Anyone cleaned up wormwood yet?

[flatline]

It occurred to me that with all the power creep over the last 15 years that the Unholy and all his minions, while numerous, are only a low to medium difficulty threat by current standards.

Has anyone had a party completely clean up wormwood yet?

There should be lots of ways to do it now. The most obvious is to bring in a handful of power armor from phase world. Force fields, energy weapons that never run our of ammo, and superior flying abilities would make you almost completely invulnerable against the forces of the Unholy and you'd have the firepower to wipe out the creeping towers without any trouble at all.

Heck, the only difficulty would be finding the Unholy in the first place. He can't even dimensional teleport to escape since he's bound to wormwood...

Hmm...now I'm sad.

--flatline

[Armorlord]

Oddly, I can't picture a tech-heavy party like that making the effort, too much expense for little return. My tech players are entirely too mercenary, except for the cyborg shocktrooper.
Could picture Cosmo-Knights taking a stab at it if dragged into the fight.
Be curious to see how the setting would react to a severe weakening of the Unholy's forces.
But if big guns like any of that are brought in from off world, I'd imagine the other side being just as capable.
Generous tech-heavy party makes huge in-roads against the Unholy and eventually they are confronted with similarly powerful forces/demons/mercenaries brought in to fight them off.
The valiant Cosmo-Knight wreaks havoc, eventually forcing them to accept a pact with Dyval or Hades, resulting in the Minion War spilling over into Wormwood, and the Cosmo-Knight having to defend villages from Demon-Knights.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Both sides could call on power (creep) from elsewhere.

[Akashic Soldier]

with all the power creep over the last 15 years that the Unholy and all his minions, while numerous, are only a low to medium difficulty threat by current standards.

There has not been that much creep. I still use old material and challenge my players. Its all about how you use it. My point is the Unholy and his minions are still pretty badass and they are numerous and short of a twinked out Superhero player character who is invulnerable to all forms of attack in the Palladium system numbers mean they win. At least most of the time.

[Nightmask]

Cleaning up wormwood wouldn't be that easy, particularly if relying on advanced technology as the planet simply doesn't have local resources you can use for repairing it so your supply lines are literally crossing into other dimensions. There's also the trouble with the Church, the largest political/military/religious faction which is highly corrupt and is NOT going to be happy with outsiders showing up stealing their thunder and threatening their power. Such people will bring about the destruction of their world rather than let someone else get the power even briefly.

Not to say that it's impossible but it'd take some seriously good trans-dimensional supply lines and at least some of the heroes being able to rally the people (who are generally apathetic) and fire them up to resist and join the heroes (being MDC beings they're far more useful than regular humans as you can skip on body armor if you have to in order to supply them with more energy weapons ).

[Jedrious]

I could see a Cadre of Outriders completely devastating the Unholy

[flatline]

There would be some fun logistical problems to work out, but anything worth doing has that to deal with.

Looking through wormwood again, it certainly wouldn't be a walk in the park, but a well financed group with access to Rifts Earth and/or Phase World for equipment could make a serious attempt. Would be one heck of a campaign. Financing might be tricky since there is little from wormwood that has value outside of wormwood (resin weapons? How much for a funny looking sword that does MD?).

--flatline

[gaaahhhh]

The main problem is that anyone capable of financing a war on Wormwood would have very little reason to do so.

[Nightmask]

The main problem is that anyone capable of financing a war on Wormwood would have very little reason to do so.

Well there might be a use for MDC humans, even being minor MDC it's still quite the step up from normal Rifts and Phase world humans who're SDC. Of course that means you're just replacing the bad guys as the conquerors of Wormwood but maybe you could couch it into a format where it sounded like a better trade. Of course you're left having to appeal to those with humanitarian concerns who'd tolerate the cost because they're 'Fighting the Good Fight' like that alien race that looks like animated suits of armor who the moment they learned of things at Wormwood rushed to send through troops without a moment's hesitation.

[flatline]

The main problem is that anyone capable of financing a war on Wormwood would have very little reason to do so.

Well there might be a use for MDC humans, even being minor MDC it's still quite the step up from normal Rifts and Phase world humans who're SDC. Of course that means you're just replacing the bad guys as the conquerors of Wormwood but maybe you could couch it into a format where it sounded like a better trade. Of course you're left having to appeal to those with humanitarian concerns who'd tolerate the cost because they're 'Fighting the Good Fight' like that alien race that looks like animated suits of armor who the moment they learned of things at Wormwood rushed to send through troops without a moment's hesitation.

We wrote a scroll of dimensional portal and gave it to a holy terror to read so that he could create a portal back to his home dimension. It worked, but the home dimension was completely empty of any intelligent life. We never did figure out what happened to the holy terror homeworld (well, we know that it was because the GM didn't want us to have easy access to an army, but we never learned the in-game reason).

But I don't know about having to profit from freeing wormwood from the Unholy. Perhaps the characters are altruistic or just looking for a challenge? Perhaps the characters hope that if the forces of darkness are defeated on wormwood that maybe the people of wormwood will become a force for good in the megaverse?

Who knows?

--flatline

[Nightmask]

The main problem is that anyone capable of financing a war on Wormwood would have very little reason to do so.

Well there might be a use for MDC humans, even being minor MDC it's still quite the step up from normal Rifts and Phase world humans who're SDC. Of course that means you're just replacing the bad guys as the conquerors of Wormwood but maybe you could couch it into a format where it sounded like a better trade. Of course you're left having to appeal to those with humanitarian concerns who'd tolerate the cost because they're 'Fighting the Good Fight' like that alien race that looks like animated suits of armor who the moment they learned of things at Wormwood rushed to send through troops without a moment's hesitation.

We wrote a scroll of dimensional portal and gave it to a holy terror to read so that he could create a portal back to his home dimension. It worked, but the home dimension was completely empty of any intelligent life. We never did figure out what happened to the holy terror homeworld (well, we know that it was because the GM didn't want us to have easy access to an army, but we never learned the in-game reason).

But I don't know about having to profit from freeing wormwood from the Unholy. Perhaps the characters are altruistic or just looking for a challenge? Perhaps the characters hope that if the forces of darkness are defeated on wormwood that maybe the people of wormwood will become a force for good in the megaverse?

Who knows?

