Dragon Questions

[Hot Rod]

I've been searching for some information on dragons and can't seem to find the answers anywhere. (Checked D&G, RUE, RMB, RGMG, PW, PW2)
Does anyone have answers (preferably canon) to a few dragon questions?

1. Are dragons 'proficient' with their claws as weapons? (Either way, is there a WP Claw similar to WP Sword?)

2. Are they ambidextrous with their natural weapons? (or can they be used as Paired weapons?)

3. Do you think a version of fencing(or boxing) should work for claw users?

4. Hatchlings can only teleport themselves(RUE 159). Is there anything about held/carried/worn items going with them? (A very good reason not to start a hoard or use weapons/equipment if it nails you in place)

5. Hatchlings do not need to eat or drink as they are sustained by magic energy. (RUE159) Do they have to breathe? How long can they withstand vacuum (if at all)? (& what does a hatchling use for a spacesuit if not!)

6. Dragons are territorial, but we constantly hear about dozens in (former) Lazlo, and even a whole city of them nearby... Writers licence, or just a convenient disclaimer to prevent multiple dragons from forming a group? (Ok, there's probably no canon explanation for this one )


HR

[13eowulf]

1-3 There is an Optional Hand to Hand Dragon combat style in the RUE in the H2H section. This should address these 3 concerns.

4. For this, no real specification I am aware of, I tend to lean towards nothing carried going with them, or look at the spells that teleport and go from there.

5. You got me here, I would say yes, but mainly because it says nothing about them not needing to breathe or being immune to gas attacks.

6. No official canon I dont think, but check out Rifter #46 for an article on Dragon Society.

[MikelAmroni]

1. Are dragons 'proficient' with their claws as weapons? (Either way, is there a WP Claw similar to WP Sword?)

Best to think of their claws the same way you would a human's hands or feet. Go with what's provided in HTH: Dragon, not a W.P. That said most skills that add strike bonuses that dragons can actually take should work fine.

2. Are they ambidextrous with their natural weapons? (or can they be used as Paired weapons?)

See the above answer - basically since a human can't do that with their hands, I'd sy a dragon can't do that with their claws. That said, a pair of daggers would work perfectly for just that, and they'd do the dragon's punch damage (since it would be more than the damage of the knife) and would give you added bonuses to hit and parry based on W.P. Knife. Or if you want to get real cute, give them vambraces like the ones made for Dogboys. Same damage as punch AND good parry and strike bonuses built into the vambraces.

3. Do you think a version of fencing(or boxing) should work for claw users?

No, not really. It's not really their style, and they aren't available as secondary skills. That said if your GM wants to allow it and you can come up with a good story reason for it, why not?

4. Hatchlings can only teleport themselves(RUE 159). Is there anything about held/carried/worn items going with them? (A very good reason not to start a hoard or use weapons/equipment if it nails you in place)

The thing to remember is that hoards are not meant to be carried with you unless you have some sort of dimensional pocket. That said, as a GM, I'd allow them to carry any gear in their hands or strapped to their person (if it wouldn't fall off in the water or flying at full speed, chances are it won't during teleport either).

5. Hatchlings do not need to eat or drink as they are sustained by magic energy. (RUE159) Do they have to breathe? How long can they withstand vacuum (if at all)? (& what does a hatchling use for a spacesuit if not!)

They use magic! And the "don't have to eat" thing is news to me. I can't find it, but I guess it's in there. As to how long they can withstand vaccuum, about as long as any other MDC creature. The rules are in Phase World for that, but they aren't THAT special that they'd use different rules than most of the other critters of magic who are MD in space.

6. Dragons are territorial, but we constantly hear about dozens in (former) Lazlo, and even a whole city of them nearby... Writers licence, or just a convenient disclaimer to prevent multiple dragons from forming a group? (Ok, there's probably no canon explanation for this one )

You mean former Tolkeen? And the statement is about their lair, not where they choose to associate with and help teach at. That teleport ability is really handy for keeping one's lair out of one's political enemy's reach.

[Galroth]

You mean former Tolkeen? And the statement is about their lair, not where they choose to associate with and help teach at. That teleport ability is really handy for keeping one's lair out of one's political enemy's reach.

There is also a statement in the description of dragons that if they do live in close proximity they compete fiercly with each other until a pecking order is firmly established. These contests vary in type depending on the general alignment of the dragons involved in them.

[Ice Dragon]

1. Are dragons 'proficient' with their claws as weapons? (Either way, is there a WP Claw similar to WP Sword?)

Yes. It is shown in the extra damage and in RUE in the optional HtH:Dragon

2. Are they ambidextrous with their natural weapons? (or can they be used as Paired weapons?)

IMHO - no, but see above.

3. Do you think a version of fencing(or boxing) should work for claw users?

Not really, since a 4 legged creates need these for legs for stabilization. But if the GM allows it, way not.

