Recycling/reclaiming spent silver bullets?

[Braden Campbell]

So, the cost of silver bullets in vampire-ridden Mexico has lept to an astounding $50 per (small calibre... even more for rifle and machinegun rounds). This has at least one of my Player Characters worried. After all, each ten round burst he fires is 500 credits gone.

So, we were wondering if silver bullets might not becollected up after the slaying is all done, melted down, and reformed into new bullets. Obviously, there would be diminishing returns - but there aren't really any Palladium game mechanics to cover this. I think it's a great idea, and want to support it, so I was wondering (maybe some of the board gunsmiths can help out here) just what the recovery rate might be. After they've already been fired, how many used silver bullets might it take to create a "recycled" bullet?

[Greyaxe]

Obviously it would depend what they hit. Silver is soft. If it hits armor it will shatter and be unrecoverable, but if it hits flesh the recovery rate would be good. I have also thought of Metal Detectors to search for the silver after a battle. I figure the recovery rate could be 75%.

[Akashic Soldier]

So a silver bullet is 5 creds more than a single shot from an M.D. weapon (standard E-Clip). Think about it.

[Mack]

I'd go with a simple 1D6x10 % recovery rate (so 10% to 60%). Maybe give a bonus depending on how long the team spends looking (5% per hour??).

Considering how far bullets can travel, and how they are likely to fragment when hitting anything hard, that's pretty reasonable.

[Akashic Soldier]

Question: Does he have the salvage or recycle skill?

[Greyaxe]

Question: Does he have the salvage or recycle skill?

yes the techno wizard does

[glitterboy2098]

does the book specify whether these bullets are silver cast or silver plated? IE, are you replacing the entire bullet with silver, or just coating the outside?

[Greyaxe]

does the book specify whether these bullets are silver cast or silver plated? IE, are you replacing the entire bullet with silver, or just coating the outside?

The entire bullet is silver

[Akashic Soldier]

does the book specify whether these bullets are silver cast or silver plated? IE, are you replacing the entire bullet with silver, or just coating the outside?

Very good question. I do not know but Greyaxe seems to think so and I trust the integrity of his statement.

As for the e-clip thing:

Standard E-Clip costs you 5,000cr and then about 200-300cr to recharge it. So in the long run the E-Clip does work out to be cheaper but initially its more expensive than silver rounds. Ironically enough most E-clip based weapons won't even hurt the undead or lycanthropes anyway so it is redundant for this specific conversation.

I just wanted to point out that Mega-Damage weapons and combat is not "generally" cheap. Just to give people something to think about the next time they are popping their E-Clips and dropping them on the ground just because they start with 1D4 of them per weapon at character creation.

[Braden Campbell]

The Site: http://www.patriciabriggs.com/books/sil ... let6.shtml

Damned good link.

It seems that silver-filled hollowpoints might be the best way to go, rather than making an entire bullet out of silver.

[glitterboy2098]

The Site: http://www.patriciabriggs.com/books/sil ... let6.shtml

Damned good link.

It seems that silver-filled hollowpoints might be the best way to go, rather than making an entire bullet out of silver.

i got to listen to a panel on silver bullets at Visioncon 2011 by the people who made that website. very knowledgeable. then afterwards i got to talk to Kevin Seimbieda, and that afternoon got to play a nightbane game. a fun day.

the problem i see with filled hollow points is that the amount of silver would be miniscule.

IMO, if you bring hollow points into play, you should use cast silver hollowpoints, for the extra flesh truama on impact.

if your using solid rounds, just silver plate lead or copper jacketed lead bullets. it would be cheaper and you'd get similar peformance.

[Greyaxe]

There is another problem. The Silver hollow points wound not be recoverable silver. So you could use more bullets with the same amount of silver but the silver would go. While an entire silver hollow point would likely stay in the target making it more recoverable.

[Akashic Soldier]

I think that people should theorize all of this thing, develop superior bullets for fighting lycanthropes and then find out (in a horrifying mess) that they do not work and that the creatures can shake them off. Thus forcing people to use traditional silver bullets after all.

[Kordwar]

A bit off topic, but a friend of mine and I were discussing silver plating railgun rounds. The big debate seems to be if silver plating is even effective.

We just ran into a murder wraith, and no one in our group is a caster. We've been spitballing everuthing from silver plated nail filled pipebombs to the already mentioned railgun rounds.

[Colt47]

I've heard of recycling bullet casings for repacking. Bullets not so much.

[Akashic Soldier]

I've heard of recycling bullet casings for repacking. Bullets not so much.

My limited understanding is that modern bullets are designed to shatter inside the body.

[Nightmask]

While the spell doesn't list silver as a metal it affects it Create Steel really should work just as well recycling silver as it does nickel, aluminum, or copper (copper's in the same category as silver in the periodic table). Although I admittedly don't go for that nonsense of 'No! It's a precious metal that makes it special and magic just knows better than to recycle it!' for why a spell that recycles metal determines things based on human attitudes of value (and many societies don't view what's valuable in the same way and find gold worthless). If necessary just make up a variant of the spell to recycle silver (since after the firefight the silver used is obviously scrap metal at that point) and use it to reclaim the silver after every fight.

