Tolkeen - Evil?

[Gamer]

There were losses to the CS in manpower and they are rebuilding.

This is actually one of the most common complaints about the Tolkeen War.
Aftermath pretty much retconned the entire war.
It declared that the people the CS lost in the war were all Mercs or non-citizens that occupied the burbs. The net loss of CS soldiers from the Tolkeen war was 0.

Aside from the ridiculousness of that notion, it trivialized the whole thing - without the CS losing anything, it wasn't a war. It was merely just another massacre barely worth mentioning.

Yet page 138 of Aftermath says you are completely wrong.
Estimated 405,000 CS troops killed, 1.5 million wounded.
'and that does not include dog boys or hired mercenaries and agents which would easily put the number near 600,000'.
That seems to be a bit different than 0 I do believe.
So what if they used 'undesireables' from the burbs, you think that wasn't done anywhere in history at all?

I thought about transcribing the relevant information to you here but there is too much of it, instead I'll ask that you keep reading onto page 139.
It is pretty clear that the only loss worth mentioning was the Navy, beyond that the losses amounted to nothing.
Tolkeen didn't even have anything to do with the Navy, that was all Free Quebec's doing.

Oh I read it, you need to learn the concept of volunteer recruits, they are still troops, they are still given training and weaponry.
Their casualty rate is going to be high as they are not exerienced combat veterans, the losses in the vietnam war -as in all wars throughout all of history- for new recruits was way higher than the experienced vets.

But hey if you want to think they just rounded up people gave them t-shirts that says 'cannon fodder' and a laser rifle and told to charge when called for and that there was no army ther just a mob of unwanteds in t-shirts shorts and a laser rifle charging then be my guest, your still wrong.

It is pretty clear that the only loss worth mentioning was the Navy

Go read it again please, I dare ya.
Your wrong again, but you are right on one thing it is pretty clear.
It says 'In fact the Coalitions greatest material loss has been the loss of it's navy'
That means equipment and only equipment.
Material losses does not equal men and losses of men does not equal material.
Militaries around the world throughout all of history has been doing this, seperating their losses of men and material.
If your going to refer to something in the books as proof at least make sure it really means what you think it does.

[Nightmask]

There were losses to the CS in manpower and they are rebuilding.

This is actually one of the most common complaints about the Tolkeen War.
Aftermath pretty much retconned the entire war.
It declared that the people the CS lost in the war were all Mercs or non-citizens that occupied the burbs. The net loss of CS soldiers from the Tolkeen war was 0.

Aside from the ridiculousness of that notion, it trivialized the whole thing - without the CS losing anything, it wasn't a war. It was merely just another massacre barely worth mentioning.

Yet page 138 of Aftermath says you are completely wrong.
Estimated 405,000 CS troops killed, 1.5 million wounded.
'and that does not include dog boys or hired mercenaries and agents which would easily put the number near 600,000'.
That seems to be a bit different than 0 I do believe.
So what if they used 'undesireables' from the burbs, you think that wasn't done anywhere in history at all?

I thought about transcribing the relevant information to you here but there is too much of it, instead I'll ask that you keep reading onto page 139.
It is pretty clear that the only loss worth mentioning was the Navy, beyond that the losses amounted to nothing.
Tolkeen didn't even have anything to do with the Navy, that was all Free Quebec's doing.

Oh I read it, you need to learn the concept of volunteer recruits, they are still troops, they are still given training and weaponry.
Their casualty rate is going to be high as they are not exerienced combat veterans, the losses in the vietnam war -as in all wars throughout all of history- for new recruits was way higher than the experienced vets.

But hey if you want to think they just rounded up people gave them t-shirts that says 'cannon fodder' and a laser rifle and told to charge when called for and that there was no army ther just a mob of unwanteds in t-shirts shorts and a laser rifle charging then be my guest, your still wrong.

It is pretty clear that the only loss worth mentioning was the Navy

Go read it again please, I dare ya.
Your wrong again, but you are right on one thing it is pretty clear.
It says 'In fact the Coalitions greatest material loss has been the loss of it's navy'
That means equipment and only equipment.
Material losses does not equal men and losses of men does not equal material.
Militaries around the world throughout all of history has been doing this, seperating their losses of men and material.
If your going to refer to something in the books as proof at least make sure it really means what you think it does.

The Burbs troops were cannon fodder, people the CS considers worthless and expendable, it doesn't matter if they were told 'well if you fight for us it just might get your family in' they were never expected to survive and never considered to have worth as human beings. They were promised something the CS never intended to pay off on and never planned on them surviving to receive which is horribly evil.

[Pepsi Jedi]

People think tolkeen was evil .. for forcing Demons to fight for them ..

All the while thinking it was ok .. that Coalition used the burbs population as canon fodder ..

this makes me giggle..

Because they didn't use them as canon fodder. You just hate the CS. As clear over dozens if not 100s of posts.

What you're forgetting is that the war started, then Tolkeen did the Sorcerers Revenge. Then people FLOCKED to join up to the military, get trained and be deployed. They wanted to go help fight the demon hordes and keep their country safe. Keep their family safe.

Sound familiar?

If not, google 9/11 and the dramatic jump in people joining our armed forces. Just after 9/11 they were turning people away, so many were trying to get in. Has it died down since? yeah, but it happened. That was direct real world relation that was used in the series.

[Pepsi Jedi]

So, if Tolkeen could have evacuated before the war, ie THE CHOICE. Couldn't the CS have made the same choice when the Federation attack them way back when? Why didn't they retreat? Were they evil for choosing to fight instead of run?

The CS won. The CS (( who used magic then)) Didn't rift in armies of demons to Win.

It's not that Tolkeen chose to fight. It's that they chose to "Cross that line" When they called in literal armies of demons to fight, that lost their 'high ground'.

[barna10]

No, most demons if summoned by a shifter are forced into service. once they lose the battle of wills the Demon must do the shifters biding. Granted some may have done it freely but their is a large difference between signing up for a war and being summoned and forced into a war.

So, doesn't this mean the real victims of this conflict were the Demons that were forced to fight and died? I think we should petition for a memorial to the fallen that fell in the conflict.

[barna10]

The CS won. The CS (( who used magic then)) Didn't rift in armies of demons to Win.

It's not that Tolkeen chose to fight. It's that they chose to "Cross that line" When they called in literal armies of demons to fight, that lost their 'high ground'.

Grey areas. One man's demon is another's angel of liberation.

Besides, how do we know the CS didn't summon demons to help in the fight? Is that fight as well chronicled as the Tolkeen conflict?

(please, if you would be so kind, list all references you can think of that chronicle the Fed/CS fight)

[barna10]

Because they didn't use them as canon fodder. You just hate the CS. As clear over dozens if not 100s of posts.

What you're forgetting is that the war started, then Tolkeen did the Sorcerers Revenge. Then people FLOCKED to join up to the military, get trained and be deployed. They wanted to go help fight the demon hordes and keep their country safe. Keep their family safe.

Sound familiar?

If not, google 9/11 and the dramatic jump in people joining our armed forces. Just after 9/11 they were turning people away, so many were trying to get in. Has it died down since? yeah, but it happened. That was direct real world relation that was used in the series.

I hate the Coalition. Liked them in the beginning, haven't liked anything that's been done with them since the original book came out. Liked them as villains, would never play anything but a deserter. I love magic, always have, always will.

Also, I'm no longer religious so my idea of "evil" is not the mainstream. War is neither good nor evil and "all's fair in love and war" is very true.

I think if Sun Tzu had magic, he would summon Demons to crush his enemies, if it was the most effective tactic.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The CS won. The CS (( who used magic then)) Didn't rift in armies of demons to Win.

It's not that Tolkeen chose to fight. It's that they chose to "Cross that line" When they called in literal armies of demons to fight, that lost their 'high ground'.

Grey areas. One man's demon is another's angel of liberation.

Besides, how do we know the CS didn't summon demons to help in the fight? Is that fight as well chronicled as the Tolkeen conflict?

(please, if you would be so kind, list all references you can think of that chronicle the Fed/CS fight)

No, this isn't speaking figuratively where one man's trash is another man's treasure, they ---were--- demons, as in real life 'demons'. Not just figurative bad folks.

