Are Non-human Persons?

[The Baron of chaos]

their cannibalism

I know the books muff this too, but cannibal simvans eat each other. Maneater simvans eat humans.

And even so , some of them could change their way, generally at lower level there is still a chance.

The gargoyles can, without any oddity.

I might be wrong, but I recall the reformation being a thing with Chinese demons only, not necessarily something that works with the Hades & Dyval crowds. In any case, the idea of reforming demons is part of the Buddhist canon, but mixed in with the Chinese and Taoists - who figure that every demon you "save" ends up balanced by another soul somewhere else going bad to maintain the Tao.

Religion apart, western demons can redeem too, in recent book there is the class Heroic Hellion that allow that(amongst the fiends that can now redeem, there are also the Nightlord's Hound and Houndmaster, go figure). One of the price is the loss of true immortality, albeit acertain longevity is kept. But i admit that was essentially an "Hellboy" inspired OCC...And there is nothign wrong with it.
Nonetheless they in theory always could, provided they can be of positive alignment.
As for Cannibalism, being a ritual thing, is possible that they apply to enemy Simvans too. Broadkill on other hand ate opponenets for sheer pleasure and never attack and devour fellow Broadkill(but they are not against maiming and killing them...).

[llywelyn]

Originally, the term referred to any anthropophagite

Nope. Originally the term - however un-PC its origins - referred to human anthropophages. By analogy, any homophage. People had known maneating animals for the entirety of civilization: what caught their imagination about the Caribbeans was that it was other people doing the eating.

I'm not saying people haven't misused it in the past, too: it's not what my dictionary or any online dictionary gives,* but you're probably right that they have. It remains an unhelpful misuse of the term. "Cannibal simvans" means one thing, "maneater" something else entirely.

* Best online definition: a gastronome of the old school who preserves the simple tastes and adheres to the natural diet of the pre-pork period.

[Killer Cyborg]

Originally, the term referred to any anthropophagite

Nope. Originally the term - however un-PC its origins - referred to human anthropophages. By analogy, any homophage.

lol
No, and I had already looked at that source.
If you want to talk about what it originally meant, especially using that source, then it mean people from a certain region:
"Christopher Columbus' rendition of the Caribs' name for themselves"

Obviously, it evolved from there.

[llywelyn]

Obviously, it evolved from there.

I guess if you really prefer they not just correct themselves, you could look at it as newslang: "maneater" is too cutesy, given its use for confident women, so the man-eating races coming out of the rifts got called "cannibals" to capture the revulsion and horror they inspire.

Still unhelpful.

[Killer Cyborg]

Obviously, it evolved from there.

I guess if you really prefer they not just correct themselves, you could look at it as newslang: "maneater" is too cutesy, given its use for confident women, so the man-eating races coming out of the rifts got called "cannibals" to capture the revulsion and horror they inspire.

Still unhelpful.

That's the thing- there's no real need to correct themselves, unless they want to update to modern conventional usage.
As far as I'm concerned, if the usage in question was good enough for C.H.U.D., it's good enough for Rifts.

[llywelyn]

That's the thing- there's no real need to correct themselves, unless they want to update to modern conventional usage. As far as I'm concerned, if the usage in question was good enough for C.H.U.D., it's good enough for Rifts.

Not that it is humanly possible to convince you - you're apparently as mule-headed about this as you are about Erin Tarn's itenerary - but (a) it's always been the meaning and (b) the CHUDs were human. Hence, cannibals.

Simvans ain't. Hence, not.

[The Baron of chaos]

That's the thing- there's no real need to correct themselves, unless they want to update to modern conventional usage. As far as I'm concerned, if the usage in question was good enough for C.H.U.D., it's good enough for Rifts.

Not that it is humanly possible to convince you - you're apparently as mule-headed about this as you are about Erin Tarn's itenerary - but (a) it's always been the meaning and (b) the CHUDs were human. Hence, cannibals.

Simvans ain't. Hence, not.

Well we don't know if they practice their ritual cannibalism toward their own kind. In all case, you're correct from grammar and etymological point of view.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I think I had enough of all this pro-non-human love feast going on here. It's all fun and good until you end up on the dinner.

[Nightmask]

I think I had enough of all this pro-non-human love feast going on here. It's all fun and good until you end up on the dinner.

