Confused about Attacks/melee

[gdub411]

Sorry for such a daft question, but I am new to the game and am trying to figure out why I keep getting discrepancies between my perception on how many attacks a PC gets compared to some sample characters I have uploaded.

I'm looking at a 4th level Knight with ordinary stats. All his skills are given and Boxing isn't one of them. It says he has 5 Attacks/melee, but I would have thought he had 3 from HTH Expert. What am I missing??

[Tinker Dragoon]

The book doesn't exactly make this clear (and actually contradicts it in some places), but 2nd edition characters are supposed to have a base of two attacks in addition to those provided by their hand to hand combat skill. This is the so-called "two attacks for living" rule that has inspired so many arguments over the years. So the character in question has a base of two attacks, plus two for HtH Expert at level 1, plus one more at level 4, for a grand total of five attacks per melee.

[gdub411]

Thanks much

[gdub411]

Okay. That was helpful, but looking at another PC and I see another discrepancy. ( I'm looking at the GM Kit PDF download BTW. I figured for 5 dollars, why not, if anything for a very nice colored map of the world)

A Wizard of 4th level with Basic H2H has only 3 physical attacks as opposed to the 5 I thought it would have under the above posters theory.

[gdub411]

Also I found a 3rd level Gladiator with only 3 attacks as well as a 3rd level Assassin with 3. Oh my goodness. I'm hopelessly lost. I would just make a houserule of sorts, but I'm afraid that might result in balance issues.

[gdub411]

Okay. That was helpful, but looking at another PC and I see another discrepancy. ( I'm looking at the GM Kit PDF download BTW. I figured for 5 dollars, why not, if anything for a very nice colored map of the world)

A Wizard of 4th level with Basic H2H has only 3 physical attacks as opposed to the 5 I thought it would have under the above posters theory.

If I may. . . .

Just think of it this way--

If the character is a "player character," then they get the +2 attacks to start.
But if they are a Non-player character (NPC),or played by the GM they dont get the extra two attacks.

So Non-player characters get what is written, player characters get an addtional two attacks-(becuase thier the hero's)

I know its not logical-but thats the way it is-
\



Hope this helps

That helps for sure. Thank You. Often times the sample PCs worked just how you said. I realize the rules were meant to be a bit free and loose so I will have to make a decision on how I want to tackle this.

[The Dark Elf]

I believe all characters start with two attacks if they have a hand to hand, one if they do not (+1 if you've selected boxing).

PFRPG does not have any mention of attacks for living so the NPC's are the incorrect write-ups. The above responses make it sound like the extra attacks are supposed to be but for PFRPG they arent.

[Grug]

Hello all, If you have any Hand to Hand you start with four attacks per melee (two from hand to hand, two from living.(yes I know, if you have hand to hand assassin you only start with three). It's actually under errata on the cutting room floor.

7. Do all PC really start with 2 actions per melee round plus any gained from Hand to Hand and O.C.C. bonuses? Also does this apply to just a few of Palladium games or all of them?

Answer: Yes, the 2 actions per melee round applies to all PC and its for all the games. This rule has not always been applied to NPC.

That's taken right from the page, hope this helps!

[Grug]

Also here are some npc/pc if you want, all of their info is correct. Also their all level four.

Kobold scholar.
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-wLkEs4gtL6SUF6d2R0MXdiQm8
Wolfen Earth Warlock
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-wLkEs4gtL6d09TWDJlZ25qYk0
Coyle Pirate
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-wLkEs4gtL6cWFiME5VMlpyeHM
Human Priestess
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-wLkEs4gtL6UlFMWjByZmo0LUU
Orc Mercenary
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-wLkEs4gtL6T0pkS2JucjNPMVE
Human Paladin
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-wLkEs4gtL6M3gxTDRTQ201N2s

[gdub411]

Also here are some npc/pc if you want, all of their info is correct. Also their all level four.

Kobold scholar.
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-wLkEs4gtL6SUF6d2R0MXdiQm8
Wolfen Earth Warlock
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-wLkEs4gtL6d09TWDJlZ25qYk0
Coyle Pirate
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-wLkEs4gtL6cWFiME5VMlpyeHM
Human Priestess
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-wLkEs4gtL6UlFMWjByZmo0LUU
Orc Mercenary
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-wLkEs4gtL6T0pkS2JucjNPMVE
Human Paladin
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-wLkEs4gtL6M3gxTDRTQ201N2s

Hey, I like the set up for those character sheets. The ones I found don't look so good. Where do I look for these at?

[Grug]

Their mine lol, I post them for the MAs to use for demos.