As for the CS/FoM fight, look it up. I'm not going to waste time trying to find reference for the CS using demons when I know it's not there. lol If you think they DID use demons, you look it up and reference it.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Because they didn't use them as canon fodder. You just hate the CS. As clear over dozens if not 100s of posts.

What you're forgetting is that the war started, then Tolkeen did the Sorcerers Revenge. Then people FLOCKED to join up to the military, get trained and be deployed. They wanted to go help fight the demon hordes and keep their country safe. Keep their family safe.

Sound familiar?

If not, google 9/11 and the dramatic jump in people joining our armed forces. Just after 9/11 they were turning people away, so many were trying to get in. Has it died down since? yeah, but it happened. That was direct real world relation that was used in the series.

I hate the Coalition. Liked them in the beginning, haven't liked anything that's been done with them since the original book came out. Liked them as villains, would never play anything but a deserter. I love magic, always have, always will.

Also, I'm no longer religious so my idea of "evil" is not the mainstream. War is neither good nor evil and "all's fair in love and war" is very true.

I think if Sun Tzu had magic, he would summon Demons to crush his enemies, if it was the most effective tactic.

Thing is, we're not talking about your 'version' of evil and it not being mainstream, we're talking about evil demonic beings in the Rifts universe, wich are defined as such in this game world.

[barna10]

The CS won. The CS (( who used magic then)) Didn't rift in armies of demons to Win.

It's not that Tolkeen chose to fight. It's that they chose to "Cross that line" When they called in literal armies of demons to fight, that lost their 'high ground'.

Grey areas. One man's demon is another's angel of liberation.

Besides, how do we know the CS didn't summon demons to help in the fight? Is that fight as well chronicled as the Tolkeen conflict?

(please, if you would be so kind, list all references you can think of that chronicle the Fed/CS fight)

No, this isn't speaking figuratively where one man's trash is another man's treasure, they ---were--- demons, as in real life 'demons'. Not just figurative bad folks.

As for the CS/FoM fight, look it up. I'm not going to waste time trying to find reference for the CS using demons when I know it's not there. lol If you think they DID use demons, you look it up and reference it.

I'm not asking for a reference to the CS using demons, I'm just asking for any reference to the CS/Fed fight. I'd like to read about it, that's all. Sorry if you thought I was asking for something else.

[barna10]

Because they didn't use them as canon fodder. You just hate the CS. As clear over dozens if not 100s of posts.

What you're forgetting is that the war started, then Tolkeen did the Sorcerers Revenge. Then people FLOCKED to join up to the military, get trained and be deployed. They wanted to go help fight the demon hordes and keep their country safe. Keep their family safe.

Sound familiar?

If not, google 9/11 and the dramatic jump in people joining our armed forces. Just after 9/11 they were turning people away, so many were trying to get in. Has it died down since? yeah, but it happened. That was direct real world relation that was used in the series.

I hate the Coalition. Liked them in the beginning, haven't liked anything that's been done with them since the original book came out. Liked them as villains, would never play anything but a deserter. I love magic, always have, always will.

Also, I'm no longer religious so my idea of "evil" is not the mainstream. War is neither good nor evil and "all's fair in love and war" is very true.

I think if Sun Tzu had magic, he would summon Demons to crush his enemies, if it was the most effective tactic.

Thing is, we're not talking about your 'version' of evil and it not being mainstream, we're talking about evil demonic beings in the Rifts universe, wich are defined as such in this game world.

For the record, it's not "my" version of evil. While I wish I were one of the great philosophers that originally debated the nature of evil and the universe, I'm not. Regardless, I wish other philosophies besides the classic Christian view were expressed. Since it is a megaverse, you'd think other views would be present (Buddhist, Hindu, Zen, etc.). Heck, some philosophies/religions don't even have an "evil".

Regardless, I stand by "all's fair in love and war". War is nasty. Every side does stuff that those on the outside would consider "evil".

[Pepsi Jedi]

The CS won. The CS (( who used magic then)) Didn't rift in armies of demons to Win.

It's not that Tolkeen chose to fight. It's that they chose to "Cross that line" When they called in literal armies of demons to fight, that lost their 'high ground'.

Grey areas. One man's demon is another's angel of liberation.

Besides, how do we know the CS didn't summon demons to help in the fight? Is that fight as well chronicled as the Tolkeen conflict?

(please, if you would be so kind, list all references you can think of that chronicle the Fed/CS fight)

No, this isn't speaking figuratively where one man's trash is another man's treasure, they ---were--- demons, as in real life 'demons'. Not just figurative bad folks.

As for the CS/FoM fight, look it up. I'm not going to waste time trying to find reference for the CS using demons when I know it's not there. lol If you think they DID use demons, you look it up and reference it.

I'm not asking for a reference to the CS using demons, I'm just asking for any reference to the CS/Fed fight. I'd like to read about it, that's all. Sorry if you thought I was asking for something else.

My bad. I apoligise.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Because they didn't use them as canon fodder. You just hate the CS. As clear over dozens if not 100s of posts.

What you're forgetting is that the war started, then Tolkeen did the Sorcerers Revenge. Then people FLOCKED to join up to the military, get trained and be deployed. They wanted to go help fight the demon hordes and keep their country safe. Keep their family safe.

Sound familiar?

If not, google 9/11 and the dramatic jump in people joining our armed forces. Just after 9/11 they were turning people away, so many were trying to get in. Has it died down since? yeah, but it happened. That was direct real world relation that was used in the series.

I hate the Coalition. Liked them in the beginning, haven't liked anything that's been done with them since the original book came out. Liked them as villains, would never play anything but a deserter. I love magic, always have, always will.

Also, I'm no longer religious so my idea of "evil" is not the mainstream. War is neither good nor evil and "all's fair in love and war" is very true.

I think if Sun Tzu had magic, he would summon Demons to crush his enemies, if it was the most effective tactic.

Thing is, we're not talking about your 'version' of evil and it not being mainstream, we're talking about evil demonic beings in the Rifts universe, wich are defined as such in this game world.

For the record, it's not "my" version of evil. While I wish I were one of the great philosophers that originally debated the nature of evil and the universe, I'm not. Regardless, I wish other philosophies besides the classic Christian view were expressed. Since it is a megaverse, you'd think other views would be present (Buddhist, Hindu, Zen, etc.). Heck, some philosophies/religions don't even have an "evil".

Regardless, I stand by "all's fair in love and war". War is nasty. Every side does stuff that those on the outside would consider "evil".

And even in war there are lines that are pretty firmly held, that if one crosses, is considered above and beyond. In this case, the use of literal army's of demons is one of those things.

[Lenwen]

The way I see it on the larger picture ..

Tolkeen fell to eventually become the same alignment's as those of the Coalition.

Everyone says not everyone in the CS is evil .. only their leadership ..

Same exact thing could be applied to tolkeen by the end of the war ..

Yet people wanna throw Tolkeen under the bus for being "evil" .. while not actually LOOKING .. at the big picture of both powers..

Start of war = Tolkeen = Good guys, Coalition Leadership = (evil as demons)

End of war = Tolkeen leadership = evil same exactly as the Coalition..

[Giant2005]

There were losses to the CS in manpower and they are rebuilding.

This is actually one of the most common complaints about the Tolkeen War.
Aftermath pretty much retconned the entire war.
It declared that the people the CS lost in the war were all Mercs or non-citizens that occupied the burbs. The net loss of CS soldiers from the Tolkeen war was 0.

Aside from the ridiculousness of that notion, it trivialized the whole thing - without the CS losing anything, it wasn't a war. It was merely just another massacre barely worth mentioning.

Yet page 138 of Aftermath says you are completely wrong.
Estimated 405,000 CS troops killed, 1.5 million wounded.
'and that does not include dog boys or hired mercenaries and agents which would easily put the number near 600,000'.
That seems to be a bit different than 0 I do believe.
So what if they used 'undesireables' from the burbs, you think that wasn't done anywhere in history at all?

I thought about transcribing the relevant information to you here but there is too much of it, instead I'll ask that you keep reading onto page 139.
It is pretty clear that the only loss worth mentioning was the Navy, beyond that the losses amounted to nothing.
Tolkeen didn't even have anything to do with the Navy, that was all Free Quebec's doing.