Well if you're going to kill people just because they exist you're hardly deserving of survival anyway, you make humans look bad and give non-humans justification for killing all humans because if you're so arrogant and stupid as to go 'well you aren't human so you're free to kill no matter how good you are' then they've every reason to go 'well if some humans just want to kill us because we exist we might as well kill them all just to protect ourselves from them'. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, so if you've only yourself to blame if you set the example that it's okay to kill people as long as they aren't of your race or species. I'd be much happier with such people dead and gone and no longer giving every non-human around reason to kill me because 'hey look it's a human all humans are evil monstrous and indiscriminate killers quick kill him!'.

Humanity has enough problems without hate-filled and prejudiced sorts going around killing just to kill giving even the good aliens reason to kill humans so that it can't focus its precious energies on the ones who actually are a threat.

[Killer Cyborg]

That's the thing- there's no real need to correct themselves, unless they want to update to modern conventional usage. As far as I'm concerned, if the usage in question was good enough for C.H.U.D., it's good enough for Rifts.

Not that it is humanly possible to convince you - you're apparently as mule-headed about this as you are about Erin Tarn's itenerary - but (a) it's always been the meaning and (b) the CHUDs were human. Hence, cannibals.

Simvans ain't. Hence, not.

lol
I certainly am mule-headed in a lot of ways, I agree.
The thing is, I come to my conclusions based on the facts that I know and my understanding of those facts.
Unless those facts change, or my understanding changes in some way, I won't change my opinion because the equation remains the same.
The easiest way for somebody to get me to change my mind about something, perhaps the only way, is for them to change the facts (either by introducing new facts, or by disproving information that I have accepted as fact, or both), or by changing my understanding of the facts in question in some way.

In this case, though, I also wanted to see if you would take the prompt, and get into a discussion about CHUDs, which you did, and I am rather pleased with.
And you took the logical response to my post as well, that CHUDs were "human" in some ways, and therefore appropriate to label as cannibals.

The thing is, CHUDs were only once human- they've been mutated into something else now, which is why they're Cannibalistic Humanoid Underground Dwellers. They've mutated into a form that is no longer properly human, so would most likely only be "cannibalistic" in the sense you describe if they ate other CHUDs.
Still, I'll allow that their once-human nature would indeed make their status of humanity questionable enough that the example is negated.

Tell you what: I'm going to open up a new thread on this issue (cannibalism, not CHUDs), because it seems that there might be enough to it to provide for some interesting conversation.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I think I had enough of all this pro-non-human love feast going on here. It's all fun and good until you end up on the dinner.

Well if you're going to kill people just because they exist you're hardly deserving of survival anyway, you make humans look bad and give non-humans justification for killing all humans because if you're so arrogant and stupid as to go 'well you aren't human so you're free to kill no matter how good you are' then they've every reason to go 'well if some humans just want to kill us because we exist we might as well kill them all just to protect ourselves from them'. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, so if you've only yourself to blame if you set the example that it's okay to kill people as long as they aren't of your race or species. I'd be much happier with such people dead and gone and no longer giving every non-human around reason to kill me because 'hey look it's a human all humans are evil monstrous and indiscriminate killers quick kill him!'.

Humanity has enough problems without hate-filled and prejudiced sorts going around killing just to kill giving even the good aliens reason to kill humans so that it can't focus its precious energies on the ones who actually are a threat.

What does this have anything to do with my post?

[The Baron of chaos]

What does this have anything to do with my post?

Hmm lemme see...

I think I had enough of all this pro-non-human love feast going on here. It's all fun and good until you end up on the dinner.

Hmmm well pehrpas he took it too seriously than it should be.
But seriously both of your position are understandable. War and slaughter are never a good thing, expecially if you do not have any form of reason behind. But it is also true that some of the things that crawl outside rifts are less than friendly.

On sid enote, have you noticed that a big bulk of the D-bees,outside supernatural creatures and demons, that come through rifts are from technological less developed culture? Very few are those with a tech level equal or even superiro to that of humankind. Is kind of weird.

[Akashic Soldier]

What does this have anything to do with my post?

Hmm lemme see...

I think I had enough of all this pro-non-human love feast going on here. It's all fun and good until you end up on the dinner.

Hmmm well pehrpas he took it too seriously than it should be.
But seriously both of your position are understandable. War and slaughter are never a good thing, expecially if you do not have any form of reason behind. But it is also true that some of the things that crawl outside rifts are less than friendly.

On sid enote, have you noticed that a big bulk of the D-bees,outside supernatural creatures and demons, that come through rifts are from technological less developed culture? Very few are those with a tech level equal or even superiro to that of humankind. Is kind of weird.