--flatline

Well most of the criticism was regarding how Wormwood didn't have anything worth spending large amounts of resources on and I was pointing out a few possibilities. Games where things are that mercenary that they wouldn't fight such a massive evil like the Unholy don't seem all that particularly fun for myself at least. Certainly not a bad deal getting an entire world of MDC humans on your side and rescuing them from both the demons and the corrupt church that uses them. All those Apoks would certainly relish the opportunity to bring a final end to things and maybe retire (although more likely even if as suggested they'd lose their masks and powers when that day came they'd simply continue on battling evil in all its forms and take up a new OCC to fill the void). Hmmmm, an Apok turned Cosmo-Knight....

[gaaahhhh]

The main problem is that anyone capable of financing a war on Wormwood would have very little reason to do so.

Well there might be a use for MDC humans, even being minor MDC it's still quite the step up from normal Rifts and Phase world humans who're SDC. Of course that means you're just replacing the bad guys as the conquerors of Wormwood but maybe you could couch it into a format where it sounded like a better trade. Of course you're left having to appeal to those with humanitarian concerns who'd tolerate the cost because they're 'Fighting the Good Fight' like that alien race that looks like animated suits of armor who the moment they learned of things at Wormwood rushed to send through troops without a moment's hesitation.

We wrote a scroll of dimensional portal and gave it to a holy terror to read so that he could create a portal back to his home dimension. It worked, but the home dimension was completely empty of any intelligent life. We never did figure out what happened to the holy terror homeworld (well, we know that it was because the GM didn't want us to have easy access to an army, but we never learned the in-game reason).

But I don't know about having to profit from freeing wormwood from the Unholy. Perhaps the characters are altruistic or just looking for a challenge? Perhaps the characters hope that if the forces of darkness are defeated on wormwood that maybe the people of wormwood will become a force for good in the megaverse?

Who knows?

--flatline

Well most of the criticism was regarding how Wormwood didn't have anything worth spending large amounts of resources on and I was pointing out a few possibilities. Games where things are that mercenary that they wouldn't fight such a massive evil like the Unholy don't seem all that particularly fun for myself at least. Certainly not a bad deal getting an entire world of MDC humans on your side and rescuing them from both the demons and the corrupt church that uses them. All those Apoks would certainly relish the opportunity to bring a final end to things and maybe retire (although more likely even if as suggested they'd lose their masks and powers when that day came they'd simply continue on battling evil in all its forms and take up a new OCC to fill the void). Hmmmm, an Apok turned Cosmo-Knight....

It's not that it isn't worth doing for altruistic reasons, it's more that the organizations with the resources to fund wars such as this wouldn't do it without a return on their investment. It doesn't do much good to have volunteer soldiers if you don't have weapons and ammunition for them to use. Also food and medical supplies for an army isn't cheap and you have the problem of exposing your supply lines to the enemy so you need to keep a portion of your troops away from the front lines to protect those.

[SpiritInterface]

A Cosmoknight "What I did on Summer vacation."

[flatline]

With an eye towards reducing the need for supply lines...

For every party member that can learn to operate power armor, get a PA with the following:
1. nuclear powered so that fuel is not a logistical issue
2. has energy weapons powered by said nuclear reactor so that ammo isn't a logistical issue
3. has a force field to minimize repair requirements
4. has a GR flight system to allow silent operation and hovering and no flight ceiling

Perform minor repairs with Mend the Broken.

Since there are no ley lines to take advantage of on wormwood, every member of the party should be a magic user of some sort so that PPE can be easily pooled. Fortunately, many magic users (shifters, technowizards, mystic knights, temporal warriors, etc) can learn basic robot combat (sadly, not temporal wizards or undead slayers). The increased PPE regeneration of True Atlanteans would be handy, but it would probably be better to choose races with natural MDC and bio-regeneration or dimensional teleport. We'll be conserving our PPE for support purposes, so increased PPE regeneration will hopefully not be necessary.

It may be necessary to dimensional teleport someplace with ley lines periodically to make talismans, scrolls, TW items, etc.

Since repairs are PPE costly, encounters should be kept short enough that force fields are not depleted. Identify the target, swoop in, swoop out, disappear. If the target can't be destroyed before we start taking real damage, retreat unless it's a high enough value target to justify taking the damage (The Unholy or one of the Host, for example).

I've had characters that could personally finance this type of thing by the time they were level 5+ so I think this is definitely in the realm of possibility.

A cheaper route would be to not use PA, but instead personal force fields and grav packs. Ammunition and eclips for the grav packs become a logistical issue, but not insurmountable, especially if we're willing to frequently dimensional teleport somewhere with ley lines.

Just food for thought.

Edit: we need to make sure that we can damage targets protected by Impervious to Energy (or equivalent). Limited amounts of ammunition could be carried for railguns, but I'd prefer to carry TW weapons that can be recharged via PPE but still do kinetic damage (TK weapons, ice shard weapons, etc).

--flatline

[Giant2005]

The main problem is that anyone capable of financing a war on Wormwood would have very little reason to do so.

Well there might be a use for MDC humans, even being minor MDC it's still quite the step up from normal Rifts and Phase world humans who're SDC. Of course that means you're just replacing the bad guys as the conquerors of Wormwood but maybe you could couch it into a format where it sounded like a better trade. Of course you're left having to appeal to those with humanitarian concerns who'd tolerate the cost because they're 'Fighting the Good Fight' like that alien race that looks like animated suits of armor who the moment they learned of things at Wormwood rushed to send through troops without a moment's hesitation.

The humans themselves aren't the most useful thing out there but the planet's magical energy that made them MDC in the first place sure is.
I am amazed some Splugorth hasn't decided to conquer it and kill all the locals so he can breed his armies there. MDC Kydians, Kittani, Slavers and Blind Warrior Women without having to modify them has to sound extremely appealing.
They would probably even be able to find a way of having all those Wormwood specific symbiotes become useful and not die off world via Bio-Wizardry.

[flatline]

The main problem is that anyone capable of financing a war on Wormwood would have very little reason to do so.

Well there might be a use for MDC humans, even being minor MDC it's still quite the step up from normal Rifts and Phase world humans who're SDC. Of course that means you're just replacing the bad guys as the conquerors of Wormwood but maybe you could couch it into a format where it sounded like a better trade. Of course you're left having to appeal to those with humanitarian concerns who'd tolerate the cost because they're 'Fighting the Good Fight' like that alien race that looks like animated suits of armor who the moment they learned of things at Wormwood rushed to send through troops without a moment's hesitation.

