Tolkeen - Evil?

[Lenwen]

Tolkeen according to canon, was in fact a place of higher learning, and a great place to live prior to the war, a place in which had no military prior to the war and actually had to create everything for the war itself and create a military out its citizens and surrounding population. Who may or may not have had military expierence at all ..

I knew tolkeen was doomed from the start, but the way it played out was just total garbage .. I can say honestly the CS should have been able to beat down Tolkeen within 6 month's just due to how it fights its war's .. it did not even fight the war with its typical stratagies .. it actually tried to actively surround an cut off Tolkeen YEARS .. before the actual war started .

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Tolkeen according to canon, was in fact a place of higher learning, and a great place to live prior to the war, a place in which had no military prior to the war and actually had to create everything for the war itself and create a military out its citizens and surrounding population. Who may or may not have had military expierence at all ..

I knew tolkeen was doomed from the start, but the way it played out was just total garbage .. I can say honestly the CS should have been able to beat down Tolkeen within 6 month's just due to how it fights its war's .. it did not even fight the war with its typical stratagies .. it actually tried to actively surround an cut off Tolkeen YEARS .. before the actual war started .

Well I guess they should studied more then, huh? Some place of higher learning then

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Sometimes it's hard to tell if someone is deliberately trolling or just obnoxious by nature.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Sometimes it's hard to tell if someone is deliberately trolling or just obnoxious by nature.

no clue what you are talking about?

[flatline]

Sometimes it's hard to tell if someone is deliberately trolling or just obnoxious by nature.

Always attempt to give them the benefit of the doubt.

--flatline

[SAMASzero]

I see them as a dicotomy. A nation of Humans, FOR humans that are trying to save mankind. Yes. SOME of their leaders are evil and use the nation as a power base. But even doing so they ARE helping humans reclaim their lands and keeping humanity going. Yes their policies are ___OFTEN___ if not ___MOSTLY___ Wrong when it comes to magic and dbees, but I see where they came from. And as with tolkeen, we see that even when the CS is often and mostly wrong... sometimes they get it right.

No, that's the New German Republic. The Coalition States is only concerned with it's own power.

And all those millions of humans fighting the inhuman invaders on earth are what? A cleverly constructed ruse? The NGR IS the CS, under seige. It's not like they're friendly to Dbees. They kick them out of their nation, or at best allow them to exist as second class citizens, after they serve 20 years as cannon fodder? (( I think it's 20. I could be wrong about the number)) The Cs just doesn't use them as Cannon fodder.

The CS is NOT under siege (yet. I imagine the Federation and/or Xiciticix may change that soon). One of the things explicitly noted in Triax 2 is that the Coalition has learned what "Under Siege" really means. The CS may be surrounded by people it has proclaimed to be it's enemies, but only one of those is actively hostile. The NGR on the other hand has been in an active state of war with two enemy states of comparable power for nearly a hundred years. If you were to offer to make the CS and NGR switch geographical places, the only things that would stop the Germans from saying "yes" before you finished your sentence would be national pride and the fact that they would be subjecting someone else to their situation.

And you'll also note that despite being in a worse situation than the Coalition States, the NGR doesn't lie to it's people, doesn't keep them ignorant and dependent, and despite treating D-Bees badly (which is improving if slowly), does not declare them Enemies of the State just for existing.

If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't lie about the world's History.

Why? Because history matters when fighting aliens from other worlds? They maintain CONTROL by lieing about history. It has nothing to do with mankind's ongoing survival.

My point exactly.

Remember, history is written by the winners. Don't mistake a policy to maintain control of a people, to be 'evil'. All governments lie about history to some extent. Even if it's only egocentric representation and view point. And I never said 'ONLY concerned with Mankinds survival. They're concerned about other things as well. But mankind's survival is paramount.

No, the Prosek family's power is paramount. That is why the CS went to war against Free Quebec: Prosek didn't like anyone coming out from under his sphere of influence.

If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't make Literacy a crime.

Good thing literacy is NOT a crime.

And for teaching this NOT crime you can get 15 Years to Death (Rifts World Book 11: Coalition War Campaign, p. 29)

14% of grunts can read.

You say that like it's a good thing.

100% of military officers can read. "Uppers" Have the option of schools and have a higher percentage of literacy. There's even a university on the upper level of Chi-town. More over. There has to be literacy to be a super high tech society. The 'LEVEL' of universal literacy has been highly debated, but the fact remains, they have laser weapons, plasma weapons, rail guns, missles, explosives, jet packs, hovor vechiles, nuclear power supplies the size of hockey pucks. Millions of suits of power armor, robot vechiles, giant apc's, sky cycles, MDC alloys, Genetic knowledge and technology capiable of taking fido the dog and elevating the gene structure and genetics up to that of a sapient speaking bipedal being equal in intellect to a man. They've got robotics, skelebots, and up to bionic and cybernetic limb replacement all the way to full out Borgs, juicers and crazies.

There is no -----way------ you can have that, with out having people able to read.

Yes, this is the classic Double Standard. What is prohibited to the masses is available to the Elite and their servants. This is deliberately done to help control the populace.

This carefully executed program of ignorance and complacency is all part of Emperor Prosek's master plan. A happy and complacent people
don't condemn their leaders or question what they take for granted. Furthermore, by keeping the people blissfully uneducated and illiterate,
they don't know what questions to ask or where to find answers for any questions they might raise. This creates blind faith and total dependency on their leaders and the infrastructure their leaders have created (government, military, communications system, etc.). Such dependency leads to an intense and desperate "need" to preserve everything they have, which in turn gives their leaders even more power over them — CS citizens are known to fight tooth and nail to preserve their nation and way of life. -- Rifts World Book 13: Lone Star, p. 68

If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't have a 20-year expansion plan that involves territory held by non-hostile and even Human-controlled nations (Not just Tolkeen, they plann to take over the territories of Lazlo, New Lazlo, and Free Quebec too).