[Nightmask]

I've heard of recycling bullet casings for repacking. Bullets not so much.

Because the casings are precision machined items the average person can't produce unlike bullets, where the cost of the metal for a normal round is fairly cheap and not worth the trouble recovering your shot from an area when you can just buy the base metal and pour your own bullets (several of the males on my great-aunt's side had a thing for salvaging the casings and repacking their own bullets when I was a kid and might still do it).

[Braden Campbell]

Also, after you burn a vampire's body, the bullets you riddled it with could be recoved from the ashes.

[Killer Cyborg]

Also, after you burn a vampire's body, the bullets you riddled it with could be recoved from the ashes.

Depends on how hot the fire is.

[Faceless Dude]

Silver Glaser is the answer.

Take a normal hollow point bullet, fill the cavity with Silverpellets the size on #12 birdshot. The cover with a silver foil cap. It'll completely sacrifice penetration for stopping power, and in a low velocity round like a .45 should actually allow a called shot to the heart to not over penetrate and exit the vampire

Frightfully expensive, but for the manufacturing, not necessarily the silver content. 100% non recoverable, but a great one shot stop to.

[Greyaxe]

Also, after you burn a vampire's body, the bullets you riddled it with could be recoved from the ashes.

Depends on how hot the fire is.

Even if the silver melts i can still use a metal detector to collect it, or are you talking about an MDC fire that would vaporize the silver?

[Nightmask]

Also, after you burn a vampire's body, the bullets you riddled it with could be recoved from the ashes.

Really from an ealier point-

Would it be proper to assume that you would get more bullets, if they were hollow, out of the same amount of silver, than if they were just regular bullets?

As far as gathering and the cost-

Have you thought about creating a wealthy business owner NPC (one who has a passion for the extermination of the undead, but physically unable), that maybe pays for the cost of these bullets outright, (a donation to the cause etc.) so the player characters or group aren't so focused on the "bullet cost" aspect?

That is of coarse unless you want them to be.

Or how about (if the players are good) they find a fellow vampire slayer, as he/she is on the edge of death. He offers to tell them where he has hiden his stash (size up to you) of silver bars, as long as they vow to use the bars in the pursuit of riding the world of vampires-etc?

Yes? No?

Well there should be a minimum amount of silver necessary to actually harm something vulnerable to silver, otherwise trace amounts of silver around the Comstock Load would make it the perfect place to hide away from vampires as the environment's lousy with silver. About the only time I've seen such trace amounts of silver prove any value against a supernatural thing is in the Wereworld webcomic (were-creatures would literally explode in a shower of gore just from a trace exposure to silver, getting blown up with a rocket grenade was considered a merciful death in comparison).

[Killer Cyborg]

Also, after you burn a vampire's body, the bullets you riddled it with could be recoved from the ashes.

Depends on how hot the fire is.

Even if the silver melts i can still use a metal detector to collect it, or are you talking about an MDC fire that would vaporize the silver?

I don't know if the fire would have to be MD or not, but at some point, it can vaporize.
How much heat is needed would depend on the mass of the silver, I believe.

[Greyaxe]

Also, after you burn a vampire's body, the bullets you riddled it with could be recoved from the ashes.

Depends on how hot the fire is.

Even if the silver melts i can still use a metal detector to collect it, or are you talking about an MDC fire that would vaporize the silver?

I don't know if the fire would have to be MD or not, but at some point, it can vaporize.
How much heat is needed would depend on the mass of the silver, I believe.

Ok. So after a quick Google Silver melts at 962° C (1,764° F). Wood burns at 600oC 1110oF. so i would be safe using wood to burn a vampire. We have also used flame throwers to ignite the vamps. Kerosene burns at 260-315 °C (500-599 °F) and gasoline burns at around 900C (about 1650F) so its a little dangerous to use gas to burn vampires if i don't want the bullets to melt. Silver boils at 2,210 degrees Celsius so using conventional methods i should be able to retrieve any silver trapped in the Vampires
According to the new Vampire Kingdoms 50% of the small arms (light caliber) bullets stay in the vampire. So if i get that much from burning the vampire and say an additional 10-20% of the bullets that did pass through the vamps Macs 60% figure sounds pretty reasonable.

[flatline]

Also, after you burn a vampire's body, the bullets you riddled it with could be recoved from the ashes.

Depends on how hot the fire is.

Even if the silver melts i can still use a metal detector to collect it, or are you talking about an MDC fire that would vaporize the silver?

I don't know if the fire would have to be MD or not, but at some point, it can vaporize.
How much heat is needed would depend on the mass of the silver, I believe.

The boiling point of silver is almost 4000 degrees F. You will not lose significant amounts of silver to evaporation until everything in your fire with a lower boiling point has been vaporized. Even then, you won't lose silver very quickly since the heat of vaporization for silver is around 250 kilojoules per mole (more than 6 times that of water).

