Are Non-human Persons?

[Killer Cyborg]

i had a big thing written. and it didn't post. dang.

Man, I hate it when that happens!

I've learned to occasionally, when making a super-long post, use the Save feature or to Copy what I've written so far into the buffer, so I can retrieve it later.

But I still slip up now and then, and it's pretty discouraging.

[llywelyn]

I've learned to occasionally, when making a super-long post, use the Save feature or to Copy what I've written so far into the buffer, so I can retrieve it later.

Your way is safest - sometimes I used to write out posts in notepad and then paste them into a forum - but my current version of Chrome usually saves the form stuff, if I've just gone one page forward or backwards. Just hit back and it shows up again.

(I really can't recommend it, since Google started tracking activity. At the same time, I myself can't use Firefox, since it doesn't let me page up or page down correctly.)

[The Baron of chaos]

That Lazlo continues to exist is authorial fiat/filibuster - in real life, it would be a wretched den of inhuman slavery and feudalistic privilege enforced by the magical Dbees against the lower classes.

I find that to be fairly realistic assessment actually.

At best the nonmagical would probably be second class citizens, even if it was just human magic users running the show. Let alone Dragons or other such magical beings that would probably view us as pawns to use in their games. It would be likely that Xeno control or oppression (or "guidance" if some of you would prefer) of humanity would be the order of the day, subvertly or overtly. If you had the skill subvertly would probably be easier, making the lower class think they're helping themselves when they're really just Xeno pawns.

Somehow I just think Xeno occupation of Terra would go down like the Spanish Conquest of the Canary Islands. I'm for a free humanity.

The problem with amagic driven society is that magic eventually start to shape the society much like some technology changed and shaped our own. On the positive side magic soceity is an extremely meritocratic society, as in theory everyone could learn magic, but in practice end up being lead by people who in search of power had trespassed the humankind(being good or bad is irrelevant , as we are talking that normal human aspect they had to leave behind in order to get to the "top") This leave the human leadership of magician lacking any political empathy, and being extremely rigid. In the end spellcaster become a caste. Add to the fact that inhuman creatures can by sheer natural talent or simply because they are long lived, reach easier the top and still reamain "ground rooted" and I can see your problem.
But this does not mean that D-bee or magic are inherently evil or harmful for the humankind, just there are troubles to face expecially if you do not adpat and devlope new social systems to make things works in a suitable way(and is not easy, hell even without magic or d-bees is not easy!! )

For D-Bees I see some problems arising from few fact:
a) Some D-Bees are always armed and dangerous. Is a problem expecially for Natural MDC creatures with superhuman strength. Add weird offensive powers and natural weapons and you have someone that no matter how nice act, still make you nervous to stay around(aka Ben Grimm's Dilemma.)
b)Some D-Bees are truly truly alien, not many as one could expect, but there are. These one freak you out, as while often not really dangeorus, they lack any understanding or feeling for humans. this is troubling becasue make hard and near impossible to deal with. The supernatural equivalent are Elementals, who are not evil per se but simply do not get mortals at all
c) Some D-bees are insanley long lived. This create a double bridge as they grow more and more detached with mortals, and more and more see thems as hyoperactive child at best. Even the way time is perceived can become insanely different. For someone who is de-facto immortal 50 years are nothing, for a human is lot of time.
d) Some d-bees have storng traditions that mkae hard to find common ground with humans: Kydians do not know what birth control means(and Splugorth do not want them to know, as they are perfect as they are, an almost endless supply of cannon fodder!), Larmac make laziness a virtue, Floopers are..well...yeah...Floopers. You see the problem. Not talking about Simvan cannibalistic rituals and the fact consider any non Simvan not true people...
e)Talkin abot Simvan is worth noting that a lot of Rifts D-bees major groups come from a primitive societies. This is quite a problem as they have another thing that create a gap with more advanced human social groups, but make co-existance easier with similar tribal groups, albeit rivalry still exist. Most civilized D-Bees are in such scattered and low number to make group relations hard and complicated


Now this does not means co-existance is not possible only can be possible if two part move to an agreement, often involving a compromise. Germany attempted it, and one of the most awesome general of NGR is a powerful D-Bee, but is still baby steps(helped by the corporacratic influence of Triax, as corporation logic is kinda different from standard - Corporations in Rifts Earth would need a discussion apart IMHO). This is hard, but not impossible. As is not Impossible for Lazlo being, for now, an haven runnig smoothly...but who know if can last under pressure. One thing is being friends when things go well, is another is when **** hit the fan(I'm Italian and even for personal family history I know how much truth there is in these words). Still Co-existanc eis a better and pragmatic idea than genocide. Send them in a better world through Rifts could be pragmatic....if not only required lot of magic research to avoid sending them in MEchanoid infested world and won't prevent them popping back again at first random rifts(that no one can prevetn by the way, except by using pyramids and millenium trees...). Still considering sentinent being worth of same dignity as person is NOT wrong. As this does nto means you can't take some harsh measures/sacrifice, much the same one will do to another human...mors tua vita mea...
But giving enlightment and possible coexistance is woth giving a chance, as if things go well one could get AWESOME results(Phase world is the ideal Rifts earth should aim to, but without Prometheans it would be hard to reach i admit it)

[Nightmask]

Again, repeatedly stating that you have no concern for human survival is not the way to win converts.

Given I've never stated that I really don't have anything to worry about now do I?

Too bad that can't be given.

I suppose not, I imagine you'll continue ascribing statements to myself that were never actually made and hope that I either get tired of correcting you so whatever your last false statement is will remain and people will read it and assume it must be true because I didn't dispute it instead of just getting too bored with dealing with it to waste time correcting you yet again.

Problem being, it's not so easy to tell the one from the other.

True, but [it's hypocritical for humans to assume other beings are dangerous, since humans are too.]

(Which is a nonseq. unless you're more concerned with avoiding hypocrisy than survival.)

Which again is absolutely not anything I said and again not the issue here. The question is not 'hey do people stop being people when survival is on the line?' or 'what will people do when survival is on the line?', and again why the CS refuses to accept them as people has nothing to do with survival. Killing people because you want their land or are prejudiced against them is not about survival, and no matter how much you insist 'well it's about survival so they aren't people' you're wrong. Human beings kill other human beings just fine while still thinking them human beings, they just selfishly think that they're more important human beings so deserve that kid's sneakers more or that girl's necklace.

Enlightenment is a great thing, working with others to make live worth living but soon as the resources get limited then it's about survival it's your family vs them.

A distressingly pessimistic outlook on things, and as I noted [people are too weak to survive by fighting all potential threats.]

(And that in the face of the CS's success at doing just that.)

Again that's not what I said, if you're going to respond to something actually quote what I actually said, so people can see what you're actually not responding to instead of hoping they won't look back and see that what you're quoting is totally unrelated to what I've actually said. Do you even actually bother reading anything, or do you just toss out whatever comes into your head in place of what someone's actually said and respond to yourself over everything? Because again the CS is not killing D-Bees out of survival, they're killing them out of greed and hate which don't have a damned thing to do with survival. 'They aren't like us we must kill them to survive!' has been the mantra of the hate-filled and greedy down through the ages, selling people a story because it's easier to get your people to murder if they think it's for a good cause.

This also isn't a discussion about 'what do beings become when pushed to the wall' but whether or not non-humans are beings deserving the same rights and chances as humans. Which they are. You don't go around killing people because it's easier to kill them because you're too overly inflated about your own value.

(There is no over-inflation to my value. I am willing to be altruistic for my family and it's evolutionarily advantageous to be so. Being altruistic for life in general is insane.)

Then there are other examples from the CS thread.

You aren't describing altruism, if you're going around killing people because they exist and trying to pass it off as altruism you're a psychopath. Your attitude is the kind that gives everyone else a justifiable reason to kill you, someone willing to pass off murder as acceptable because 'well hey it's in my opinion in the best interest of my family' is a threat to everyone because they're willing to do anything. So YOU are the biggest threat to your family.