Free Quebec is old news. It WAS a member. Ceeded, there was a civil war, which is now over and they're allies. Again. You're throwing 'ONLY" out there which I didn't say. But that doesn't matter. They're expansionistic. They're reclaiming earth for humans. That they're expanding is in no way counter to that. They're starting with the territory around them. Why is Lazlo, new Lazlo in there? It's between chi town and Quebec. That's just geography. You don't have a power base, then skip over 1000s of miles of land and set up another power base. You grow out from what you have. You -expand-.

Invade, you mean. That is what it's called when you -expand- into someone else's sovereign territory. It's not like North America has a shortage of wilderness to legitimately -expand- into.

If they were only concerned with saving Mankind, they wouldn't have a support structure whose alignments generally run the moral spectrum from Aberrant all the way to Diabolic (with that last one including the man in charge and his Heir Apparent).

Why not? Just because you're evil doesn't mean you can't also want humanity to survive. Karl is plenty evil killing the enemies of Mankind. And as pointed out. Many of their leaders are evil, but the people generally aren't.

The People aren't the ones making the decisions for the Coalition, are they?

The Coalition States is not the Imperium of Man. They are the biggest option, not the best choice of a bad lot.

They're not the only choice by far. They are just currently in the US, the option with the best chance, at present. I don't think the CS is 100% good. Not by far. Many of their actions are horrid. Their views of DBees is governed by 300 years of fear and due to that, are often wrong. Not every DBee is evil. But after 300 years of fighting the evil ones, "Better safe than sorry. Humans first" is a mindset easily understood.

"Humans First" sure. "Genocide", "Ignorance", and "Fascism" ? Less so. Justification doesn't make your actions any less evil. It just means you're not a card-carrying member of the Baby-Eaters Club.

Take ZAFT in Gundam SEED for an example. Their desire to be free of the Federation was certainly a noble goal (especially in light of the ******** in charge of the EF). But their legitimate desire for freedom from oppression did not excuse their leaders trying to fry the Earth with a gigantic gamma ray cannon.

As for the 90% thing, again that's you taking something to the extreme. The books don't protray them like that at all.

Yeah, everyone knows it's more like 83%.

If you choose to protray the CS like that. As mindless black armored mooks or Loot pinyata's. That's your game. Many DO protray them like that. But it's not how they're -written-.

That was a joke. Note the smiley.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I see them as a dicotomy. A nation of Humans, FOR humans that are trying to save mankind. Yes. SOME of their leaders are evil and use the nation as a power base. But even doing so they ARE helping humans reclaim their lands and keeping humanity going. Yes their policies are ___OFTEN___ if not ___MOSTLY___ Wrong when it comes to magic and dbees, but I see where they came from. And as with tolkeen, we see that even when the CS is often and mostly wrong... sometimes they get it right.

No, that's the New German Republic. The Coalition States is only concerned with it's own power.

And all those millions of humans fighting the inhuman invaders on earth are what? A cleverly constructed ruse? The NGR IS the CS, under seige. It's not like they're friendly to Dbees. They kick them out of their nation, or at best allow them to exist as second class citizens, after they serve 20 years as cannon fodder? (( I think it's 20. I could be wrong about the number)) The Cs just doesn't use them as Cannon fodder.

The CS is NOT under siege

I know. I said, -----the NGR---- is.... the CS...., under siege.

As in the NGR and the CS are much the same but the NGR is under siege, the CS is not.

(yet. I imagine the Federation and/or Xiciticix may change that soon). One of the things explicitly noted in Triax 2 is that the Coalition has learned what "Under Siege" really means.

Again.. I was saying the NGR is. not the CS.

The CS may be surrounded by people it has proclaimed to be it's enemies, but only one of those is actively hostile. The NGR on the other hand has been in an active state of war with two enemy states of comparable power for nearly a hundred years. If you were to offer to make the CS and NGR switch geographical places, the only things that would stop the Germans from saying "yes" before you finished your sentence would be national pride and the fact that they would be subjecting someone else to their situation.

Things aren't quite so bad now. the CS is sending them food and two field armies, aren't they?

And you'll also note that despite being in a worse situation than the Coalition States, the NGR doesn't lie to it's people, doesn't keep them ignorant and dependent, and despite treating D-Bees badly (which is improving if slowly), does not declare them Enemies of the State just for existing.

Soft sell, same thing. They move them out to the borders. They're undesireables. They're unwanted and at the very best they're allowed in, after they spend years in segregated military service. If they some how survive decades of being Cannon fodder they're allowed to exist as unwanted, undesired second hand citizens.

If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't lie about the world's History.

Why? Because history matters when fighting aliens from other worlds? They maintain CONTROL by lieing about history. It has nothing to do with mankind's ongoing survival.

My point exactly.

Remember, history is written by the winners. Don't mistake a policy to maintain control of a people, to be 'evil'. All governments lie about history to some extent. Even if it's only egocentric representation and view point. And I never said 'ONLY concerned with Mankinds survival. They're concerned about other things as well. But mankind's survival is paramount.

No, the Prosek family's power is paramount.

Is it? To who? only the Proseks. Not to the Coalition. To the Coalition, MANKIND is paramount.