Oh I read it, you need to learn the concept of volunteer recruits, they are still troops, they are still given training and weaponry.
Their casualty rate is going to be high as they are not exerienced combat veterans, the losses in the vietnam war -as in all wars throughout all of history- for new recruits was way higher than the experienced vets.

But hey if you want to think they just rounded up people gave them t-shirts that says 'cannon fodder' and a laser rifle and told to charge when called for and that there was no army ther just a mob of unwanteds in t-shirts shorts and a laser rifle charging then be my guest, your still wrong.

It is pretty clear that the only loss worth mentioning was the Navy

Go read it again please, I dare ya.
Your wrong again, but you are right on one thing it is pretty clear.
It says 'In fact the Coalitions greatest material loss has been the loss of it's navy'
That means equipment and only equipment.
Material losses does not equal men and losses of men does not equal material.
Militaries around the world throughout all of history has been doing this, seperating their losses of men and material.
If your going to refer to something in the books as proof at least make sure it really means what you think it does.

You just re-emphasized the fact that it means exactly what I think it does...
My whole point is the fact that the CS suffered no net loss of lives, I'm not sure why you would think I'd be trying to support the opposite assessment with that in mind.
The books are very clear about it - those that died were mercs and the dregs of humanity that were of no consequence. their deaths inspired more dregs of humanity to join the CS ranks which replaces the entirety of their losses. Hence, no net loss.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. I've been debating (a while) about whether or not I should make a post in this thread. I really rather not, but somehow I feel the need all the same. I have no affinity for the CS nor magic. I'm not even a Rifts fan (I play other Palladium settings, just not Rifts). While I've never read the Coalition Wars: Siege of Tolkeen series, I've followed a few threads such as this before. So I'll just make a few points.

1: Was it evil to stay and fight?
No. I could be mistaken, but I don't think anyone has really made that claim. The claim people have made is that it was idiotic/stupid/foolish. To that, there's a fair bit of truth. Before I saw more, I'll post this link (less than 2 minute clip):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8JaLgHowNI

Heroism and bravery, as much as I respect those traits, tend to be foolish. The reason they're heroic and brave (and not common) is because anyone with good sense wouldn't do them. If they were logical and intelligent thing to do, then everyone would do them. Let's look at two in real life examples.

300 (mentioned earlier) and the Alamo. Both of them have small armies holding off for days a considerably larger force. Both forces could've easily run, but they didn't. They stood, fought the good fight, and they died. They knew they were going to die, but they fought anyways. They fought for a cause, they fought to buy others time, they fought to inspire others to their cause.

This is not Tolkeen. Tolkeen thought they could win. They didn't fight the good fight, but resorted to evil (addressed more below). They didn't take actions that inspired others (they actually drove allies away). They fought to protect their homes. While that's admirable, they gave up who they were to do it (not so admirable).

2. Was Tolkeen evil?
As my above point suggests, by the end of the war, yes. They may not have started off that way, but they ended up that way (which is perhaps the most tragic part of this all). Despite what people in this thread have said: Two wrongs do NOT make a right.

Tolkeen used demons, basically the incarnation of evil by the books. Demons that they could not fully control, that attacked alllies, and once let unleashed could (and I'm sure those that lived and remain did) attack innocents not even involved in the war. It's like unleashing a plague on the world. When first unleashed they may (primarily) kill your enemy. But once unleashed, they're not going to STOP there (demons have a way of having their own plots and devices).

Now, they did this to protect their homes. Is that understandable? Sure! I can understand it. I can probably even sympathise. But I'm not going to mislead anyone and say it wasn't evil.

3. Do you need to hold the high ground in a war?
Nope! When fighting for your life, you can do what you need to do. War can be dark and ugly, and you can sink as low as you want if you want to win. Just don't claim you're the good guy while doing it.

The reason I said this was tragic though is because (as many have pointed out earlier) Tolkeen didn't start off this evil. That means to win the war, they gave up being who they were. They let go of their ideals and principles, and even if they won the war they'd have still lost (at least in my opinion). I'd like to think if they held onto the high ground, things may have ended up differently (see below for more details).

4. Asked earlier, how might we have liked to see the war go differentlly?
Well, without knowing the Rifts world that well, I'd like to think of two alternates. So I'll address those here (there may be some discrepencies as I only have a limited knowledge of the setting).

4a. Tolkeen Stands Tall.
Tolkeen knows they're fighting a losing war, but they're doing the right thing. So they hold their position, prepare the best they can, and hold strong. There may be an evil act here or there, but these are the acts of individuals and not tolerated. The CS continues to batter them down. Tolkeen may be able to perform some guerilla style tactics, but all in all they're just holding position. This is the Troy, the Alamo, or even the 300. They're best offense is a strong defense, and most of the CS losses are suffered in attempts to breach these defenses. Though Tolkeen can never win the war this way, they're not fighting a war. They're fighting to protect their homes!

The other nations become inspired by the defiance of the Tolkeen "because they stand on a wall and say 'Nothing's going to hurt you tonight, not on my watch.'" This could go one of two ways.

1: Tolkeen falls. They fight the good fight, but this was a fight they could've never won. The other nations rally together. Even though they've won, they've spent a lot of manpower and resources on defeating Tolkeen. Their weak and hurt. With all the other nations so moved by the fall of Tolkeen, the CS realizes that they wolves are at the gates. This may not be the fall of the CS, but they know one wrong move and their enemies will smell fresh blood and pounce. The other nations may not be able to strike right this moment, but they're circling and possibly striking deals amongst each other.

2: The CS is close to defeating Tolkeen. Tolkeen's defenses are weakening, but the CS has expended a lot of resources and will need to expend more before they can win this war. Striking out of nowhere, one of the other nations hits the CS supply lines. Not just taking a few supply lines, but cutting off the sieging forces entirely! The sieging forces have a choice: Hold the siege around the city or htey can continue their assault, but doing so can weaken their position. Meanwhile, the other CS forces are gearing up to break through the enemy forces cutting them off. They can break through this line, but it'll cost even more forces. Without the demon assaults, they're still at war with Free Quebec, drawing even more of their forces. As the CS gear up to break through the enemy defense line, a third nation starts to circle around the CS's flank. They haven't attacked yet, but the CS is seeing troop movements and know an attack is imminent.

Now they're facing 4 separate wars! Defeating each of these enemies is possible, but fighting them all at once is madness. Maybe, just maybe, the CS can win against ALL of these wars. It'll be long, hard fought, and very very bloody. However even if they DO manage to defeat all their enemies, they'll have lost so much that there would basically be no nation left. They'd have lost most of their cities, most of their military, their walls would be battered and crushed, and anyone who comes knocking would be able to march right in.

The CS realizes that the cost of victory is too high and pull back. The other nations allow the sieging CS forces to retreat. They could leave them cut off and wipe them out, but this isn't a war they want to fight any more than the CS does. Besides, they're the good guys. They don't start wars, they just fight the ones that need to be fought.

Note: While this could be a nice tale, unfortunately it leaves the world much unchanged.

4b. Tolkeen Descends to Evil.
Well, this part is the same. Unlike what Pepsi Jedi said earlier, the CS does NOT start with a nuke. This is something the CS debates, but they decide that they decide it's too risky. Sure it can end the war quickly, but they'd cause a panic. The rest of the world would see this and just say: "Oh crap! The CS will just nuke us all!" They'll be fighting wars from the other North America powers in a hurry, and they're just not ready for this large of a scale battle. Go in small land/air battle, and the other nations may decide it's not their fight. They may even figure: "Hey, the CS spent so much forces on Tolkeen, they won't mess with us." So while this will make the Tolkeen War a much tougher battle, it's the safer route.

Tolkeen descends into evil, using demons and such just like they did. We're nearing the end of the war. There's no mysterious trek through the Xiticix territory or anything like that. One guerilla cell from Tolkeen decide that they're still doing, and they have to make the CS bleed if they want to win. They decide to turn the CS's weapons of mass destruction against them. Not sure of the details, but the group attempts to infiltrate a CS nuclear facility. They all die, but not before their last member manages to activate ONE nuke. The nuke hits a CS city (one that's dramatic, but not so dramatic to affect game play).

Everyone goes: ! In part the other nations rejoice. The CS, this dreaded horrible enemy, just got hit with this massive blow. But they also know it was a lot of innocent civilians and that it wasn't right. ((Hey, you can be happy your enemy got their teeth kicked in but don't have to like the way it was done.))