So have no fear, you'll have plenty of time once the vampire is consumed by flame to stop the fire and claim any silver present.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Also, after you burn a vampire's body, the bullets you riddled it with could be recoved from the ashes.

Depends on how hot the fire is.

Even if the silver melts i can still use a metal detector to collect it, or are you talking about an MDC fire that would vaporize the silver?

I don't know if the fire would have to be MD or not, but at some point, it can vaporize.
How much heat is needed would depend on the mass of the silver, I believe.

The boiling point of silver is almost 4000 degrees F. You will not lose significant amounts of silver to evaporation until everything in your fire with a lower boiling point has been vaporized. Even then, you won't lose silver very quickly since the heat of vaporization for silver is around 250 kilojoules per mole (more than 6 times that of water).

So have no fear, you'll have plenty of time once the vampire is consumed by flame to stop the fire and claim any silver present.

--flatline

Alrighty.

[Braden Campbell]

Have you thought about creating a wealthy business owner NPC (one who has a passion for the extermination of the undead, but physically unable), that maybe pays for the cost of these bullets outright, (a donation to the cause etc.) so the player characters or group aren't so focused on the "bullet cost" aspect?

That is of coarse unless you want them to be.

Heh.

I LIKE the "bullet cost" aspect. Having to scrounge for stuff reminds me of a time, long ago, when Rifts was more post-apocalyptic than it is now.

[Pepsi Jedi]

This seems very silly to me. How are you going to FIND the bullet to even recover it to try and reuse it? It's not like silver is magnetic. Even so if you're in actual combat it's nto like the range. You shoot but you don't know 100% where that bullet ends up.

Yeah you may be able to get a hand full out of a dead vamp. Maybe. That's if every shot you put down range hits the vamp and doesn't punch a neat little hole and keep going.

Even then you gotta think about what you're saying. You're gonna get into combat with a vampire (( or more than one. They seldom meander round alone in Rifts)) And you're going to use silver bullets and put shots down range. SURVIVE the combat.. and then go meandering around the area looking for where your bullets hit, and seeing if they didn't fragment and just be destroyed or something, picking up silver shards and remains of slugs for god knows how many hours? Inspite of CSI and L&O. Bullets don't just show up shiny and hole stuck in a bit of soft wood that you can pluck out with a pair of tweezers. Silver is a 'soft' metal too. If it hits anything other than flesh it's going to fragment and those iiiiiiiiity bitty fragments are what you're going to be looking for.

Yeah... it's expensive.. you're firing a precious metal. And there's no huge silver mining companies out there, but as pointed out it's roughly the same cost per shot as energy weapons. (( which are very expensive)) the only time you're gonna use the silver is 1) if you're fighting for your life with vampires. or 2) If you're fighting for your life with werebeasts. Either of which you're gonna use the bullets and not count the cost.

I think they're made that expensive on purpose to equate roughly with the energy weapons. *shrugs* I really don't see people looking over their battle sites for hours or days to find ittty bitty shards of silver to collect up in a baggie to take back to town to remelt and make into bullets.

But that's me. Opinions can differ.

I do NOT think you'd have something like a 60% of recovery. I'd say at most. ---most--- you might recover 5%. And that's being enormously generous.

[TechnoGothic]

someone needs a Create Silver Spell

Better yet if you find a Mystic Smith, have them turn your pure silver or silver plated bullets into Invulnerable bullets. They would never deform. Just pop them into new jackets and your ready...

[Pepsi Jedi]

One would think if you had the money to buy such things, and the ability to find them once fired, re-gather them (( bullets themselves are actually quite small)) and reload them, that one could just pay for 'normal' silver bullets.

[Akashic Soldier]

someone needs a Create Silver Spell

Better yet if you find a Mystic Smith, have them turn your pure silver or silver plated bullets into Invulnerable bullets. They would never deform. Just pop them into new jackets and your ready...

Create Steel should have an alternate version that can create silver the same way it creates steel. Such is the nature of magic. Such is the promise of power. The Ley Lines must flow. Alt Vahka Jhava Estros.

[Pepsi Jedi]

someone needs a Create Silver Spell

Better yet if you find a Mystic Smith, have them turn your pure silver or silver plated bullets into Invulnerable bullets. They would never deform. Just pop them into new jackets and your ready...

Create Steel should have an alternate version that can create silver the same way it creates steel. Such is the nature of magic. Such is the promise of power. The Ley Lines must flow. Alt Vahka Jhava Estros.

You're forgetting that silver is a precious metal. And also highly useful AGAINST supernaturals.

I.E. as soon as you do this, some idiot is going to get this spell at first level and just sit on a layline making silver all day then rolling into town with a truck load. Sell it, then go back out to the layline and do it again... and again.. and again.. till his group are all out fitted with robot vehicles with 20 glitter boys bolted to the out side, all shooting at the same time or some other reflicted thing.

