Paper armor...

[13eowulf]

Why yes, I was able to provide several arguments to that effect. Arguments you thus far have been unable to refute, and none of them are based on 'the book says you cant' and in fact explicitly ignore such.

To summarize a few of the points.
-Its not cost effective.
-Its not time effective.
-Its not practical due to the time, cost, and effort involved.
-It loses any benefit when hit with any number of spells that attack the magic, like Negate Magic, or Anti-Magic Cloud.

[pblackcrow]

LISTEN UP MATE...We, AS A WHOLE, are not against using layered paper armor like the Chinese did. IN FACT, WE ARE FOR DOING THAT, and are trying to help you figure out how to do it. However, it is when YOU try to make armor indestructible by adding runes to it, that is when we are saying, "NO, you can't do that. And sorry, but not in my game your not." And presenting you with why you can not do it. And the rules do state, that you can't put runes on clothing or armor and wear it. You try it, and your GM MIGHT shoot it down or he will let you make it then make an example of it and you if you pushed him like you have on here. But GOOD LUCK WITH THAT, because if your GM has any sense he won't allow it! Get it through your bloody scull. I am sorry for my bluntness, but could we please move on!?

MOVING ON, NOW!!! Now then Lads, Lasses, Furries, etc...How much protection would you say it would get? AR, SDC, and the like. I am talking about the Chinese armor, NOT the indestructible nonsense.

[13eowulf]

I think it would fit somewhere between soft and studded leather armour.

A.R. 10, S.D.C. 30

OR
It fits between Chain and Scale armour

A.R. 14, S.D.C. 60

I cant decide between the two.

[Damian Magecraft]

I think it would fit somewhere between soft and studded leather armour.

A.R. 10, S.D.C. 30

OR
It fits between Chain and Scale armour

A.R. 14, S.D.C. 60

I cant decide between the two.

I would go with
AR 12
SDC 40
and split the difference.

[13eowulf]

I think it would fit somewhere between soft and studded leather armour.

A.R. 10, S.D.C. 30

OR
It fits between Chain and Scale armour

A.R. 14, S.D.C. 60

I cant decide between the two.

I would go with
AR 12
SDC 40

Splitting the difference, good call.

[Justthis Guy]

I think it would fit somewhere between soft and studded leather armour.

A.R. 10, S.D.C. 30

OR
It fits between Chain and Scale armour

A.R. 14, S.D.C. 60

I cant decide between the two.

I would go with
AR 12
SDC 40
and split the difference.

yes good call on the split, never indestructible! . . .. hmmm . . I wonder how the rune armour would stand up to Kormath, Kymnarchmar?

[13eowulf]

I wonder how the rune armour would stand up to Kormath, Kymnarchmar?

Are you referring to the Rune Armour in the back of Dragons & Gods?

[Justthis Guy]

I wonder how the rune armour would stand up to Kormath, Kymnarchmar?

Are you referring to the Rune Armour in the back of Dragons & Gods?

no, the rune parchment armour, I have been discussing on this thread for awhile now, I was joking, it can't be made, the end - if made the enter Kormath and he is in a bad mood .. lol

[13eowulf]

I wonder how the rune armour would stand up to Kormath, Kymnarchmar?

Are you referring to the Rune Armour in the back of Dragons & Gods?

no, the rune parchment armour, I have been discussing on this thread for awhile now, I was joking, it can't be made, the end - if made the enter Kormath and he is in a bad mood .. lol

Heh, lol
apologies, was replying from work, just kind of read and responded.

[13eowulf]

I think it would fit somewhere between soft and studded leather armour.

A.R. 10, S.D.C. 30

OR
It fits between Chain and Scale armour

A.R. 14, S.D.C. 60

I cant decide between the two.

I would go with
AR 12
SDC 40
and split the difference.

How much should it weigh? I mean paper can get heavy in large quantities, ever been hit with a phonebook?

[barna10]

Ok, let's have a serious discussion here. First, the PFRPG main book NEVER says you can't make armor out of indestructible parchment. This is the reasons it lists that try to explain why you wouldn't want to:

1) The parchment still has the consistency and mass of normal paper
2) It offers no protection vs. heat/fire
3) Binding material vulnerable to heat/fire, water, cold, etc.
4) Paper armor and clothing is stiff, uncomfortable and noisy
5) paper armor looks ridiculous and no self-respecting Diabolist would make a suit.

Now, try this on for size (from a thesis on the subject):

Zhijia (纸甲), or paper armour originated during the Tang dynasty. It was said that this form of armour was made during the reign of Tangyizong (859 – 873 CE). During the Song-Hsia Wars, thirty thousand of this form of armour was made and worn by the besieged archers of the Song dynasty in the fortress in Shanxi. It was made from a form of processed paper being one to three inches thick. Under wet conditions such as rain the material would turn even tougher making it a valuable form of defence against arrows. This was an important tactical advantage of paper armour as metal armour, despite providing a much better protection, would rust under these conditions. Other advantages of this form of armour includes its lightness allowing perhaps the greatest form of mobility among all armour styles. Lightness was essential and hence the paper armour being one of the more preferred form of armour in areas of the south where there are a large amount of rivers and forests. During the campaign by General Qi Jiguang against the Japanese pirates, a large number of his troops wore this form of armour as it was effective against the firearms of the time. In addition, it was extremely flexible as well as cheap to produce.

Now, I tend to believe academics over Game Designers. So, let's look at those reasons again:

1) The parchment still has the consistency and mass of normal paper
So what! "normal" paper was good enough to make armor out of so why wouldn't indestructible paper be better?

2) It offers no protection vs. heat/fire
what armor does?

3) Binding material vulnerable to heat/fire, water, cold, etc.
Hmm, somehow normal paper armor didn't come apart in the rain and leather armor would burn up in a fire also. Besides, "normal" paper armor would've had the same drawback and somehow it was good enough to equip entire armies with!

4) Paper armor and clothing is stiff, uncomfortable and noisy
Not according to the experts and guys that research the stuff!