[The Dark Elf]

Hello all, If you have any Hand to Hand you start with four attacks per melee. It's actually under errata on the cutting room floor.

Would you link the errata for me pls. Ty

[Grug]

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php/resources/the-cutting-room-floor/215-combat-rules-questions
It's number seven.

I know it's not under the PFRPG Errata, but it is pretty definitive.

[Tyberius]

Why is it intended then for starting characters to have 4 melee actions? Doesn't that seem a little high? Then, once you get to lvl 4, you have 5, or say you're lvl 4 with boxing, you have 6. That's an awful lot, no? I'm no expert, but why so many so soon?

[The Dark Elf]

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php/resources/the-cutting-room-floor/215-combat-rules-questions
It's number seven.

I know it's not under the PFRPG Errata, but it is pretty definitive.

I agree.

[JuliusCreed]

Why is it intended then for starting characters to have 4 melee actions? Doesn't that seem a little high? Then, once you get to lvl 4, you have 5, or say you're lvl 4 with boxing, you have 6. That's an awful lot, no? I'm no expert, but why so many so soon?

Mainly because the characters are defined as 'larger than life heroes'... they have abilities above and beyond what most normal folk have, including combat. The four and five attacks per melee may seem a bit high, but considering the APM of many of the foes you could face, it really balances out pretty well. For example, most dragons start out with 7 or more at the adult phase... hatchlings starting with a minimum of 4, mostly dependent on species of dragon (the Hydra, for example, starts with 9 as a hatchling) Other critters you could happen across generally tend to run about with 4, 5, even 6 attacks at a time. Suddenly the 4 or 5 you're starting with are a welcome addition. Compared to the average villager with no combat skill whatsoever, an adventurer/hero is going to be like Sugar Ray Leonard when it comes to the number of attacks per melee, but that's because they're supposed to be. Otherwise, you're just another peon waiting to die in a brawl.

[gdub411]

I apologize for starting such a controversial subject. I hadn't realized this was a hotly debated issue

[Tyberius]

i think it's good to know. And it seems the Errata is clear. i just don't get the "2 attacks per melee for living" rule, even still. I mean the PF 2nd ed book clearly states on page 46, "Characters with no combat training get only one attack per melee at levels one, sex and 12." And there is no way it's meaning is only NPC's, its talking about combat as it relates to player characters. And the HtH skill clearly state, "Starts with two attacks per melee...", not add 2 attacks per melee over and above the 2 you get for living. It's just odd that there is some rule out there about 2 melee attacks for living, but it's not stated in the book.

But hey, I'm new. I'm here to learn. I guess 2 base attacks it is, before the HtH, boxing and lvl ups. Just still dont get it. Why not just state it in the book. Oh well. If it balances that way, then it does.

[Lando The Archmagi]

But hey, I'm new. I'm here to learn. I guess 2 base attacks it is, before the HtH, boxing and lvl ups. Just still dont get it. Why not just state it in the book. Oh well. If it balances that way, then it does.

Welcome to Palladium's fun, but often confusing system. That's why they did an errata, since it was in some rulebooks (like original Rifts for example, but buried in the combat section) and not consistent in every core rulebook. Trust me you'll want every attack you can get, because combat can take a bit of time. Very few things are stopped or killed right away (unless you roll a bunch of crits or something exceptional). I've GMed and played most of Palladium's games since even early 1st edition versions and their combat system is one of the better ones, but it still takes awhile considering AR/SDC and such.

[Veknironth]

Well, it's not a big deal. You can go with the 2 attacks for living, or not. Since everyone gets the 2 additional attacks, it doesn't give anyone a benefit. It's like adding the same number to each side of an equation. I, personally, have never thought that PC's should be given 2 extra attacks. Their success should be based on their training, quick thinking, planning, and perhaps luck. They shouldn't just be given such a huge advantage from the start.

Now, what the extra attacks per round will do is make for fewer initiative rolls. That could speed up combat, or it could force someone to be on the defensive for more attacks. Just pick whichever route seems best for you and apply it evenly.

-Vek
"Flame me for wanting the PC's to have to do things the moderately difficult way."

[The Dark Elf]

i think it's good to know. And it seems the Errata is clear. i just don't get the "2 attacks per melee for living" rule, even still. I mean the PF 2nd ed book clearly states on page 46, "Characters with no combat training get only one attack per melee at levels one, sex and 12." And there is no way it's meaning is only NPC's, its talking about combat as it relates to player characters. And the HtH skill clearly state, "Starts with two attacks per melee...", not add 2 attacks per melee over and above the 2 you get for living. It's just odd that there is some rule out there about 2 melee attacks for living, but it's not stated in the book.

