Dim Mak Cure?

[Nightmask]

first you lose your chi, then you lose your ability to heal, then you start getting disease and other nasty stuff, then death.

I think it'd be nice to come up with some rules about how people gradually get injured. There's the scrapes and stuff of everyday living that would be so minor that we don't take them into account (like getting minor bruises, cell turnover) but which, if we were not healing, might say, reduce SDC 1 point per week or something like that?

Our GM works it that once your chi is gone, you're not likely to survive long at all. He took the extreme definition of not being able to heal without chi, so if you so much as get a papercut with zero chi, you're going to bleed to death within minutes.

Unless of course you got a band-aid. Wearing a band-aid wouldn't heal the cut or make it clot, but I think the pressure basically stops the blood loss.

Discorporate.

Not to mention that discorporating once turns people into enlightened immortals Just unrefined ones.

Uh no, it doesn't. There's a risk in overusing it that one MIGHT decide not to return to physical existence and becomes an Enlightened Immortal and out of the game but one doesn't instantly become an Enlightened Immortal just from a single use of it without exception.

[Nightmask]

I may be reading these 2 abilities wrong, but I don't think so. Anyway, if one has Chi Healing and/or Negative Chi Control could they use this to rid themselves or others of Dim Mak. Neither one of those powers say they can't be, and Dim Mak says it only disrupts the natural ability to regain Chi. It says nothing about those who have learned to control their Chi.

The cure is what you say it is. To lay a Dim Mak on a PC and make it so they have no chance to recover is nothing more then proof that your GM was told no to much when they were little, or is some type of control freak. In the GM section it says that as far as PLAYERS KNOW there is no KNOWN cure. It also says NO BODY KNOWS, and that ONLY YOU THE GM KNOWS THE CURE. Sure, a cure should not be easy to obtain, and if one should be found then that in and of its self should have consequences. It also needs to be remembered that a Dim Mak needs to successfully connect to work. I could see using the beans of life as a short term (25 years) treatment for it, but It should still not be easy to be rid of it all together,

Plus they do mention people who've had the heroic or villainous willpower to stave of Dim Mak for centuries, so for someone driven enough they can find ways to continue to heal and recover even when they have their natural healing prevented. Live On Negative Chi for example, while you're vulnerable being filled with Negative Chi to attacks like Negative Chi Control would make natural healing possible while suffering from Dim Mak and filled with Negative Chi. Dim Mak also doesn't say others can't fill you with positive chi and help your body continue to heal, and of course Reverse Chi once you're filled with negative also resets your counter.

So it'd be much like being infected by AIDS, while it can't be cured currently there are people who've managed to survive for decades with it thanks to advanced medical treatment. In the same vein someone with Dim Mak and who doesn't know Discorporate can make use of these stop-gap measures to either restore their positive chi or live on negative chi until they can find a true cure.

[Nightmask]

The cure is what you say it is. To lay a Dim Mak on a PC and make it so they have no chance to recover is nothing more then proof that your GM was told no to much when they were little, or is some type of control freak. In the GM section it says that as far as PLAYERS KNOW there is no KNOWN cure. It also says NO BODY KNOWS, and that ONLY YOU THE GM KNOWS THE CURE. Sure, a cure should not be easy to obtain, and if one should be found then that in and of its self should have consequences. It also needs to be remembered that a Dim Mak needs to successfully connect to work. I could see using the beans of life as a short term (25 years) treatment for it, but It should still not be easy to be rid of it all together,

Plus they do mention people who've had the heroic or villainous willpower to stave of Dim Mak for centuries, so for someone driven enough they can find ways to continue to heal and recover even when they have their natural healing prevented. Live On Negative Chi for example, while you're vulnerable being filled with Negative Chi to attacks like Negative Chi Control would make natural healing possible while suffering from Dim Mak and filled with Negative Chi. Dim Mak also doesn't say others can't fill you with positive chi and help your body continue to heal, and of course Reverse Chi once you're filled with negative also resets your counter.

So it'd be much like being infected by AIDS, while it can't be cured currently there are people who've managed to survive for decades with it thanks to advanced medical treatment. In the same vein someone with Dim Mak and who doesn't know Discorporate can make use of these stop-gap measures to either restore their positive chi or live on negative chi until they can find a true cure.

Thats a perfect example of how I see it was intended to be played.

Glad to be of help. While the Dim Mak is certainly powerful given it only blocks your ability to personally recover or manipulate Chi as long as you've access to PC or NPC with the ability to work the kinds of spells or chi infusions I mentioned a PC can continue to heal and function while seeking a cure. It shouldn't be a certain death case where no one can do anything to restore or heal the PC wile looking to find a cure, not with explicit examples given of characters who've survived that way for decades and centuries. Plus if a GM inflicts Dim Mak on a PC he's really obligated to provide the PC some way of finding a cure, as it's very poor form and earns one the 'killer GM' label to go 'okay you've got Dim Mak start rolling up a new character'.

[Nekira Sudacne]

True enough, but the principle is the same. If the cure for Dim Mak were as easy as passing around a magic ring, there's no threat from the "uncurable" Dim Mak.

[quote="Regularguy][quote]Well, keep in mind that N&SS sets out exactly what a hypothetical cure might look like: "A sacred scroll taken by the British from Peking", it says, or "a sacred relic protected by the Ainu people of Japan", or a "secret formula inscribed on a hidden rock". I don't see that "a magic ring, possibly sacred, possibly with a secret formula inscribed on the inside of the band" is all that different.[/quote]

The key word here is "hypothetical". Anything in this, or any other, list of cures could be the cure, up to and including the magic ring idea. I'm just saying if it happens to be an enchanted ring that grants Healing Factor to whoever wears it, regardless of how much (or little) time it's worn, really just makes Dim Mak another one of those "Oh gee... another case of Dim Mak" scenarios. It'll get real boring real fast.

[quote]That said, we could two-step the complexity. Let's say my character's Enchanted Object doesn't pack a Healing Factor; it doesn't come with any Minor Super Abilities, just invisibility-at-will and the Major Super Ability of my choice. Throw in some useful skills and I figure that's a playable build, albeit one who can die from Dim Mak and can't save anyone else from it either.

Also, let's say you're playing an HU superhero who likewise can't actually cure anyone else: it's just that you have a Healing Factor -- maybe backing up Invulnerability in case someone hits you with Dim Mak (or Kaijustsu, or Open Hand Atemi, or whatever). And you've also got something else up your sleeve -- maybe Control Others, which is great for information-gathering purposes and gives you a nifty mental attack just in case you're facing someone you can't physically clobber. And since that Healing Factor makes you a natural for Chi Mastery, you've even swapped out various skills for a N&SS martial art, as per the rules on page 164. And I figure that's a playable build as well.[/quote]

Interesting how the two powers you actually mention Invulnerebility is vulnerable to, as well as Dim Mak, Though Open Hand is half damage as are the Shock and Death yells of Kaijutsu. (Stun and Force yells don't work). Beyond that it sounds workable though.