4. Hatchlings can only teleport themselves(RUE 159). Is there anything about held/carried/worn items going with them? (A very good reason not to start a hoard or use weapons/equipment if it nails you in place)

Personal equipment will stay during a hatchling teleport.

5. Hatchlings do not need to eat or drink as they are sustained by magic energy. (RUE159) Do they have to breathe? How long can they withstand vacuum (if at all)? (& what does a hatchling use for a spacesuit if not!)

Hatchling and dragons in general have to breath. Vacuum will kill them - but they a magic users with spells that let them survive it for a short time.

6. Dragons are territorial, but we constantly hear about dozens in (former) Lazlo, and even a whole city of them nearby... Writers licence, or just a convenient disclaimer to prevent multiple dragons from forming a group? (Ok, there's probably no canon explanation for this one )

Dragons are territorial, but if they live to getter a hacking/pecking order is established. Their lair has not neccessarily to be in that area.

[flatline]

5. Hatchlings do not need to eat or drink as they are sustained by magic energy. (RUE159) Do they have to breathe? How long can they withstand vacuum (if at all)? (& what does a hatchling use for a spacesuit if not!)

They use magic! And the "don't have to eat" thing is news to me. I can't find it, but I guess it's in there.

I can't give you a page reference, but it's in the RUE dragon description right before the specific hatchling descriptions start.

--flatline

[Pepsi Jedi]

5. Hatchlings do not need to eat or drink as they are sustained by magic energy. (RUE159) Do they have to breathe? How long can they withstand vacuum (if at all)? (& what does a hatchling use for a spacesuit if not!)

They use magic! And the "don't have to eat" thing is news to me. I can't find it, but I guess it's in there.

I can't give you a page reference, but it's in the RUE dragon description right before the specific hatchling descriptions start.

--flatline

Just read through those pages. I don't see anything referencing their dietary needs (( one way or the other. PPE/Food/Noneed for food, ect)). Can someone cite a page and location?

[taalismn]

You mean former Tolkeen? And the statement is about their lair, not where they choose to associate with and help teach at. That teleport ability is really handy for keeping one's lair out of one's political enemy's reach.

There is also a statement in the description of dragons that if they do live in close proximity they compete fiercly with each other until a pecking order is firmly established. These contests vary in type depending on the general alignment of the dragons involved in them.

Trust me; you don't want to get caught in a shoving match between two dragons for who has right of way on a sidewalk.
Or at the flea market over some coveted piece of merchandise. Then it gets REALLY ugly.

[glitterboy2098]

You mean former Tolkeen? And the statement is about their lair, not where they choose to associate with and help teach at. That teleport ability is really handy for keeping one's lair out of one's political enemy's reach.

There is also a statement in the description of dragons that if they do live in close proximity they compete fiercly with each other until a pecking order is firmly established. These contests vary in type depending on the general alignment of the dragons involved in them.

Trust me; you don't want to get caught in a shoving match between two dragons for who has right of way on a sidewalk.
Or at the flea market over some coveted piece of merchandise. Then it gets REALLY ugly.

presumably in places like Lazlo and Tolkien there are/were a clearly defined set of rules for establishing the pecking order. even if it's just "take your fights outside the town".

personally i'd imagine dragons have an instinct for determing place in the society. things like "he's bigger than me" "he's got way more magic than me", and so on factoring in. so if they meet an dragon they don't know, unless the two are fairly close in terms of size and abilities they'll know which one has a higher place on the pecking order.
after all, the things that define a dragon's power is physical size, their magical ability, and their psionics. and they have senses that let them guage the last two, while the first is easily visable.

[Galroth]

You mean former Tolkeen? And the statement is about their lair, not where they choose to associate with and help teach at. That teleport ability is really handy for keeping one's lair out of one's political enemy's reach.

There is also a statement in the description of dragons that if they do live in close proximity they compete fiercly with each other until a pecking order is firmly established. These contests vary in type depending on the general alignment of the dragons involved in them.

Trust me; you don't want to get caught in a shoving match between two dragons for who has right of way on a sidewalk.
Or at the flea market over some coveted piece of merchandise. Then it gets REALLY ugly.

presumably in places like Lazlo and Tolkien there are/were a clearly defined set of rules for establishing the pecking order. even if it's just "take your fights outside the town".

personally i'd imagine dragons have an instinct for determing place in the society. things like "he's bigger than me" "he's got way more magic than me", and so on factoring in. so if they meet an dragon they don't know, unless the two are fairly close in terms of size and abilities they'll know which one has a higher place on the pecking order.
after all, the things that define a dragon's power is physical size, their magical ability, and their psionics. and they have senses that let them guage the last two, while the first is easily visable.