5) paper armor looks ridiculous and no self-respecting Diabolist would make a suit.
I would think that any Diabolist that worked in an area where ENTIRE ARMIES were being equipped with the stuff would probably get over the "ridiculous" look of paper armor and make some decent money making some suits

Now, all the reasons stated in the PFRPG main book are mundane in nature. NONE of them address the magical nature of indestructible parchment. They all seem to say that paper armor itself is unfeasible, but yet it somehow worked in the real world? Also, the PFRPG NEVER says you CANNOT MAKE A SUIT, it only tries to say it wouldn't be worth it. I say tell that to the Chinese and Korean generals that equipped entire armies with paper armor!

[pblackcrow]

ARGGG!!!

1.) We have over ruled it! Get with the program, mate! We are off of that subject! They can make paper armor! JUST non-indestructible armor, but armor nonetheless!
2.) Wards can not be placed on clothes or armor! Sorry! If your GM wants to over rule that fine! That's between you two. END OF SUBJECT!
---------------------------------------

Okay. Cool, 12 is good. Actually, was thinking more like 13 and 50 SDC. But I'm willing to give a bit.

Question: should we let it be made regeneratable by an alchemist? If so, at what regeneration rate? So much a day, an hour, X minutes? For instance: 1 every 10? It would take like a bit over 6 hours to completely regen form 1 point.

[barna10]

ARGGG!!!

1.) We have over ruled it! Get with the program, mate! We are off of that subject! They can make paper armor! JUST non-indestructible armor, but armor nonetheless!

Fine, just cite the passage of the book where it tells you it cannot be done. Find it, please.

[13eowulf]

ARGGG!!!

1.) We have over ruled it! Get with the program, mate! We are off of that subject! They can make paper armor! JUST non-indestructible armor, but armor nonetheless!

Fine, just cite the passage of the book where it tells you it cannot be done. Find it, please.

Actually no. You want this so bad the burden is on you. YOU find the passage in the book that explicitly allows this. Then quote the book and page number. Until then, stop hijacking the thread. This is not a thread about magic armour, it is a thread about coming up with AR and SDC for the mundane kind of paper armour, the kind that was actually made.

[Damian Magecraft]

ARGGG!!!

1.) We have over ruled it! Get with the program, mate! We are off of that subject! They can make paper armor! JUST non-indestructible armor, but armor nonetheless!

Fine, just cite the passage of the book where it tells you it cannot be done. Find it, please.

PFRPG 2E MB pgs 118 to 119 under "some silly notes about indestructible paper"

[Jefffar]

Hmmm looking this one over and have some thoughts of my own here.

All of us agree that laminated paper scale armour (ie the stuff the Chinese developed) is a reasonably plausible armor to make in the Palladium world. Also, the suits would look fairly similar to conventional scale armour so wouldn't be aesthetically odd.

I personally think that the improperly named Studded Leather armour (there is no such thing, it is actually a form a Jazeraint and should probably protect similarly to scale armour) is a good benchmark for representing laminated paper scale armour, which is pretty close to the quoted stats.

As for the issue of making it indestructible.

To be honest, the time estimates made for such a suit by 13eowulf don't strike me as that far off of what a well made suit of Plate would require (and probably less time than mail).

In terms of protective value of the armour, well it is important to note that while the laminated paper scales would wind up indestructible and impenetrable, their coverage of the body was not complete. In addition, the leather thongs that bind them to the leather underneath are certainly breakable and the flexible nature of the armour can still allow the force of a blow to get through. So the result would be a less than indestructibly suit, though it's protection would be far greater than a non-magical suit would be. Probably on par with Leather of Iron in terms of AR, SDC.

Given the suit would be magical in nature and take quite a while to build, it would definitely be more expensive than a conventional suit, but then again, a suit of Leather of Iron costs 30x that of normal Plate Armour 150x that of normal Studded Leather so I think that would be reasonable market value for the magical version of the armour suggested.

Or in other words, congratulations, you have Leather of Iron.

Happy playing.

[barna10]

Hmmm looking this one over and have some thoughts of my own here.

All of us agree that laminated paper scale armour (ie the stuff the Chinese developed) is a reasonably plausible armor to make in the Palladium world. Also, the suits would look fairly similar to conventional scale armour so wouldn't be aesthetically odd.

I personally think that the improperly named Studded Leather armour (there is no such thing, it is actually a form a Jazeraint and should probably protect similarly to scale armour) is a good benchmark for representing laminated paper scale armour, which is pretty close to the quoted stats.

As for the issue of making it indestructible.

To be honest, the time estimates made for such a suit by 13eowulf don't strike me as that far off of what a well made suit of Plate would require (and probably less time than mail).

In terms of protective value of the armour, well it is important to note that while the laminated paper scales would wind up indestructible and impenetrable, their coverage of the body was not complete. In addition, the leather thongs that bind them to the leather underneath are certainly breakable and the flexible nature of the armour can still allow the force of a blow to get through. So the result would be a less than indestructibly suit, though it's protection would be far greater than a non-magical suit would be. Probably on par with Leather of Iron in terms of AR, SDC.

Given the suit would be magical in nature and take quite a while to build, it would definitely be more expensive than a conventional suit, but then again, a suit of Leather of Iron costs 30x that of normal Plate Armour 150x that of normal Studded Leather so I think that would be reasonable market value for the magical version of the armour suggested.

Or in other words, congratulations, you have Leather of Iron.

Happy playing.

Jefffar, you are a god among men. Someone that can see reason among the chaos. Thank you.

[barna10]

ARGGG!!!

1.) We have over ruled it! Get with the program, mate! We are off of that subject! They can make paper armor! JUST non-indestructible armor, but armor nonetheless!

Fine, just cite the passage of the book where it tells you it cannot be done. Find it, please.

PFRPG 2E MB pgs 118 to 119 under "some silly notes about indestructible paper"

Yes, thanks for stating for about the 10th time that this is where the book covers the subject. Now, FIND THE PASSAGE (ie words) THAT ACTUALLY SPELL OUT THAT ONE CANNOT MAKE INDESTRUCTIBLE ARMOR.