But hey, I'm new. I'm here to learn. I guess 2 base attacks it is, before the HtH, boxing and lvl ups. Just still dont get it. Why not just state it in the book. Oh well. If it balances that way, then it does.

Well as you can tell from my posts. Up until yesterday I didnt know about it being for all games in the errata. I did know in HU & Rifts & NB.

But I can tell you that not having 2 for living doesnt impact on the balance of PFRPG. NPC's are normally two or more as per their hand to hand and I give men at arms NPCs another for "boxing".

Animals who appear to have more attacks than the players use their attacks up dodging (cant parry with paws) so it brings it back to an even battle (or in favour of the players).

So I'd suggest trying with and without and seeing what you prefer.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Sorry for such a daft question, but I am new to the game and am trying to figure out why I keep getting discrepancies between my perception on how many attacks a PC gets compared to some sample characters I have uploaded.

I'm looking at a 4th level Knight with ordinary stats. All his skills are given and Boxing isn't one of them. It says he has 5 Attacks/melee, but I would have thought he had 3 from HTH Expert. What am I missing??

It is because the Rifters writing and editing the books keep forgetting that the APM in PF are different then those in RIfts and HU.

[gdub411]

Well, right or wrong, I think I am going to try what it says in PF. So generally a 1st level PC has 2 attacks(perhaps 3 with boxing) or 1 if an assassin. Thanks for the input guys. I appreciate it.

[Tyberius]

Well, right or wrong, I think I am going to try what it says in PF. So generally a 1st level PC has 2 attacks(perhaps 3 with boxing) or 1 if an assassin. Thanks for the input guys. I appreciate it.

i'm going with this, and if it's lacking, i'll change my mind then.

[Justthis Guy]

Also here are some npc/pc if you want, all of their info is correct. Also their all level four.

Kobold scholar.
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-wLkEs4gtL6SUF6d2R0MXdiQm8
Wolfen Earth Warlock
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-wLkEs4gtL6d09TWDJlZ25qYk0
Coyle Pirate
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-wLkEs4gtL6cWFiME5VMlpyeHM
Human Priestess
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-wLkEs4gtL6UlFMWjByZmo0LUU
Orc Mercenary
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-wLkEs4gtL6T0pkS2JucjNPMVE
Human Paladin
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-wLkEs4gtL6M3gxTDRTQ201N2s

Those are great character sheets! do you have a template that you can share that can be edited (filled in by me)?

[Soldier of Od]

Well, right or wrong, I think I am going to try what it says in PF. So generally a 1st level PC has 2 attacks(perhaps 3 with boxing) or 1 if an assassin. Thanks for the input guys. I appreciate it.

This is what we do.

Old editions of HU, BTS, Rifts etc. had hand to hand entries that said 'two attacks per melee' but didn't specifically say whether that was two more attacks per melee or two base attacks. A lot of confusion arose due to poorly arranged information and inconsistent NPCs.

As the revised editions of some games came out, clarity was improved by adding the words 'Starts with x attacks'; so Rifts UE, ATB and BTS II all say 'Starts with four attacks', making it clear. The second edition of Palladium Fantasy now says 'Starts with two attacks', which I think is also clear. Rifts is four attacks. Palladium Fantasy is two. Don't ask me why they are different.

If there is an additional 'two attacks for living' rule that is still in place for all of the revised editions of the games, then wouldn't that mean these two attacks would need to be added to all of the games, so Palladium Fantasy would now start at four attacks, and Rifts would jump to six? I don't think so. The two attacks for living rule was in place in the earlier editions of some of the games, and the second editions clarify that these two attacks are now incorporated into the hand to hand tables where appropriate.

[Prysus]

Well, right or wrong, I think I am going to try what it says in PF. So generally a 1st level PC has 2 attacks(perhaps 3 with boxing) or 1 if an assassin. Thanks for the input guys. I appreciate it.

This is what we do.

Old editions of HU, BTS, Rifts etc. had hand to hand entries that said 'two attacks per melee' but didn't specifically say whether that was two more attacks per melee or two base attacks. A lot of confusion arose due to poorly arranged information and inconsistent NPCs.

As the revised editions of some games came out, clarity was improved by adding the words 'Starts with x attacks'; so Rifts UE, ATB and BTS II all say 'Starts with four attacks', making it clear. The second edition of Palladium Fantasy now says 'Starts with two attacks', which I think is also clear. Rifts is four attacks. Palladium Fantasy is two. Don't ask me why they are different.

