualy physically visitied and to what extent(i doubt looking at the shores of japan from a ship, Plinio the leder style, do count)?
I mean the report on old RMB say some of the things were just stories told her by traveller she interviewed. And thinking she visited all those places imply she is superhuman to soe extent. So i want to know.

The excerpt from the main book discusses places that she has been- that's why she prefaces it with describing it as "her journeys."
Some of the stuff she writes in that excerpt is rumor or second-hand information, but those times are noted.

As to what extent, that's hard to say, since we only have one small part of the book. Later chapters would have revealed more, but we never saw them.

I suppose the first part in finding out as much as we can about where exactly she has been would be to compile a list of the books that have writings by her, then sift through them for information.

From memory, I believe she has passages in:
Rifts
RUE
Vampire Kingdoms
Wormwood(?)
England(?)
Triax
Coalition War Campaign

and probably some other stuff.

Don't forget Africa

[Killer Cyborg]

As of the old RMB, she had been roughly no where.
Chitown Library and Lazlo are about it.

If you find anything in the books that support that claim, quote it.

[glitterboy2098]

from her letters..

Lazlo (references to having lived there), Texas (where she hired the shifter to try and bypass northern mexico, WB1), Wormwood (DB1), England (WB3),"Northern Africa' (no more specific location given in WB4), The New German Republic (WB5)

Main, Vermont, New York (WB23), some point on the east coast (WB7, where she met the bandits with the lorica wraith)

[Proseksword]

As of the old RMB, she had been roughly no where.
Chitown Library and Lazlo are about it.

If you find anything in the books that support that claim, quote it.

Well, in RIFTs England, she specifically says she's never been to Europe, despite talking authoritatively about it in the RMB.

It also heavily implies she's never been to Africa or Asia....

[TechnoGothic]

Yeah, Before Vampire Kingdoms, Wormwood, England, NGR, etc... We know she did not Travel anywhere, besides in the CS, FoM, or Lazo areas.

We know that because the WB says she did not, and that traveling is new to her.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yeah, Before Vampire Kingdoms, Wormwood, England, NGR, etc... We know she did not Travel anywhere, besides in the CS, FoM, or Lazo areas.

We know that because the WB says she did not, and that traveling is new to her.

Quote the relevant passage.

[Killer Cyborg]

As of the old RMB, she had been roughly no where.
Chitown Library and Lazlo are about it.

If you find anything in the books that support that claim, quote it.

Well, in RIFTs England, she specifically says she's never been to Europe, despite talking authoritatively about it in the RMB.

It also heavily implies she's never been to Africa or Asia....

Quote the relevant passages.

[Proseksword]

RIFTs England, pg. 8 "I have never been to Europe and feel like a child about to go on her first big trip."

"From there, who knows? I had considered exporing Africa, but I am told strange and terrible supernatural forces are afoot. I'm toying with a trek to Asia, but don't know if these aging bones can handle so much adventure."

[Akashic Soldier]

I thought everyone knew that Erin Tarn died in PA 105. She has been an A.R.C.H.I.E. Three replica ever since, spreading propaganda to draw attention away from A3's Shemarrian activities.

[Killer Cyborg]

RIFTs England, pg. 8 "I have never been to Europe and feel like a child about to go on her first big trip."

Thank you.
Apparently, she doesn't consider Britain to be part of Europe, because she's standing in England when she writes that she has never been to Europe, and that she is about to go on her first big trip: France, Belgium, and Germany.

"From there, who knows? I had considered exporing Africa, but I am told strange and terrible supernatural forces are afoot. I'm toying with a trek to Asia, but don't know if these aging bones can handle so much adventure."

This tells us that she has never explored Africa, not that she has never been there.
From her passage in the original Rifts book, it seems pretty clear that she never explored Africa, so this fits.

[TechnoGothic]

Ohh and she still does not see much herself, relying on 2nd hand accounts for much of her information. She does not care if the have a biased view, she just writes it down as facts.

Erin Tarn is like those reporters from the Wild West, who wrote down the adventures of Gunslingers. Most of the information just is not true or partial uncomplete information from someone elses' viewpoint.

[Proseksword]

Ohh and she still does not see much herself, relying on 2nd hand accounts for much of her information. She does not care if the have a biased view, she just writes it down as facts.

Erin Tarn is like those reporters from the Wild West, who wrote down the adventures of Gunslingers. Most of the information just is not true or partial uncomplete information from someone elses' viewpoint.

Yep, that's always been the impression I've gotten too. It makes a lot more sense, in a way. Erin Tarn is just a normal human. Sure, she's spoken with wizards and dragons and whatnot that have been to all these places and written down what they said, but she's only been to a few specific locations. She simply doesn't have the power to get there or survive on her own.

[Killer Cyborg]

Ohh and she still does not see much herself, relying on 2nd hand accounts for much of her information. She does not care if the have a biased view, she just writes it down as facts.

Actually, she writes it down as rumors and second-hand information.

[Killer Cyborg]

she's only been to a few specific locations.

Interesting theory.
How few locations would you wager?

[TechnoGothic]

she's only been to a few specific locations.

Interesting theory.
How few locations would you wager?

CS State and Cities of course. The area around the great lakes, lazlo, new lazlo, old bones, tolkeen.

In 100 PA or whatever year she left for her big adventure, she went to...Texas, North Mexico, Rifted to Wormwood, then returned in England, then traveled to germany then to north africa. From there she returned home to lazlo. She still journeies the CS lands and great lakes areas for some reason.

[llywelyn]

Interesting theory.
How few locations would you wager?

I get it that it was important to you in some vital way that Japan be an ashen pile (although you mistook quiet for destroyed), but I really don't get why it sticks in your craw decades after Japan was published or why you're fighting this.

She was specifically written as ignorant of the world, speaking tersely and in vague generalities completely inconsistent with first-hand knowledge.

She'd tried thrice to get to Atlantis and failed. She'd tried to get to Mexico and had to turn back.

Since the book was an unauthorized collation of her letters, it's completely unclear whether she felt England's "energies coursing through [her] body" before or on the same trip that necessitated her bribed letters (making it her first trip abroad).

She [or her "editor"] speaks declaratively about France and other areas without any personal observations in the same way she says "India is a jungle with little human life and even less technology. It is rumored to be inhabited by savage, cannibalistic [sic - Palladium repeatedly uses "cannibal" where it means "man-eating"] D-Bees." The sensible way to read those passages - especially in light of the apparent extraordinary effort taken just to get to England, her disapproval of nexus-hopping, & her later admission she'd never been on the Continent - is that she's reporting gossip just as she said she was ("recountings from people who spoke to her at length on world subjects".)

Yes, "Kevin" spoke "declaratively" - he also left himself at least three layers of outs. (Not that it helped with New and Spirit West, unless we later find out Erin had some reason to hide the Indian megacities from Lazlo.)