I would also imagine the type of contests would vary depending on the general alignment of the dragons involved. Those falling towards the good end of the spectrum would probably have more intellectual contests or at least friendly sorts of physical contests like sporting events in humanoid form. Those that fall on the evil or selfish end of the spectrum would probably tend more towards violent but not always lethal contests. IMO.

[taalismn]

[I would also imagine the type of contests would vary depending on the general alignment of the dragons involved. Those falling towards the good end of the spectrum would probably have more intellectual contests or at least friendly sorts of physical contests like sporting events in humanoid form. Those that fall on the evil or selfish end of the spectrum would probably tend more towards violent but not always lethal contests. IMO.

"They're planning on having a drinking contest."
"Is this a GOOD or a BAD thing?"
"Depends. To properly intoxicate a dragon, you need either MASSIVE quantities of booze, very exotic and potentially poisonous booze, or massive quantities of very exotic and potentially hazardous booze. Might be good for a betting event and some community sports entertainment or not; we could have a hazmat situation, and it's debateable whether before succumbing to a drunken coma sleeping under the table, if either contestant might just become a belligerent drunk. We definitely do NOT want one, maybe two, belligerently drunken dragons downtown going around unchecked."
"No way we can outlaw this?"
"Unlikely in the time before they start."
"...I'll issue an order to all the officers to don 'invasion' rating gear."
"I'll see if I can't recall any of our own dragon officers to officiate...from a safe, non-confrontational distance of course."

[drewkitty ~..~]

5. Hatchlings do not need to eat or drink as they are sustained by magic energy. (RUE159) Do they have to breathe? How long can they withstand vacuum (if at all)? (& what does a hatchling use for a spacesuit if not!)

There are some text in one of the PW minion war books about demons and vacuum that might be applicable to this question.

[Dr. Doom III]

5. Hatchlings do not need to eat or drink as they are sustained by magic energy. (RUE159) Do they have to breathe? How long can they withstand vacuum (if at all)? (& what does a hatchling use for a spacesuit if not!)

There are some text in the F3G book (DB13) about demons and vacuum that might be applicable to this question.

PFRPG Adventures in the Northern Wilderness
The dragon Ceratus Dominus came to the Palladium world from space.

[Hot Rod]

Thanks for the suggestions all.

We are using the Dragon H-H, and the dragon does not really need the + strike bonus for lacking a WP claw (etc, he does get Special interest skills as he goes up levels not just SS) to match the cyber knight's WP Paired, Boxing, Fencing & WP Sword. He does have other options after all and he'd better use them because in a duel type situation he'd lose.

I'll definitely check out that Rifter (& F3G) Reference, have not read those yet.

[Hot Rod]

5. Hatchlings do not need to eat or drink as they are sustained by magic energy. (RUE159) Do they have to breathe? How long can they withstand vacuum (if at all)? (& what does a hatchling use for a spacesuit if not!)

They use magic! And the "don't have to eat" thing is news to me. I can't find it, but I guess it's in there.

I can't give you a page reference, but it's in the RUE dragon description right before the specific hatchling descriptions start.

--flatline

Just read through those pages. I don't see anything referencing their dietary needs (( one way or the other. PPE/Food/Noneed for food, ect)). Can someone cite a page and location?

RUE 159 under "Hatchling's Size" Last Sentence: "As creatures of magic, they actually absorb and are sustained by magic energy."

[Pepsi Jedi]

Thanks.

[Hot Rod]

For anyone else interested in the survive-ability of SN beings in space, Dimensional Outbreak P99 states that SN beings take 1d4 rounds to adjust to vacuum, and thereafter are unaffected (penalties to initiative, bonuses and # attacks during adjustment). Demons & Deevils can even spell cast in vacuum (but takes 2x as long and requires rolling under a certain %). Gargoyles (non-SN MDC D-Bees [triax &NGR197]) are also included in this category and have the ability to adapt & survive vacuum with no side effects. (Thanks for the Reference Drewkitty) Not sure how much of this applies to 'Creatures of Magic', but if Gargoyles are able to survive & attack in space w/o suits that opens it up to pretty much any MDC being...

Have not found the Rifter article yet.

[G]

The last time I played a dragon I created a version of HTH dragon as I went (its not like there is a school, I was practicing and creating it myself as I went - this was long before UE).

Boxing doesn't give you the same benefits as say, using paired brass knuckles...a flaw in the system. I handled it with HTH Dragon.

I teleported myself with all my gear.

When I asked the question about eating, my GM decided it was exactly the same as the spell "sustain"...which was easy.

There are actually a few different cities of dragons, one in south america, Tolkeen had a city of dragons, plus a few others...part of it comes from the fact that they are powerful enough to protect themselves and don't need to group up, but when they do they need to be careful of creating enemies as they live a long time.

[Damian Magecraft]

5. Hatchlings do not need to eat or drink as they are sustained by magic energy. (RUE159) Do they have to breathe? How long can they withstand vacuum (if at all)? (& what does a hatchling use for a spacesuit if not!)

