Nightmask wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Nightmask wrote:\Well if you want to keep making mountains out of ant hills that's your prerogative but Atlanteans aren't superior supermen against whom humans cannot measure up against.
You're the one making a big deal out of things, acting like I'm saying something radical or out of line when I point out that Atlanteans are superior to humans, without disadvantages to offset things.
First off they don't have to have disadvantages to offset anything, there is no magical need for anything to have disadvantages beyond what's reasonable for the race or class (such as some monstrous things being harmed by light).
What exactly do you think that you're arguing against...?
Second they do have disadvantages, the transformation limitation being a big one.
Make a case for it, because I don't see it.
The fact at least some of their special abilities are worthless unless specific conditions are met is another (pyramids don't exist where they're going to party down in one every night).
There is quite a difference between advantages that may or may not come up and in disadvantages.
In a campaign where no pyramids are encountered or built, the Atlantean is simply equal with humans in that neither can currently utilize pyramids, not at any sort of disadvantage compared to the human.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Nightmask wrote:You said 'why would someone buy car A when car B has all the same features as B and more for the same price', so where in that are you NOT arguing that no one would play the human when he can get everything a human gets plus more by choosing an Atlantean?
Yes, I did say that.
I'm guessing that you've never bought a car for personality, sentimentality or other reasons other than straight stats?
How strange, I point out people are often interested in things other than straight up stats while you keep repeating the same thing over and over again about how people wouldn't have any reason to get a human when they could take an Atlantean instead because they have better stats and yet here you try and make my argument as if that's been your position when it hasn't.
Uh... I've still
never said that people wouldn't ever have any reason to take a human when they could take an Atlantean.
You can keep claiming that I have said that, but that's not going to rewrite reality and change the facts.
Your point has been that people wouldn't want a human if they could get an Atlantean and my point has always been that people aren't going to just go 'oh look it's a human only better!' tand select based just on game stats.
No.
My point has been that munchkins and other gamers who prioritize power when creating characters are going to pick an Atlantean over a human almost every time, with the only exceptions being times when they can find a mechanical advantage in playing a human
I've even stated repeatedly I've never found Atlanteans appealing to ever bother choosing one and you seem to pretend I've never stated that, for whatever reason.
I'm not pretending that you've never said that- it's just never been relevant to the conversation.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Nightmask wrote:This even though the longevity doesn't count for anything in the game unless you're a Juicer or playing in a game that actually lasts for 30+ or more game years.
Both of which can happen.
Not so often as to be a point to consider.
Depends on the gaming group.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Nightmask wrote:The increased PPE recovery isn't significantly beyond what a human has.
Depends on what you think is significant.
But all else being equal (and, really, think about that phrase), why pick Option A if Option B has a minor advantage, and no downside?
If Suitcase 1 has $10,000 dollars, and Suitcase 2 has $10,500, is that a significant amount more money?
Not by most standards.
But most people are going to pick number 2, because hey, free money.
Except we aren't talking money, we're talking character races and what you keep insisting is such a winning advantage isn't and people aren't going to go for it in general because it's got slightly better options.
We're talking numbers in this part, remember? Specifically, increased PPE recovery.
"Increased" means "more."
Which is an advantage.
You claim that it's not significant, but so far have done nothing to support that claim.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Slightly better is "better."
No, it's slightly better.
Right.
Notice how we're both using the word "better" there, but you're pretending that we're talking about different things?
Nothing to write home about or brag about.
Neither of which is a necessary qualification for one thing being better than something else.
Killer Cyborg wrote:An extra skill is an extra skill.
Not even close to being something to play up as being so significant.
How significant?
All I'm saying is that an extra skill is an extra skill.
You seriously think that I'm incorrect here?
Killer Cyborg wrote:Nightmask wrote:the Pyramid abilities again as noted repeatedly worthless without a pyramid around to make use of.
And not worthless when there IS a pyramid around to make use of.
And being immune to vacuum is great if you get tossed into a vacuum but if you're never at risk of it it's really pretty worthless.
Right.
So it's a free advantage that may or may not come into play.
When it does, it's potentially quite valuable.
When it does, there's no cost for having the ability anyway.
Given the rarity of pyramids...
The rarity of pyramids depends on the game group, the campaign, and the adventure(s) in question.
There's no way to accurately claim that they're either rare or common without knowing the details.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Except that they can do pretty much everything that humans can do, plus more, and they don't really have a downside to compensate for the bonus stuff.
Not that much more...
How much more exactly are you talking about?
Because so far, I've only said "more."
And you seem to agree with that:
Atlanteans can do pretty much everything that humans can do, plus MORE.
Which is all I've been saying.
No idea why this is a controversial statement.