Keeping MD/MDC rare in Rifts campaigns

[Dr. Doom III]

Please don't start with the real science in my futuristic science fiction fantasy world.

Besides the book never states that it has to be one bullet just one "attack" without defining what that "attack" must be. It doesn't say a single shot, or one bullet or anything like that so by the wording that would mean ANY "attack" that does more than 100sd does 1 point of md. At least that is my interpretation. You have a different one so that puts the two sides at a stand still.

So stop trying to say your way is the right way since, which is typically standard procedure with Palladium rules, there is no "right" way. The "right" way is whatever way you interpret it.

That's not real science. That's how SDC weapons can do MDC by the book.

[jaymz]

Please don't start with the real science in my futuristic science fiction fantasy world.

Besides the book never states that it has to be one bullet just one "attack" without defining what that "attack" must be. It doesn't say a single shot, or one bullet or anything like that so by the wording that would mean ANY "attack" that does more than 100sd does 1 point of md. At least that is my interpretation. You have a different one so that puts the two sides at a stand still.

So stop trying to say your way is the right way since, which is typically standard procedure with Palladium rules, there is no "right" way. The "right" way is whatever way you interpret it.

That's not real science. That's how SDC weapons can do MDC by the book.

The book only ever says "in one attack" not in one single bullet or blast. You interpret "one attack" your way and we'll interpret it ours and guess what? They are both right unless you can show me a direct quote from a book that specifically states "one bullet" not "one attack".

So next time please, instead of saying "nuh-uh that's wrong", how about you couch your statements as "this is how I do it" unless you have proof (ie a page number in a book) to back you up.

[Nightmask]

Actually, another curiosity about MD energy weapons in Rifts is why they don't all have an SDC setting. It seems like it would be a no brainer considering that not everyone and everything requires an mega-damage answer. Also, it really shouldn't be that difficult to add a lower powered setting to an energy powered gun of all things.


Edit: Obviously, this makes more sense for the laser and ion rifles than the weapons designed specifically for taking on heavy duty threats, like plasma ejectors and particle beam cannons, but still...

One would think they don't all or nearly all have SDC settings because you can't include an SDC setting along with an MD setting. The structural design simply can't be dialed down to the SDC level, and what few can do it likely require special engineering that for the other weapons even if it's possible would be too costly to include. So the laser weapon's equipment has a minimum energy threshold for an MD version that makes 'well if I put in less energy it must come out SDC right?' fail as a correct answer. So you either have some SDC weapons that can be 'overclocked' to do barely a single MD or you can have MD weapons that can't be under-clocked for SDC damage.

[Colt47]

Actually, another curiosity about MD energy weapons in Rifts is why they don't all have an SDC setting. It seems like it would be a no brainer considering that not everyone and everything requires an mega-damage answer. Also, it really shouldn't be that difficult to add a lower powered setting to an energy powered gun of all things.


Edit: Obviously, this makes more sense for the laser and ion rifles than the weapons designed specifically for taking on heavy duty threats, like plasma ejectors and particle beam cannons, but still...

One would think they don't all or nearly all have SDC settings because you can't include an SDC setting along with an MD setting. The structural design simply can't be dialed down to the SDC level, and what few can do it likely require special engineering that for the other weapons even if it's possible would be too costly to include. So the laser weapon's equipment has a minimum energy threshold for an MD version that makes 'well if I put in less energy it must come out SDC right?' fail as a correct answer. So you either have some SDC weapons that can be 'overclocked' to do barely a single MD or you can have MD weapons that can't be under-clocked for SDC damage.

Are you talking about the plasma and particle beam weapons? Those fit your description perfectly. Otherwise lasers and ion weapons actually can have it done, they just have to be given the proper settings. The only reason they don't have SDC settings from what I've reasoned is that:

1) everyone has been fighting demons and monsters with high tech weapons for centuries and never really thought about adding an SDC setting since it would be useless.

2) There are plenty of hard ammo SDC weapons already and in most cases bullets cost less than even a low powered energy blast.

On a side note, I'm kind of surprised you think that lasers can't be adjusted for lower output. Lasers are one technology that we actually have around today and even in game they have a laser tool with variable settings and a laser rifle...

(looks at the Wilks Long Rifle from the New West)

NOT THAT RIFLE!

[Nightmask]

Actually, another curiosity about MD energy weapons in Rifts is why they don't all have an SDC setting. It seems like it would be a no brainer considering that not everyone and everything requires an mega-damage answer. Also, it really shouldn't be that difficult to add a lower powered setting to an energy powered gun of all things.


Edit: Obviously, this makes more sense for the laser and ion rifles than the weapons designed specifically for taking on heavy duty threats, like plasma ejectors and particle beam cannons, but still...

One would think they don't all or nearly all have SDC settings because you can't include an SDC setting along with an MD setting. The structural design simply can't be dialed down to the SDC level, and what few can do it likely require special engineering that for the other weapons even if it's possible would be too costly to include. So the laser weapon's equipment has a minimum energy threshold for an MD version that makes 'well if I put in less energy it must come out SDC right?' fail as a correct answer. So you either have some SDC weapons that can be 'overclocked' to do barely a single MD or you can have MD weapons that can't be under-clocked for SDC damage.