They use magic! And the "don't have to eat" thing is news to me. I can't find it, but I guess it's in there.

I can't give you a page reference, but it's in the RUE dragon description right before the specific hatchling descriptions start.

--flatline

Just read through those pages. I don't see anything referencing their dietary needs (( one way or the other. PPE/Food/Noneed for food, ect)). Can someone cite a page and location?

RUE 159 under "Hatchling's Size" Last Sentence: "As creatures of magic, they actually absorb and are sustained by magic energy."

Also Dragons and Gods (PF book cannot recall exact page at the moment) states in the beginning of the dragons write ups that they have no need to eat.

[Hot Rod]

4. Hatchlings can only teleport themselves(RUE 159). Is there anything about held/carried/worn items going with them? (A very good reason not to start a hoard or use weapons/equipment if it nails you in place)

Personal equipment will stay during a hatchling teleport.

Anything official on this Ice Dragon? Any examples from the novels of hatchlings bringing their amulets & talismen (or other magic items) with them when teleporting?
Would this also apply to the hatchlings dimensional teleport? (half usual chance & must be performed on a nexus point)

G : 'Sustain' spell seems reasonable, esp. considering dragons also have that "little need of sleep" thing going (D&G 14). Although I don't think that was the "sustained by magic" referred to in RUE 159.

[sagajr]

For anyone else interested in the survive-ability of SN beings in space, Dimensional Outbreak P99 states that SN beings take 1d4 rounds to adjust to vacuum, and thereafter are unaffected (penalties to initiative, bonuses and # attacks during adjustment). Demons & Deevils can even spell cast in vacuum (but takes 2x as long and requires rolling under a certain %). Gargoyles (non-SN MDC D-Bees [triax &NGR197]) are also included in this category and have the ability to adapt & survive vacuum with no side effects. (Thanks for the Reference Drewkitty) Not sure how much of this applies to 'Creatures of Magic', but if Gargoyles are able to survive & attack in space w/o suits that opens it up to pretty much any MDC being...

Have not found the Rifter article yet.

Gargoyles are SN creatures (sub-demons, just like the brodkil, and this is mentioned both in conversion book 1 and in the Hades DMB), not simple MDC creatures. The aformentioned rule specifically applies to the supernatural creatures (e.g. demons, sub-demons, deevils, angels, gods, elementals) not to every creature with MDC stat (be it creature of magic like a dragon, sphinx, faerie or just a very resistant mortal creature with SN PE and MDC instead of HP and SDC stats). Just because some creature have SN PE, this won't qualify it supernatural creature.

[cornholioprime]

5. Hatchlings do not need to eat or drink as they are sustained by magic energy. (RUE159) Do they have to breathe? How long can they withstand vacuum (if at all)? (& what does a hatchling use for a spacesuit if not!)

HR

Dragons are Creatures Of Magic, which is a catch-all term for creatures who have innate magical powers but otherwise conform to the rules of Biology (unlike true supernatural creatures such as Vampires, Demons and the Undead).

If a particular Dragon or Dragon R.C.C. -or any other Creature Of Magic, for that matter -doesn't have a description that goes along the lines of "doesn't need to breathe," then it has to breathe normally just like the rest of us.

[cornholioprime]

For anyone else interested in the survive-ability of SN beings in space, Dimensional Outbreak P99 states that SN beings take 1d4 rounds to adjust to vacuum, and thereafter are unaffected (penalties to initiative, bonuses and # attacks during adjustment). Demons & Deevils can even spell cast in vacuum (but takes 2x as long and requires rolling under a certain %). Gargoyles (non-SN MDC D-Bees [triax &NGR197]) are also included in this category and have the ability to adapt & survive vacuum with no side effects. (Thanks for the Reference Drewkitty) Not sure how much of this applies to 'Creatures of Magic', but if Gargoyles are able to survive & attack in space w/o suits that opens it up to pretty much any MDC being...

Have not found the Rifter article yet.

Gargoyles are SN creatures (sub-demons, just like the brodkil, and this is mentioned both in conversion book 1 and in the Hades DMB), not simple MDC creatures. The aformentioned rule specifically applies to the supernatural creatures (e.g. demons, sub-demons, deevils, angels, gods, elementals) not to every creature with MDC stat (be it creature of magic like a dragon, sphinx, faerie or just a very resistant mortal creature with SN PE and MDC instead of HP and SDC stats). Just because some creature have SN PE, this won't qualify it supernatural creature.

Actually, Sub-Demons (so far, the Brodkil and the Gargoyles) are Creatures Of Magic, not True Supernatural Creatures like the rest of Palladium Demonkind.
(Technically, only those Gargoyle sub-species with innate magical powers would be classified as Creatures Of Magic.)