[Mallak's Place]

she's only been to a few specific locations.

Interesting theory.
How few locations would you wager?

CS State and Cities of course. The area around the great lakes, lazlo, new lazlo, old bones, tolkeen.

In 100 PA or whatever year she left for her big adventure, she went to...Texas, North Mexico, Rifted to Wormwood, then returned in England, then traveled to germany then to north africa. From there she returned home to lazlo. She still journeies the CS lands and great lakes areas for some reason.

She went from England to africa to be part of "The Gathering of Heros" against the Four Horseman and met Victor Lazlo, then went with Germany with Victor after the horsemen were defeated

[llywelyn]

CS State and Cities of course. The area around the great lakes, lazlo, new lazlo, old bones, tolkeen.

Also, she'd already been to Texas at least once (when she turned back & the knight went on) and possibly twice ("20 years before") and spoke clearly of personally visiting the Canadian wastes, California, and the West.

(The complete inconsistency with the West and its books might suggest she was lying through her teeth, except KC rightly notes that the first Sourcebook spoke ex cathedra and made the same mistakes.)

[Killer Cyborg]

Interesting theory.
How few locations would you wager?

I get it that it was important to you in some vital way that Japan be an ashen pile (although you mistook quiet for destroyed),

Actually, I mistook "quiet little cluster of wilderness islands" for just what it says, instead of reading it to mean "feudal empire with millions of people, plagued by demons, and armed with rune-weapons and techno-wizardry."

but I really don't get why it sticks in your craw decades after Japan was published or why you're fighting this.

It sticks in my craw because it's still bad writing and a bad decision.
All I'm fighting is people who a) disagree with my opinion, and b) people who claim that the Rifts Japan book is NOT a change from the original setting.
As to why I'm fighting those things, it's for the same reason why I get into most arguments- people want to argue with me about it.
If people just said, "Well, you might not like the changed setting, but I do!", it would be a short conversation.
Instead, they keep wanting to insist that it's not bad writing, and that it's not a change, when it's demonstrably both.

She was specifically written as ignorant of the world, speaking tersely and in vague generalities completely inconsistent with first-hand knowledge.

She was specifically written as having gaps in her knowledge.
Which is why there's a lot of stuff that she doesn't cover, and a lot of stuff that she doesn't even address beyond "I know nothing of Australia or the rest of the world."
But having gaps in her knowledge does not mean that she was intended to be incorrect about the information that she presents as fact.
And she presents the information about Japan as fact.

She'd tried thrice to get to Atlantis and failed. She'd tried to get to Mexico and had to turn back.

Yup. And she mentions this.
She makes no mention of "I tried to go to Japan, but couldn't" or "I wish I could have seen these quiet little islands first-hand."

Since the book was an unauthorized collation of her letters, it's completely unclear whether she felt England's "energies coursing through [her] body" before or on the same trip that necessitated her bribed letters (making it her first trip abroad).

The letters in Rifts: England were written 3 years after the letter in the RMB (6 months, in Tarn's time).
And when she gets to Stonehenge unintentionally via rift, she instantly recognizes it.
Sure, she might have recognized it by description or photographs, but combined with the fact that her earlier letters mention her being there, it seems pretty clear that she'd been there before.

She [or her "editor"] speaks declaratively about France and other areas without any personal observations in the same way she says "India is a jungle with little human life and even less technology. It is rumored to be inhabited by savage, cannibalistic [sic - Palladium repeatedly uses "cannibal" where it means "man-eating"] D-Bees." The sensible way to read those passages - especially in light of the apparent extraordinary effort taken just to get to England, her disapproval of nexus-hopping, & her later admission she'd never been on the Continent - is that she's reporting gossip just as she said she was ("recountings from people who spoke to her at length on world subjects".)

Except that with India, she mentions that she's going off of rumors.
No such mention with France or Spain, places that she describes in the context of "her journeys," not in the context of "places that I've heard of."

Yes, "Kevin" spoke "declaratively" - he also left himself at least three layers of outs. (Not that it helped with New and Spirit West, unless we later find out Erin had some reason to hide the Indian megacities from Lazlo.)

See, that's the thing- Palladium changes stuff all the time.
The New West/Spirit West books not only depart drastically from Tarn's description as far as population goes, they depart drastically from the descriptions by Kevin Siembieda himself, speaking as himself, in SB1- information as canon as the fact that SAMAS have 25 MDC in their main body.
Also, those books depart drastically from the original RMB stats for dinosaurs, where a T-Rex might have 40 MDC on a good day, and inflict a couple D6 MD with their bite.
Because Palladium changes things. OFTEN.
Sometimes it's because they decide to change things, sometimes it's on accident, but it's been a consistent pattern for at least the entire duration of the Rifts line.
Hell, there was stuff that changed just between the RMB and SB1.

So assuming that Kevin, when writing the RMB, a book that he thought would have only one World Book to cover the entire planet, when writing in the context of Erin Tarn, who makes specific note time and time again when she's going off of rumors or other unreliable information, would make the decision to lump Japan in with the places actually described instead of the places NOT described ("I know nothing of Australia and the rest of the world), but NOT intend for what he says to be canon, seems like one heck of a stretch compared to "Kevin wrote one thing in the RMB, then later changed it."

But for the most part, discussions of Japan specifically can be taken to the other thread.

[Killer Cyborg]

she's only been to a few specific locations.

Interesting theory.
How few locations would you wager?

I was expecting to hear back from Proseksword on this by now.
Oh, well.

[Proseksword]

she's only been to a few specific locations.

Interesting theory.
How few locations would you wager?

I was expecting to hear back from Proseksword on this by now.
Oh, well.

Sorry, guy. I've only got time for one sophist game with you! I don't really know that there's ever been, or ever will be a truly accurate list of everywhere Erin Tarn has been.

I'm sure you'd tell me she's been to the moon and challenge me to find text that says she hasn't. Unfortunately, I've got better things to do than chase that wild goose.

[Killer Cyborg]

she's only been to a few specific locations.

Interesting theory.
How few locations would you wager?

I was expecting to hear back from Proseksword on this by now.
Oh, well.

Sorry, guy. I've only got time for one sophist game with you! I don't really know that there's ever been, or ever will be a truly accurate list of everywhere Erin Tarn has been.

Hey, you made a statement, I was just trying to get you to commit to it.
If you don't want to, I can't blame you.

I'll just assume that by "a few," you mean "less than 10," to give you some leeway.

I'm sure you'd tell me she's been to the moon and challenge me to find text that says she hasn't.

Actually, I'm certain that she has never been to the moon, and my point here wasn't to challenge you to prove your words, just to get you to commit to them before I demonstrated them to be incorrect.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

she's only been to a few specific locations.

Interesting theory.
How few locations would you wager?

I was expecting to hear back from Proseksword on this by now.
Oh, well.