[Nightmask]

Aliens fight humans that like bambi vs godzilla

You're not stating facts though, you're stating opinions, ones not supported by the actual facts. There are thousands of alien species on Rifts Earth because of the Cataclysm, it's not even remotely factual to lump them under a heading like 'aliens' and claim that humanity on Rifts Earth comes off as lesser beings to them all let alone that they all behave as if humans are lesser beings. Various alien races are shown working with humans and being friends and allies all over Rifts Earth, so it's certainly not a fact that they're acting as if humans were just pets or slaves. The fact some do doesn't even come close to justifying a 'kill them all' policy or 'they aren't human so we don't have to think of them as people we can kill them all without remorse'.

ok name them then since there are so many

On top of which, he's acting like the CS is solely genocidal.

The Burbs are full of Dbees who are left alone unless they're causing trouble.

Speaking of which, he's also apparently ignorant that fully 15% of the Burbs die each year from Dbee and demon attack, according to that font of all truth Erin Tarn. (Another 20% die of disease. Given the CS's advanced GM and medicinal capability, a huge portion of that has to be xenodemic.)

Now quote to us how many people in the Burbs die from the CS. Because the CS regularly goes in and kills off entire sections when the mood strikes, particularly if they think a D-bee is in the area. Oh, and give a break-down of what percentage of those killer D-bees are of which races. Oh and the CS's advanced medicine is reserved for the CS, NOT for non-citizens out in the Burbs so those 20% dying from disease most of it is what you'd expect from a squalid slum and unlikely to have anything to do with alien diseases.

Oh, and I'd no more advocate murdering 100% of aliens because some are bad anymore than I'd advocate murdering 100% of blacks because some are criminals. Because I'm not off in the head to where I'd think it acceptable in any fashion to kill millions of innocent people for the actions of a few especially when the few aren't even of their species.

[Nightmask]

That Lazlo continues to exist is authorial fiat/filibuster - in real life, it would be a wretched den of inhuman slavery and feudalistic privilege enforced by the magical Dbees against the lower classes.

I find that to be fairly realistic assessment actually.

At best the nonmagical would probably be second class citizens, even if it was just human magic users running the show. Let alone Dragons or other such magical beings that would probably view us as pawns to use in their games. It would be likely that Xeno control or oppression (or "guidance" if some of you would prefer) of humanity would be the order of the day, subvertly or overtly. If you had the skill subvertly would probably be easier, making the lower class think they're helping themselves when they're really just Xeno pawns.

Somehow I just think Xeno occupation of Terra would go down like the Spanish Conquest of the Canary Islands. I'm for a free humanity.

Sounds not even close to a fair or realistic assessment. Particularly since the CS would have ended long before Lazlo did without the author keeping it alive and successful. The people that want it dead don't do anything even when the CS leaves itself vulnerable and the CS actively goes around picking fights with people that weren't bothering it (Hello, Tolkeen! ) giving everyone who'd like to survive a REALLY good reason to want to take it out before it takes them out.

[Nightmask]

I know but if CS did that they would be FQ

I don't follow.

The CS already does that, per Tarn.

But I like to point where the CS got most of their anti dbees policies straight out of free quebec

No, the CS got its policies from the CS and tried to force them onto Free Quebec. Seriously, what is it with people trying to pass off the CS's genocidal policies on Free Quebec even when it's well known that their policy is 'hey you stay over there off our land and we've got no problems with you, even if we hate you as dangerous alien scum'. Which is one of the problems the CS had with FQ, it wouldn't get with the program of aggressive expansion and killing off all non-humans. Funny how the average D-Bee doesn't seem to hate FQ or want to see it destroyed like they do the CS, wonder why that is? Oh right, FQ isn't going around picking fights with everyone giving them reasons to want to kill them. Who'd have thought it, don't go around killing people just for existing and because you want their land and they won't come killing you. How radical.

[Killer Cyborg]

That Lazlo continues to exist is authorial fiat/filibuster - in real life, it would be a wretched den of inhuman slavery and feudalistic privilege enforced by the magical Dbees against the lower classes.

I find that to be fairly realistic assessment actually.

At best the nonmagical would probably be second class citizens, even if it was just human magic users running the show. Let alone Dragons or other such magical beings that would probably view us as pawns to use in their games. It would be likely that Xeno control or oppression (or "guidance" if some of you would prefer) of humanity would be the order of the day, subvertly or overtly. If you had the skill subvertly would probably be easier, making the lower class think they're helping themselves when they're really just Xeno pawns.

Somehow I just think Xeno occupation of Terra would go down like the Spanish Conquest of the Canary Islands. I'm for a free humanity.

Sounds not even close to a fair or realistic assessment. Particularly since the CS would have ended long before Lazlo did without the author keeping it alive and successful. The people that want it dead don't do anything even when the CS leaves itself vulnerable and the CS actively goes around picking fights with people that weren't bothering it (Hello, Tolkeen! ) giving everyone who'd like to survive a REALLY good reason to want to take it out before it takes them out.

People would say similar things about the US, or any other large nation, if they read about it in a book.

Personally, I can't really see a problem with either Lazlo or Tolkeen as written, though that might only be because not a lot has been written about Lazlo.
I'd like to see a well thought-out and in-depth book that analyzes the inter-species relations in that kind of environment, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Nightmask]

Aliens fight humans that like bambi vs godzilla

You're not stating facts though, you're stating opinions, ones not supported by the actual facts. There are thousands of alien species on Rifts Earth because of the Cataclysm, it's not even remotely factual to lump them under a heading like 'aliens' and claim that humanity on Rifts Earth comes off as lesser beings to them all let alone that they all behave as if humans are lesser beings. Various alien races are shown working with humans and being friends and allies all over Rifts Earth, so it's certainly not a fact that they're acting as if humans were just pets or slaves. The fact some do doesn't even come close to justifying a 'kill them all' policy or 'they aren't human so we don't have to think of them as people we can kill them all without remorse'.

ok name them then since there are so many

On top of which, he's acting like the CS is solely genocidal.

The Burbs are full of Dbees who are left alone unless they're causing trouble.

Speaking of which, he's also apparently ignorant that fully 15% of the Burbs die each year from Dbee and demon attack, according to that font of all truth Erin Tarn.

I know but if CS did that they would be FQ

Do you even bother reading the actual books? Because it doesn't sound like it with statements like that. If the CS was like FQ all the people they murdered in Tolkeen would be alive, Tolkeen wouldn't have been forced to call up evil powers in order to survive (hey look there you go, people doing whatever it takes to survive, how laudable, since if it's just fine for the CS it's fine for everyone else), and every non-human on the planet wouldn't have a reason to want to see them destroyed. Because only a high-grade moron prefers having 100% of everyone else wanting him dead for his actions rather than just 20% or even 50%.

[Killer Cyborg]

Man, how about you guys quote the books on the Quebec/CS stuff?
Otherwise you all sound like you're just pulling stuff out of thin air.

[Nightmask]

That Lazlo continues to exist is authorial fiat/filibuster - in real life, it would be a wretched den of inhuman slavery and feudalistic privilege enforced by the magical Dbees against the lower classes.

I find that to be fairly realistic assessment actually.

At best the nonmagical would probably be second class citizens, even if it was just human magic users running the show. Let alone Dragons or other such magical beings that would probably view us as pawns to use in their games. It would be likely that Xeno control or oppression (or "guidance" if some of you would prefer) of humanity would be the order of the day, subvertly or overtly. If you had the skill subvertly would probably be easier, making the lower class think they're helping themselves when they're really just Xeno pawns.

Somehow I just think Xeno occupation of Terra would go down like the Spanish Conquest of the Canary Islands. I'm for a free humanity.

Sounds not even close to a fair or realistic assessment. Particularly since the CS would have ended long before Lazlo did without the author keeping it alive and successful. The people that want it dead don't do anything even when the CS leaves itself vulnerable and the CS actively goes around picking fights with people that weren't bothering it (Hello, Tolkeen! ) giving everyone who'd like to survive a REALLY good reason to want to take it out before it takes them out.

People would say similar things about the US, or any other large nation, if they read about it in a book.

Personally, I can't really see a problem with either Lazlo or Tolkeen as written, though that might only be because not a lot has been written about Lazlo.
I'd like to see a well thought-out and in-depth book that analyzes the inter-species relations in that kind of environment, but I'm not holding my breath.

