Combating Muchkinism Preconception

[Killer Cyborg]

I can see it now...

Player 1: I wanna play a glitterboy pilot!
GM: excellent choice!
Player 2: I wanna play a True Atlantean Vagabond!
GM: No way! If I let you be a True Atlantean Vagabond, then nobody would ever want to play a regular human vagabond.

--flatline

Then you're seeing it wrong.

The time that there would be a potential issue is when you have a party with one human vagabond and one Atlantean vagabond.

You get more disparity with the guy in the SAMAS vs the Glitter Boy Pilot, the GB is way tougher and more powerful yet somehow they manage it just fine. It really shouldn't be an issue.

You're not getting it, so I'll try to explain once more.
An Atlantean character can literally do everything that a human equivalent character can do, PLUS more.
That's the issue.
Make a human character, make an identical Atlantean character, and they won't be identical- the human will fall short every time.

Which is not the same thing as a SAMAS and a GB: neither one can do everything that the other can do.
Either one has the advantage over the other, depending on the situation.
A human never has the advantage over an "identical" Atlantean, unless he's trying to enter Chi-Town and gets sniffed out by the dogpacks.

[Nightmask]

You get more disparity with the guy in the SAMAS vs the Glitter Boy Pilot, the GB is way tougher and more powerful yet somehow they manage it just fine. It really shouldn't be an issue.

You're not getting it, so I'll try to explain once more.
An Atlantean character can literally do everything that a human equivalent character can do, PLUS more.
That's the issue.
Make a human character, make an identical Atlantean character, and they won't be identical- the human will fall short every time.

Which is not the same thing as a SAMAS and a GB: neither one can do everything that the other can do.
Either one has the advantage over the other, depending on the situation.
A human never has the advantage over an "identical" Atlantean, unless he's trying to enter Chi-Town and gets sniffed out by the dogpacks.

I get it just fine, I think you're just not getting that you're making way too much of a deal over the differences between the normal human and the Atlantean. You speak as if it were the difference between an ant and a lion rather than human and marginally better human for whom much of what makes him better isn't even going to qualify as contributing anything to him (no pyramids means NONE of the pyramid abilities matter, not a spell-caster and the marginally better PPE recovery rate doesn't matter, and ready availability of Ley Lines and Nexus Points means the human and Atlantean spellcasters can fully recharge at the same rate).

Really, the insistence that 'oh no no one would play a human if he can play an Atlantean instead!' just doesn't hold water. I don't find any appeal to them and certainly wouldn't pick one because 'wow look at these marginally better abilities they have over a human!' either. The only reason I'd even consider it is if there was an OCC I found nice that I could only get by picking an Atlantean. I'm certainly not the only one who isn't interested in playing an Atlantean or finds the insistence about them being 'too powerful' compared to humans to be overdone and over-inflating their abilities well beyond their actual value.

[Killer Cyborg]

You get more disparity with the guy in the SAMAS vs the Glitter Boy Pilot, the GB is way tougher and more powerful yet somehow they manage it just fine. It really shouldn't be an issue.

You're not getting it, so I'll try to explain once more.
An Atlantean character can literally do everything that a human equivalent character can do, PLUS more.
That's the issue.
Make a human character, make an identical Atlantean character, and they won't be identical- the human will fall short every time.

Which is not the same thing as a SAMAS and a GB: neither one can do everything that the other can do.
Either one has the advantage over the other, depending on the situation.
A human never has the advantage over an "identical" Atlantean, unless he's trying to enter Chi-Town and gets sniffed out by the dogpacks.

I get it just fine, I think you're just not getting that you're making way too much of a deal over the differences between the normal human and the Atlantean. You speak as if it were the difference between an ant and a lion rather than human and marginally better human for whom much of what makes him better isn't even going to qualify as contributing anything to him

So, to you,
"In short, they have all the advantages that humans have, plus a bit more.
In a party of dragons, that's no big deal.
In a party of humans, it can be."
sounds like the difference between an ant and a lion?

Because it certainly doesn't sound like that to me.

Really, the insistence that 'oh no no one would play a human if he can play an Atlantean instead!' just doesn't hold water.

Agreed.
Which is why I never made that argument.
Which is why I've tried several times to clarify what argument I have made, since you keep arguing against something that nobody here has said.
I figured you were confused.

[Nightmask]

People play the human vagabond for the same reason they spend as much time playing human fighters instead of elven fighters in AD&D, because they aren't playing it for extra perks or game stats but because what a human brings that the elf doesn't. Last AD&D game I played we had two human fighters (I was one of them, dual classed as a mage second) and one elf fighter, and the guy playing the elf was clearly playing it not for any extras it had over humans but because he wanted to play the arrogant elf stereotype.

What the heck edition of AD&D are you playing...?

It was a 2nd Edition game.

[Nightmask]

You get more disparity with the guy in the SAMAS vs the Glitter Boy Pilot, the GB is way tougher and more powerful yet somehow they manage it just fine. It really shouldn't be an issue.

You're not getting it, so I'll try to explain once more.
An Atlantean character can literally do everything that a human equivalent character can do, PLUS more.
That's the issue.
Make a human character, make an identical Atlantean character, and they won't be identical- the human will fall short every time.

Which is not the same thing as a SAMAS and a GB: neither one can do everything that the other can do.
Either one has the advantage over the other, depending on the situation.
A human never has the advantage over an "identical" Atlantean, unless he's trying to enter Chi-Town and gets sniffed out by the dogpacks.

I get it just fine, I think you're just not getting that you're making way too much of a deal over the differences between the normal human and the Atlantean. You speak as if it were the difference between an ant and a lion rather than human and marginally better human for whom much of what makes him better isn't even going to qualify as contributing anything to him

So, to you,
"In short, they have all the advantages that humans have, plus a bit more.
In a party of dragons, that's no big deal.
In a party of humans, it can be."
sounds like the difference between an ant and a lion?

Because it certainly doesn't sound like that to me.

Well if you want to keep making mountains out of ant hills that's your prerogative but Atlanteans aren't superior supermen against whom humans cannot measure up against. Slightly better odds of rolling above average stats doesn't constitute a big deal, a few extra languages again not a big deal, none of it is a big deal when you look at the differences objectively and realistically. They certainly aren't such a big deal that they'd give some awesome advantage over picking a normal human.

Really, the insistence that 'oh no no one would play a human if he can play an Atlantean instead!' just doesn't hold water.

Agreed.
Which is why I never made that argument.
Which is why I've tried several times to clarify what argument I have made, since you keep arguing against something that nobody here has said.
I figured you were confused.

You said 'why would someone buy car A when car B has all the same features as B and more for the same price', so where in that are you NOT arguing that no one would play the human when he can get everything a human gets plus more by choosing an Atlantean? Doesn't look like I'm the one confused, maybe you should reread your posts.

This even though the longevity doesn't count for anything in the game unless you're a Juicer or playing in a game that actually lasts for 30+ or more game years. The increased PPE recovery isn't significantly beyond what a human has. The dice rolls for stats only give a slightly better chance at better stats than a human on average but with how the rules are set up humans and Atlanteans would max at 30 so again the Atlantean doesn't have it all over a human on this point either. The extra languages not even close to mattering as a point of being better than a human, the Pyramid abilities again as noted repeatedly worthless without a pyramid around to make use of. So an Atlantean really doesn't have anything significant about it at all to treat it as anything special.

[flatline]

Atlanteans also can't be physically transformed which can be a BIG disadvantage, especially if the GM has a very broad idea of what qualifies as a transformation. But even with the most lenient GM, that rules out any metamorphosis spells.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

So, to you,
"In short, they have all the advantages that humans have, plus a bit more.
In a party of dragons, that's no big deal.
In a party of humans, it can be."
sounds like the difference between an ant and a lion?

Because it certainly doesn't sound like that to me.

Well if you want to keep making mountains out of ant hills that's your prerogative but Atlanteans aren't superior supermen against whom humans cannot measure up against.

You're the one making a big deal out of things, acting like I'm saying something radical or out of line when I point out that Atlanteans are superior to humans, without disadvantages to offset things.

Really, the insistence that 'oh no no one would play a human if he can play an Atlantean instead!' just doesn't hold water.

Agreed.
Which is why I never made that argument.
Which is why I've tried several times to clarify what argument I have made, since you keep arguing against something that nobody here has said.
I figured you were confused.