After this is done, the CS basically says: "Screw it!" They call in a nuke attack on Tolkeen. Tolkeen is hit, and done for.

The rest of the world realizes that Tolkeen brought this on themselves. At the same time, they're saying: "Oh crap, oh crap, oh crap!" The CS may have been horrible monsters before, but they didn't use nukes. Now? They see the CS as that wounded and bloody animal, and they don't know what it might do next. On one hand they don't want to attack the CS, because Tolkeen kind of brought it on themselves and maybe the CS won't target them next. On the other hand, the CS may just say: "You know what?! You were their friend! You're next!" So this horrible enemy has just become 10x scarier.

--------------

Okay, that's all for now. I just wanted to address a few of the topics. Question 4 was asked earlier (by someone), and I responded solely in a story type of what could have been cool to see. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Greetings and Salutations. I've been debating (a while) about whether or not I should make a post in this thread. I really rather not, but somehow I feel the need all the same. I have no affinity for the CS nor magic. I'm not even a Rifts fan (I play other Palladium settings, just not Rifts). While I've never read the Coalition Wars: Siege of Tolkeen series, I've followed a few threads such as this before. So I'll just make a few points.

1: Was it evil to stay and fight?
No. I could be mistaken, but I don't think anyone has really made that claim. The claim people have made is that it was idiotic/stupid/foolish. To that, there's a fair bit of truth. Before I saw more, I'll post this link (less than 2 minute clip):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8JaLgHowNI

Heroism and bravery, as much as I respect those traits, tend to be foolish. The reason they're heroic and brave (and not common) is because anyone with good sense wouldn't do them. If they were logical and intelligent thing to do, then everyone would do them. Let's look at two in real life examples.

300 (mentioned earlier) and the Alamo. Both of them have small armies holding off for days a considerably larger force. Both forces could've easily run, but they didn't. They stood, fought the good fight, and they died. They knew they were going to die, but they fought anyways. They fought for a cause, they fought to buy others time, they fought to inspire others to their cause.

This is not Tolkeen. Tolkeen thought they could win. They didn't fight the good fight, but resorted to evil (addressed more below). They didn't take actions that inspired others (they actually drove allies away). They fought to protect their homes. While that's admirable, they gave up who they were to do it (not so admirable).

2. Was Tolkeen evil?
As my above point suggests, by the end of the war, yes. They may not have started off that way, but they ended up that way (which is perhaps the most tragic part of this all). Despite what people in this thread have said: Two wrongs do NOT make a right.

Tolkeen used demons, basically the incarnation of evil by the books. Demons that they could not fully control, that attacked alllies, and once let unleashed could (and I'm sure those that lived and remain did) attack innocents not even involved in the war. It's like unleashing a plague on the world. When first unleashed they may (primarily) kill your enemy. But once unleashed, they're not going to STOP there (demons have a way of having their own plots and devices).

Now, they did this to protect their homes. Is that understandable? Sure! I can understand it. I can probably even sympathise. But I'm not going to mislead anyone and say it wasn't evil.

3. Do you need to hold the high ground in a war?
Nope! When fighting for your life, you can do what you need to do. War can be dark and ugly, and you can sink as low as you want if you want to win. Just don't claim you're the good guy while doing it.

The reason I said this was tragic though is because (as many have pointed out earlier) Tolkeen didn't start off this evil. That means to win the war, they gave up being who they were. They let go of their ideals and principles, and even if they won the war they'd have still lost (at least in my opinion). I'd like to think if they held onto the high ground, things may have ended up differently (see below for more details).

4. Asked earlier, how might we have liked to see the war go differentlly?
Well, without knowing the Rifts world that well, I'd like to think of two alternates. So I'll address those here (there may be some discrepencies as I only have a limited knowledge of the setting).

4a. Tolkeen Stands Tall.
Tolkeen knows they're fighting a losing war, but they're doing the right thing. So they hold their position, prepare the best they can, and hold strong. There may be an evil act here or there, but these are the acts of individuals and not tolerated. The CS continues to batter them down. Tolkeen may be able to perform some guerilla style tactics, but all in all they're just holding position. This is the Troy, the Alamo, or even the 300. They're best offense is a strong defense, and most of the CS losses are suffered in attempts to breach these defenses. Though Tolkeen can never win the war this way, they're not fighting a war. They're fighting to protect their homes!

The other nations become inspired by the defiance of the Tolkeen "because they stand on a wall and say 'Nothing's going to hurt you tonight, not on my watch.'" This could go one of two ways.

1: Tolkeen falls. They fight the good fight, but this was a fight they could've never won. The other nations rally together. Even though they've won, they've spent a lot of manpower and resources on defeating Tolkeen. Their weak and hurt. With all the other nations so moved by the fall of Tolkeen, the CS realizes that they wolves are at the gates. This may not be the fall of the CS, but they know one wrong move and their enemies will smell fresh blood and pounce. The other nations may not be able to strike right this moment, but they're circling and possibly striking deals amongst each other.

2: The CS is close to defeating Tolkeen. Tolkeen's defenses are weakening, but the CS has expended a lot of resources and will need to expend more before they can win this war. Striking out of nowhere, one of the other nations hits the CS supply lines. Not just taking a few supply lines, but cutting off the sieging forces entirely! The sieging forces have a choice: Hold the siege around the city or htey can continue their assault, but doing so can weaken their position. Meanwhile, the other CS forces are gearing up to break through the enemy forces cutting them off. They can break through this line, but it'll cost even more forces. Without the demon assaults, they're still at war with Free Quebec, drawing even more of their forces. As the CS gear up to break through the enemy defense line, a third nation starts to circle around the CS's flank. They haven't attacked yet, but the CS is seeing troop movements and know an attack is imminent.

Now they're facing 4 separate wars! Defeating each of these enemies is possible, but fighting them all at once is madness. Maybe, just maybe, the CS can win against ALL of these wars. It'll be long, hard fought, and very very bloody. However even if they DO manage to defeat all their enemies, they'll have lost so much that there would basically be no nation left. They'd have lost most of their cities, most of their military, their walls would be battered and crushed, and anyone who comes knocking would be able to march right in.

The CS realizes that the cost of victory is too high and pull back. The other nations allow the sieging CS forces to retreat. They could leave them cut off and wipe them out, but this isn't a war they want to fight any more than the CS does. Besides, they're the good guys. They don't start wars, they just fight the ones that need to be fought.

Note: While this could be a nice tale, unfortunately it leaves the world much unchanged.

4b. Tolkeen Descends to Evil.
Well, this part is the same. Unlike what Pepsi Jedi said earlier, the CS does NOT start with a nuke. This is something the CS debates, but they decide that they decide it's too risky. Sure it can end the war quickly, but they'd cause a panic. The rest of the world would see this and just say: "Oh crap! The CS will just nuke us all!" They'll be fighting wars from the other North America powers in a hurry, and they're just not ready for this large of a scale battle. Go in small land/air battle, and the other nations may decide it's not their fight. They may even figure: "Hey, the CS spent so much forces on Tolkeen, they won't mess with us." So while this will make the Tolkeen War a much tougher battle, it's the safer route.

Tolkeen descends into evil, using demons and such just like they did. We're nearing the end of the war. There's no mysterious trek through the Xiticix territory or anything like that. One guerilla cell from Tolkeen decide that they're still doing, and they have to make the CS bleed if they want to win. They decide to turn the CS's weapons of mass destruction against them. Not sure of the details, but the group attempts to infiltrate a CS nuclear facility. They all die, but not before their last member manages to activate ONE nuke. The nuke hits a CS city (one that's dramatic, but not so dramatic to affect game play).

Everyone goes: ! In part the other nations rejoice. The CS, this dreaded horrible enemy, just got hit with this massive blow. But they also know it was a lot of innocent civilians and that it wasn't right. ((Hey, you can be happy your enemy got their teeth kicked in but don't have to like the way it was done.))

After this is done, the CS basically says: "Screw it!" They call in a nuke attack on Tolkeen. Tolkeen is hit, and done for.