What that passages from 118 and 119 try to establish is that paper armor (not indestructible paper armor) is impossible. Reality proves this idea false. Please read it again.

[Damian Magecraft]

ARGGG!!!

1.) We have over ruled it! Get with the program, mate! We are off of that subject! They can make paper armor! JUST non-indestructible armor, but armor nonetheless!

Fine, just cite the passage of the book where it tells you it cannot be done. Find it, please.

PFRPG 2E MB pgs 118 to 119 under "some silly notes about indestructible paper"

Yes, thanks for stating for about the 10th time that this is where the book covers the subject. Now, FIND THE PASSAGE (ie words) THAT ACTUALLY SPELL OUT THAT ONE CANNOT MAKE INDESTRUCTIBLE ARMOR.

What that passages from 118 and 119 try to establish is that paper armor (not indestructible paper armor) is impossible. Reality proves this idea false. Please read it again.

you really only see what you want to see dont you? your part in this conversation is over I think.

[Display-Name-Alpha]

ARGGG!!!

1.) We have over ruled it! Get with the program, mate! We are off of that subject! They can make paper armor! JUST non-indestructible armor, but armor nonetheless!

Fine, just cite the passage of the book where it tells you it cannot be done. Find it, please.

PFRPG 2E MB pgs 118 to 119 under "some silly notes about indestructible paper"

Yes, thanks for stating for about the 10th time that this is where the book covers the subject. Now, FIND THE PASSAGE (ie words) THAT ACTUALLY SPELL OUT THAT ONE CANNOT MAKE INDESTRUCTIBLE ARMOR.

What that passages from 118 and 119 try to establish is that paper armor (not indestructible paper armor) is impossible. Reality proves this idea false. Please read it again.

you really only see what you want to see dont you? your part in this conversation is over I think.

Actually instead of finding a reasonable response to what he is asking, you are throwing a page number at him that offers no evidence that says "armor cannot be indestructible".

[barna10]

you really only see what you want to see dont you? your part in this conversation is over I think.

Really. The passages about "silliness" in the PFRPG, all revolve around the how silly it would be to make paper armor. Not magical paper armor, but regular paper armor. Since paper armor is not only not silly, but well suited to the task, it seems the writers of the PFRPG were mistaken.

If you want to keep arguing from a "Palladium can never be wrong" stand point, I will never get through to you. There is no reasoning with you.

Facts are facts. Paper armor did exist. Siembieda says that indestructible paper "has the consistency and mass of ordinary paper". Ergo, if you can make paper armor out of normal paper, you can make it out of indestructible paper.

[Display-Name-Alpha]

ARGGG!!!

1.) We have over ruled it! Get with the program, mate! We are off of that subject! They can make paper armor! JUST non-indestructible armor, but armor nonetheless!

Fine, just cite the passage of the book where it tells you it cannot be done. Find it, please.

Actually no. You want this so bad the burden is on you. YOU find the passage in the book that explicitly allows this. Then quote the book and page number. Until then, stop hijacking the thread. This is not a thread about magic armour, it is a thread about coming up with AR and SDC for the mundane kind of paper armour, the kind that was actually made.

Actually, its his thread... how can he hijack his own thread, which is for the discussion about paper armor. Adding runes to paper is quite plausible and then making armor out of it. It STARTED as a thread about putting Diabolist wards on paper armor. So, it is indeed a thread about magic armor.

[JuliusCreed]

Ok, let's have a serious discussion here. First, the PFRPG main book NEVER says you can't make armor out of indestructible parchment. This is the reasons it lists that try to explain why you wouldn't want to:

1) The parchment still has the consistency and mass of normal paper
2) It offers no protection vs. heat/fire
3) Binding material vulnerable to heat/fire, water, cold, etc.
4) Paper armor and clothing is stiff, uncomfortable and noisy
5) paper armor looks ridiculous and no self-respecting Diabolist would make a suit.

Now, try this on for size (from a thesis on the subject):

Zhijia (纸甲), or paper armour originated during the Tang dynasty. It was said that this form of armour was made during the reign of Tangyizong (859 – 873 CE). During the Song-Hsia Wars, thirty thousand of this form of armour was made and worn by the besieged archers of the Song dynasty in the fortress in Shanxi. It was made from a form of processed paper being one to three inches thick. Under wet conditions such as rain the material would turn even tougher making it a valuable form of defence against arrows. This was an important tactical advantage of paper armour as metal armour, despite providing a much better protection, would rust under these conditions. Other advantages of this form of armour includes its lightness allowing perhaps the greatest form of mobility among all armour styles. Lightness was essential and hence the paper armour being one of the more preferred form of armour in areas of the south where there are a large amount of rivers and forests. During the campaign by General Qi Jiguang against the Japanese pirates, a large number of his troops wore this form of armour as it was effective against the firearms of the time. In addition, it was extremely flexible as well as cheap to produce.

This argument is now invalid for rune parchment armor... Parchment cannot be altered in any way before placing a rune on it to make it indestructible... whether the alteration is gluing it together, writing on it or processing it in a way similar to making paper mache, it chemically alters thew parchment so that as far as the rune is concerned it isn't parchment anymore and won't work. as for the paper mache' reference in this, know this particular article... was researching paper armor myself a bit... reading a bit further down in the comments I found this in the comments...

i saw the programme to, they made some paper mache armour, and shot a chinese style recurve at a dummy wearing it, althought the presenter is a bad arhcer,lol, he hit teh target at close range on the third attempt, it stopped the arrow

My guess is, this is how the Chinese made their form of paper armor... it makes sense too... paper mache' is some pretty tough stuff... ever try breaking a pinata? The only reason a kid can with a stick is because the parents actually have to saw a break line into the thing. Hit the break line just right and boom... instant candy explosion... otherwise you're just beating the hell out of paper. But, as paper mache' it cannot be made into rune armor as the parchment 1> would be chemically altered and unable to support a rune or 2> it would be invulnerable to alteration and incapable of being made into paper mache'.