This is because magical/supernatural creatures (and presumably societies) view technology as toys. (Rifts: Ultimate Edition, Magic Section)

So it's safe to assume that magical creatures never really bother developing technology as a rule of thumb. Of course there would be exceptions but generally speaking--Magic/Supernatural = No Tech.

[llywelyn]

On sid enote, have you noticed that a big bulk of the D-bees,outside supernatural creatures and demons, that come through rifts are from technological less developed culture? Very few are those with a tech level equal or even superiro to that of humankind. Is kind of weird.

All the fluff about loving Dbees is just fluff. Really, the Palladium staff knows anything with stats in a RPG book is going to be killed and robbed by the PCs.

Limiting the other races to magic OR tech allows humans and PCs to mow them down more quickly.

[Vrykolas2k]

everything we have seen about rifts earth tells me that there does not appear to be anything remotely close to any sort of resource shortage. so far as i can tell, it rains nuclear reactors from the sky on a regular basis, all sealed and ready to install into the millions of SAMAS that grow on trees.

certainly with the amount of devastation and depopulation of the human species, they no longer have enough population to claim a need for the entire earth. and with the number of enemies they face, they should absolutely ally with non-humans in protecting themselves from *real* threats, as opposed to imaginary ones.

This.

Yep.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I think I had enough of all this pro-non-human love feast going on here. It's all fun and good until you end up on the dinner.

Well if you're going to kill people just because they exist you're hardly deserving of survival anyway, you make humans look bad and give non-humans justification for killing all humans because if you're so arrogant and stupid as to go 'well you aren't human so you're free to kill no matter how good you are' then they've every reason to go 'well if some humans just want to kill us because we exist we might as well kill them all just to protect ourselves from them'. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, so if you've only yourself to blame if you set the example that it's okay to kill people as long as they aren't of your race or species. I'd be much happier with such people dead and gone and no longer giving every non-human around reason to kill me because 'hey look it's a human all humans are evil monstrous and indiscriminate killers quick kill him!'.

Humanity has enough problems without hate-filled and prejudiced sorts going around killing just to kill giving even the good aliens reason to kill humans so that it can't focus its precious energies on the ones who actually are a threat.

Too bad the non-humans might not think the same way as you.

[Vrykolas2k]

I think I had enough of all this pro-non-human love feast going on here. It's all fun and good until you end up on the dinner.

Well if you're going to kill people just because they exist you're hardly deserving of survival anyway, you make humans look bad and give non-humans justification for killing all humans because if you're so arrogant and stupid as to go 'well you aren't human so you're free to kill no matter how good you are' then they've every reason to go 'well if some humans just want to kill us because we exist we might as well kill them all just to protect ourselves from them'. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, so if you've only yourself to blame if you set the example that it's okay to kill people as long as they aren't of your race or species. I'd be much happier with such people dead and gone and no longer giving every non-human around reason to kill me because 'hey look it's a human all humans are evil monstrous and indiscriminate killers quick kill him!'.

Humanity has enough problems without hate-filled and prejudiced sorts going around killing just to kill giving even the good aliens reason to kill humans so that it can't focus its precious energies on the ones who actually are a threat.

Too bad the non-humans might not think the same way as you.

But then again. many as written do... and if not being made into dinner is your qualifier, I can suggest several places on the modern earth you may wish to avoid. Cannibals do still exist.

[Nightmask]

I think I had enough of all this pro-non-human love feast going on here. It's all fun and good until you end up on the dinner.

Well if you're going to kill people just because they exist you're hardly deserving of survival anyway, you make humans look bad and give non-humans justification for killing all humans because if you're so arrogant and stupid as to go 'well you aren't human so you're free to kill no matter how good you are' then they've every reason to go 'well if some humans just want to kill us because we exist we might as well kill them all just to protect ourselves from them'. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, so if you've only yourself to blame if you set the example that it's okay to kill people as long as they aren't of your race or species. I'd be much happier with such people dead and gone and no longer giving every non-human around reason to kill me because 'hey look it's a human all humans are evil monstrous and indiscriminate killers quick kill him!'.

Humanity has enough problems without hate-filled and prejudiced sorts going around killing just to kill giving even the good aliens reason to kill humans so that it can't focus its precious energies on the ones who actually are a threat.

Too bad the non-humans might not think the same way as you.

But then again. many as written do... and if not being made into dinner is your qualifier, I can suggest several places on the modern earth you may wish to avoid. Cannibals do still exist.