You said 'why would someone buy car A when car B has all the same features as B and more for the same price', so where in that are you NOT arguing that no one would play the human when he can get everything a human gets plus more by choosing an Atlantean?

Yes, I did say that.
I'm guessing that you've never bought a car for personality, sentimentality or other reasons other than straight stats?

Doesn't look like I'm the one confused, maybe you should reread your posts.

Still looks like it from here.
Maybe you should reread my posts.

This even though the longevity doesn't count for anything in the game unless you're a Juicer or playing in a game that actually lasts for 30+ or more game years.

Both of which can happen.

The increased PPE recovery isn't significantly beyond what a human has.

Depends on what you think is significant.
But all else being equal (and, really, think about that phrase), why pick Option A if Option B has a minor advantage, and no downside?
If Suitcase 1 has $10,000 dollars, and Suitcase 2 has $10,500, is that a significant amount more money?
Not by most standards.
But most people are going to pick number 2, because hey, free money.

The dice rolls for stats only give a slightly better chance at better stats than a human on average but with how the rules are set up humans and Atlanteans would max at 30 so again the Atlantean doesn't have it all over a human on this point either.

Slightly better is "better."

The extra languages not even close to mattering as a point of being better than a human,

An extra skill is an extra skill.

the Pyramid abilities again as noted repeatedly worthless without a pyramid around to make use of.

And not worthless when there IS a pyramid around to make use of.

So an Atlantean really doesn't have anything significant about it at all to treat it as anything special.

Sure.
Except that they can do pretty much everything that humans can do, plus more, and they don't really have a downside to compensate for the bonus stuff.

[Killer Cyborg]

Atlanteans also can't be physically transformed which can be a BIG disadvantage, especially if the GM has a very broad idea of what qualifies as a transformation. But even with the most lenient GM, that rules out any metamorphosis spells.

--flatline

Correct, but it's hardly a straight-out downside.
You can't be transformed by the Giant spell, but you can't be turned into a newt either.
Overall, it comes out as an upside far more than a downside in most campaigns.

[flatline]

Atlanteans also can't be physically transformed which can be a BIG disadvantage, especially if the GM has a very broad idea of what qualifies as a transformation. But even with the most lenient GM, that rules out any metamorphosis spells.

--flatline

Correct, but it's hardly a straight-out downside.
You can't be transformed by the Giant spell, but you can't be turned into a newt either.
Overall, it comes out as an upside far more than a downside in most campaigns.

What's the upside? The only offensive transformation I can think of is the 15th level spell Transformation which is easily the crappiest spell in the game.

There's a huge downside in that the metamorphosis spells are some of the best utility spells out there. Your True Atlantean Vagabond might not mind the inability to be transformed, but that's the number one reason why my magic users are almost never True Atlanteans in a high powered campaign.

--flatline

[DhAkael]

Tattoos, man..tattoos.

[Nightmask]

So, to you,
"In short, they have all the advantages that humans have, plus a bit more.
In a party of dragons, that's no big deal.
In a party of humans, it can be."
sounds like the difference between an ant and a lion?

Because it certainly doesn't sound like that to me.

Well if you want to keep making mountains out of ant hills that's your prerogative but Atlanteans aren't superior supermen against whom humans cannot measure up against.

You're the one making a big deal out of things, acting like I'm saying something radical or out of line when I point out that Atlanteans are superior to humans, without disadvantages to offset things.

First off they don't have to have disadvantages to offset anything, there is no magical need for anything to have disadvantages beyond what's reasonable for the race or class (such as some monstrous things being harmed by light). Second they do have disadvantages, the transformation limitation being a big one. The fact at least some of their special abilities are worthless unless specific conditions are met is another (pyramids don't exist where they're going to party down in one every night).

Really, the insistence that 'oh no no one would play a human if he can play an Atlantean instead!' just doesn't hold water.

Agreed.
Which is why I never made that argument.
Which is why I've tried several times to clarify what argument I have made, since you keep arguing against something that nobody here has said.
I figured you were confused.

You said 'why would someone buy car A when car B has all the same features as B and more for the same price', so where in that are you NOT arguing that no one would play the human when he can get everything a human gets plus more by choosing an Atlantean?

Yes, I did say that.
I'm guessing that you've never bought a car for personality, sentimentality or other reasons other than straight stats?

How strange, I point out people are often interested in things other than straight up stats while you keep repeating the same thing over and over again about how people wouldn't have any reason to get a human when they could take an Atlantean instead because they have better stats and yet here you try and make my argument as if that's been your position when it hasn't. Your point has been that people wouldn't want a human if they could get an Atlantean and my point has always been that people aren't going to just go 'oh look it's a human only better!' and select based just on game stats. I've even stated repeatedly I've never found Atlanteans appealing to ever bother choosing one and you seem to pretend I've never stated that, for whatever reason. So yes in spite of your insistence that people wouldn't choose A when B was available I am one of those people who have no interest in B no matter how much you think I must be interested in B because it in your mind makes A a choice no one would make given the opportunity.

Doesn't look like I'm the one confused, maybe you should reread your posts.

Still looks like it from here.
Maybe you should reread my posts.

I did, that's why I said you should be reading them again as you've clearly forgotten what point you were making and are contradicting yourself.

This even though the longevity doesn't count for anything in the game unless you're a Juicer or playing in a game that actually lasts for 30+ or more game years.

Both of which can happen.

Not so often as to be a point to consider. From what I've seen people rarely even run games long enough for the Juicer's limited lifespan to matter let alone the life-span difference between a human and an Atlantean (or between a Dog Boy and a Human for that matter).

The increased PPE recovery isn't significantly beyond what a human has.

Depends on what you think is significant.
But all else being equal (and, really, think about that phrase), why pick Option A if Option B has a minor advantage, and no downside?
If Suitcase 1 has $10,000 dollars, and Suitcase 2 has $10,500, is that a significant amount more money?
Not by most standards.
But most people are going to pick number 2, because hey, free money.

Except we aren't talking money, we're talking character races and what you keep insisting is such a winning advantage isn't and people aren't going to go for it in general because it's got slightly better options. Also as has been pointed out that 'no transformations' is a significant disadvantage.

The dice rolls for stats only give a slightly better chance at better stats than a human on average but with how the rules are set up humans and Atlanteans would max at 30 so again the Atlantean doesn't have it all over a human on this point either.

Slightly better is "better."

No, it's slightly better. Nothing to write home about or brag about.

The extra languages not even close to mattering as a point of being better than a human,

An extra skill is an extra skill.

Not even close to being something to play up as being so significant. Translation technology is fairly common in Rifts, for both spoken and written language, extra language and literacy skills aren't that significant when you've tech that can do the work for you as long as you have one language and literacy skill to translate into.

the Pyramid abilities again as noted repeatedly worthless without a pyramid around to make use of.

And not worthless when there IS a pyramid around to make use of.

And being immune to vacuum is great if you get tossed into a vacuum but if you're never at risk of it it's really pretty worthless. Given the rarity of pyramids particularly if you're running a campaign in places like North America or Africa it's a feature of such limited usefulness that it's pretty ridiculous to keep playing it up as something so important when it isn't. You may have pyramids every mile so an Atlantean never need be far from one but the average campaign odds are seeing more than a couple in the lifetime of the game would be just about unheard of unless the party built its own or used one as its headquarters limiting its range.

So an Atlantean really doesn't have anything significant about it at all to treat it as anything special.

Sure.
Except that they can do pretty much everything that humans can do, plus more, and they don't really have a downside to compensate for the bonus stuff.

Not that much more, most of what they can do requires special circumstances that don't ever have to become available, and have a significant downside in their immunity to transformations. You may choose to ignore those downsides because they undermine your contention that they have no limitations and yet the fact remains that Atlanteans do have downsides.

[Nightmask]

Tattoos, man..tattoos.

Normal Humans can use the tattoos as well, they may not be as available to humans but they can make use of them.

[Nightmask]

Atlanteans also can't be physically transformed which can be a BIG disadvantage, especially if the GM has a very broad idea of what qualifies as a transformation. But even with the most lenient GM, that rules out any metamorphosis spells.

--flatline

Correct, but it's hardly a straight-out downside.
You can't be transformed by the Giant spell, but you can't be turned into a newt either.
Overall, it comes out as an upside far more than a downside in most campaigns.