Now, I tend to believe academics over Game Designers. So, let's look at those reasons again:

1) The parchment still has the consistency and mass of normal paper
So what! "normal" paper was good enough to make armor out of so why wouldn't indestructible paper be better?

Paper mache', as I believe this armor to be composed of, is NOT normal paper... it is dozens of layers of paper chemically bonded together using thin glues and pastes, occassionally with a touch of plaster of paris thrown in for a bit of extra strength.

2) It offers no protection vs. heat/fire
what armor does?

Magical armor that grants the ability. Kind of a stretch, but in my world I allow standard item enchantments to be placed in armor as well. Don't like it? I'm betting at least one person here will allow that before they allow rune parchment armor.

3) Binding material vulnerable to heat/fire, water, cold, etc.
Hmm, somehow normal paper armor didn't come apart in the rain and leather armor would burn up in a fire also. Besides, "normal" paper armor would've had the same drawback and somehow it was good enough to equip entire armies with!

Normal paper armor, as i have noted before, was most likely made from paper mache' which is an extraordinarily resiliant substance despite being made from paper, the thing is, it's not just paper... it's paper, water, glue or paste, a touch of flour and a dash of plaster of paris if desired... all mixed together and shaped and formed and left out to dry until it essentially turned into paper lumber. granted it was more resiliant than 'normal paper' but look at everything that goes into making it. And lets face it... all armor is vulnerable to something in some way shape or form... the resistance to water noted in the article refers to something like rain. I'm sure it could stand a heavy downpour and come out well. But i don't see anybody swimming in it anytime soon and there's still only so much water damage paper can take before the fibers just give up and fall apart whether the bindings are good or not. Oh and read your article again... Chinese and Korean generals were happy to provide a large number of troops this paper armor... but entire armies? Please, you over-exaggerate your references. Somehow I doubt any general in his right mind would equip anything more than a peasant levy or even a few hundred archers with this stuff, keeping the real armor, leather and steel, for the real soldiers doing the heavy fighting up front

4) Paper armor and clothing is stiff, uncomfortable and noisy
Not according to the experts and guys that research the stuff!

Funny... I don't see any 'expert references' and 'professional research notes' saying anything about just how comfortable this stuff is... just a lot of stuff on how effective and cheap it is. And please note that the 'noisy' reference for the Rune parchment armor is directly related to using standard 9"x12" sheets of rune parchment as armor, NOT the processed paper mache' armor your article above is referring to. Yes, sheets of parchment make noise when you use it as clothing due to crinkling and crackling as it bends and twists and flexes around, just like paper does when you do the same thing to it.

5) paper armor looks ridiculous and no self-respecting Diabolist would make a suit.
I would think that any Diabolist that worked in an area where ENTIRE ARMIES were being equipped with the stuff would probably get over the "ridiculous" look of paper armor and make some decent money making some suits

No self respecting Diabolist would make a suit of armor out of sheets of rune parchment. An idea of how ridiculous it looks... make a suit of armor out of sheets of notebook papaer... the catch... you are only allowed to stich the paper together with a needle and thread... Once you're done, put it on and take a look at yourself. I'm willing to bet you'll be thinking you look "ridiculous"

Now, all the reasons stated in the PFRPG main book are mundane in nature. NONE of them address the magical nature of indestructible parchment. They all seem to say that paper armor itself is unfeasible, but yet it somehow worked in the real world? Also, the PFRPG NEVER says you CANNOT MAKE A SUIT, it only tries to say it wouldn't be worth it. I say tell that to the Chinese and Korean generals that equipped entire armies with paper armor!

true, the reasons stated are mundane in nature... but they all fully address the magical nature of the rune parchment... and they also address the fact that assembling a suit of armor using rune parchment, whether by gluing, molding or weaving, is just not going to work. Please note here... you're completely correct... it does NOT say it can't be done... it only says it WILL NOT WORK! Weave it, glue it, stitch it, tape it, spit on it and stick it together with baling wire and bubble gum... bottom line, no matter what you do, rune parchment DOES NOT WORK as armor... want a specific line that says so... let me be perfectly clear...

PFRPG pg 119, paragraph 2 lines 1 & 2: "Invariably, some brain surgeon in the player group will come up with the ingenious idea of weaving, molding and gluing parchment adorned in silver runes into indestructible, lightweight armor. However, such clever schemes 'SIMPLY DO NOT WORK'.

There... clear enough... it doesn't say you can't make the armor... yay you... big brown cheesy points for you for being right on the money there... but at least man up and accept the fact that it has been pointed out to you time and time again by myself and several others that it just won't work. Why? Yes... because the freakin' book said so! If that isn't a good enough reason for you, read the rest of the previously noted section for more specific reasonings as to why it doesn't work... still not enough? tear the damn page out of the book and throw it away! then you can at least honestly say the ruling isn't in your book and at least have half an excuse to make the armor in the first place!

Now somebody PLEASE..... get this dead horse out of here... it's been beaten down to dog meat and is really starting to stink the place up!

[pblackcrow]

I still say that his/her GM shall never let it fly! But hey...Now that that's settled may we PLEASE get back to the topic at hand? BEFORE I DECIDE TO HAVE THIS WHOLE BLOODY THREAD LOCKED AND DELETED! Author's prerogative! And please NO MORE bickering with the munchkin, we aren't going to get him/her to change his/her mind. Just ignore him/her.

Warning: Let's avoid name calling here. Thanks.

[barna10]

Yes, Julius, if you use the Mythbuster method, it wouldn't work. However, the guy that did the research for Mythbusters disagrees with you and them on the construction technique (also, there is no evidence of the Chinese, or other Asians, ever using paper mache type materials)

"There is no mention of glue or lacquer in the Wubeizhi, only stitching with silk thread. Lacquer was pretty expensive stuff. From the look of the armor in the Wubeizhi, these paper armor were scale type armor. If we assume the scales were individually made as they were in the case of metal armor, then I'm thinking that perhaps piles of paper were sewed tightly between layers of cloth, front & back. Layers of paper could easily have been cut to shape by scissors. Making small scales in this way you wouldn't have to worry about the paper shifting, nor required any highly skilled labor. Remember these were armor for the lowest foot soldiers."
http://forum.grtc.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1082

[barna10]

Again the munchkin comments. Seriously? Pathetic.