Which is pretty much what it comes down to, the ones who are an implacable threat it won't matter what you do, but the ones who'd be neutral or even help you on the other hand you'd be a fool to go and antagonize them making them into yet another threat to deal with. If you really are on about the survival of your species (and seriously most people don't even begin to think like that) then you don't go out borrowing trouble, you deal with the actual trouble only instead of doubling, tripling, or worse your problems.

[flatline]

I think I had enough of all this pro-non-human love feast going on here. It's all fun and good until you end up on the dinner.

Well if you're going to kill people just because they exist you're hardly deserving of survival anyway, you make humans look bad and give non-humans justification for killing all humans because if you're so arrogant and stupid as to go 'well you aren't human so you're free to kill no matter how good you are' then they've every reason to go 'well if some humans just want to kill us because we exist we might as well kill them all just to protect ourselves from them'. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, so if you've only yourself to blame if you set the example that it's okay to kill people as long as they aren't of your race or species. I'd be much happier with such people dead and gone and no longer giving every non-human around reason to kill me because 'hey look it's a human all humans are evil monstrous and indiscriminate killers quick kill him!'.

Humanity has enough problems without hate-filled and prejudiced sorts going around killing just to kill giving even the good aliens reason to kill humans so that it can't focus its precious energies on the ones who actually are a threat.

Too bad the non-humans might not think the same way as you.

But then again. many as written do... and if not being made into dinner is your qualifier, I can suggest several places on the modern earth you may wish to avoid. Cannibals do still exist.

Which is pretty much what it comes down to, the ones who are an implacable threat it won't matter what you do, but the ones who'd be neutral or even help you on the other hand you'd be a fool to go and antagonize them making them into yet another threat to deal with. If you really are on about the survival of your species (and seriously most people don't even begin to think like that) then you don't go out borrowing trouble, you deal with the actual trouble only instead of doubling, tripling, or worse your problems.

It's curious that some people think that the CS's policy is acceptable and even defensible. If a party of player characters followed the same policy, I'm quite certain they would condemned.

--flatline

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I'll just look at the mankind' history on how this will play out.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's curious that some people think that the CS's policy is acceptable and even defensible. If a party of player characters followed the same policy, I'm quite certain they would condemned.

I don't know if it's defensible or acceptable, only understandable and possibly necessary.
All things being equal, I'd prefer a strong human government that accepted D-bees and other nonhumans, as well as mages and such.
But I'd also prefer a dictatorial, Nazi-like human government over an alien government where I'd be condemned to be a third-class citizen or worse.

It's kind of like what happened when I was watching American History X, and I got to the scene where the black gang and the skinheads played basketball for rights to the area.
As far as I'm concerned, they're all bad people, pretty much equally.
But I found myself rooting for the team that looked more like I do.
Pack associations are an odd thing.
But they're also a survival trait- people without any, died off.

With the Coalition, you have an evil government ruling an average-to-good aligned people. They do some bad deeds to get the job done, and some of these deeds are outright counterproductive in addition to being evil.
On one hand, there's quite obviously a lot of bad stuff going on.
On the other hand, they're responsible for the strong human presence on Rifts Earth, in North America at least.
As a consequence of the Coalition's protection, there are more humans than any other sentient species (with the exception of the Xiticix, who make the Coalition look non-racist and relatively peaceful by comparison).
As a human, I'm glad for that.

On the other hand, you have places like Lazlo.
ALL creatures are welcome, so a human might well find himself sitting at a table where the other inhabitants see him as lunch.
ALL philosophies are discussed, which would include the philosophy of "Dragons should get to eat humans every once in a while, as they are superior, and humans are tasty."

RUE 21
As of 100 PA, nearly 1 million people lived in Lazlo, with another 250k in the surrounding area.
Currently, it's at 2,025,000 people, with as many as 360,000 in the surrounding communities, due in a large part to the CS's activities driving people to join Tolkeen and its territory.

Think about the numbers for a bit.
Because the CS has alienated a lot of people (of all races) via its actions (like the attack on Tolkeen), the population of Lazlo has nearly doubled, and it's STILL less than the number of humans living in the Burbs, by more than half a million.
And that's just the Chi-Town Burbs, mind you- the people living in the slums outside of ONE CS city (albeit the most populated one).
Say what you want about the benefits of being friendly to non-humans, the numbers demonstrate that the Coalition's tactics (evil or not) seem to be working fairly well in comparison to places like Lazlo.