Sorry, guy. I've only got time for one sophist game with you! I don't really know that there's ever been, or ever will be a truly accurate list of everywhere Erin Tarn has been.

I'm sure you'd tell me she's been to the moon and challenge me to find text that says she hasn't. Unfortunately, I've got better things to do than chase that wild goose.

maybe not but i have it from a reliable source, she knows what color Karl's old bedroom was

[The Baron of chaos]

Actually, I mistook "quiet little cluster of wilderness islands" for just what it says, instead of reading it to mean "feudal empire with millions of people, plagued by demons, and armed with rune-weapons and techno-wizardry."

Hmm apart that it was quite clear that that brief world overview WAS NEVER intended to be the final word on Rifts Earth status, and this was repeated to you so much that I suspect you have sort of selective perception deficit of sort, you assume way too much from what..3 stinky lines of text. And Why byou WANT ot be so is something i dont get. Because YOU WANT that even against the updated canon, is your entire point.

It sticks in my craw because it's still bad writing and a bad decision.
All I'm fighting is people who a) disagree with my opinion, and b) people who claim that the Rifts Japan book is NOT a change from the original setting.
As to why I'm fighting those things, it's for the same reason why I get into most arguments- people want to argue with me about it.
If people just said, "Well, you might not like the changed setting, but I do!", it would be a short conversation.
Instead, they keep wanting to insist that it's not bad writing, and that it's not a change, when it's demonstrably both.

Ahh so one cannot disagree wiht your opinion? Anywya the fact is that...IS FUN to argue with you . There is something in you that make people want to metaphorically punch you in the face(I imagine a face sneering and looking all self entitled and snobbish...I know i'm likely wrong, but I kind of get that feeling, you're like the bad guy form animal house movie ). As for being bad writing, it is not perfect and lacking the good part of Japanese setting(I would have liked more on TW ninjas than Juicer and Crazy ninja to be honest), but is not that bad, in all and for all, and is kind of fun. The Bionic Dragons model are interesting, the Sohei Monk is something i liked a lot. And Samurai is nice(but i agree that giving all of them RUNE weapons is insane, but i explained in other thread that is due to being painted in corner by MDC concept, once you give up technology - and Nobunaga teaching- you need some way to survive.....Ok i admit they did some mistakes that could hav ebene avoided..not good to sustain my theory )

And she presents the information about Japan as fact.

hmm we don't know, thos eare tidbits of information and most are incorrect(not just japan) and largelly incomplete.
When Rifts :India will see the light i assume you will get a seizure attack, foamin at your mouth...

Yup. And she mentions this.
She makes no mention of "I tried to go to Japan, but couldn't" or "I wish I could have seen these quiet little islands first-hand."

Nor mention to have beeing there, so there are no things that can prove or disprove anything. But fuel discussion? those notes are great for that!

And when she gets to Stonehenge unintentionally via rift, she instantly recognizes it.
Sure, she might have recognized it by description or photographs, but combined with the fact that her earlier letters mention her being there, it seems pretty clear that she'd been there before.

Hmmm You make as much assumption as we do, the only one who know for sure is Kevin, and the existance of Rifts Japan seem to suggest that you're wrong, at least when come to official canon.

I think that the tracking of the temporal line of Miss(she is a miss, right?) Tarn could help a lot, but If we assume she is a normal human I doubt she could possibly have visited in detailed way all the places in the world. Even considering teleport.
So I think we could exclude a big chunk of the world from the trips(Example she had been in Germany but she had not been in Norway, sweden or Denmark, and i doubt she had been in Italy or Poland. She had not been in China, for sure, and yet you insist she had been in Japan? Why not Corea? Or India? )

[Killer Cyborg]

that brief world overview WAS NEVER intended to be the final word on Rifts Earth status,

Yes and no.
We know that the World Overview is, in Tarn's words, "a summary outline," and that she elaborated "on the places and points which most seem to deserve it" later.
We also know that Kevin originally intended to cover Rifts Earth with a single World Book.
It's a logical assumption that this intended World Book was going to consist at least in part of Tarn's elaborations on the places and points that she thought most deserved coverage.
It is not logical to assume that "a small cluster of quiet wilderness islands" was one of the places that she thought deserved coverage.
It is therefore illogical to assume that there would be any development of Japan in the World Book.
It is therefore illogical to assume, given that Kevin only planned for one world book, that Kevin ever intended to expand on Japan, or to stock it with anything at all.

Moreover, a case might be made for the places that Tarn does NOT cover.
She knows nothing about "Australia or the rest of the world," so I can see some possibility that one of these other places might have been intended to be discussed in the World Book, and therefore was deliberately left blank in Tarn's piece.
But Japan was not left blank.
It was described, in a matter-of-fact fashion, as being specifically small, quiet, and wilderness.

Which, back in 1990, was rather revolutionary and imaginative, as well as logical given the game setting.
Which is, IMO, most likely why Kevin singled out Japan to specifically mention that nothing was going on there- simply because he wanted to be different, and all the competition had cyber-ninjas out their wazoo, and used Nu-Yen as the currency.
By NOT having Japan be a factor, he was doing something interesting.
THAT would explain why there is a specific mention of Japan, instead of simply not mentioning it at all, as he did with many, many other regions.

It sticks in my craw because it's still bad writing and a bad decision.
All I'm fighting is people who a) disagree with my opinion, and b) people who claim that the Rifts Japan book is NOT a change from the original setting.
As to why I'm fighting those things, it's for the same reason why I get into most arguments- people want to argue with me about it.
If people just said, "Well, you might not like the changed setting, but I do!", it would be a short conversation.
Instead, they keep wanting to insist that it's not bad writing, and that it's not a change, when it's demonstrably both.

Ahh so one cannot disagree wiht your opinion?

Sure they can.
And, if they want to argue about it, I'll argue about it.
And here we are.

Any time people don't want to argue about it, the conversation ends.
It's only when people try to tell me that I'm wrong, and to dispute the facts that I post, that things end up in an argument.
As I said, if anybody want's to just say, "I like the change!", I'll grumble a bit, perhaps, and let it go.

Anywya the fact is that...IS FUN to argue with you

Obviously I get some kind of enjoyment out of arguing as well, as frustrating as it can be at times.

There is something in you that make people want to metaphorically punch you in the face (I imagine a face sneering and looking all self entitled and snobbish...I know i'm likely wrong, but I kind of get that feeling, you're like the bad guy form animal house movie ).

lol
Thanks for the feedback.