If there is an additional 'two attacks for living' rule that is still in place for all of the revised editions of the games, then wouldn't that mean these two attacks would need to be added to all of the games, so Palladium Fantasy would now start at four attacks, and Rifts would jump to six? I don't think so. The two attacks for living rule was in place in the earlier editions of some of the games, and the second editions clarify that these two attacks are now incorporated into the hand to hand tables where appropriate.

Greetings and Salutations. There's one problem with the logic. PF2 was updated to fall in line with systems such as Rifts (original), by adding things like S.D.C. and P.P.E. (both of which we see in the original Rifts), as well as falling into line with the standard four hand to hand styles (for better or worse). Books such as R:UE and BtS2 came out close to a decade after the release of PF2.

Now I'm not saying that you need to change the way you play, but saying PF2 is updated with RUE is misleading. PF2 is up to date with the original Rifts main book (which also "clearly" said "Starts with two attacks" the same as PF2). Over the years you'll even start to see the change in the Attacks Per Melee for some of the NPC (though inconsistent at times).

PF2, though an updated version of PF1, is not as up to date as many of the current books. This is why (at times) Kevin has mentioned he's toyed with the idea of a Palladium Fantasy Ultimate Edition. Logic would suggest he wouldn't do it because PF2 is already up to date, but because it is NOT. If we ever do see a PF:UE, I'll put money that we'll see "Starts with four attacks per melee" as one of the changes to fall in line with the rest of the Megaverse. I've never heard him address the APM specifically, but I'm not going to ignore the signs either.

Again, you're welcome to play the way you like, but I just take issue when someone tries to pass off PF2 as up to date with RUE and BtS2, because it's just not true. While PF2 was a nice update to bring PF into line with the rest of the Megaverse, the sad truth is the Megaverse has seen another face lift in the last 16 years since PF2 was released.

Anyways, I think that's all for now. I should get some rest for work tonight. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Soldier of Od]

Now I'm not saying that you need to change the way you play, but saying PF2 is updated with RUE is misleading. PF2 is up to date with the original Rifts main book (which also "clearly" said "Starts with two attacks" the same as PF2). Over the years you'll even start to see the change in the Attacks Per Melee for some of the NPC (though inconsistent at times).

Hi Prysus. Thanks for the input. I didn't mean to say that PF2 was updated with RUE, sorry if that was misleading, I know that they were done quite a ways apart and things may have changed since then. But that doesn't change the fact that the wording in PF2 was changed to make the starting attacks clearer. Just that in other games since then the decision was made that the more recent updates were to four attacks instead of PF's update to only two.

I just checked my copy of Rifts first edition and it doesn't say 'starts with' as you say here; it just says 'two attacks', just like the other earlier edition games. PF2 is the first one to add that.

If we ever do see a PF:UE, I'll put money that we'll see "Starts with four attacks per melee" as one of the changes to fall in line with the rest of the Megaverse.

Yep, I am sure you are correct there. But as that has not been done yet, the current edition is still two.

Again, you're welcome to play the way you like, but I just take issue when someone tries to pass off PF2 as up to date with RUE and BtS2, because it's just not true.

Again, just want to be clear, that is not what I meant to say. Just that the attacks per melee issue was addressed in the PF update, and then addressed in a different way in some of the later updates.

I also am not trying to make people play in any particular way - we are all free to change the current Palladium Fantasy rules to something nearer the other games if we want to! Whatever works for you!

[Prysus]

Hi Prysus. Thanks for the input. I didn't mean to say that PF2 was updated with RUE, sorry if that was misleading, I know that they were done quite a ways apart and things may have changed since then. But that doesn't change the fact that the wording in PF2 was changed to make the starting attacks clearer. Just that in other games since then the decision was made that the more recent updates were to four attacks instead of PF's update to only two.

Greetings and Salutations. Okay, cool. Glad I misunderstood what you meant then.

I just checked my copy of Rifts first edition and it doesn't say 'starts with' as you say here; it just says 'two attacks', just like the other earlier edition games. PF2 is the first one to add that.

Fasincating! Okay, this DOES get interesting. I'll start by saying I was wrong. This is a happy wrong though, because I got to learn something. Well, sort of. So I went to check Rifts, and I did remember it wrong. I thought it was the same wording, but it wasn't. With that said, the wording does get ... odd.