That is why the CS went to war against Free Quebec: Prosek didn't like anyone coming out from under his sphere of influence.

The CS didn't want to lose the naval forces or the power that Quebec represented either. While 'pride' did factor in, it's not the only factor. War is never quite that simple.

If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't make Literacy a crime.

Good thing literacy is NOT a crime.

And for teaching this NOT crime you can get 15 Years to Death (Rifts World Book 11: Coalition War Campaign, p. 29)

Depends on what you're teaching. Again. 14% of grunts can read. 100% of officers, and a percent of the upper class. Not to mention all the tech people to keep the society running. Can't both be true.

14% of grunts can read.

You say that like it's a good thing.

lol I say it to point out it's not an absolute. (( And again how 'literate' the CS is or is not has been debated often and in depth. I'm in the camp that thinks they can read on a roughly 3rd to 5th grade level over all, with higher education open to some))

Remember, every CS OOC can chose literacy if they want their character to read. Even Dogboys. The officer classes start with literacy.

100% of military officers can read. "Uppers" Have the option of schools and have a higher percentage of literacy. There's even a university on the upper level of Chi-town. More over. There has to be literacy to be a super high tech society. The 'LEVEL' of universal literacy has been highly debated, but the fact remains, they have laser weapons, plasma weapons, rail guns, missles, explosives, jet packs, hovor vechiles, nuclear power supplies the size of hockey pucks. Millions of suits of power armor, robot vechiles, giant apc's, sky cycles, MDC alloys, Genetic knowledge and technology capiable of taking fido the dog and elevating the gene structure and genetics up to that of a sapient speaking bipedal being equal in intellect to a man. They've got robotics, skelebots, and up to bionic and cybernetic limb replacement all the way to full out Borgs, juicers and crazies.

There is no -----way------ you can have that, with out having people able to read.

Yes, this is the classic Double Standard. What is prohibited to the masses is available to the Elite and their servants. This is deliberately done to help control the populace.

VERY much so. Very much so, but in that, it's pointed out that there is a segment of the population that can read. Illiteracy is not universal, it'd be impossible.

This carefully executed program of ignorance and complacency is all part of Emperor Prosek's master plan. A happy and complacent people
don't condemn their leaders or question what they take for granted. Furthermore, by keeping the people blissfully uneducated and illiterate,
they don't know what questions to ask or where to find answers for any questions they might raise. This creates blind faith and total dependency on their leaders and the infrastructure their leaders have created (government, military, communications system, etc.). Such dependency leads to an intense and desperate "need" to preserve everything they have, which in turn gives their leaders even more power over them — CS citizens are known to fight tooth and nail to preserve their nation and way of life. -- Rifts World Book 13: Lone Star, p. 68

Yep. Seems smart, especially when you need that kinda divotion to fight literal armies of demons and worse from the rifts.
It's not NICE to manipulate people. Karl IS evil after all. Manipulation is well with in his range of behavior.

I will again point out, every government does this at least in part. Ever since governments were created. In this case (( With the CS)) The writers just come right out and point at it for the benefits of the 13 year olds playin' the game.

If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't have a 20-year expansion plan that involves territory held by non-hostile and even Human-controlled nations (Not just Tolkeen, they plann to take over the territories of Lazlo, New Lazlo, and Free Quebec too).

Free Quebec is old news. It WAS a member. Ceeded, there was a civil war, which is now over and they're allies. Again. You're throwing 'ONLY" out there which I didn't say. But that doesn't matter. They're expansionistic. They're reclaiming earth for humans. That they're expanding is in no way counter to that. They're starting with the territory around them. Why is Lazlo, new Lazlo in there? It's between chi town and Quebec. That's just geography. You don't have a power base, then skip over 1000s of miles of land and set up another power base. You grow out from what you have. You -expand-.

Invade, you mean. That is what it's called when you -expand- into someone else's sovereign territory.

Yes. That is what it's called when you expand into someone's territory. In the case of Rifts. 90% of the planet isn't claimed. Which makes Expansion alot easier. As for Lazlo.. well there's a problem with the "Sovereign" part. For the longest time it was called what, the place by the river? Technically most of those in Lazlo are squatting on HUMANITY's Sovereign territory. Sort of like if you found a town of illegal aliens in southern Texas on this side of the border. That town isn't suddenly it's own sovereign nation, nor is it a part of Mexico. They're squatting on US land.

in Lazlo's case, the DBees are squatting on earth.

(( And again for the record, I -----rarely------- play humans. lol so don't mistake the arguement with my preferences. ))

It's not like North America has a shortage of wilderness to legitimately -expand- into.

Very true. And for the record, they've not yet expanded over Lazlo. But Lazlo and new Lazlo being right inbetween the CS and FQ. They're in a kinda bad spot. Lazlo knows this. They saw what happened to Tolkeen, and they're "on it". Developing new magic and such to prepair for "Their turn"

If they were only concerned with saving Mankind, they wouldn't have a support structure whose alignments generally run the moral spectrum from Aberrant all the way to Diabolic (with that last one including the man in charge and his Heir Apparent).

Why not? Just because you're evil doesn't mean you can't also want humanity to survive. Karl is plenty evil killing the enemies of Mankind. And as pointed out. Many of their leaders are evil, but the people generally aren't.

The People aren't the ones making the decisions for the Coalition, are they?

They're still the MAJORITY of the CS. You're not wrong that they're not callin' the ball, but the overall point remains.

The Coalition States is not the Imperium of Man. They are the biggest option, not the best choice of a bad lot.