(though naturally that's not quite how I picture myself. )

As for being bad writing, it is not perfect and lacking the good part of Japanese setting(I would have liked more on TW ninjas than Juicer and Crazy ninja to be honest), but is not that bad, in all and for all, and is kind of fun. The Bionic Dragons model are interesting, the Sohei Monk is something i liked a lot. And Samurai is nice(but i agree that giving all of them RUNE weapons is insane, but i explained in other thread that is due to being painted in corner by MDC concept, once you give up technology - and Nobunaga teaching- you need some way to survive.....Ok i admit they did some mistakes that could hav ebene avoided..not good to sustain my theory )

There IS some good and interesting stuff in the book, I agree.

And she presents the information about Japan as fact.

hmm we don't know, thos eare tidbits of information and most are incorrect(not just japan) and largelly incomplete.

They're incorrect NOW, not when they were originally written.
Just like the speed of Boom Gun rounds was originally correct when printed, but later changed.
Just like the burst/spray rules were originally correct when printed, but later changed.
At least, I have seen no indication to the contrary.

Yup. And she mentions this.
She makes no mention of "I tried to go to Japan, but couldn't" or "I wish I could have seen these quiet little islands first-hand."

Nor mention to have beeing there, so there are no things that can prove or disprove anything.

Not prove 100%, no, I agree on that.

And when she gets to Stonehenge unintentionally via rift, she instantly recognizes it.
Sure, she might have recognized it by description or photographs, but combined with the fact that her earlier letters mention her being there, it seems pretty clear that she'd been there before.

Hmmm You make as much assumption as we do, the only one who know for sure is Kevin, and the existance of Rifts Japan seem to suggest that you're wrong, at least when come to official canon.

That's the thing- canon changes.
What was canon in the RMB is not necessarily canon now, including Tarn's description of Japan, as well as the indications that she had been there (her lack of disclaimers, and the context that she was describing her "journeys").

As for the existence of the Rifts: Japan book, as far as I can tell, the existence of the book is simply due to the fact that Patrick Nowak proposed the idea, got Kevin excited about it, then (in Kevin's words, Japan, p. 3) "worked his heart out" on it.

Which doesn't indicate that Kevin ever originally planned to do anything with the region other than to have it live up to Tarn's original description.

I think that the tracking of the temporal line of Miss(she is a miss, right?) Tarn could help a lot, but If we assume she is a normal human I doubt she could possibly have visited in detailed way all the places in the world. Even considering teleport.
So I think we could exclude a big chunk of the world from the trips(Example she had been in Germany but she had not been in Norway, sweden or Denmark, and i doubt she had been in Italy or Poland. She had not been in China, for sure, and yet you insist she had been in Japan? Why not Corea? Or India? )

1. That's the thing. As I said, canon changes. Tarn's original journeys might not be canon now, whatever they were. We can try to plot a timeline of her travels, which would be interesting, and I think that we should attempt it... but I expect a number of inconsistencies to arise.
2. My basis for believing that she had been to Japan is because she is describing her "journeys," so the general rule would be that unless she specifies otherwise, she's describing places that she has been to. In her description of Japan, there is no specification that she has NOT been there, therefore she most likely has (according to the RMB).
If, for example, I was to say to you, "Let me tell you about my journeys around Europe!", and I continued by describing a bunch of information like:
"The parthenon was beautiful!"
"The English have the best tea."
"The people in Germany are rude."
"Although I never made the trip to Scotland, I understand that some of them still wear kilts."
and
"I hear that the French can be overly-friendly with female travelers."

What would all that tell you, or at least heavily imply?
It would indicate that I had been to Rome, because I have indicated that I have seen the parthenon in person.
It would indicate that I had been to England, because I indicate that I have tried their tea.
It would indicate that I have been to Germany, because I indicate that I have had bad encounters with people in Germany.
It flat-out states that I have never been to Scotland, and the information that I provide has the disclaimer of "I understand" before any information I provide about the area.
It indicates that I have never been to France, although it does not flat-out stat it, because there is the disclaimer of "I hear that..." in front of the information.

While it is possible that I am lying with some of these statements, and/or that I am giving false indications for one reason or another, there is no reason to assume it.

Some of the statements, taken in a vacuum, would not carry the indications that they do.
The claim about English tea, for example, if randomly introduced at a coffee shop in America, might simply mean that I like imported tea from England.
But in the context of "let me tell you about my journeys around Europe," the indication is that I have witnessed the tea firsthand, in it's native environment.

[Armorlord]

KC, you know I'm normally on your side of things, but do you seriously believe she's personally been everywhere on Rifts Earth, including places no one else in North America has been?

RMB-era she had been around all of the 'core' Rifts Earth areas of the time. Coalition turf, Lazlo, the related areas, and a little of the surrounding territories, including Texas some 20 years before.

She visited Northern Mexico, Wormwood, England, Africa, and the NGR, all first time trips for her personally according to her own first-hand accounts, after that.

Slight correction upon double checking the books in question, she had physically been to England before, but had not visited New Camelot, spent time with the Millennium Trees, been to Stonehenge, or really much of anything on the previous visit.


I went to submit this and found you had dropped a giant response. It looks like your main hang-up is that her book, that was not written by her, is titled 'Traversing Our Modern World'? And that in this book, the Lazlo, people that were rummaging through her things published a rough, non-descript summary of far-away places?
Even if you want to claim that she has been to the opposite side of the world personally, if Japan is a specific beef of yours, then there is the same reason everyone else thinks there is nothing but low-tech there: The Republic of Japan only physically appeared a few years ago, and much of the islands are wilderness with a few villages, if her visit was as in-depth as her previous visit to England, that would explain it. The NGR are the first to be made aware of the Republic of Japan via the New Navy around PA 109-110.

[Killer Cyborg]

KC, you know I'm normally on your side of things, but do you seriously believe she's personally been everywhere on Rifts Earth, including places no one else in North America has been?

No, only the places that she describes in her World Overview, and only in cases where she makes no disclaimers or mentions that she has NOT been there.

RMB-era she had been around all of the 'core' Rifts Earth areas of the time. Coalition turf, Lazlo, the related areas, and a little of the surrounding territories, including Texas some 20 years before.

She visited Northern Mexico, Wormwood, England, Africa, and the NGR, all first time trips for her personally according to her own first-hand accounts, after that.

Later books change stuff, sometimes.

I went to submit this and found you had dropped a giant response. It looks like your main hang-up is that her book, that was not written by her, is titled 'Traversing Our Modern World'? And that in this book, the Lazlo, people that were rummaging through her things published a rough, non-descript summary of far-away places?

Uh... no?
I have no problem with the title of the book.
Nor do I have a problem with Lazlo publishing it without her permission.

Even if you want to claim that she has been to the opposite side of the world personally, if Japan is a specific beef of yours, then there is the same reason everyone else thinks there is nothing but low-tech there: The Republic of Japan only physically appeared a few years ago, and much of the islands are wilderness with a few villages, if her visit was as in-depth as her previous visit to England, that would explain it. The NGR are the first to be made aware of the Republic of Japan via the New Navy around PA 109-110.