But yeah, if it's a simple ppe expenditure to create precious metals, idiots ----------------------WILL------------------------ abuse it. And not even 'eventually'. Just watching this forum you see people proposing things that would take one mage 60,000 PPE as if it's no thing. You give people a spell that 'Creates silver" and they're going to make millions in silver in a day or two. Or go "If I can create silver, then I can Create gold" and just do it that way.

Sure you can limit the amount of people that can buy silver but the types that WILL abuse it will ignore that, or just have them make so much silver that they sell it and buy teleport spells. Why? To teleport to new markets with all their free silver!! No doubt they will be Temporal wizards, making little dimensional pockets just full of the unlimited silver they can make.

Oh? Actually adventuring, about to hit town? need 10,000 to repair your buddy's power armor.. give me a moment.... ah, here you go, a brick of silver the size o a loaf of bread. Keep the change. Need more... wait a second.... Ahh.. here ya go. Another brick. Don't spend it all in one place....

There in, lies the problem.

[Akashic Soldier]

someone needs a Create Silver Spell

Better yet if you find a Mystic Smith, have them turn your pure silver or silver plated bullets into Invulnerable bullets. They would never deform. Just pop them into new jackets and your ready...

Create Steel should have an alternate version that can create silver the same way it creates steel. Such is the nature of magic. Such is the promise of power. The Ley Lines must flow. Alt Vahka Jhava Estros.

You're forgetting that silver is a precious metal. And also highly useful AGAINST supernaturals.

I.E. as soon as you do this, some idiot is going to get this spell at first level and just sit on a layline making silver all day then rolling into town with a truck load. Sell it, then go back out to the layline and do it again... and again.. and again.. till his group are all out fitted with robot vehicles with 20 glitter boys bolted to the out side, all shooting at the same time or some other reflicted thing.

But yeah, if it's a simple ppe expenditure to create precious metals, idiots ----------------------WILL------------------------ abuse it. And not even 'eventually'. Just watching this forum you see people proposing things that would take one mage 60,000 PPE as if it's no thing. You give people a spell that 'Creates silver" and they're going to make millions in silver in a day or two. Or go "If I can create silver, then I can Create gold" and just do it that way.

Sure you can limit the amount of people that can buy silver but the types that WILL abuse it will ignore that, or just have them make so much silver that they sell it and buy teleport spells. Why? To teleport to new markets with all their free silver!! No doubt they will be Temporal wizards, making little dimensional pockets just full of the unlimited silver they can make.

Oh? Actually adventuring, about to hit town? need 10,000 to repair your buddy's power armor.. give me a moment.... ah, here you go, a brick of silver the size o a loaf of bread. Keep the change. Need more... wait a second.... Ahh.. here ya go. Another brick. Don't spend it all in one place....

There in, lies the problem.

As I understand it only Warlocks and Conjurers can cast it as it is not a standard invocation and neither of them can just pick up and learn new spells. Also, it would only allow you to recover damaged silver (as per the spell description). So where as you could gradually do it, it'd still take up one of your PRECIOUS spell selections (you only get three per level; less as a conjuror) and I think that its a fair call if that is what the character does. There are other factors like... you know... supply and demand... and we both know what happens if all of a sudden someone shows up with massive amounts of a precious metal with no explanation. It attracts attention. And therein is the adventure.

I guess my point is, in a dessert dimension where water is currency Create Water still works. Ya know?

[Pepsi Jedi]

someone needs a Create Silver Spell

Better yet if you find a Mystic Smith, have them turn your pure silver or silver plated bullets into Invulnerable bullets. They would never deform. Just pop them into new jackets and your ready...

Create Steel should have an alternate version that can create silver the same way it creates steel. Such is the nature of magic. Such is the promise of power. The Ley Lines must flow. Alt Vahka Jhava Estros.

You're forgetting that silver is a precious metal. And also highly useful AGAINST supernaturals.

I.E. as soon as you do this, some idiot is going to get this spell at first level and just sit on a layline making silver all day then rolling into town with a truck load. Sell it, then go back out to the layline and do it again... and again.. and again.. till his group are all out fitted with robot vehicles with 20 glitter boys bolted to the out side, all shooting at the same time or some other reflicted thing.

But yeah, if it's a simple ppe expenditure to create precious metals, idiots ----------------------WILL------------------------ abuse it. And not even 'eventually'. Just watching this forum you see people proposing things that would take one mage 60,000 PPE as if it's no thing. You give people a spell that 'Creates silver" and they're going to make millions in silver in a day or two. Or go "If I can create silver, then I can Create gold" and just do it that way.

Sure you can limit the amount of people that can buy silver but the types that WILL abuse it will ignore that, or just have them make so much silver that they sell it and buy teleport spells. Why? To teleport to new markets with all their free silver!! No doubt they will be Temporal wizards, making little dimensional pockets just full of the unlimited silver they can make.

