Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

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Giant2005
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Giant2005 »

Killer Cyborg wrote:Because Tarn isn't really the author- Siembieda is.
And I have yet to hear a good explanation for why Siembieda would, after taking the time and trouble to mention all the times that Tarn is working off of any kind of questionable information, try to add in yet another layer of "but this might not be true!" for a game series that he only expected to write two more books for, one of them being a conversion book.

The simplest explanation is still that Kevin originally intended for Japan to be unpopulated, and later changed his mind.
Nobody has ever, in any way, come up with anything that makes this an unlikely theory.

You can't believe that the same guy who plasters all over the place the fact that the world is the GM's and rules should not be more important than that, would deliberately leave a layer of ambiguity to the overview to ensure the GMs know that the world may not be exactly as described and can then ensure it doesn't negatively alter their game?
I tend to think that is exactly why he used Tarn to describe the world, I also think it is why he emphasized the fact that she doesn't know everything.
Maybe I just give Kevin too much credit but the optimist in me hopes that I give him exactly as much credit as he deserves.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by SAMASzero »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
SAMASzero wrote:
Or perhaps that wasn't something she wrote. Our Changing World, the version of ToMW that Erin did write with the intent of publishing, both says that Erin has never been to Japan (but she has been to Russia), but recounts rumors (specifically said to be so) that line up with The New Empire, Republic of Japan, and the Zone.


There is only one version of the World Overview


Not anymore, there isn't. The one in the Original Rule book was from Traversing our Modern World. The Ultimate Edition has an all-new one, from her followup Our Changed World. Written post-Tolkieen.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by CaptKaruthors »

Seriously, what does it matter? 12 pages of pointless tripe. If you want to get technical, ToMW was written before the cities in Japan returned...which could very well mean that Erin Tarn in fact did see nothing but wilderness. Now, while you may feel that it's a ham-fisted way of forming a background story for Japan...it is what it is. WB 8 is out and it has been in the can for years. The biggest thing for you KC, is that you feel it's forced..or that KS had different intentions originally. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. The bottom line is that KS and Palladium is in the business to entertain RPGers, sell books, and make money so Palladium prospers. While they would like every book to appeal to everybody..unfortunately you can't please everybody as much as KS would like to do. He understands that. I'm sure there are plenty of things that KS would like to tweak, change, etc. For me, there are a ton of things in the Rifts universe that I don't like..or that I think is silly/ stupid (Dragon and Mega Juicers are some of the dumbest ideas ever), but at the end of the day, I always take the advice KS gave to me and my gaming crew back in 1994...and that is "gaming is a very personal thing". Make the megaverse your own. You aren't locked into what has or hasn't been written in any of the books. To say that you know what KS intentions with Japan was is ridiculous. You don't know anymore about it than we do..and everything you've presented (and everyone else for that matter) is all speculation on your part. Unless you point blank ask KS about what his original ideas for Japan was...everything you've brought up is baseless. Just enjoy the game how you want to enjoy it...and everyone else will do the same.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by ZorValachan »

SAMASzero wrote: This is what is known in the business as a Retcon. Rettroactive Continuity. Something previously said is no longer true (for reasons good or bad). Therefore, Japan was never wiped out (and possibly, Erin Tarn never said that it was).


This is amusing, because here you are clearly stating that KC is right and you are wrong.

KS thought about Japan one way (some small wilderness islands) in RMB and changed his mind on it when the Rifts: Japan World Book concept was pitched to him. All the words written after RMB to 'retcon' this means nothing. It is a newer way to make the change in world view make sense. It does not make it so that there was no change in Kevin's head. That has been KC's point all along. When KS wrote RMB, he had Japan as being a destroyed little wilderness island cluster. Some guy came later and made a pitch to him about cyber-ninjas and KS thought "Wow this is cool" and gave the ok. It just means he changed his mind. But he DID change his mind. Some people like the change, others do not. Everyone quoting Erin Tarn sources in books that are not the RMB (because the RMB was written first) are not showing any legitimate arguments against Kevin changing his mind. In fact, the changes that were made in RUE, weigh heavy in the retcon idea. Simply, Kevin changed his mind.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by llywelyn »

ZorValachan wrote:KS thought about Japan one way (some small wilderness islands) in RMB and changed his mind on it when the Rifts: Japan World Book concept was pitched to him.

... Simply, Kevin changed his mind.
You're right to call out the other poster on forgetting which side he was supposed to be arguing, but KC is still wrong.

Kevin deliberately (and fwiw cleverly) wrote that first edition overview behind MDC-layers of unreliable narrator:
  • first, it's some chick named Erin Tarn with a load of obvious bias;
  • second, it's not first-hand accounts, but accounts mixed with second- and third-hand info from other people we have no idea about;
  • third, it speaks vaguely without separating one kind of account from another;
  • fourth, it's been put together by an unnamed second party who may or may not have changed things on his own;
  • fifth, it's unauthorized, which shows Tarn would have some issues with this being published or the phrasing of certain passages (uncertain guesses stated as facts, e.g.); and
  • sixth, it's excerpted, so as readers we can't distinguish whether short passages show no real knowledge or hide complete authority
Kevin always intended to see if he or other people would have more ideas and left himself plenty of "outs" if he needed them. (& btw: seventh, regardless of Japan's internal activity, its isolation from the rest of the world makes the RMB statement completely factual.)

KC made some bad assumptions and got annoyed later. Sucks to be him. [Assuming he doesn't just talk to his GM and get everyone to agree to keep the faulty-reading-comprehension version he liked more.]

But there wasn't any retcon done or needed and Japan fits perfectly with the original account (New West doesn't... at all... but that's a different thread).
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Giant2005 wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Because Tarn isn't really the author- Siembieda is.
And I have yet to hear a good explanation for why Siembieda would, after taking the time and trouble to mention all the times that Tarn is working off of any kind of questionable information, try to add in yet another layer of "but this might not be true!" for a game series that he only expected to write two more books for, one of them being a conversion book.

The simplest explanation is still that Kevin originally intended for Japan to be unpopulated, and later changed his mind.
Nobody has ever, in any way, come up with anything that makes this an unlikely theory.

You can't believe that the same guy who plasters all over the place the fact that the world is the GM's and rules should not be more important than that, would deliberately leave a layer of ambiguity to the overview to ensure the GMs know that the world may not be exactly as described and can then ensure it doesn't negatively alter their game?


Of course I can. That layer of ambiguity is the multiple references Tarn makes to the times where she is working off of rumor or other unreliable information.

What I cannot believe is that Siembieda, who regularly changes rules and in-game information our from under us with NO explanation at all, would bother adding in yet a third or fourth layer of protection when he only planned to write ONE world book to cover the entire planet. It's a level and type of foresight and consideration that he has never otherwise shown anywhere in the entire Rifts line, and even by most standards it would be completely unnecessary.
There is no reason for him to have thought, "Instead of mentioning that Japan is rumored to be unpopulated, what I'll do is to state as fact that it IS just a small cluster of quiet wilderness islands, but then write that the Tarn book is unauthorized- that way IF I change my mind (at some point between now and the sole book I plan to write on the entire planet, that's coming out next year or so), people will know that the bulk of the information I provide about the world in the core book, including this description of Japan, is just a mistake!"