[quote]That's all straightforward enough if the Major Super Ability of my choice is Create Force Field or Divine Aura or whatever. In this case, though, it's Mimic, which means anyone who puts on the ring can duplicate your Healing Factor if and only if you're nearby. Is that far enough under the radar?[/quote][/quote]

Sure that works as far as I'm concerned. Just have the guy with Dim Mak wear the ring with Mimic, find someone with Healing Factor, and become his new best buddy for a bit. Or you could just put Healing Factor into the ring in the first place as per your original idea. I see no real difference in either scenario truth be told. I just see Dim Mak becoming the "not-so-dreaded" curse because of the ease of availability in cures. [/quote]

Well, what if your goal in the attempt is precicely to break the threat of the curse and thus undermine the touch masters?

[Nekira Sudacne]

the thing is the other arts that offer it only do so around levels 9 on average, while tien hitsu offers it at level 1.

Also, while this can vary, in most games I play in, the number of people in the world who are actually over level 6 is very rare. meaning that that the majority of people who have ju jitsu or other arts will never in their lifetimes reach the level of mastery needed to learn dim mak.

[Nightmask]

I just had an idea for curing Dim Mak in other people. Zenjoriki and other martial arts powers are not like super powers or psionics where you can only use them in your own body. Presumably they are like magic and other skills where you can use them in others'.

So, if you have a means of inhabiting another person's body (mentally possess others super psion, possession major super, perhaps others) and you had the Discorporate Zenjoriki, would you be able to make someone else's body become one with the Chi and cure of them of dim mak, as well as heal them?

This could even theoretically be used as an offensive ability if you stay permanently discorporated, though I would rule that the possessor's mind would also be lost in that case, effectively making it a kamikaze attack. Still, I could see someone using it if they thought they greater good would be served by taking someone out (say Moloch).

Generally it's just the opposite, you can't share a MA power with someone else particularly Zenjoriki. Also if you permanently discorporate you're out of the game, permanently. Explicitly stated in the text, once you make that choice you're on the path to becoming an Enlightened Immortal which takes at least decades putting you out of the game for good.

[thorr-kan]

Doesn't the Channeler OCC from Through the Glass Darkly mention the ability to change negative chi to positive chi as one of the OCC abilities?

That'd solve your Dim Mak problem.

[Nightmask]

"Healing Factor also makes the character immune to Dim Mak, and if infected with negative Chi, allows for automatically dispelling it at a rate of one point per hour" N&S pg 166 FAQ on combining HU with N&S

This makes me wonder, if this makes you immune to getting Dim Mak, what happens if you get infected with it and then get healing factor later?

This is something to consider for mutants who gain powers as they level up, Ancient Masters who gain the power through training, Mystic Bestowed/Items/Weapons who get infected as normal people and who transform to get the power, or that thing from PU or whatever where you can give normal people super powers.

I'd like to think that while HF prevents DM that it wouldn't cure it if you got it after already being hit with DM, because otherwise someone with Healing Factor and Give Power to Others (whatever that's called, still need to buy book) could go around curing things very easily.

One would think that gaining such a power after being infected with Dim Mak would automatically dispel it since your body is now so fortified as to be able to do what it couldn't before and reject it.

Generally it's just the opposite, you can't share a MA power with someone else

Why not? They're basically skills. Just look at 'One Shot One Kill' or Demon Wrestling, a lot of them are like physical skills.

Obviously something like body hardening wouldn't transfer because it's based on a response from the body, but something that is a technique is pretty much like a hand to hand skill or learning a magic spell, it's knowledge, so you should be able to use it if you inhabit someone else's body.

You can't go around sharing them because they're range-Personal in application, not range-touch. Just because they're trained abilities doesn't mean you can just teach them to anyone, they do require extensive education well beyond what's common for something like a physical skill like climbing or body building. There's at least some reason to think you need the entire basic framework of training in a particular martial art to be able to achieve the mastery necessary for something like Demon Wrestling.

particularly Zenjoriki. Also if you permanently discorporate you're out of the game, permanently. Explicitly stated in the text, once you make that choice you're on the path to becoming an Enlightened Immortal which takes at least decades putting you out of the game for good.

Permanently discorporating is something optional, you don't need to do it as a result of the power (though I recall something like a 60% chance of doing so if you try it more than once per day, since it's addictive).

I agree that discorporating puts you on the first step to becoming an EI, because you see the true state of the universe so your soul can't die and it will reincarnate if your body does. But it's a long way from there to the first refinement (by then someone has all the Zenjoriki) so I don't see any reason to remove someone from the game for having that ability. A lot of forms give Zenjoriki at level 1 and I don't think PCs who select the power at l1 are meant to be removed from play. They just have a neat way to restore all their chi and damage once per day and get a refreshing perspective on life.

Of course someone evil would be very hesitant to use the power due to the danger of addictive non-identity, and likely only do so if they would otherwise die.

Except the rules make it quite clear that you're permanently out of the game, the time required to absorb those mysteries before you reincorporate as an Immortal is evidently in the decades or centuries range. You can't simply go 'I think I'll discorporate permanently to become an immortal and return', that's explicit in the text regarding it. You either choose to discorporate permanently or overdo it and fail your save vs temptation and do so and you're out of the game, make up a new character. If it lasts a few hundred years maybe you'll get to play your Immortal character when its finally done achieving first level mastery.

Doesn't the Channeler OCC from Through the Glass Darkly mention the ability to change negative chi to positive chi as one of the OCC abilities? That'd solve your Dim Mak problem.

It does have that ability, but I don't think that would solve the problem. First off, the ability is not well defined at all, so we're not sure how it would work in N&SS. Secondly, changing negative to positive doesn't help someone who is at 0 chi, because they can't regenerate, and 0 chi is enough to stop healing, someone doesn't have to be infected with negative before that happens.

But channeling positive chi into the victim will temporarily help, giving you back the ability to heal before your chi drains away again. But it's just a stop-gap measure much like AIDS drugs don't cure the victims it just adds more time to their clock and sometimes it fails.

[Nightmask]

One would think that gaining such a power after being infected with Dim Mak would automatically dispel it since your body is now so fortified as to be able to do what it couldn't before and reject it.

Ah, but if I am the victim of a magical curse and later gain a greater save vs. magic as I level up, does the curse get removed?