What's the upside? The only offensive transformation I can think of is the 15th level spell Transformation which is easily the crappiest spell in the game.

There's a huge downside in that the metamorphosis spells are some of the best utility spells out there. Your True Atlantean Vagabond might not mind the inability to be transformed, but that's the number one reason why my magic users are almost never True Atlanteans in a high powered campaign.

--flatline

I tend to like the metamorphosis spells too and wouldn't want a magic user that couldn't use them for himself if necessary, and Atlanteans once they're old enough are simply too tall and obvious to pass as a normal human and illusions to disguise it only go so far and not as well as the more thorough magics.

[Giant2005]

One potential weakness of a True Atlantean is the fact that they have at minimum, 22 PPE.
Due to them having more than 20 PPE, a Ley Line Walker will detect them as a magic user regardless of their OCC. I can't seem to find specifics on a Psi Stalker's senses and whether or not they are as attuned as a LLW (I would give them the same 20 PPE requirement personally) but if a Psi Stalker has the same (or less) limitations as a LLW, the CS will kill any True Atlantean on sight. That isn't something a regular human would have to deal with.

[Nightmask]

One potential weakness of a True Atlantean is the fact that they have at minimum, 22 PPE.
Due to them having more than 20 PPE, a Ley Line Walker will detect them as a magic user regardless of their OCC. I can't seem to find specifics on a Psi Stalker's senses and whether or not they are as attuned as a LLW (I would give them the same 20 PPE requirement personally) but if a Psi Stalker has the same (or less) limitations as a LLW, the CS will kill any True Atlantean on sight. That isn't something a regular human would have to deal with.

Yes, I'm just not seeing it about how they're just so superior and supposedly without limitations with all the actual limitations they've got. Especially in a game with the wide range of races and classes Rifts has (EVERYTHING published by Palladium for every game world it has). Maybe if you wanted to play a Stone Master and your GM wouldn't let any non-Atlantean have that magic so you had to pick one it'd be a reasonable choice, but for the most part they're just a big yawn to me and I just don't see the big deal some make about them.

[Killer Cyborg]

Atlanteans also can't be physically transformed which can be a BIG disadvantage, especially if the GM has a very broad idea of what qualifies as a transformation. But even with the most lenient GM, that rules out any metamorphosis spells.

--flatline

Correct, but it's hardly a straight-out downside.
You can't be transformed by the Giant spell, but you can't be turned into a newt either.
Overall, it comes out as an upside far more than a downside in most campaigns.

What's the upside? The only offensive transformation I can think of is the 15th level spell Transformation which is easily the crappiest spell in the game.

Depends on the GM, of course, but flipping through a couple of books, here's what jumps out at me:

Offensive Transformations
Parasites that transform the host (Beastifier, Black Claw, etc.)
Being turned into a vampire (or other undead)
Being transformed by lycanthropy
Being tortured or malformed by bio-wizardry
Being affected by most Faerie Food
Being transformed by curses and/or cursed objects (such as the rune sword Necrom in PFRPG)
Being transformed by magic circles (such as those in the Old Ones' base in PFRPG)
Petrification via spell or supernatural ability
Metamorphosis: Animal
Metamorphosis: Human
Metamorphosis: Insect
Giant (though using offensively is cheesy)
Metamorphosis: Superior
Metamorphosis: Mist
Blood and Thunder (spell of legend)
Metamorphosis: Fish
Metamorphosis: Crustacean
Metamorphosis: Shark
Time Warp: Age

And probably some other stuff that I can't remember or don't know about, or over looked.

There's a huge downside in that the metamorphosis spells are some of the best utility spells out there. Your True Atlantean Vagabond might not mind the inability to be transformed, but that's the number one reason why my magic users are almost never True Atlanteans in a high powered campaign.

--flatline

Different strokes for different folks.
We've only rarely used metamorphosis spells on party members, having not seen a lot of usefulness in it.

[Killer Cyborg]

\Well if you want to keep making mountains out of ant hills that's your prerogative but Atlanteans aren't superior supermen against whom humans cannot measure up against.

You're the one making a big deal out of things, acting like I'm saying something radical or out of line when I point out that Atlanteans are superior to humans, without disadvantages to offset things.

First off they don't have to have disadvantages to offset anything, there is no magical need for anything to have disadvantages beyond what's reasonable for the race or class (such as some monstrous things being harmed by light).

What exactly do you think that you're arguing against...?

Second they do have disadvantages, the transformation limitation being a big one.

Make a case for it, because I don't see it.

The fact at least some of their special abilities are worthless unless specific conditions are met is another (pyramids don't exist where they're going to party down in one every night).

There is quite a difference between advantages that may or may not come up and in disadvantages.
In a campaign where no pyramids are encountered or built, the Atlantean is simply equal with humans in that neither can currently utilize pyramids, not at any sort of disadvantage compared to the human.

You said 'why would someone buy car A when car B has all the same features as B and more for the same price', so where in that are you NOT arguing that no one would play the human when he can get everything a human gets plus more by choosing an Atlantean?

Yes, I did say that.
I'm guessing that you've never bought a car for personality, sentimentality or other reasons other than straight stats?

How strange, I point out people are often interested in things other than straight up stats while you keep repeating the same thing over and over again about how people wouldn't have any reason to get a human when they could take an Atlantean instead because they have better stats and yet here you try and make my argument as if that's been your position when it hasn't.

Uh... I've still never said that people wouldn't ever have any reason to take a human when they could take an Atlantean.
You can keep claiming that I have said that, but that's not going to rewrite reality and change the facts.

Your point has been that people wouldn't want a human if they could get an Atlantean and my point has always been that people aren't going to just go 'oh look it's a human only better!' tand select based just on game stats.

No.
My point has been that munchkins and other gamers who prioritize power when creating characters are going to pick an Atlantean over a human almost every time, with the only exceptions being times when they can find a mechanical advantage in playing a human

I've even stated repeatedly I've never found Atlanteans appealing to ever bother choosing one and you seem to pretend I've never stated that, for whatever reason.

I'm not pretending that you've never said that- it's just never been relevant to the conversation.

This even though the longevity doesn't count for anything in the game unless you're a Juicer or playing in a game that actually lasts for 30+ or more game years.

Both of which can happen.

Not so often as to be a point to consider.

Depends on the gaming group.

The increased PPE recovery isn't significantly beyond what a human has.

Depends on what you think is significant.
But all else being equal (and, really, think about that phrase), why pick Option A if Option B has a minor advantage, and no downside?
If Suitcase 1 has $10,000 dollars, and Suitcase 2 has $10,500, is that a significant amount more money?
Not by most standards.
But most people are going to pick number 2, because hey, free money.

Except we aren't talking money, we're talking character races and what you keep insisting is such a winning advantage isn't and people aren't going to go for it in general because it's got slightly better options.

We're talking numbers in this part, remember? Specifically, increased PPE recovery.
"Increased" means "more."
Which is an advantage.
You claim that it's not significant, but so far have done nothing to support that claim.

Slightly better is "better."

No, it's slightly better.

Right.

Notice how we're both using the word "better" there, but you're pretending that we're talking about different things?

Nothing to write home about or brag about.

Neither of which is a necessary qualification for one thing being better than something else.

An extra skill is an extra skill.

Not even close to being something to play up as being so significant.

How significant?
All I'm saying is that an extra skill is an extra skill.
You seriously think that I'm incorrect here?

the Pyramid abilities again as noted repeatedly worthless without a pyramid around to make use of.

And not worthless when there IS a pyramid around to make use of.

And being immune to vacuum is great if you get tossed into a vacuum but if you're never at risk of it it's really pretty worthless.

Right.
So it's a free advantage that may or may not come into play.
When it does, it's potentially quite valuable.
When it does, there's no cost for having the ability anyway.

Given the rarity of pyramids...

The rarity of pyramids depends on the game group, the campaign, and the adventure(s) in question.
There's no way to accurately claim that they're either rare or common without knowing the details.

Except that they can do pretty much everything that humans can do, plus more, and they don't really have a downside to compensate for the bonus stuff.

Not that much more...

How much more exactly are you talking about?
Because so far, I've only said "more."
And you seem to agree with that:
Atlanteans can do pretty much everything that humans can do, plus MORE.
Which is all I've been saying.
No idea why this is a controversial statement.

[Killer Cyborg]

Tattoos, man..tattoos.