They're not the only choice by far. They are just currently in the US, the option with the best chance, at present. I don't think the CS is 100% good. Not by far. Many of their actions are horrid. Their views of DBees is governed by 300 years of fear and due to that, are often wrong. Not every DBee is evil. But after 300 years of fighting the evil ones, "Better safe than sorry. Humans first" is a mindset easily understood.

"Humans First" sure. "Genocide", "Ignorance", and "Fascism" ? Less so. Justification doesn't make your actions any less evil. It just means you're not a card-carrying member of the Baby-Eaters Club.

It depends on how you define evil. (( Which there's been threads that haven't even been close to doing so.)) By INTENT, ---MOST--- of the CS are not evil. MOST of the CS military fight the Dbees because they ---honestly--- believe that they're evil alien invaders and fighting them makes their husbands and wives and children at home safer. SOME of the CS leaders are evil, perhaps even MOST CS leaders are evil, but even in their evil, they 'help' humanity as a whole. It's a tricky dichotomy. "Evil leaders using a good populace to further their power, by protecting and growing humanity, so that they have more to control over, to help humanity, to retake the planet"

I'm sure.. 100s if not 1000s of years down the road. Should the CS "Win" and there only be humans left... things would change. But as of now, they're still the underdogs fighting the 'good' fight.

Take ZAFT in Gundam SEED for an example. Their desire to be free of the Federation was certainly a noble goal (especially in light of the ******** in charge of the EF). But their legitimate desire for freedom from oppression did not excuse their leaders trying to fry the Earth with a gigantic gamma ray cannon.

Sadly I've no point of reference to say one way or the other.

As for the 90% thing, again that's you taking something to the extreme. The books don't protray them like that at all.

Yeah, everyone knows it's more like 83%.

If you choose to protray the CS like that. As mindless black armored mooks or Loot pinyata's. That's your game. Many DO protray them like that. But it's not how they're -written-.

That was a joke. Note the smiley.

lol Ok.

[Sureshot]

Sometimes it's hard to tell if someone is deliberately trolling or just obnoxious by nature.

Not sure if this was directed at me and no I was not trolling or being obnoxious. Just point a viewpoint about the CS. Not a popular one but that's why it's called a debate.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Sometimes it's hard to tell if someone is deliberately trolling or just obnoxious by nature.

Not sure if this was directed at me and no I was not trolling or being obnoxious. Just point a viewpoint about the CS. Not a popular one but that's why it's called a debate.

Nope, not you.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Sometimes it's hard to tell if someone is deliberately trolling or just obnoxious by nature.

Not sure if this was directed at me and no I was not trolling or being obnoxious. Just point a viewpoint about the CS. Not a popular one but that's why it's called a debate.

Nope, not you.

Still no clue of who you are talking about? But I suggest you stick with the subject at hand which is Tolkeen , and to think of Tolkeen might of had trolls there, defending it.

[Cyber-Knight]

Even if they had left, who's to say the Coalition wouldn't have hunted them down? At least defending their city they have the advantage of defensive ground, fortifications, and other defenses they've built up in the city over the years. If they'd left, though, they'd have none of that. Just a large civilian population exposed over open ground and being threatened by every monster between the city and wherever it is they were heading to. A determined Coalition air strike on them could've probably wiped out a large chunk of their population in one go. Trying to leave may've just resulted in their dying a whole lot faster.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Even if they had left, who's to say the Coalition wouldn't have hunted them down? At least defending their city they have the advantage of defensive ground, fortifications, and other defenses they've built up in the city over the years. If they'd left, though, they'd have none of that. Just a large civilian population exposed over open ground and being threatened by every monster between the city and wherever it is they were heading to. A determined Coalition air strike on them could've probably wiped out a large chunk of their population in one go. Trying to leave may've just resulted in their dying a whole lot faster.

Only if they were massivly retarded and just put on a back pack and walked out of the city en-mass and headed down the road in a group.

More than one person (( including myself more than once)) has posted up possible ways for the evacuation to have gone safely. Needless to say it was a bit more than "We're leavin'... with no defenses.. come blow us up please"

As for chasing them, the CS would have gotten what it wanted, tolkeen 'gone' with out the fight. Inspite of what some think the CS wern't fighting just to fight someone, there was purpose to it. Namely a huge citystate of Mages, Aliens and Demons close to their capital city/state. Had Tolkeen left, it's not like the CS would have buzzed around till they found um just to kill um. The territory would have been annexed (( Tolkeen likely leveled. JIC)) and the borders expanded.

[Giant2005]

As for chasing them, the CS would have gotten what it wanted, tolkeen 'gone' with out the fight. Inspite of what some think the CS wern't fighting just to fight someone, there was purpose to it. Namely a huge citystate of Mages, Aliens and Demons close to their capital city/state. Had Tolkeen left, it's not like the CS would have buzzed around till they found um just to kill um. The territory would have been annexed (( Tolkeen likely leveled. JIC)) and the borders expanded.

That isn't what happened though...
After Tolkeen fell the refugees fled and were hunted down relentlessly.
The only reason any of them survived is because other nations finally decided it was too much and intervened.

Sure you can say that the CS might not have acted that way if Tolkeen hadn't fought back in the first place but it is generally more accurate to base your opinions off what did happen as opposed to what may have happened.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

As for chasing them, the CS would have gotten what it wanted, tolkeen 'gone' with out the fight. Inspite of what some think the CS wern't fighting just to fight someone, there was purpose to it. Namely a huge citystate of Mages, Aliens and Demons close to their capital city/state. Had Tolkeen left, it's not like the CS would have buzzed around till they found um just to kill um. The territory would have been annexed (( Tolkeen likely leveled. JIC)) and the borders expanded.