I tend to think that is exactly why he used Tarn to describe the world, I also think it is why he emphasized the fact that she doesn't know everything.


I think that's a convoluted theory that ignores the obvious:
Kevin used Tarn to describe the world in order to be colorful.
He emphasized the fact that she has gaps in her knowledge to explain why he didn't include any information about Australia and a lot of other regions, leaving them blank, as well as to add in plot hooks and GM leeway in the form of rumors and second-hand info, which he notes in the description.

Maybe I just give Kevin too much credit but the optimist in me hopes that I give him exactly as much credit as he deserves.


It doesn't fit the pattern of the books.
Kevin changes game information between Rifts and SB1. Then he changes key stuff again for CB1, and changes bits and pieces here and there pretty much every time a new book comes out.
Kevin is brilliant in a number of ways, and he provides a really great game world, but consistency is NOT his strong suit. It is not something that he puts a heck of a lot of time and energy into.
This is the same guy that suddenly boosted the number of HTH attacks for PCs by 2, and didn't bother to mention it.
This is the same guy that suddenly decided that mages couldn't cast magic as effectively when wearing armor made of metal, then changed it to "any man-made materials," and never explained how this kind of change affects the game world.
This is the same guy that had T-Rexes statted out as having 40 MDC max in the original book, then increased that by 10x or more in New West- the same book where he ignored his previous SB1 population statistics (which he did NOT bother to cover his butt with in any way, presenting the stats as fact without Tarn or any other in-game narrator as a barrier).
The kind of "I'm going to plan way far ahead, and take measures to avoid disturbing continuity when I change my mind about stuff" thinking that you're describing does not fit Siembieda as a person, nor Palladium as a company.
If that was how Kevin thought, the entire history of the game of Rifts would be different, with a lot less of the irritating consistency issues.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

SAMASzero wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:There is only one version of the World Overview


Not anymore, there isn't. The one in the Original Rule book was from Traversing our Modern World. The Ultimate Edition has an all-new one, from her followup Our Changed World. Written post-Tolkieen.


I'll rephrase:
In the context of the conversation, which is about the original Rifts book, there is only one World Overview, written by Tarn.
RUE has nothing to do with it- RUE didn't exist yet, and had nothing to do with Kevin's decision-making when he wrote Rifts.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

llywelyn wrote:
ZorValachan wrote:KS thought about Japan one way (some small wilderness islands) in RMB and changed his mind on it when the Rifts: Japan World Book concept was pitched to him.

... Simply, Kevin changed his mind.
You're right to call out the other poster on forgetting which side he was supposed to be arguing, but KC is still wrong.

Kevin deliberately (and fwiw cleverly) wrote that first edition overview behind MDC-layers of unreliable narrator...


Ignoring the multiple areas that I disagree with you about within your theory for the moment, let's just go with your idea- that Kevin decided to cover his butt by adding not just ONE layer of doubt, but by adding 3-4.
Why is that the ONLY time he bothered to do so?
Why did he describe the world without the filter of Tarn or any other NPC in SB1, then change the information he provided with no explanation?
That sounds pretty out of character for the kind of careful person that you describe, yet it is the standard of behavior for him.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by llywelyn »

Killer Cyborg wrote:That sounds pretty out of character for the kind of careful person that you describe, yet it is the standard of behavior for him.
I'm not saying careful person. It was an inspired dodge b/c he absolutely knew he didn't want to box himself in too much.

And you're absolutely completely right about SB1 & the West. Also doesn't have much to do with Japan, iirc. ;)
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

llywelyn wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:That sounds pretty out of character for the kind of careful person that you describe, yet it is the standard of behavior for him.
I'm not saying careful person. It was an inspired dodge b/c he absolutely knew he didn't want to box himself in too much.


And apparently this inspiration only struck him ONCE in his entire publishing career?

And you're absolutely completely right about SB1 & the West. Also doesn't have much to do with Japan, iirc. ;)


It goes to show that the pattern of behavior he exhibits is NOT the kind of pattern that includes your theories of him covering his butt in the main book, but rather a pattern that perfectly includes my theory that he simply changed his mind after publishing something that was meant at the time to be fact.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by llywelyn »

Killer Cyborg wrote:It goes to show that the pattern of behavior he exhibits is NOT the kind of pattern that includes your theories of him covering his butt in the main book...

Except it's not a theory.

As above, he did in fact do it.

Of course, you still don't see that all, but thought I'd come in and remind you again. :D
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

llywelyn wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:It goes to show that the pattern of behavior he exhibits is NOT the kind of pattern that includes your theories of him covering his butt in the main book...

Except it's not a theory.

As above, he did in fact do it.


In your unsupported opinion.

Of course, you still don't see that all, but thought I'd come in and remind you again. :D


So you're going with the "cosmic fluke" explanation for why he would act the way you describe this ONE time, and never before or after?
Or are you ignoring an uncomfortable question?
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Shark_Force »

CaptKaruthors wrote:Seriously, what does it matter? 12 pages of pointless tripe. If you want to get technical, ToMW was written before the cities in Japan returned...which could very well mean that Erin Tarn in fact did see nothing but wilderness. Now, while you may feel that it's a ham-fisted way of forming a background story for Japan...it is what it is. WB 8 is out and it has been in the can for years. The biggest thing for you KC, is that you feel it's forced..or that KS had different intentions originally. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. The bottom line is that KS and Palladium is in the business to entertain RPGers, sell books, and make money so Palladium prospers. While they would like every book to appeal to everybody..unfortunately you can't please everybody as much as KS would like to do. He understands that. I'm sure there are plenty of things that KS would like to tweak, change, etc. For me, there are a ton of things in the Rifts universe that I don't like..or that I think is silly/ stupid (Dragon and Mega Juicers are some of the dumbest ideas ever), but at the end of the day, I always take the advice KS gave to me and my gaming crew back in 1994...and that is "gaming is a very personal thing". Make the megaverse your own. You aren't locked into what has or hasn't been written in any of the books. To say that you know what KS intentions with Japan was is ridiculous. You don't know anymore about it than we do..and everything you've presented (and everyone else for that matter) is all speculation on your part. Unless you point blank ask KS about what his original ideas for Japan was...everything you've brought up is baseless. Just enjoy the game how you want to enjoy it...and everyone else will do the same.


you appear to have misunderstood. KC is not saying "Japan is not canon". he's not discussing whether or not he likes it (he doesn't, and there's not really much to discuss). he's saying it is a change from what was established canon in Japan, and a bunch of other people are saying it isn't. *that* is what is being discussed.

he could care less if you or anyone else uses what's written in rifts japan. and in fact, if people were to just look at it and say "yup, you're right, it was a change, but i like it", the thread would have ended long ago. but people keep on insisting that nothing changed, that Rifts: Japan is consistent with the RMB, and that kevin had a multi-layer scheme going on to make sure he could change things willy-nilly whenever he wants, when that simply is not how kevin works.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

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Shark_Force wrote:KC is not saying "Japan is not canon". he's not discussing whether or not he likes it (he doesn't, and there's not really much to discuss). he's saying it is a change from what was established canon in Japan, and a bunch of other people are saying it isn't. *that* is what is being discussed.

he could care less if you or anyone else uses what's written in rifts japan. and in fact, if people were to just look at it and say "yup, you're right, it was a change, but i like it", the thread would have ended long ago. but people keep on insisting that nothing changed, that Rifts: Japan is consistent with the RMB, and that kevin had a multi-layer scheme going on to make sure he could change things willy-nilly whenever he wants, when that simply is not how kevin works.