Normal Humans can use the tattoos as well, they may not be as available to humans but they can make use of them.

True, but Atlanteans get some tattoos starting out, at first level, for free.
Which means that the average Atlantean starts off with 70 SDC, plus an average of 16 HP, which means that they only have to take a couple of physical skills in order to be able to survive a point of Mega-Damage.
Usually, it won't make much difference, but I'd rather have a 1 in 6 chance of surviving a shot from a Wilk's 320 than a 0 in 6 chance.
Minor advantage, but still an advantage.

Of course, the difference is greater in SDC environments.

[Killer Cyborg]

One potential weakness of a True Atlantean is the fact that they have at minimum, 22 PPE.
Due to them having more than 20 PPE, a Ley Line Walker will detect them as a magic user regardless of their OCC. I can't seem to find specifics on a Psi Stalker's senses and whether or not they are as attuned as a LLW (I would give them the same 20 PPE requirement personally) but if a Psi Stalker has the same (or less) limitations as a LLW, the CS will kill any True Atlantean on sight. That isn't something a regular human would have to deal with.

All true.
Of course, the Atlantean can spend his PPE, keeping at a lower level.

[Colt47]

You know, just about any argument of a True Atlantean being over powered can probably be leveled at an Altess character being OP or an auto-G. Technically speaking, even a Psi-stalker could be considered a superior breed of human, so I'm really not sure what the point of arguing against a true atlantean PC is.

[Killer Cyborg]

You know, just about any argument of a True Atlantean being over powered can probably be leveled at an Altess character being OP or an auto-G. Technically speaking, even a Psi-stalker could be considered a superior breed of human, so I'm really not sure what the point of arguing against a true atlantean PC is.

Nobody's arguing against a true Atlantean PC.

Flatline asked why the race might be considered to be twinked or munchkin, I explained, and here we are.

I'm not familiar with the Altess race, so I can't really comment on them.
I'm not very familiar with the Auto-Gs either, because I read enough to get the gist, and wrote them off as lame.
Psi-Stalkers are powerful mutant humans, but they have a very important downside- having to feed on PPE.
And the cannibalistic tendencies tend to make them kind of unpopular.

[Colt47]

You know, just about any argument of a True Atlantean being over powered can probably be leveled at an Altess character being OP or an auto-G. Technically speaking, even a Psi-stalker could be considered a superior breed of human, so I'm really not sure what the point of arguing against a true atlantean PC is.

Nobody's arguing against a true Atlantean PC.

Flatline asked why the race might be considered to be twinked or munchkin, I explained, and here we are.

I'm not familiar with the Altess race, so I can't really comment on them.
I'm not very familiar with the Auto-Gs either, because I read enough to get the gist, and wrote them off as lame.
Psi-Stalkers are powerful mutant humans, but they have a very important downside- having to feed on PPE.
And the cannibalistic tendencies tend to make them kind of unpopular.

The Altess are a three galaxies race that are the next evolution of humans. Supposedly, this is thanks to genetic engineering and superior breeding techniques. It initially didn't make a lot of sense to me how this got them Supernatural PS and bodies that can take MD weapons fire, but the background story I think hints of a supernatural cause.

[Killer Cyborg]

Sounds lame.

[Giant2005]

It isn't lame.
They are humans who are major players in the Megaverse - they are the wealthiest nation, have a significant military, earned a measure of immortality and even own a majority of Naruni Enterprises. They did all that without the absurd natural abilities the Splugorth, Kreegor or Prometheans have. They did it with human ingenuity.
You should be proud of your cousin's success!
Of course being over-critical of that success is only natural. I look at their list of accomplishments and with pure jealousy I think "a$$holes" .

[Killer Cyborg]

It isn't lame.
They are humans who are major players in the Megaverse - they are the wealthiest nation, have a significant military, earned a measure of immortality and even own a majority of Naruni Enterprises. They did all that without the absurd natural abilities the Splugorth, Kreegor or Prometheans have. They did it with human ingenuity.
You should be proud of your cousin's success!
Of course being over-critical of that success is only natural. I look at their list of accomplishments and with pure jealousy I think "a$$holes" .

IMO:
Humans don't need cousins- we're awesome in our own right.
Every time somebody comes up with a "defenders of humanity" or "next generation of humanity" or whatever, I kind of just feel condescended to.
Humans rock, and we don't need to be fireproof to do it.

[Nightmask]

It isn't lame.
They are humans who are major players in the Megaverse - they are the wealthiest nation, have a significant military, earned a measure of immortality and even own a majority of Naruni Enterprises. They did all that without the absurd natural abilities the Splugorth, Kreegor or Prometheans have. They did it with human ingenuity.
You should be proud of your cousin's success!
Of course being over-critical of that success is only natural. I look at their list of accomplishments and with pure jealousy I think "a$$holes" .

IMO:
Humans don't need cousins- we're awesome in our own right.
Every time somebody comes up with a "defenders of humanity" or "next generation of humanity" or whatever, I kind of just feel condescended to.
Humans rock, and we don't need to be fireproof to do it.

Humans adapt and evolve to deal with changing situations, so nothing condescending about humans developing new attributes over time due to the demands of a futuristic setting. Completely in keeping with not just sci-fi thinking but RL hard science with regards to evolution.

[Giant2005]

It isn't lame.
They are humans who are major players in the Megaverse - they are the wealthiest nation, have a significant military, earned a measure of immortality and even own a majority of Naruni Enterprises. They did all that without the absurd natural abilities the Splugorth, Kreegor or Prometheans have. They did it with human ingenuity.
You should be proud of your cousin's success!
Of course being over-critical of that success is only natural. I look at their list of accomplishments and with pure jealousy I think "a$$holes" .

IMO:
Humans don't need cousins- we're awesome in our own right.
Every time somebody comes up with a "defenders of humanity" or "next generation of humanity" or whatever, I kind of just feel condescended to.
Humans rock, and we don't need to be fireproof to do it.

Humans adapt and evolve to deal with changing situations, so nothing condescending about humans developing new attributes over time due to the demands of a futuristic setting. Completely in keeping with not just sci-fi thinking but RL hard science with regards to evolution.

This.
People tend to get the concept of "survival of the fittest" wrong. The "fittest" isn't the strongest, it is the most adaptive to change.
A race like the Altess only serve to prove that we have what it takes and I like having the evidence.

[Zer0 Kay]

It isn't lame.
They are humans who are major players in the Megaverse - they are the wealthiest nation, have a significant military, earned a measure of immortality and even own a majority of Naruni Enterprises. They did all that without the absurd natural abilities the Splugorth, Kreegor or Prometheans have. They did it with human ingenuity.
You should be proud of your cousin's success!
Of course being over-critical of that success is only natural. I look at their list of accomplishments and with pure jealousy I think "a$$holes" .

IMO:
Humans don't need cousins- we're awesome in our own right.
Every time somebody comes up with a "defenders of humanity" or "next generation of humanity" or whatever, I kind of just feel condescended to.
Humans rock, and we don't need to be fireproof to do it.

Humans adapt and evolve to deal with changing situations, so nothing condescending about humans developing new attributes over time due to the demands of a futuristic setting. Completely in keeping with not just sci-fi thinking but RL hard science with regards to evolution.

What HARD science? There is no hard science in evolution... let me be more specific, there is no hard science in macro evolution only micro evolution has ever been documented. So are you talking about micro or macro? Micro (and I am simplifying this) is changes for environment but species remains the same. Macro = we came from primordial ooze so all life on Earth is related.

[Killer Cyborg]

It isn't lame.
They are humans who are major players in the Megaverse - they are the wealthiest nation, have a significant military, earned a measure of immortality and even own a majority of Naruni Enterprises. They did all that without the absurd natural abilities the Splugorth, Kreegor or Prometheans have. They did it with human ingenuity.
You should be proud of your cousin's success!
Of course being over-critical of that success is only natural. I look at their list of accomplishments and with pure jealousy I think "a$$holes" .

IMO:
Humans don't need cousins- we're awesome in our own right.
Every time somebody comes up with a "defenders of humanity" or "next generation of humanity" or whatever, I kind of just feel condescended to.
Humans rock, and we don't need to be fireproof to do it.

Humans adapt and evolve to deal with changing situations, so nothing condescending about humans developing new attributes over time due to the demands of a futuristic setting. Completely in keeping with not just sci-fi thinking but RL hard science with regards to evolution.