The humans themselves aren't the most useful thing out there but the planet's magical energy that made them MDC in the first place sure is.
I am amazed some Splugorth hasn't decided to conquer it and kill all the locals so he can breed his armies there. MDC Kydians, Kittani, Slavers and Blind Warrior Women without having to modify them has to sound extremely appealing.
They would probably even be able to find a way of having all those Wormwood specific symbiotes become useful and not die off world via Bio-Wizardry.

Hmm...I was under the impression that the SDC->MDC benefit provided by wormwood-born humans was for humans only. Does this benefit apply to any SDC creature born on wormwood?

--flatline

[Nightmask]

The main problem is that anyone capable of financing a war on Wormwood would have very little reason to do so.

Well there might be a use for MDC humans, even being minor MDC it's still quite the step up from normal Rifts and Phase world humans who're SDC. Of course that means you're just replacing the bad guys as the conquerors of Wormwood but maybe you could couch it into a format where it sounded like a better trade. Of course you're left having to appeal to those with humanitarian concerns who'd tolerate the cost because they're 'Fighting the Good Fight' like that alien race that looks like animated suits of armor who the moment they learned of things at Wormwood rushed to send through troops without a moment's hesitation.

The humans themselves aren't the most useful thing out there but the planet's magical energy that made them MDC in the first place sure is.
I am amazed some Splugorth hasn't decided to conquer it and kill all the locals so he can breed his armies there. MDC Kydians, Kittani, Slavers and Blind Warrior Women without having to modify them has to sound extremely appealing.
They would probably even be able to find a way of having all those Wormwood specific symbiotes become useful and not die off world via Bio-Wizardry.

Hmm...I was under the impression that the SDC->MDC benefit provided by wormwood-born humans was for humans only. Does this benefit apply to any SDC creature born on wormwood?

--flatline

No, it's an adaptation to growing up in that environment, potentially humans on Rifts Earth could start being born naturally MDC but it'd likely take centuries of adaptation and even then it wouldn't be a certainty (although in a few thousand years it's theoretically possible that all of humanity could become descended from the Sea Titans from Rifts: Undersea resulting in all of mankind becoming supernatural MDC creatures).

[Armorlord]

No, it's an adaptation to growing up in that environment, potentially humans on Rifts Earth could start being born naturally MDC but it'd likely take centuries of adaptation and even then it wouldn't be a certainty (although in a few thousand years it's theoretically possible that all of humanity could become descended from the Sea Titans from Rifts: Undersea resulting in all of mankind becoming supernatural MDC creatures).

Nope. It's an effect of living there and eating the local cave food, which will, after a few years, result in bearing MDC children in any human no matter where they are from originally. Presumably this could apply to other mortal SDC creatures that eat and reproduce similarly to humans, though that isn't specifically stated.

So it isn't a human adaptation, the world of Wormwood is adapting them by some means. Presumably through some form of psychic and/or food-borne tweaking to the reproductive system, which is one of the least invasive alteration methods. Likely requires eating the cave food to term as well.

[flatline]

I'm going to start playing with the idea of creating an effect of Wormwood where non-TW technology degrades somehow to explain why someone hasn't just rifted in 200+ PAs to clean things up and why we don't see every human fighter armed with a pulse laser rifle.

--flatline

[Armorlord]

I'm going to start playing with the idea of creating an effect of Wormwood where non-TW technology degrades somehow to explain why someone hasn't just rifted in 200+ PAs to clean things up and why we don't see every human fighter armed with a pulse laser rifle.

--flatline

Not sure why you think you need to invent such a thing. You'd have to try harder to invent a possibility of 200 Power Armor troopers showing up in the first place.
Plus, as I noted before, even if they could afford or convince a foreign/merc army to show up, the Unholy is just as capable of using their Shifters and contacts to do much the same, it isn't like they are powerless.

As for the rifles, it is already established that has been a steady stream of raiding and trading, particularly on Earth (or Earths), it their attempts to get weapons, supplies, and the occasional ally. If they could get laser rifles for everyone, they would. Though there are some logistical issues they'd have to trade/raid around as well.

[flatline]

I'm going to start playing with the idea of creating an effect of Wormwood where non-TW technology degrades somehow to explain why someone hasn't just rifted in 200+ PAs to clean things up and why we don't see every human fighter armed with a pulse laser rifle.

--flatline

Not sure why you think you need to invent such a thing. You'd have to try harder to invent a possibility of 200 Power Armor troopers showing up in the first place.

I'm convinced that this type of thing is within the capabilities of player characters to pull off.

What's the going rate to hire 100 mercs in power armor for a week?

--flatline

[Armorlord]

I'm going to start playing with the idea of creating an effect of Wormwood where non-TW technology degrades somehow to explain why someone hasn't just rifted in 200+ PAs to clean things up and why we don't see every human fighter armed with a pulse laser rifle.

--flatline

Not sure why you think you need to invent such a thing. You'd have to try harder to invent a possibility of 200 Power Armor troopers showing up in the first place.

I'm convinced that this type of thing is within the capabilities of player characters to pull off.

What's the going rate to hire 100 mercs in power armor for a week?

--flatline

I'd peg it around 150-450 million plus expenses depending on how much they wanted to pre-pad the price against losses, and how much they believed the employer could cover expenses, judging by Rifts Earth rates. That's not counting the cost of a Shifter or travel/battle time through the Black Forest, Phase World is out, a force that size would blow Promethean's veil of secrecy over the existence of Wormwood. Also, you'd be looking at a month long commitment to actual make a meaningful raid against the Unholy's forces, in which case those costs just quadrupled. So, for half a billion to a billion you can deal the Unholy a serious blow.
Then the Unholy trades in some souls and treasure to hire in some retaliation, and regroup behind that.

A cycle that I imagine has played out throughout Wormwood's history, marking highs and lows on both sides.
I think you might be underestimating the Unholy, or overestimating how much a troop of power armor can do in a short amount of time.

Also remember, that Wormwood is fairly poor. They don't have any real native resources to trade, only things gained by raiding and resin items really. Similar for the Unholy, plus souls.

[flatline]

I'm going to start playing with the idea of creating an effect of Wormwood where non-TW technology degrades somehow to explain why someone hasn't just rifted in 200+ PAs to clean things up and why we don't see every human fighter armed with a pulse laser rifle.

--flatline

Not sure why you think you need to invent such a thing. You'd have to try harder to invent a possibility of 200 Power Armor troopers showing up in the first place.

I'm convinced that this type of thing is within the capabilities of player characters to pull off.