I've addressed this thoroughly already.
NOT including the Republic of Japan, there is a feudal empire that has thrived since 1 PA, and it has a population of 6.8 million people.
That's kind of hard to miss.
Especially since there are also plagues of monsters, and the locals have techno-wizardry.

[Jedrious]

Long story short, we cannot take everything Erin Tarn says as absolute fact because Kevin does not have a time machine to be able to know EVERY single manuscript that will EVER be submitted to Palladium, or even the ability to look into the future of his own brain to know what inspirations might appear in the future for his own writings.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Long story short, we cannot take everything Erin Tarn says as absolute fact because Kevin does not have a time machine to be able to know EVERY single manuscript that will EVER be submitted to Palladium, or even the ability to look into the future of his own brain to know what inspirations might appear in the future for his own writings.

then he should borrow Doom's time machine then unless Doom sold it at the yard sale last week

[Armorlord]

I have no problem with the title of the book.
Nor do I have a problem with Lazlo publishing it without her permission.

My point is that Ms. Tran herself did not claim to have traversed all those places.

I've addressed this thoroughly already.
NOT including the Republic of Japan, there is a feudal empire that has thrived since 1 PA, and it has a population of 6.8 million people.
That's kind of hard to miss.
Especially since there are also plagues of monsters, and the locals have techno-wizardry.

My point was that most of Japan is still wilderness dotted with villages, hell, it even took time for the Empire and the Republic to become aware of each other, and 'plagues of monsters' is your standard world state. If she paid a brief visit to one island, it could be very easy for her to not hear much about a low-tech 'empire' with a city.

[Killer Cyborg]

Here's a review of her notes, looking for personal information and direct proof or direct indication that she has been to that place.
Indirect indication, such as the context of the World Overview being a chronicle of her "journeys," will be set aside for now, and in cases where there is no direct mention or indication of her being in the area discussed, I will sum up with "no indication."
It is also important to note that I am ONLY talking about the main book here.
Later books may change where she has been, but for the purposes of this post, that does not matter.
For example, as of the RMB, she had not been very far into Mexico.
Later, in Vampire Kingdoms, she goes there.
But in this particular post, since I am focusing only on the main book, I will make a note that she has not been there.
Likewise, later books may state or indicate that she has not been someplace that the RMB states or indicates that she has been.
Again, this is unimportant for this post: the context is the Rifts main book, nothing else.
Not yet, anyway.

1. The Northern Wastelands
"Although I have never traveled that far north..."
She's never been there.

2. Old Canada
"..my heart flutters with joy to see that the Earth has so easily renewed itself.."
She's seen it, presumably with her own eyes.

3. Alberta and Saskatchewan
"I have followed the trails of antiquity Lazlo's books, from forgotten indian mound to medicine wheel, and have found new megaliths and stoneworks erected to mark the location of leys and nexus points."
She's been there.

4. America's West: California, Oregon, Washington
"...to look at it today, even I have difficulty believing that millions of people once thrived here. There is simply no trace of humankind ever having set foot on this land."
She's been there.

5. Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Arizona, and New Mexico
She makes no direct reference to being there, but describes the land as if she has.
She remarks at one point that the ruins are remarkably preserved, followed by a note that she "understands" that as many as one in ten pre-Rifts cities still stand.
The phrasing here indicates that she's been there, to at least some ruins, and seen them firsthand.
Otherwise, the phrasing would be more akin to: "I understand that the ruins are remarkably preserved, and that as many as one in ten pre-Rifts cities still stand."

6. Mexico.
"I have never been more than a few miles beyond the Rio Grande..."
Which means that she HAS been a few miles beyond the Rio Grande.

7. Wyoming
"There is a feeling of magic about the entire place..."
"I had the opportunity to visit the famous medicine wheel secluded up in the Big Horn Mountains..."
"I was amazed to see..."
"Our mystic guide..."
"we could not see any of the familiar..."
"we set our base camp..."
And so on.
She's been there.

8. Montana and Idaho
"I have never been to either, but assume..."
She hasn't been there.

9. The Dakotas, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma
There is no direct confirmation that she has been there, but there is no indication that she has not been there, and/or that she is working off of rumors.
The closest to confirmation that she has been there: "new human settlements seem to be prospering."
Closest to confirmation that she has not: "Cyber-knights are known to roam these lands..."
So, it's a maybe.

10. Minnesota
Oddly enough, there is no indication of whether or not she has been there.
She reports the information, for the most part, as if she knew if for fact.
This may be because she has first-hand knowledge, or it may be because communication between Tolkeen and Lazlo is so complete that it is reliable enough to be considered true unless demonstrated otherwise.

11. The Coalition State of Chi-Town
I'm not going to bother reading whether or not she's been there. She's been close enough to have reliable information.

12. CS State of Missouri
No indication either way.
As with Chi-Town, I would consider her to be close enough for her information to be reliable.

13. Arkansas
Same as previous.

14. CS State of Lone Star
Same as previous.

15. The Magic Zone
No indication either way.

16. The Ohio Valley
"My travels in this land are limited, but I have heard and seen a few things of great importance regarding the region..."
This indicates that yes, she has traveled through the area to a degree.

17. Kentucky and Tennessee
Describing the D-Shifting:
"An unsettling experience no matter how many times one experiences it."
Indicates that she has experienced it, therefore has traveled through the area.

18. The Deep South
No indication either way.

19. Dinosaur Swamp
"A scholar in the region tells me he has identified 32 types described in a pre-rifts text. He has pointed out to two to me that do indeed appear to be the creatures once known as the Stegosaurus and Duckbilled dinosaurs."
She's been there.

20. The East Coast (South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Pennsylvania, City of Washington, and Manhattan are mentioned specifically)
"Having visited these lands, I can attest to the complete and terrifying destruction that must have seemed like the end of the world."
(on Madhaven) "I have known scavengers who claim to have dug hundreds of feet below the debris and found ancient pre-rifts artifacts in salvageable condition."
She's been there.
Not necessarily in every part of every one of those areas, but she's certainly traveled through those regions and spent at least some time exploring them.
She "has known" scavengers who claim to have found treasure in Madhaven, meaning that she's gotten to know them fairly well, which means that she has spend some time in that area. The fact that she makes no mention of being in Madhaven directly, and relies on other people's words, indicates that she probably has not been inside the ruined city itself.

21. Northern Michigan
No indication.

22. Southern Michigan
"Dragons are reportedly common to the wilderness forests that cover the land, but I can not personally substantiate this rumor. I can tell you that like the days of old, the land is a wilderness with little human life other than trappers (wilderness scouts) and tiny settlements along the lakes."
She's been there, seen the forests, but didn't see any dragons.