This.
People tend to get the concept of "survival of the fittest" wrong. The "fittest" isn't the strongest, it is the most adaptive to change.
A race like the Altess only serve to prove that we have what it takes and I like having the evidence.

I don't see that a fictional race proves anything other than what one person thinks might happen or, in this case perhaps, what might be cool.

Humans no longer adapt to the universe, we adapt the universe to us.
We're not going to evolve to be fireproof, because we'll just build fireproof suits or put out the fires.

But hey, I haven't read the info on the Altess, so I can't really say much more about them, other than they sound a bit cheesy.
Maybe I'll read up on them someday and really like them, once I have more info.

[flatline]

What HARD science? There is no hard science in evolution... let me be more specific, there is no hard science in macro evolution only micro evolution has ever been documented. So are you talking about micro or macro? Micro (and I am simplifying this) is changes for environment but species remains the same. Macro = we came from primordial ooze so all life on Earth is related.

We've seen populations of flies living in a single tree divide into new species that cannot breed with each other. So yes, we've seen and documented macro evolution in action.

--flatline

[Colt47]

It isn't lame.
They are humans who are major players in the Megaverse - they are the wealthiest nation, have a significant military, earned a measure of immortality and even own a majority of Naruni Enterprises. They did all that without the absurd natural abilities the Splugorth, Kreegor or Prometheans have. They did it with human ingenuity.
You should be proud of your cousin's success!
Of course being over-critical of that success is only natural. I look at their list of accomplishments and with pure jealousy I think "a$$holes" .

IMO:
Humans don't need cousins- we're awesome in our own right.
Every time somebody comes up with a "defenders of humanity" or "next generation of humanity" or whatever, I kind of just feel condescended to.
Humans rock, and we don't need to be fireproof to do it.

Humans adapt and evolve to deal with changing situations, so nothing condescending about humans developing new attributes over time due to the demands of a futuristic setting. Completely in keeping with not just sci-fi thinking but RL hard science with regards to evolution.

This.
People tend to get the concept of "survival of the fittest" wrong. The "fittest" isn't the strongest, it is the most adaptive to change.
A race like the Altess only serve to prove that we have what it takes and I like having the evidence.

I don't see that a fictional race proves anything other than what one person thinks might happen or, in this case perhaps, what might be cool.

Humans no longer adapt to the universe, we adapt the universe to us.
We're not going to evolve to be fireproof, because we'll just build fireproof suits or put out the fires.

But hey, I haven't read the info on the Altess, so I can't really say much more about them, other than they sound a bit cheesy.
Maybe I'll read up on them someday and really like them, once I have more info.

I find them a bit cheesy, but a whole lot less than I find traditional dwarves and elves cheesy. I counted my blessings when I found the super advanced race that nearly got wiped off the planet were humans when I got involved in Rifts.

[llywelyn]

Psi-Stalkers are powerful mutant humans, but they have a very important downside- having to feed on PPE.
And the cannibalistic tendencies tend to make them kind of unpopular.

You mean "man-killing tendencies".

People tend to get the concept of "survival of the fittest" wrong. The "fittest" isn't the strongest, it is the most adaptive to change.

People tend to get the concept of "survival of the fittest" wrong. The "fittest" isn't the strongest; it is the most reproductively successful.

[Giant2005]

It isn't lame.
They are humans who are major players in the Megaverse - they are the wealthiest nation, have a significant military, earned a measure of immortality and even own a majority of Naruni Enterprises. They did all that without the absurd natural abilities the Splugorth, Kreegor or Prometheans have. They did it with human ingenuity.
You should be proud of your cousin's success!
Of course being over-critical of that success is only natural. I look at their list of accomplishments and with pure jealousy I think "a$$holes" .

IMO:
Humans don't need cousins- we're awesome in our own right.
Every time somebody comes up with a "defenders of humanity" or "next generation of humanity" or whatever, I kind of just feel condescended to.
Humans rock, and we don't need to be fireproof to do it.

Humans adapt and evolve to deal with changing situations, so nothing condescending about humans developing new attributes over time due to the demands of a futuristic setting. Completely in keeping with not just sci-fi thinking but RL hard science with regards to evolution.

This.
People tend to get the concept of "survival of the fittest" wrong. The "fittest" isn't the strongest, it is the most adaptive to change.
A race like the Altess only serve to prove that we have what it takes and I like having the evidence.

I don't see that a fictional race proves anything other than what one person thinks might happen or, in this case perhaps, what might be cool.

When I said "we" I meant the human raec within the Palladium Universe, not "we" as in the real life human race. I do see that I was very unclear about that so I apologize for the confusion.
What I meant about the Altess was that I liked seeing what the human race of Rifts Earth would have likely become if everything didn't get so screwed up for them. I like the Altess because their existence is like being able to witness opportunity cost, which isn't really something that can be done in real life.

[Giant2005]

People tend to get the concept of "survival of the fittest" wrong. The "fittest" isn't the strongest, it is the most adaptive to change.

People tend to get the concept of "survival of the fittest" wrong. The "fittest" isn't the strongest; it is the most reproductively successful.[/quote]
That isn't very accurate.
The human race is agreed to be the "fittest" but our reproductive capabilities are very near the bottom.
Either way I don't really want to get into semantics...

[Akashic Soldier]

:badbad:

Ignore what he said there, it is completely false, evolution is a hard science, and the only claims that macro evolution is undocumented are based on lies spread around by anti-science groups. A hard science is considered good and sound, evolution is both by any definition.

ZK, I hope you're just mistaken rather than seriously believing this.


Not to derail, but yeah... don't take his word for it.

EVOLUTION HAS NO HARD EVIDENCE SUPPORTING IT!!

THE ONLY PROOF OF THE EVOLUTIONARY PROCESS IS EXAMPLES OF MACRO-EVOLUTION AS WE SEE IN THE SELECTIVE BREEDING OF SPECIFIC ANIMALS!

OUTSIDE OF THE MICRO-UNIVERSE THERE IS NO ONE EXAMPLE IN SCIENCE OF ONE CREATURE TURNING INTO ANOTHER OR DEVELOPING ABILITIES ITS ANCESTORS DID NOT HAVE!

NONE

NOT FREAKING ONE!!

I WOULD LOVE FOR YOU TO SHOW ME ONE BECAUSE I HAVE LOOKED INTO THIS FOR YEARS AND JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING IS SHOVED DOWN YOUR THROAT AS MAINSTREAM FACT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS!! SCIENCE HAS BECOME A RELIGION AND NEW IDEAS ARE SHUNTED OUT RATHER THAN EXPLORED!! WE ACCEPT CERTAIN THEORIES AS FACT AND WORSHIP AT THE SHINE OF WHAT MAKES US FEEL SAFEST BUT THE TRUTH

THE REAL FREAKING HARD TRUTH!!!!!

THE THING NO ONE WANTS TO ******* ACCEPT IS THAT

WE DON'T KNOW!!!

We've got theories we've got ideas and boy oh boy do we have speculation but we have NO PROOF and last time I checked THAT was the REAL scientific process so go take your condensation and preconceptions SOMEWHERE ELSE!

BECAUSE NEARLY EVERYTHING YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD BY THOSE PROFESSIONALS IS A COMFORTABLE LIE!

Go look it up! Do the research yourself! Not online where people talk **** constantly, call up universities (not just one here or there) ask them to for evidence of evolution. Factual evidence of something OTHER than macro-evolution. They CANT because they don't have any.

EN-FACT!!!!!

We have so much of the fossil record now from so many different eras in time that progressive evolutionary theory CANNOT be right. The ONLY FEASIBLE evolutionary theory scientists can support is spontaneous evolution where once creature just magically gives birth to another (a mutant) that is drastically different to its parent because otherwise the damn fossil records DONT MAKE SENSE ANYMORE!

LOOK IT UP!!

I AM SO TIRED OF PEOPLE BEING MISS-EDUCATED INTO A BELIEF SYSTEM THAT IS MORE THAN A HUNDRED YEARS OUT OF DATE!!!

PEOPLE BLAME RELIGION FOR FREAKING MISGUIDING PEOPLE AND THEN PUT THIS ******* CROWN ON SCIENCE LIKE IT HAS ALL THE ANSWERS (WHICH IT DOES) BUT THEN THEY TAKE THORIES AND USE WORDS LIKE HARD FACT AND IT DRIVES ME FREAKING CRAZY!!! ITS LIKE PEOPLE WANT TO BE LIED TO!! ITS LIKE THEY WANT TO JUST TAKE EVERYTHING AT FACE VALUE AND WALK BLINDLY WITH WHATEVER SEEMS EASIEST AND MAKES THE MOST SENSE!?!?