What's the going rate to hire 100 mercs in power armor for a week?

--flatline

I'd peg it around 150-450 million plus expenses depending on how much they wanted to pre-pad the price against losses, and how much they believed the employer could cover expenses, judging by Rifts Earth rates. That's not counting the cost of a Shifter or travel/battle time through the Black Forest, Phase World is out, a force that size would blow Promethean's veil of secrecy over the existence of Wormwood. Also, you'd be looking at a month long commitment to actual make a meaningful raid against the Unholy's forces, in which case those costs just quadrupled. So, for half a billion to a billion you can deal the Unholy a serious blow.
Then the Unholy trades in some souls and treasure to hire in some retaliation, and regroup behind that.

A cycle that I imagine has played out throughout Wormwood's history, marking highs and lows on both sides.
I think you might be underestimating the Unholy, or overestimating how much a troop of power armor can do in a short amount of time.

Also remember, that Wormwood is fairly poor. They don't have any real native resources to trade, only things gained by raiding and resin items really. Similar for the Unholy, plus souls.

$150M-$450M for a week? That's unrealistically high. I could straight up purchase 100 knock-off Silverhawk Attack ExoSkeletons for $100M-$150M and then train up 100 recruits to man them.

Rifting in the forces could be done by any player character spell caster with the dimensional portal spell (for instance, temporal wizards start with this spell automatically) or anyone with a couple dimensional portal scrolls.

The largest crawling tower is 24 stories tall with 144000 MDC. That's less than 30 seconds worth of attacks from 100 silverhawks to completely destroy it just using their energy weapons. If crawling towers were already being tracked by reconnaissance units before the PA were rifted in, 100's of towers could be completely destroyed in just a couple of days. The book doesn't say how many crawling towers there are, but we know there are at least 212 since that's the total of the crawling towers listed for the Unholy's cities on pages 151-156.

Would flying around destroying every known crawling tower be the best use of this force? Of course not! But it does sort of put into perspective what even this meager force would be capable of.

Finally, I know that wormwood is poor. But a party of player characters could finance this sort of thing without any assistance from the inhabitants of wormwood. For instance, one spell caster with the Talisman spell and a dozen assistants on a ley line can crank out a Talisman every 30 seconds. If you can sell a Talisman for 10k each, that's $1.2M worth of Talismans created every hour. Two easy weeks of work will generate more than enough value to purchase 100 PA and have plenty left over for other expenses. Again, this is an extreme example of an industrious group, but it should put into perspective just how doable this sort of effort could be.

I'm not saying this is the best way to do this. I'm just trying to show that it could be done.

--flatline

[Nightmask]

I'm going to start playing with the idea of creating an effect of Wormwood where non-TW technology degrades somehow to explain why someone hasn't just rifted in 200+ PAs to clean things up and why we don't see every human fighter armed with a pulse laser rifle.

--flatline

Not sure why you think you need to invent such a thing. You'd have to try harder to invent a possibility of 200 Power Armor troopers showing up in the first place.

I'm convinced that this type of thing is within the capabilities of player characters to pull off.

What's the going rate to hire 100 mercs in power armor for a week?

--flatline

I'd peg it around 150-450 million plus expenses depending on how much they wanted to pre-pad the price against losses, and how much they believed the employer could cover expenses, judging by Rifts Earth rates. That's not counting the cost of a Shifter or travel/battle time through the Black Forest, Phase World is out, a force that size would blow Promethean's veil of secrecy over the existence of Wormwood. Also, you'd be looking at a month long commitment to actual make a meaningful raid against the Unholy's forces, in which case those costs just quadrupled. So, for half a billion to a billion you can deal the Unholy a serious blow.
Then the Unholy trades in some souls and treasure to hire in some retaliation, and regroup behind that.

A cycle that I imagine has played out throughout Wormwood's history, marking highs and lows on both sides.
I think you might be underestimating the Unholy, or overestimating how much a troop of power armor can do in a short amount of time.

Also remember, that Wormwood is fairly poor. They don't have any real native resources to trade, only things gained by raiding and resin items really. Similar for the Unholy, plus souls.

$150M-$450M for a week? That's unrealistically high. I could straight up purchase 100 knock-off Silverhawk Attack ExoSkeletons for $100M-$150M and then train up 100 recruits to man them.

Rifting in the forces could be done by any player character spell caster with the dimensional portal spell (for instance, temporal wizards start with this spell automatically) or anyone with a couple dimensional portal scrolls.

The largest crawling tower is 24 stories tall with 144000 MDC. That's less than 30 seconds worth of attacks from 100 silverhawks to completely destroy it just using their energy weapons. If crawling towers were already being tracked by reconnaissance units before the PA were rifted in, 100's of towers could be completely destroyed in just a couple of days. The book doesn't say how many crawling towers there are, but we know there are at least 212 since that's the total of the crawling towers listed for the Unholy's cities on pages 151-156.

Would flying around destroying every known crawling tower be the best use of this force? Of course not! But it does sort of put into perspective what even this meager force would be capable of.

Finally, I know that wormwood is poor. But a party of player characters could finance this sort of thing without any assistance from the inhabitants of wormwood. For instance, one spell caster with the Talisman spell and a dozen assistants on a ley line can crank out a Talisman every 30 seconds. If you can sell a Talisman for 10k each, that's $1.2M worth of Talismans created every hour. Two easy weeks of work will generate more than enough value to purchase 100 PA and have plenty left over for other expenses. Again, this is an extreme example of an industrious group, but it should put into perspective just how doable this sort of effort could be.

I'm not saying this is the best way to do this. I'm just trying to show that it could be done.

--flatline

The scenario is a bit overly simplistic though, since it leaves out the impediments to even getting close enough to do that as well as all the forces that one would have to fight while trying to inflict that damage. The forces of evil aren't so weak as is being implied, and have a number of humans working with them (plus the Cathedral is working against humanity due to its corruption). It wouldn't be a simple campaign to clean the planet up even with outside weapons like Silverhawks or Glitter Boys. Not impossible but it'd take years to rally the locals and fight your way back to the primary threat. The corrupted land itself will fight against you after all, and those offworld troops better have plenty of supplies or be willing to eat the grubs that the planet supplies.