As such, while their MDC bodies would be able to withstand hard vacuum, they would still need to breathe in space.

[Gamer]

Actually, Sub-Demons (so far, the Brodkil and the Gargoyles) are Creatures Of Magic, not True Supernatural Creatures like the rest of Palladium Demonkind.

Ok you lost me, Ive never heard them be considered creatures of magic, and if they are then how are they getting the bionic and psynetics implanted when it specifically says you can't with creatures of magic..
They are sub demons, very low end supernatural beings from what I have been reading.
The spell constrain being is used for controlling lesser supernatural beings and lists gargoyles and brodkil as subdemons and the spell does not work on non supernatural beings like faeries and dragons.
Dragons are Faeries are creatures of magic.

[cornholioprime]

Actually, Sub-Demons (so far, the Brodkil and the Gargoyles) are Creatures Of Magic, not True Supernatural Creatures like the rest of Palladium Demonkind.

Ok you lost me, Ive never heard them be considered creatures of magic, and if they are then how are they getting the bionic and psynetics implanted when it specifically says you can't with creatures of magic..
They are sub demons, very low end supernatural beings from what I have been reading.
The spell constrain being is used for controlling lesser supernatural beings and lists gargoyles and brodkil as subdemons and the spell does not work on non supernatural beings like faeries and dragons.
Dragons are Faeries are creatures of magic.

All creatures of magic are 'supernatural' beings.

However, not all supernatural beings are Creatures of Magic.

The only definition of "Creature Of Magic" that really applies is "a creature with innate, mystical abilities, but which retains most if not all of the basic, 'mortal,' biological functions."

Creatures like Demons, Deevils, Elementals, Alien Intelligences (at least all of them except the Splugorth )and The Undead don't qualify as Creatures of Magic because, amongst other things, their bodies don't conform to the laws of biology as we understand them, whether we are talking abut eating, reproduction, or what have you. While Gargoyles, even creatures like the Gargoyle Lords, amongst other things reproduce naturally.

[Gamer]

So I will ask once again.
WHY are gargoyles and brodkil allowed to have things that are listed impossible for Creatures of magic to have in the same very items it lists gargoyles and brodkil being able to have like bionic augmentation, spell effects and so on.

Why does numerous books specifically list gargoyles and brodkil repeatedly as sub demons and not one as creatures of magic.
You are the first I've seen that lists Gargoyles and Brodkil as creatures of magic along with dragons and faeries no book does, in fact they do just the opposite.

[The Beast]

Actually, Sub-Demons (so far, the Brodkil and the Gargoyles) are Creatures Of Magic, not True Supernatural Creatures like the rest of Palladium Demonkind.
(Technically, only those Gargoyle sub-species with innate magical powers would be classified as Creatures Of Magic.)

As such, while their MDC bodies would be able to withstand hard vacuum, they would still need to breathe in space.

Revised SB1 says brodkil are supernatural creatures (DB10 says the same about gargoyles.). The reason they can get bionics is because they have limited bio-regeneration (which I take to mean that they can't regenerate lost limbs).

[Dr. Doom III]

5. Hatchlings do not need to eat or drink as they are sustained by magic energy. (RUE159) Do they have to breathe? How long can they withstand vacuum (if at all)? (& what does a hatchling use for a spacesuit if not!)

HR

Dragons are Creatures Of Magic, which is a catch-all term for creatures who have innate magical powers but otherwise conform to the rules of Biology (unlike true supernatural creatures such as Vampires, Demons and the Undead).

If a particular Dragon or Dragon R.C.C. -or any other Creature Of Magic, for that matter -doesn't have a description that goes along the lines of "doesn't need to breathe," then it has to breathe normally just like the rest of us.

Actually dragons don't. Plus I already posted an example of a dragon flying through space to the Palladium world.

[Gamer]

A great horned Dragon named Ceratus to be precise.

[cornholioprime]

5. Hatchlings do not need to eat or drink as they are sustained by magic energy. (RUE159) Do they have to breathe? How long can they withstand vacuum (if at all)? (& what does a hatchling use for a spacesuit if not!)

HR

Dragons are Creatures Of Magic, which is a catch-all term for creatures who have innate magical powers but otherwise conform to the rules of Biology (unlike true supernatural creatures such as Vampires, Demons and the Undead).

If a particular Dragon or Dragon R.C.C. -or any other Creature Of Magic, for that matter -doesn't have a description that goes along the lines of "doesn't need to breathe," then it has to breathe normally just like the rest of us.

Actually dragons don't. Plus I already posted an example of a dragon flying through space to the Palladium world.

You need to show where Dragons don't have to breathe air.

And posting one example of one unique Dragon doesn't mean that the all Dragons, or even all other Dragons of the same species as Ceratus, is not proof all Dragons don't have to breathe. (For all we know, this Ceratus uses sustaining magics to enable him to live out there, I really can't tell from the tidbit of information that you've given us thus far.)