FREAKING


AHASHSAHASHHDASF
HGSF

DSFH
FGGNF
FD
N

SF
GF


YOU'RE ALL SMARTER THAN THAT!!!!
Don't take my word on anything, go look into it, in books, and in reality and not on wiki. Don't just ask for ANSWERS ask WHY that is the answer!!!!

*bashes his head on the desk*

[wyrmraker]

Combating Munchkinism as well as it's preconceptions is indeed difficult, since the definition of Munchkin seems to be highly variable.
I myself have a player who constantly attempts to get around my rulings that Rifts characters in my games will not be permitted super powers. So instead he pulls out Temporal Wizards, or anything from South America 2 (Achilles Neo-Humans are a new favorite). The rest of the current group includes a NGR Cyborg (Red Type), a Human Battle Magus, and a Human Psi-Tek. I forgot to mention that said player is notorious in our group for changing characters because 'the character just doesn't fit with the group'.

But a prime example of a Munchkin. Old group, many years ago. I wasn't the starting GM. I was playing a light espionage cyborg (Max MDC 120), one guy played a True Atlantean Tundra Ranger, and the GM was playing an elven LLW.
And the fourth guy pulled out a Godling Gunfighter with Mystic Knight powers. Yeah. Lovely, isn't it?
Later in the game, I was GMing the group across the Plain of Mist. They were escorting some cargo for a guy, and bandits attacked. The bandits were armed with shotguns loaded with APRJ rounds. The VERY first thing the munchkin did was accuse me of deliberately targeting his character with bandits using slugthrowers. I was, but used economics to defend my position (the ammo might be a bit more expensive, but a SDC shotgun is dirt cheap. And well, they're bandits. They're not exactly rolling in cash).
I am a power gamer, in the sense that I start small with my characters, but slowly work towards greater things. For example, my current character is a human Battle Magus. He started off with his spells, a backpack full of supplies, a hovercycle, and a laser rifle. That's it. Now at level 6, he has a heavily modified Behemoth Explorer, untold riches (well, a few million credits' worth) and a lot more spells, some from the space magic section. Powerful? Yes. Did I min/max? Sure I did; Palladium is notorious for being able to do that. Did I start the character off as powerful? No, not like that one guy with the Godling did, or what my player infatuated with the super powers constantly tries to do. Is the character powerful now? Yes, because of innovative roleplaying, shrewd business dealings, and a good head for what people want to buy.

[Colt47]

Akashic I'm not even going to quote that monstrous response of yours. Evolution is a theory, meaning it has been proven many times over, but has many areas that are still under investigation.

From my brother:

****************************************************************************************************
Evolution consists of three parts: Natural selection, mutation, and genetic drift. We have evidence of evolution through the fossil record, observations by naturalists like Darwin, particularly his observation of the unique beaks of finches, and have seen microbes go through the process in the lab, among countless additional examples. Selective breeding is simply artificial selection of traits as opposed to natural selection. The only difference between a population of microbes and a population of deer for purposes of these three mechanisms is their lifespan, and to a lesser degree, its complexity. The size of an organism does not exempt it from natural selection, mutation, or genetic drift. Bananas, for instance, are a result of mutations of the common plantains raised by Jamaicans, and happened all on its own and not because the Jamaicans were aiming for yellow plantains. Humans liked the taste of the yellow plantains, and continued to grow them. In effect, we acted like a bunch of intelligent honey bees and selected a food that we liked, and thus the banana prospers today. Let me ask you a question. Do you believe that planets exist around far away stars? You cannot directly see these planets, even though we have lots of evidence pointing to their existence. If you were to be consistent in your views, you'd be an exoplanet denialist, but I doubt that you are. It is only because evolution runs contrary to religious beliefs on the issue of variety of life on earth that this ever got started.
****************************************************************************************************

On the subject of munchkinism, I'm still more convinced it's a problem of picking for power instead of picking what fits for the character that the player wants to play.

Combating Munchkinism as well as it's preconceptions is indeed difficult, since the definition of Munchkin seems to be highly variable.
I myself have a player who constantly attempts to get around my rulings that Rifts characters in my games will not be permitted super powers. So instead he pulls out Temporal Wizards, or anything from South America 2 (Achilles Neo-Humans are a new favorite). The rest of the current group includes a NGR Cyborg (Red Type), a Human Battle Magus, and a Human Psi-Tek. I forgot to mention that said player is notorious in our group for changing characters because 'the character just doesn't fit with the group'.

But a prime example of a Munchkin. Old group, many years ago. I wasn't the starting GM. I was playing a light espionage cyborg (Max MDC 120), one guy played a True Atlantean Tundra Ranger, and the GM was playing an elven LLW.
And the fourth guy pulled out a Godling Gunfighter with Mystic Knight powers. Yeah. Lovely, isn't it?
Later in the game, I was GMing the group across the Plain of Mist. They were escorting some cargo for a guy, and bandits attacked. The bandits were armed with shotguns loaded with APRJ rounds. The VERY first thing the munchkin did was accuse me of deliberately targeting his character with bandits using slugthrowers. I was, but used economics to defend my position (the ammo might be a bit more expensive, but a SDC shotgun is dirt cheap. And well, they're bandits. They're not exactly rolling in cash).
I am a power gamer, in the sense that I start small with my characters, but slowly work towards greater things. For example, my current character is a human Battle Magus. He started off with his spells, a backpack full of supplies, a hovercycle, and a laser rifle. That's it. Now at level 6, he has a heavily modified Behemoth Explorer, untold riches (well, a few million credits' worth) and a lot more spells, some from the space magic section. Powerful? Yes. Did I min/max? Sure I did; Palladium is notorious for being able to do that. Did I start the character off as powerful? No, not like that one guy with the Godling did, or what my player infatuated with the super powers constantly tries to do. Is the character powerful now? Yes, because of innovative roleplaying, shrewd business dealings, and a good head for what people want to buy.

There are three things that usually make games get really really awkward: Godlings, Nightbane in Rifts, and Cosmo-Knights.

[Giant2005]

ITS LIKE THEY WANT TO JUST TAKE EVERYTHING AT FACE VALUE AND WALK BLINDLY WITH WHATEVER SEEMS EASIEST AND MAKES THE MOST SENSE!?!?

Ummmm, I sense some hefty frustration in your post which could probably account for a lapse of judgment but wouldn't it be smartest to give more weight to the theory that makes the most sense?
I don't really see much wisdom in the line of thought that goes: "Wow that really does make sense! But you know what? I'm going to go with something else anyway even if your argument makes more sense than anything else."

[Akashic Soldier]

I am working on writing at the moment so I cant get into this but I will just say as soon as someone shows me something (anything) in nature that can GAIN genetic information (and thus is capable of evolving into something else) I do not care if modern scientists hold it has a theory.

The term "theory" is a polyseme, even among scientists. While most scientists reserve the term for verifiable principles, others use it to refer to hypothetical frameworks.

There is nothing in nature (and it is currently impossible by modern science) that adds genetic information to a cell. All recorded evolution (such as selective breeding in dogs which was one of the primary source of evidence for the theory) causes a loss of genetic information. If you don't know what that means, go check it out and this will all start to make a little more sense.

If youre too lazy think of it like you have pool 100 points.

Each "part" of your body costs points, like say the head cost 10. Now if you wanted a harder skull you could sacrifice speed and say shorten your legs (-5 points) to increase your head to 15 points so now it is harder.

Gah. This frustrates me as much as blackholes. Everyone believe whatever you want. I'm not going to get into this. Just look at the evidence and make up your own minds. That is all I ask. The evidence doesn't lie, it doesn't have an agenda or a sociological angle. Until something can prove to me why some creatures naturally have more genetic info than other things that they were supposed to evolve from I just dont buy it and I am not afraid to say I don't have an answer.

Something to think about though is that for the POSSIBILITY to evolve intelligence like our own.. no let me start over...

For the cell to evolve out of the primordial soup that COULD one day evolve into something that COULD evolve into us it would take 46 billion years. That is how complicated the cell would need to be for it to maybe--MAYBE--evolve into something else that COULD evolve into a human one day. 46 billion years.