[flatline]

The scenario is a bit overly simplistic though, since it leaves out the impediments to even getting close enough to do that as well as all the forces that one would have to fight while trying to inflict that damage. The forces of evil aren't so weak as is being implied, and have a number of humans working with them (plus the Cathedral is working against humanity due to its corruption). It wouldn't be a simple campaign to clean the planet up even with outside weapons like Silverhawks or Glitter Boys. Not impossible but it'd take years to rally the locals and fight your way back to the primary threat. The corrupted land itself will fight against you after all, and those offworld troops better have plenty of supplies or be willing to eat the grubs that the planet supplies.

It is simplistic and I agree that the devil is in the details. But it's not as bad as you might think. For instance, we don't have to fight our way to the Unholy's city because there's nothing on Wormwood that could slow us down while flying at, say, 30,000 feet. Swooping out of the sky to attack a crawling tower might destroy the tower completely before any defense is mounted (remember, the typical crawling tower won't last 15 seconds against this force and the biggest won't last 30 seconds).

Personally, I'd rather buy robots to pilot the PA so I don't have to worry about any loyalty issues (or food and water issues). Also, with fatigue not being an issue for robots, the PA would never need to land, greatly reducing the types of forces that could even engage the PA.

I think I would go out of my way to not interact with the Cathedral or any wormwood forces except for information gathering purposes. There is no need to even let them know of the existence of the PA forces.

Would this work? I don't know, but I'm convinced it, or something else manageable by player characters, could work.

--flatline

[flatline]

theres' also the issue that the monsters in wormwood regenerate, have magic, and can cast magic.. and can reproduce overnight what ever losses the Silverhawks manage. They will have a hell of a time fighting just horned rats never mind any parasties they have under their power.

How quickly can a crawling tower be replaced? What will it do to morale if the most visible symbols of the Unholy's power are destroyed as fast as they can be created? What kind of drain will replacing crawling towers put on the Unholy? Power and time used to replace a crawling tower can't be used for something else. It's not detailed in the book, but I have to believe that the creation of a crawling tower is a huge ordeal (with large associated opportunity cost).

Also, I can see how parasites and such could be replaced (at an expense of PPE and time, of course, which would count as a drain on the Unholy's resources), but any losses of non-wormwood origin would have to be replaced the old fashioned way: summon or rift them in.

The destruction of hard to replace resources (crawling towers, aligned dragons, flying forces, other Hosts, etc) will, over time, severely limit the Unholy's forces. Perhaps enough to allow the Cathedral and other resistance forces to prevail.

--flatline

[Nightmask]

theres' also the issue that the monsters in wormwood regenerate, have magic, and can cast magic.. and can reproduce overnight what ever losses the Silverhawks manage. They will have a hell of a time fighting just horned rats never mind any parasties they have under their power.

How quickly can a crawling tower be replaced? What will it do to morale if the most visible symbols of the Unholy's power are destroyed as fast as they can be created? What kind of drain will replacing crawling towers put on the Unholy? Power and time used to replace a crawling tower can't be used for something else. It's not detailed in the book, but I have to believe that the creation of a crawling tower is a huge ordeal (with large associated opportunity cost).

Also, I can see how parasites and such could be replaced (at an expense of PPE and time, of course, which would count as a drain on the Unholy's resources), but any losses of non-wormwood origin would have to be replaced the old fashioned way: summon or rift them in.

The destruction of hard to replace resources (crawling towers, aligned dragons, flying forces, other Hosts, etc) will, over time, severely limit the Unholy's forces. Perhaps enough to allow the Cathedral and other resistance forces to prevail.

--flatline

Except your suggestions imply that the external forces aren't hindered far more by supply line requirements than the natives. The natives are working locally produced materials, some of which can naturally regenerate whereas high-tech warriors have no local resources at all for repairs and have to truck in everything they need from other dimensions or be unable to keep using their gear for long as it suffers unfixable damage with what's on hand. You aren't just going to fly in, destroy stuff with impunity, then dash off undamaged. Even if a few of those raids worked the enemy isn't stupid it WILL start adapting and preparing for such attacks and then casualties will pick up quckly for the imported forces.

[flatline]

Well, the goal, as always is to have as minimal logistical needs as possible. Equipment and tactics will all be chosen with this goal firmly in mind.

* Robots and power armor are both nuclear powered, so no fuel requirements.
* PA energy weapons require no ammo.
* Minor PA repairs can be made using Mend the Broken. If PA are fitted with force fields, that would help minimize damage taken.
* Using robots helps minimize our food and water requirements, and we can minimize that even further using the Sustain spell, but packing food and water is just a good idea.
* Liberal use of dimensional pockets allows us to pack more stuff from the beginning and to make any resupply trips more productive.

Tactics would revolve around swooping in, attacking the target with sudden overwhelming force, and then disappearing back into the sky before any defensive response is organized. No encounter should last more than a couple of melees. Ideally, no encounter would last longer than one "swoop" which means that each PA would only get in 2, maybe 3 shots before it flies past the target and disappears. In order for a PA to sustain damage, any forcefield would need to be fully depleted during that time, so naturally, we want to prevent that from happening.

If multiple swoops are required, perhaps PA that received significant damage to their force fields would not participate in further swoops to minimize the risk of actually sustaining damage.

I'm sure there are other logistical concerns, but I think that food, ammo, and repairs are handled pretty well with this approach.

If you have specific concerns, please let me know and I'll see if I can address them.

--flatline

[DhAkael]

Slight addendum as someone didn't ask the question in thread
TL:DR
Short answer; why?
Long answer; it's pretty obvious with Kevin Siembiada meathodicaly seperating his IP's, that the concept of "megaversal" adventures, at least canon ones, have been kaiboshed.
Phaseworld has exploded into a game of it's own practically, while Wormwood...not so much.
Magic is a loosing proposition.

Spoiler:

as magic recovery requires either blood sacrafice or days of meditation for full PPE, and ley-lines are pretty much un-tapable. .

Tech is "whatever you bring in with you; those bullets you just full-melee bursted? You're not getting them back."
And human-norm OCC's unless they have a friendly to take pity on 'em? Dead inside of a session.

Then you have the OCC's from Wormwood; most of the special abilities are inherent to the dimension/world its self.
Take the OCC away from it and well, if your GM is a pendantic rules stickler and is unwilling to adapt / modify from The Writ of Kevin, said character is going to be as useless in any other setting as a normal human in wormwood.

I don't see re-printing Wormwood as being useful or viable; now providing FREE .pdf content to update and upgrade Wormwood into the new (not exactly better) R:UE standard? That would be useful and most welcome.