Neither am I, just like I won't hold my breath waiting to see the CS wiped out as the single greatest justification for everything else on the planet to want to exterminate Humanity. Which would be so awesome btw, replace a boring invincible evil empire where it's just another day of killing and taking the land of non-humans with the broken empire, shattered, leaving a vacuum where it once existed and exploring all the consequences of that. Much better from a game and storytelling perspective than a Mary Suetopia that never has to fear reaping the consequences of its actions.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd like to see a well thought-out and in-depth book that analyzes the inter-species relations in that kind of environment, but I'm not holding my breath.

Neither am I, just like I won't hold my breath waiting to see the CS wiped out as the single greatest justification for everything else on the planet to want to exterminate Humanity. Which would be so awesome btw, replace a boring invincible evil empire where it's just another day of killing and taking the land of non-humans with the broken empire, shattered, leaving a vacuum where it once existed and exploring all the consequences of that. Much better from a game and storytelling perspective than a Mary Suetopia that never has to fear reaping the consequences of its actions.

a) If you think the CS is boring, you're using them wrong.
b) If you think the CS is a Mary Sue, you're not using the term correctly.
c) The CS is facing plenty of consequences for its actions, they're just not all immediate.
It's not like the entire planet attacked the Nazis all at once after Hitler took Poland.
Real-life people and nations don't work that way, so it shouldn't be astonishing that it doesn't happen in the game world.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Man, how about you guys quote the books on the Quebec/CS stuff?
Otherwise you all sound like you're just pulling stuff out of thin air.

Been looking for it but sadly most of the book look like they are written and edited by someone who has ADD, so it might take some time

[Giant2005]

Well I read the thread now and there is nothing that I want to address specifically, so instead I'll ask the CS enthusiasts a general question that covers my point.
As said earlier in this thread, my country of origin is New Zealand. New Zealand is a country where a significant majority of the crime is committed by a minority race. I have seen campaigns on Facebook trying to push for mass sterilization of that race as a means of protecting their own.
Is that a cause you would be happy to support?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Well I read the thread now and there is nothing that I want to address specifically, so instead I'll ask the CS enthusiasts a general question that covers my point.
As said earlier in this thread, my country of origin is New Zealand. New Zealand is a country where a significant majority of the crime is committed by a minority race. I have seen campaigns on Facebook trying to push for mass sterilization of that race as a means of protecting their own.
Is that a cause you would be happy to support?

not no but hell no

[Giant2005]

Well I read the thread now and there is nothing that I want to address specifically, so instead I'll ask the CS enthusiasts a general question that covers my point.
As said earlier in this thread, my country of origin is New Zealand. New Zealand is a country where a significant majority of the crime is committed by a minority race. I have seen campaigns on Facebook trying to push for mass sterilization of that race as a means of protecting their own.
Is that a cause you would be happy to support?

not no but hell no

Then why is it okay for the CS?
The justification for the extermination of the DBees is the same as this minority race: they are more predisposed to causing harm..
If anything, sterilization seems a whole lot more humane than mass slaughter.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Well I read the thread now and there is nothing that I want to address specifically, so instead I'll ask the CS enthusiasts a general question that covers my point.
As said earlier in this thread, my country of origin is New Zealand. New Zealand is a country where a significant majority of the crime is committed by a minority race. I have seen campaigns on Facebook trying to push for mass sterilization of that race as a means of protecting their own.
Is that a cause you would be happy to support?

not no but hell no

Then why is it okay for the CS?
The justification for the extermination of the DBees is the same as this minority race: they are more predisposed to causing harm..
If anything, sterilization seems a whole lot more humane than mass slaughter.

One it a make believe world. Two knowing your race will die out is worse then being slaughter because there is always chance for escape for a few of them

[flatline]

Neither is repeated confusion of human racism and Rifts speciesism

Rationalize all you want, but bigotry is bigotry.

--flatline

[llywelyn]

Well I read the thread now and there is nothing that I want to address specifically, so instead I'll ask the CS enthusiasts a general question that covers my point.
As said earlier in this thread, my country of origin is New Zealand. New Zealand is a country where a significant majority of the crime is committed by a minority race. I have seen campaigns on Facebook trying to push for mass sterilization of that race as a means of protecting their own.
Is that a cause you would be happy to support?

not no but hell no

Then why is it okay for the CS?
The justification for the extermination of the DBees is the same as this minority race: they are more predisposed to causing harm.. If anything, sterilization seems a whole lot more humane than mass slaughter.

It being fictional isn't really a decent dodge on the ethical questions, but to give the short versions (longer versions above and in the CS thread):

a. Human racism is loathsome because it's scientifically unsupportable. Genetically speaking, there are no human races. The genetic diversity within any commonly defined "race" far exceeds that between "races". Your community has social problem, and blaming it on 'race' is missing the reality and proposing sterilization is a moral failure.

Dbees are obviously a thing apart.

b. As mentioned above, racism is misplaced tribalism. We are wired to band into groups and fight other groups who interfere with our survival. That instinct has had some very bad consequences in the recent past (cf: Twentieth Century) where protecting the interest of our group (nations) risked eliminating the entirety of the human race. Beyond simply making America accountable for her own rhetoric, the push-back against racism and move towards a universal approach to human behavior came out of this realization: We're all in this together.

When it comes to survival, humanity is not in anything together with the Dbees in Rifts.

Unless the player characters are wantonly destroying humanity, the CS is doing just fine and has a rational (if power-hungry) leadership that will make alliances to survive if it comes to that. Which it hasn't.

c. Part of the reason the CS is doing better now than in the past is that it is actively removing the power bases of the non-human groups rather than letting them establish more. Active hostility and plans for conquest written into the fluff (e.g., Mechanoids) are so obvious even Nightmask would realize the CS should oppose them; the problem is that in the Rifts world simple family bonds and issues like gestation periods and litter size would turn even well-meaning groups into rival states that would compete (potentially successfully) with humans for resources and survival.

And humans can never share those family bonds with Dbees and unite our races.

In a realistic world of D&D, a few hundred generations would see the world filled with half-elf kingdoms. Can't happen here.

d. Magic users and some Dbees fall under the "No Personal Nuclear Weapons" clause of building societies. If there were limitations or "safe" disciplines of magic that didn't involve the potential to devastate large areas or manipulate people's minds, it might work. No such disciplines will be written, because they'd be less powerful and interesting for the PCs.

e. Approaches like Nightmask's are well-meaning and perfectly appropriate for each individual member surviving in society. I could easily see human outcasts fitting in with Dbees who treat them better than the folks back home; hell, I left America because my money goes a lot farther in other countries.

That doesn't mean such an approach scales up to the level of kingdoms and empires. They have their own morality that means peace today (we're all humans and the old racial distinctions were hokum) and war in the future (if the species were at risk from the outside).

[llywelyn]

Neither is repeated confusion of human racism and Rifts speciesism

Rationalize all you want, but bigotry is bigotry.

--flatline

.shrug.

Like I said, it would be worse if that were true: bigotry is the successful evolutionary strategy in Rifts and altruism will get you manipulated, mind-controlled, undead, betrayed, enslaved, etc, etc, etc...

Our world is one of mutual benefit. Rift's world - as currently constructed - is largely a zero-sum game. The CS is doing fine protecting humanity on its own unless the players screw that up.

The only level at which both you and Nightmask are right is that It is just a game and In the real world, racism is unjustifiable. Playing a game with justifiable racism potentially sets up a whole lot of problems.

But for better or worse that is Rifts and refusing so completely to recognize that reflects badly on your ability to manage survival and deal with other real-world problems like environmentalism and terrorism. There is a difference in kind between problems of groups within our species and problems of our species as a whole.

[flatline]

Neither is repeated confusion of human racism and Rifts speciesism

Rationalize all you want, but bigotry is bigotry.

--flatline

.shrug.

Like I said, it would be worse if that were true: bigotry is the successful evolutionary strategy in Rifts and altruism will get you manipulated, mind-controlled, undead, betrayed, enslaved, etc, etc, etc...

Our world is one of mutual benefit. Rift's world - as currently constructed - is largely a zero-sum game. The CS is doing fine protecting humanity on its own unless the players screw that up.

The only level at which both you and Nightmask are right is that It is just a game and In the real world, racism is unjustifiable. Playing a game with justifiable racism potentially sets up a whole lot of problems.

