Invulnerability: It has one job and with subsequent books has become less INVULNERABILITY and more like "a bit annoying to hurt". Its become a minor power. I completely disagree with any power or ability that bypasses invulnerable characters, the only caveat is Magic. Magic bends the laws of the universe over the back of a chair and has its way with it. Everything else should follow suit as unable to physically harm the character. It does ONE thing, let it do that ONE thing. The invulnerable character can be immobilized, drowned, gassed, mentally messed. Bringing more abilities to allow for injuring the character, to me, is a sign of poor uncreative players and GMs. Oh gee how do I deal with this? My guns aren't working? None of our immense powers are hurting him? Then do something else. Figure it out. Think smarter. The only thing CLOSE to acceptable, but still not would be a power that ONLY hurts invulnerable characters. It does ONE thing vs a power that does ONE thing.
It's kind of like Literally: in all of the english language, this is the only word that should NOT be used figuratively, ever, but is all the time. It does ONE thing, to express that what you have just said actually happened as you said it had. I died laughing, literally. I literally couldn't believe it. I was literally floored.
The entire experiment may ultimately not work. But as Tiger Woods tears into the springbok, his mouth crimson with blood, he looks to have all the makings of a natural-born killer.
superman doesn't even have it. he has "armor" which acts like damage resistance, and invulnerability which acts like Force of Will (DCH)
The entire experiment may ultimately not work. But as Tiger Woods tears into the springbok, his mouth crimson with blood, he looks to have all the makings of a natural-born killer.
Invulnerability is amazingly powerful just the way it is. An invulnerable character could literally stand still and allow an entire army to unload their ordinance into his hide without even attempting to dodge and would take NO damage. That's more than enough for any single power.
If you want to cheese it more, add such powers as Impervious to Psionics, Impervious to Magic, Impact Resistance[to lessen the danger from those pesky Supernatural PS melee attacks], and various powers that remove one's need for air, sustenance, and so on.
SN Strength shouldn't be a power though. If you are any kind of magic or supernatural character you have supernatural strength and can hurt them. It just a power to make up for what XPS doesn't and to hurt invulnerables.
And you would have a point about the ordinance, but with more powers and reasons why they hurt the invulnerable, its less and less impressive. Its becoming like being a werewolf in D&D where only magical weapons and silver may hurt them. They too can take a mountain to the face and receive no damage. but it loses its impressiveness when magical +1 weapons are found in your local deli slicing your ham.
It might not be so bad if things were not designed to defeat characters, or to challenge them in battle. It should be a very rare occurrence that anything should make them bleed. Encounters with arch villains that are built to fight them should be even more rare. Most encounters should involve clip after clip just bouncing off of them but goons and strong guys still getting lip like "is that all you got? My little sister hits harder than you". It doesn't give you skills. It doesn't let you fly or jump. If it involves anything other than you not taking damage then it doesn't help. If that is all that your game is then you are bad.
The entire experiment may ultimately not work. But as Tiger Woods tears into the springbok, his mouth crimson with blood, he looks to have all the makings of a natural-born killer.
Yes Invulnerable should indeed be Invulnerable but sadly those sorts who have to nerf everything because they don't want a challenge overcoming something seem to win out far too often, while shouting down the people who disagree with slanderous accusations of being 'munchkins' or 'power-gamers' because they want everything to have some easy way to take it so that they don't have to think and find some clever way to defeat something. As noted by the omnipotent beings who gave Beatrix Farmer her invulnerability suit, it wouldn't be invulnerability if she could turn it off or had holes in its defenses so she was trapped in a costume that ensured she never needed to eat, sleep, or do anything else plus had a frictionless force field that she had to learn how to get around and pick things up.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
Don't nerf the game for anyone. sometimes there's a time to run. sometimes your fists aren't going to solve the problem. If they can't think it out, then let them fail. Now I am not talking about convoluted resolutions that no one but you get, or traps with only one way out that they will never get out, but if they can't think things out and only rely on their powers, let them fail. Just like if they don't take swimming, don't force them into the water, but if they fall in, let them drown. The next character will probably have swimming
The entire experiment may ultimately not work. But as Tiger Woods tears into the springbok, his mouth crimson with blood, he looks to have all the makings of a natural-born killer.
I tend to agree with Killwitch here. Invulnerability should be just that. You CANNOT physically hurt the character- even with Supernatural Strength. You can psychically hurt him, you can magically hurt him, but if it does physical damage, it doesn't hurt. Period- even magic swords. You want to take him down, take out his mind or his soul, or drain his strength.
But then again, I also think that the lifting power on Supernatural Strength is too low. Not the damage, but the lifting/carrying capacity. To reflect Ben Grimm's PS you'd have to have a 150 Supernatural PS.
Who are we?! We're the North Ashwood first string football team and cheering squad! Prepare to get your butts kicked!"
South Ashwood? Nah we wouldn't go there. They have too much of a problem with roving boy-bands having dance offs.
Rappanui wrote:Hyper Density is the new invulnerable power. course the power has limitations... and KW: Superman is invulnerable, in every edition of the game he's appeared in. In the original DCH version, invulnerability was explained away as massive regeneration. in other games it was defined as massive damage resistance. I think You are making an ant hill problem to a Giant Everest problem. and in comics, there's always something called "invincible/invulnerable" and then you find out.. Oh.. their weapons were just not bad ass enough... Hell the Odeons in Sentinels Were Described as INVULNERABLE because they withstood a rock slide and a puny attack by light Anti Mecha Rocket. Same scene shows a Cougar invid being disintergrated by a laser pistol, and leaping off a cliff... then minutes later goring and killing 2 bioroids...