Moreover, look at who leads Lazlo:
A cyberknight named Thomm, who may or may not be human.
An ancient dragon named Plato. Call me strange, but I don't think that any ancient dragon, no matter what alignment, could ever see a human being as an equal.
Arl Xzyn, apparently a Wolfen, a race that is generally dedicated to world domination, and modeled after a society roughly as brutal as the Coaltion's models.

And a mix of humans (probably mostly mages) and non-humans (who may or may not consider human beings to be on their menu one way or another, and most likely will not consider humans to truly be their equal).

I'm not about dominance- I'd rather people get along as equals.
But if it comes down to the wire, and in a post-apocalyptic setting where paranoia is justified and demons and monsters roam the Earth, if it comes down to somebody being on top, I'm in favor of it being humanity.
That doesn't make it right, only preferable.

For those in the "Why can't humans just live in peace?" camp, just imagine if suddenly THIS world were rearranged, so that people from all parts of the world were present in large numbers in all parts of the world.
What do you think that would be like? Think we'd all just get along?
Personally, I think it would be utter and lethal chaos.
And that's just humans trying to deal with other humans that have relatively minor differences.
Add in mind-warpers, life-stealers, blood-drinkers, flesh-eaters, and lord knows what else, especially with a large number of beings that can disguise and/or hide themselves, and it would be a thousand times worse.

[Vrykolas2k]

Then again, if the CS was actually mankind's saviour, the humans in the 'Burbs would be defacto members.
The "Burbs would then be just that.

[Killer Cyborg]

Then again, if the CS was actually mankind's saviour, the humans in the 'Burbs would be defacto members.
The "Burbs would then be just that.

They're alive- that's a start.
Integration can come later.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Then again, if the CS was actually mankind's saviour, the humans in the 'Burbs would be defacto members.
The "Burbs would then be just that.

Then again if the new navy , republicans , geofront , lazlo or the other joke guys were actually doing something, anything , maybe they do something that might actually matter. 300 years of sitting with their thumb somewhere, at least the CS is doing something.

[flatline]

Doing the wrong thing is worse than doing nothing at all.

Just sayin'...

--flatline

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Doing the wrong thing is worse than doing nothing at all.

Just sayin'...

--flatline

Well something is better then nothing

[Vrykolas2k]

Then again, if the CS was actually mankind's saviour, the humans in the 'Burbs would be defacto members.
The "Burbs would then be just that.

They're alive- that's a start.
Integration can come later.

Yes, but there's the problem that the CS goes out of its way to recruit towns that may/ may not want to join (if not then they're made to), while you have all of those would-be citizens right there.

[flatline]

Doing the wrong thing is worse than doing nothing at all.

Just sayin'...

--flatline

Well something is better then nothing

Sometimes, but not always.

For instance, some cancer is not better than no cancer.

Or a more topical example, some intolerance is not better than no intolerance.

--flatline

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Doing the wrong thing is worse than doing nothing at all.

Just sayin'...

--flatline

Well something is better then nothing

Sometimes, but not always.

For instance, some cancer is not better than no cancer.

Or a more topical example, some intolerance is not better than no intolerance.

--flatline

CS takes care of its citizens and the burbs is still better place then most pLaces on rifts earth

[Vrykolas2k]

Doing the wrong thing is worse than doing nothing at all.

Just sayin'...

--flatline

Well something is better then nothing

Sometimes, but not always.

For instance, some cancer is not better than no cancer.

Or a more topical example, some intolerance is not better than no intolerance.

--flatline

CS takes care of its citizens and the burbs is still better place then most pLaces on rifts earth

Problem is, the CS takes care of its people about the same as the mob.
And the 'Burbs being better is purely by happenstance.

[DhAkael]

People are still arguing this thread? 0_o

[Killer Cyborg]

Then again, if the CS was actually mankind's saviour, the humans in the 'Burbs would be defacto members.
The "Burbs would then be just that.

They're alive- that's a start.
Integration can come later.

Yes, but there's the problem that the CS goes out of its way to recruit towns that may/ may not want to join (if not then they're made to), while you have all of those would-be citizens right there.

When the CS goes after a town, it's not because they need more unskilled, but rather more skilled workers and industrial infrastructure, not to mention resources.

Really, though, I agree that the CS could likely expand their territory and give settling rights to the Burbites or something to disperse the crowd a bit, and to populate their new territories.

[llywelyn]

Then again, if the CS was actually mankind's saviour, the humans in the 'Burbs would be defacto members.

Ok, I'll bite.

What're y'going on about? The Burbs already *are* part of the CS, as fully integrated into their territory as is humanly possible without allowing them to camp on top of the arcology roof.