Not relevant, we aren't talking a magical curse we're talking a specialized MA technique that affects the nature of chi flow and we aren't talking picking up a minor bonus we're talking a fundamental change in the physical nature of the being in question. They go from having no super-powers to having a super-power as their genetics are re-written repairing the problem caused by Dim Mak.

You can't go around sharing them because they're range-Personal in application, not range-touch. Just because they're trained abilities doesn't mean you can just teach them to anyone, they do require extensive education well beyond what's common for something like a physical skill like climbing or body building. There's at least some reason to think you need the entire basic framework of training in a particular martial art to be able to achieve the mastery necessary for something like Demon Wrestling.

I'm not referring to teaching them, I'm referring to what happens if you were to transfer your mind into another character's body, possession.

I'm thinking you would get bonuses to combat rolls, but that you would not get the attribute bonuses.

Well most likely you couldn't do anything as trying to use the techniques in a body not your own you'd be unable to manipulate the chi properly to do something like discorporate.

Except the rules make it quite clear that you're permanently out of the game, the time required to absorb those mysteries before you reincorporate as an Immortal is evidently in the decades or centuries range

No it doesn't. You're out of the game if you permanently discorporate. If you use the ability and return from the Tao, the process takes less than a melee round.

They wouldn't have a warning about using it more than once per day if it were implied that doing so took you out of the game for centuries.

Which is what I said, if you discorporate permanently for whatever reason you're out of the game. I never said using the power at all is automatically permanent.

You can't simply go 'I think I'll discorporate permanently to become an immortal and return', that's explicit in the text regarding it.

You don't have to discorporate permanently to become an immortal. If you look at that 9th refinement of the Enlightened Immortals, permanent discorporation is the next stage AFTER that. One which many of them choose not to take.

Based on the description of the discorporation power, you actually don't have to go through the EI process to permanently discorporate, it's something available (and tempting) to anyone using that power. The refinement is a means of experiencing the world better prior to that, and presumably a more efficient means of sticking around and teaching the power to discorporate to others.

You don't seem to understand what permanent means in this case or what an Enlightened Immortal is. When you fail your check or just decide to become an enlightened Immortal that's it you're gone, because it takes centuries to absorb the meaning of the Tao and return as a first stage Enlightened Immortal. That's very clearly laid out in the text.

If it lasts a few hundred years maybe you'll get to play your Immortal character when its finally done achieving first level mastery.

This mostly depends on the time scale of games and how GMs work with characters. The year minimums I think are guidelines (and not really that huge a limit considering the whole minute=week, day = 27 years timescale of the outer astral plane), I think as long as someone has discorporated at least once and has learned every Zenjoriki ability (the latter would take a while) they should be considered a 1st stage refined. People who've simply discorporated are unrefined.

First Enlightened Immortals aren't off on the Astral Plane, they're in some disembodied state in a chi-based realm learning the secrets of the universe and that 'out of the game' part makes it quite clear that the time scale is based on the Earth Plane no matter where the nascent immortal is at learning or how long time seems to pass there. There's a lot more to being an EI than just knowing every Zenjoriki and having discorporated, which is why it says it takes centuries for someone who discorporates to become an EI to absorb enough to return as a 1st stage refined Immortal. There are mysteries involved you simply can't learn without those centuries.

channeling positive chi into the victim will temporarily help, giving you back the ability to heal before your chi drains away again. But it's just a stop-gap measure much like AIDS drugs don't cure the victims it just adds more time to their clock and sometimes it fails.

Yeah, the main problem here is the lack of numbers. We don't really know how it works. Could channelers simply convert neg>positive chi 1:1 as often as they like without cost?

Mention of rare individuals who've held off Dim Mak for decades or centuries would seem to support the idea that at least some people manage (perhaps at the cost of their sanity or morality) to get around the problem of not being able to renew their positive chi to keep alive. If anything it almost implies that being infected with Dim Mak could extend your lifespan due to those techniques to stave it off.

[mastermesh]

in my campaigns the cure is living in the land of Winshiloskira for a year. It's an time displaced island that a bunch of ancient ninja monks and wizards use that is nearly impossible to find since the whole island is sort of in a dimensional bubble bouncing through time and space... sort of like Dr. Who mixed with Shangra La.

The chi heals here because of the thick forest, waterfalls and streams, etc. The entire island is essentially a chi magnet/ley line with a forest of millienion trees. Only a few of the elder monks and wizard circle of elders venture out in to the outside world. Since the place is a place of harmony and peace, it's sort of like a religious cult that shows up from time to time somewhat like Psyscape...

One of the main npcs that I used from this place was named Wifinil. He was a superhero teleporter. He snapped his finger to activate his power. PCs would meet him when he's 80 or so and maybe run in to him later when he's 20 and then 10, etc. because of the time displacement of the island.

[Nightmask]

most likely you couldn't do anything as trying to use the techniques in a body not your own you'd be unable to manipulate the chi properly to do something like discorporate.

Ah, but do you even need Chi to discorporate? There might've been some rule about needing at least 1 point to use Zenjoriki even if they have no cost but I thought you could use Discorporate at 0 chi and it would restore it all.

Plus: if you can't manipulate the chi of someone you possess, does that mean you can't use chi powers at all?

Can't people who possess others use their PPE/ISP/superpowers fine?

Even zero chi isn't really zero chi, something may have what appears to be no chi in it but the rules are clear that there's at least a minute amount of chi to be found in everything. Either way if you're possessing someone else's body, one that you certainly aren't attuned to, how can you cause said body to discorporate when you aren't attuned to it?

You don't seem to understand what permanent means in this case or what an Enlightened Immortal is. When you fail your check or just decide to become an enlightened Immortal that's it you're gone, because it takes centuries to absorb the meaning of the Tao and return as a first stage Enlightened Immortal. That's very clearly laid out in the text.

The amount of time required to become first stage isn't laid out, and I don't recall seeing centuries anywhere. Average age for first stagers is 100-250.

A big hurdle is that you need to know all the Zenjoriki abilities. One way to prevent players from becoming first stage would be to add Zenjoriki powers to the list, like all the optional fanmade ones I've seen on Mantis and Kuseru's sites. The more included under 'all', the more time it would take to learn them.

People could take the approach that you just automatically get them by refining the elixer but that makes it a bit too easy to do.

The only other limitation is refining the elixir of immortality for the first time. That's the thing that would take time. Absorbing the meaning of the Tao appears to be easy and only takes a meaning round, occuring the first time you discorporate. Staying discorporated longer doesn't appear to impart more secrets, it just makes it harder to return to the normal world because it's so blissful.