Oh? Actually adventuring, about to hit town? need 10,000 to repair your buddy's power armor.. give me a moment.... ah, here you go, a brick of silver the size o a loaf of bread. Keep the change. Need more... wait a second.... Ahh.. here ya go. Another brick. Don't spend it all in one place....

There in, lies the problem.

As I understand it only Warlocks and Conjurers can cast it as it is not a standard invocation and neither of them can just pick up and learn new spells. Also, it would only allow you to recover damaged silver (as per the spell description). So where as you could gradually do it, it'd still take up one of your PRECIOUS spell selections (you only get three per level; less as a conjuror) and I think that its a fair call if that is what the character does. There are other factors like... you know... supply and demand... and we both know what happens if all of a sudden someone shows up with massive amounts of a precious metal with no explanation. It attracts attention. And therein is the adventure.

I guess my point is, in a dessert dimension where water is currency Create Water still works. Ya know?

I'm not talkin' about normal players that play by the rules man. I'm talkin' about people that would purposefuly pervert the rules and allow it. If you can be a multimillionair from one spell... you'll spend one of your precious 3 per level to make sure you get that one. FAST.

And as pointed out above. I know about supply and demand. After you tap out and make millions in one area you can invest in either magic to get you around (( Teleport or flight spells)) Or mundane vehicles to travel said distances to get around. You know... come on man you KNOW... if there's a 'Create precious metals' spell, it's going to be abused.

Your point about the Dune Dimension is fine, but we're not playing there. (( at least most of us)) and if we were, create water might not work there. Just as likely there's probably a dimension out there where the entire planet is one ball of supernatural smiting silver, with silver ground and silver trees and silver bugs and silver people.... but it's not here.

We're talkin' about Rifts earth, and on rifts earth if you give someone a spell that is basicly "PPE to Credits" they're gonna take it and it's going to be abused like CRAZY.

[Akashic Soldier]

If you can be a multimillionair from one spell...

Man,. check out the prices of spells. All a PoM needs to do is travel from city to city selling his highest level spell (something frowned upon BUT...) and he can make stupid amounts of money really fast without needing to do half as much work. Being a PoM is a VERY lucrative business. You generally don't need to spend as much on ammunition and armor repair and the knowledge you possess is worth tens of thousands -- potentially millions of credits.

I guess my point is as a GM I would allow it. I think its its counter productive to disallow something because someone could exploit it. I mean... you can exploit anything REALLY. Its up to the GM to make sure **** does not get out of control.

Hell... someone could say "Hey AK, I want to join Between Disaster & Atrocity, here is my character he is a Demi-God Fallen-Cosmo Knight with levels of Shifter! Sure it might be rules legal but I'd be a ******* moron to actually allow it in the game as it now exists. Hell, I have a Tailor Ley Line Walker NPC who uses his magic to work as a laundry mat (Cleanse) on the side... should he not be able to do that because he should have to pay for a washing machine instead of just using a spell?

Its the same principle. The problem is the players and munchkins and not the ability to wave your hand over the smoldering corpse of a Vampire, close you hand and then reopen it and have your bullets back.

[flatline]

There are already spells that let you print money directly (talisman, scroll, fire globe) and indirectly (too many to mention, but compulsion and dimensional portal are at the top of th list).

What's one more?

It's not like the setting respects economic laws anyways...

--flatline

[Akashic Soldier]

There are already spells that let you print money directly (talisman, scroll, fire globe) and indirectly (too many to mention, but compulsion and dimensional portal are at the top of th list).

What's one more?

It's not like the setting respects economic laws anyways...

--flatline

A conjurer can "theoretically" create a 10,000,000cr diamond at first level. I have "house ruled" that such currency is clearly the product of magic otherwise why would they have the Fool's Gold spell but that is a house rule. As its written they can literally just snap their fingers and destroy the economy. At least for a few hours.

[Nightmask]

There are already spells that let you print money directly (talisman, scroll, fire globe) and indirectly (too many to mention, but compulsion and dimensional portal are at the top of th list).

What's one more?

It's not like the setting respects economic laws anyways...

--flatline

It's not like economic laws should have any say in whether or not a spell exists anyway. Heck if anything it should be a reason why one would exist. The main drive of RL alchemists was turning other metals into gold, yet for some reason actual mages in a game where they can summon anti-matter from other dimensions decide 'oh no we shouldn't research a spell to create silver, that would hurt the economy'. Balderdash. Silver is far too useful against many supernatural threats to not develop a spell to create it (and if an earth Warlock can summon up 20lbs/level of various compounds like clay or dirt a LLW/Sorcerer should have a spell to create at least a lb/level of silver if not more).

[Greyaxe]

There are already spells that let you print money directly (talisman, scroll, fire globe) and indirectly (too many to mention, but compulsion and dimensional portal are at the top of th list).

What's one more?

It's not like the setting respects economic laws anyways...