[cornholioprime]

Actually, Sub-Demons (so far, the Brodkil and the Gargoyles) are Creatures Of Magic, not True Supernatural Creatures like the rest of Palladium Demonkind.
(Technically, only those Gargoyle sub-species with innate magical powers would be classified as Creatures Of Magic.)

As such, while their MDC bodies would be able to withstand hard vacuum, they would still need to breathe in space.

Revised SB1 says brodkil are supernatural creatures (DB10 says the same about gargoyles.). The reason they can get bionics is because they have limited bio-regeneration (which I take to mean that they can't regenerate lost limbs).

You shall, I think, soon come to understand that a whole lot of Authors -Kevin included -throw around the word "supernatural" a whole lot more than it should be -hell, I remember at least one occasion off the top of my head where one Author even called psionics "supernatural" (it was either C.J. Carella in one of his books or Pat Nowak in Psyscape, I believe).

Again, all Creatures of Magic are 'supernatural' creatures.
But not all supernatural creatures, are Creatures Of Magic.

[Gamer]

Actually, Sub-Demons (so far, the Brodkil and the Gargoyles) are Creatures Of Magic, not True Supernatural Creatures like the rest of Palladium Demonkind.
(Technically, only those Gargoyle sub-species with innate magical powers would be classified as Creatures Of Magic.)

As such, while their MDC bodies would be able to withstand hard vacuum, they would still need to breathe in space.

Revised SB1 says brodkil are supernatural creatures (DB10 says the same about gargoyles.). The reason they can get bionics is because they have limited bio-regeneration (which I take to mean that they can't regenerate lost limbs).

You shall, I think, soon come to understand that a whole lot of Authors -Kevin included -throw around the word "supernatural" a whole lot more than it should be -hell, I remember at least one occasion off the top of my head where one Author even called psionics "supernatural" (it was either C.J. Carella in one of his books or Pat Nowak in Psyscape, I believe).

Again, all Creatures of Magic are 'supernatural' creatures.
But not all supernatural creatures, are Creatures Of Magic.

No, I don't think so.
Excerpts from books:
Mindworks
Psinetics
The Angel of Death has made and/or outfitted entire armies of brodkil, ogres and gurgoyles
with psynetic and bionic augmentation.
Psynetic implants and most cybernetic systems will NOT work on
powerful supernatural beings, shape-changers and creatures of magic.

Sourcebook 1
Brodkil a sub demon from alien dimension.

note:Because Brodkil have no supernatural, psionic or magic powers, they can benefit from bionic weapons and implants without ill effect other than losing the ability to turn invisible.

magic spells R:UE
Constrain Being
This Invocation is useful for controlling lesser supernatural creatures.
such as most entities, sub-demons (Gargoyles and Brodkil included).
Note: Possessing Entities and greater supernatural beings are not affected by this magic,
nor are non-supernatural beings such as dragons, Faerie Folk, or mortal
humans. D-Bees, or aliens.

Desiccate the Supernatural R:UE
Only supernatural beings, good or evil, including
spirits in physical form, sub-demons (Gargoyles, Brodkil, etc.),
demons, Ileevils, Elementals, Spirits of Light, demigods, godlings,
gods, avatars (the life essences of Alien Intelligences, including vampires), angels, and others. It is important to note that the sphinx, dragons, unicorns, Faerie Folk and a handful of other superhuman beings
possessing supernatural strength and abilities, but known as creatures
of magic, are not supernatural creatures (they are more magical than supernatural,
or at least not in the same way as demons and gods) and are
immune to this magic.

Gargoyles and Brodkil cannot be creatures of magic, references I find most describing them is sub-demon and supernatural not once does any of them say 'creature of magic' referring to Brodkil or Gargoyles.

So HOW can Brodkil and Gargoyles be listed as being affected by those items yet at the same time those listed excludes creatures of magic being affected by them.

This is not just Authors throwing around the word 'supernatural' this is them including said creatures BY NAME and listing that these items CANNOT affect 'creatures of magic'.

Exactly what book says they are creatures of Magic, I have never seen them referenced as such in any of them yet.
Maybe that will explain it better than

Again, all Creatures of Magic are 'supernatural' creatures.
But not all supernatural creatures, are Creatures Of Magic

And while i was looking around trying to find any verification on this creatures of magic issue i found this..
April 29, 2005:

Okay, I'll bite.

Gargoyle Mages, classified as Supernatural Creatures (the entire Gargoyle Species is collectively classified thus), should be classified as Creatures of Magic instead (has innate Earth Warlock Spells, and is flesh and blood).....

hmm...
Gargoyle Mages, according to CB1, p. 200, are "endowed with natural magic abilities through a supernatural link with elemental forces. These powers are similar to the human elemental warlock except their magic is limited to one area of elemental magic: Earth."