Are you talking about the plasma and particle beam weapons? Those fit your description perfectly. Otherwise lasers and ion weapons actually can have it done, they just have to be given the proper settings. The only reason they don't have SDC settings from what I've reasoned is that:

1) everyone has been fighting demons and monsters with high tech weapons for centuries and never really thought about adding an SDC setting since it would be useless.

2) There are plenty of hard ammo SDC weapons already and in most cases bullets cost less than even a low powered energy blast.

On a side note, I'm kind of surprised you think that lasers can't be adjusted for lower output. Lasers are one technology that we actually have around today and even in game they have a laser tool with variable settings and a laser rifle...

(looks at the Wilks Long Rifle from the New West)

NOT THAT RIFLE!

Everything has a minimum energy threshold, even kinetic energy weapons (not enough powder and the round doesn't even come out). I also didn't say I thought lasers couldn't be adjusted for lower output, I simply suggested why you don't generally see them having an SDC setting, because the MDC-intended versions can't be tuned down that low. For which I did mention the variable tools when I mentioned SDC laser items that if you really crank them up can barely do Mega-Damage. Weapons built to be routinely dealing with mega-damage levels of energy release are scaled for that, so it makes sense that you couldn't simply put in less energy and get only SDC damage out, the design doesn't support it (just like you can't flip to 'laser pointer' and use it as a harmless laser pointer).

It's always a possibility one can try and put in more energy and get more damage out (at the risk of burning the item out) but it doesn't necessarily work the other way around, put in less energy and get less damage out. So you can possibly pump more energy into an SDC laser or other energy weapon and maybe it can handle causing some Mega-damage at risk of burn-out, but the mega-damage weapon has to be built for that scale of damage as a routine so can't handle the other direction. While there are a few weapons around that can do that it's what they're built for, the designer took the time to work out the design so it could accommodate both SDC and MDC settings comfortably.

[Colt47]

Actually, another curiosity about MD energy weapons in Rifts is why they don't all have an SDC setting. It seems like it would be a no brainer considering that not everyone and everything requires an mega-damage answer. Also, it really shouldn't be that difficult to add a lower powered setting to an energy powered gun of all things.


Edit: Obviously, this makes more sense for the laser and ion rifles than the weapons designed specifically for taking on heavy duty threats, like plasma ejectors and particle beam cannons, but still...

One would think they don't all or nearly all have SDC settings because you can't include an SDC setting along with an MD setting. The structural design simply can't be dialed down to the SDC level, and what few can do it likely require special engineering that for the other weapons even if it's possible would be too costly to include. So the laser weapon's equipment has a minimum energy threshold for an MD version that makes 'well if I put in less energy it must come out SDC right?' fail as a correct answer. So you either have some SDC weapons that can be 'overclocked' to do barely a single MD or you can have MD weapons that can't be under-clocked for SDC damage.

Are you talking about the plasma and particle beam weapons? Those fit your description perfectly. Otherwise lasers and ion weapons actually can have it done, they just have to be given the proper settings. The only reason they don't have SDC settings from what I've reasoned is that:

1) everyone has been fighting demons and monsters with high tech weapons for centuries and never really thought about adding an SDC setting since it would be useless.

2) There are plenty of hard ammo SDC weapons already and in most cases bullets cost less than even a low powered energy blast.

On a side note, I'm kind of surprised you think that lasers can't be adjusted for lower output. Lasers are one technology that we actually have around today and even in game they have a laser tool with variable settings and a laser rifle...

(looks at the Wilks Long Rifle from the New West)

NOT THAT RIFLE!

Everything has a minimum energy threshold, even kinetic energy weapons (not enough powder and the round doesn't even come out). I also didn't say I thought lasers couldn't be adjusted for lower output, I simply suggested why you don't generally see them having an SDC setting, because the MDC-intended versions can't be tuned down that low. For which I did mention the variable tools when I mentioned SDC laser items that if you really crank them up can barely do Mega-Damage. Weapons built to be routinely dealing with mega-damage levels of energy release are scaled for that, so it makes sense that you couldn't simply put in less energy and get only SDC damage out, the design doesn't support it (just like you can't flip to 'laser pointer' and use it as a harmless laser pointer).

It's always a possibility one can try and put in more energy and get more damage out (at the risk of burning the item out) but it doesn't necessarily work the other way around, put in less energy and get less damage out. So you can possibly pump more energy into an SDC laser or other energy weapon and maybe it can handle causing some Mega-damage at risk of burn-out, but the mega-damage weapon has to be built for that scale of damage as a routine so can't handle the other direction. While there are a few weapons around that can do that it's what they're built for, the designer took the time to work out the design so it could accommodate both SDC and MDC settings comfortably.