That isn't what happened though...
After Tolkeen fell the refugees fled and were hunted down relentlessly.
The only reason any of them survived is because other nations finally decided it was too much and intervened.

Sure you can say that the CS might not have acted that way if Tolkeen hadn't fought back in the first place but it is generally more accurate to base your opinions off what did happen as opposed to what may have happened.

Well with the sorcerer's revenge still fresh in their minds, even professional soldiers do fall into a need for payback, it's one of the horrors of war that will never go away.

[DhAkael]

*Does the Tauren soft-shoe shuffle*
Oh wait, this wasn't the audition for Wurld of Warcrack; the Musical?
My bad.

Hmm... wuts this? Neo Nazi's? Formerly peaceful scholars? YEP definately in the wrong place... Carry on.

*wanders off humming "The internet is for..."*

[Pepsi Jedi]

As for chasing them, the CS would have gotten what it wanted, tolkeen 'gone' with out the fight. Inspite of what some think the CS wern't fighting just to fight someone, there was purpose to it. Namely a huge citystate of Mages, Aliens and Demons close to their capital city/state. Had Tolkeen left, it's not like the CS would have buzzed around till they found um just to kill um. The territory would have been annexed (( Tolkeen likely leveled. JIC)) and the borders expanded.

That isn't what happened though...
After Tolkeen fell the refugees fled and were hunted down relentlessly.
The only reason any of them survived is because other nations finally decided it was too much and intervened.

Sure you can say that the CS might not have acted that way if Tolkeen hadn't fought back in the first place but it is generally more accurate to base your opinions off what did happen as opposed to what may have happened.

They wern't though. "Hunted down relentlessly". There were CS Elements that were persueing the fleeing combatants. Which naturally hid with in the civilian refugees, but there wasn't any relentless hunt. There was one instance of the CS 'about' to go after some refugees by an idiot, who was stopped when someone else pointed out the JLA being there and how it'd be stupid. The Refugees are ALL OVER THE PLACE. (( and frankly, so many of them it makes you wonder as to the population.))

The Refugees went west. They also seem to have gone south and cut -through- CS territory to get to the Magic Zone, and also cut through the CS territory and up to make it to Lazlo and are swamping them with Refugees.

The CS didn't "hunt them down relentlessly" then suddenly let them go down and around their occupying army.. all the way THROUGH CS territory and into hostile or possibily hostile city states. "And" Hunt them down Relentlessly.

And it's not just my opinion. In the books themselves --everyone-- told Tolkeen to evacuate and get out of dodge.

[Lenwen]

As for chasing them, the CS would have gotten what it wanted, tolkeen 'gone' with out the fight. Inspite of what some think the CS wern't fighting just to fight someone, there was purpose to it. Namely a huge citystate of Mages, Aliens and Demons close to their capital city/state. Had Tolkeen left, it's not like the CS would have buzzed around till they found um just to kill um. The territory would have been annexed (( Tolkeen likely leveled. JIC)) and the borders expanded.

That isn't what happened though...
After Tolkeen fell the refugees fled and were hunted down relentlessly.
The only reason any of them survived is because other nations finally decided it was too much and intervened.

Sure you can say that the CS might not have acted that way if Tolkeen hadn't fought back in the first place but it is generally more accurate to base your opinions off what did happen as opposed to what may have happened.

This is 100% spot on ..

There can be no debate about what "could" have went down if this or this or that .. happened as it did not. And thus any arguement can be made ..

We as the fan's can only discuss / debate what had actually happened ..

And yes the CS were in fact gunning down refugees .. does this mean all of them ?Nope, not by a long shot but it does not mean it was not happening as some would want us to believe ..

Rather then being the last good chance for humanity, the CS was gunning down even human refugee's en-rout to a different life elsewhere ..

And it was only .. the presence of the JAL, that stopped an entire refugee grp of multiple thousands get mowed down .. Had they not been there, there is no telling what would have happened..

Tho it literally took the insubordination of a lower ranking officer to persuade the higher ranking officer on the field to stop the higher ranking officer from attacking the flee'ing .. refugee's ..

[Hystrix]

As for chasing them, the CS would have gotten what it wanted, tolkeen 'gone' with out the fight. Inspite of what some think the CS wern't fighting just to fight someone, there was purpose to it. Namely a huge citystate of Mages, Aliens and Demons close to their capital city/state. Had Tolkeen left, it's not like the CS would have buzzed around till they found um just to kill um. The territory would have been annexed (( Tolkeen likely leveled. JIC)) and the borders expanded.

That isn't what happened though...
After Tolkeen fell the refugees fled and were hunted down relentlessly.
The only reason any of them survived is because other nations finally decided it was too much and intervened.

Sure you can say that the CS might not have acted that way if Tolkeen hadn't fought back in the first place but it is generally more accurate to base your opinions off what did happen as opposed to what may have happened.

They wern't though. "Hunted down relentlessly". There were CS Elements that were persueing the fleeing combatants. Which naturally hid with in the civilian refugees, but there wasn't any relentless hunt. There was one instance of the CS 'about' to go after some refugees by an idiot, who was stopped when someone else pointed out the JLA being there and how it'd be stupid. The Refugees are ALL OVER THE PLACE. (( and frankly, so many of them it makes you wonder as to the population.))

The Refugees went west. They also seem to have gone south and cut -through- CS territory to get to the Magic Zone, and also cut through the CS territory and up to make it to Lazlo and are swamping them with Refugees.