23. Wisconsin
No indication.

24. Lazlo
She's been there.

25. CS State of Iron Heart
Same as previous CS states.

26. CS State of Free Quebec
"I'd rate Free Quebec's tech level as 25% lower than Chi-Town, perhaps as much as 40%; it is difficult to determine without ever having seen Chi-Town's secret resources. Without a doubt, the Quebec university and library are far inferior, but unlike Chi-Town, education is far more accessible to the average citizen. The propaganda level is also much, much less severe than Chi-Town."
She's been there.

27. Atlantis
"I had made plans to visit the continent on three separate occasions, but each time the Bermuda Triangle was in a fury and my guides felt conditions were too dangerous."
She hasn't been there.

28. England, Wales, and Scotland
"Even I could feel its energies coursing through my body..."
"One city I visited had a 40 foot tall wall of jutting stone erupt from the ground..."
"...the place had an eerie feeling about it. I could not put my finger on it. Perhaps it was just my imagination."
She's been there.

29. France
No indication.

30. Spain
No indication.

31. The Rest of Europe
No indication.

32. India
"It is rumored to be inhabited by..."
Probably hasn't been there.

33. China
"...is reputed to be..."
She hasn't been there.

34. Japan
No indication.

35. Africa
"is again the Dark Continent, mysterious and wild."
May have been there, but hasn't explored it.

36. The land of the Nile and Egypt
No indication.

37. South America
No indication.

37.5 "I have no knowledge of Australia and the rest of the world."
She hasn't been there.

38. Outer Space
"travel in earth orbit is impossible..."
She hasn't been there.

[Killer Cyborg]

I have no problem with the title of the book.
Nor do I have a problem with Lazlo publishing it without her permission.

My point is that Ms. Tran herself did not claim to have traversed all those places.

See my previous post.

I've addressed this thoroughly already.
NOT including the Republic of Japan, there is a feudal empire that has thrived since 1 PA, and it has a population of 6.8 million people.
That's kind of hard to miss.
Especially since there are also plagues of monsters, and the locals have techno-wizardry.

My point was that most of Japan is still wilderness dotted with villages, hell, it even took time for the Empire and the Republic to become aware of each other, and 'plagues of monsters' is your standard world state. If she paid a brief visit to one island, it could be very easy for her to not hear much about a low-tech 'empire' with a city.

Yes, and my point is that if Erin Tarn shows up in a village that is part of a massive feudal nation, it's not going to be hard for her to find the rest of it.
And "plagues of monters" is not your standard world stats.
Which is why Tarn makes note of high monster populations in various areas during her World Overview.
For that matter, she makes note of villages.

If she paid a brief visit to one island, I see no reason why Japan would not have joined the numerous other regions where she notes that she has not traveled or explored very much.

[Killer Cyborg]

Long story short, we cannot take everything Erin Tarn says as absolute fact because Kevin does not have a time machine to be able to know EVERY single manuscript that will EVER be submitted to Palladium, or even the ability to look into the future of his own brain to know what inspirations might appear in the future for his own writings.

Kind of.
The problem is retconning.
Just because Tarn is later demonstrated to be wrong about what she says does not mean that she was not correct when she originally said it.

For example, say in the RMB, she had a passage that described a region called "Cybortopia."
According to her, it is ruled by an evil, killer cyborg, who has an army of robot cats equipped with particle beams, and these robots roam the land killing everything they see.

Then say that years later, Palladium publishes World Book 1,229,539: Cyborgtopia, and in THIS book, the land as described as being ruled by a benign, peaceful council of cyborg pacifists (who have ruled for 100 years), who have an army of robot kittens that roam the helping rescue firemen from trees.

Does this later book mean that Tarn was originally incorrect?
No. At the time the RMB was written, she may very well have been saying exactly what Kevin imagined that region to be like.
She may have been relating canon information.

Does that mean that the later book is wrong?
No.
At the time it is written, it can be safely assumed that the contents are now what Kevin imagines that region to be like.

Both of these descriptions conflict, but as with any conflicting canon information, the newer information replaces the old.
Erin Tarn was not wrong to begin with- she was describing exactly what was there.
Later, when a new book was written, the game world is retroactively changed to be something else.
Tarn is still not wrong- her description from the RMB is no longer canon.
As far as the setting goes, it does not exist.

The only way for Erin Tarn to be wrong about something is in cases where she is written to be wrong, such as in Canada where she is mentioned to have made errors.
But before the Canada book, her statements most likely were not errors- they were most likely presenting canon information, describing the world as Kevin saw it.
The only way that Erin Tarn could actually have originally been mistaken about the claims she made about Canada would be if Kevin, while he was writing that passage of the book, intended for her to be mistaken.
Which is something that is pretty difficult to fully prove.

[Armorlord]

I would only disagree with 19, and by her England accounts, she visited very little in the British Isles previously.

You shouldn't take a few in universe summary paragraphs that were not finished or approved of by Ms. Tarn as the holy word of everything on Rifts Earth out-of-characterly for all time. it is not a reasonable position to take to claim that she knew everything there is to know about the world and in-characterly wrote all of it down to be found after she was thought dead, and that nearly everything since RMB is a 'retcon' because of her infallibility, and that her own statements of being mistaken or not having been places are world altering retcons because she couldn't possibly been in-characterly receiving wrong information from within a post-apocalyptic wasteland plagued with monsters and people from other dimensions.

[Giant2005]

For example, say in the RMB, she had a passage that described a region called "Cybortopia."
According to her, it is ruled by an evil, killer cyborg, who has an army of robot cats equipped with particle beams, and these robots roam the land killing everything they see.

Then say that years later, Palladium publishes World Book 1,229,539: Cyborgtopia, and in THIS book, the land as described as being ruled by a benign, peaceful council of cyborg pacifists (who have ruled for 100 years), who have an army of robot kittens that roam the helping rescue firemen from trees.

Does this later book mean that Tarn was originally incorrect?
No. At the time the RMB was written, she may very well have been saying exactly what Kevin imagined that region to be like.
She may have been relating canon information.

Does that mean that the later book is wrong?
No.
At the time it is written, it can be safely assumed that the contents are now what Kevin imagines that region to be like.

Both of these descriptions conflict, but as with any conflicting canon information, the newer information replaces the old.
Erin Tarn was not wrong to begin with- she was describing exactly what was there.
Later, when a new book was written, the game world is retroactively changed to be something else.
Tarn is still not wrong- her description from the RMB is no longer canon.
As far as the setting goes, it does not exist.

The only way for Erin Tarn to be wrong about something is in cases where she is written to be wrong, such as in Canada where she is mentioned to have made errors.
But before the Canada book, her statements most likely were not errors- they were most likely presenting canon information, describing the world as Kevin saw it.
The only way that Erin Tarn could actually have originally been mistaken about the claims she made about Canada would be if Kevin, while he was writing that passage of the book, intended for her to be mistaken.
Which is something that is pretty difficult to fully prove.