There average age doesn't state it includes the time spent non-corporeal 'absorbing the meaning of the Tao'. There's certanily nothing easy about absorbing that meaning and it definitely does not take just a round and does not occur when you first discorporate. At best you're told that every time including the first that you discorporate you see the temptation to give up existence permanently to learn the message of the Tao and this tends to scare off the 'evil' alignments after just a few attempts to learn it. It's said in very bold text that when a character discorporates permanently to become an enlightened immortal he is permanently out of the game because of time is perceived differently in that state as the absorb those lessons. One definitely isn't picking things up 'in a round' and it's not occurring the first time you discorporate it's taking at least a minimum of decades and longer than the lifespan of the rest of the normal humans in a Ninjas and Superspies campaign.

There's a lot more to being an EI than just knowing every Zenjoriki and having discorporated, which is why it says it takes centuries for someone who discorporates to become an EI to absorb enough to return as a 1st stage refined Immortal. There are mysteries involved you simply can't learn without those centuries.

Where are these other things mentioned? The only thing besides discorporation and Zenjoriki that's mentioned is refining the elixer, and that's done while you're on earth, not while you're discorporated, because it involves internal alchemy.

Internal alchemy doesn't have much to do with enlightenment, because it involves perfecting the physical body, something you abandon when you leave into Nirvana. The entire 9 stages of refining the elixer are more about making yourself stronger in the real world so you can help other people reach enlightenment, or just to have adventures and enjoy life.

Centuries is silly, if you can be a 100year old EI it must take less than a century to go from learning discorporation to learning all the Zenjoriki to refining the elixer. I'm not even sure if it specifies a sequence for these, they sound like things that people could attempt to learn independently of one another. The anti-aging elixer is purely physical, the discorporation and immortal soul are purely spiritual, and zenjoriki involves aspect of both.

That's not what it says about internal alchemy, if anything it's the opposite. The point of internal alchemy is to have not just an immortal spirit but an immortal body as well hence they work to merge mind, body, and spirit into a perfect union. You really need to reread the entries on enlightened immortals and on discorporate. The elixir is about reaching the first level of enlightened immortality, where the union of mind, spirit, and body allows you to produce the elixir. With discorporate you're bypassing the long process as a mortal of learning how to do this (which you may never do) and simply tossing yourself whole into the Tao, giving up physical reality for the sure thing as the Tao itself feeds these lessons into you. When you've finished absorbing all this information you return many decades later in your now ageless body and a spirit that will see to it you're always reborn no matter how often you die.

Mention of rare individuals who've held off Dim Mak for decades or centuries would seem to support the idea that at least some people manage (perhaps at the cost of their sanity or morality) to get around the problem of not being able to renew their positive chi to keep alive. If anything it almost implies that being infected with Dim Mak could extend your lifespan due to those techniques to stave it off.

This makes me wonder, does Dim Mak only prevent regeneration of positive chi, or also negative chi? Makes me wonder if people skirt the loss by always remaining negative, could explain how someone cursed with it might turn into one of those Undead immortals.

Dim Mak blocks the regeneration of positive chi and leads to death as your body's positive chi is whittled away until you fill with negative chi (which seems to imply negative chi/death is the natural state of humans if it's a given that they'll fill with negative chi when they lose the ability to produce more positive chi). But there are ways of artificially restoring the positive chi that we're given no reason to believe that they're blocked and spells to let you heal while at negative chi, and probably a few did end up dying and reviving as undead immortals.

[Colt47]

Couldn't someone cure themselves of Dim Mak by just killing themselves and getting revived via CPR? Technically speaking, dim mak is supposed to work by causing a malfunction of some sort that slowly kills the individual, so if someone were to have all of his vital functions stop and start up again, he probably wouldn't be afflicted anymore.

I mean this isn't exactly easy as you'd basically have to kill your buddy or yourself (whoever is afflicted) in some way that allows for resuscitation and then succeed at reviving him or being revived yourself. However, given that the individual is doomed to die a wasting death, might as well jump the shark and see if it works.

Combating the ancient chinese killing arts with an electrical defibrillator... and SCIENCE!

[Nightmask]

Couldn't someone cure themselves of Dim Mak by just killing themselves and getting revived via CPR? Technically speaking, dim mak is supposed to work by causing a malfunction of some sort that slowly kills the individual, so if someone were to have all of his vital functions stop and start up again, he probably wouldn't be afflicted anymore.

I mean this isn't exactly easy as you'd basically have to kill your buddy or yourself (whoever is afflicted) in some way that allows for resuscitation and then succeed at reviving him or being revived yourself. However, given that the individual is doomed to die a wasting death, might as well jump the shark and see if it works.

Combating the ancient chinese killing arts with an electrical defibrillator... and SCIENCE!

No, because the cells have been prevented from receiving the positive chi that they need to heal and survive and filled with negative chi instead. You can't revive them because their cells are incapable of restarting.

[Nightmask]

if you're possessing someone else's body, one that you certainly aren't attuned to, how can you cause said body to discorporate when you aren't attuned to it?

You can use your martial arts skills in other people's bodies even though you didn't learn those moves in their body. If one takes the approach of martial arts skills (even zenjoriki) being skills, I don't see the problem. Would I be unable to use Karumi-Jutsu to reduce another person's body's weight if I was possessing them?

You can't take that approach though, when we look at how Chi and the mystic martial arts are treated they depend upon a balance between mind and body and as it's not your body you aren't in balance with it.

There average age doesn't state it includes the time spent non-corporeal 'absorbing the meaning of the Tao'.

I don't see why a disclaimer is warranted. Discorporate doesn't mention anything about someone's aging process being halted while discorporated, after all. The whole "becomes one of the Immortals, ascends to another aspect of existence, time operates differently as they absorb secrets, permanently out of game" stuff does not apply here.

That is a different kind of immortality than doing the refinement of the Elixer that the EIs do. Refining the elixer is not necessary. It's something people do because they don't want to ascend yet, because they want to enjoy THIS aspect of existence. This is clear when you read the 9th refinement. "ready to permanently discorporate".

When you do it permanently, you don't come back. It's the "10th refinement" so to speak, and anybody with Zenjoriki can do it, and skip the first 9 steps if they want to.

Since the disclaimer about being out of the game and out of sync with time is in reference to permanent discorporation, it is not something that applies to people casually using the power (or for the first time) or to Enlightened Immortals.

No, that's not a different kind of immortality. There's only the Enlightened Immortal and the false paths to Immortality. You're also reading that text and deriving a completely illogical and contrary conclusion from it. That text under the Enlightened Immortal has absolutely nothing to do with the text on the Discorporate power. That power clearly states that 'as you absorb the mysteries of the Tao' for being why you won't be back during the period of the game, it's obvious that the character after finishing up those mysteries returns as a 1st stage Enlightened Immortal. It very obviously does not mean you skip right to 10 stage Enlightenment.