--flatline

A conjurer can "theoretically" create a 10,000,000cr diamond at first level. I have "house ruled" that such currency is clearly the product of magic otherwise why would they have the Fool's Gold spell but that is a house rule. As its written they can literally just snap their fingers and destroy the economy. At least for a few hours.

Anything Conjured will have a psychic residue or signature as well. Dog Boys Psi Stalkers and other supernatural beings would sense it I think.

[flatline]

There are already spells that let you print money directly (talisman, scroll, fire globe) and indirectly (too many to mention, but compulsion and dimensional portal are at the top of th list).

What's one more?

It's not like the setting respects economic laws anyways...

--flatline

A conjurer can "theoretically" create a 10,000,000cr diamond at first level. I have "house ruled" that such currency is clearly the product of magic otherwise why would they have the Fool's Gold spell but that is a house rule. As its written they can literally just snap their fingers and destroy the economy. At least for a few hours.

The Fool's Gold spell is completely useless since anyone who would be accepting gold as payment can tell it's not real gold by inspection. Never understood why they made the spell in the first place since it's clearly meant to be used for fraud, but then they nerfed it so that people can't be defrauded by it unless they're not paying attention.

--flatline

[Akashic Soldier]

The Fool's Gold spell is completely useless since anyone who would be accepting gold as payment can tell it's not real gold by inspection. Never understood why they made the spell in the first place since it's clearly meant to be used for fraud, but then they nerfed it so that people can't be defrauded by it unless they're not paying attention.

--flatline

Scene #1

The Mage opens a treasure chest full of gold, reaches into it to grab a hand full of coins (which were placed on top and real) and lets them trickle down into the merchants hand. Then when they're impressed but before they can think about it as they're observing the sparkle of the gold and caught up in their greed the Practitioner of Magic smirks, snaps his fingers and two of his companions bring in two more chests and then throw them open for a moment showing they are also full to the brim and then slam them shut. Now the greedy merchant is graining his hands and licking his lips and the mage says...

"Well gentlemen, lets talk business..."

And after the transaction is complete he calmly leaves the store with his companions and LEGS IT!

Scene #2:

The Mage (Bard/Performer) picks up a hand full of acorns and then rolls them in his hand creating a shimmering golden ring, which he looks through to better illustrate the magic and wonder of the story he is telling, wowing his audience.

Scene #3

The Mage walks into a town of bumpkin farmers and in exchange for their hospitality performs a ritual that transforms the fruit in their fields into SOLID GOLD! The town becomes consumed with greed turning on one another and then the next morning they all turn back into regular pumpkins and the community realize they have been fools and have let something as petty as wealth come between them but the Mage is long gone... and they are all better people for it.

Those are just a few things off the top of my head.

[flatline]

The Fool's Gold spell is completely useless since anyone who would be accepting gold as payment can tell it's not real gold by inspection. Never understood why they made the spell in the first place since it's clearly meant to be used for fraud, but then they nerfed it so that people can't be defrauded by it unless they're not paying attention.

--flatline

Scene #1

The Mage opens a treasure chest full of gold, reaches into it to grab a hand full of coins (which were placed on top and real) and lets them trickle down into the merchants hand. Then when they're impressed but before they can think about it as they're observing the sparkle of the gold and caught up in their greed the Practitioner of Magic smirks, snaps his fingers and two of his companions bring in two more chests and then throw them open for a moment showing they are also full to the brim and then slam them shut. Now the greedy merchant is graining his hands and licking his lips and the mage says...

"Well gentlemen, lets talk business..."

And after the transaction is complete he calmly leaves the store with his companions and LEGS IT!

Merchant: "Of course you understand that for a transaction this large, we'll require you to stay here for *insert number of minutes more than twice the 15th level duration of Fool's Gold* while we verify your payment"

Mage: "......"

Scene #2:

The Mage (Bard/Performer) picks up a hand full of acorns and then rolls them in his hand creating a shimmering golden ring, which he looks through to better illustrate the magic and wonder of the story he is telling, wowing his audience.

"Excuse me while I pause my story telling to cast this spell that I'll use for illustrative purposes. Unfortunately, the way magic works, I can't just cast the spell under my breath, but must instead clearly say the words loudly with careful pronunciation, thus detracting from the performance of my own narrative".

Scene #3

The Mage walks into a town of bumpkin farmers and in exchange for their hospitality performs a ritual that transforms the fruit in their fields into SOLID GOLD! The town becomes consumed with greed turning on one another and then the next morning they all turn back into regular pumpkins and the community realize they have been fools and have let something as petty as wealth come between them but the Mage is long gone... and they are all better people for it.

Those are just a few things off the top of my head.

Jud goes and picks a golden apple from a tree and bites it. "Hey, this ain't really gold!"

Personally, I'd love for #2 to work, but aren't you the one who requires spells to be spoken out loud even for the most trivial spell?

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

The Fool's Gold spell is completely useless since anyone who would be accepting gold as payment can tell it's not real gold by inspection. Never understood why they made the spell in the first place since it's clearly meant to be used for fraud, but then they nerfed it so that people can't be defrauded by it unless they're not paying attention.