Animation are never consistent with how strong things are. (hell Cougar stats should be SDC robots with MD weapons, because of that laser blast scene...) and being vulnerable by a STUN BLASTER)
Massive regeneration isn't invulnerability, invulnerability is not taking harm in the first place. Which is one of the reasons I've been annoyed with the Hulk's protection from harm being nerfed to replace it with 'Wolverine' regeneration and trying to retcon him as always just 'healing really fast' which contradicts all his past prior to that. While Invulnerability can have levels to it when you're talking a game with only two levels, minor and major, for powers as a major power Invulnerability should be just that you need something that bypasses the properties of invulnerability (like Kryptonite for Superman) to harm them. If every time you turn around something else shows up that bypasses it need to stop calling it Invulnerability and call it 'resistance to harm' or something because it's deceptively labeled to call it Invulnerability when it actually isn't.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
Well he's been able to heal like mad for ages now on top of his really hard to break skin. The time Vector nearly flayed off all his skin as he was pulling himself forward was what... early to mid 90's?
Daniel Stoker
Judaism - More Old School than either Christianity or Islam.
Daniel Stoker wrote:Well he's been able to heal like mad for ages now on top of his really hard to break skin. The time Vector nearly flayed off all his skin as he was pulling himself forward was what... early to mid 90's?
Daniel Stoker
Still just wrong though, making it just another Wolverine (which he was getting his major jump in the 90s and suddenly you find super-Regeneration popping up all over the place to create Wolverine knock-offs) rather than being the Hulk instead he became more Wolverine Deluxe. Boring. Wolverine shown physically ravaged and regenerating? Reasonably cool. Hulk shown ripped up and regenerating? Now he's just weak and vulnerable and a Wolverine knock-off.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
Mega damage anything shouldn't be hurting them either. The book says no physical harm. But this means that in an SDC setting we drop a ship on him and he takes no damage. MDC setting drop a ship on him, since it is now 100+ SDC damage, suddenly he can be hurt. And I don't see why they nerfed it for Rifts. Yeah 600 MDC is pretty cool. Its not infinite, but its at least a few sets of armor, oh and they get to heal. But I would rather not be able to get hurt in the first place. I would think if they were going to nerf it, it would have been the other way around 600 SDC in an SDC setting and Invulnerable in an MDC setting. I don't know what they were thinking. I guess I am going to have to ask KS at the next open house.
And the term Super Natural has gotten pretty friggan loose. Mutants are not supernatural, they are evolution. Experiments are not magical, someone played nick knack paddywac with their genes. Science at its best. Werewolves, demons, gods, vampires, mages, ghosts, magic bestowed, magic weapons are all good supernatural creatures and classes.There is enough of that to go around. It takes the bite out of their essences when you can deign anything with any origin as supernatural,... just cuz. That's why you need the mage, to take down Onslaught. Super powers are not magic unless they are gotten through one of the mystic classes.
so,... yeah,....
The entire experiment may ultimately not work. But as Tiger Woods tears into the springbok, his mouth crimson with blood, he looks to have all the makings of a natural-born killer.
KillWatch wrote:Mega damage anything shouldn't be hurting them either. The book says no physical harm. But this means that in an SDC setting we drop a ship on him and he takes no damage. MDC setting drop a ship on him, since it is now 100+ SDC damage, suddenly he can be hurt. And I don't see why they nerfed it for Rifts. Yeah 600 MDC is pretty cool. Its not infinite, but its at least a few sets of armor, oh and they get to heal. But I would rather not be able to get hurt in the first place. I would think if they were going to nerf it, it would have been the other way around 600 SDC in an SDC setting and Invulnerable in an MDC setting. I don't know what they were thinking. I guess I am going to have to ask KS at the next open house.
Well technically they didn't nerf it, just as an Invulnerable character has SDC/HP in Heroes Unlimited for the rare attacks that can get around it in Rifts they have MDC. BUT that MDC only applies to attacks that get around their otherwise invulnerable nature. They aren't simply MDC creatures vulnerable to all MDC weapons and effects. So that Glitter Boy's boom gun shouldn't be doing any injury to an Invulnerable character, maybe knock him down but otherwise no harm should come to him.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
If you want to have literally invulnerable character, go ahead, just make sure your GM is okay with it or if you GM, ask if the player wants it like that. It's not like that matters much in terms of many powers are even way more broken than it is, I don't see any harm in being literally invulnerable. Besides, even if your body may be invulnerable, magic and psionics can still affect and moves that bypass your body, such as poisons and chemicals would still affect you. And no matter even if you'd be invulnerable tons of the powers would still be able to trap you or seal you away. If being totally invulnerable is your main and biggest power, I see no reason why it couldn't be literally unhurt by anything sort of cosmic levels of powers.
However, I also feel that it makes invulnerable foe and their villain more interesting. A character who cannot be hurt by anything and is punched by a guy that makes them fly trough city and cough some blood is like "What is this... I am actually hurt?" would act as both way to make a really intimidating foe as well as make emotional scene, maybe turning a cocky hothead into revaluing their life.
So what I'm saying is total invulnerability should be an option and so would be powers and such that would actually be able to inflict damage on said invulnerable tank.