The CS didn't "hunt them down relentlessly" then suddenly let them go down and around their occupying army.. all the way THROUGH CS territory and into hostile or possibily hostile city states. "And" Hunt them down Relentlessly.

And it's not just my opinion. In the books themselves --everyone-- told Tolkeen to evacuate and get out of dodge.

This is 100% spot on!

[Giant2005]

As for chasing them, the CS would have gotten what it wanted, tolkeen 'gone' with out the fight. Inspite of what some think the CS wern't fighting just to fight someone, there was purpose to it. Namely a huge citystate of Mages, Aliens and Demons close to their capital city/state. Had Tolkeen left, it's not like the CS would have buzzed around till they found um just to kill um. The territory would have been annexed (( Tolkeen likely leveled. JIC)) and the borders expanded.

That isn't what happened though...
After Tolkeen fell the refugees fled and were hunted down relentlessly.
The only reason any of them survived is because other nations finally decided it was too much and intervened.

Sure you can say that the CS might not have acted that way if Tolkeen hadn't fought back in the first place but it is generally more accurate to base your opinions off what did happen as opposed to what may have happened.

They wern't though. "Hunted down relentlessly". There were CS Elements that were persueing the fleeing combatants. Which naturally hid with in the civilian refugees, but there wasn't any relentless hunt. There was one instance of the CS 'about' to go after some refugees by an idiot, who was stopped when someone else pointed out the JLA being there and how it'd be stupid. The Refugees are ALL OVER THE PLACE. (( and frankly, so many of them it makes you wonder as to the population.))

The Refugees went west. They also seem to have gone south and cut -through- CS territory to get to the Magic Zone, and also cut through the CS territory and up to make it to Lazlo and are swamping them with Refugees.

The CS didn't "hunt them down relentlessly" then suddenly let them go down and around their occupying army.. all the way THROUGH CS territory and into hostile or possibily hostile city states. "And" Hunt them down Relentlessly.

And it's not just my opinion. In the books themselves --everyone-- told Tolkeen to evacuate and get out of dodge.

This is 100% spot on!

That depends on what your definition of the phrase "spot on" is I guess...
I do like what PJ wrote, I think it is well-written and excellent from a propaganda point of view - if the CS Citizens knew what was going on and had a low approval rating, I am certain Prosek and his people would come up with something similar.
But it doesn't change the fact that that isn't what happened.
"Fleeing combatants" isn't the term used by the books, the books use the term "refugees" and it wasn't a case of lone idiot, rogue agents or any random elements. It was a unified force. The refugees were "easy pickings" for CS aircraft. I sincerely doubt that the CS just gives out their bombers on a whim to any random soldier that has a personal vendetta - to get their hands on such ordinance, they would have to go through the proper channels and be sanctioned, that cannot happen without support from management.
Pacifistic nations that refused to come to Tolkeen's aid flocked to support the refugees because war is one thing but "The Coalition's continuing campaign of genocide goes beyond justice or reason." that isn't a rogue element, that is the Coalition; ie. The generic term used to define the entirety of the coalition states.
Aftermath page 57 itself uses the term "relentlessly" with reference to their "slaughtering D-Bee refugees" they even go as far as to slaughter anyone caught aiding and abetting the refugees which are now considered "enemies of the states". It also puts emphasis on the fact that they are hunting refugees well beyond the borders of Minnesota.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

You guys make it sounds it just those poor weak little refugees and that's it, well that is the farthest from the truth, all the demons and other supernatural nasties that once protect the people are now hunting them too,Guess that was a good choice there. But not counting the normal lovable types who live off misery of others who are targeting everybody including coalition.

So yeah yeah the coalition are mean people.
To this I say people should have got out when the getting was good, because if you don't believe it was going to go south then then they were bigger fool then the leaders of Tolkeen thought recruiting demons was a great idea.

[Pepsi Jedi]

As for chasing them, the CS would have gotten what it wanted, tolkeen 'gone' with out the fight. Inspite of what some think the CS wern't fighting just to fight someone, there was purpose to it. Namely a huge citystate of Mages, Aliens and Demons close to their capital city/state. Had Tolkeen left, it's not like the CS would have buzzed around till they found um just to kill um. The territory would have been annexed (( Tolkeen likely leveled. JIC)) and the borders expanded.

That isn't what happened though...
After Tolkeen fell the refugees fled and were hunted down relentlessly.
The only reason any of them survived is because other nations finally decided it was too much and intervened.

Sure you can say that the CS might not have acted that way if Tolkeen hadn't fought back in the first place but it is generally more accurate to base your opinions off what did happen as opposed to what may have happened.

They wern't though. "Hunted down relentlessly". There were CS Elements that were persueing the fleeing combatants. Which naturally hid with in the civilian refugees, but there wasn't any relentless hunt. There was one instance of the CS 'about' to go after some refugees by an idiot, who was stopped when someone else pointed out the JLA being there and how it'd be stupid. The Refugees are ALL OVER THE PLACE. (( and frankly, so many of them it makes you wonder as to the population.))

The Refugees went west. They also seem to have gone south and cut -through- CS territory to get to the Magic Zone, and also cut through the CS territory and up to make it to Lazlo and are swamping them with Refugees.

The CS didn't "hunt them down relentlessly" then suddenly let them go down and around their occupying army.. all the way THROUGH CS territory and into hostile or possibily hostile city states. "And" Hunt them down Relentlessly.

And it's not just my opinion. In the books themselves --everyone-- told Tolkeen to evacuate and get out of dodge.

This is 100% spot on!