Which would be more accurate to say?
1) The world used to be flat, we didn't discover otherwise - the world just changed to suit our new reality.
2) The world was never flat, we just mistakenly believed so.

[Killer Cyborg]

The only way for Erin Tarn to be wrong about something is in cases where she is written to be wrong, such as in Canada where she is mentioned to have made errors.
But before the Canada book, her statements most likely were not errors- they were most likely presenting canon information, describing the world as Kevin saw it.
The only way that Erin Tarn could actually have originally been mistaken about the claims she made about Canada would be if Kevin, while he was writing that passage of the book, intended for her to be mistaken.
Which is something that is pretty difficult to fully prove.

Which would be more accurate to say?
1) The world used to be flat, we didn't discover otherwise - the world just changed to suit our new reality.
2) The world was never flat, we just mistakenly believed so.

As far as I know, we're not characters in a book, so that's kind of pointless to ask.
Unless you believe that reality can be retconned?
Of course, if it can be, it already has been, and this is the result.
So it kind of nets out the same either way.

[Giant2005]

The only way for Erin Tarn to be wrong about something is in cases where she is written to be wrong, such as in Canada where she is mentioned to have made errors.
But before the Canada book, her statements most likely were not errors- they were most likely presenting canon information, describing the world as Kevin saw it.
The only way that Erin Tarn could actually have originally been mistaken about the claims she made about Canada would be if Kevin, while he was writing that passage of the book, intended for her to be mistaken.
Which is something that is pretty difficult to fully prove.

Which would be more accurate to say?
1) The world used to be flat, we didn't discover otherwise - the world just changed to suit our new reality.
2) The world was never flat, we just mistakenly believed so.

As far as I know, we're not characters in a book, so that's kind of pointless to ask.
Unless you believe that reality can be retconned?
Of course, if it can be, it already has been, and this is the result.
So it kind of nets out the same either way.

The point is that nothing can be retconned if it is not a fact.
We are given Erin Tarn's words not those of fact - her words are skewed by her own opinion, personality, bias and perception. Until she gains the power of omnipresence, nothing she says can be considered canon. The things she says are her canon interpretations, not canon reality.
The information provided to us that isn't tainted by perception is canon.
Trying to argue that her words are more valid than those of the reality of the setting we have been given is nonsensical. Even trying to argue that her words are equally as valid as thoaw of the setting we have been given is nonsensical.
Let me put it another way: If Erin Tarn told us the world was flat and World Book 2 contradicted that by telling us it wasn't, would that be a retcon?

[Killer Cyborg]

I would only disagree with 19,

Huh. Why's that?

You shouldn't take a few in universe summary paragraphs that were not finished or approved of by Ms. Tarn as the holy word of everything on Rifts Earth out-of-characterly for all time.

I don't.
1. They were finished paragraphs, and the piece printed in the RMB is a complete work.
We are directly told that the World Overview was written by Tarn, and turned over to the Council of Learning.
When somebody hires you for a research project, and you turn that project in, and you get paid, it is approved by you, and it is finished.
It is the final draft.
It is the draft that you turned in, and got paid for.
The person you turn your final work in to might then publish it without your consent, but that does not retroactively make what you turned in anything less than a finished product that you approved of.
Otherwise you wouldn't have turned it in.
2. Ms. Tarn is simply the mouthpiece for Kevin Siembieda, not the "word of everything on Rifts Earth for all time."
Whenever Kevin changes the facts in new book, the facts of the game world change.
Tarn said that Japan was a cluster of quiet wilderness islands, and it was- because Kevin was telling us this as straight fact, even if he was typing in her "character."
When Kevin approved and published the Rifts: Japan book, Tarn's earlier words no longer mattered as far as current canon- they were replaced by the new facts.
This does not mean that she was wrong, though, only that her words on the subject in the RMB are no longer canon.

it is not a reasonable position to take to claim that she knew everything there is to know about the world and in-characterly wrote all of it down to be found after she was thought dead, and that nearly everything since RMB is a 'retcon' because of her infallibility, and that her own statements of being mistaken or not having been places are world altering retcons because she couldn't possibly been in-characterly receiving wrong information from within a post-apocalyptic wasteland plagued with monsters and people from other dimensions.

That's not the position that I've taken, so I don't quite know why you're ranting about it.
a) Tarn obviously does not know everything. She regularly admits when she is working off of rumors and heresay, and she freely states "I know nothing of Australia and the rest of the world."
She very clearly is not omniscient.
b) She could possibly have been in-characterly receiving wrong information, which is why the sections where she refers to rumors and other secondary sources of information are suspect.
This does not mean, though, that the parts that she states as fact are in question.

[Colt47]

I think Erin Tarn has visited so many places that one of my PCs at some point is going to be sleeping at an Inn in some remote part of the country and find a note with some bits of Erin Tarns thoughts on them. This would then be followed by a Coalition special forces unit breaking into the room from several directions, beating my poor PC to a bloody pulp, and then asking where Tarn is in true Venture Bro's fashion.

[Killer Cyborg]

The point is that nothing can be retconned if it is not a fact.

Actually, you an retcon opinion as well.
Kevin could suddenly, for example, decide that Tarn loves the CS, and always has, and that her opinion of them is that they're really cool.

We are given Erin Tarn's words not those of fact - her words are skewed by her own opinion, personality, bias and perception.

She has no opinion.
She has no personality.
She has no bias.
She has no perception.
She is not real.
She is simply the mouthpiece that Kevin used to present canon information in a colorful manner.

The information provided to us that isn't tainted by perception is canon.

All information is tainted by perception.

Trying to argue that her words are more valid than those of the reality of the setting we have been given is nonsensical.

Agreed.

Even trying to argue that her words are equally as valid as those of the setting we have been given is nonsensical.

Agreed.
But her words ARE still a canon description of the setting.
They simply carry less weight than straight narration/description by Kevin.

Let me put it another way: If Erin Tarn told us the world was flat and World Book 2 contradicted that by telling us it wasn't, would that be a retcon?

Yes.

[Giant2005]

Trying to argue that her words are more valid than those of the reality of the setting we have been given is nonsensical.

Agreed.

Even trying to argue that her words are equally as valid as those of the setting we have been given is nonsensical.

Agreed.
But her words ARE still a canon description of the setting.
They simply carry less weight than straight narration/description by Kevin.

If her words carry less weight than the narration, wouldn't the more valuable and contradicting narration overrule what she has said?
I think the difference in the weight carried by those sources is the difference between changing reality and correcting the perceived reality.
I have one final question: What would your opinion be if the Japan World Book came out before Tarn's RMB statement about Japan?