How old is the Earth again?

[wyrmraker]

I was referring to the sheer power disparity, actually. Three fairly normal characters, and one that would potentially outshine them all in literally every aspect. Thank goodness the guy playing the godling was an idiot; he could barely do anything outside of combat, and even in combat he would argue about critical decisions. I mean in critical failures. Whenever someone would roll a Nat 1, I would have something interesting happen. In his case, the e-clip slid out of the rifle (he didn't engage the magazine catch fully), or a bit of grit interfered with the trigger sensor. One time he had accidentally purchased a dud mini-missile. That sort of thing. And each and every time I would come up with a legitimate bit of hardware failure due to bad luck (and rolling a Nat 1 in combat is bad luck, no matter how many ways you look at it), he would argue that it was impossible, unlikely, and ridiculous.
The main difference between munchkins and power gamers mostly comes down to how much attention they demand. The more attention and 'admiration' they demand, the more likely they are to be more munchkin. It's a situation of a small child wailing for attention because other people are doing fun stuff, and the munchkin child wants to be the star of the show.

[Nightmask]

Seems like if you think an Atlantean is a munchkin choice your baseline or idea of what constitutes a munchkin is so low everything above Aunt May is munchkin.

As far as the rant about evolution goes, this isn't the forum for that. It's certainly not being mentioned as if it were some blind faith people are following because 'the God of Science' told them to.

[Colt47]

I am working on writing at the moment so I cant get into this but I will just say as soon as someone shows me something (anything) in nature that can GAIN genetic information (and thus is capable of evolving into something else) I do not care if modern scientists hold it has a theory.

The term "theory" is a polyseme, even among scientists. While most scientists reserve the term for verifiable principles, others use it to refer to hypothetical frameworks.

There is nothing in nature (and it is currently impossible by modern science) that adds genetic information to a cell. All recorded evolution (such as selective breeding in dogs which was one of the primary source of evidence for the theory) causes a loss of genetic information. If you don't know what that means, go check it out and this will all start to make a little more sense.

If youre too lazy think of it like you have pool 100 points.

Each "part" of your body costs points, like say the head cost 10. Now if you wanted a harder skull you could sacrifice speed and say shorten your legs (-5 points) to increase your head to 15 points so now it is harder.

Gah. This frustrates me as much as blackholes. Everyone believe whatever you want. I'm not going to get into this. Just look at the evidence and make up your own minds. That is all I ask. The evidence doesn't lie, it doesn't have an agenda or a sociological angle. Until something can prove to me why some creatures naturally have more genetic info than other things that they were supposed to evolve from I just dont buy it and I am not afraid to say I don't have an answer.

Something to think about though is that for the POSSIBILITY to evolve intelligence like our own.. no let me start over...

For the cell to evolve out of the primordial soup that COULD one day evolve into something that COULD evolve into us it would take 46 billion years. That is how complicated the cell would need to be for it to maybe--MAYBE--evolve into something else that COULD evolve into a human one day. 46 billion years.

How old is the Earth again?

Have you ever looked up this argument you are attempting to make?

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB102.html
^ this link pretty much sums up your argument along with rebuttals and their sources. This argument has been played out a lot and generally speaking, if a proper definition of information is given, the creationist argument fails. Also, this is not the proper subject of this thread. If you want, we can talk about it in PMs or something.

Seems like if you think an Atlantean is a munchkin choice your baseline or idea of what constitutes a munchkin is so low everything above Aunt May is munchkin.

As far as the rant about evolution goes, this isn't the forum for that. It's certainly not being mentioned as if it were some blind faith people are following because 'the God of Science' told them to.

That's the part of Rifts that can be a bit difficult for those unfamiliar with it to get a grip on. Power level in this game is highly relative. Cosmo Knights are very munchy, for example, but only when they are put into a context where that is possible, such as a survival game in the Black Forest of Europe. Generally speaking, most characters tend to have weaker and stronger counterparts, and the GM needs to make sure that everyone is playing an even field when entering a game. The flip side of this is that it's fairly easy to play something underpowered in a game as well.

[Killer Cyborg]

ITS LIKE THEY WANT TO JUST TAKE EVERYTHING AT FACE VALUE AND WALK BLINDLY WITH WHATEVER SEEMS EASIEST AND MAKES THE MOST SENSE!?!?

Ummmm, I sense some hefty frustration in your post which could probably account for a lapse of judgment but wouldn't it be smartest to give more weight to the theory that makes the most sense?
I don't really see much wisdom in the line of thought that goes: "Wow that really does make sense! But you know what? I'm going to go with something else anyway even if your argument makes more sense than anything else."

Seconded.
Going with what's hardest and makes the least sense would be like... Occam's Rogaine or something.

[Killer Cyborg]

Seems like if you think an Atlantean is a munchkin choice your baseline or idea of what constitutes a munchkin is so low everything above Aunt May is munchkin.

Munchkinism isn't about a certain power level, it's about relative power level.
In a "Land of the Blind" RPG, they'd be wanting to play the guy with one eye.
They'd be okay playing Aunt May, just as long as everybody else around them was even more feeble.
Conversely, they'd HATE playing a Mulka Cosmoknight Godling, if everything they went up against was equally powerful.

As far as the rant about evolution goes, this isn't the forum for that.

Agreed.

[Akashic Soldier]

All I ask is that people read the link and do the research. Understand the nature of mutation and what it means to add genetic information to a cell.

I'd like to keep this on topic now because as I have said in several private messages already (I am not your science teacher).

[Zer0 Kay]

It isn't lame.
They are humans who are major players in the Megaverse - they are the wealthiest nation, have a significant military, earned a measure of immortality and even own a majority of Naruni Enterprises. They did all that without the absurd natural abilities the Splugorth, Kreegor or Prometheans have. They did it with human ingenuity.
You should be proud of your cousin's success!
Of course being over-critical of that success is only natural. I look at their list of accomplishments and with pure jealousy I think "a$$holes" .

IMO:
Humans don't need cousins- we're awesome in our own right.
Every time somebody comes up with a "defenders of humanity" or "next generation of humanity" or whatever, I kind of just feel condescended to.
Humans rock, and we don't need to be fireproof to do it.

Humans adapt and evolve to deal with changing situations, so nothing condescending about humans developing new attributes over time due to the demands of a futuristic setting. Completely in keeping with not just sci-fi thinking but RL hard science with regards to evolution.

What HARD science? There is no hard science in evolution... let me be more specific, there is no hard science in macro evolution only micro evolution has ever been documented. So are you talking about micro or macro? Micro (and I am simplifying this) is changes for environment but species remains the same. Macro = we came from primordial ooze so all life on Earth is related.

Ignore what he said there, it is completely false, evolution is a hard science, and the only claims that macro evolution is undocumented are based on lies spread around by anti-science groups. A hard science is considered good and sound, evolution is both by any definition.

ZK, I hope you're just mistaken rather than seriously believing this.


Not to derail, but yeah... don't take his word for it.

Prove that Macro Evolution is a hard science. Darwin even stated if science... you know what I'm not going there. I wish there weren't so many tools of the fascist, anti-intellectual, anti-american, liberal, school district, zealots out there.

You show me one link between two species that shows macro evolution, heck show me a line of a single species with macro mutations out there or any other type of observation or experiment that proves macro-evolution/mutation and I'll give in to your THEORY!! It isn't my fault that scientist and fascist school districts refuse to accept the possibility of the supernatural, which by the very exclusion makes that experiment bias and therefore invalid.

There is a higher probability that creation was intelligent and not random.

[Zer0 Kay]

All I ask is that people read the link and do the research. Understand the nature of mutation and what it means to add genetic information to a cell.

I'd like to keep this on topic now because as I have said in several private messages already (I am not your science teacher).

I actually am a science teacher (well, general education, math, science, literature, all of it), and it was obvious you were not one from the beginning.

People who do research don't say what you've said.

Okay science teacher what is the big deal about the Dracorex hogwartsia, Stygimoloch and Pachycephalosaurus?

What would happen if we were any closer to the center of the arm we're on in the Milky Way?

What was the first full length science fiction movie?

How far is a Radar mile?

If a woodchuck could chuck would... would anyone care?

Edit: How many spaces after a period in the two most commonly used scholarly formats?