--flatline

Scene #1

The Mage opens a treasure chest full of gold, reaches into it to grab a hand full of coins (which were placed on top and real) and lets them trickle down into the merchants hand. Then when they're impressed but before they can think about it as they're observing the sparkle of the gold and caught up in their greed the Practitioner of Magic smirks, snaps his fingers and two of his companions bring in two more chests and then throw them open for a moment showing they are also full to the brim and then slam them shut. Now the greedy merchant is graining his hands and licking his lips and the mage says...

"Well gentlemen, lets talk business..."

And after the transaction is complete he calmly leaves the store with his companions and LEGS IT!

Merchant: "Of course you understand that for a transaction this large, we'll require you to stay here for *insert number of minutes more than twice the 15th level duration of Fool's Gold* while we verify your payment"

Mage: "......"

Darn those merchants and their meta-gaming.
(Unless you're assuming that for some reason the mage tries this trick in a community that has a strong familiarity with magic.)

Scene #2:
The Mage (Bard/Performer) picks up a hand full of acorns and then rolls them in his hand creating a shimmering golden ring, which he looks through to better illustrate the magic and wonder of the story he is telling, wowing his audience.

"Excuse me while I pause my story telling to cast this spell that I'll use for illustrative purposes. Unfortunately, the way magic works, I can't just cast the spell under my breath, but must instead clearly say the words loudly with careful pronunciation, thus detracting from the performance of my own narrative".

Okay, you nailed that one.
(though I suppose the mage could be using a Talisman or other magic device...)

Scene #3

The Mage walks into a town of bumpkin farmers and in exchange for their hospitality performs a ritual that transforms the fruit in their fields into SOLID GOLD! The town becomes consumed with greed turning on one another and then the next morning they all turn back into regular pumpkins and the community realize they have been fools and have let something as petty as wealth come between them but the Mage is long gone... and they are all better people for it.

Those are just a few things off the top of my head.

Jud goes and picks a golden apple from a tree and bites it. "Hey, this ain't really gold!"

I guess Jud is the resident gold expert?

I think the bigger problem in this case would be the "Saving Throw: Standard" part of the spell, because in a crowd of people, SOME of them are going to make their save.

[Akashic Soldier]

The Fool's Gold spell is completely useless since anyone who would be accepting gold as payment can tell it's not real gold by inspection. Never understood why they made the spell in the first place since it's clearly meant to be used for fraud, but then they nerfed it so that people can't be defrauded by it unless they're not paying attention.

--flatline

Scene #1

The Mage opens a treasure chest full of gold, reaches into it to grab a hand full of coins (which were placed on top and real) and lets them trickle down into the merchants hand. Then when they're impressed but before they can think about it as they're observing the sparkle of the gold and caught up in their greed the Practitioner of Magic smirks, snaps his fingers and two of his companions bring in two more chests and then throw them open for a moment showing they are also full to the brim and then slam them shut. Now the greedy merchant is graining his hands and licking his lips and the mage says...

"Well gentlemen, lets talk business..."

And after the transaction is complete he calmly leaves the store with his companions and LEGS IT!

Merchant: "Of course you understand that for a transaction this large, we'll require you to stay here for *insert number of minutes more than twice the 15th level duration of Fool's Gold* while we verify your payment"

Mage: "......"

Darn those merchants and their meta-gaming.
(Unless you're assuming that for some reason the mage tries this trick in a community that has a strong familiarity with magic.)

Scene #2:
The Mage (Bard/Performer) picks up a hand full of acorns and then rolls them in his hand creating a shimmering golden ring, which he looks through to better illustrate the magic and wonder of the story he is telling, wowing his audience.

"Excuse me while I pause my story telling to cast this spell that I'll use for illustrative purposes. Unfortunately, the way magic works, I can't just cast the spell under my breath, but must instead clearly say the words loudly with careful pronunciation, thus detracting from the performance of my own narrative".

Okay, you nailed that one.
(though I suppose the mage could be using a Talisman or other magic device...)

Scene #3

The Mage walks into a town of bumpkin farmers and in exchange for their hospitality performs a ritual that transforms the fruit in their fields into SOLID GOLD! The town becomes consumed with greed turning on one another and then the next morning they all turn back into regular pumpkins and the community realize they have been fools and have let something as petty as wealth come between them but the Mage is long gone... and they are all better people for it.

Those are just a few things off the top of my head.

Jud goes and picks a golden apple from a tree and bites it. "Hey, this ain't really gold!"

I guess Jud is the resident gold expert?

I think the bigger problem in this case would be the "Saving Throw: Standard" part of the spell, because in a crowd of people, SOME of them are going to make their save.

Personally I don't think speaking spell words with dramatic flare ruins a story. At least not if you are a good performer and intentionally weave that into your story.

In Scene 1, the mage acts insulted and goes to walk away... and the merchants greed betrays him and he gets what he wants... or it doesn't and the mage walks away. Is it flawless? No, could it work and is it cool? Yes.