Which suggests that they're not born with special powers, that they get their power in the same way that a Witch, Shifter, or Warlock does.

Also:
"These powers and the lord's ability to turn into living stone would suggest that gargoyles are somehow related to elementals."

Could be interpreted to mean that they are relatives of elementals, making them something other than normal "Flesh and blood"...
But I could also see it just refer to a more metaphysical connection.

I pretty much believe now it is just Cornholio's own belief and not anything from the books.

[flatline]

Can't brodkil turn invisible as a natural ability? How is that not a supernatural ability?

--flatline

[cornholioprime]

Can't brodkil turn invisible as a natural ability? How is that not a supernatural ability?

--flatline

It's a hot mess, the way that Creatures of Magic, Supernatural Creatures, and 'sub-demons' are defined.


Something which Gamer apparently doesn't understand -yet.

Hell, Brodkil actually have MORE supernatural powers than Rahu-Men, have the SAME basic limitations (they both have to eat, reproduce naturally, and so on, and can get implants), and yet one is (correctly) called a Creature Of Magic, and the other one isn't.

Just because the creatures in question -Gargoyles and Brodkil -are almost exclusively called 'sub-demons....'

...but that doesn't mean that so-called 'sub-demons' can't also be Creatures Of Magic.

Gamer doesn't (yet) understand that when I define Gargoyles and Brodkil as Creatures Of Magic, I'm not pulling that definition from someplace moist and brown, I'm using Kevin's own words -stated multiple times across multiple books over the course of many years -to define them.

[The Beast]

Can't brodkil turn invisible as a natural ability? How is that not a supernatural ability?

--flatline

PB should just get rid of the whole Creature of Magic catagory and have all creatures as either mortal or supernatural with sub-catagories for undead, gods, AI, etc.

[The Beast]

Can't brodkil turn invisible as a natural ability? How is that not a supernatural ability?

--flatline

It's a hot mess, the way that Creatures of Magic, Supernatural Creatures, and 'sub-demons' are defined.


Something which Gamer apparently doesn't understand -yet.

Hell, Brodkil actually have MORE supernatural powers than Rahu-Men, have the SAME basic limitations (they both have to eat, reproduce naturally, and so on, and can get implants), and yet one is (correctly) called a Creature Of Magic, and the other one isn't.

Just because the creatures in question -Gargoyles and Brodkil -are almost exclusively called 'sub-demons....'

...but that doesn't mean that so-called 'sub-demons' can't also be Creatures Of Magic.

Gamer doesn't (yet) understand that when I define Gargoyles and Brodkil as Creatures Of Magic, I'm not pulling that definition from someplace moist and brown, I'm using Kevin's own words -stated multiple times across multiple books over the course of many years -to define them.

Sorry Corny, but Gamer and I have both shown that they're both supernatural creatures, not CoM.

[Gamer]

I'm using Kevin's own words -stated multiple times across multiple books over the course of many years -to define them.

Well if your not pulling them out out shoulder deep then just what books and pages are they referenced as creatures of magic.
I'm becoming certain now you are shoulder deep reaching to pull it out.

Can't find a single Reference in any of the books.
No 'creature of magic' in any book, but numerous sub demon references and a few supernatural.
You can claim I don't understand how it is, but i have read all the books I know the topic of supernatural is deluted i have gone through this forum and read the threads, I give great weight to many peoples answers on this board, mostly because what they have said does end up being backed up to some degree by the books.
There is absolutely nothing '-stated multiple times across multiple books over the course of many years -to define them.' that i can find and if it is stated that many times then should have found it by now.
Especially with OCRd pdf's using 'search'.

[zaccheus]

Can't brodkil turn invisible as a natural ability? How is that not a supernatural ability?

--flatline

It's a hot mess, the way that Creatures of Magic, Supernatural Creatures, and 'sub-demons' are defined.


Something which Gamer apparently doesn't understand -yet.

Hell, Brodkil actually have MORE supernatural powers than Rahu-Men, have the SAME basic limitations (they both have to eat, reproduce naturally, and so on, and can get implants), and yet one is (correctly) called a Creature Of Magic, and the other one isn't.

Just because the creatures in question -Gargoyles and Brodkil -are almost exclusively called 'sub-demons....'

...but that doesn't mean that so-called 'sub-demons' can't also be Creatures Of Magic.

Gamer doesn't (yet) understand that when I define Gargoyles and Brodkil as Creatures Of Magic, I'm not pulling that definition from someplace moist and brown, I'm using Kevin's own words -stated multiple times across multiple books over the course of many years -to define them.

Sorry Corny, but Gamer and I have both shown that they're both supernatural creatures, not CoM.