Exactly.
:ok:
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

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ZorValachan wrote:
SAMASzero wrote: This is what is known in the business as a Retcon. Rettroactive Continuity. Something previously said is no longer true (for reasons good or bad). Therefore, Japan was never wiped out (and possibly, Erin Tarn never said that it was).


This is amusing, because here you are clearly stating that KC is right and you are wrong.

KS thought about Japan one way (some small wilderness islands) in RMB and changed his mind on it when the Rifts: Japan World Book concept was pitched to him. All the words written after RMB to 'retcon' this means nothing. It is a newer way to make the change in world view make sense. It does not make it so that there was no change in Kevin's head. That has been KC's point all along. When KS wrote RMB, he had Japan as being a destroyed little wilderness island cluster. Some guy came later and made a pitch to him about cyber-ninjas and KS thought "Wow this is cool" and gave the ok. It just means he changed his mind. But he DID change his mind. Some people like the change, others do not. Everyone quoting Erin Tarn sources in books that are not the RMB (because the RMB was written first) are not showing any legitimate arguments against Kevin changing his mind. In fact, the changes that were made in RUE, weigh heavy in the retcon idea. Simply, Kevin changed his mind.


Wrong in what, exactly? I never said it was any particular way, other than that Erin could have been wrong (and she was, unless RUE retconned that she never said it).

The argument from my angle seems to be whether or not Traversing our Modern World was ever meant to be the definitive "Final-(Unless-I-Say-Otherwise)-Word-of-God" statement on the total state of Rifts' Earth, or just a general Jumping-off point until the World Books went into detail. KC seems to believe it's the former, as Erin Tarn is the one writing it. I say it's the latter, as the entire document as a whole is fairly vague and full or rumors and hearsay, and thus a section cannot be said to be definite unless Erin herself is speaking from personal experience.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

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SAMASzero wrote:The argument from my angle seems to be whether or not Traversing our Modern World was ever meant to be the definitive "Final-(Unless-I-Say-Otherwise)-Word-of-God" statement on the total state of Rifts' Earth, or just a general Jumping-off point until the World Books went into detail.


And the fact that when the RMB was written, Kevin only intended to write ONE World Book, covering the entire planet... that doesn't indicate to you that perhaps he meant for Japan to be just how he originally described it in the RMB?
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
SAMASzero wrote:The argument from my angle seems to be whether or not Traversing our Modern World was ever meant to be the definitive "Final-(Unless-I-Say-Otherwise)-Word-of-God" statement on the total state of Rifts' Earth, or just a general Jumping-off point until the World Books went into detail.


And the fact that when the RMB was written, Kevin only intended to write ONE World Book, covering the entire planet... that doesn't indicate to you that perhaps he meant for Japan to be just how he originally described it in the RMB?


No it doesn't.
Not anymore than I think that the places left undescribed in the RMB would stay undescribed in the never writen World Book.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

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What he said.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

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Dr. Doom III wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
SAMASzero wrote:The argument from my angle seems to be whether or not Traversing our Modern World was ever meant to be the definitive "Final-(Unless-I-Say-Otherwise)-Word-of-God" statement on the total state of Rifts' Earth, or just a general Jumping-off point until the World Books went into detail.


And the fact that when the RMB was written, Kevin only intended to write ONE World Book, covering the entire planet... that doesn't indicate to you that perhaps he meant for Japan to be just how he originally described it in the RMB?


No it doesn't.
Not anymore than I think that the places left undescribed in the RMB would stay undescribed in the never writen World Book.


Why not?
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

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SAMASzero wrote:What he said.


Same question: Why not?
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Mech-Viper Prime »

The wilderness islands were canon until the rifts Japan book came out then it changed but within 9 years she got reports about Japan being nothing like the early reports, but I think the canon changed during the pacific books
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Dr. Doom III wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
SAMASzero wrote:The argument from my angle seems to be whether or not Traversing our Modern World was ever meant to be the definitive "Final-(Unless-I-Say-Otherwise)-Word-of-God" statement on the total state of Rifts' Earth, or just a general Jumping-off point until the World Books went into detail.


And the fact that when the RMB was written, Kevin only intended to write ONE World Book, covering the entire planet... that doesn't indicate to you that perhaps he meant for Japan to be just how he originally described it in the RMB?


No it doesn't.
Not anymore than I think that the places left undescribed in the RMB would stay undescribed in the never writen World Book.


Why not?

Because one has no bearing on the other.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Dr. Doom III wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Dr. Doom III wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
SAMASzero wrote:The argument from my angle seems to be whether or not Traversing our Modern World was ever meant to be the definitive "Final-(Unless-I-Say-Otherwise)-Word-of-God" statement on the total state of Rifts' Earth, or just a general Jumping-off point until the World Books went into detail.


And the fact that when the RMB was written, Kevin only intended to write ONE World Book, covering the entire planet... that doesn't indicate to you that perhaps he meant for Japan to be just how he originally described it in the RMB?


No it doesn't.
Not anymore than I think that the places left undescribed in the RMB would stay undescribed in the never writen World Book.


Why not?

Because one has no bearing on the other.


Odd.
I'd expect that back when Kevin thought that he'd only be writing a single world book, that the book wouldn't have enough room to do much more than to expand on the stuff highlighted in the World Overview.
You know, as Tarn put it, to "elaborate on the places and points which seem to most deserve it."
As opposed to "elaborate on the places that I have just declared to be unpopulated backwaters with nothing of interest."
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

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Killer Cyborg wrote:Odd.
I'd expect that back when Kevin thought that he'd only be writing a single world book, that the book wouldn't have enough room to do much more than to expand on the stuff highlighted in the World Overview.
You know, as Tarn put it, to "elaborate on the places and points which seem to most deserve it."
As opposed to "elaborate on the places that I have just declared to be unpopulated backwaters with nothing of interest."


Or change it since it wasn't locked in stone.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Dr. Doom III wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Odd.
I'd expect that back when Kevin thought that he'd only be writing a single world book, that the book wouldn't have enough room to do much more than to expand on the stuff highlighted in the World Overview.
You know, as Tarn put it, to "elaborate on the places and points which seem to most deserve it."
As opposed to "elaborate on the places that I have just declared to be unpopulated backwaters with nothing of interest."


Or change it since it wasn't locked in stone.


Hey, as long as you agree it's a change.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by CaptKaruthors »

you appear to have misunderstood. KC is not saying "Japan is not canon". he's not discussing whether or not he likes it (he doesn't, and there's not really much to discuss). he's saying it is a change from what was established canon in Japan, and a bunch of other people are saying it isn't. *that* is what is being discussed.

he could care less if you or anyone else uses what's written in rifts japan. and in fact, if people were to just look at it and say "yup, you're right, it was a change, but i like it", the thread would have ended long ago. but people keep on insisting that nothing changed, that Rifts: Japan is consistent with the RMB, and that kevin had a multi-layer scheme going on to make sure he could change things willy-nilly whenever he wants, when that simply is not how kevin works.