Rappanui wrote:If he wants to talk nerfing, Scraypers Powers vs Dumbed down powers in REvised conversion book 1. Extraordinary PE now only adding 2d6x5 MDC... Various Powers granting 1/2 PE as MDC, Damages reduced to d4+1, or other Dumb ass numbers..the enhanced PS now only doing damage equal to normal augmented, robot and supernatural PS...
Makes me glad I've the original version, from what I've heard none of the revised books have anything good in them worth getting if you've got the originals.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
Nightmask wrote:Still just wrong though, making it just another Wolverine (which he was getting his major jump in the 90s and suddenly you find super-Regeneration popping up all over the place to create Wolverine knock-offs) rather than being the Hulk instead he became more Wolverine Deluxe. Boring. Wolverine shown physically ravaged and regenerating? Reasonably cool. Hulk shown ripped up and regenerating? Now he's just weak and vulnerable and a Wolverine knock-off.
It's not like he never got hurt before and he always seemed to recover from that fairly quickly. Honestly saying they're really tough and can heal seems more 'realistic' when dealing with characters who get stabbed or knocked out, or beaten up etc and then are better as opposed to just waving it off. And if it takes a rather powerful character everything he has to find a way to hurt him and that doesn't last, I don't have issue with that even if to you it's a deal breaker. And considering the fact that Wolverine isn't the only or even the first character to heal faster then normal I think the lack of claws and senses etc make him different enough to not be a Wolverine clone.
Daniel Stoker
Judaism - More Old School than either Christianity or Islam.
Nightmask wrote:Still just wrong though, making it just another Wolverine (which he was getting his major jump in the 90s and suddenly you find super-Regeneration popping up all over the place to create Wolverine knock-offs) rather than being the Hulk instead he became more Wolverine Deluxe. Boring. Wolverine shown physically ravaged and regenerating? Reasonably cool. Hulk shown ripped up and regenerating? Now he's just weak and vulnerable and a Wolverine knock-off.
It's not like he never got hurt before and he always seemed to recover from that fairly quickly. Honestly saying they're really tough and can heal seems more 'realistic' when dealing with characters who get stabbed or knocked out, or beaten up etc and then are better as opposed to just waving it off. And if it takes a rather powerful character everything he has to find a way to hurt him and that doesn't last, I don't have issue with that even if to you it's a deal breaker. And considering the fact that Wolverine isn't the only or even the first character to heal faster then normal I think the lack of claws and senses etc make him different enough to not be a Wolverine clone.
Daniel Stoker
Yes Hulk got injured before, but his injuries weren't very evident because of how physically tough he used to be. When Wolverine was introduced he couldn't even scratch the Hulk with his claws because of how tough the Hulk's flesh was, now he can slice and dice him with ease as can pretty much everyone else. Hulk's pretty much a butt monkey as per the trope, routinely being shown being cut up, bleeding, and mangled like some chew toy instead of as the Hulk.
Most writers have just about forgotten Wolverine's abilities other than his Regeneration (which is why he's ended up so flandarized on his Regeneration) and his Claws. Comparing the two characters Hulk's gotten to the point of a clawless Wolverine with just greater strength and healing about the same absurdly fast rate. They even both have a berserker rage feature. Hulk should be Hulk, not Regeneration Man Deluxe.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
Nightmask wrote:Still just wrong though, making it just another Wolverine (which he was getting his major jump in the 90s and suddenly you find super-Regeneration popping up all over the place to create Wolverine knock-offs) rather than being the Hulk instead he became more Wolverine Deluxe. Boring. Wolverine shown physically ravaged and regenerating? Reasonably cool. Hulk shown ripped up and regenerating? Now he's just weak and vulnerable and a Wolverine knock-off.
It's not like he never got hurt before and he always seemed to recover from that fairly quickly. Honestly saying they're really tough and can heal seems more 'realistic' when dealing with characters who get stabbed or knocked out, or beaten up etc and then are better as opposed to just waving it off. And if it takes a rather powerful character everything he has to find a way to hurt him and that doesn't last, I don't have issue with that even if to you it's a deal breaker. And considering the fact that Wolverine isn't the only or even the first character to heal faster then normal I think the lack of claws and senses etc make him different enough to not be a Wolverine clone.
Daniel Stoker
Yes Hulk got injured before, but his injuries weren't very evident because of how physically tough he used to be. When Wolverine was introduced he couldn't even scratch the Hulk with his claws because of how tough the Hulk's flesh was, now he can slice and dice him with ease as can pretty much everyone else. Hulk's pretty much a butt monkey as per the trope, routinely being shown being cut up, bleeding, and mangled like some chew toy instead of as the Hulk.
Most writers have just about forgotten Wolverine's abilities other than his Regeneration (which is why he's ended up so flandarized on his Regeneration) and his Claws. Comparing the two characters Hulk's gotten to the point of a clawless Wolverine with just greater strength and healing about the same absurdly fast rate. They even both have a berserker rage feature. Hulk should be Hulk, not Regeneration Man Deluxe.
Just to point out, when they two first tussled comics were still subject to the Comics Code, and showing blood was not looked upon favorably. It would have been an issue with the CC Authority if Wolvie actually made Hulk bleed back then. Since much of the CC has been pretty much abandoned, now Wolvie can cut Hulk up without Marvel being fined.