But for better or worse that is Rifts and refusing so completely to recognize that reflects badly on your ability to manage survival and deal with other real-world problems like environmentalism and terrorism. There is a difference in kind between problems of groups within our species and problems of our species as a whole.

Rifts Earth is hardly the last hope of humans to survive in the multiverse. The species is not endangered even if the CS is wiped out. And even if it were, would the game be somehow "lessened" by the lack of humans?

--flatline

[llywelyn]

I'll ask the CS enthusiasts a general question that covers my point.

For the record, I'm not a CS enthusiast and much prefer the Geofront (however asinine its name) approach of slowly and carefully studying Dbees over decades. Exile from earth is safer, but by that point you pretty much know about any new diseases and breeding rates and can find some kind of accommodation. Further, the China setting works very strongly to establish that cooperation is the best policy because most of both groups (remember, huge portions of the Dbees are there just for the fun of torturing humans) need each other to fend off the bigger threat.

But I figured I'd at least try to show some of the posters (and hopefully PB staff) how fundamentally false the racism/speciesism analogy was. It seems to have been largely a waste of time, but it'd bugged me for years, so worth a shot.

[llywelyn]

...even if it were, would the game be somehow "lessened" by the lack of humans?

--flatline

I get that that is fundamentally your and Nightmask and Rifter 28's attitude.

Assuming any level of empathy with the setting, though, I just don't understand how you can't be disgusted by yourselves. It's just that it's a game and you're mining it for real world lessons? But our world is not in a situation anything like Rifts.

[flatline]

But I figured I'd at least try to show some of the posters (and hopefully PB staff) how fundamentally false the racism/speciesism analogy was. It seems to have been largely a waste of time, but it'd bugged me for years, so worth a shot.

I'm not arguing that it isn't a viable strategy. It's just that I don't want any part of it.

--flatline

[Giant2005]

c. Part of the reason the CS is doing better now than in the past is that it is actively removing the power bases of the non-human groups rather than letting them establish more.

I don't really think this is true.
The CS has only one known enemy in North America which could pose a threat to them (There are others, but the CS doesn't know of them yet) and that is the Xiticix and they have been allowed to flourish. Instead of removing their power bases, the CS has chosen to concern themselves with those that they have never really considered a threat and let the Xiticix problem get out of control.
According to the Xiticix book, those two years that they have been left unhindered should be enough for them to conquer the country.
The CS is in the weakest position it has ever been because of their neglect in removing the power bases of those who need it and wasting their resources on those who don't matter.

Other than that little rant, how do you feel about Ogres? And how do you think the CS would feel about Ogres?
Going through all the points you made, Ogres fit the criteria of what you would accept but I am pretty sure they aren't a presence the CS would tolerate.

[llywelyn]

c. Part of the reason the CS is doing better now than in the past is that it is actively removing the power bases of the non-human groups rather than letting them establish more.

I don't really think this is true.
The CS has only one known enemy in North America which could pose a threat to them (There are others, but the CS doesn't know of them yet) and that is the Xiticix and they have been allowed to flourish. Instead of removing their power bases, the CS has chosen to concern themselves with those that they have never really considered a threat and let the Xiticix problem get out of control.
According to the Xiticix book, those two years that they have been left unhindered should be enough for them to conquer the country.
The CS is in the weakest position it has ever been because of their neglect in removing the power bases of those who need it and wasting their resources on those who don't matter.

Even assuming you're right to ignore the 3 and Lazlo (which I'd dispute), you're certainly wrong to ignore Tolkeen and to pooh-pooh CS concerns over its supply lines if it attempted to take on the Xiticix without securing the Tolkeen region first.

And, uh, that's what it did.

Other than that little rant, how do you feel about Ogres? And how do you think the CS would feel about Ogres?
Going through all the points you made, Ogres fit the criteria of what you would accept but I am pretty sure they aren't a presence the CS would tolerate.

It's been awhile since I read the Palladium RPG: can they breed with humans, such that they're some kind of subspecies? Are they magically powered? Are they one of the only evil alignment races? If the answers are yes, no, and no, I see people being originally bigotted and eventually reconciled with accepting them as a part of the human family.

If they're necessarily limited in intelligence, I'd see them being used as cannon fodder and buffer farmers like the way the Roman empire originally treated Germans settled into the Rhine frontier land.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Neither is repeated confusion of human racism and Rifts speciesism

Rationalize all you want, but bigotry is bigotry.

--flatline

.shrug.

Like I said, it would be worse if that were true: bigotry is the successful evolutionary strategy in Rifts and altruism will get you manipulated, mind-controlled, undead, betrayed, enslaved, etc, etc, etc...

Our world is one of mutual benefit. Rift's world - as currently constructed - is largely a zero-sum game. The CS is doing fine protecting humanity on its own unless the players screw that up.

The only level at which both you and Nightmask are right is that It is just a game and In the real world, racism is unjustifiable. Playing a game with justifiable racism potentially sets up a whole lot of problems.

But for better or worse that is Rifts and refusing so completely to recognize that reflects badly on your ability to manage survival and deal with other real-world problems like environmentalism and terrorism. There is a difference in kind between problems of groups within our species and problems of our species as a whole.

Rifts Earth is hardly the last hope of humans to survive in the multiverse. The species is not endangered even if the CS is wiped out. And even if it were, would the game be somehow "lessened" by the lack of humans?

--flatline

No humans on rifts earth? Well then the game would get boring real quick.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

c. Part of the reason the CS is doing better now than in the past is that it is actively removing the power bases of the non-human groups rather than letting them establish more.

I don't really think this is true.
The CS has only one known enemy in North America which could pose a threat to them (There are others, but the CS doesn't know of them yet) and that is the Xiticix and they have been allowed to flourish. Instead of removing their power bases, the CS has chosen to concern themselves with those that they have never really considered a threat and let the Xiticix problem get out of control.
According to the Xiticix book, those two years that they have been left unhindered should be enough for them to conquer the country.
The CS is in the weakest position it has ever been because of their neglect in removing the power bases of those who need it and wasting their resources on those who don't matter.

Other than that little rant, how do you feel about Ogres? And how do you think the CS would feel about Ogres?
Going through all the points you made, Ogres fit the criteria of what you would accept but I am pretty sure they aren't a presence the CS would tolerate.

yup and next year a book could come out and nil and void the Xiticix threat too. As for ogre they are too ugly for the coalition standards shot they are a threat too, along with some of the mutant humans

[Giant2005]

c. Part of the reason the CS is doing better now than in the past is that it is actively removing the power bases of the non-human groups rather than letting them establish more.

I don't really think this is true.
The CS has only one known enemy in North America which could pose a threat to them (There are others, but the CS doesn't know of them yet) and that is the Xiticix and they have been allowed to flourish. Instead of removing their power bases, the CS has chosen to concern themselves with those that they have never really considered a threat and let the Xiticix problem get out of control.
According to the Xiticix book, those two years that they have been left unhindered should be enough for them to conquer the country.
The CS is in the weakest position it has ever been because of their neglect in removing the power bases of those who need it and wasting their resources on those who don't matter.

Other than that little rant, how do you feel about Ogres? And how do you think the CS would feel about Ogres?
Going through all the points you made, Ogres fit the criteria of what you would accept but I am pretty sure they aren't a presence the CS would tolerate.

yup and next year a book could come out and nil and void the Xiticix threat too. As for ogre they are too ugly for the coalition standards shot they are a threat too, along with some of the mutant humans

I agree the Xiticix will probably get written away...
How do you think the CS would feel about Susan Boyle?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

c. Part of the reason the CS is doing better now than in the past is that it is actively removing the power bases of the non-human groups rather than letting them establish more.

I don't really think this is true.
The CS has only one known enemy in North America which could pose a threat to them (There are others, but the CS doesn't know of them yet) and that is the Xiticix and they have been allowed to flourish. Instead of removing their power bases, the CS has chosen to concern themselves with those that they have never really considered a threat and let the Xiticix problem get out of control.
According to the Xiticix book, those two years that they have been left unhindered should be enough for them to conquer the country.
The CS is in the weakest position it has ever been because of their neglect in removing the power bases of those who need it and wasting their resources on those who don't matter.