There's certanily nothing easy about absorbing that meaning

Why not? The description makes it sound incredibly easy, once you learn how to do it. "The problem is not the ability, but more a matter of the temptation".

Absorbing the secrets of the Tao isn't what makes Enlightened Immortals, it's basic discorporation that makes the soul immortal, and refinement of the elixer in the body that makes the body immune to death from old age.

Someone who uses the Zenjoriki becomes a "stage 0" so to speak. They only become stage 1 by learning all the zenjoriki and whatever else it takes to form the elixer (that part's never specified, so I guess up to GM).

That is just so wrong on so many levels. You've such a house ruled and contrary to the book spin on things I don't think we can continue having a valid discussion as you're simply operating under your own special rules and as such can be no meeting of the minds.

and it definitely does not take just a round and does not occur when you first discorporate.

I agree: it only takes 3 seconds (a melee action). This is the only amount of time stated for the power, never longer. The only longer period is permanent discorporation, which happens if you choose to stay, or if you succumb to the 40% temptation.

You really need to separate your house spin on things from what the books say, and what is meant by permanent discorporation.

At best you're told that every time including the first that you discorporate you see the temptation to give up existence permanently to learn the message of the Tao and this tends to scare off the 'evil' alignments after just a few attempts to learn it.

The evil aren't scared of learning it, rather they become scared of it once they learn it and use it. They turn away from it after the use.

Evil characters might still use it in some cases (like to save their life) but obviously wouldn't want to become reliant on it, because if you use it too casually, you might overuse it. They don't know the 40% per day applies, and that's really more of a generalization.

Example: If I used up 10 chi, I could meditate a couple hours to get it back, or save time using Zenjoriki to get it back instantly. But then: what if I got in a battle later and used up ALL my chi and REALLY need that Zenjoriki? Since I'd used it earlier, that consecutive use would put me at risk of being unable to come back. That is one reason everyone would be wary of it, I think, but especially selfish/evil who value their existence and individuality highly.

Yes the evil are scared of learning it, it makes it quite clear that they won't continue the studies required to put the skill down as one that they've learned because they see it as a dangerous trap that will destroy them as who they are. You won't find an evil character that knows Discorporate, if one did it would be someone who started good and turned evil and he'll never use it because the fear of giving in to temptation is too great.

It's said in very bold text that when a character discorporates permanently to become an enlightened immortal he is permanently out of the game because of time is perceived differently in that state as the absorb those lessons. One definitely isn't picking things up 'in a round' and it's not occurring the first time you discorporate it's taking at least a minimum of decades and longer than the lifespan of the rest of the normal humans in a Ninjas and Superspies campaign.

That has nothing to do with the Enlightened Immortals and their elixers. The EIs walk on the earth. Permanent discorporators do not. They're part of the chi. They are above even gods and yama kings and "mere" EIs refining a useless elixer to perfect their bodies (you don't even need a body when discorporated, the elixer and dragon pearls and all that are pointless).

I read permanent as permanent, meaning you don't come back from it. So it doesn't apply.

Meaning you aren't reading the entire body of text and are imposing your house rule on it contrary to what the book states. Again gaining Enlightenment makes you into an Enlightened Immortal, 1st stage. Discorporation if you give in to temptation and give up on your body to learn the mysteries will result in you becoming a 1st stage enlightened immortal when you've finished absorbing the mysteries of the Tao then begin the process of living as one when finished. There would be no mention of the difference in time while permanently discorporated if you didn't come back eventually as an Enlightened Immortal because if you never came back it wouldn't matter.

That's not what it says about internal alchemy, if anything it's the opposite. The point of internal alchemy is to have not just an immortal spirit but an immortal body as well hence they work to merge mind, body, and spirit into a perfect union.

The immortal mind/spirit exists from using Zenjoriki to see the true state of this universe. This makes the internal alchemy about making the body immortal. That's about it.

"the organs of the body are controlled by the mind" + "breathing, digestion, and the purification of the blood all become different "reactors" used to refine the chemical elements of the body.

IE it's a physical process. "the elixir assures the EI of eternal life and prevents the body from weakening or aging"

This isn't about spiritual ascension at all. That's the final goal, yes, unification of phys/ment/spirit for the Jade Emperor's Heaven, but that's when they permanently discorporate. Something many take vows not to do. The EIs, even up to the 9th refined, are not ascended, and not permanently out of the game.

Yes you definitely have a house rule that's so contrary to the books we can't continue discussing things. Even as the book states that spiritual immortality is only the first step and an immortal body to go along with it is the goal of the Enlightenment you dismiss the spiritual aspect entirely. The material under Enlightened Immortals regarding 10 stage refinement is completely unrelated to what's meant under the Discorporate power, you're taking a rock and trying to equate it to pudding.

You really need to reread the entries on enlightened immortals and on discorporate. The elixir is about reaching the first level of enlightened immortality, where the union of mind, spirit, and body allows you to produce the elixir.

The union is the goal, unifying them isn't stated as a requirement to create the elixer. The way the elixer is made is described, and it is through mental control of internal bodily processes. No spirit needed.

One should in theory even be able to do it without having discorporated. The only problem there is if you die, your spirit doesn't reincarnate regardless of how ageless your body might've been. Assuming that making the elixir is hard (it seems hard), prioritizing getting an immortal soul first is more important. That way, if you die, you can always learn to make the elixir in a later lifetime. But if you learn the elixir first, you can still get killed prior to learning to discorporate and getting the immortal spirit.

The elixir isn't even really that necessary because if the goal of EIs is to help people (ie teach them to discorporate too) you don't need an immortal body to do it. It's just very convenient because more people may want to learn from you if you're immortal, and you can teach continuously without having to die and get reborn as a baby and all that each time. Every time you do that, you lose ~20 years of possibly being able to teach new students. That's like a whole generation of people who can't be enlightened because your dumb body got old and you had to get reborn in a new one.

Like I've already noted, you're tossing out material cut from whole cloth completely from yourself rather than in the book. It's explicit in the book that the elixir is the essential stage for one seeking full enlightenment so that along with an immortal spirit they have an immortal body as well. If Enlightenment were that easy you'd have people being taught all over the place but don't because it's not because it's a two-step process starting with immortal spirit then immortal body. You start with the spirit because without that first you can't enjoy rebirth.

With discorporate you're bypassing the long process as a mortal of learning how to do this (which you may never do) and simply tossing yourself whole into the Tao, giving up physical reality for the sure thing as the Tao itself feeds these lessons into you. When you've finished absorbing all this information you return many decades later in your now ageless body and a spirit that will see to it you're always reborn no matter how often you die.