But yeah, I agree about the regeneration trend. It takes a lot of the 'hero in peril' factor when you know they'll just heal up good as new in a few minutes. But Hulk is even more ridiculous now. He not only regenerates, but he can physically adapt to survive underwater and in space.
Blade with whom I have lived. Blade with whom I now die. Serve right and justice one last time. Seek one last heart of evil. Still one last life of pain. Cut well old friend... and then farewell. -Sir Orin Neville Smyth, Flight of Dragons
Nightmask wrote:Yes Hulk got injured before, but his injuries weren't very evident because of how physically tough he used to be. When Wolverine was introduced he couldn't even scratch the Hulk with his claws because of how tough the Hulk's flesh was, now he can slice and dice him with ease as can pretty much everyone else. Hulk's pretty much a butt monkey as per the trope, routinely being shown being cut up, bleeding, and mangled like some chew toy instead of as the Hulk.
Most writers have just about forgotten Wolverine's abilities other than his Regeneration (which is why he's ended up so flandarized on his Regeneration) and his Claws. Comparing the two characters Hulk's gotten to the point of a clawless Wolverine with just greater strength and healing about the same absurdly fast rate. They even both have a berserker rage feature. Hulk should be Hulk, not Regeneration Man Deluxe.
Just to point out, when they two first tussled comics were still subject to the Comics Code, and showing blood was not looked upon favorably. It would have been an issue with the CC Authority if Wolvie actually made Hulk bleed back then. Since much of the CC has been pretty much abandoned, now Wolvie can cut Hulk up without Marvel being fined.
But yeah, I agree about the regeneration trend. It takes a lot of the 'hero in peril' factor when you know they'll just heal up good as new in a few minutes. But Hulk is even more ridiculous now. He not only regenerates, but he can physically adapt to survive underwater and in space.
I don't think the CCA ever had any ability to fine someone, as a voluntarey regulatory thing they had no real power other than to deny an issue the option of placing their seal on a comic. Stan Lee's famous drug issue for Spider-Man that published without the seal went by without problems and led to the CCA eventually being completely abandoned once people saw they could publish without worrying about their approval. Either way Hulk was explicitly noted as being safe from being cut by Wolverine, it wasn't a case of Wolverine slicing him but they just didn't show blood (and showing green blood for hulk happened from time to time). Wolverine complained about not being able to cut his opponent (it was a plot point of the what-if where Wolverine had to target Hulk's throat as the thinnest spot that he could finally slice through and kill Hulk).
Yes Regeneration's been showing up far too much in the comics, it's becoming almost as common as the most common super-power. Far too many characters regenerate which is trivializing it, it's not a power that everyone should have a chance at like Flight or Super-Strength.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
Nightmask wrote:Yes Hulk got injured before, but his injuries weren't very evident because of how physically tough he used to be. When Wolverine was introduced he couldn't even scratch the Hulk with his claws because of how tough the Hulk's flesh was, now he can slice and dice him with ease as can pretty much everyone else. Hulk's pretty much a butt monkey as per the trope, routinely being shown being cut up, bleeding, and mangled like some chew toy instead of as the Hulk.
Well adamantium's also been made a lot more powerful now then it used to be. But as was mentioned you also couldn't be nearly as violent or show blood like you can these days too, so I'm not overly surprised there.
Most writers have just about forgotten Wolverine's abilities other than his Regeneration (which is why he's ended up so flandarized on his Regeneration) and his Claws. Comparing the two characters Hulk's gotten to the point of a clawless Wolverine with just greater strength and healing about the same absurdly fast rate. They even both have a berserker rage feature. Hulk should be Hulk, not Regeneration Man Deluxe.
I don't know, I still see them bringing up his senses more often then not... though what else besides those and his berserker rage is there? An inability to swim doesn't seem to be there even with those heavy bones.
And I still see Hulk being able to ignore all kinds of damage, but let's be honest they've also upped the damage capabilities of things... though is Sentry still around?
Daniel Stoker
Judaism - More Old School than either Christianity or Islam.
Nightmask wrote:Yes Hulk got injured before, but his injuries weren't very evident because of how physically tough he used to be. When Wolverine was introduced he couldn't even scratch the Hulk with his claws because of how tough the Hulk's flesh was, now he can slice and dice him with ease as can pretty much everyone else. Hulk's pretty much a butt monkey as per the trope, routinely being shown being cut up, bleeding, and mangled like some chew toy instead of as the Hulk.
Well adamantium's also been made a lot more powerful now then it used to be. But as was mentioned you also couldn't be nearly as violent or show blood like you can these days too, so I'm not overly surprised there.
Unfortunately they have been over-hyping Adamantium, ascribing impossible feats even for comics to it (people confusing artistic license with actual ability, such that they think Wolverine's really cutting perfectly circular holes through bank vaults that are 3 times thicker than his claws are long, they're sharp but they can't be that sharp), but as I also mentioned they also had the characters actually commenting on how Wolverine's claws couldn't cut Hulk, this is not simply 'well they just couldn't show blood so I'm sure he was really being cut', this is the characters themselves commenting on being unable to cut the Hulk.
Daniel Stoker wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Most writers have just about forgotten Wolverine's abilities other than his Regeneration (which is why he's ended up so flandarized on his Regeneration) and his Claws. Comparing the two characters Hulk's gotten to the point of a clawless Wolverine with just greater strength and healing about the same absurdly fast rate. They even both have a berserker rage feature. Hulk should be Hulk, not Regeneration Man Deluxe.