As for scene #3, if the guy doesn't have LORE: MAGIC and if he does not make a successful roll AND if he does not have the APPRAISE SKILL then he bites that apple and says it tastes delicious and they start making gold apple pie. Again, is it perfect or flawless? No, nothing is in Palladium that is the beauty of it but they are still three examples in which the spell sees use and can benefit the caster. After all... even if bumpkin knows you can't eat Gold but he can eat his golden apple why wouldnt he just think... its been transformed into a magical golden apple? Horah!!

As KC implied, you're thinking to meta.

I could easy post another three examples to pick apart if you like?

[Nightmask]

someone needs a Create Silver Spell

Better yet if you find a Mystic Smith, have them turn your pure silver or silver plated bullets into Invulnerable bullets. They would never deform. Just pop them into new jackets and your ready...

I think a Rifter contained a spell that created a spray of silver shards (I think it was a Nightbane spell), but I don't think the spell ever specified whether or not the silver disappeared after doing its work. So someone at least had a spell that created silver specifically for dealing with supernatural creatures.

[Akashic Soldier]

What about a spell that transformed a hand full of bullets (3D4) into silver rounds for 1 minute per level of the caster.

[Killer Cyborg]

I.E. as soon as you do this, some idiot is going to get this spell at first level and just sit on a layline making silver all day then rolling into town with a truck load. Sell it, then go back out to the layline and do it again... and again.. and again.. till his group are all out fitted with robot vehicles with 20 glitter boys bolted to the out side, all shooting at the same time or some other reflicted thing.

Hm.
I'd see it more as:
Some idiot is going to get this spell at first level, and just sit on a leyline making silver all day, then roll into town with a truck of silver to sell... and get waylaid by bandits.
Or followed back to his camp by thugs hired by greedy merchants.
Or kidnapped, and forced to produce silver on command.
Or get killed by the Mages of the Silver Hand, or one of the other guilds of mages that know this spell and guard their secrets well in order to protect their own wealth.
Or assassinated by vampires (or werewolves, or even a coalition of silver-vulnerable critters, as this guy is now Enemy #1).

Sure, some people somewhere could get rich with the spell... but the main effect, other than the usual power struggles over new resources, would be an eventual glut in the silver market, and a drop in price until silver was essentially worthless.
Although any and every power that makes it's money/prestige via silver production would kill to prevent this from happening, so that kind of glut would take a while.

Sure you can limit the amount of people that can buy silver but the types that WILL abuse it will ignore that, or just have them make so much silver that they sell it and buy teleport spells. Why? To teleport to new markets with all their free silver!! No doubt they will be Temporal wizards, making little dimensional pockets just full of the unlimited silver they can make.

lol
Yeah, opening up the interdimensional market would increase the time before the market is over-run.... but it would also increase the competition, and the number of people who want you dead.

Oh? Actually adventuring, about to hit town? need 10,000 to repair your buddy's power armor.. give me a moment.... ah, here you go, a brick of silver the size o a loaf of bread. Keep the change. Need more... wait a second.... Ahh.. here ya go. Another brick. Don't spend it all in one place....

There in, lies the problem.

I agree that it could be very unbalancing, and that's why it's not likely to ever be made official.
But I could see it being part of a workable campaign.

[Nightmask]

The arguments against a 'Create Silver' Spell tend to ignore a few facts, such as silver not being that pricey compared to many metals and that flooding the market will devalue it considerably. A cart of silver isn't going to go for the going price of silver, it's going to go for well under market value because it's going to hurt the market. For a similar example during the old Secret Wars II the Beyonder turned an entire office building into pure gold thanks to a stupid bit of mouthiness on the part of Luke Cage. The US Government confiscated it and dumped it all (outside of 20 gold typewriters paid to the Kingpin for securing the gold before the government got there) into the ocean so that it wouldn't cause the bottom to fall out of the gold Market. Superman in True Brit actually did devalue gold when he went into space and mined a large amount of gold and gave it away (and was promptly punished for it with taxes based on the original value of the gold not the devalued amount, because of course you aren't supposed to actually help the poor).

This seems to be a point that's almost always ignored, that flooding the market as is often tossed out trashes the value of the product in question. If a player was having their PC flood the market yes there would be consequences but so what? The GM is supposed to be having events in the game world react to what the PC do. Adjusting for a PC creating a lot of a rare material is no different than adjusting for the PC wiping out a gang or destroying a village.

[flatline]

I could easy post another three examples to pick apart if you like?

Nah, I'm good. It has theatrical uses, maybe some risky fraud potential, but nothing that I'd stake my character's life on. Temporal Wizards start with it, so I've actually put some thought into it, but the only use I've ever gotten out of the spell was to sell it to others who wanted to learn it.

I had a GM that ruled that it made items as heavy as gold for the duration of the effect, so with that ruling, you could use it to create variable weight ballast for diving or a perpetual motion machine...

-flatline