I'm pulling up real stuff for you, not opinion, and I'm the munchkin.

I'm only talking about the viability of using a material to make something, not trying to power game.

Also, a bit of a secret for you, I've been a GM for over 25 years *GASP*. You've got me laughing with all the "his GM will never or shouldn't ever allow it" comments. This is purely theoretical. It's not going to happen in a game. I would allow it and wouldn't fear it if it did come up though. Game's about a good story and some ingenious play, not power gaming or being immature and telling my players "No, because I said so!" (or some guy without a bit of knowledge about ancient armors or their construction said so)

[barna10]

Also, from the research for the Mythbusters show

"My input: Concerning resins, glues, etc, there is no indication that any of these were used on paper armor, despite what you might expect. "

[JuliusCreed]

I still say that his/her GM shall never let it fly! But hey...Now that that's settled may we PLEASE get back to the topic at hand? BEFORE I DECIDE TO HAVE THIS WHOLE BLOODY THREAD LOCKED AND DELETED! Author's prerogative! And please NO MORE bickering with the munchkin, we aren't going to get him/her to change his/her mind. Just ignore him/her.

Stats for Paper Armor? Yeah I can do that...

AR: I'd put that around the area of Hard Leather, around an 11, maybe 12 if it's thick enough. depends on the process used to make it really.

SDC: Tougher call there... paper can be pretty resistant to damage when processed right. Molded paper mache', laminated scales or plates, layered and glued strips and whatnot can be pretty tough. Ideally I can see the SDC being around 30 or so, maybe even higher, but again, wholly dependant on the method of construction.

Weight: Put this around 10 pounds or so... paper weighs a lot in bulk and binding materials are going to add even more to that

Cost: Here's a tough one... paper is NOT cheap in Palladium... 8 gold for a dozen 9"x12" sheets... 50 gold for a book of 100... and most of the references I've seen call for potentially thousands of sheets of paper. My best call... going by the average price of paper in PFRPG... easily a couple hundred, and according to stated statistics, that's being generous since a thousand sheets of paper will run about 500 minimum. But, it has been pointed out that paper armor was a cheap thing to make and use... cost for game purposes in using paper as a cheap armor alternative... 50 or less

Special notes: Paper armor can be terribly vulnerable to fire based attacks, suffering double damage when struck by a flaming attack. However, paper tends to condense and toughen when it gets wet... add 2 points to AR if the armor is wet (takes about a gallon or so to get wet enough for this benefit) Also, when wet the armor's vulnerability to fire is temporarily nullified, actually suffering only half damage from fire based attacks when fully doused for a duration of... 4 hours? (unsure of how long it would take to dry out... use your best judgement)

Hope that helps Crow... Good luck and great gaming!

[Prysus]

ARGGG!!!

1.) We have over ruled it! Get with the program, mate! We are off of that subject! They can make paper armor! JUST non-indestructible armor, but armor nonetheless!

Fine, just cite the passage of the book where it tells you it cannot be done. Find it, please.

Actually no. You want this so bad the burden is on you. YOU find the passage in the book that explicitly allows this. Then quote the book and page number. Until then, stop hijacking the thread. This is not a thread about magic armour, it is a thread about coming up with AR and SDC for the mundane kind of paper armour, the kind that was actually made.

Actually, its his thread... how can he hijack his own thread, which is for the discussion about paper armor. Adding runes to paper is quite plausible and then making armor out of it. It STARTED as a thread about putting Diabolist wards on paper armor. So, it is indeed a thread about magic armor.

Greetings and Salutations. Actually Display-Name-Alpha, no. Flip back to the first page and then look at the top. You'll see this is pblackcrow's thread. He has every right to ask for his thread to stop being hi-jacked by the concept of rune armor that barna10 brought up. So if barna10 really wants to continue debating the topic, he can start a different thread. Go back and read the start of the thread instead of making things up, please.

Though since this is my first post, I'll address the topic ever so briefly. It also says that a Diabolist will make the suit for "30,000 in gold or more." So we even have a price. Penalties are listed, and are close to the same penalties from studded leather.

Now Jefffar came up with some notes earlier and said it would be equivalent of Leather of Irons in AR and SDC, and barna10 (the advocate for the armor) thinks this is great. So let's say for instance this is the case. Taking the figures that 13eowulf put up earlier (and Jefffar agreed with and barna10 endorsed) we're spending probably at least a month (probably longer) to make this suit of armor.

So now you've spent a month or more and over 30,000 gold to get a suit that is the equivalent of a common suit of armor (though the paper armor has slightly higher noise penalties). We've spent more time and as much (if not more) money than a suit of armor readily available at any alchemist shop. This is probably why no diabolist will do it without some good money.

"You want me to do what?" *Places hands on temples.* "I mean, I could but ..."
"I'll do anything!"
*Sigh.* "Fine. But it'll cost 30,000 gold. For that you could ..."
"Deal!"
"No, wait. You don't understand."
"Did you need more? Just name your price!"
"But ... well ... yeah, okay, I'll do it for 45,000 gold."
"I'll get it right now!"

The Diabolist just paid for a suit of Leather of Iron, and some pocket change to spare (okay, some of that is going to be spent on expenses). Sure, there are easier (and cheaper) ways to do the same, so no Diabolist would do it. Also Leather of Irons (because it looks like a normal leather armor) probably blends in better (low key and less penalties). So no self-respecting Diabolist would make it for himself, but he's not above letting other people waste their money. See? Everyone is happy!

Anyways, that's all for now. Sorry pblackcrow, I'm not qualified to help on the traditional paper armor. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Display-Name-Alpha]

[justify]

ARGGG!!!