I don't know, I still see them bringing up his senses more often then not... though what else besides those and his berserker rage is there? An inability to swim doesn't seem to be there even with those heavy bones.
And I still see Hulk being able to ignore all kinds of damage, but let's be honest they've also upped the damage capabilities of things... though is Sentry still around?
Daniel Stoker
well as you know the only character that stays dead at Marvel is Captain Mar-vell, so while Sentry is supposedly dead and his corpse tossed into the sun sadly the villain sue will be back someday I'm sure to once again flip the bird to comic book readers as it's once again ascribed all sorts of fanboy wish-fulfillment for its creator's enjoyment.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
Nightmask wrote: Yes Regeneration's been showing up far too much in the comics, it's becoming almost as common as the most common super-power. Far too many characters regenerate which is trivializing it, it's not a power that everyone should have a chance at like Flight or Super-Strength.
NOT A power everyone shouldn't have? ... without it being common place the characters would be DEAD IN TWO ISSUES. You don't keep a current comic book series character alive when he's being bashed through walls and such... and then have him talk about oh I'm crippled for life... unless it's an Alien Legion issue... Comic book universe is always full of characters taking insane injuries and coming back from them ( such as when Doomsday fought guy gardner)
Guy Gardner also had a magic ring that could repair him and keep him alive, and most of those characters are in the high Endurance range where they heal faster to a small degree because of their enhanced physical vitality but don't actually regenerate. They also have a measure of what Palladium would rate as AR or Damage Reduction whereby being bashed through walls and the like simply doesn't inflict much actual harm onto them even if they do end up hurting because of it.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
Nightmask wrote:Unfortunately they have been over-hyping Adamantium, ascribing impossible feats even for comics to it (people confusing artistic license with actual ability, such that they think Wolverine's really cutting perfectly circular holes through bank vaults that are 3 times thicker than his claws are long, they're sharp but they can't be that sharp), but as I also mentioned they also had the characters actually commenting on how Wolverine's claws couldn't cut Hulk, this is not simply 'well they just couldn't show blood so I'm sure he was really being cut', this is the characters themselves commenting on being unable to cut the Hulk.
Well that in the bold was what he did in what... the late 80's in the first Genosha saga when they got ported in before losing their powers. I'd be interested to see that comic as it's not one I've personally read, but I may actually have that as part a trade paperback so let me take a look. But either way it's still being ramped up in ability as time has gone on.
well as you know the only character that stays dead at Marvel is Captain Mar-vell, so while Sentry is supposedly dead and his corpse tossed into the sun sadly the villain sue will be back someday I'm sure to once again flip the bird to comic book readers as it's once again ascribed all sorts of fanboy wish-fulfillment for its creator's enjoyment.
I'm hoping not, mostly as I'm not sure anyone liked Sentry.
Daniel Stoker
Judaism - More Old School than either Christianity or Islam.
Nightmask wrote:Unfortunately they have been over-hyping Adamantium, ascribing impossible feats even for comics to it (people confusing artistic license with actual ability, such that they think Wolverine's really cutting perfectly circular holes through bank vaults that are 3 times thicker than his claws are long, they're sharp but they can't be that sharp), but as I also mentioned they also had the characters actually commenting on how Wolverine's claws couldn't cut Hulk, this is not simply 'well they just couldn't show blood so I'm sure he was really being cut', this is the characters themselves commenting on being unable to cut the Hulk.
Well that in the bold was what he did in what... the late 80's in the first Genosha saga when they got ported in before losing their powers. I'd be interested to see that comic as it's not one I've personally read, but I may actually have that as part a trade paperback so let me take a look. But either way it's still being ramped up in ability as time has gone on.
No matter how much they ramp things up unless they give it a specific magical power instead of just listing Adamantium as a super-strong, nearly indestructible metal it's just artistic license when you see Wolverine doing those impossible cuts because even Comic Book physics follow RL physics without a specific exception and no blade no matter how sharp can neatly slice through something that's far thicker than the blade is long. So Wolverine's 1' long claws can't actually be slicing through 3' thick bank vaults in anything but repeated swipes as he cuts away chunks, it's not possible even for comic book physics, that's toon physics.
Daniel Stoker wrote:
Nightmask wrote:well as you know the only character that stays dead at Marvel is Captain Mar-vell, so while Sentry is supposedly dead and his corpse tossed into the sun sadly the villain sue will be back someday I'm sure to once again flip the bird to comic book readers as it's once again ascribed all sorts of fanboy wish-fulfillment for its creator's enjoyment.
I'm hoping not, mostly as I'm not sure anyone liked Sentry.
Daniel Stoker
Only his creator and apparently a few nuts at Marvel, I can't think of anyone I've heard actually say that they liked Sentry let alone have praise for the character. Yet the more people said they hated the character the more they used it to give the finger to the readers.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
I know his son came into the mainstream but I thought he stayed dead after dying of cancer (pft, cancer, some high tech those kree have)
The entire experiment may ultimately not work. But as Tiger Woods tears into the springbok, his mouth crimson with blood, he looks to have all the makings of a natural-born killer.
Just my 2 cents here.. Hulk has NEVER been Invulnerable. Highly resistant to damage yes, but not invulnerable to it. Sure he can shrug off tank shells, and withstand nuclear blasts (on occasion). More often than not though, his resistance was explained by the fact that the angrier he got, the stronger and more resistant to damage he also got.