Citizenship is rights and conferring it doesn't grant the CS anything they don't already get by having the Burbs out there: manpower, tax money... (tries to think of anything else important to a gov't...)

When the CS goes after a town, it's not because they need more unskilled, but rather more skilled workers and industrial infrastructure, not to mention resources.

And turning potential enemies into allies or establishing that the potential enemies are actual enemies and getting them out of the way quickly.

Really, though, I agree that the CS could likely expand their territory and give settling rights to the Burbites or something to disperse the crowd a bit, and to populate their new territories.

A homesteading act might be just the thing for Minnesota, though it would bring the Xiticix problem to the fore much faster.

[The Baron of chaos]

Doing the wrong thing is worse than doing nothing at all.

Just sayin'...

--flatline

Well something is better then nothing

Sometimes, but not always.

For instance, some cancer is not better than no cancer.

Or a more topical example, some intolerance is not better than no intolerance.

--flatline

CS takes care of its citizens and the burbs is still better place then most pLaces on rifts earth

Problem is, the CS takes care of its people about the same as the mob.
And the 'Burbs being better is purely by happenstance.

And "better" is a BIG word considering the regular blitz coalition does in them.
But really the grim aspect of Rifts Earth is embodied by Coalition whose behaviour is understandable, albeit not justifiable as there are things that simply cannot be justified.
And oddly this is based on fears that exist simply because most D-bees are quite as humans in the most basic things, emotions and desires. Is funny if one thing about. If there was only beast and animals form Rifts fear won't be as accentuated, while in case of truly alien thing the detachment would have made most of the fear Coalition evoke silly, while in case of demons and undeads..well pretty much anyone in megaverse agree that they suck. But for D-bees, well they share enough with humans to be perceived a dangerous competitor(the fact that some of them look hard to distinguish from demons to the untrained eye just make the Coalition's propaganda job easier)
But in the end is a politic that on long range won't pay. it just create lot of enemies and strange bedfellows. And before you bring Tolkeen example as an enemy that Coalition can take, Tolkeen just got unlucky and Coalition just got absurdely lucky(to the point on could suspect they have some "guardian angels". And i'm not talking just about vanguard.)

[Vrykolas2k]

Then again, if the CS was actually mankind's saviour, the humans in the 'Burbs would be defacto members.

Ok, I'll bite.

What're y'going on about? The Burbs already *are* part of the CS, as fully integrated into their territory as is humanly possible without allowing them to camp on top of the arcology roof.

Citizenship is rights and conferring it doesn't grant the CS anything they don't already get by having the Burbs out there: manpower, tax money... (tries to think of anything else important to a gov't...)

When the CS goes after a town, it's not because they need more unskilled, but rather more skilled workers and industrial infrastructure, not to mention resources.

And turning potential enemies into allies or establishing that the potential enemies are actual enemies and getting them out of the way quickly.

Really, though, I agree that the CS could likely expand their territory and give settling rights to the Burbites or something to disperse the crowd a bit, and to populate their new territories.

A homesteading act might be just the thing for Minnesota, though it would bring the Xiticix problem to the fore much faster.

Not getting your home bulldozed from time to time just because the CS says so, and so on...

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Then again, if the CS was actually mankind's saviour, the humans in the 'Burbs would be defacto members.

Ok, I'll bite.

What're y'going on about? The Burbs already *are* part of the CS, as fully integrated into their territory as is humanly possible without allowing them to camp on top of the arcology roof.

Citizenship is rights and conferring it doesn't grant the CS anything they don't already get by having the Burbs out there: manpower, tax money... (tries to think of anything else important to a gov't...)

When the CS goes after a town, it's not because they need more unskilled, but rather more skilled workers and industrial infrastructure, not to mention resources.

And turning potential enemies into allies or establishing that the potential enemies are actual enemies and getting them out of the way quickly.

Really, though, I agree that the CS could likely expand their territory and give settling rights to the Burbites or something to disperse the crowd a bit, and to populate their new territories.

A homesteading act might be just the thing for Minnesota, though it would bring the Xiticix problem to the fore much faster.

Not getting your home bulldozed from time to time just because the CS says so, and so on...

Oh boo-hoo, they are trying to build a new world, no non human allowed (well CS mutant animals are allowed).

[llywelyn]

Then again, if the CS was actually mankind's saviour, the humans in the 'Burbs would be defacto members.

Ok, I'll bite.