The rest of the world realizes that Tolkeen brought this on themselves. At the same time, they're saying: "Oh crap, oh crap, oh crap!" The CS may have been horrible monsters before, but they didn't use nukes. Now? They see the CS as that wounded and bloody animal, and they don't know what it might do next. On one hand they don't want to attack the CS, because Tolkeen kind of brought it on themselves and maybe the CS won't target them next. On the other hand, the CS may just say: "You know what?! You were their friend! You're next!" So this horrible enemy has just become 10x scarier.

--------------

Okay, that's all for now. I just wanted to address a few of the topics. Question 4 was asked earlier (by someone), and I responded solely in a story type of what could have been cool to see. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

excellent read. i like it

[Pepsi Jedi]

You just re-emphasized the fact that it means exactly what I think it does...
My whole point is the fact that the CS suffered no net loss of lives, I'm not sure why you would think I'd be trying to support the opposite assessment with that in mind.
The books are very clear about it - those that died were mercs and the dregs of humanity that were of no consequence. their deaths inspired more dregs of humanity to join the CS ranks which replaces the entirety of their losses. Hence, no net loss.

They still lost people. The fact that many were from the burbs doesn't mean they wern't lost. If nothing else, the CS can't "Empty out the burbs for new recruits again" Now that they've done it and lost many of them.

It's still a loss.

It IS kinda telling how some people see the poor and disenfranchised though. WOW. "No net loss" "Were of no consequence" "Dregs of humanity" lol

[Giant2005]

They still lost people. The fact that many were from the burbs doesn't mean they wern't lost. If nothing else, the CS can't "Empty out the burbs for new recruits again" Now that they've done it and lost many of them.

It's still a loss.

Fair point.

It IS kinda telling how some people see the poor and disenfranchised though. WOW. "No net loss" "Were of no consequence" "Dregs of humanity" lol

I was speaking from the CS's perspective .

[SAMASzero]

I would point out that the CS tried Nuking early in the war. Tolkieen happened to have the Rift Triangular Defense System + Swallowing Rift thing and nullified that.

My thoughts on the situation:

• Tolkeen was right to want to defend their homes. Erin, Lazlo and the others were, conversely also at least a little right in suggesting that they leave. In their eyes, the war was unwinnable, and thus it was better to swallow their pride and relocate. Better to run and have the strength to fight another day.
• Tolkeen's loss of the Moral High Ground during the war did not justify their destruction at the hands of the Coalition, nor did it make the CS the Good Guys in the war. The CS was seeking to destroy Tolkeen and exterminate it's people from the beginning of the war. Tolkeen's actions were part of the whole tragedy of the War: That a formerly peaceful nation was driven to such ends to save itself, but ultimately failed anyway.
• If I really wanted to grey up the war (not to mention put the outcome in doubt), Book 5 would've been less "Calm before the storm" and more "Now it's YOUR turn", with Tolkeen forces pushing into Coalition territory, doing some of the same things to Coalition towns and villages that they CS army did to theirs in books 1 and 2, and probably stretching themselves thinner in the process. The events of Book 6 would be pretty much the same otherwise, but now the term "Final Siege" could mean Tolkeen or Chi-Town. The cover would be more ambiguous, too, probably a Millipede IJ vs. a Skull-Smasher as the centerpiece.

[Hot Rod]

I haven't read through all of the Tolkeen books and I don't really want to, but. Do have a question: what WERE the reasons for staying. Other people in other threads have postulated what a magic-wielding nation state can do with mass teleportation (I'm looking at you, Lenwen). Was there some reason why they couldn't just leave? Some resource? Anything besides hubris?

Because if there's not I don't know why they wouldn't have bailed. There's a legion of whackos to the east that hate you for existing and a species of super insect to the north that want to dip me in barbecue sauce and eat me. If I were Creed I'd have teleported everything to Tahiti and called it a day. Enjoyed running the great states of Tolkeen augmented with little umbrella drinks

Tolkeen did have a rather favorable set of ley lines and nexus points around the city (which according to BoM would be hotly contested were it not already under control). The area would become in the aftermath another uncontrolled nexus triangle with random things being rifted in and out. Certainly not the kind of area the CS wants to control...

Again however I wonder WHY all the people (players) keep saying Tolkeenites should have left their homes to the big bad zenophobes who told them to move? IMO the CS should not have half the resources it has in cannon, the beehive cities may produce tech but require vast acreage to support all of which has to be defended. And does anyone really believe Florida should be vacated because Canadians want a vacation spot? (avoiding the more politically sensitive but accurate mid-east comparison) Would you give your house (complete with indoor pool, hot tub & sauna) to your neighbor just because he has a gun? What if your neighbor on the other side agreed you should move?

I see the whole plot line as a crazy 'what if' based on keeping the CS as a viable opponent. If Tolkeen had really been evil the demons would not have been unleashed (only) against CS soldiers, but civilians (same as the CS forces were unleashed against civilians). Chi town itself would have rifts to lower dimensions opened within, and soon become uninhabitable (by humans). As guerilla forces Tolkeenites could have taken the CS out if they were willing to stoop to the CS's level. Not only did the CS start the fight, but in using nukes right off the bat they proved they are as evil as is possible to become, If I ever had any desire to play a CS member this plot line eliminated it altogether.

HR

[Nightmask]

I haven't read through all of the Tolkeen books and I don't really want to, but. Do have a question: what WERE the reasons for staying. Other people in other threads have postulated what a magic-wielding nation state can do with mass teleportation (I'm looking at you, Lenwen). Was there some reason why they couldn't just leave? Some resource? Anything besides hubris?

Because if there's not I don't know why they wouldn't have bailed. There's a legion of whackos to the east that hate you for existing and a species of super insect to the north that want to dip me in barbecue sauce and eat me. If I were Creed I'd have teleported everything to Tahiti and called it a day. Enjoyed running the great states of Tolkeen augmented with little umbrella drinks

Tolkeen did have a rather favorable set of ley lines and nexus points around the city (which according to BoM would be hotly contested were it not already under control). The area would become in the aftermath another uncontrolled nexus triangle with random things being rifted in and out. Certainly not the kind of area the CS wants to control...

Again however I wonder WHY all the people (players) keep saying Tolkeenites should have left their homes to the big bad zenophobes who told them to move? IMO the CS should not have half the resources it has in cannon, the beehive cities may produce tech but require vast acreage to support all of which has to be defended. And does anyone really believe Florida should be vacated because Canadians want a vacation spot? (avoiding the more politically sensitive but accurate mid-east comparison) Would you give your house (complete with indoor pool, hot tub & sauna) to your neighbor just because he has a gun? What if your neighbor on the other side agreed you should move?

I see the whole plot line as a crazy 'what if' based on keeping the CS as a viable opponent. If Tolkeen had really been evil the demons would not have been unleashed (only) against CS soldiers, but civilians (same as the CS forces were unleashed against civilians). Chi town itself would have rifts to lower dimensions opened within, and soon become uninhabitable (by humans). As guerilla forces Tolkeenites could have taken the CS out if they were willing to stoop to the CS's level. Not only did the CS start the fight, but in using nukes right off the bat they proved they are as evil as is possible to become, If I ever had any desire to play a CS member this plot line eliminated it altogether.

HR

Well there is the option of the newly minted CS trooper who after seeing the horrors the CS unleashed against innocents promptly defected as he couldn't stomach being party to such evil. For most games I think that's generally how a CS trooper ends up in a non-CS approved party.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I haven't read through all of the Tolkeen books and I don't really want to, but. Do have a question: what WERE the reasons for staying. Other people in other threads have postulated what a magic-wielding nation state can do with mass teleportation (I'm looking at you, Lenwen). Was there some reason why they couldn't just leave? Some resource? Anything besides hubris?

Because if there's not I don't know why they wouldn't have bailed. There's a legion of whackos to the east that hate you for existing and a species of super insect to the north that want to dip me in barbecue sauce and eat me. If I were Creed I'd have teleported everything to Tahiti and called it a day. Enjoyed running the great states of Tolkeen augmented with little umbrella drinks

Tolkeen did have a rather favorable set of ley lines and nexus points around the city (which according to BoM would be hotly contested were it not already under control). The area would become in the aftermath another uncontrolled nexus triangle with random things being rifted in and out. Certainly not the kind of area the CS wants to control...

Again however I wonder WHY all the people (players) keep saying Tolkeenites should have left their homes to the big bad zenophobes who told them to move?

Simple. Because if you don't, the CS will come kill you all.