Look back through the history of the Hulk.. and for that matter Supes, Wolverine, anyone really.. Power levels increase and decrease wildly in the comics over the course of story arcs. I've literally seen the Hulk hold a mountain above his head to protect heroes. There are times when I've seen him get taken out by Captain America. There is no rhyme or reason as to his strength level or resistance - except to further the writer's story.
Personally, I never liked the hulk that was completely resistant to damage. I never liked the Superman where he could shrug off everything without batting an eye. And I have NEVER liked how Wolverine seems nigh indestructible. My favorite comics were the ones where the Hulk fought toe to toe against other heroes (or villains), and there was a very real chance he could be defeated. My all time favorite had to be "What If.. The Hulk Went Berserk". Hulk destroyed almost everyone he came against, yet Thor was able to kill him by breaking his neck. I know it was only a What If scenario, but it gave me a new appreciation for the character, because it shows that he COULD be defeated. I don't care what anyone says, bricks are just fun to a certain point. After that, they are really just 1 dimensional. Hell, even Supes has definite weaknesses - kryptonite, Magic, and even brute force (Doomsday anyone?)
Hulk is definitely a heavy hitter.. probably THE heavy hitter in the Marvel Universe. But against certain beings, he should just not stand a chance.. There are many beings who SHOULD mop the floor with him - most Cosmic beings (Galactus for example).
Personally I think that Invulnerability and regeneration are both overused, and have become a comic book trope. Highly resistant to damage - sure. Not able to be hurt by anything? Not so much.
"It isn't the bullet with his name on it that the professional soldier has to fear. It's all those addressed 'To Whom it May Concern'" - Anonymous
Rappanui wrote:captain marvell was brought back to life no less then 4 times in 4 years..
He's never actually been back, you may see his spirit or an imposter but the original has never truly fit the criteria of brought back since he was killed off in his graphic novel. Thanos for example used the Reality Gem to bring him back from the dead for all of 5 minutes, just enough to suit copyright concerns and then willed him back to the realm of the Dead. Secret Invasion meanwhile pulled the imposter trope, a Skrull brainwashed into thinking that he was Mar-Vell.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
KillWatch wrote: Just like if they don't take swimming, don't force them into the water, but if they fall in, let them drown. The next character will probably have swimming
I learned that rule early on playing TMNT. "If you can't fly (indefinitely), you'd better learn to swim" I'm playing with a guy now who doesn't have ANY physical skills. He's a mutant hamster with only hamster powers and barely above average stat rolls. I have a feeling he'll find himself rather dead quite quickly.
Look upon me and tremble ye masses. For I am The Necroposter!
keir451 wrote:Amazing Nate; Thanks for your support!
Razzinold wrote:And the award for best witty retort to someone reporting a minor vehicular collision goes to: The Oh So Amazing Nate!
Nate, you sir win the internet for today! You've definitely earned the "oh so amazing" part of your name today.
I think if they ever get around to HU3 (PLEEEEEAAAASSSEEEE!!!!!) They should rename Supernatural Strength to something else, or at least be clear that it is not nesc. mystical in origin. That being said, I don't really mind it being able to hurt an Invulnerable Character (after all, beings like Doomsday and Darkseid can hurt Superman with the strength of their blows. That's how powerful they are.) But, to balance this, I think the Invulnerability power should also give you some bonus SDC, so that you are still extremely tough, even though there are things that can eventually hurt and/or kill you.
Also, I dislike the idea that all physical training characters can hurt Invulnerable beings. In some cases, it makes sense (if you're running a very mystical martial arts inspired game, for instance.) But in many cases, it doesn't (Batman is never going to be able to punch out Superman.) I think the ability to damage Invulnerable beings should be one power on a list of abilities that physical training characters can choose... if it fits with your character concept, great. If it doesn't, pick something else.
If you want a character immune to most damage take the following 3 powers(1 Major and 2 Minor):
Energy Absorption: Immune to Energy Attacks Immune to Melee Attacks: Immune to physical attacks 120 mph and slower Immune to high speed Attacks: Immune to physical attacks 120 mph and faster
Rifter #12 has the major super ability of Indestructibility. YOu can't be physically harmed. Period. I think that's what you want.
Damn ICE/BCP/BorderPatrol! Damn everyone who won’t damn ICE/BCP/Border Patrol!! Damn everyone that won’t put lights in his windows and sit up all night damning CE/BCP/BorderPatrol!!! If you support ICE/BCP/BorderPatrol at this point, you would have called the Gestapo on the people surreptitiously moving into your neighbor's attic and huffed that you were only following the law.
But indestructibility would just be the band-aid to fix what the game broke - but I thank you
The entire experiment may ultimately not work. But as Tiger Woods tears into the springbok, his mouth crimson with blood, he looks to have all the makings of a natural-born killer.
i play an alien experiment with invulneribity multiple selves and supernatural strength. things that can hurt him are, magic, magic weapons, magic powered characters, psionics,and other supernatural strength characters. awesome in H.U. in an mdc enviroment the rules change and the odds are more even for the badguys. just as when big blue goes to apopcalypse the foot soldiers blast him with megatech weapons it hurts, amazon woman cut him with a magic sword and of course doomsthursday laid the smack down. he is a megahero anyway so he also has that weakness to kryptonite. in this game an invulnerable character is fun to play without being unbeatable. wow you can lose get over it. in my rant i forgot about physical training also being able to hurt an invulnerable character and of course the ancient master.