There is no misunderstanding. He's complaining about a change..a change that Palladium is perfectly willing and able to do if it will expand the realm of Rifts and sell books. To the others that are arguing with him saying essentially..nuh uh! All they are doing is poking the bear for no reason other than to argue with him for 12 pages straight. Look, canon changes over time for various reasons. Mostly, it's to keep the IP moving along. If KS originally called it a chain of wilderness islands...who gives a fig? As the creator, he's entitled to change his mind (yes I said change). However to claim 100% that he intended originally to keep it that way permanently though is an assumption. Unless you have spoken to him directly on the matter and got the facts directly from KS himself...it doesn't matter what Erin Tarn wrote, intended to write, etc. At the end of the day, only KS knows the full facts behind it and anything else is speculation. To claim you have 100% proof of KS thoughts because of what was written in ToMW is ridiculous. I'm sure he understood that his original ideas had to change at some point as it allowed for the Rifts universe to expand. Holding KS to what was written in ToMW is dumb IMHO..as it would never advance the story/ background of Rifts. Also consider this: By completely eliminating Japan from the game it would alienate possible Asian customers that either live there, or lives here, but want to play in that region of the globe. That wouldn't be good for the business of selling World Books.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Dr. Doom III »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Dr. Doom III wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Odd.
I'd expect that back when Kevin thought that he'd only be writing a single world book, that the book wouldn't have enough room to do much more than to expand on the stuff highlighted in the World Overview.
You know, as Tarn put it, to "elaborate on the places and points which seem to most deserve it."
As opposed to "elaborate on the places that I have just declared to be unpopulated backwaters with nothing of interest."


Or change it since it wasn't locked in stone.


Hey, as long as you agree it's a change.


As long as you agree it wasn't locked in stone. :)
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

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As long as you agree it wasn't locked in stone.


+1:)
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Dr. Doom III wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Hey, as long as you agree it's a change.


As long as you agree it wasn't locked in stone. :)


Never said it was.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

2_Gun_Sally wrote:So this entire debate is over a book coming out well after another book barely mentioned anything about the area?


23 years of Rifts and it wasn't all planned out from day 1. Shame on you KS!


It didn't have to be all planned out.
But it should have been consistent.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Panomas wrote:Getting more serious on the point….

I always thought overall it was fine because it’s very easy for one persons (Erin Tarn) perspective to be wrong


Not really, not when Tarn is acting as the voice of Kevin Siembieda.
It's one thing when she's relaying rumors or information that she is unsure of- something that she notes specifically when it happens.
That's fine- the rumors or hearsay that she's going on could turn out to be wrong.
But in the case of Japan, it's not rumors, it's not heresay... Tarn flat-out states that Japan was destroyed, states it as a cold, hard fact, not something that somebody sketchy told her.

And when Tarn turns out to be "wrong" in cases where she's not simply relaying second-hand information, it damages her credibility as a narrator.
Which damages Kevin's credibility as a narrator.

Whether or not this was the case or whether it was decided later to add something that originally was or wasn’t intended to be there I just fail to see the controversy in the matter. And case in point there is only one person who could answer this question; to which when or if the answer was given that we could reliably believe with certainty of the answer.


There was only supposed to be ONE world book originally, that would cover everywhere not in North America, and the areas to be covered in this book were those addressed in the Traversing Our Modern World excerpts.
Notice how the text we're looking at on p. 137+ in the RMB is "a world overview?"
That's because it was an overview of information that would be expanded on in later books.
Or rather, book.
Or rather, the one World Book that Palladium had planned.

So it wasn't a case of Kevin thinking, "Hey... I know! I'll write in the overview that Japan was destroyed, and nothing's going on there... then in the next book, have a bunch of cyber-ninjas and samurai there!!"
It was a case of Kevin writing that Japan was destroyed, and that being a canon fact of the setting until somebody pitched a Japan World book at him.

As for the controversy, I don't see it either.
Japan was destroyed, Kevin Retconned things so that it was back, and I think it was a crap decision that lead to a crap book.
I don't see any controversy in that; people can shrug and move on if they disagree with my opinion.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Panomas wrote:Finally something we disagree about!!!- :mrgreen:


lol
Bound to happen eventually.

First point that may or may not be debated is whether or not Erin Tarn is in fact acting as the voice of KS. Now there may be some solid reasoning for this but no matter what Erin Tarn is a character of fiction, a character that made a statement about Japan without a personal eye witness account. In other words though Erin makes statements usually under conditions such as you mentioned earlier in this thread, the fact of the matter is she did not (by her own account) witness the demise of Japan and so how would she really know other than here-say? The point being that in the original RMB she does not clarify how she got her information about Japan. So the conclusion I draw is that unless she is specific about how she got her information only from there can we determine the validity of that information.


She is not specific, but to me that is what is telling. As I pointed out, she IS specific when the information that she is relaying is at all in doubt.

The point that I would like to make is that drawing the conclusion that an author’s character and the author have both have the same credibility issue is a mistake. Not simply because you could be right or wrong about the matter; but because even eye-witness accounts have their own problems.


An author that discredits their in-story voice accidentally, discredits their self.

What is it about Rifts Japan that you despise so?

Or is this just a matter of princliple?


I probably go over it at great length in this thread somewhere (or some wheres), but to sum up my complaints:
- Inconsistency.
- Publishing a world book on the opposite end of the planet from where the action is (i.e., North America), when Chi-Town still didn't (and doesn't) have a world book.
- Cyber-Cliches
- One of the things that attracted me to Rifts in the first place was the removal of Japan as a factor.
- Bizarre stuff, like references to Japan having Tech-Ninjas and Techno-Wizards in 1400s Japan.
- The -10 rule.
- And probably some other stuff that I don't remember.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

huh. You and I usually see pretty closely (usually within a few degrees) on most things. but in this case, polar opposite reaction. Rifts Japan is my favorite worldbook.

suffice it to say, the retconn is a complete nonissue for me. he retconned something. it happens. I even went back to check the main book myself when I saw rifts japan sinse I thought I remembered the main book saying it was destroyed. saw that it was, saw the rifts japan book, shrugged and read it. retconns happen, and in this case it was definately for better in my veiw.

I'm not gonna say the book is flawless, it isn't, but is actually one of the most interesting settings for rifts.

but some of your reasons for disliking it baffle me. you say the problem with it is that it's away from north america "where the action is". to which I have to "What?". "the action" is where wherever your party is. if the problem is "but there's no way to get a north american based party to japan easially as written, or even know about it, and therefore is useless to my north-american centric games", then...just make a game not based in north america? I've done it. all it takes is the GM to say "hey, lets all play in germany/poland" or "lets play in south america" or "lets play in atlantis". I've played campaigns where the player characters had never even heard of chi-town and never did learn about it either.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:huh. You and I usually see pretty closely (usually within a few degrees) on most things. but in this case, polar opposite reaction. Rifts Japan is my favorite worldbook.


Somehow, Miss Munchkin Fairy, I'm not astounded.
:p

but some of your reasons for disliking it baffle me. you say the problem with it is that it's away from north america "where the action is". to which I have to "What?". "the action" is where wherever your party is. if the problem is "but there's no way to get a north american based party to japan easially as written, or even know about it, and therefore is useless to my north-american centric games", then...just make a game not based in north america?