Oh look. They did. *Chuckles* Not trying to be a smartass, but that's the exact reason 'why'. Because the bigger badder folk would come kill um. That's pretty good reasoning.

IMO the CS should not have half the resources it has in cannon, the beehive cities may produce tech but require vast acreage to support all of which has to be defended.

Which they have. People overlook it but the CS does have LOADS of land populated by CS people that support the megacities. It talks about each Megacity having dozens of smaller cities around it and farm land around it. The central part of the US is held by the CS. They grow stuff there, and have tasty geneticly mutated cows which produce yummier tastier meat (Lone star talks about um)

It's just that "300 miles of farmland with farm hands" Doesn't a very fun adventure make, so the books "Focus" on the fun stuff.

And does anyone really believe Florida should be vacated because Canadians want a vacation spot? (avoiding the more politically sensitive but accurate mid-east comparison) Would you give your house (complete with indoor pool, hot tub & sauna) to your neighbor just because he has a gun? What if your neighbor on the other side agreed you should move?

Our world isn't like their world.

Their world, is 90% unclaimed wilderness. They really can just pick up and move, if the only other option is death. Your example is very bad though, if Canada tried to invade FL, the rest of the US would stomp their tiny lil military into the mud. Heck the Military in Floridia could probably stomp all of Canada's military.

The Neighbor having a gun doesn't work either because we can just call a cop and have him arrested. The CS are the biggest nation in NA by ----far----. Who are you going to get to play cop on that?

I get what you're trying to say you're not not articulating the argument very well.

I see the whole plot line as a crazy 'what if' based on keeping the CS as a viable opponent. If Tolkeen had really been evil the demons would not have been unleashed (only) against CS soldiers, but civilians (same as the CS forces were unleashed against civilians).

Because you're thinking "Movie" not "Reality" The demons were unleashed but Tolkeen wasn't right up against CS population centers. The Demons would have had to chase the CS troops allllll the way back into the CS, to get to the CS civilians. Those are long lines to support for 'Demons' and would take them away from the 'entrenched' city they were trying to protect.

If you have troops and are protecting an entrenched position, you don't send them out too far from your entrenched, defensible position.. because they can be lured into the wilds and taken out piece meal.

Also, in spite of how many troops the CS deployed to the field, they had just as many protecting their lands. I forget but I think Chi Town alone has something like 500,000 troops around it. It's not like they could just mosy on in.

The demons DID chase the CS pretty far, but not across 100s of miles and back into the CS seat of power.

Chi town itself would have rifts to lower dimensions opened within, and soon become uninhabitable (by humans).

This has been covered with the anti teleportaiton rings ect.

As guerilla forces Tolkeenites could have taken the CS out if they were willing to stoop to the CS's level. Not only did the CS start the fight, but in using nukes right off the bat they proved they are as evil as is possible to become, If I ever had any desire to play a CS member this plot line eliminated it altogether.
HR

But no nukes landed. *Shrugs* No harm no foul right? lol
And the thing is, the CS used nukes because they thought that Tolkeen was a city of evil magic using Demon loving mages.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnndd........ *looks at Tolkeen* A city full of Evil Magic using Demon lovin' Mages....

Self fullfilling prophecy perhaps, but the fact that Tolkeen DID go Evil and DID embrace Demons and DID rift in literal armies of demons to fight humanity, proved the CS worst fears. They were 100% right about the people of tolkeen. They turned out to be, exactly what was feared.

[flatline]

Chi town itself would have rifts to lower dimensions opened within, and soon become uninhabitable (by humans).

This has been covered with the anti teleportaiton rings ect.

What is an "anti-teleportation ring" and where is it described?

--flatline

[Nightmask]

Chi town itself would have rifts to lower dimensions opened within, and soon become uninhabitable (by humans).

This has been covered with the anti teleportaiton rings ect.

What is an "anti-teleportation ring" and where is it described?

--flatline

It's a wallbanger idea from a Rifter that there's a magical circle that exists to protect the entire city from teleportation.

[Pepsi Jedi]

LEaders of Tolkeen Pepsi not the people as a whole... NOW because of the leaders they made the CS propaganda look right and made it hard for the other nations to look them in the eye with any form of respect, it made the leaders actions make the people of tolkeen look bad.

And thus, the Mirror. For it's the LEADERS of the CS that are evil, but not the average person.

Yes... someone gets it. Granted it was awhile before someone said it and let me point it out. But yes. You're 100% right.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Chi town itself would have rifts to lower dimensions opened within, and soon become uninhabitable (by humans).

This has been covered with the anti teleportaiton rings ect.

What is an "anti-teleportation ring" and where is it described?

--flatline

It's a wallbanger idea from a Rifter that there's a magical circle that exists to protect the entire city from teleportation.

It's a touch more complex than just that, but yeah. Thing is, I'm pretty sure he participated in the last thread where it was discussed.

[flatline]

Chi town itself would have rifts to lower dimensions opened within, and soon become uninhabitable (by humans).

This has been covered with the anti teleportaiton rings ect.

What is an "anti-teleportation ring" and where is it described?

--flatline

It's a wallbanger idea from a Rifter that there's a magical circle that exists to protect the entire city from teleportation.

It's a touch more complex than just that, but yeah. Thing is, I'm pretty sure he participated in the last thread where it was discussed.

I remember seeing it mentioned in a previous thread, but my impression was that it was non-canon.

--flatline

[Lenwen]

LEaders of Tolkeen Pepsi not the people as a whole... NOW because of the leaders they made the CS propaganda look right and made it hard for the other nations to look them in the eye with any form of respect, it made the leaders actions make the people of tolkeen look bad.

I agree. I said earlier,

Tolkeen's leaders became evil as the Coalition Leaders .. who were both as evil .. as the Demons Pepsi Jedi claims are the worst of the worst.

Ergo .. All the leaders were as evil as demons . (sept if you ask human's who are by choice evil are more evil then a race of beings who are naturally evil)

[Lenwen]

Not only did the CS start the fight, but in using nukes right off the bat they proved they are as evil as is possible to become

But no nukes landed. *Shrugs* No harm no foul right? lol
And the thing is, the CS used nukes because they thought that Tolkeen was a city of evil magic using Demon loving mages.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnndd........ *looks at Tolkeen* A city full of Evil Magic using Demon lovin' Mages....

When the CS launched the nukes .. Absolutely not .. Tolkeen was not a City of evil magic using Demon loving mages ..

So your wrong.

[Nightmask]

Not only did the CS start the fight, but in using nukes right off the bat they proved they are as evil as is possible to become

But no nukes landed. *Shrugs* No harm no foul right? lol
And the thing is, the CS used nukes because they thought that Tolkeen was a city of evil magic using Demon loving mages.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnndd........ *looks at Tolkeen* A city full of Evil Magic using Demon lovin' Mages....

When the CS launched the nukes .. Absolutely not .. Tolkeen was not a City of evil magic using Demon loving mages ..

So your wrong.

Yes, you really have to wonder how 'well we didn't manage to kill any of them with our weapons of mass destruction' translates into 'we aren't evil because no one actually died from our bombs'.

[Pepsi Jedi]

LEaders of Tolkeen Pepsi not the people as a whole... NOW because of the leaders they made the CS propaganda look right and made it hard for the other nations to look them in the eye with any form of respect, it made the leaders actions make the people of tolkeen look bad.

I agree. I said earlier,

Tolkeen's leaders became evil as the Coalition Leaders .. who were both as evil .. as the Demons Pepsi Jedi claims are the worst of the worst.

Ergo .. All the leaders were as evil as demons . (sept if you ask human's who are by choice evil are more evil then a race of beings who are naturally evil)

No not Ergo. You just think so.

The CS has never rifted in armies of demons to do it's fighting. That's something only Tolkeen has done.

[Lenwen]

There is an argument to be placed that the leaders of both side are nowhere near as evil as demons.

Alignment's beg to differ ..

[Lenwen]

There is an argument to be placed that the leaders of both side are nowhere near as evil as demons.

Alignment's beg to differ ..

Demons do not need or look for justification to their actions.

Demons have no choice .. but to be what they are ..

Humans .. "choose" .. to be evil ..

Which makes humans THAT .. much more evil to begin with ..