What're y'going on about? The Burbs already *are* part of the CS, as fully integrated into their territory as is humanly possible without allowing them to camp on top of the arcology roof.

Not getting your home bulldozed from time to time just because the CS says so, and so on...

Still not seeing it.

The original post was about how adding the 'Burbites as citizens would benefit the CS and/or humanity, not how having more rights would gee golly be nicer for them. That goes without saying and is also beside the point.

As a side issue, I'll also note that the 'Burbites have no property rights as a matter of law and choose to live there anyway. I get that some passages read like the Israeli/Palestinian situation, but it's another badly misleading analogy. The 'Burbites aren't dispossessed Champagne-Urbana natives: they moved there because they felt even living in the CS's shadow is an improvement on living in the wilds the CS hasn't yet tamed.

[cornholioprime]

everything we have seen about rifts earth tells me that there does not appear to be anything remotely close to any sort of resource shortage. so far as i can tell, it rains nuclear reactors from the sky on a regular basis, all sealed and ready to install into the millions of SAMAS that grow on trees.

Sorry that I came to this Thread so late.


Damn, but I really needed the laugh you gave me just now.

Thanks.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Then again, if the CS was actually mankind's saviour, the humans in the 'Burbs would be defacto members.

Ok, I'll bite.

What're y'going on about? The Burbs already *are* part of the CS, as fully integrated into their territory as is humanly possible without allowing them to camp on top of the arcology roof.

Not getting your home bulldozed from time to time just because the CS says so, and so on...

Still not seeing it.

The original post was about how adding the 'Burbites as citizens would benefit the CS and/or humanity, not how having more rights would gee golly be nicer for them. That goes without saying and is also beside the point.

As a side issue, I'll also note that the 'Burbites have no property rights as a matter of law and choose to live there anyway. I get that some passages read like the Israeli/Palestinian situation, but it's another badly misleading analogy. The 'Burbites aren't dispossessed Champagne-Urbana natives: they moved there because they felt even living in the CS's shadow is an improvement on living in the wilds the CS hasn't yet tamed.

sometimes i think people think the burbs is actually sesame street, and Karl is the kindly shop owner who helps the people with their problems.

[Vrykolas2k]

Then again, if the CS was actually mankind's saviour, the humans in the 'Burbs would be defacto members.

Ok, I'll bite.

What're y'going on about? The Burbs already *are* part of the CS, as fully integrated into their territory as is humanly possible without allowing them to camp on top of the arcology roof.

Not getting your home bulldozed from time to time just because the CS says so, and so on...

Still not seeing it.

The original post was about how adding the 'Burbites as citizens would benefit the CS and/or humanity, not how having more rights would gee golly be nicer for them. That goes without saying and is also beside the point.

As a side issue, I'll also note that the 'Burbites have no property rights as a matter of law and choose to live there anyway. I get that some passages read like the Israeli/Palestinian situation, but it's another badly misleading analogy. The 'Burbites aren't dispossessed Champagne-Urbana natives: they moved there because they felt even living in the CS's shadow is an improvement on living in the wilds the CS hasn't yet tamed.

And my point is, if the 'Burbites were citizens, their homes maybe wouldn't be getting bulldozed... in theory anyway.
You have all of these humans, you're supposed to be the defenders of humanity, yet there they sit, non citizens, who want to be citizens... unlike the communities who may not even want to join the CS but are made to.

[Nightmask]

And my point is, if the 'Burbites were citizens, their homes maybe wouldn't be getting bulldozed... in theory anyway.
You have all of these humans, you're supposed to be the defenders of humanity, yet there they sit, non citizens, who want to be citizens... unlike the communities who may not even want to join the CS but are made to.

Seems like the CS keeps the Burbs around purely as bait, the humans are there just to attract the evil D-bees and the CS then goes in and kills them all when the whim strikes or seems like it so they can kill a bunch of non-humans and mages. The Evil Empire sees them as just as non-human as actual non-humans so uses them as throwaways for the 'greatness' of the Empire and is 'grateful' for their sacrifice that they never actually get to make a choice about.

[llywelyn]

And my point is, if the 'Burbites were citizens, their homes maybe wouldn't be getting bulldozed... in theory anyway. You have all of these humans, you're supposed to be the defenders of humanity, yet there they sit, non citizens, who want to be citizens... unlike the communities who may not even want to join the CS but are made to.