Sure, I could start a NEW campaign, and abandon the one that I'd been playing/running for years.
But that's not what I was interested in doing.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:huh. You and I usually see pretty closely (usually within a few degrees) on most things. but in this case, polar opposite reaction. Rifts Japan is my favorite worldbook.


Somehow, Miss Munchkin Fairy, I'm not astounded.
:p


hey hey hey now. rifts japan is only world book 8. stuff didn't get REALLY munchkin until around Juicer Uprising :P :lol:

but some of your reasons for disliking it baffle me. you say the problem with it is that it's away from north america "where the action is". to which I have to "What?". "the action" is where wherever your party is. if the problem is "but there's no way to get a north american based party to japan easially as written, or even know about it, and therefore is useless to my north-american centric games", then...just make a game not based in north america?


Sure, I could start a NEW campaign, and abandon the one that I'd been playing/running for years.
But that's not what I was interested in doing.


by that logic you dislike any world book not in north america? I'm not accusing, i'm genuinely trying to figure out your criteria. what would you consider a good non-north america related worldbook?
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Atlantis is fine; you can get there from North America, even if you don't want to.
And Atlantis factors significantly in North American affairs.
Ditto with the NGR, to a lesser extent.
I didn't mind England too much either. Not for these reasons, anyway. Although it seemed pretty tangent.

Africa at least had a hook, a reason why we might end up there... But in a 5+ year long campaign, we STILL never managed to even get there to deal with the Four Horsemen.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Prysus »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:but some of your reasons for disliking it baffle me. you say the problem with it is that it's away from north america "where the action is". to which I have to "What?". "the action" is where wherever your party is. if the problem is "but there's no way to get a north american based party to japan easially as written, or even know about it, and therefore is useless to my north-american centric games", then...just make a game not based in north america?


Sure, I could start a NEW campaign, and abandon the one that I'd been playing/running for years.
But that's not what I was interested in doing.


by that logic you dislike any world book not in north america? I'm not accusing, i'm genuinely trying to figure out your criteria. what would you consider a good non-north america related worldbook?

Ooooo ... ooooo ... ooooo ... challenge?

Um ... I mean, Greetings and Salutations. I'm bored, so I'm going to see if I can figure this out before he responds. Taking the question, and what I know of Killer Cyborg ... hmmm ....

First, not being based in North America was just one of the complaints (which represented probably only 15%, or less, of his complaint). This means that if a world book didn't have all the other issues he has with Rifts Japan, it could still be a good book (even if only 85% rating, that's still a B on the grading system, right?). Though setting that aside, and sticking mostly to the issue at hand ...

I'm going to say RWB2: Atlantis for starters. While definitely not part of North America, it does still have material that can be used. You can come across a Slave Barge. This introduces new villains. Whether you fight them or flee (considering Killer Cyborg's description of his games, I'd recommend fleeing!), it's a confrontation that can be used in North America. Then, if they fight and lose (or try to escape and fail), there's the chance they'll be brought to Atlantis. This allow the campaign to continue on, naturally and logically, without trying to shoe horn something in that's just implausable.

Another one might be RWB5: Triax & The NGR. Again, not North America, but (as I understand it, since I don't play Rifts and haven't read any of these books), the NGR and the CS are allies (at least to some degree). This, once again, provides a natural connection to the setting at hand. That means players have a way of interacting with this information. If there's weapons trading/shipping, they can be a part of it or try to stop it (depending on which side of the fence they're on, and hey, potentially new tech to boot!). If they're shipping troops for support, this once again can give the players a jumping on point. Basically, it provides some connection, and as a result can be worked in more naturally.

Anyways, those are just my thoughts/predictions. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.


Edit:: Oh darn ... he posted before I did. :P And by qutie a bit. Though I started typing before then. :lol:
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Prysus wrote:[Edit:: Oh darn ... he posted before I did. :P And by qutie a bit. Though I started typing before then. :lol:


And I might as well NOT have posted- you have it covered pretty well!
:ok:

One thing that you and I both left out, though, is that Rifts Japan- as isolated as it is- does not exist in a vacuum.
It's a part of the world of Rifts Earth that Palladium fleshed out specifically.
Which isn't a bad thing in of itself, but it IS a bad thing given the fact that we still don't know what Chi-Town is like.
Rifts: Chi-Town SHOULD have been WB2. Or 3. Or freakin' FOUR, although that would have been putting it a bit late in the game.
But it wasn't any of those, or any of the next couple dozen World Books, or any of the Source books, or any of the generic books.
It simply never, ever, happened.
It's one of many gaping holes in the landscape of Rifts North America... the region where the bulk of the game takes place.
And we know that's where the bulk of the game takes place, because that's what's described in the main book.

It'd be one thing if Palladium filled in the holes in North America, THEN started moving out and filling in the blank spaces around the globe.
But they didn't- they left VAST and KEY regions of North America virtually untouched and undetailed.
And I'm not talking about crap like the "New West" area. Like Japan, that could have (and should have) been left as the essentially empty territory that it was originally described as.
(Although with the New West, they don't have the excuse of "Tarn was wrong," because I'm referring to the official material in SB1, NOT to anything that Kevin wrote in the voice of Tarn).
(But that's another issue)

What I'm talking about can perhaps be best illustrated by flipping to p. 73 of the RMB, where the City Rat OCC is described.
Read the OCC description, and pay attention to bits like...
Most have never been beyond the city walls...
... Those who live in the lower levels of a city are generally nicknamed "Down Siders"...
he may be a computer hacker...


And so forth.

Now ask yourself, WHERE is this character supposed to be adventuring?
In the wilderness of North America?
In frickin' JAPAN?
In the Dinosaur Swamps?
In Tolkeen?
No.

This OCC, this core OCC from the main book, this fundamental character class that serves as one of the main prototypes for the kind of people in Rifts Earth... it's designed for city adventures.
Not just cities in general, but the kind of high-tech, multi-level city that the CS has... well, a certain number of.
And their habitat has STILL never been fleshed out- they are a core class that is STILL missing a setting where they can be truly utilized.
Because Palladium has spent more time and energy putting out world books about Cyber-Ninjas in Japan, or rehashing the King Arthur legend in England, than they have spent filling in the obvious blank spaces that the main book didn't cover, stuff that's actually important to game play unless the GM wants to play every single City Rat as a fish-out-of-water adventurer, and have everything take place out in the wilderness or in the magical cities of the Federation of Magic.
(Okay, there's Juarez. But that's not a multi-level city, nor the kind of high-tech environment that a City Rat was built for. That's like trying to play Case or Hiro Protagonist in Mos Eisley- you CAN do it... but it'll be a bit of a stretch.)

Erin Tarn's World Overview gives us a guide to the interesting places on Rifts Earth, and many of these places are in North America.
And Palladium ignored these places in favor of places that were specifically mentioned as being uninteresting, like Japan.
That's like setting up a Table of Contents for a book, then having the chapters inside cover entirely different material.
That's like giving a tour of the Empire State Building... only the tour spends quite a bit of time in San Francisco, and never gets around to the Observation Deck.
That's like setting a RPG in North America... then skipping over all of the most populated regions, while publishing entire books on places across the planet from the main setting, where nobody in the main setting has any real reason to go, and no real means to get there short of deus ex machina teleportation tricks.