[Pepsi Jedi]

Not only did the CS start the fight, but in using nukes right off the bat they proved they are as evil as is possible to become

But no nukes landed. *Shrugs* No harm no foul right? lol
And the thing is, the CS used nukes because they thought that Tolkeen was a city of evil magic using Demon loving mages.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnndd........ *looks at Tolkeen* A city full of Evil Magic using Demon lovin' Mages....

When the CS launched the nukes .. Absolutely not .. Tolkeen was not a City of evil magic using Demon loving mages ..

So your wrong.

Actually they were. Tolkeen didn't find the demons after the war started. They'd been militarizing for years. Just like the TW stuff built for the demons weren't built after the war started. Tolkeen found the demons and were outfitting them for war, before the missiles flew. Your timing is off.

[Nightmask]

There is an argument to be placed that the leaders of both side are nowhere near as evil as demons.

Alignment's beg to differ ..

Demons do not need or look for justification to their actions.

Demons have no choice .. but to be what they are ..

Humans .. "choose" .. to be evil ..

Which makes humans THAT .. much more evil to begin with ..

Unfortunately that generates a lot of complex questions that can majorly muddy the waters. After all if for example you're a creature that requires the suffering of others to survive are you truly evil for causing others to suffer? You need it to survive after all, not like you chose to do it because you enjoyed it. If a demon can't choose not to torture is it evil? They're not much different than an organic AI at that point unable to change their programming. Unlike humans (such as those running the CS) who can decide to engage in good or evil acts.

[Lenwen]

There is an argument to be placed that the leaders of both side are nowhere near as evil as demons.

Alignment's beg to differ ..

Demons do not need or look for justification to their actions.

Demons have no choice .. but to be what they are ..

Humans .. "choose" .. to be evil ..

Which makes humans THAT .. much more evil to begin with ..

That is a false, no one wakes up a desire to be evil, AS I pointed out they see their actions as justified and the right choose to be made. Demons do not think about another choose (A VERY small amount do become good but most do not) they are evil in living form.

Evil knows evil .. No two ways about it ..

Emp Prosak = Diabolic .. not becuase he thinks its right .. to keep people pacified .. threw his evil ways .. to better the situation of mankind ..

Emp Prosak keeps the populace like that .. to better hold onto Power .. which is Evil ..

No two ways about it .. he knows what he is doing .. and chooses to do it .. Which in fact makes him more evil .. then any demon who has no choice .. at being evil..

[Lenwen]

hey see their actions as justified and the right choose to be made. Demons do not think about another choose (A VERY small amount do become good but most do not) they are evil in living form.

Evil knows evil .. No two ways about it ..

Emp Prosak = Diabolic .. not becuase he thinks its right .. to keep people pacified .. threw his evil ways .. to better the situation of mankind ..

Emp Prosak keeps the populace like that .. to better hold onto Power .. which is Evil ..

No two ways about it .. he knows what he is doing .. and chooses to do it .. Which in fact makes him more evil .. then any demon who has no choice .. at being evil..

I do remember reading some where that Karl thinks every action he has taken is for the better of humanity. (I can not recall where and do not have books on hand) I am sorry but trying to paint any human as evil or more evil then a demon or deevil is an asinine attempt , Demon are evil by both nature and choose (you can thank repetitive demons for that part). Karl may do everything for power which makes him a megalomaniac but he does think his actions are right for mankind and his empire.

And yet .. Your claim that no human is as evil as a demon .. when alignments clearly .. dictate otherwise ..

is as you say .. asinine ..

[Lenwen]

Also ..

As per hades / Dyval dimension books .. Demons have no choice in thier alignments , ergo .. they have no choice in being good .. what so ever ..

Ergo .. they have no choice .. as compared to Humans .. who have the "choice" as to wether or not be good or bad ..

Which makes an evil human .. TWICE .. as evil as a demon .. because of the choice to be so ..

[Nightmask]

So, a human and a demon each decide to blow up a city with a nasty bomb certain to cause untold agony both on those who will die as well as the survivors because they feel it's justified for the sake of human/demonkind. So which is more evil? Answer: they're both evil, being human or demon doesn't make the act more or less evil just because of who decides to do it. If you're going to insist one is more evil than the other then the human is more evil as humans are supposed to possess feelings of compassion, empathy, and concern and yet the human denies all of that to willingly do something that will cause incredible suffering and says 'well it's okay I thought it was a good idea'.

[Lenwen]

Also ..

As per hades / Dyval dimension books .. Demons have no choice in thier alignments , ergo .. they have no choice in being good .. what so ever ..

Ergo .. they have no choice .. as compared to Humans .. who have the "choice" as to wether or not be good or bad ..

Which makes an evil human .. TWICE .. as evil as a demon .. because of the choice to be so ..

China two and official sources in the rifter refute this, it is a false claim. You said it best if alignment is say all end all their is no variant in their degree of evil. Ergo one can not be more evil then the other.

Chinese demons .. can be good.

Go head an check out the Hades demons / Dyval Deevils ..

They have no choice ..

[flatline]

Just off the top of my head, Rakshasa don't have to be evil. They can be selfish.

This, according to CB1.

Don't they count as demons?

--flatline

[Hystrix]

Also ..

As per hades / Dyval dimension books .. Demons have no choice in thier alignments , ergo .. they have no choice in being good .. what so ever ..

Ergo .. they have no choice .. as compared to Humans .. who have the "choice" as to wether or not be good or bad ..

Which makes an evil human .. TWICE .. as evil as a demon .. because of the choice to be so ..

China two and official sources in the rifter refute this, it is a false claim. You said it best if alignment is say all end all their is no variant in their degree of evil. Ergo one can not be more evil then the other.

Chinese demons .. can be good.

Go head an check out the Hades demons / Dyval Deevils ..

They have no choice ..

Armeggedon Unlimited has an Heroic Hellion, or a Demon turned hero. That is for Hades and Dyval hordes. Ergo, they have a choice.

[Hystrix]

Also if we are going to use hades to prove humans more evil then demons we are going to be in for a long debate.
Baal-rogs fall between evil and selfish(I think anarchist), Gallu fall between evil and selfish,Jinn evil and selfish, Rakasasha evil and selfish, Succubus evil and selfish, same for the Shedim and I think a few others.

Agreed. Either way it seems Demons have a choice.

There is also the example in Heroes of the Megaverse, the Devil Saxman (or whatever his name is) is a Devilkin turned hero. No matter how you slice it, even demons (and Deevils) have choices.

[Lenwen]

Also if we are going to use hades to prove humans more evil then demons we are going to be in for a long debate.
Baal-rogs fall between evil and selfish(I think anarchist), Gallu fall between evil and selfish,Jinn evil and selfish, Rakasasha evil and selfish, Succubus evil and selfish, same for the Shedim and I think a few others.

Lets take a look shall we ?

Gargoylites - Can not be good ..
Gargoyles - Can not be good ..
Gurgoles - Can not be good ..
Garg Mage - Can not be good ..
Garg Lord - Can not be good ..
Demon Bat - Can not be good ..
Demon Fly - Can not be good ..
Taursis - Can not be good ..
Alu Demon Hound - Can not be good ..
Aquatic - (water based demon) - Can not be good ..
Banshee's - can not be good ..
Couril - Can not be good ..
Ghouls / Nasu - Can not be good ..
Labassu - Can not be good ..
Lasae - Can not be good ..
Mares / Nightmares - Can not be good ..
Shedium - Can not be good ..
Succubus / Incubus - Can not be good ..

(Greater Demons)
Brek-Shal - can not be good ..
Death Demons - Can not be good ..
Soul Catchers - can not be good ..
Baal-Rogs - can not be good ..
Demon Locust - Can not be good ..
Gallu, Demon Bull - can not be good ..
Jinn - Can not be good ..
Magot - Cant be good ..
Night Owl - Cant be good ..
Raksasha - Can't be good ..

Now for the Deevils ..