1.) We have over ruled it! Get with the program, mate! We are off of that subject! They can make paper armor! JUST non-indestructible armor, but armor nonetheless!

Fine, just cite the passage of the book where it tells you it cannot be done. Find it, please.

Actually no. You want this so bad the burden is on you. YOU find the passage in the book that explicitly allows this. Then quote the book and page number. Until then, stop hijacking the thread. This is not a thread about magic armour, it is a thread about coming up with AR and SDC for the mundane kind of paper armour, the kind that was actually made.

Actually, its his thread... how can he hijack his own thread, which is for the discussion about paper armor. Adding runes to paper is quite plausible and then making armor out of it. It STARTED as a thread about putting Diabolist wards on paper armor. So, it is indeed a thread about magic armor.

Greetings and Salutations. Actually Display-Name-Alpha, no. Flip back to the first page and then look at the top. You'll see this is pblackcrow's thread. He has every right to ask for his thread to stop being hi-jacked by the concept of rune armor that barna10 brought up. So if barna10 really wants to continue debating the topic, he can start a different thread. Go back and read the start of the thread instead of making things up, please.

yep my bad, we had been talking about it at work and he linked me to it, I naturally assumed. Either way, I DO WHAT I WANT! HONEY BADGER DON'T GIVE A....

[13eowulf]

Hmmm looking this one over and have some thoughts of my own here.

All of us agree that laminated paper scale armour (ie the stuff the Chinese developed) is a reasonably plausible armor to make in the Palladium world. Also, the suits would look fairly similar to conventional scale armour so wouldn't be aesthetically odd.

I personally think that the improperly named Studded Leather armour (there is no such thing, it is actually a form a Jazeraint and should probably protect similarly to scale armour) is a good benchmark for representing laminated paper scale armour, which is pretty close to the quoted stats.

As for the issue of making it indestructible.

To be honest, the time estimates made for such a suit by 13eowulf don't strike me as that far off of what a well made suit of Plate would require (and probably less time than mail).

In terms of protective value of the armour, well it is important to note that while the laminated paper scales would wind up indestructible and impenetrable, their coverage of the body was not complete. In addition, the leather thongs that bind them to the leather underneath are certainly breakable and the flexible nature of the armour can still allow the force of a blow to get through. So the result would be a less than indestructibly suit, though it's protection would be far greater than a non-magical suit would be. Probably on par with Leather of Iron in terms of AR, SDC.

Given the suit would be magical in nature and take quite a while to build, it would definitely be more expensive than a conventional suit, but then again, a suit of Leather of Iron costs 30x that of normal Plate Armour 150x that of normal Studded Leather so I think that would be reasonable market value for the magical version of the armour suggested.

Or in other words, congratulations, you have Leather of Iron.

Happy playing.

Jefffar, you are a god among men. Someone that can see reason among the chaos. Thank you.

I just want to point out here, that Jefffar was likening the armour to Leather of Iron armour, which has a finite amount of SDC, and can in fact be destroyed. Further you agreed with his assessment.
Meaning you are agreeing that if a Diabolist makes this armour it is still not in fact indestructible, just has a goodly amount of SDC due to the magic as part of its construction.

So to summarize we are ALL in agreement that Indestructible Armour cannot be created. But armour created by certain classes is possible, however it only serves to enhance the damage capacity of the armour, NOT render it indestructible.

Wonderful. Now that we are ALL in agreement that truly indestructible armour cannot be created lets get back to the original reason for this thread.

[barna10]

I just want to point out here, that Jefffar was likening the armour to Leather of Iron armour, which has a finite amount of SDC, and can in fact be destroyed. Further you agreed with his assessment.
Meaning you are agreeing that if a Diabolist makes this armour it is still not in fact indestructible, just has a goodly amount of SDC due to the magic as part of its construction.

So to summarize we are ALL in agreement that Indestructible Armour cannot be created. But armour created by certain classes is possible, however it only serves to enhance the damage capacity of the armour, NOT render it indestructible.

Wonderful. Now that we are ALL in agreement that truly indestructible armour cannot be created lets get back to the original reason for this thread.

I absolutely agree with the idea. The paper parts would be indestructible, but not the bindings, shirt, whatever, etc... Always said it wouldn't make the character a tank, just a little better. I didn't understand what the problem was.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I think it would fit somewhere between soft and studded leather armour.

A.R. 10, S.D.C. 30

OR
It fits between Chain and Scale armour

A.R. 14, S.D.C. 60

I cant decide between the two.

I would go with
AR 12
SDC 40
and split the difference.

The below what would be the listings for single layer parchment armors. If the above posters are talking about something different then they should be specific in what they are talking about.
Parchment armor w/o any silver runes
AR 5 SDC: 2 -10% dexterity skills, weight 5 lb.

Parchment armor with silver runes
AR 14 SDC: N/A
cutting damage is reduced by one third rounding up. blunt damage does full damage.
-10% dexterity skills 5 lb.

[13eowulf]

I just want to point out here, that Jefffar was likening the armour to Leather of Iron armour, which has a finite amount of SDC, and can in fact be destroyed. Further you agreed with his assessment.
Meaning you are agreeing that if a Diabolist makes this armour it is still not in fact indestructible, just has a goodly amount of SDC due to the magic as part of its construction.

So to summarize we are ALL in agreement that Indestructible Armour cannot be created. But armour created by certain classes is possible, however it only serves to enhance the damage capacity of the armour, NOT render it indestructible.

Wonderful. Now that we are ALL in agreement that truly indestructible armour cannot be created lets get back to the original reason for this thread.

I absolutely agree with the idea. The paper parts would be indestructible, but not the bindings, shirt, whatever, etc... Always said it wouldn't make the character a tank, just a little better. I didn't understand what the problem was.

That contradicts directly with this

So here's what I propose:

Indestructible Parchment Armor (looks like lighter colored leather armor, same construction)
[A.R. 10 versus blunt attacks, A.R. 13 versus piercing or slashing attacks (A.R. 15 for high quality workmanship)]
The armor has no S.D.C. rating since it is indestructible.