[tmikesecrist3]

Miss Erin Tarn is a free thinker. and something of a historyion she is also the first person to try and use the "modern" systematic aproce to cataloging the world and the people in it. That means she is the first one to do that. and well she has access to books on how such things are done. She still has to invent many of the tools to do so. also where as most anthropologist will pick one group and study them for years. so she can really only record first impressions and cant really get to know the subject matter. which means when people fallow up on her work they will find that many of her conclusions where wrong or incomplete. that does not make her work worthless how ever she is the first and people will be able to start form her base and build on it. in a generation or two the people whom pick up her torch will spend years specializing in one location and or group of people and they will cerect the errors couched by incomplete or even bad data. she is the first as such she is the mother of a reawakened branch of science and study. she is paving the way by showing there is more out there that is worth coming to know. think of her like the explorers in the age of discovery. infact you could say shes starting or at least paveing the way for a new age of discovery

[Killer Cyborg]

If her words carry less weight than the narration, wouldn't the more valuable and contradicting narration overrule what she has said?

Yes.
Which is one reason why when the Japan book came out, I complained "that stuff shouldn't be there!" instead of "that stuff isn't there!"

The thing is, there is cause and effect in the game world.

For example.
Say Tarn went to a small, easily explored island, something the size of an oil platform, and she reported back that nothing was there.
Then, later, Palladium publishes World Book 500,000: Small, Easily Explored Island the Size of an Oil Platform, and in this book, it describes a giant, glowing, 750' tall statue of Mickey Mouse as being a prominent feature, and that the statue has been there since the start of the apocalypse.
This new information contradicts the old information (barring some kind of measure to integrate the two pieces, such as the statue being able to turn invisible and intangible for significant durations).
When this kind of conflict occurs, the new information replaces the old information.

So now, one of several things that previously happened has instead not happened.
Either Tarn did NOT go to that island at all, and the passage can be ignored.
Or Tarn went to that island, in which case she would have seen the statue.
In which case she would have remarked about it.
In which case, the original passage can be ignored.

And it doesn't matter in this case whether Tarn's encounter (or lack therof) on the island was described in canon via first-person narration from Tarn's perspective, or via 3rd person narration via Kevin's perspective.
Either way, it nets out the same.
The previous description of the encounter is no longer valid, as the facts of the situation have been retroactively changed, and a new result would have occurred from Tarn's exploration of that island.

I think the difference in the weight carried by those sources is the difference between changing reality and correcting the perceived reality.

Care to elaborate?

I have one final question: What would your opinion be if the Japan World Book came out before Tarn's RMB statement about Japan?

You mean if, for example, the RMB never mentioned Japan, leaving it lumped in with "Australia and the rest of the world," then the Rifts: Japan book came out, THEN Tarn described Japan using the same description as we have in the actual RMB?

Good question.

In that case, I'd have some major questions along the lines of "how the hell could Tarn have missed all the stuff in Japan?" and/or "What the hell happened to Japan to turn it into a region quiet wilderness?"
And I'd wait to see if there was any further elaboration on the subject.
IF it really bugged me, I'd ask Kevin about it via mail, PM, or in person at an open house or convention.

[Giant2005]

I think the difference in the weight carried by those sources is the difference between changing reality and correcting the perceived reality.

Care to elaborate?

What I mean is:
Tarn said Japan was a quiet little wilderness place. This can mean one of several different things:
1) Japan is a quiet little wilderness place.
2) Tarn went to Japan, saw a little shrubbery and thought "screw this, these old bones have had enough sleeping in the wild, it is time to go home back to civilization".
3) Tarn never went anywhere near Japan, she just thought she would show off to her friends and pretend she has.
4) Tarn failed her literacy roll: she forgot to mention that she was basing her decision off rumors and hasn't been anywhere near Japan.
5) She did mention she hasn't been to Japan and her opinion was based on rumors but the editor changed things for irrelevant reasons.
6,7,8,9,10) Insert whatever stupid reasoning you like, the reasons themselves aren't important.

Niow the Japan World Book is a lot more clear. It directly contradicts possible meaning number one but it is a more reliable source.
Because it is a more reliable source, it hasn't changed the reality from number one to what is described in Japan, it has simply corrected the perception of reality from number one to what is described in Japan.
It is a more reliable source - it hasn't changed reality from number one, it has simply clarified that option one is no longer an option. It has proved that one of the other options is the correct one.

The things the book described in the settings are what we know, anything Tarn has to say is what we are told. There is a very significant difference.

And please, don't quote those stupid little statements I made about why Tarn could have been wrong and refute them - they are irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that there are a million different reasons Tarn's statement could be an error but there aren't any reasons why the entire Japan World Book could be made in error.

[Shark_Force]

And please, don't quote those stupid little statements I made about why Tarn could have been wrong and refute them - they are irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that there are a million different reasons Tarn's statement could be an error but there aren't any reasons why the entire Japan World Book could be made in error.

so... supposing i was to get into a time machine and go back to a time before rifts Japan was published. and i was to ask you what, canonically speaking, was in Japan.

would you have referred me to what Erin Tarn had said, provided you remembered it was there?

or would you have said "oh, there's no canon information about that", again assuming that you remember that little blurb about Japan?

frankly, i suspect that you would have used what Erin Tarn had said about Japan as canon. i further suspect that is exactly what Kevin intended for people to do when he wrote it, is to interpret that as canon (though of course, as with all canon, individuals are welcome and even encouraged to change it if they prefer).

now, obviously asking now, today, you're going to answer differently than you would have back then. why? because the canon for what is in Japan has changed. certainly, the answer to the question of what is canon right now for Japan is the Japan book. but, when it was just the RMB around, the canon on Japan is what is written in the RMB, by Kevin, through the NPC Erin Tarn. that *was* the canon. it is not the canon now. that is exactly what "ret-con" means. what was formerly true is no longer true.

you can certainly argue that the old RMB information is not canon now. and, as KC has stated repeatedly, he won't disagree with you. what he is saying, and what everyone is taking exception to, is that it is a change from what was previously canon. and he's right. it *is* a change from what was previously canon. whether you prefer it or not is beside the point. whether it is canon right now is beside the point. the point he is making is simply that back in the day, that was not canon, and that when Japan came out he was upset because the canon had been changed and he preferred the older version.

could Erin Tarn have been wrong? only if Kevin intended her to be so. but there is no indication that Kevin wanted her to be so, and every indication that what was written in the RMB was intended to be our window into the world of rifts earth. and we are given no reason to assume it is anything less than a fairly accurate portrayal of rifts earth, or at least the parts that it covers and which Erin Tarn indicates to be stuff she knows for herself.

has that changed? yes. it has. and that is exactly the point. it HAS changed. it HAS been ret-conned. that's exactly KC's point. and if you'd stop screaming "Nuh-uh" at the top of your lungs for a while and actually read what he's writing, you'd see that he's made that statement repeatedly, very clearly, with support from the books.

[Colt47]

Didn't they retcon Japan in the RUE? I know technically Japan came out before the RUE, but it seems like they updated the lore.