Hell, as I've said before, if Rifts Japan had been a DIMENSION BOOK, I wouldn't have anywhere near as much outrage about it. It's far, far more likely that my characters in North America might stumble through a rift and end up in a completely different dimension than that they'd ever go to Japan.
And it'd be less of a stretch to have sent a Japanese city off to another dimension during the time of the Rifts than to have one disappear... and come back right about where it was to start with.
And it'd be more interesting as well.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Giant2005 »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Spoiler:
One thing that you and I both left out, though, is that Rifts Japan- as isolated as it is- does not exist in a vacuum.
It's a part of the world of Rifts Earth that Palladium fleshed out specifically.
Which isn't a bad thing in of itself, but it IS a bad thing given the fact that we still don't know what Chi-Town is like.
Rifts: Chi-Town SHOULD have been WB2. Or 3. Or freakin' FOUR, although that would have been putting it a bit late in the game.
But it wasn't any of those, or any of the next couple dozen World Books, or any of the Source books, or any of the generic books.
It simply never, ever, happened.
It's one of many gaping holes in the landscape of Rifts North America... the region where the bulk of the game takes place.
And we know that's where the bulk of the game takes place, because that's what's described in the main book.

It'd be one thing if Palladium filled in the holes in North America, THEN started moving out and filling in the blank spaces around the globe.
But they didn't- they left VAST and KEY regions of North America virtually untouched and undetailed.
And I'm not talking about crap like the "New West" area. Like Japan, that could have (and should have) been left as the essentially empty territory that it was originally described as.
(Although with the New West, they don't have the excuse of "Tarn was wrong," because I'm referring to the official material in SB1, NOT to anything that Kevin wrote in the voice of Tarn).
(But that's another issue)

What I'm talking about can perhaps be best illustrated by flipping to p. 73 of the RMB, where the City Rat OCC is described.
Read the OCC description, and pay attention to bits like...
Most have never been beyond the city walls...
... Those who live in the lower levels of a city are generally nicknamed "Down Siders"...
he may be a computer hacker...


And so forth.

Now ask yourself, WHERE is this character supposed to be adventuring?
In the wilderness of North America?
In frickin' JAPAN?
In the Dinosaur Swamps?
In Tolkeen?
No.

This OCC, this core OCC from the main book, this fundamental character class that serves as one of the main prototypes for the kind of people in Rifts Earth... it's designed for city adventures.
Not just cities in general, but the kind of high-tech, multi-level city that the CS has... well, a certain number of.
And their habitat has STILL never been fleshed out- they are a core class that is STILL missing a setting where they can be truly utilized.
Because Palladium has spent more time and energy putting out world books about Cyber-Ninjas in Japan, or rehashing the King Arthur legend in England, than they have spent filling in the obvious blank spaces that the main book didn't cover, stuff that's actually important to game play unless the GM wants to play every single City Rat as a fish-out-of-water adventurer, and have everything take place out in the wilderness or in the magical cities of the Federation of Magic.
(Okay, there's Juarez. But that's not a multi-level city, nor the kind of high-tech environment that a City Rat was built for. That's like trying to play Case or Hiro Protagonist in Mos Eisley- you CAN do it... but it'll be a bit of a stretch.)

Erin Tarn's World Overview gives us a guide to the interesting places on Rifts Earth, and many of these places are in North America.
And Palladium ignored these places in favor of places that were specifically mentioned as being uninteresting, like Japan.
That's like setting up a Table of Contents for a book, then having the chapters inside cover entirely different material.
That's like giving a tour of the Empire State Building... only the tour spends quite a bit of time in San Francisco, and never gets around to the Observation Deck.
That's like setting a RPG in North America... then skipping over all of the most populated regions, while publishing entire books on places across the planet from the main setting, where nobody in the main setting has any real reason to go, and no real means to get there short of deus ex machina teleportation tricks.

Hell, as I've said before, if Rifts Japan had been a DIMENSION BOOK, I wouldn't have anywhere near as much outrage about it. It's far, far more likely that my characters in North America might stumble through a rift and end up in a completely different dimension than that they'd ever go to Japan.
And it'd be less of a stretch to have sent a Japanese city off to another dimension during the time of the Rifts than to have one disappear... and come back right about where it was to start with.
And it'd be more interesting as well.

I can't really think of a way to disagree more.
I think the Coalition already has way too many books devoted to it and that the other places in the world need more attention.
I don't know if I am in the majority on this (but judging from the "How Did You Get Into Rifts and Why Do You Keep Playing" thread, it sure seems like my perspective is in the majority) but I love Rifts because it gives us so many options. It is my belief that more options are better than less options, even at the expense of clarity.
Instead of focusing even more on North America, the game needs more connections between the less traveled locations on the planet, giving them more reason to exist in the process. Lemuria was a prime candidate for forging such connections, it is truly a shame that it wasn't utilized as such.
If the other areas had more attention and interaction with one another, you wouldn't think the way you do because America wouldn't be your default. The other areas would have equal cause to inspire a great campaign.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by kaid »

I do find it funny that the two cities talked most about in all the rifts lore Chi Town and Lazlo have only the briefest and vaguest descriptions of them.

I am a map freak and I would love to see what even a rough sketch layout of chi town as it would make a good template for all the other CS fortress cities just scale them down in size.

I would still rather see lazlo first as CS does have quite a bit of information out about them in a lot more detail than lazlo and rifts in general is heavy on tech and much ligher on generally usable magic and VERY light on psychic powers that are not OCC specific.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Nightmask »

Giant2005 wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Spoiler:
One thing that you and I both left out, though, is that Rifts Japan- as isolated as it is- does not exist in a vacuum.
It's a part of the world of Rifts Earth that Palladium fleshed out specifically.
Which isn't a bad thing in of itself, but it IS a bad thing given the fact that we still don't know what Chi-Town is like.
Rifts: Chi-Town SHOULD have been WB2. Or 3. Or freakin' FOUR, although that would have been putting it a bit late in the game.
But it wasn't any of those, or any of the next couple dozen World Books, or any of the Source books, or any of the generic books.
It simply never, ever, happened.
It's one of many gaping holes in the landscape of Rifts North America... the region where the bulk of the game takes place.
And we know that's where the bulk of the game takes place, because that's what's described in the main book.

It'd be one thing if Palladium filled in the holes in North America, THEN started moving out and filling in the blank spaces around the globe.
But they didn't- they left VAST and KEY regions of North America virtually untouched and undetailed.
And I'm not talking about crap like the "New West" area. Like Japan, that could have (and should have) been left as the essentially empty territory that it was originally described as.
(Although with the New West, they don't have the excuse of "Tarn was wrong," because I'm referring to the official material in SB1, NOT to anything that Kevin wrote in the voice of Tarn).
(But that's another issue)

What I'm talking about can perhaps be best illustrated by flipping to p. 73 of the RMB, where the City Rat OCC is described.
Read the OCC description, and pay attention to bits like...
Most have never been beyond the city walls...
... Those who live in the lower levels of a city are generally nicknamed "Down Siders"...
he may be a computer hacker...


And so forth.

Now ask yourself, WHERE is this character supposed to be adventuring?
In the wilderness of North America?
In frickin' JAPAN?
In the Dinosaur Swamps?
In Tolkeen?
No.