What Jefffar proposed is that Diabolist Rune Armour his similar to Leather of Iron, and has similar stats, this includes S.D.C., you agreed to this. None of the armour is Indestructible.

[barna10]

Not going to argue, but why indestructible paper suddenly be destructible again? Not that it matters. Once the bindings fall apart, the armor is useless, until repaired (just like every other type of armor).

[Jefffar]

Not going to argue, but why indestructible paper suddenly be destructible again? Not that it matters. Once the bindings fall apart, the armor is useless, until repaired (just like every other type of armor).

I never said the paper in the laminated paper scale enhanced with diabolist runes wasn't indestructable, just that the rest of the armor was. If the rest of the armor takes a pounding it still will fall apart, shed paper plates and similar. So an SDC value is appropriate.

[13eowulf]

Ok, so what are we arguing here there, flavour text or game mechanics.

The main objections as I see them is no one wants indestructible armour in their games. Even the only Rune Armour (like a Rune Weapon, only Armour) has an SDC value and is not indestructible.

We have all agreed that in the real-world past there was paper armour. This thread was started to discuss the AR and SDC for such.
Now its not a stretch for there to be a magical version of this that enhanced the capabilities of the armour, as there are magic versions of all other armour. Thus the armour still has AR and and SDC value.
Now if the flavour for this is that the SDC value represents the beating the armour can take before these magically enhanced pieces start falling apart rendering the armour 'destroyed' or 'useless' essentially offering no protection, I am ok with that.
I will note that if the latter is the case then as they become unbound the wind could take the sheets and blow them away, making this armour REALLY expensive and/or time consuming to repair.....

In regards to this. Alchemists are the ones who make most magical armours in Palladium Fantasy. Before one can become an alchemist they must first, among other things, reach level 6 in the Diabolist OCC.
The Diabolist OCC lists some very explicit restrictions regarding Magic Paper Armour.
Perhaps this is because only an Alchemist is able to figure out the secrets behind overcoming this stated restriction.
Thus, while this Magic Paper Armour may exist, the secrets to creating it lay solely with the Alchemist, as so many others....

/me extends olive branch / compromise to all involved parties....

To that end, as Damian Magecraft concluded, Paper armour made int he traditional Chinese style would have an AR of 12, and have 40 SDC
Alchemist Paper Armour may be available, but would have AR and SDC similar to that of Leather of Iron.
And the rest is all flavour.

Can't we all just.... Get Along....

[Justthis Guy]

So I went back to the beginning of the thread, it was just plain old oriental style paper armor - advantages and weaknesses.
The best reply was the humorous immunity from rocks and vulnerable to scissors
To sum it up, the laminated style of paper armor would work, I think the AR and SDC was agreed on around 13/50. sounds about right.
The digression of using runes to make invulnerable I thought was settled- can't be done.

I want to weigh in one last time on forever armor. It was the forever armor of D&D and the THACO bull crap that drove me away. Armor does take damage, but not in that system ( I heard they changed that, but they probably ripped off PB games in doing so). The idea of armor for PFRPG that never dies does not fit within the game I think. Th only things that never die are Gods and Old ones- but they can be killed too, so everything can die. So why would or could there be an armor that does not? Even rocks and diamonds wear away or can be crushed.
Taking strips of parchment, rune-ing them then weaving them together does not work either, it just layers of Idestructible Rune Parchment (IRP). once the IRP is made, then how do you create bindings for various layers and joints? So first you do all the weaving and joints and fashioning, THEN add the runes? you are talking a butt ton of strips of paper and the odds of missing one are high, ergo ipso facto, a chink in the armor. Also if done, the strips are IRP, but the weaves have gaps, the layers have gaps, chink chink chink!
Also it has been argued that it may work good against blades and arrows, but would still suck against blunts. Plate worked great vs blades and arrows, but was defeated by the mace. The idea of the jazzeraint plate style paper answers the dilemma was innovative , but suffers the same weaknesses of other IRP armor. The idea of the paper mache is great, but paper mache cannot be runed to make IRP, (parchment mache?)
The best solution for those seeking uber armor is to travel to the western kingdom and get the best enchantments place on the best armor they can have made by dwarf or kobold. There are great enchantments available at the alchemists there. Get the max extra SDC added for starters, then make that regenerating, then top it off with one, say weightless, and you got some great armor. Sure it cost several 10,000, but damn it sure is great on you! I forget waht the limit is on enchantments for armor but I think it is 3 like for weapons.

To conclude - no uber IRP armor. making other paper armor should be fine, and should maybe be added to the PB oriental arms and castles book ( did anyone check in that?) Best solution is to use standard armor and buy the best enchantments possible for it and start with the superior armor of dwarven or kobold make (Jotan if you are a giant)
This "munchkin" is leaving the thread.
Justthis Guy.

[pblackcrow]

Would someone PLEASE start a new thread? This one has been hijacked too much. I'm sorry!!!

[Display-Name-Alpha]

Would someone PLEASE start a new thread? This one has been hijacked too much. I'm sorry!!!

I dont understand how you think it has been hi-jacked, everyone is still discussing paper armor.

[13eowulf]

Would someone PLEASE start a new thread? This one has been hijacked too much. I'm sorry!!!

I dont understand how you think it has been hi-jacked, everyone is still discussing paper armor.

I can understand it, they, well, we, I am guilty of participating, were discussing Diabolist made Rune armour, not AR and SDC, and other stats, for normal paper armour.

Currently we are at AR 12, and SDC 40.

What about movement penalties or weight?

[JuliusCreed]

Would someone PLEASE start a new thread? This one has been hijacked too much. I'm sorry!!!

I dont understand how you think it has been hi-jacked, everyone is still discussing paper armor.

I can understand it, they, well, we, I am guilty of participating, were discussing Diabolist made Rune armour, not AR and SDC, and other stats, for normal paper armour.

Currently we are at AR 12, and SDC 40.

What about movement penalties or weight?