Other than that little rant, how do you feel about Ogres? And how do you think the CS would feel about Ogres?
Going through all the points you made, Ogres fit the criteria of what you would accept but I am pretty sure they aren't a presence the CS would tolerate.

yup and next year a book could come out and nil and void the Xiticix threat too. As for ogre they are too ugly for the coalition standards shot they are a threat too, along with some of the mutant humans

I agree the Xiticix will probably get written away...
How do you think the CS would feel about Susan Boyle?

One of Karl's favorite singers there

[Killer Cyborg]

Well I read the thread now and there is nothing that I want to address specifically, so instead I'll ask the CS enthusiasts a general question that covers my point.
As said earlier in this thread, my country of origin is New Zealand. New Zealand is a country where a significant majority of the crime is committed by a minority race. I have seen campaigns on Facebook trying to push for mass sterilization of that race as a means of protecting their own.
Is that a cause you would be happy to support?

Here's the thing: there is only one human race, biologically speaking. Skin color no more denotes personality than hair or eye color do.
We're all fundamentally the same.

But that's not true of the non-human races in Rifts.
Despite how some people play them, they're not all just humans who look different from each other.
They really ARE different.

From a previous post:
viewtopic.php?p=2466748#p2466748

Just look at the PFRPG races' alignments.
Elves: Any
Dwarves: Any
Gnomes: Any
Troglodytes: Any, but most tend to be good or unprincipled
Kobolds: Typically anarchist or evil
Goblins: Typically anarchist or evil
Hob-Goblins: Typically anarchist or evil
Orcs: Typically anarchist or evil
Ogres: Typically anarchist or evil
Trolls: Typically anarchist or evil.
Changeling: Any
The Wolfen: Any, but tend toward principled and aberrant. (Society is based off of the Romans, who were better than the Nazis primarily because they believed in slavery. The stated goal of the Wolfen as a species (on Palladium), is "to conquer the known world, uniting all races under one global government. Of course, that government would have to be organized, led, and enforced by Wolfenkind.")
Coyles: Any, but tend toward anarchist and miscreant.

14 races including humans.
Only ONE race is good by nature, troglodytes. I don't know their population on Rifts Earth, but their numbers are likely small, since they don't seem to have any kind of entry in either CB1 or CB1r. And even that race can have exceptions.
The next best races are the "Any" alignment catagory. There's 5 of them, including humans.
Then there's 7 races that are TYPICALLY Anarchist or outright EVIL.
Then there's the Wolfen, who are just as likely to be Principled as they are to be Aberrant, but any way you slice it, want to conquer and dominate the known world, and who are (like the CS) modeled after a brutal and warlike society.

To recap:
Of the primary races on the Palladium world, roughly 7% lean toward Good, 42% are just as likely to be good as they are evil, and 50% are actually outright Evil or Anarchist (which is just low-calorie Evil) as a norm.
So if you run into a random person from the Palladium world, there's a 71% chance that their alignment, their personal code of morality and ethics, is going to be hostile to your own.

None of which is to say that the directions that the CS leadership is taking their nation in is GOOD, or even to say that it's not EVIL.
Just to say that it's understandable.
Humans are surrounded by inhuman forces, of too many types to categorize, most of which are hostile, almost all of which are dangerous, some of which are shapechangers just to further complicate things, some of which can hijack your body or even your mind just to complicate things even further.
And humans are a species with a long history of not bothering to sort out the good from the bad among other humans that happen to have different skin colors, religions, or nationalities from our own.

Genocide is wrong, and it's evil, and it's what a lot of the non-human races on Rifts Earth would do to humans if they only got the chance.
A lot of the others would enslave us one way or another.
A lot of the rest would simply see us subjugated under their rule, second-class citizens at best.
Genocide is evil, but it's understandable- humanity's back is pressed against the wall, and the life and freedom of our species is at stake.
The Coalition is wrong in their extremism, but it's understandable, and their extremism does not mean that they're not doing our species more good than harm.

One of the things that always appealed to me about Rifts is that when you get right down to it, you have Demons on one side, Nazis on the other, and your characters have to either choose which of those sides they're on, or get caught up in the middle.

[Killer Cyborg]

c. Part of the reason the CS is doing better now than in the past is that it is actively removing the power bases of the non-human groups rather than letting them establish more.

I don't really think this is true.
The CS has only one known enemy in North America which could pose a threat to them (There are others, but the CS doesn't know of them yet) and that is the Xiticix and they have been allowed to flourish. Instead of removing their power bases, the CS has chosen to concern themselves with those that they have never really considered a threat and let the Xiticix problem get out of control.
According to the Xiticix book, those two years that they have been left unhindered should be enough for them to conquer the country.
The CS is in the weakest position it has ever been because of their neglect in removing the power bases of those who need it and wasting their resources on those who don't matter.

Well, they haven't left the bugs completely alone- they keep trying to develop weapons that will take the xiticix out, and otherwise making small moves against them.
They just haven't had any real success yet.
Their inactivity isn't due to lack of concern (though they underestimate the bugs incredibly), but more due to a lack of ability to do anything about them. The bugs are too strong and too numerous for the CS to even try to take out without a full and complete commitment by the entire CS military.
And right now, the CS is still recovering from the Tolkeen fiasco, so they simply aren't up to the job.

Of course, I fully agree that it was a very foolish move on the CS's part to invade Tolkeen, simply because that city served as something of a buffer between the CS and the bugs. They should have left Tolkeen alone, and let THEM deal with the bugs while the CS built their strength to take out both of their enemies at once.
Not that this plan wouldn't have possible problems as well.
For example, if Tolkeen found a way to control the xiticiix, then the CS would be effectively doomed.

[Nightmask]

c. Part of the reason the CS is doing better now than in the past is that it is actively removing the power bases of the non-human groups rather than letting them establish more.

I don't really think this is true.
The CS has only one known enemy in North America which could pose a threat to them (There are others, but the CS doesn't know of them yet) and that is the Xiticix and they have been allowed to flourish. Instead of removing their power bases, the CS has chosen to concern themselves with those that they have never really considered a threat and let the Xiticix problem get out of control.
According to the Xiticix book, those two years that they have been left unhindered should be enough for them to conquer the country.
The CS is in the weakest position it has ever been because of their neglect in removing the power bases of those who need it and wasting their resources on those who don't matter.

Well, they haven't left the bugs completely alone- they keep trying to develop weapons that will take the xiticix out, and otherwise making small moves against them.
They just haven't had any real success yet.
Their inactivity isn't due to lack of concern (though they underestimate the bugs incredibly), but more due to a lack of ability to do anything about them. The bugs are too strong and too numerous for the CS to even try to take out without a full and complete commitment by the entire CS military.
And right now, the CS is still recovering from the Tolkeen fiasco, so they simply aren't up to the job.

Of course, I fully agree that it was a very foolish move on the CS's part to invade Tolkeen, simply because that city served as something of a buffer between the CS and the bugs. They should have left Tolkeen alone, and let THEM deal with the bugs while the CS built their strength to take out both of their enemies at once.
Not that this plan wouldn't have possible problems as well.
For example, if Tolkeen found a way to control the xiticiix, then the CS would be effectively doomed.

That's a faulty assumption, since it holds the implication that Tolkeen would have marched the Xiticix off to destroy the CS if it had gained control over them which isn't supported by the nature of Tolkeen. It never made war on the CS and if they'd gained control over them during the war they'd have had every right to use them against the Coaltion. When someone's bent on murdering everyone in your homeland you don't generally stand back and go 'well we have a sure-fire way to ensure our survival but we're not going to use it because surviving would be wrong'.

It's also beyond stupid to go 'well we don't feel strong enough to attack the insects so we'll go and kill these guys over here instead, making sure we have even less resources available for dealing with the insects AND removing a power base that was helping somewhat contain then'. Only writer fiat has it so that the CS doesn't rightly end up completely destroyed and can be as incompetent as possible without suffering the consequences of that incompetence.

[Killer Cyborg]

c. Part of the reason the CS is doing better now than in the past is that it is actively removing the power bases of the non-human groups rather than letting them establish more.