This is pure conjecture on your part, the book doesn't say anything about this. Discorporate either lasts 3 seconds (melee action) or forever/permanently. Those are the only 2 durations listed.

Giving up physical reality for the Tao doesn't teach you how to make the elixir, because it's a physical process of internal alchemy. It only makes your soul able to reincarnate, and even then, only if you return from discorporation (you don't reincarnate at all if you permanently discorporate).

To reiterate: the first discorporation (when you learn the ability) takes 3 seconds, and then your soul is immortal and will reincarnate from then on. But it doesn't teach you to make the elixir, so people living those lifetimes would still age and suffer from infirmity. Furthermore, there may not be any guarantees about recovering memories from past lifetimes. The reason being:

"elder Immortals will arrange for the child to expereince bits and pieces of the character's memories from the previous life".

We don't know if they would arrange for this for casual Zenjoriki reincarnators. It may be a service they only choose to extend to those elixir-forming bros.

Totally wrong. Nothing in the book supports your contention that a single discorporation even remotely makes you into an immortal and free to reincarnate endlessly. That's completely your unique take on it.

Dim Mak blocks the regeneration of positive chi and leads to death as your body's positive chi is whittled away until you fill with negative chi (which seems to imply negative chi/death is the natural state of humans if it's a given that they'll fill with negative chi when they lose the ability to produce more positive chi).

Where is it mentioned that Dim Mak ends up with people being in negative chi? The description in N&SS only talks about it whittling away to 0, and you can't heal at 0 chi.

The only way I could see this occuring is via a negative chi attack, because even in areas filled with negative chi, there doesn't appear to be any stats regarding humans being filled with it. Entities that suffer in this way only seem to be those composed of pure chi. Physical bodies appear to interfere with being infected by environmental chi, whereas attacks are more invasive.

Hmmm, I remember seeing the statement of someone filling with negative chi but Dim Mak doesn't say that under it's entry. I must be remembering another damaging attack that causes someone to fill with negative chi until they've gone from their normal positive to replacing it with negative chi.

In any case you've a house ruled spin on things so unrelated to the books and what Enlightenment entails there's no point attempting to continue any discussion in that regard because you're off way off in your own way of thinking. Which while you're free to do for your game in discussing what's covered in the books you simply aren't and with you holding views contrary to every line of text in the book it's simply impossible to continue trying to discuss what's actually written in the books.

[Colt47]

Couldn't someone cure themselves of Dim Mak by just killing themselves and getting revived via CPR? Technically speaking, dim mak is supposed to work by causing a malfunction of some sort that slowly kills the individual, so if someone were to have all of his vital functions stop and start up again, he probably wouldn't be afflicted anymore.

I mean this isn't exactly easy as you'd basically have to kill your buddy or yourself (whoever is afflicted) in some way that allows for resuscitation and then succeed at reviving him or being revived yourself. However, given that the individual is doomed to die a wasting death, might as well jump the shark and see if it works.

Combating the ancient chinese killing arts with an electrical defibrillator... and SCIENCE!

No, because the cells have been prevented from receiving the positive chi that they need to heal and survive and filled with negative chi instead. You can't revive them because their cells are incapable of restarting.

It doesn't effect the body on a cellular level, it effects the body on a mass functioning level. In fact, it even states this implicitly in the description for Dim Mak. Specifically, this particular atemi causes a major malfunction with the extraordinary meridians, which act as the qi storage in the body. This specific meridian is linked to the circulatory system of the body (if anyone wants to double check this please do), which is exactly what gets shut down during the first five minutes of being dead. So basically, yes, killing the person temporarily and reviving him after being dead for at least one minute is a plausible cure for Dim Mak.

Here is a good chart for the primary meridians:
http://www.acos.org/articles/acupuncture-chart-main-meridians/

For the extraordinary meridians, this is the key chart (also note on the art next to Tien Hsueh Touch mastery where the woman is pressing with her finger. It's the inner right side of the chest next to the pectoral, which presses on the extraordinary meridian called the Yin Heel Vessel located near the heart. )

http://ymaa.com/articles/the-eight-extraordinary-qi-vessels-part-1

By the way, acupuncture is kind of neat.

[Nightmask]

Couldn't someone cure themselves of Dim Mak by just killing themselves and getting revived via CPR? Technically speaking, dim mak is supposed to work by causing a malfunction of some sort that slowly kills the individual, so if someone were to have all of his vital functions stop and start up again, he probably wouldn't be afflicted anymore.

I mean this isn't exactly easy as you'd basically have to kill your buddy or yourself (whoever is afflicted) in some way that allows for resuscitation and then succeed at reviving him or being revived yourself. However, given that the individual is doomed to die a wasting death, might as well jump the shark and see if it works.

Combating the ancient chinese killing arts with an electrical defibrillator... and SCIENCE!

No, because the cells have been prevented from receiving the positive chi that they need to heal and survive and filled with negative chi instead. You can't revive them because their cells are incapable of restarting.

It doesn't effect the body on a cellular level, it effects the body on a mass functioning level. In fact, it even states this implicitly in the description for Dim Mak. Specifically, this particular atemi causes a major malfunction with the extraordinary meridians, which act as the qi storage in the body. This specific meridian is linked to the circulatory system of the body (if anyone wants to double check this please do), which is exactly what gets shut down during the first five minutes of being dead. So basically, yes, killing the person temporarily and reviving him after being dead for at least one minute is a plausible cure for Dim Mak.

Here is a good chart for the primary meridians:
http://www.acos.org/articles/acupuncture-chart-main-meridians/

For the extraordinary meridians, this is the key chart (also note on the art next to Tien Hsueh Touch mastery where the woman is pressing with her finger. It's the inner right side of the chest next to the pectoral, which presses on the extraordinary meridian called the Yin Heel Vessel located near the heart. )

http://ymaa.com/articles/the-eight-extraordinary-qi-vessels-part-1

By the way, acupuncture is kind of neat.

All the Atemi states is that it disrupts the body's ability to replenish its positive chi so that as it wears away you eventually reach zero chi and the body's systems begin to fail. It's affecting the body at a cellular level since you can't separate the individual cells from the whole, they each require that bit of positive chi to function and do all the things cells do to survive without it cumulative damage eventually kills you. Killing someone and trying to revive them isn't going to turn back on those systems shut down by the Dim Mak, the body was damaged at its most fundamental level so until you fix that you're screwed.

[Colt47]

Couldn't someone cure themselves of Dim Mak by just killing themselves and getting revived via CPR? Technically speaking, dim mak is supposed to work by causing a malfunction of some sort that slowly kills the individual, so if someone were to have all of his vital functions stop and start up again, he probably wouldn't be afflicted anymore.