-- Not an actual demon ----> Deevil Host - Can't be good ..
-- Not an actual demon ---- > Stalkers - Can be good ..##
-- Not an acutal demon --- > Harpies - can't be good ..
-- Not an actual demon --- > Shock Dragons - can be good .. ##
(Now for the deevils)
Bonelings - Can't be good ..
deevils - Can't be good ..
devilkins - can't be good ..
dire harpies - cant be good ..
Fenry demon wolf - cant be good ..
Fiends - cant be good ..
Gorgon - this cant be good ..
Ice Wraiths - cant be good ..
Imps - Cant be good ..
Naga Deevil - Cant be good ..
Nexus Deevil - Cant be good ..
Demon Dragons - Cant be good ..
Arch Fiends - Cant be good ..
The Beast - cant be good ..
Horror - Cant be good ..
Pandemoniom - Cant be good ..
Serpants - Cant be good .
Wraith/Deevil Wraith - Cant be good ..

So out of the entire two dimensions .. only 2 races can have the option of being good. And no demon/deevil has the choice to be good . Not 1.

As I was saying they have no choice .. of being good ..

[flatline]

Lenwen,

You realize that there's a difference between "can't be Good" and "must be Evil", right?

Anarchist and Unprincipled aren't "Good", but they aren't "Evil" either.

--flatline

[Lenwen]

Also if we are going to use hades to prove humans more evil then demons we are going to be in for a long debate.
Baal-rogs fall between evil and selfish(I think anarchist), Gallu fall between evil and selfish,Jinn evil and selfish, Rakasasha evil and selfish, Succubus evil and selfish, same for the Shedim and I think a few others.

Lets take a look shall we ?

Gargoylites - Can not be good ..
Gargoyles - Can not be good ..
Gurgoles - Can not be good ..
Garg Mage - Can not be good ..
Garg Lord - Can not be good ..
Demon Bat - Can not be good ..
Demon Fly - Can not be good ..
Taursis - Can not be good ..
Alu Demon Hound - Can not be good ..
Aquatic - (water based demon) - Can not be good ..
Banshee's - can not be good ..
Couril - Can not be good ..
Ghouls / Nasu - Can not be good ..
Labassu - Can not be good ..
Lasae - Can not be good ..
Mares / Nightmares - Can not be good ..
Shedium - Can not be good ..
Succubus / Incubus - Can not be good ..

(Greater Demons)
Brek-Shal - can not be good ..
Death Demons - Can not be good ..
Soul Catchers - can not be good ..
Baal-Rogs - can not be good ..
Demon Locust - Can not be good ..
Gallu, Demon Bull - can not be good ..
Jinn - Can not be good ..
Magot - Cant be good ..
Night Owl - Cant be good ..
Raksasha - Can't be good ..

Now for the Deevils ..

-- Not an actual demon ----> Deevil Host - Can't be good ..
-- Not an actual demon ---- > Stalkers - Can be good ..##
-- Not an acutal demon --- > Harpies - can't be good ..
-- Not an actual demon --- > Shock Dragons - can be good .. ##
(Now for the deevils)
Bonelings - Can't be good ..
deevils - Can't be good ..
devilkins - can't be good ..
dire harpies - cant be good ..
Fenry demon wolf - cant be good ..
Fiends - cant be good ..
Gorgon - this cant be good ..
Ice Wraiths - cant be good ..
Imps - Cant be good ..
Naga Deevil - Cant be good ..
Nexus Deevil - Cant be good ..
Demon Dragons - Cant be good ..
Arch Fiends - Cant be good ..
The Beast - cant be good ..
Horror - Cant be good ..
Pandemoniom - Cant be good ..
Serpants - Cant be good .
Wraith/Deevil Wraith - Cant be good ..

So out of the entire two dimensions .. only 2 races can have the option of being good. And no demon/deevil has the choice to be good . Not 1.

As I was saying they have no choice .. of being good ..

And yet books(China 2, Armageddon Unlimited, Rifter 41 and your leaving out the fact selfish is not evil) prove you wrong not right, ironic don't you think. Repetitive demons, and demon heros. Sorry Lenwen but you can't have it two ways either demons and the leaders are just as evil given alignments or your stance that somehow a Demon is less evil then... a human..

Now let's review, you have been shown that your first argument is moot because demons are shown to have a choose they choose evil. Your second argument is also proven wrong because if alignment is say all end all then the two are equal evils no better no worst. So which argument is it?

I do not understand how you are not understanding what I am saying.

Demons have no choice to be good .. canonly speaking .. (Deevil music guy is the exception that proves the rule, not the other way around..)

Humans have the choice to be good .. Demons .. do not .. Period.

[Hystrix]

Also if we are going to use hades to prove humans more evil then demons we are going to be in for a long debate.
Baal-rogs fall between evil and selfish(I think anarchist), Gallu fall between evil and selfish,Jinn evil and selfish, Rakasasha evil and selfish, Succubus evil and selfish, same for the Shedim and I think a few others.

Lets take a look shall we ?

Gargoylites - Can not be good ..
Gargoyles - Can not be good ..
Gurgoles - Can not be good ..
Garg Mage - Can not be good ..
Garg Lord - Can not be good ..
Demon Bat - Can not be good ..
Demon Fly - Can not be good ..
Taursis - Can not be good ..
Alu Demon Hound - Can not be good ..
Aquatic - (water based demon) - Can not be good ..
Banshee's - can not be good ..
Couril - Can not be good ..
Ghouls / Nasu - Can not be good ..
Labassu - Can not be good ..
Lasae - Can not be good ..
Mares / Nightmares - Can not be good ..
Shedium - Can not be good ..
Succubus / Incubus - Can not be good ..

(Greater Demons)
Brek-Shal - can not be good ..
Death Demons - Can not be good ..
Soul Catchers - can not be good ..
Baal-Rogs - can not be good ..
Demon Locust - Can not be good ..
Gallu, Demon Bull - can not be good ..
Jinn - Can not be good ..
Magot - Cant be good ..
Night Owl - Cant be good ..
Raksasha - Can't be good ..

Now for the Deevils ..

-- Not an actual demon ----> Deevil Host - Can't be good ..
-- Not an actual demon ---- > Stalkers - Can be good ..##
-- Not an acutal demon --- > Harpies - can't be good ..
-- Not an actual demon --- > Shock Dragons - can be good .. ##
(Now for the deevils)
Bonelings - Can't be good ..
deevils - Can't be good ..
devilkins - can't be good ..
dire harpies - cant be good ..
Fenry demon wolf - cant be good ..
Fiends - cant be good ..
Gorgon - this cant be good ..
Ice Wraiths - cant be good ..
Imps - Cant be good ..
Naga Deevil - Cant be good ..
Nexus Deevil - Cant be good ..
Demon Dragons - Cant be good ..
Arch Fiends - Cant be good ..
The Beast - cant be good ..
Horror - Cant be good ..
Pandemoniom - Cant be good ..
Serpants - Cant be good .
Wraith/Deevil Wraith - Cant be good ..

So out of the entire two dimensions .. only 2 races can have the option of being good. And no demon/deevil has the choice to be good . Not 1.

As I was saying they have no choice .. of being good ..

And yet books(China 2, Armageddon Unlimited, Rifter 41 and your leaving out the fact selfish is not evil) prove you wrong not right, ironic don't you think. Repetitive demons, and demon heros. Sorry Lenwen but you can't have it two ways either demons and the leaders are just as evil given alignments or your stance that somehow a Demon is less evil then... a human..

Now let's review, you have been shown that your first argument is moot because demons are shown to have a choose they choose evil. Your second argument is also proven wrong because if alignment is say all end all then the two are equal evils no better no worst. So which argument is it?

I do not understand how you are not understanding what I am saying.

Demons have no choice to be good .. canonly speaking .. (Deevil music guy is the exception that proves the rule, not the other way around..)

Humans have the choice to be good .. Demons .. do not .. Period.

And Armeggedon Unlimited with the Heroic Hellion.

No, there are definate choices in the matter. Sorry, you're alone on this one.

[cornholioprime]

Not only did the CS start the fight, but in using nukes right off the bat they proved they are as evil as is possible to become

To be fair to the Coalition States -and I say this to all who are essentially saying the same thing -the launch of those nuclear missiles, at least the ones in the beginning salvo, were described as a rogue action, and the general who gave the order was executed.

Of course, this action on the part of the Coalition States makes utterly inexplicable their decision to go ahead and use Nukes later on, in the pages of SoT 6: Final Siege.....

[flatline]

"the exception that proves the rule"

I've heard this before, but it makes no sense. How does a counter-example prove the rule the that it counters?

That's like saying "not A, therefore A".

--flatline