[flatline]

Wormwood is probably my favorite Palladium setting even after all these years. Part of that appeal is that it can't really evolve without pulling material from other dimensions. For instance, the Unholy comes from another dimension and pulls most of his minions from other dimensions. Free humans constantly trade with and raid other dimensions for needed resources in order to continue their fight against the Unholy. The fact that almost nothing from wormwood has value outside of wormwood (except as slave stock, perhaps...how much is an MDC human worth?) pretty much guarantees that large megaversal powers won't take more than a passing interest in wormwood which preserves wormwood as a setting where player characters really can be a dominating factor.

The lack of ley lines isn't all that big a deal. Any deep cave is treated as being on a ley line and wormwood was written assuming RMB rules which means you can draw PPE from other people as long as they can't control their own PPE and aren't aware of what you're doing. This is a good thing since it gives mages a reason to stay near people rather than hole up in a sanctuary somewhere.

And for large scale plans like what this thread is discussing, bringing a stash of hundreds of talisman PPE batteries should be expected. I know I wouldn't bat an eyelash at such a thing if I were the GM. I would also expect lots of scrolls to be made whenever PPE is plentiful (scrolls of talisman, dimensional portal, mend the broken, etc).

This type of campaign would take lots of planning and hard work spanning months or years of game time just getting ready for it. But if you have that type of group, it could be an awesome campaign!

--flatline

[Armorlord]

Well, I came to just under 108 million credits just in the company's costs to pay the people involved, assuming a good outfit, and that's before we get into provisions, expenses, and how much they want to cover their ass, which branches into how expensive their gear is and concern over losses. Also, suggesting that they hire on a support group of mages to provide various useful spells increases that cost as well.
Also, you can't Rift straight to the enemy on Wormwood, with the lack of leylines there are only a handful of places you can arrive.

I'm not saying that battling the Unholy is impossible, but 100 PAs are not as overwhelming force as it feels like it is being suggested here. Delivering a massive victory in a week is more like 100 Cosmo-Knights.. but they are vulnerable to magic, so it isn't a guarantee then either.

If the player characters want to spend govermental piles of credits on an army to push back the Unholy, that is freaking awesome and I would be silently rooting for them while checking off experience bonuses for the lot of them. That's the sort of selfless heroism I'd love to see out of them more often. I just feel that 'cleaning up' Wormwood is going to take a fair amount more effort, though the domains of man will have more breathing room than they've had in ages.

[flatline]

Well, I came to just under 108 million credits just in the company's costs to pay the people involved, assuming a good outfit, and that's before we get into provisions, expenses, and how much they want to cover their ass, which branches into how expensive their gear is and concern over losses. Also, suggesting that they hire on a support group of mages to provide various useful spells increases that cost as well.

What book are you using to calculate merc rates?

Also, you can't Rift straight to the enemy on Wormwood, with the lack of leylines there are only a handful of places you can arrive.

Where does it say that dimensional portal has to open up on a ley line? I understand that naturally occurring rifts happen on lines and nexuses, but I don't ever recall reading that magically created portals have to behave that way.

I'm not saying that battling the Unholy is impossible, but 100 PAs are not as overwhelming force as it feels like it is being suggested here. Delivering a massive victory in a week is more like 100 Cosmo-Knights.. but they are vulnerable to magic, so it isn't a guarantee then either.

100 silverhawks is not an overwhelming force on a large scale, but since they aren't pinned down and are extremely mobile, they can apply overwhelming force just about anywhere they choose to attack and be gone before any organized defenses can be mounted. What else on wormwood can sustain speeds of many hundreds of miles an hour indefinitely?

If the player characters want to spend govermental piles of credits on an army to push back the Unholy, that is freaking awesome and I would be silently rooting for them while checking off experience bonuses for the lot of them. That's the sort of selfless heroism I'd love to see out of them more often. I just feel that 'cleaning up' Wormwood is going to take a fair amount more effort, though the domains of man will have more breathing room than they've had in ages.

Even if the results matched my optimistic posts, this force would not be able to safely go underground to get the Unholy. So a couple of week's worth of work to destroy known crawling towers and harass the forces of the Unholy could do a lot of damage, but some other solution to actually win the war would have to be devised (like weakening the Unholy's forces to the point that the Cathedral can mount a successful campaign against the Unholy's capitol city...don't know if they would, though...without the Unholy, the people have no reason to love the Cathedral).

This is all theoretical, of course. Maybe someday I'll have the time and group to play test it.

--flatline

[Zamion138]

if the unholy started seeing PA swooping about and mercs with heavy armor and weapons showing up in force im betting they would get to finding some allies of their own, Might take a bit but they wouldnt sit on their lorals. maybe a deal with the spulgorth or demons or devils. hire their own interdiminsional forces who knows, but they too would hire or subvert some help right quick.

[flatline]

if the unholy started seeing PA swooping about and mercs with heavy armor and weapons showing up in force im betting they would get to finding some allies of their own, Might take a bit but they wouldnt sit on their lorals. maybe a deal with the spulgorth or demons or devils. hire their own interdiminsional forces who knows, but they too would hire or subvert some help right quick.

Unlike the human forces, the Unholy has got all kinds of cash and valuables according to the book (no explanation of where these off-world riches came from, however). So the Unholy could totally do this if he wanted to. The question now becomes, why hasn't he? Is he psychologically incapable of asking for or paying for help?

--flatline

[Nightmask]

if the unholy started seeing PA swooping about and mercs with heavy armor and weapons showing up in force im betting they would get to finding some allies of their own, Might take a bit but they wouldnt sit on their lorals. maybe a deal with the spulgorth or demons or devils. hire their own interdiminsional forces who knows, but they too would hire or subvert some help right quick.

Plus odds are you'd find easier access to magical and supernatural help against the Unholy rather than technological help, since they're 'Sealed Evil In A Can' and their escape is something that would have many supernatural beings concerned. While they can't escape Wormwood (those summoned there anyway) it provides them a power base to operate from as they try to develop the means to break from their confines completely. Certainly those sorts would be more in line with aiding at a reduced cost or no cost at all such a war rather than the high-tech sorts. Heck you might even be able to find some EVIL supernatural sorts to give aid, simply to help see a rival destroyed.

[Armorlord]

What book are you using to calculate merc rates?

Rifts: Mercenaries

Where does it say that dimensional portal has to open up on a ley line? I understand that naturally occurring rifts happen on lines and nexuses, but I don't ever recall reading that magically created portals have to behave that way.