[Zer0 Kay]

What HARD science? There is no hard science in evolution... let me be more specific, there is no hard science in macro evolution only micro evolution has ever been documented. So are you talking about micro or macro? Micro (and I am simplifying this) is changes for environment but species remains the same. Macro = we came from primordial ooze so all life on Earth is related.

We've seen populations of flies living in a single tree divide into new species that cannot breed with each other. So yes, we've seen and documented macro evolution in action.

--flatline

Have we or have we seen the same thing as a Horse and a Mule mating? Guess what a new species of fly is not Macro evolution... IT IS STILL A FLY.

[Zer0 Kay]

:badbad:

Ignore what he said there, it is completely false, evolution is a hard science, and the only claims that macro evolution is undocumented are based on lies spread around by anti-science groups. A hard science is considered good and sound, evolution is both by any definition.

ZK, I hope you're just mistaken rather than seriously believing this.


Not to derail, but yeah... don't take his word for it.

EVOLUTION HAS NO HARD EVIDENCE SUPPORTING IT!!

THE ONLY PROOF OF THE EVOLUTIONARY PROCESS IS EXAMPLES OF MACRO-EVOLUTION AS WE SEE IN THE SELECTIVE BREEDING OF SPECIFIC ANIMALS!

OUTSIDE OF THE MICRO-UNIVERSE THERE IS NO ONE EXAMPLE IN SCIENCE OF ONE CREATURE TURNING INTO ANOTHER OR DEVELOPING ABILITIES ITS ANCESTORS DID NOT HAVE!

NONE

NOT FREAKING ONE!!

I WOULD LOVE FOR YOU TO SHOW ME ONE BECAUSE I HAVE LOOKED INTO THIS FOR YEARS AND JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING IS SHOVED DOWN YOUR THROAT AS MAINSTREAM FACT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS!! SCIENCE HAS BECOME A RELIGION AND NEW IDEAS ARE SHUNTED OUT RATHER THAN EXPLORED!! WE ACCEPT CERTAIN THEORIES AS FACT AND WORSHIP AT THE SHINE OF WHAT MAKES US FEEL SAFEST BUT THE TRUTH

THE REAL FREAKING HARD TRUTH!!!!!

THE THING NO ONE WANTS TO ******* ACCEPT IS THAT

WE DON'T KNOW!!!

We've got theories we've got ideas and boy oh boy do we have speculation but we have NO PROOF and last time I checked THAT was the REAL scientific process so go take your condensation and preconceptions SOMEWHERE ELSE!

BECAUSE NEARLY EVERYTHING YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD BY THOSE PROFESSIONALS IS A COMFORTABLE LIE!

Go look it up! Do the research yourself! Not online where people talk **** constantly, call up universities (not just one here or there) ask them to for evidence of evolution. Factual evidence of something OTHER than macro-evolution. They CANT because they don't have any.

EN-FACT!!!!!

We have so much of the fossil record now from so many different eras in time that progressive evolutionary theory CANNOT be right. The ONLY FEASIBLE evolutionary theory scientists can support is spontaneous evolution where once creature just magically gives birth to another (a mutant) that is drastically different to its parent because otherwise the damn fossil records DONT MAKE SENSE ANYMORE!

LOOK IT UP!!

I AM SO TIRED OF PEOPLE BEING MISS-EDUCATED INTO A BELIEF SYSTEM THAT IS MORE THAN A HUNDRED YEARS OUT OF DATE!!!

PEOPLE BLAME RELIGION FOR FREAKING MISGUIDING PEOPLE AND THEN PUT THIS ******* CROWN ON SCIENCE LIKE IT HAS ALL THE ANSWERS (WHICH IT DOES) BUT THEN THEY TAKE THORIES AND USE WORDS LIKE HARD FACT AND IT DRIVES ME FREAKING CRAZY!!! ITS LIKE PEOPLE WANT TO BE LIED TO!! ITS LIKE THEY WANT TO JUST TAKE EVERYTHING AT FACE VALUE AND WALK BLINDLY WITH WHATEVER SEEMS EASIEST AND MAKES THE MOST SENSE!?!?

FREAKING


AHASHSAHASHHDASF
HGSF

DSFH
FGGNF
FD
N

SF
GF


YOU'RE ALL SMARTER THAN THAT!!!!
Don't take my word on anything, go look into it, in books, and in reality and not on wiki. Don't just ask for ANSWERS ask WHY that is the answer!!!!

*bashes his head on the desk*

Hey, calm down AK... you know there is always the Platipus that shows how evolution... uh... waith that doesn't show anything never mind.

[Zer0 Kay]

Akashic I'm not even going to quote that monstrous response of yours. Evolution is a theory, meaning it has been proven many times over, but has many areas that are still under investigation.

From my brother:

****************************************************************************************************
Evolution consists of three parts: Natural selection, mutation, and genetic drift. We have evidence of evolution through the fossil record, observations by naturalists like Darwin, particularly his observation of the unique beaks of finches, and have seen microbes go through the process in the lab, among countless additional examples. Selective breeding is simply artificial selection of traits as opposed to natural selection. The only difference between a population of microbes and a population of deer for purposes of these three mechanisms is their lifespan, and to a lesser degree, its complexity. The size of an organism does not exempt it from natural selection, mutation, or genetic drift. Bananas, for instance, are a result of mutations of the common plantains raised by Jamaicans, and happened all on its own and not because the Jamaicans were aiming for yellow plantains. Humans liked the taste of the yellow plantains, and continued to grow them. In effect, we acted like a bunch of intelligent honey bees and selected a food that we liked, and thus the banana prospers today. Let me ask you a question. Do you believe that planets exist around far away stars? You cannot directly see these planets, even though we have lots of evidence pointing to their existence. If you were to be consistent in your views, you'd be an exoplanet denialist, but I doubt that you are. It is only because evolution runs contrary to religious beliefs on the issue of variety of life on earth that this ever got started.
****************************************************************************************************

On the subject of munchkinism, I'm still more convinced it's a problem of picking for power instead of picking what fits for the character that the player wants to play.

Combating Munchkinism as well as it's preconceptions is indeed difficult, since the definition of Munchkin seems to be highly variable.
I myself have a player who constantly attempts to get around my rulings that Rifts characters in my games will not be permitted super powers. So instead he pulls out Temporal Wizards, or anything from South America 2 (Achilles Neo-Humans are a new favorite). The rest of the current group includes a NGR Cyborg (Red Type), a Human Battle Magus, and a Human Psi-Tek. I forgot to mention that said player is notorious in our group for changing characters because 'the character just doesn't fit with the group'.

But a prime example of a Munchkin. Old group, many years ago. I wasn't the starting GM. I was playing a light espionage cyborg (Max MDC 120), one guy played a True Atlantean Tundra Ranger, and the GM was playing an elven LLW.
And the fourth guy pulled out a Godling Gunfighter with Mystic Knight powers. Yeah. Lovely, isn't it?
Later in the game, I was GMing the group across the Plain of Mist. They were escorting some cargo for a guy, and bandits attacked. The bandits were armed with shotguns loaded with APRJ rounds. The VERY first thing the munchkin did was accuse me of deliberately targeting his character with bandits using slugthrowers. I was, but used economics to defend my position (the ammo might be a bit more expensive, but a SDC shotgun is dirt cheap. And well, they're bandits. They're not exactly rolling in cash).
I am a power gamer, in the sense that I start small with my characters, but slowly work towards greater things. For example, my current character is a human Battle Magus. He started off with his spells, a backpack full of supplies, a hovercycle, and a laser rifle. That's it. Now at level 6, he has a heavily modified Behemoth Explorer, untold riches (well, a few million credits' worth) and a lot more spells, some from the space magic section. Powerful? Yes. Did I min/max? Sure I did; Palladium is notorious for being able to do that. Did I start the character off as powerful? No, not like that one guy with the Godling did, or what my player infatuated with the super powers constantly tries to do. Is the character powerful now? Yes, because of innovative roleplaying, shrewd business dealings, and a good head for what people want to buy.

There are three things that usually make games get really really awkward: Godlings, Nightbane in Rifts, and Cosmo-Knights.

Micro-evolution... those finches didn't become a Beagle
Micro-evolution... that bacteria didn't turn into a worm
Micro-evolution... in the past 2000 years not one monkey has given birth to a human baby or one human given birth to a monkey... excuse me ape not monkey.