I mean this isn't exactly easy as you'd basically have to kill your buddy or yourself (whoever is afflicted) in some way that allows for resuscitation and then succeed at reviving him or being revived yourself. However, given that the individual is doomed to die a wasting death, might as well jump the shark and see if it works.

Combating the ancient chinese killing arts with an electrical defibrillator... and SCIENCE!

No, because the cells have been prevented from receiving the positive chi that they need to heal and survive and filled with negative chi instead. You can't revive them because their cells are incapable of restarting.

It doesn't effect the body on a cellular level, it effects the body on a mass functioning level. In fact, it even states this implicitly in the description for Dim Mak. Specifically, this particular atemi causes a major malfunction with the extraordinary meridians, which act as the qi storage in the body. This specific meridian is linked to the circulatory system of the body (if anyone wants to double check this please do), which is exactly what gets shut down during the first five minutes of being dead. So basically, yes, killing the person temporarily and reviving him after being dead for at least one minute is a plausible cure for Dim Mak.

Here is a good chart for the primary meridians:
http://www.acos.org/articles/acupuncture-chart-main-meridians/

For the extraordinary meridians, this is the key chart (also note on the art next to Tien Hsueh Touch mastery where the woman is pressing with her finger. It's the inner right side of the chest next to the pectoral, which presses on the extraordinary meridian called the Yin Heel Vessel located near the heart. )

http://ymaa.com/articles/the-eight-extraordinary-qi-vessels-part-1

By the way, acupuncture is kind of neat.

All the Atemi states is that it disrupts the body's ability to replenish its positive chi so that as it wears away you eventually reach zero chi and the body's systems begin to fail. It's affecting the body at a cellular level since you can't separate the individual cells from the whole, they each require that bit of positive chi to function and do all the things cells do to survive without it cumulative damage eventually kills you. Killing someone and trying to revive them isn't going to turn back on those systems shut down by the Dim Mak, the body was damaged at its most fundamental level so until you fix that you're screwed.

Where do you keep getting the cellular level deal from? Cells in our body don't individually gather chi: the body as a whole gathers and stores chi through the various meridians.

You can have dim mak work however you want in your game, but from what I've read in the game book and researched online, the idea of killing and reviving someone to cure them of dim mak can work.

[Nightmask]

All the Atemi states is that it disrupts the body's ability to replenish its positive chi so that as it wears away you eventually reach zero chi and the body's systems begin to fail. It's affecting the body at a cellular level since you can't separate the individual cells from the whole, they each require that bit of positive chi to function and do all the things cells do to survive without it cumulative damage eventually kills you. Killing someone and trying to revive them isn't going to turn back on those systems shut down by the Dim Mak, the body was damaged at its most fundamental level so until you fix that you're screwed.

Where do you keep getting the cellular level deal from? Cells in our body don't individually gather chi: the body as a whole gathers and stores chi through the various meridians.

You can have dim mak work however you want in your game, but from what I've read in the game book and researched online, the idea of killing and reviving someone to cure them of dim mak can work.

Given chi exists in all matter and each individual cell is alive you really can't make such an argument that individual cells don't gather chi. They may work as a unified whole contributing their meager stores together until it reaches a level that's measurable by those who can sense chi but each cell most definitely is involved in producing chi. So I can't imagine where you get the notion you could cheat Dim Mak by playing dead for a few minutes when it prevented the body from gathering chi to heal and if you can't heal once you stop things you can't restart them as that constitutes healing.

[Colt47]

All the Atemi states is that it disrupts the body's ability to replenish its positive chi so that as it wears away you eventually reach zero chi and the body's systems begin to fail. It's affecting the body at a cellular level since you can't separate the individual cells from the whole, they each require that bit of positive chi to function and do all the things cells do to survive without it cumulative damage eventually kills you. Killing someone and trying to revive them isn't going to turn back on those systems shut down by the Dim Mak, the body was damaged at its most fundamental level so until you fix that you're screwed.

Where do you keep getting the cellular level deal from? Cells in our body don't individually gather chi: the body as a whole gathers and stores chi through the various meridians.

You can have dim mak work however you want in your game, but from what I've read in the game book and researched online, the idea of killing and reviving someone to cure them of dim mak can work.

Given chi exists in all matter and each individual cell is alive you really can't make such an argument that individual cells don't gather chi. They may work as a unified whole contributing their meager stores together until it reaches a level that's measurable by those who can sense chi but each cell most definitely is involved in producing chi. So I can't imagine where you get the notion you could cheat Dim Mak by playing dead for a few minutes when it prevented the body from gathering chi to heal and if you can't heal once you stop things you can't restart them as that constitutes healing.

Dim Mak doesn't physically break anything like other Atemi that attack the more defined physical locations. What it does attack is the flow of Qi in the extraordinary meridian that allows the storage of chi in the body, and the ONLY way that can work is by disrupting it, because it is not a physically defined path in the body in the same sense as blood vessels or arteries. The fact that the person only takes physical damage if he succeeds at rolling with it illustrates this fact as well as documentation on the meridian. However, I'm giving a possible solution for Dim Mak, not an absolute. Very little is understood about how the extraordinary meridian works or is linked to the other meridians in the body. I'm making the assumption that if the problem is caused by a disruption to the flow of chi through the storage meridian, shutting it off could potentially relieve the point of self inflicted pressure caused by the Dim Mak, and therefore allow the flow of chi in the storage Meridian to continue functioning as normal.

[The Beast]

I'm kinda surprised this thread is still around...

Given chi exists in all matter and each individual cell is alive you really can't make such an argument that individual cells don't gather chi. They may work as a unified whole contributing their meager stores together until it reaches a level that's measurable by those who can sense chi but each cell most definitely is involved in producing chi. So I can't imagine where you get the notion you could cheat Dim Mak by playing dead for a few minutes when it prevented the body from gathering chi to heal and if you can't heal once you stop things you can't restart them as that constitutes healing.

I'd just like to point out that someone here showed that the current rules for Save vs Death are only helpful if your save bonus was over a certain percent. Once you're below that number, you actually have less of a chance to make a successful save. So technically this method would be a high-risk way to cure oneself if the GM allowed for it.

Then you have to take into consideration how many players would even think that in the first place.

"I have to kill myself so I won't die."

It took seven years for someone to come up with that. Usually PC death is something that everyone avoids.