Dimensional Rifts have to be opened at a leyline nexus. What isn't wholly explained is how the two, secretly, known Rift-able locations on Wormwood function at all.

100 silverhawks is not an overwhelming force on a large scale, but since they aren't pinned down and are extremely mobile, they can apply overwhelming force just about anywhere they choose to attack and be gone before any organized defenses can be mounted. What else on wormwood can sustain speeds of many hundreds of miles an hour indefinitely?

You're talking about the heaviest concentrations of enemy, not much needs to be done to mount a defense. On the attacks themselves, they either need to take longer strafing runs, or slow down and circle, or, if they don't want to be Wild Firing, stop entirely to attack.

Even if the results matched my optimistic posts, this force would not be able to safely go underground to get the Unholy. So a couple of week's worth of work to destroy known crawling towers and harass the forces of the Unholy could do a lot of damage, but some other solution to actually win the war would have to be devised (like weakening the Unholy's forces to the point that the Cathedral can mount a successful campaign against the Unholy's capitol city...don't know if they would, though...without the Unholy, the people have no reason to love the Cathedral).

Indeed. Personally, I favor the surgical strike route, maybe with a few suicide nukes, though getting to 'em is still a problem.

Unlike the human forces, the Unholy has got all kinds of cash and valuables according to the book (no explanation of where these off-world riches came from, however). So the Unholy could totally do this if he wanted to. The question now becomes, why hasn't he? Is he psychologically incapable of asking for or paying for help?

As the equivalent to the Lord of Hades among his kind, the answer is yes. Unless hard pushed, beings of immense power are loath to have to rely on someone else's minions, preferring to abuse and add to their own minions to deal with threats. Which probably means that, when he does hire in help, it'll end up enslaved in short order. So it isn't a market he can tap too often.
Though it is worth noting that Shifters and their minions are dealt with rather commonly. I suppose the Unholy has no issues with the minions of lesser beings in the service of the Unholy..

[flatline]

Where does it say that dimensional portal has to open up on a ley line? I understand that naturally occurring rifts happen on lines and nexuses, but I don't ever recall reading that magically created portals have to behave that way.

Dimensional Rifts have to be opened at a leyline nexus. What isn't wholly explained is how the two, secretly, known Rift-able locations on Wormwood function at all.

I just read the RMB spell description for Dimensional Portal and it does not mention any sort of restrictions on where portals can be from or to. Are you confusing naturally occurring Rifts with magically created ones?

100 silverhawks is not an overwhelming force on a large scale, but since they aren't pinned down and are extremely mobile, they can apply overwhelming force just about anywhere they choose to attack and be gone before any organized defenses can be mounted. What else on wormwood can sustain speeds of many hundreds of miles an hour indefinitely?

You're talking about the heaviest concentrations of enemy, not much needs to be done to mount a defense. On the attacks themselves, they either need to take longer strafing runs, or slow down and circle, or, if they don't want to be Wild Firing, stop entirely to attack.

Are you saying that power armor can't make anything but wild shots when flying?

--flatline

[Armorlord]

I just read the RMB spell description for Dimensional Portal and it does not mention any sort of restrictions on where portals can be from or to. Are you confusing naturally occurring Rifts with magically created ones?

RUE lists it as Dimensional Portal (Rift), and Rifts plus ever other form of dimensional travel ever printed (D-Ghouls. Dimensional Teleport, Shifters, etc), require a leyline nexus to function. Also every description of portals opening has also occurred at a nexus, even Ms. Tarn's ill-fated 'jump along a leyline' that lead to one of Wormwood 's 'nexus caves' instead.
Nexuses are the cross-dimensional linking points of the Megaverse.

Are you saying that power armor can't make anything but wild shots when flying?

That is correct, firing while moving, or on/in a moving platform, is Shooting Wild (-6 to strike), at least without the WP Sharpshooting trick that reduces the penalties for firing while moving. You have to hover or land for accurate shots.

[Nightmask]

I just read the RMB spell description for Dimensional Portal and it does not mention any sort of restrictions on where portals can be from or to. Are you confusing naturally occurring Rifts with magically created ones?

RUE lists it as Dimensional Portal (Rift), and Rifts plus ever other form of dimensional travel ever printed (D-Ghouls. Dimensional Teleport, Shifters, etc), require a leyline nexus to function. Also every description of portals opening has also occurred at a nexus, even Ms. Tarn's ill-fated 'jump along a leyline' that lead to one of Wormwood 's 'nexus caves' instead.
Nexuses are the cross-dimensional linking points of the Megaverse.

Are you saying that power armor can't make anything but wild shots when flying?

That is correct, firing while moving, or on/in a moving platform, is Shooting Wild (-6 to strike), at least without the WP Sharpshooting trick that reduces the penalties for firing while moving. You have to hover or land for accurate shots.

I don't remember those things all being restricted to ley line nexus points, at best they're used because they're the easiest way to acquire large amounts of PPE which are generally necessary (you'd think for a game about RIFTS and multiversal travel that the spells and technology that allow it would be cheaper and more readily available instead of just the opposite and almost useless instead) to power those various methods of dimensiobnal travel.

[flatline]

I just read the RMB spell description for Dimensional Portal and it does not mention any sort of restrictions on where portals can be from or to. Are you confusing naturally occurring Rifts with magically created ones?

RUE lists it as Dimensional Portal (Rift), and Rifts plus ever other form of dimensional travel ever printed (D-Ghouls. Dimensional Teleport, Shifters, etc), require a leyline nexus to function. Also every description of portals opening has also occurred at a nexus, even Ms. Tarn's ill-fated 'jump along a leyline' that lead to one of Wormwood 's 'nexus caves' instead.
Nexuses are the cross-dimensional linking points of the Megaverse.

Feel free to use that as a house rule, but that's one hell of a limitation to place on Dimensional Portal that isn't actually described in the spell description. My copy of RUE came yesterday, so I have confirmed that the description wasn't updated with that limitation.

--flatline

[Armorlord]

Feel free to use that as a house rule, but that's one hell of a limitation to place on Dimensional Portal that isn't actually described in the spell description. My copy of RUE came yesterday, so I have confirmed that the description wasn't updated with that limitation.

It was updated to specifically say Rift, so it is not a house rule.

[flatline]

Feel free to use that as a house rule, but that's one hell of a limitation to place on Dimensional Portal that isn't actually described in the spell description. My copy of RUE came yesterday, so I have confirmed that the description wasn't updated with that limitation.