I don't really think this is true.
The CS has only one known enemy in North America which could pose a threat to them (There are others, but the CS doesn't know of them yet) and that is the Xiticix and they have been allowed to flourish. Instead of removing their power bases, the CS has chosen to concern themselves with those that they have never really considered a threat and let the Xiticix problem get out of control.
According to the Xiticix book, those two years that they have been left unhindered should be enough for them to conquer the country.
The CS is in the weakest position it has ever been because of their neglect in removing the power bases of those who need it and wasting their resources on those who don't matter.

Well, they haven't left the bugs completely alone- they keep trying to develop weapons that will take the xiticix out, and otherwise making small moves against them.
They just haven't had any real success yet.
Their inactivity isn't due to lack of concern (though they underestimate the bugs incredibly), but more due to a lack of ability to do anything about them. The bugs are too strong and too numerous for the CS to even try to take out without a full and complete commitment by the entire CS military.
And right now, the CS is still recovering from the Tolkeen fiasco, so they simply aren't up to the job.

Of course, I fully agree that it was a very foolish move on the CS's part to invade Tolkeen, simply because that city served as something of a buffer between the CS and the bugs. They should have left Tolkeen alone, and let THEM deal with the bugs while the CS built their strength to take out both of their enemies at once.
Not that this plan wouldn't have possible problems as well.
For example, if Tolkeen found a way to control the xiticiix, then the CS would be effectively doomed.

That's a faulty assumption, since it holds the implication that Tolkeen would have marched the Xiticix off to destroy the CS if it had gained control over them which isn't supported by the nature of Tolkeen.

Not really.
All it implies is that if a nation has an unquenchable intolerance for another nation of vastly superior military strength, that that nation is doomed in the long run.
Eventually, Tolkeen would probably get tired of the CS's attacks against them, and would retaliate.
The CS might not be doomed to extinction, but best case scenario given their attitudes, they'd be doomed to living on effective reservations.

It's also beyond stupid to go 'well we don't feel strong enough to attack the insects so we'll go and kill these guys over here instead, making sure we have even less resources available for dealing with the insects AND removing a power base that was helping somewhat contain then'.

Agreed.

Only writer fiat has it so that the CS doesn't rightly end up completely destroyed and can be as incompetent as possible without suffering the consequences of that incompetence.

No, that claim doesn't represent the reality of Rifts Earth.
Other than the xiticix, there isn't any hostile power in North America that poses a real threat to the CS right now.
If you really want to argue about this yet again- and the fact that you feel the need to bring it up repeatedly in this thread indicates that you do- you might want to start a new thread on it, instead of cluttering up this thread with off-topic issues.

[Nightmask]

That's a faulty assumption, since it holds the implication that Tolkeen would have marched the Xiticix off to destroy the CS if it had gained control over them which isn't supported by the nature of Tolkeen.

Not really.
All it implies is that if a nation has an unquenchable intolerance for another nation of vastly superior military strength, that that nation is doomed in the long run.
Eventually, Tolkeen would probably get tired of the CS's attacks against them, and would retaliate.
The CS might not be doomed to extinction, but best case scenario given their attitudes, they'd be doomed to living on effective reservations.

Are we reading the same books? Because last I looked the nation with the unquenchable intolerance for another nation was the CS, and given how long the war lasted 'vastly superior military strength' doesn't constitute the CS either. Vastly superior is a curb stomp battle, vastly superior doesn't drag on especially when your policy is 'kill them all' and you don't consider anyone in the kill zone as innocent civilians to avoid killing to warrant holding back any. You also seem to state that as if Tolkeen wouldn't have a right to retaliate against a warlike nation that kept attacking it again and again.

Oh, and as far as 'all humans are identical but d-bees aren't', human beings don't even believe all humans are identical or even accept all human beings as human beings. Free Quebec goes 'hey you there, the psychic. We'll give you a wad of credits and an escort to the border if you leave and never return.' because it doesn't really feel psychics are human. The CS slaps ID chips on them to monitor them and uses them but doesn't see them as really being humans either.

You'd also have to be more than blind to insist 'all elves, dwarves, rahu men, etc look alike', or that somehow when you can't even get human beings to agree on all humans being people that it's acceptable behavior to insist 'all d-bees are the same'. Places like Tolkeen and Lazlo are/were examples of humans working together with aliens and prospering because they behaved as if everyone was a person and worked together for mutual survival and profit. The CS on the other hand simply destroys and brings nothing but negative consequences to humanity. Triax does far more for humanity than the CS ever has.

[Killer Cyborg]

That's a faulty assumption, since it holds the implication that Tolkeen would have marched the Xiticix off to destroy the CS if it had gained control over them which isn't supported by the nature of Tolkeen.

Not really.
All it implies is that if a nation has an unquenchable intolerance for another nation of vastly superior military strength, that that nation is doomed in the long run.
Eventually, Tolkeen would probably get tired of the CS's attacks against them, and would retaliate.
The CS might not be doomed to extinction, but best case scenario given their attitudes, they'd be doomed to living on effective reservations.

Are we reading the same books? Because last I looked the nation with the unquenchable intolerance for another nation was the CS,

Are we reading the same posts?
Because that's the nation that I was clearly talking about.

Oh, and as far as 'all humans are identical but d-bees aren't', human beings don't even believe all humans are identical or even accept all human beings as human beings. Free Quebec goes 'hey you there, the psychic. We'll give you a wad of credits and an escort to the border if you leave and never return.' because it doesn't really feel psychics are human. The CS slaps ID chips on them to monitor them and uses them but doesn't see them as really being humans either.

Care to quote the passage that states this is because they feel that the psychics are not human?

You'd also have to be more than blind to insist 'all elves, dwarves, rahu men, etc look alike', or that somehow when you can't even get human beings to agree on all humans being people that it's acceptable behavior to insist 'all d-bees are the same'.

Not sure what you're trying to say there.

Places like Tolkeen and Lazlo are/were examples of humans working together with aliens and prospering because they behaved as if everyone was a person and worked together for mutual survival and profit. The CS on the other hand simply destroys and brings nothing but negative consequences to humanity. Triax does far more for humanity than the CS ever has.

Places like Lazlo and Tolkeen are examples of places that lack any real description, where humans and non-humans work together, usually with supernatural creatures and mages running things, and normal humans all but unmentioned in any important capacity.
Not exactly a place of equality.

The CS does destroy, but they also do bring some positive results for humanity- they protect ordinary humans from the demons and monsters and other menaces that threaten our species.

[Jerell]

Baron of chaos, that was a well written post. I can see you point, and do not disagree. I just find llywelyn's post, while predicting a dark and gritty Lazlo, to be likely.

Sounds not even close to a fair or realistic assessment. Particularly since the CS would have ended long before Lazlo did without the author keeping it alive and successful. The people that want it dead don't do anything even when the CS leaves itself vulnerable and the CS actively goes around picking fights with people that weren't bothering it (Hello, Tolkeen! ) giving everyone who'd like to survive a REALLY good reason to want to take it out before it takes them out.

While I understand what you believe, I do not agree. To me it seems far more likely that at some point magical using D-bees or powerful supernatural creatures would exert their authority over the non-magical class, and thus most of humanity. While absolutely powerful dragons handing out rainbows and cupcakes would be great, I rather think they would dominate humanity in a heartbeat. Peacefully if they could, but if things didn't go their way, with them in charge, I believe they'd try to enslave us (non-magic using humans), or wipe us out.

As far as the CS goes, it seems like the rest of continent is afraid to take them on, and rightly so. I don't think the CS is great, but they are powerful. I think that even if someone went after the CS while they were engaged at Tolkeen, had the attackers been magic users or D-Bees, I don't believe Quebec would just stand by and watch the CS go down, even if they did have their differences around that time. Quebec wouldn't want to be the only bastion of free humanity left if they could help it, and I don't believe they would have sat back and let Xenos slaughter the CS states. I would not underestimate the human spirit in times of war.

[DhAkael]

Oh for the... IT IS A GAME
-sigh-
Never mind.
Just...no.
Forget it.

[The Baron of chaos]

Oh for the... IT IS A GAME
-sigh-
...

Yes it is, but one of this settin charme is that, over time, made one think about interesting questions..(like the nature of religion, god, and the limits of tollerance and acceptance versus sheer survival). Is quite like the Walking dead without the annoying suicidal cowboy hatted kid.