Next you'd have to find a doctor and convince him that letting you die and stay dead for a few minutes is the best course of action for what ails you. So unless you lived near Dr House that itself could take awhile. What's the next choice? Have the other PCs bring you back? How many groups run around with someone who has more than just First Aid? (I'm speaking from a pure N&S game. If you've combined it with another game, you'd probably would have cast Remove Curse by now.) I know from experience that it does happen, but it's normally when you have your larger groups and everyone's trying to get unique roles in that group.

And then you have to figure out exactly how long should you wait to revive the PC once he's dead. Personally if I were the GM and a group tried this method I wouldn't tell them how long to wait (keep suspence up). I'm fairly sure that as time went on, just about every GM would start applying penalties to the Save vs Death rolls, and I doubt any GM that allowed this method would say the Dim Mak was cured the second the PC died.

[Nightmask]

:shock: I'm kinda surprised this thread is still around...

Given chi exists in all matter and each individual cell is alive you really can't make such an argument that individual cells don't gather chi. They may work as a unified whole contributing their meager stores together until it reaches a level that's measurable by those who can sense chi but each cell most definitely is involved in producing chi. So I can't imagine where you get the notion you could cheat Dim Mak by playing dead for a few minutes when it prevented the body from gathering chi to heal and if you can't heal once you stop things you can't restart them as that constitutes healing.

I'd just like to point out that someone here showed that the current rules for Save vs Death are only helpful if your save bonus was over a certain percent. Once you're below that number, you actually have less of a chance to make a successful save. So technically this method would be a high-risk way to cure oneself if the GM allowed for it.

Then you have to take into consideration how many players would even think that in the first place.

"I have to kill myself so I won't die."

It took seven years for someone to come up with that. Usually PC death is something that everyone avoids.

Next you'd have to find a doctor and convince him that letting you die and stay dead for a few minutes is the best course of action for what ails you. So unless you lived near Dr House that itself could take awhile. What's the next choice? Have the other PCs bring you back? How many groups run around with someone who has more than just First Aid? (I'm speaking from a pure N&S game. If you've combined it with another game, you'd probably would have cast Remove Curse by now.) I know from experience that it does happen, but it's normally when you have your larger groups and everyone's trying to get unique roles in that group.

And then you have to figure out exactly how long should you wait to revive the PC once he's dead. Personally if I were the GM and a group tried this method I wouldn't tell them how long to wait (keep suspence up). I'm fairly sure that as time went on, just about every GM would start applying penalties to the Save vs Death rolls, and I doubt any GM that allowed this method would say the Dim Mak was cured the second the PC died.

Well if combined with other games (and remove curse isn't a given, it's only suggested in Rifts likely due to everything being so super-charged there) a quick kill and use a Resurrection-style spell to bring them back would be more the route to go. One would have to think since the spell fixes everything as long as the body is relatively intact and restarts things that it fixes damage to the body's natural chi like Dim Mak causes.

[Colt47]

:shock: I'm kinda surprised this thread is still around...

Given chi exists in all matter and each individual cell is alive you really can't make such an argument that individual cells don't gather chi. They may work as a unified whole contributing their meager stores together until it reaches a level that's measurable by those who can sense chi but each cell most definitely is involved in producing chi. So I can't imagine where you get the notion you could cheat Dim Mak by playing dead for a few minutes when it prevented the body from gathering chi to heal and if you can't heal once you stop things you can't restart them as that constitutes healing.

I'd just like to point out that someone here showed that the current rules for Save vs Death are only helpful if your save bonus was over a certain percent. Once you're below that number, you actually have less of a chance to make a successful save. So technically this method would be a high-risk way to cure oneself if the GM allowed for it.

Then you have to take into consideration how many players would even think that in the first place.

"I have to kill myself so I won't die."

It took seven years for someone to come up with that. Usually PC death is something that everyone avoids.

Next you'd have to find a doctor and convince him that letting you die and stay dead for a few minutes is the best course of action for what ails you. So unless you lived near Dr House that itself could take awhile. What's the next choice? Have the other PCs bring you back? How many groups run around with someone who has more than just First Aid? (I'm speaking from a pure N&S game. If you've combined it with another game, you'd probably would have cast Remove Curse by now.) I know from experience that it does happen, but it's normally when you have your larger groups and everyone's trying to get unique roles in that group.

And then you have to figure out exactly how long should you wait to revive the PC once he's dead. Personally if I were the GM and a group tried this method I wouldn't tell them how long to wait (keep suspence up). I'm fairly sure that as time went on, just about every GM would start applying penalties to the Save vs Death rolls, and I doubt any GM that allowed this method would say the Dim Mak was cured the second the PC died.

Got a bit of a Shadow Hearts 2 inspiration for the cure with this one given how it is a somewhat similar situation to what the protagonist in that game had to deal with.

[Hotrod]

Here are some possible 'cures' that are canon. Note that my interpretation of what constitutes a cure is the survival of the personality and memories in some way, shape, or form.

If the victim is psionic and has the appropriate power, he/she could transfer their consciousness into another person's body.

If the victim isn't psionic, the victim could get exposed to the experimental rift in Atlantis, acquire the necessary psionic power, and then transfer their consciousness into another person's body.

The victim is converted into a vampire or other undead.

The victim acquires the minor power: healing factor, which grants immunity to Dim Mak.

The victim acquires the major power: Invulnerability, so he can't take damage, even if he can't heal.

The victim could sleep in a magic pyramid every night in perpetuity. That's supposed to prolong your life by a day every time you do it. Basically, that would be a GM call.

The victim alters their physical structure into something that doesn't need to heal.

The victim acquires the rune sword Mindprancer, from Palladium Fantasy's Adventures in the Northern Wilderness. His body may rot away, but he won't die. He'll probably want to, though.

The victim's soul could be used to create a Rune Weapon.

[Mercdog]

Slightly off topic, but still Dim Mak related,

According to the Dim Mak listing, the Chi of the victim slowly erodes away, but at what rate? 1 per day? 1 per week? I would assume that it's not 'at the rate it's used up', since then the effectiveness of Dim Mak would be limited to those individuals with abilities that require a Chi cost.

I've been looking through the books, but the answer seems to be eluding me. Can one of you fine folks point me in the right direction?

[Nightmask]

Slightly off topic, but still Dim Mak related,

According to the Dim Mak listing, the Chi of the victim slowly erodes away, but at what rate? 1 per day? 1 per week? I would assume that it's not 'at the rate it's used up', since then the effectiveness of Dim Mak would be limited to those individuals with abilities that require a Chi cost.

I've been looking through the books, but the answer seems to be eluding me. Can one of you fine folks point me in the right direction?

I've never found any reference to how fast Chi erodes without the ability to naturally regenerate it, if it exists it's either in some odd location or in a FAQ/Errata sheet somewhere.

[Mercdog]

It's listed under the chi disease spell description.

And where is that please?