That depends on what your definition of the phrase "spot on" is I guess...
I do like what PJ wrote, I think it is well-written and excellent from a propaganda point of view - if the CS Citizens knew what was going on and had a low approval rating, I am certain Prosek and his people would come up with something similar.
But it doesn't change the fact that that isn't what happened.
"Fleeing combatants" isn't the term used by the books, the books use the term "refugees" and it wasn't a case of lone idiot, rogue agents or any random elements. It was a unified force. The refugees were "easy pickings" for CS aircraft. I sincerely doubt that the CS just gives out their bombers on a whim to any random soldier that has a personal vendetta - to get their hands on such ordinance, they would have to go through the proper channels and be sanctioned, that cannot happen without support from management.
Pacifistic nations that refused to come to Tolkeen's aid flocked to support the refugees because war is one thing but "The Coalition's continuing campaign of genocide goes beyond justice or reason." that isn't a rogue element, that is the Coalition; ie. The generic term used to define the entirety of the coalition states.
Aftermath page 57 itself uses the term "relentlessly" with reference to their "slaughtering D-Bee refugees" they even go as far as to slaughter anyone caught aiding and abetting the refugees which are now considered "enemies of the states". It also puts emphasis on the fact that they are hunting refugees well beyond the borders of Minnesota.

Almost... if you open your book, page 57 says "Soldiers sweep and secure the toppled cities, and roam the woodlands relentlessly hunting down ---- pockets of resistance fighters----, executing practitioners of magic AND slaughterign Dbees refugees... "


Three things there. They're relentlessly hunting down the resistance fighters. They're also killing practioners of magic AND, also slaughtering refugees there. It then goes on to say how Demonic creatures, monsters, bandits, and the "Freedom fighters" themselves are preying on the Refugees. Their own people. Sploogs are there taking slaves, Tolkeens wonderful allies which others like to over look, the Brodkil, Gargoyles, Daemonix, Witchlings, Black Faries, and other monsters have likewise turned on the people. Enslaving, tormenting and yep, feeding on them. There's also Xits, there not quite calm yet.

It goes ON to say that due to lack of food, the refugees are killing one another, as freedom fighters again prey on their own people. Mercenaries that tolkeen hired and the monsters that fought with them all are targeting the Refugees. The "CS " part of it is a few lines. It goes on for the rest of the page and the half of the next page on how Tolkeen and the monsters it recurited to fight the CS are doing far worse.

And the facts still remain that there's huge amounts of refugees going west to the Baronies. And other huge amounts that have gone south, circled the entire CS army there, then gone east, over CS Territories to get to the Magic Zone, or South, around the armies, east, then north to New Lazlo and especially Lazlo (( 10,000 already, and up to 50,000 over the next month. A number I think went way up in the more recent Lazlo material)).

Even if we take the low numbers. that's Ten THOUSAND fleeing Refugees that have skirted the entire CS military that's on Scene, then managed to cross 100s or 1000s of miles of CS territory, to make it to Lazlo.

[Giant2005]

Almost... if you open your book, page 57 says "Soldiers sweep and secure the toppled cities, and roam the woodlands relentlessly hunting down ---- pockets of resistance fighters----, executing practitioners of magic AND slaughterign Dbees refugees... "


Three things there. They're relentlessly hunting down the resistance fighters. They're also killing practioners of magic AND, also slaughtering refugees there. It then goes on to say how Demonic creatures, monsters, bandits, and the "Freedom fighters" themselves are preying on the Refugees. Their own people. Sploogs are there taking slaves, Tolkeens wonderful allies which others like to over look, the Brodkil, Gargoyles, Daemonix, Witchlings, Black Faries, and other monsters have likewise turned on the people. Enslaving, tormenting and yep, feeding on them. There's also Xits, there not quite calm yet.

It goes ON to say that due to lack of food, the refugees are killing one another, as freedom fighters again prey on their own people. Mercenaries that tolkeen hired and the monsters that fought with them all are targeting the Refugees. The "CS " part of it is a few lines. It goes on for the rest of the page and the half of the next page on how Tolkeen and the monsters it recurited to fight the CS are doing far worse.

And the facts still remain that there's huge amounts of refugees going west to the Baronies. And other huge amounts that have gone south, circled the entire CS army there, then gone east, over CS Territories to get to the Magic Zone, or South, around the armies, east, then north to New Lazlo and especially Lazlo (( 10,000 already, and up to 50,000 over the next month. A number I think went way up in the more recent Lazlo material)).

Even if we take the low numbers. that's Ten THOUSAND fleeing Refugees that have skirted the entire CS military that's on Scene, then managed to cross 100s or 1000s of miles of CS territory, to make it to Lazlo.

Regardless of whomever else was hunting down the refugees, you just admitted that the CS were doing so.
That is quite different to your previous stance.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Almost... if you open your book, page 57 says "Soldiers sweep and secure the toppled cities, and roam the woodlands relentlessly hunting down ---- pockets of resistance fighters----, executing practitioners of magic AND slaughterign Dbees refugees... "


Three things there. They're relentlessly hunting down the resistance fighters. They're also killing practioners of magic AND, also slaughtering refugees there. It then goes on to say how Demonic creatures, monsters, bandits, and the "Freedom fighters" themselves are preying on the Refugees. Their own people. Sploogs are there taking slaves, Tolkeens wonderful allies which others like to over look, the Brodkil, Gargoyles, Daemonix, Witchlings, Black Faries, and other monsters have likewise turned on the people. Enslaving, tormenting and yep, feeding on them. There's also Xits, there not quite calm yet.