I think you took what I was saying rather too literally. You basically just said that weapons can be adjusted to allow for an SDC setting if they are designed for it. What I'm saying is that just about any of the tech nations making laser weapons, even Northern Gun, could offer an SDC setting on their laser weapons. They have access to the technology to do so and it wouldn't be very difficult, which is why it seems odd that they don't bother. I'm figuring the reasons why revolve around energy weapons mostly being used against supernatural / MDC opponents for the last couple of centuries and that projectile weapons are probably still more cost effective as an SDC solution.

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually that was mentioned in the RMB, and it said that bursts would not do MD. I'm not sure if RUE changed this.

(and no I can't quote page number because my books are in a different state)

Let me know if you can find that passage.
It doesn't really matter for this exercise, since I'm using explosive bullets, and they are (as per the passage I quoted) able to inflict damage to MD structures.

And in RUE, the limit to explosives is specifically removed anyway.

Also, check out the machinegun on the Highwayman Motorcycle (Rifts 227):
1d4 MD per burst of 50 rounds.
Unless each round inflicts 1 MD, and only 1-4 rounds out of 50 rounds ever hits the target, that kind of demonstrates that there are cases where a mass of SDC rounds can inflict MD.

[Shark_Force]

well, the combat example in the section explaining SDC vs MDC heavily implies it (although the math is a little screwy, with 30 SMGs only hitting for about 300 SDC... i guess that maybe works if the 30 bandits with SMGs were only firing single bullets). there's also:

"Typically, only a mega-damage weapon can harm a
M.D.C. structure. S.D.C. missiles and explosives that can inflict over 100 S.D.C. points of damage do inflict the equivalent of mega-damage."

the explosives cover your situation, KC, although i don't personally think that was how it was intended (i suspect it was referring to large, individual blasts, though i can't say i have any actual *proof* of that). but it wouldn't cover a regular burst, since there is no exception made there.

then again, technically no exception is made for regular SDC attacks that deal more than 100 damage in a single shot either, such as simply dropping an extremely large, heavy object from a significant height.

in any event, while this is not specific to bursts, it does indicate that a regular burst would not be sufficient, even if over 100 normal damage was inflicted by the burst. (of course, you are correct that the machinegun presented later disregards that, but then... is anyone *really* surprised by palladium breaking their own rules by now?)

edit: forgot to give a proper reference for that little passage: it's on page 11, as is the example of 30 automatic weapons being used on MDC armor and having no effect.

[Killer Cyborg]

well, the combat example in the section explaining SDC vs MDC heavily implies it (although the math is a little screwy, with 30 SMGs only hitting for about 300 SDC... i guess that maybe works if the 30 bandits with SMGs were only firing single bullets).

Let's look at it.

30 rebel bandits with SDC weapons, "mostly M-16 assault rifles and sub-machineguns."
"The two soldiers in dead boy armor are caught in a hail of bullets. Perhaps as many as 50 rounds hit for a combined amount of SDC damage of about 300..."

You have 30 people shooting, and 50 rounds hitting. So at least some of them are firing bursts.
But it doesn't mean that anybody is firing full auto.
With 15 of the people firing 3-round bursts, that's 30 shots hitting right there.
The others might be using anything from pistols to shotguns, but it doesn't matter because they're using single-shots, and have zero chance at inflicting 100+ SDC per shot (which, I think, is the point of the section).

The most powerful SMG in the main book is a Mac-10, which does 4d6 SDC per round, which is the same damage as an M-16.
So let's just assume that's what the "most" have.
A single shot only does 24 SDC maximum.
A short burst only does 48 SDC maximum.
A long burst does up to 120 SDC, but we don't know if anybody is firing a long burst. Also, that's the maximum. The average damage would be 70 SDC or so (check my math- I'm still sleepy). So it's perfectly possible that of the people who had M-16s or SMGs, if any fired long bursts, they still didn't inflict 100+ SDC.
Firing an entire magazine uses 2 attacks, and therefore could be debated to count as more than one attack. The rules are unclear about that (as they are about many things). In any case, since all the firing in the scenario is done after a single attack round, it's pretty clear that none of the bandits were doing this.

"Typically, only a mega-damage weapon can harm a
M.D.C. structure. S.D.C. missiles and explosives that can inflict over 100 S.D.C. points of damage do inflict the equivalent of mega-damage."

the explosives cover your situation, KC, although i don't personally think that was how it was intended (i suspect it was referring to large, individual blasts, though i can't say i have any actual *proof* of that). but it wouldn't cover a regular burst, since there is no exception made there.

I don't think that it mattered whether an attack was a burst or not originally.
Explosives are stated to be an exception, and the rule is that it doesn't matter if an attack inflicts more than 100 SDC- it still can't hurt MDC if it's an SDC attack.

then again, technically no exception is made for regular SDC attacks that deal more than 100 damage in a single shot either, such as simply dropping an extremely large, heavy object from a significant height.

Right.

[popscythe]

I don't see the problem. If you want to "keep MD/MDC rare" do it, it's your game. If not, don't.

[random_username]

Cities with fully enforced MD weaponry bans. Then have the entire campaign be contained within that city, probably limited to being espionage, skills, SDC combat, etc focused adventures.