This OCC, this core OCC from the main book, this fundamental character class that serves as one of the main prototypes for the kind of people in Rifts Earth... it's designed for city adventures.
Not just cities in general, but the kind of high-tech, multi-level city that the CS has... well, a certain number of.
And their habitat has STILL never been fleshed out- they are a core class that is STILL missing a setting where they can be truly utilized.
Because Palladium has spent more time and energy putting out world books about Cyber-Ninjas in Japan, or rehashing the King Arthur legend in England, than they have spent filling in the obvious blank spaces that the main book didn't cover, stuff that's actually important to game play unless the GM wants to play every single City Rat as a fish-out-of-water adventurer, and have everything take place out in the wilderness or in the magical cities of the Federation of Magic.
(Okay, there's Juarez. But that's not a multi-level city, nor the kind of high-tech environment that a City Rat was built for. That's like trying to play Case or Hiro Protagonist in Mos Eisley- you CAN do it... but it'll be a bit of a stretch.)

Erin Tarn's World Overview gives us a guide to the interesting places on Rifts Earth, and many of these places are in North America.
And Palladium ignored these places in favor of places that were specifically mentioned as being uninteresting, like Japan.
That's like setting up a Table of Contents for a book, then having the chapters inside cover entirely different material.
That's like giving a tour of the Empire State Building... only the tour spends quite a bit of time in San Francisco, and never gets around to the Observation Deck.
That's like setting a RPG in North America... then skipping over all of the most populated regions, while publishing entire books on places across the planet from the main setting, where nobody in the main setting has any real reason to go, and no real means to get there short of deus ex machina teleportation tricks.

Hell, as I've said before, if Rifts Japan had been a DIMENSION BOOK, I wouldn't have anywhere near as much outrage about it. It's far, far more likely that my characters in North America might stumble through a rift and end up in a completely different dimension than that they'd ever go to Japan.
And it'd be less of a stretch to have sent a Japanese city off to another dimension during the time of the Rifts than to have one disappear... and come back right about where it was to start with.
And it'd be more interesting as well.

I can't really think of a way to disagree more.
I think the Coalition already has way too many books devoted to it and that the other places in the world need more attention.
I don't know if I am in the majority on this (but judging from the "How Did You Get Into Rifts and Why Do You Keep Playing" thread, it sure seems like my perspective is in the majority) but I love Rifts because it gives us so many options. It is my belief that more options are better than less options, even at the expense of clarity.
Instead of focusing even more on North America, the game needs more connections between the less traveled locations on the planet, giving them more reason to exist in the process. Lemuria was a prime candidate for forging such connections, it is truly a shame that it wasn't utilized as such.
If the other areas had more attention and interaction with one another, you wouldn't think the way you do because America wouldn't be your default. The other areas would have equal cause to inspire a great campaign.


I have to agree with this, North America gets tons of coverage, but the Earth is way more than just North America and even in ancient times people managed to cover what would seem like impossible journeys and that's totally by land and water in Rifts you've got random rifts that can send you to other continents in seconds. Opportunities abound to travel around the world but if the world isn't well covered there isn't as much fun to it and one thing Rifts fans seem to favor is having actual books from Palladium on various areas instead of having to devise it all themselves, material that they can use as a springboard (and for some actually have a book that *gasp* covers where THEY live for a change).
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by flatline »

Does Japan have enough "meat" to be a standalone setting without North America?

I've only got a handful of world books and was thinking of getting some more. Japan seems like a likely candidate. My current world books are Atlantis, England, Psyscape, and Federation of Magic. All my other books are either sourcebooks or dimension books.

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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Razzinold »

Hey KC, maybe you should rename this thread "Killer Cyborg's Eternal Rifts Japan Debate". :mrgreen:
Can't believe it's still going strong since 2005! :shock: :-D
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by kaid »

Yup but it is in keeping with the new book that was released. He is a heroic thread necromancer!
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Giant2005 wrote:I can't really think of a way to disagree more.
I think the Coalition already has way too many books devoted to it and that the other places in the world need more attention.


It might have too many books devoted to it, it might not.
Amount of books isn't the issue; the issue is the content.
And we still don't have enough info on what the average CS city is like to run a decent adventure in one.

I don't know if I am in the majority on this (but judging from the "How Did You Get Into Rifts and Why Do You Keep Playing" thread, it sure seems like my perspective is in the majority) but I love Rifts because it gives us so many options. It is my belief that more options are better than less options, even at the expense of clarity.


You can have variety without dropping important world info in favor of world info on regions that have already been declared to be unpopulated.

Instead of focusing even more on North America, the game needs more connections between the less traveled locations on the planet, giving them more reason to exist in the process.


Why focus on this planet?
Why, out of the literally infinity of possibilities in the Mega-Verse, in a game where inter-dimensional portals are relatively common and inter-continental travel is extremely uncommon, do we need to know more about the backwater regions of this planet any more than we need to know more about the other dimensions that have more potential interactions with the primary setting?
Why give reasons to exist to places that don't really matter in the first place?
Why does an unpopulated cluster of wilderness islands on the other side of the planet need more reason to exist than Chi-Town does?

Lemuria was a prime candidate for forging such connections, it is truly a shame that it wasn't utilized as such.
If the other areas had more attention and interaction with one another, you wouldn't think the way you do because America wouldn't be your default. The other areas would have equal cause to inspire a great campaign.


No, they wouldn't, because I couldn't give a crap about them.
Not even because I personally live in North America, but because North America is the key setting for the game- it's what the main book focuses on.
Just like when I play Robotech, I focus on what the RDF is doing, not what the aborigines in the Australian Outback are doing.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Prysus wrote:[Edit:: Oh darn ... he posted before I did. :P And by qutie a bit. Though I started typing before then. :lol:


And I might as well NOT have posted- you have it covered pretty well!
:ok:


Unfortunately for Prisus (and you), I said "non-north america related book. you defined the utility of those books in terms of "how they relate to north america". If you can't consider any world book good if it dosn't tie in some way back to north america i'm sorry but I find that to be a very bad way to structure world books and i'm glad palladium didn't stick with it. In a world like rifts, there should be isolated places that have little to nothing to do with the "main' area (North america), and there should be books devoted to those places. It fleshes out the game, gives you interesting foreign places to discover or be discovered by, and lets you set campaigns with completely different tones than what you find in north america.

One thing that you and I both left out, though, is that Rifts Japan- as isolated as it is- does not exist in a vacuum.
It's a part of the world of Rifts Earth that Palladium fleshed out specifically.


True, they do have some contact with china and korea and are aware of the new navy and other pacific factions. (I don't recall off the top of my head if they're aware of the lemurians or not)
Which isn't a bad thing in of itself, but it IS a bad thing given the fact that we still don't know what Chi-Town is like.
Rifts: Chi-Town SHOULD have been WB2. Or 3. Or freakin' FOUR, although that would have been putting it a bit late in the game.
But it wasn't any of those, or any of the next couple dozen World Books, or any of the Source books, or any of the generic books.
It simply never, ever, happened.


So basically "This book is bad because I wanted a different book entirely about something else, and they made this instead". to which I have to say is dreck. The fact that there isn't a chi-town book has no bearing whatsoever on the quality of rifts japan as a book. at all. the fact that it's not chi-town is in no way a valid mark aginst it.