EDIT: Continue not to see[] it. [dammit - been in China too long ]

The ones who are actual non-magic, non-mutie, non-psi humans with any skills to bring to the table are processed, presumably as quickly as the bureaucracy and/or living quarters allow. The others are too dangerous to let in and live in the town's protective shade by the CS's sufferance alone and everyone living there already knows that.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Then again, if the CS was actually mankind's saviour, the humans in the 'Burbs would be defacto members.

Ok, I'll bite.

What're y'going on about? The Burbs already *are* part of the CS, as fully integrated into their territory as is humanly possible without allowing them to camp on top of the arcology roof.

Not getting your home bulldozed from time to time just because the CS says so, and so on...

Still not seeing it.

The original post was about how adding the 'Burbites as citizens would benefit the CS and/or humanity, not how having more rights would gee golly be nicer for them. That goes without saying and is also beside the point.

As a side issue, I'll also note that the 'Burbites have no property rights as a matter of law and choose to live there anyway. I get that some passages read like the Israeli/Palestinian situation, but it's another badly misleading analogy. The 'Burbites aren't dispossessed Champagne-Urbana natives: they moved there because they felt even living in the CS's shadow is an improvement on living in the wilds the CS hasn't yet tamed.

And my point is, if the 'Burbites were citizens, their homes maybe wouldn't be getting bulldozed... in theory anyway.
You have all of these humans, you're supposed to be the defenders of humanity, yet there they sit, non citizens, who want to be citizens... unlike the communities who may not even want to join the CS but are made to.

Well for the most part , they do patrols but even that has its limits, that is why in the older parts of the burbs have a private police force, sure it may not mean much, but CS seems to watch out for some of the burbs mostly because their families live there until they can get into the cities.

[The Baron of chaos]

And my point is, if the 'Burbites were citizens, their homes maybe wouldn't be getting bulldozed... in theory anyway. You have all of these humans, you're supposed to be the defenders of humanity, yet there they sit, non citizens, who want to be citizens... unlike the communities who may not even want to join the CS but are made to.

Continue not to seeing it.

The ones who are actual non-magic, non-mutie, non-psi humans with any skills to bring to the table are processed, presumably as quickly as the bureaucracy and/or living quarters allow. The others are too dangerous to let in and live in the town's protective shade by the CS's sufferance alone and everyone living there already knows that.

CS behaviour toward the burbs is exemplar of how non-nice they are. But is hardly a surprise. The world of Rifts is not an eays soil for a democratic and civil society as we meant it. Rifts Earth societies are more "medieval", with opportune differences, in this sense. Burbs are tollerated as nice source of cheap grunts, and replenish of fallen humans. They have some positive side. The regular bullodzing and killing spree is just to remind them who is the one in command here.
For the rest is much like you said. And while understandable, is blatantly unjust on many levels(understadn why someone do something, does not means you have to like it.)
And yet the original point of this thread was if D-bees deserved or not to be recognized the status of person. And seem that is a matter of fact, as if they weren't persons the entire system based on fear by Coalition won't stand that much. After all is because they are so similar to human and yet so different that Coalition could paint all non human beings as dmeonic monsters. Yes some are objectively dangerous but not so more by anything else.
Most humans on general would like ot join coalition as it seem one of the best faring and wealthiest human community. albeit one could argue that they got quite lucky so far(and i doubt anyone would object about this)

[Killer Cyborg]

The world of Rifts is not an easy soil for a democratic and civil society

Well said.

[llywelyn]

The world of Rifts is not an eays soil for a democratic and civil society as we meant it.

Quite.

And yet the original point of this thread was if D-bees deserved or not to be recognized the status of person.

Most of the pushback against Mr. Siembieda and some of the forumites' heavy-handed answer to that question is that there are two ways of looking at it.

Do they deserve to be looked at as moral agents in a metaphysical sense?
Unequivocally, yes. They're written that way, and the CS does in fact take them at their word that they are intelligent & love their families & therefore represent a threat. On the other hand, many "demons" and "monsters" Mr. Siembieda would love for players to vanquish and genocidally erase from the earth fit those criteria equally well. In the Mechanoids' case, he even has scripted "heroes" who did in fact attempt such a genocide.

Do they deserve to be accorded equal rights in human societies?
There's the rub.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Man, how about you guys quote the books on the Quebec/CS stuff?
Otherwise you all sound like you're just pulling stuff out of thin air.

Back to the statement I made in march
Rifts aftermath page 61
Under d-bees in free Quebec

in fact,the idea of purges and many other strategies and tactics used by chi-town were a page taken out of free quebec's handbook for dealing with non-humans

So I found it and people wonder why some ask for pages and quotes, but there is a reason behind it.