Rifts (12th Printing, I don't have a 1st Printing) ...
HtH: Basic ... "Two attacks per melee." (Very vague indeed!)
HtH: Expert ... "Two attacks per melee to start" (Kind of the same as the other wording, except "to start" is at the end instead of "Starts with" at the beginning)
HtH: MA ... "Two attacks per melee to start" (See the expert notation).
HtH: Assassin ... "(one attack per melee)" (Not only vague, but oddly included too)

BtS (1st Edition) ...
HtH: Basic ... "Two attacks per melee to start" (back to the Rifts HtH Expert notation, but this time included in Basic as well)
HtH: Expert through Assassin are the same as the Rifts versions above.

Nightbane ...
HtH: Basic ... "Two attacks per melee" (back to vagueness!)
HtH: Expert ... "Two attacks per melee" (see above)
HtH: MA ... "Two attacks per melee" (see double above)
HtH: Assassin ... " " (that's right, nothing!)

Heroes Unlimited Second Edition ...
"An additional ..." (clear enough, though without knowing the 2 AFL rule, still confusing)

What have I learned about this? Wow did Palladium do some very odd things! It started with Beyond the Supernatural, which had fairly clearly wording. Then went to Rifts, which kept some (and changed some). Then went to Nightbane (the vaguest yet!). Then PF (fairly clear). Then to Heroes Unlimited (a mixed bag, because it's clear and yet involves jumping around the book). They finally started getting some consistency (and clarity) in the era of around AtB2 and RGMG and everything after.

All in all, I found this very educational. Some of the changes were just right down crazy. Anyways, I think that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[MaxxSterling]

Check out Rifts Ultimate Edition for even more fun confusion. I really don't understand how a "universal" system can be so jacked up. No wonder people abandon this company for GURPS. I don't really care for that system, but everything lines up brilliantly.

I mean, for cryin' out loud, in PFRPG last night, my thief player tried to buy lockpicks and they aren't even listed in the items section of the book... I mean, that is beyond FAIL in my mind.

[The Dark Elf]

Heroes Unlimited Second Edition ...
"An additional ..." (clear enough, though without knowing the 2 AFL rule, still confusing)

IIRC you should see a glossary section prior to the HTH types. In there it will state "number of attacks" and somthing along the lines of most players start with two attacks.

That isnt included in the glossary of PFRPG although no HTH is.

[Soldier of Od]

Hi Prysus. Thanks for the input. I didn't mean to say that PF2 was updated with RUE, sorry if that was misleading, I know that they were done quite a ways apart and things may have changed since then. But that doesn't change the fact that the wording in PF2 was changed to make the starting attacks clearer. Just that in other games since then the decision was made that the more recent updates were to four attacks instead of PF's update to only two.

Greetings and Salutations. Okay, cool. Glad I misunderstood what you meant then.

I just checked my copy of Rifts first edition and it doesn't say 'starts with' as you say here; it just says 'two attacks', just like the other earlier edition games. PF2 is the first one to add that.

Fasincating! Okay, this DOES get interesting. I'll start by saying I was wrong. This is a happy wrong though, because I got to learn something. Well, sort of. So I went to check Rifts, and I did remember it wrong. I thought it was the same wording, but it wasn't. With that said, the wording does get ... odd.

Rifts (12th Printing, I don't have a 1st Printing) ...
HtH: Basic ... "Two attacks per melee." (Very vague indeed!)
HtH: Expert ... "Two attacks per melee to start" (Kind of the same as the other wording, except "to start" is at the end instead of "Starts with" at the beginning)
HtH: MA ... "Two attacks per melee to start" (See the expert notation).
HtH: Assassin ... "(one attack per melee)" (Not only vague, but oddly included too)

BtS (1st Edition) ...
HtH: Basic ... "Two attacks per melee to start" (back to the Rifts HtH Expert notation, but this time included in Basic as well)
HtH: Expert through Assassin are the same as the Rifts versions above.

Nightbane ...
HtH: Basic ... "Two attacks per melee" (back to vagueness!)
HtH: Expert ... "Two attacks per melee" (see above)
HtH: MA ... "Two attacks per melee" (see double above)
HtH: Assassin ... " " (that's right, nothing!)

Heroes Unlimited Second Edition ...
"An additional ..." (clear enough, though without knowing the 2 AFL rule, still confusing)

What have I learned about this? Wow did Palladium do some very odd things! It started with Beyond the Supernatural, which had fairly clearly wording. Then went to Rifts, which kept some (and changed some). Then went to Nightbane (the vaguest yet!). Then PF (fairly clear). Then to Heroes Unlimited (a mixed bag, because it's clear and yet involves jumping around the book). They finally started getting some consistency (and clarity) in the era of around AtB2 and RGMG and everything after.

All in all, I found this very educational. Some of the changes were just right down crazy. Anyways, I think that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

I love Palladium! No wonder the original poster was confused!