Stats for Paper Armor? Yeah I can do that...

AR: I'd put that around the area of Hard Leather, around an 11, maybe 12 if it's thick enough. depends on the process used to make it really.

SDC: Tougher call there... paper can be pretty resistant to damage when processed right. Molded paper mache', laminated scales or plates, layered and glued strips and whatnot can be pretty tough. Ideally I can see the SDC being around 30 or so, maybe even higher, but again, wholly dependant on the method of construction.

Weight: Put this around 10 pounds or so... paper weighs a lot in bulk and binding materials are going to add even more to that

Cost: Here's a tough one... paper is NOT cheap in Palladium... 8 gold for a dozen 9"x12" sheets... 50 gold for a book of 100... and most of the references I've seen call for potentially thousands of sheets of paper. My best call... going by the average price of paper in PFRPG... easily a couple hundred, and according to stated statistics, that's being generous since a thousand sheets of paper will run about 500 minimum. But, it has been pointed out that paper armor was a cheap thing to make and use... cost for game purposes in using paper as a cheap armor alternative... 50 or less

Special notes: Paper armor can be terribly vulnerable to fire based attacks, suffering double damage when struck by a flaming attack. However, paper tends to condense and toughen when it gets wet... add 2 points to AR if the armor is wet (takes about a gallon or so to get wet enough for this benefit) Also, when wet the armor's vulnerability to fire is temporarily nullified, actually suffering only half damage from fire based attacks when fully doused for a duration of... 4 hours? (unsure of how long it would take to dry out... use your best judgement)

Reposted for your convenience
Hope that helps... Good luck and great gaming!

[Prysus]

I can understand it, they, well, we, I am guilty of participating, were discussing Diabolist made Rune armour, not AR and SDC, and other stats, for normal paper armour.

Currently we are at AR 12, and SDC 40.

What about movement penalties or weight?

Greetings and Salutations. Well, if deciding on penalties, you probably have two good choices.

1: Use the penalties listed on page 119. These are for rune parchment, but in the end of the day still indicating paper armor. Whether it has runes or not shouldn't change the penalties.

2: If we're sticking with the "between leather/studded and chain/splint" armor comparisons, we could probably go to the penalties on page 270. Balancing between the two we'd probably get something like ... "-10% to prowl, -5% to swim or climb in paper armor." Well ... not sure if swimming would be possible. Water resistant maybe, but swimming?

For weight and cost, you'd probably have to first figure out how many sheets of paper this will take. Paper costs 8 gold per dozen sheets (9x12). If using parchment it's 15 gold per dozen (same size). Has to be enough sheets to cover the parts of the body needed, as well as thick enough to be sufficient for protection. Once you figure that out, you can probably throw a stack of papers on a scale to weigh it. Maybe not exact, but at least give an idea.

Then for cost, you'll probably have to figure supplies (you know the cost of paper already). Figure supplies, then possibly doubling the cost for time and work (which involves putting it together and treating the paper). Anyways, just the best thoughts I can give on the matter. Not really my area of expertise. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[pblackcrow]

Would someone PLEASE start a new thread? This one has been hijacked too much. I'm sorry!!!

I dont understand how you think it has been hi-jacked, everyone is still discussing paper armor.

I can understand it, they, well, we, I am guilty of participating, were discussing Diabolist made Rune armour, not AR and SDC, and other stats, for normal paper armour.

Currently we are at AR 12, and SDC 40.

What about movement penalties or weight?

DISCUSSING MY BACKSIDE! Bickering about it is more like it! *sigh*

As for the movement penalties, I would say it would be the same as scale mail, but a whole lot less on the to prowl rolls. It is not as noisy as you would think, except for on horse back, but the bees wax might have helped with that. Eh, who knows.

Actually, it would depend on how it is made.

[barna10]

According to the research it was fairly maneuverable and actually a preferred form of armor. I would say no worse than some sort of leather for penalties based on that.

*edit* The historical texts referred to it as extremely flexible and light.

[pblackcrow]

It depends on how it was made. The one my mates made was like 27 lbs? But it was made for a man who is 6' 5", so. But also, they used papyrus. A lot of it, in a hexagon scale mail design with a dragon stamped on the center of each one. Where as the one on myth busters (I'm guessing) was about 10-15 lbs or so.

It was very maneuverable. Um, I honestly don't know.

[13eowulf]

-5% movement penalty and weighs 15-20 lbs?

So we have so far:
Paper Armour
Weight: 15 lbs
Armour Rating: 12
S.D.C.: 40
Movement Penalty: -5% on applicable skill rolls


Now, as for cost... at 8-15 gold per dozen sheets, does someone want to figure that out, or is a different approach preferable?

[Gthomas41571]

Well here we go again, you can pretty much forget about sneaking, unless, its a custom fit then there is the endless papercutts, not to mention chaffing( for gods sake wear something under it), the there the fire problem .... yeah ur armour w uill hold up, but then there's the question....... Regular. Or Extra Crispy?? You can still take heat and fire Dmg. To to mention the cost to get a diabolist to create it or the costs.. then there is the NPC that always wanna see if its fullproof.. I don't think its very practical, but fun to discuss..... unless u make it completly custom fold it right and made it thick enough, to fit

[Damian Magecraft]

Well here we go again, you can pretty much forget about sneaking, unless, its a custom fit then there is the endless papercutts, not to mention chaffing( for gods sake wear something under it), the there the fire problem .... yeah ur armour w uill hold up, but then there's the question....... Regular. Or Extra Crispy?? You can still take heat and fire Dmg. To to mention the cost to get a diabolist to create it or the costs.. then there is the NPC that always wanna see if its fullproof.. I don't think its very practical, but fun to discuss..... unless u make it completly custom fold it right and made it thick enough, to fit

ok 2 things...
1: we are NOT talking about rune parchment armor
2:do your research... the Chinese were making paper armor that could stop sword thrusts over 1000 years ago.

[Gthomas41571]

Sorry I should have been more clear ,I should have quoted ZorValachan on page 1 in stead