It's one of many gaping holes in the landscape of Rifts North America... the region where the bulk of the game takes place.
And we know that's where the bulk of the game takes place, because that's what's described in the main book.

It'd be one thing if Palladium filled in the holes in North America, THEN started moving out and filling in the blank spaces around the globe.
But they didn't- they left VAST and KEY regions of North America virtually untouched and undetailed.
And I'm not talking about crap like the "New West" area. Like Japan, that could have (and should have) been left as the essentially empty territory that it was originally described as.
(Although with the New West, they don't have the excuse of "Tarn was wrong," because I'm referring to the official material in SB1, NOT to anything that Kevin wrote in the voice of Tarn).
(But that's another issue)


again, those are potentially flaws with the corporate release date, but how does that in any way effect the quality of the rifts japan book?

What I'm talking about can perhaps be best illustrated by flipping to p. 73 of the RMB, where the City Rat OCC is described.
Read the OCC description, and pay attention to bits like...
Most have never been beyond the city walls...
... Those who live in the lower levels of a city are generally nicknamed "Down Siders"...
he may be a computer hacker...


And so forth.

Now ask yourself, WHERE is this character supposed to be adventuring?
In the wilderness of North America?
In frickin' JAPAN?
In the Dinosaur Swamps?
In Tolkeen?
No.
book, this fundamental character class that serves as one of the main prototypes for the kind of people in Rifts Earth... it's designed for city adventures.
This OCC, this core OCC from the main
Not just cities in general, but the kind of high-tech, multi-level city that the CS has... well, a certain number of.
And their habitat has STILL never been fleshed out- they are a core class that is STILL missing a setting where they can be truly utilized.
Because Palladium has spent more time and energy putting out world books about Cyber-Ninjas in Japan, or rehashing the King Arthur legend in England, than they have spent filling in the obvious blank spaces that the main book didn't cover, stuff that's actually important to game play unless the GM wants to play every single City Rat as a fish-out-of-water adventurer, and have everything take place out in the wilderness or in the magical cities of the Federation of Magic.


actually, the republic of japan has exactly the same kind of fortified multi-layered mega-cities the coalition states has, so they fit in perfectly there. :P

however, while I agree that the flavor text indicates that they are based on coalition mega cities, they fit in just fine with any high-tech city anywhere on rifts earth. Triax, Republic of Japan, Merctown, the silver republic, the australian arcologies. there are high tech city states all over the world.

now again, these are all over except for the coalition where they started, which is true. but I don't see how it's valid to judge a book by the fact it's not another book. are you mad at twilight because it's not Dune? are you mad at Dune because it's not sherlock holmes? the logic here escapes me.

(Okay, there's Juarez. But that's not a multi-level city, nor the kind of high-tech environment that a City Rat was built for. That's like trying to play Case or Hiro Protagonist in Mos Eisley- you CAN do it... but it'll be a bit of a stretch.)


your better off with kingsdale and merctown, I think.

Erin Tarn's World Overview gives us a guide to the interesting places on Rifts Earth, and many of these places are in North America.
And Palladium ignored these places in favor of places that were specifically mentioned as being uninteresting, like Japan.
That's like setting up a Table of Contents for a book, then having the chapters inside cover entirely different material.
That's like giving a tour of the Empire State Building... only the tour spends quite a bit of time in San Francisco, and never gets around to the Observation Deck.
That's like setting a RPG in North America... then skipping over all of the most populated regions, while publishing entire books on places across the planet from the main setting, where nobody in the main setting has any real reason to go, and no real means to get there short of deus ex machina teleportation tricks.


On the other hand, it provides plenty of opportunity to play different games in different settings on the same world that can still be gotten to if the players and GM want to. I also think it's flawed to judge a RPG book based on how much it is relevent to "the game I currently have going". not every book is useable in every game, other than the core book, but that dosn't mean those books arn't good. they should be judged on "So if I actually WERE to set a game here, how well would it play out?"

and by that logic, Atlantis as a setting ranks pretty far down on the list of useful books. Sure it has a lot of neat toys and a few interesting classes, and you can run into minions anywhere in the megaverse, but the fact is atlantis itself isn't a place i'd ever want to set a game in. the only stories you can tell there are "being a slave" and "being a slave trying to escape". it's completely one note.
Hell, as I've said before, if Rifts Japan had been a DIMENSION BOOK, I wouldn't have anywhere near as much outrage about it. It's far, far more likely that my characters in North America might stumble through a rift and end up in a completely different dimension than that they'd ever go to Japan.


Uh, random rifts can lead to other places on Rifts earth just as easially to another dimension. I've been in lots of games where random rifts were used to move us around to wherever the GM felt like setting the adventure that month.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

flatline wrote:Does Japan have enough "meat" to be a standalone setting without North America?

I've only got a handful of world books and was thinking of getting some more. Japan seems like a likely candidate. My current world books are Atlantis, England, Psyscape, and Federation of Magic. All my other books are either sourcebooks or dimension books.

--flatline

It definatly does! in fact, it's designed to be a standalone setting.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Razzinold »

kaid wrote:Yup but it is in keeping with the new book that was released. He is a heroic thread necromancer!



Which new book is that ?

Well technically the credit for breathing new life into this thread goes to Panomas and his apparent love of tacos! :lol:
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Nightmask wrote: Opportunities abound to travel around the world


Yes and no.
On one hand, there are theoretical ways for characters to travel across the globe.
On the other hand, regions are supposed to be isolated from each other, for the most part, and long-distance travel is supposed to be uncommon and difficult.
It's always been one of the divides in the game where what is shown mechanically does not reflect what is shown in the flavor-text.

But for me, a post-apocalyptic world where humanity is struggling to get back onto its feet is one hell of a lot less interesting if the characters can flit across the globe on a whim than it is if communities are more isolated and travel is difficult.
So that's how I prefer things.

And, in either case, it's still easier to end up in another dimension entirely than it is to get to Japan or Australia or wherever.

but if the world isn't well covered there isn't as much fun to it and one thing Rifts fans seem to favor is having actual books from Palladium on various areas instead of having to devise it all themselves


I agree that if the world isn't well covered, there isn't much fun to it, and it's better to have actual books from Palladium on various areas instead of having to devise it all ourselves.
Which is precisely why, after 23 years of wondering what the CS cities are like... not to mention Lazlo, Tolkeen (not that it matters anymore), The Manistique Imperium, and all the many, many other cities that are only very loosely glossed over in the books that take place in North America.
As you say, if North America isn't well covered, then it isn't as much fun to play there.
And North America isn't well covered.
And I, as you say, would rather have actual books from Palladium on the various areas in North America than to have to devise it all myself.

Off the top of your head, how many CS cities are there?
How many can you name?
How many do you have maps of?

And yet, CS cities are THE place where at least one of the core book OCCs (the City Rat) is supposed to operate, to the extent that most City Rats have never even left their city.
And over the past 23 years, we know next to nothing about these cities, and if we want to write an adventure set in one, we have to make most of it up ourselves, because these key settings are simply NOT well covered.
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Re: Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

Unread post by kaid »

The new vampires source book one of the thing it talks about are heroic necromancers using their dark arts to help fight vampires with reids rangers.
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