It was updated to specifically say Rift, so it is not a house rule.

You seem to be saying that because naturally occurring Rifts happen at ley lines and nexuses that artificially created rifts must also. That would be a house rule since no such thing is stated in the books that I'm aware of.

If I've misunderstood what you're saying, please help me to understand.

--flatline

[Armorlord]

Feel free to use that as a house rule, but that's one hell of a limitation to place on Dimensional Portal that isn't actually described in the spell description. My copy of RUE came yesterday, so I have confirmed that the description wasn't updated with that limitation.

It was updated to specifically say Rift, so it is not a house rule.

You seem to be saying that because naturally occurring Rifts happen at ley lines and nexuses that artificially created rifts must also. That would be a house rule since no such thing is stated in the books that I'm aware of.

If I've misunderstood what you're saying, please help me to understand.

--flatline

I'm noting that Rifts period are formed at leyline nexuses, or other rare special locations. I would be more lenient about it before RUE added the '(Rift)' qualifier to the spell, but if you wanted to go by older descriptions, then it would seem Dimensional Portal can be triggered from anywhere. Though you still can't target a specific destination inside the target dimension, if you want to go with just the spell description.
You have to go with information from Shifter and Dimensional Teleport before being able to target a specific nexus or dimensional teleport circle in a known destination dimension, or being able to randomly appear in a non-hostile environment.. all from another nexus, circle, or pyramid.

[Nightmask]

Feel free to use that as a house rule, but that's one hell of a limitation to place on Dimensional Portal that isn't actually described in the spell description. My copy of RUE came yesterday, so I have confirmed that the description wasn't updated with that limitation.

It was updated to specifically say Rift, so it is not a house rule.

You seem to be saying that because naturally occurring Rifts happen at ley lines and nexuses that artificially created rifts must also. That would be a house rule since no such thing is stated in the books that I'm aware of.

If I've misunderstood what you're saying, please help me to understand.

--flatline

I'm noting that Rifts period are formed at leyline nexuses, or other rare special locations. I would be more lenient about it before RUE added the '(Rift)' qualifier to the spell, but if you wanted to go by older descriptions, then it would seem Dimensional Portal can be triggered from anywhere. Though you still can't target a specific destination inside the target dimension, if you want to go with just the spell description.
You have to go with information from Shifter and Dimensional Teleport before being able to target a specific nexus or dimensional teleport circle in a known destination dimension, or being able to randomly appear in a non-hostile environment.. all from another nexus, circle, or pyramid.

Adding the word 'rift' doesn't mean that they only occur at ley line nexus points. If you're opening a hole in spacetime to another location you've created a rift, and artificially created rifts by things like magic can be opened anyplace provided you've the PPE for it (and there isn't a specific effect in place that prevents it such as a magical seal). Otherwise you've made magical research safer for mages in your setting then, since the 'accidentally tears rift in reality' failure can't occur if as you say it's impossible for rifts to be created anywhere but on nexus points.

[DhAkael]

you know, The Unholy could just use Horned Rat Demons Tied around as Crawling Horror Chaff... each one has 200 to 800 Mdc, and they have millions of those.. They wouldn't even need to get all high tech, the Silverhawk scenario would Work once or twice, and that's it. After that it's them versus endelss hordes and their units overheat and the demons begin using worm wood magic items to disrupt and destroy them.

here's another big problem for the silver hawk scenario

Crawling Towers are Living Beings, And as such, can be enchanted with IMPERVIOUS TO ENERGY. .... There Goes the ENTIRE attack plan.
and all they need is a little Dragon bone to make it permanent. and You're gonna tell me the unholy doesn't have batteries of Diabolists, Summoners, and Evil Shifters at it beck and Call?

TRUTH!

[flatline]

If the GM rules that the Impervious to Energy invocation can protect a crawling tower, so be it. There are plenty of other targets, so the PAs could still be useful.

How would a Permanence ward be used to make the effect of a spell permanent? I was under the impression that it only made other wards permanent.

--flatline

[flatline]

you know, The Unholy could just use Horned Rat Demons Tied around as Crawling Horror Chaff... each one has 200 to 800 Mdc, and they have millions of those.. They wouldn't even need to get all high tech, the Silverhawk scenario would Work once or twice, and that's it. After that it's them versus endelss hordes and their units overheat and the demons begin using worm wood magic items to disrupt and destroy them.

"...and their units overheat..."

Please explain why the PA would overheat and where the effects of overheating are described.

--flatline

[flatline]

If the GM rules that the Impervious to Energy invocation can protect a crawling tower, so be it. There are plenty of other targets, so the PAs could still be useful.

How would a Permanence ward be used to make the effect of a spell permanent? I was under the impression that it only made other wards permanent.

--flatline

Permanence wards can make any Enchantment permanent.

And spell invocations count as "Enchantments"? That seems unlikely to me.

--flatline

[flatline]

Any Spell Can be made into an enchantment. This isn't D&D.

Where is that described?

--flatline

[Armorlord]

Where is that described?

Palladium Fantasy RPG Second Edition, Page 132, for one. Permanence Wards make whatever magical effects currently on the target or area, no matter the source, permanent and always active. A couple spells also have caveats regarding side-effects of trying to make a temporary version of a spell permanent in that manner, like the one for a temporary Astral Domain.

I would question the ability to cast the standard 'Impervious to Energy' spell on a Crawling Tower though. I can't say I'd allow it to count as a simple 'other' any more than I would allow it to be cast on Wormwood itself, even before you count that it is actually just a part of said Living Planet.

[flatline]

Where is that described?

Palladium Fantasy RPG Second Edition, Page 132, for one. Permanence Wards make whatever magical effects currently on the target or area, no matter the source, permanent and always active. A couple spells also have caveats regarding side-effects of trying to make a temporary version of a spell permanent in that manner, like the one for a temporary Astral Domain.

Hmm...I'll have to look at my Palladium Fantasy 1st edition to see if it's always been that way and I just missed it or if this is a change between editions.

I would question the ability to cast the standard 'Impervious to Energy' spell on a Crawling Tower though. I can't say I'd allow it to count as a simple 'other' any more than I would allow it to be cast on Wormwood itself, even before you count that it is actually just a part of said Living Planet.

It's entirely up to the GM how he would handle that. Personally, I'd probably allow it but would rule that the PPE costs would scale somehow (probably either linearly or geometrically, but don't hold me to that...).

--flatline