It specifically states that he can be imprisoned. IF you don't want anything to be able to affect you then be the GM.
Damn ICE/BCP/BorderPatrol! Damn everyone who won’t damn ICE/BCP/Border Patrol!! Damn everyone that won’t put lights in his windows and sit up all night damning CE/BCP/BorderPatrol!!! If you support ICE/BCP/BorderPatrol at this point, you would have called the Gestapo on the people surreptitiously moving into your neighbor's attic and huffed that you were only following the law.
Sir_Spirit wrote:It specifically states that he can be imprisoned. IF you don't want anything to be able to affect you then be the GM.
Or play a Mulka!
"Freedom is the recognition that no single person, no single authority or government has a monopoly on the truth, but that every individual life is infinitely precious, that every one of us put on this world has been put there for a reason and has something to offer." Megaversal Ambassador Coordinator My GoFund Me - Help Me Walk Again
In a HU game, "no invulnerability" is one of my few restrictions. Not because I can't deal with it, but because I've never seen a player not get upset when his invulnerable character is inevitably neutralized by the "bad guys".
Invulnerability seems to make players stupid and whiny. I've seen this happen to even seasoned players.
--flatline
Last edited by flatline on Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don't care about canon answers. I'm interested in good, well-reasoned answers and, perhaps, a short discussion of how that answer is supported or contradicted by canon.
If I don't provide a book and page number, then don't assume that I'm describing canon. I'll tell you if I'm describing canon.
flatline wrote:In a HU game, "no invulnerability" is one of my few restrictions. Not because I can't deal with it, but because I've never seen a player not get upset when his invulnerable character in inevitably neutralized by the "bad guys".
Invulnerability seems to make players stupid and whiny. I've seen this happen to even seasoned players.
--flatline
Because so many seem to think what they're selecting is the unbeatable super-power so when they get beat they think they've been cheated, when invulnerability is the 'can't be hurt' not the 'cant' be beaten' superpower.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
here are some reasons for whininess; a) they are whiney b) they don't understand the power c) they understand the power but don't like the numerous caveats associated with it d) you set the game to the players. I don't design a game around players unless it has something to do with their history. And no one is designed to take on any one character. I have had so many good games where the least likely event happens just because I didn't plan it out. i knew who wanted what. I knew who was going to do what and why. But other than motivations and personalities I let the chips fall where they may. I roll everyone up randomly. I let the players be big bad arses every chance they can. I let them revel in their powers. Look, you go into the mob hang out and you have invulnerability, they are not going to be prepared for that. They are going to keep shooting until they realize nothing is happening. And that may or may not be before they are lying in a pile of their own innards. mercenaries or more combat worlly types MIGHT think of using gas, but the mob doesn't do gas. They do bullets, cement, hammers, nail guns, saws, meat slicers, etc. But I wouldn't put poison gas on their equipment list. So yeah, I would allow someone like that, save for any not so bright actions that endangers himself, to walk in and take out an entire mafia den/hq/what have you. But if somehow the place catches fire and they take in too much smoke, they go down.
But I guess I wonder at your use of the phrase ineveitably neutralized. Why are they inevitably neutralized? By design? I mean do you do it on purpose or is it just what happens? Just because a mage or psychic is present doesn't mean they know immediately how to deal with someone else's power set One of the pitfalls I avoid is that everyone knows what powers anyone else has much less what the extent is. Players and NPCs can only know what they experience. Once exception is the skill Lore: Super Powers. but in my game powers and what not are so rare that you have to be from a specialized set of agencies that deal with this exclusively. And many powers display in different ways. Sure soemone might be invulnerable, but also have a huge PE which allows them to save vs poisons and toxins. Where, to an observer, does one end and the other begin? Someone might have XPS XPE Growth Invulnerability, where the invulnerability has turned the skin a metallic gold color. To an observer it might look like an extreme version of APS: Metal
But neutralization isn't hard or creative. Its more fun when they do it to themselves. I can neutralize the hulk. Sure he can lift 500 tons, but he only weighs about, at most, 1400 lb. Spend the points and you've tk'ed him out of the fight. Keep him 1 foot from anything he can grab and he's done,... for 10 minutes.
On the player side though it must be pretty horriffic when someone with a magic stick pin does 6d6 to them, after who knows how long of not being hurt by buses, artillery, high explosives, etc
The entire experiment may ultimately not work. But as Tiger Woods tears into the springbok, his mouth crimson with blood, he looks to have all the makings of a natural-born killer.
KillWatch wrote:But I guess I wonder at your use of the phrase ineveitably neutralized. Why are they inevitably neutralized? By design? I mean do you do it on purpose or is it just what happens?
It just happens.
Characters with invulnerability are inevitably neutralized as a result of two things: 1. the antagonists, who eventually realize that their standard tactics are ineffective, begin experimenting with their tactics until they find something that is effective against the invulnerable character (e.g. "take one more step and the bunny gets it!") 2. the player of the invulnerable character, having been made complacent by not having to think, makes no attempt to adjust to the situation until it's too late.
I've seen this exact thing play out a dozen times over the years even when the GM is going out of his way to not specifically target the character's weaknesses.