I'm not really sure why I'm commenting, guess I'm a glutten for punishment, but Gamer and The Beast are spot on. I'm not sure how this is even an argument but I think it's ambiguous terms and unintentional equivication. Supernatural can be used to describe almost anything in rifts, including psionics, dragons, magic users, and even almost all of the technology; it is above and beyond what is naturally possible, therefore supernatural. This definition obviously aplies to all supernatural creatures, but that does not mean everything with supernatural abilities are necessarily supernatural creatures as PB describes them (the dessicate the supernatural spell quite nicely draws a bold line between what is a supernatural creature and what isn't). Another thing to point out, yes, Creatures of Magic are supernatural, However, this does not mean they are Supernatural Creatures, again refer to the dessicate the supernatural spell.

Now I can't really answer the point of contention that started all this, whether or not dragons can breathe in a vacuum, I would rule that they can primarily because it just seems more logical to me that a creature that can dimensionally teleport as an innate ability should be able to considering there is not telling what may be on the other side of that dimensional teleport spell and a baby dragon that is curious is going to use it, probably recklessly, so either the vast majority of hatchlings would die in their first few days of life or they have to be able to breathe in a vacuum; also Dr. Doom's reference to the dragon that flew through space backs this ruling up some.

[Gamer]

5. Hatchlings do not need to eat or drink as they are sustained by magic energy. (RUE159) Do they have to breathe? How long can they withstand vacuum (if at all)? (& what does a hatchling use for a spacesuit if not!)

Is this page on the site considered a canon answer?
I don't know where these questions on that page stand on as being official.
Because it answers the above question.
It is question 57
http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/ques ... ccpcc.html

[cornholioprime]

PB should just get rid of the whole Creature of Magic catagory and have all creatures as either mortal or supernatural with sub-catagories for undead, gods, AI, etc.

Well, at least we are 100% in agreement in that particular regard.

Apart from that, perhaps the Authors might want to someday explain why, or example, Rahu-Men are Creatures of Magic, but Gargoyles somehow are not, and Brodkil somehow are not, even though all three species meet the definition of a Creature Of Magic (and I can likely find multiple other examples of CoMs from the various Conversion Books that also have the same general abilities set as the three species listed above).

See also Rifts: Game Master Guide, pg 10-11; by those two sets of definitions I stand by my assertion that of the two sub-demon types that we do know about, Gargoyles and Brodkil are sub-demons- but also Creatures Of Magic.

No, Gamer, I never said that Gargoyles and Brodkil have ever, explicitly, been named Creatures of Magic by the authors, I just said that they fit the definition (and that I therefore think that they are, no matter how many times the word 'supernatural' is thrown around).

[drewkitty ~..~]

PB should just get rid of the whole Creature of Magic category and have all creatures as either mortal or supernatural with subcategories for undead, gods, AI, etc.

Well, at least we are 100% in agreement in that particular regard.

Apart from that, perhaps the Authors might want to someday explain why, or example, Rahu-Men are Creatures of Magic, but Gargoyles somehow are not, and Brodkil somehow are not, even though all three species meet the definition of a Creature Of Magic (and I can likely find multiple other examples of CoMs from the various Conversion Books that also have the same general abilities set as the three species listed above).

See also Rifts: Game Master Guide, pg. 10-11; by those two sets of definitions I stand by my assertion that of the two sub-demon types that we do know about, Gargoyles and Brodkil are sub-demons- but also Creatures Of Magic.

No, Gamer, I never said that Gargoyles and Brodkil have ever, explicitly, been named Creatures of Magic by the authors, I just said that they fit the definition (and that I therefore think that they are, no matter how many times the word 'supernatural' is thrown around).

Welcome to the Club.
It is known that PB is ether intentionally vague about things or somehow there is some bad editing going on.

[The Beast]

I awlays thought the Rahu-Men were mortals.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I awlays thought the Rahu-Men were mortals.

While Rahu-Men are not not listed directly as CoM the text say they are giants. They are in the monster section of the Monsters and animals book, but not listed with the rest of the giants.

I would list them as a mortal race, if I was making lists of mortal races.

[cornholioprime]

I awlays thought the Rahu-Men were mortals.

While Rahu-Men are not not listed directly as CoM the text say they are giants. They are in the monster section of the Monsters and animals book, but not listed with the rest of the giants.

I would list them as a mortal race, if I was making lists of mortal races.

They're called Creatures Of Magic in the Rifts Conversion Book.

Along with the Ki-Lin Dragon, now that I remember.........and unless I'm misremembering them the wrong way, they too become MDC on Rifts Earth, they too have mortal biology, and they too can turn invisible at will.

EDIT: Pulled out the RCB. Yep, Ki-Lin are almost identical to Brodkil in terms of mortal status and innate special abilities...but one is called a Creature Of Magic and the other one is called a Supernatural creature.

Oh well, I'll shut my gob now on this subject and thread derail.