While I understand what you believe, I do not agree. To me it seems far more likely that at some point magical using D-bees or powerful supernatural creatures would exert their authority over the non-magical class, and thus most of humanity. While absolutely powerful dragons handing out rainbows and cupcakes would be great, I rather think they would dominate humanity in a heartbeat. Peacefully if they could, but if things didn't go their way, with them in charge, I believe they'd try to enslave us (non-magic using humans), or wipe us out.

Hmm is more likley that the non-magic using humans would get a hand in that, as they would end up relying way too much on magic and their supernatural protectors, in a sort of slef inflcited servilism, that had happened many times over human history(not matter how mean, cruel, indecent and sadistic you are, as long you provide safety, wrok and entertaiment people will follow you to the border of hell...only to drop you there when **** hit the fan)
This is also one of the main reason why so many people rally behind Prosek entourage. The bigotry behind Coalition , by the way, has more pragmatic reason of power than else. Old Prosek and his factions feel uncomfortable of the easy popularity the Dunscon faction got, in old times, as magic and superpowers really make it easy to get the favor of the masses. By contrast Dunscon feel menaced by the new technological re-discovery in military fields in the opposite faction. Not unlike the original conflict between the warrior caste of what would become the Samurai and the bureacratic Nobles. Eventuall this lead to the politcal figure of the Shogun(supreme general) and the Emperor being reduced to only a figure head. Now neither Dunscon nor Prosek sr. wanted to become a figurehead.

As far as the CS goes, it seems like the rest of continent is afraid to take them on, and rightly so. I don't think the CS is great, but they are powerful. I think that even if someone went after the CS while they were engaged at Tolkeen, had the attackers been magic users or D-Bees, I don't believe Quebec would just stand by and watch the CS go down, even if they did have their differences around that time. Quebec wouldn't want to be the only bastion of free humanity left if they could help it, and I don't believe they would have sat back and let Xenos slaughter the CS states. I would not underestimate the human spirit in times of war.

Well it had to be said that apart form more or less powerfull city-state, there is not so much of power block strong enough to take on Coalition, albeit all are quite able to NOT MAKE THEIR JOB EASY. They focus on defence(and since the cosmic screwup that was Tolkeen they have lot of intel to analyze and use to adapt and change their defensive tactics against Coalition) and proably many are thiking about uneasy alliances , just to contain Coalition. Win and destory Coalition? Is not in anyone mind, for now. Except perhpas in self defence, if that is ever possible. What everyone on continent is thinking is "how we are going to defend ourself so to not end up like tolkeen?". And Coalition now is dealing with a war effort that had become more costyl than planned. Tolkeen was jus tone damn city....And it took a ***** miracle to win them over. (not knowing exactly the casualties nor how much Coalitions spent on the war, we don't know the toll it took on Coalition state)

[llywelyn]

Oh for the... IT IS A GAME
-sigh-
Never mind.
Just...no.
Forget it.

But honey, someone is wrong on the Internet!

Beyond which, while small groups should generally do right by the people they meet, it takes the best conflicts in the game off the table if the CS is painted in only as the black hats. Players who think we need peace, love, and understanding - except for the CS, who needs to go - should have to address how society should operate when a tenth of the population walks around with personal nuclear weapons (magic, psionics, unlicensed power armor, &c). Of course, the players would never use their vast powers for power (pffffft) but it hardly works as a social system.

[llywelyn]

That's a faulty assumption, since it holds the implication that Tolkeen would have marched the Xiticix off to destroy the CS if it had gained control over them which isn't supported by the nature of Tolkeen. It never made war on the CS and if they'd gained control over them during the war they'd have had every right to use them against the Coaltion. When someone's bent on murdering everyone in your homeland you don't generally stand back and go 'well we have a sure-fire way to ensure our survival but we're not going to use it because surviving would be wrong'.

I know this is like arguing with a tar baby, but still:

"Tolkeen needed to worry about self-defense & had an ethical waiver for using the xiticix" was true before the war, even assuming the humans running Tolkeen have a different "nature" than the CS. (PROTIP: they don't. They didn't attack the CS because they knew they would likely lose & so built up their power as quickly as they could. The difficulty of having taken them argues for having attacked sooner, not never. That then runs into the CS's own planning and its hopes that GM experiments and robots could take the brunt of the casualties.)

[Giant2005]

Well I read the thread now and there is nothing that I want to address specifically, so instead I'll ask the CS enthusiasts a general question that covers my point.
As said earlier in this thread, my country of origin is New Zealand. New Zealand is a country where a significant majority of the crime is committed by a minority race. I have seen campaigns on Facebook trying to push for mass sterilization of that race as a means of protecting their own.
Is that a cause you would be happy to support?

Here's the thing: there is only one human race, biologically speaking. Skin color no more denotes personality than hair or eye color do.
We're all fundamentally the same.

But that's not true of the non-human races in Rifts.
Despite how some people play them, they're not all just humans who look different from each other.
They really ARE different.

From a previous post:
viewtopic.php?p=2466748#p2466748

Just look at the PFRPG races' alignments.
Elves: Any
Dwarves: Any
Gnomes: Any
Troglodytes: Any, but most tend to be good or unprincipled
Kobolds: Typically anarchist or evil
Goblins: Typically anarchist or evil
Hob-Goblins: Typically anarchist or evil
Orcs: Typically anarchist or evil
Ogres: Typically anarchist or evil
Trolls: Typically anarchist or evil.
Changeling: Any
The Wolfen: Any, but tend toward principled and aberrant. (Society is based off of the Romans, who were better than the Nazis primarily because they believed in slavery. The stated goal of the Wolfen as a species (on Palladium), is "to conquer the known world, uniting all races under one global government. Of course, that government would have to be organized, led, and enforced by Wolfenkind.")
Coyles: Any, but tend toward anarchist and miscreant.

14 races including humans.
Only ONE race is good by nature, troglodytes. I don't know their population on Rifts Earth, but their numbers are likely small, since they don't seem to have any kind of entry in either CB1 or CB1r. And even that race can have exceptions.
The next best races are the "Any" alignment catagory. There's 5 of them, including humans.
Then there's 7 races that are TYPICALLY Anarchist or outright EVIL.
Then there's the Wolfen, who are just as likely to be Principled as they are to be Aberrant, but any way you slice it, want to conquer and dominate the known world, and who are (like the CS) modeled after a brutal and warlike society.

To recap:
Of the primary races on the Palladium world, roughly 7% lean toward Good, 42% are just as likely to be good as they are evil, and 50% are actually outright Evil or Anarchist (which is just low-calorie Evil) as a norm.
So if you run into a random person from the Palladium world, there's a 71% chance that their alignment, their personal code of morality and ethics, is going to be hostile to your own.

None of which is to say that the directions that the CS leadership is taking their nation in is GOOD, or even to say that it's not EVIL.
Just to say that it's understandable.
Humans are surrounded by inhuman forces, of too many types to categorize, most of which are hostile, almost all of which are dangerous, some of which are shapechangers just to further complicate things, some of which can hijack your body or even your mind just to complicate things even further.
And humans are a species with a long history of not bothering to sort out the good from the bad among other humans that happen to have different skin colors, religions, or nationalities from our own.

Genocide is wrong, and it's evil, and it's what a lot of the non-human races on Rifts Earth would do to humans if they only got the chance.
A lot of the others would enslave us one way or another.
A lot of the rest would simply see us subjugated under their rule, second-class citizens at best.
Genocide is evil, but it's understandable- humanity's back is pressed against the wall, and the life and freedom of our species is at stake.
The Coalition is wrong in their extremism, but it's understandable, and their extremism does not mean that they're not doing our species more good than harm.

One of the things that always appealed to me about Rifts is that when you get right down to it, you have Demons on one side, Nazis on the other, and your characters have to either choose which of those sides they're on, or get caught up in the middle.

All of that is true if there is some kind of genetic disposition toward evil.
As an advocate of free-will, I am more inclined to believe that alignment is determined by a cultural disposition, not because their genetics force them down the path of evil.
If my belief is correct and their evil tendencies are a result of culture, then they are no different to humans. It may be considered racist but some human cultures really are more predisposed to being what we consider to be the lower end of the code of morality due to culture.