Edit: Actually, there was one character who was a counter-example to my "invulnerability makes players whiny" thesis. He was designed to provide as big a distraction as possible so that the antagonists would focus on him while the other players accomplished the collective goal. His nickname was "Bait". I honestly don't remember what his other powers were or how well he accomplished his goal, but I do remember than the player didn't mind when things went badly for the character.
--flatline
I don't care about canon answers. I'm interested in good, well-reasoned answers and, perhaps, a short discussion of how that answer is supported or contradicted by canon.
If I don't provide a book and page number, then don't assume that I'm describing canon. I'll tell you if I'm describing canon.
i see nothing wrong with the power, just because you can slug it out with a giant robot doesnt really help when the pretty npc biomanipulates you into paralysis. or the ancient master gives you a painful lesson in humility or when a physical training hero powerkicks you in the face and this power is pretty much bypassed by any magicpowered hero.
well yeah but that seems really cheesy. I mean give him something to actually choke on like a puddle of water or something. The image of his chest being compressed to the point of suffocation just feels like a really cheap shot, especially to an invulnerable character, like ha ha see I got you.
The entire experiment may ultimately not work. But as Tiger Woods tears into the springbok, his mouth crimson with blood, he looks to have all the makings of a natural-born killer.
KillWatch wrote:well yeah but that seems really cheesy. I mean give him something to actually choke on like a puddle of water or something. The image of his chest being compressed to the point of suffocation just feels like a really cheap shot, especially to an invulnerable character, like ha ha see I got you.
You dont have to be comrpessed, you can just get trapped in a pocket under a few thousand tons of rubble and run out of air to breathe. This happens all the time in earthquakes, tornados, and other real world situations where buildings collapse on people.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.
Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
It would have to be something pretty dramatic. I mean I don't know of any stories off the top of my head where people suffocate to death in rubble. Maybe because it is more common, but I do hear stories about infants and old people being found days later. And if these very non super people can survive, it would seem like some sort of vendetta to kill the invulnerable guy this way. I guess it depends on the relationship between player and gm.
The entire experiment may ultimately not work. But as Tiger Woods tears into the springbok, his mouth crimson with blood, he looks to have all the makings of a natural-born killer.
KillWatch wrote:It would have to be something pretty dramatic. I mean I don't know of any stories off the top of my head where people suffocate to death in rubble. Maybe because it is more common, but I do hear stories about infants and old people being found days later. And if these very non super people can survive, it would seem like some sort of vendetta to kill the invulnerable guy this way. I guess it depends on the relationship between player and gm.
Most likely reason you don't hear about how the people suffocated to death in the rubble is because it's already a tragic event so the media (as is rare for it) focuses on any of the miraculous survivor stories (and note that the language in those news stories is quite clear about how they're an exception). Plus if you're an arrogant invulnerable type who thinks he's more immune to harm than he actually is well he's just inviting his own death by getting caught up in thinking himself above such 'petty injury'.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
I don't know if that's true. I mean it makes sense that people suffocate but the news does report o these tragedies, but they don't usually say anything about how, I mean a building fell on them what's to tell kind of attitude.
Even if someone is arrogant about their powers I don't like to plot a game or scenario around it. Sometimes happenstance and consequences provide the best lessons though; be it legal (he broke my building), social (he took my girlfriend, why are such a douche), Attacks (sure he is invulnerable but he gets that reputation and people keep trying to hurt him. They can't but it can get annoying and inconvenient if not dangerous for everyone around them-like being the fastest gun in the west or Hudini's iron stomach-everyone wants a shot at being the first to hurt them), if they frustrate the wrong guy-they may make a deal with dark powers-who are magic-who can hurt them or give powers that allows them to do so
The entire experiment may ultimately not work. But as Tiger Woods tears into the springbok, his mouth crimson with blood, he looks to have all the makings of a natural-born killer.
KillWatch wrote:I don't know if that's true. I mean it makes sense that people suffocate but the news does report o these tragedies, but they don't usually say anything about how, I mean a building fell on them what's to tell kind of attitude.
I'm really not seeing how you seem to be concluding that people don't suffocate in collapsed buildings just because the news didn't say 'X died due to suffocation', or at least are displaying an unrealistic level of skepticism at the idea that at least some death due to being caught in collapsing buildings is from suffocation for no other reason than you don't remember ever seeing a news report that said specifically that someone died due to suffocation in a building collapse.
KillWatch wrote:Even if someone is arrogant about their powers I don't like to plot a game or scenario around it. Sometimes happenstance and consequences provide the best lessons though; be it legal (he broke my building), social (he took my girlfriend, why are such a douche), Attacks (sure he is invulnerable but he gets that reputation and people keep trying to hurt him. They can't but it can get annoying and inconvenient if not dangerous for everyone around them-like being the fastest gun in the west or Hudini's iron stomach-everyone wants a shot at being the first to hurt them), if they frustrate the wrong guy-they may make a deal with dark powers-who are magic-who can hurt them or give powers that allows them to do so
You plot games around everything else why wouldn't you include their arrogant behavior into the game? It's an in-game action that carries in-game consequences. You don't get to tie rocks to yourself and jump into the ocean and not drown because 'well he was arrogant in thinking he couldn't drown when he could and it's not cool for him to drown so even though he should he doesn't. That's handing out some seriously undeserved plot armor, that his arrogant and reckless actions actually benefit him because the GM lets him get away with the actions that should carry negative consequences, maybe yes even death.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