[Killer Cyborg]

All of that is true if there is some kind of genetic disposition toward evil.
As an advocate of free-will, I am more inclined to believe that alignment is determined by a cultural disposition, not because their genetics force them down the path of evil.

Do you feel the same way about demons?

If my belief is correct and their evil tendencies are a result of culture, then they are no different to humans. It may be considered racist but some human cultures really are more predisposed to being what we consider to be the lower end of the code of morality due to culture.

I think it's actually racial in nature, not cultural.
I'm betting that the same races in different regions, different worlds, and different dimensions are all pretty much the same if you check through the books.

If you want to work free will into the equation, just assume that the racial alignments are because of genetic predispositions, not certain fate.
A race might have a low intelligence, biological tendencies toward rage/hate, and a possessive nature, and the logical result would be that most members of that race would fall into one of the Evil alignments... but certain members of that race might choose to control their tendencies toward rage, and to go against their nature of possessiveness, and thereby become exceptions to the rule.
And isn't that what free will is all about, choosing to go against your nature?
Hard to do if you don't have natural predispositions.


Edit:
As for personal philosophy, I'm a compatibilist.

[Giant2005]

All of that is true if there is some kind of genetic disposition toward evil.
As an advocate of free-will, I am more inclined to believe that alignment is determined by a cultural disposition, not because their genetics force them down the path of evil.

Do you feel the same way about demons?

I am unsure how I feel about Demons.
The fact that there are Reformed Demons and they have to begin that process willingly suggests that Demons are capable of being good if they so choose.
On the other hand, the path of reforming eventually turns them into a human. This suggests that evil is in the blood and to be truely free of evil, they have to lose that Demonic heritage.
In conclusion, I am horribly confused by Demons...

If my belief is correct and their evil tendencies are a result of culture, then they are no different to humans. It may be considered racist but some human cultures really are more predisposed to being what we consider to be the lower end of the code of morality due to culture.

I think it's actually racial in nature, not cultural.
I'm betting that the same races in different regions, different worlds, and different dimensions are all pretty much the same if you check through the books.

If you want to work free will into the equation, just assume that the racial alignments are because of genetic predispositions, not certain fate.
A race might have a low intelligence, biological tendencies toward rage/hate, and a possessive nature, and the logical result would be that most members of that race would fall into one of the Evil alignments... but certain members of that race might choose to control their tendencies toward rage, and to go against their nature of possessiveness, and thereby become exceptions to the rule.
And isn't that what free will is all about, choosing to go against your nature?
Hard to do if you don't have natural predispositions.


Edit:
As for personal philosophy, I'm a compatibilist.[/quote]
There isn't really any valid argument that could be made either way on this aspect.
There are cases of different cultures within the same race having generally opposite alignments - the Sunaj are the first thing that spring to mind.
Although I wouldn't try to argue your point, I just brought it up to highlight that there is more than just genetics to consider. The truth is, the alignment choices are probably based off a combination of genetic and cultural disposition.

[Killer Cyborg]

I just brought it up to highlight that there is more than just genetics to consider. The truth is, the alignment choices are probably based off a combination of genetic and cultural disposition.

And I have to agree.

[llywelyn]

@All of that is true if there is some kind of genetic disposition toward evil.
You can reform the alignment system as you wish.

Personally, I completely ignore the spells and status changes that imply alignment is independent of personal action and "sticky", requiring even humans to require years of "good deeds" to undo their "nature".

@Demons?
That said, if you're not interested in preserving humanity but waging Siembieda-style jihad against the badly aligned, the demons are mostly fair game. They are written as creatures of instinct and their instincts are selfish and destructive: absolutely no chance for a good alignment. On the other hands, you should feel bad for living in Germany and attempting to exterminate the gargoyles - any of the gargoyle family, plus a few other demons like the gallu, can be unprincipled or good and must be spared. [Of course, that is based on sneaking peaks at the GM manuals. Within the game, the diabolic can quote scripture for their purposes, "sense evil" will presumably kill off the rare unprincipleds, and "mind block" and "alter aura" get in the way of any clearinghouse.]

The questionable race is the Xiticix. They are naturally selfless and good - so long as you don't care about preserving other species, they're your best bet for a well-aligned utopia of unselfish actors.

Ultimately, you get back to forming your "tribe" against their "tribes" - gargoyles go because they oppose the PC races, xiticix go because they oppose the PC races, and generally the CS goes because it opposes PC races...

The only real chase-them-all-down genocides in the game are run by or against the Mechanoids. The anti-Mech. genocides are principally assisted by... rogue Mechanoids who recognize the threat of the others and are willing to sacrifice themselves to end the risk of the others.

[The Baron of chaos]

I just brought it up to highlight that there is more than just genetics to consider. The truth is, the alignment choices are probably based off a combination of genetic and cultural disposition.

And I have to agree.

@All of that is true if there is some kind of genetic disposition toward evil.
You can reform the alignment system as you wish.

Personally, I completely ignore the spells and status changes that imply alignment is independent of personal action and "sticky", requiring even humans to require years of "good deeds" to undo their "nature".

I think is more that case to take in account the environment that lead a species to be what it is. One thing is being Omnivorous and one thing is being desecended by a carnivourous super predator, one thing is evolving in a world with few natural predators and another is having develop as species fighting giant killer super dinosaurs on regular basis, one thing is evolving more aggressive and competitive traits and another is evolving for evasion and danger avoid, add to this a human comparable intelligenc ethat lead evolution to other pathway, natural psionic, powers and magic, cultural changes and similar thing, and Alignment does not seem that easy thing. Nor is written in stone. Hell some culture could consider things to not be part of an alignment at all. Simvan is quite a good example. They are relatively primitive people. They evolved from carnivorous predator, possibly a hyena like scavenger? Aggressive primate? we never know. Their native world was likely filled with huge giant monsters, given their innater psionic power. This lead them to evolve into a pathway, that over time would have lead to a Pokemonesque society if you think about it. The fact that they do not recognize non-Simvan as true people is not that unusual, as many primitive society tend to do that, and their cannibalism is more a cultural heritage of their scavenger ancenstry, not fueled by cruelty or hunger. this means two thing. A simvan can be of good alignment(for Simvan social standards) and stilll see nothing wrong with human slaughter and devouring enemies heart afterward. Of course if there is a good thing about customs, tradition and social habits, is that they change as lot of things of living do. Crystalized society and species are doomed to being wiped out at first environmental(social, physical) change.
So yes there are few species who ar einherently "locked" into an alignment. Generally due a strong "elemental" nature. True Demons are essentially elementals of negative emotions, some embodying a negative abstract idea in physical form. They search evil for evil's sake in most case. And even so , some of them could change their way, generally at lower level there is still a chance. But is hard, and always involve becoming less "elemental" and more mortal.

[llywelyn]

their cannibalism

I know the books muff this too, but cannibal simvans eat each other. Maneater simvans eat humans.

And even so , some of them could change their way, generally at lower level there is still a chance.

The gargoyles can, without any oddity.

I might be wrong, but I recall the reformation being a thing with Chinese demons only, not necessarily something that works with the Hades & Dyval crowds. In any case, the idea of reforming demons is part of the Buddhist canon, but mixed in with the Chinese and Taoists - who figure that every demon you "save" ends up balanced by another soul somewhere else going bad to maintain the Tao.

[Killer Cyborg]

their cannibalism

I know the books muff this too, but cannibal simvans eat each other. Maneater simvans eat humans.

Originally, the term referred to any anthropophagite, and you can find references in older dictionaries and other books to man-eating animals being described as "cannibals."
It is in this sense that Palladium uses the word, which is correct, if old-fashioned.

[DhAkael]

Oh for the... IT IS A GAME
-sigh-
Never mind.
Just...no.
Forget it.

But honey, someone is wrong on the Internet!

Beyond which, while small groups should generally do right by the people they meet, it takes the best conflicts in the game off the table if the CS is painted in only as the black hats. Players who think we need peace, love, and understanding - except for the CS, who needs to go - should have to address how society should operate when a tenth of the population walks around with personal nuclear weapons (magic, psionics, unlicensed power armor, &c). Of course, the players would never use their vast powers for power (pffffft) but it hardly works as a social system.

Thank you for bringing up that XKCD
I really SHOULD have it on speed-link at all times