It goes ON to say that due to lack of food, the refugees are killing one another, as freedom fighters again prey on their own people. Mercenaries that tolkeen hired and the monsters that fought with them all are targeting the Refugees. The "CS " part of it is a few lines. It goes on for the rest of the page and the half of the next page on how Tolkeen and the monsters it recurited to fight the CS are doing far worse.

And the facts still remain that there's huge amounts of refugees going west to the Baronies. And other huge amounts that have gone south, circled the entire CS army there, then gone east, over CS Territories to get to the Magic Zone, or South, around the armies, east, then north to New Lazlo and especially Lazlo (( 10,000 already, and up to 50,000 over the next month. A number I think went way up in the more recent Lazlo material)).

Even if we take the low numbers. that's Ten THOUSAND fleeing Refugees that have skirted the entire CS military that's on Scene, then managed to cross 100s or 1000s of miles of CS territory, to make it to Lazlo.

Regardless of whomever else was hunting down the refugees, you just admitted that the CS were doing so.
That is quite different to your previous stance.

No. I said they wern't 'Hunted down relentlessly'. That thousands (( indeed TENS of thousands)) have made it
1) out of the city
2) South and AROUND the invading forces.
3) Made it past all the demons and monsters and their OWN PEOPLE, trying to rob, kill and eat them.
4) Headed east past the CS armies there conducting mop up operations.

THEN....
5) Entered the CS territory itself. Chi town (the state) no less.. and TRANSVERSE THE ENTIRE STATE from West to east.
and Either
6A) Went South East to the Federation of Magic. or
6B) Went north, further through CS territory, and out the other side to new Lazlo and Lazlo.

Tens of thousands of refugees with nothing but what they could carry did all these things, not the least of which was bipassing the entire invading army. Border security, and walked across the entire state, and out the other side, to make it to 'friendly nations' on the OTHER side of the CS.

(( yes some went west too but I'm talkin' about the harder trip.))

Now.. considering they did all that, not in ones or twos, not tens or twenties.. but to the tune of TENS OF THOUSANDS of refugees on foot..... I don't concider the CS to be hunting them TOO hard. If MILLIONS of CS troops can't find TENS OF THOUSANDS of refugees running scared on foot, when the CS has.. *motions* ALL that they have... the CS ain't lookin' THAT hard.

Did they kill refugees they found in and around Tolkeen? yeah. Did they chase some out of Tolkeen? Yeah. Did they relentlessly hunt them down? Well the tens of thousands that literally WALKED ACROSS the state of Chi Town... say not so much. lol

[Killer Cyborg]

"Relentlessly" IS a pretty big word to throw around.

[Giant2005]

"Relentlessly" IS a pretty big word to throw around.

It is also the word Kevin used to describe it within page 57 of Aftermath.

[Killer Cyborg]

"Relentlessly" IS a pretty big word to throw around.

It is also the word Kevin used to describe it within page 57 of Aftermath.

If they ever stopped, then he shouldn't have.

[Giant2005]

"Relentlessly" IS a pretty big word to throw around.

It is also the word Kevin used to describe it within page 57 of Aftermath.

If they ever stopped, then he shouldn't have.

They didn't stop, they were stopped by outside forces.

[Pepsi Jedi]

"Relentlessly" IS a pretty big word to throw around.

It is also the word Kevin used to describe it within page 57 of Aftermath.

Again.. no.. it said they relentlessly hunted the pockets of resistance fighters. Then went on to talk about the refugees after practitioner's of magic and an "And"

While they did kill Refugees, the "Relentlessly" is attributed to them hunting down Resistance fighters. Not the refugees.

[camk4evr]

"Soldiers sweep and secure the toppled cities, and roam the woodlands relentlessly hunting down pockets of resistance fighters, executing practitioners of magic, and slaughtering D-Bee refugees by the thousands. Anyone aiding and abetting these "enemies of the States" (i.e. refugees, D-Bees, sorcerers, and rebels) or opposing the Coalition War effort are likewise branded as enemies and liquidated on the spot. Worse, the CS has begun to pursue refugees and rebels beyond the borders of Minnesota."

-Aftermath, page 57, second column, approx halfway through the third paragraph.

The next paragraph goes on to say that "the situation is futher complicated by demonic creatures, monsters, bandits and freedom fighters taken to preying upon the people in Tolkeen and anybody who crosses their paths." and that "Splugorth slavers, raiders and other evil opportunists have arrived like vultures to feed on the carcass of Tolkeen..."

[Giant2005]

Almost... if you open your book, page 57 says "Soldiers sweep and secure the toppled cities, and roam the woodlands relentlessly hunting down ---- pockets of resistance fighters----, executing practitioners of magic AND slaughterign Dbees refugees... "


Three things there. They're relentlessly hunting down the resistance fighters. They're also killing practioners of magic AND, also slaughtering refugees there. It then goes on to say how Demonic creatures, monsters, bandits, and the "Freedom fighters" themselves are preying on the Refugees. Their own people. Sploogs are there taking slaves, Tolkeens wonderful allies which others like to over look, the Brodkil, Gargoyles, Daemonix, Witchlings, Black Faries, and other monsters have likewise turned on the people. Enslaving, tormenting and yep, feeding on them. There's also Xits, there not quite calm yet.

It goes ON to say that due to lack of food, the refugees are killing one another, as freedom fighters again prey on their own people. Mercenaries that tolkeen hired and the monsters that fought with them all are targeting the Refugees. The "CS " part of it is a few lines. It goes on for the rest of the page and the half of the next page on how Tolkeen and the monsters it recurited to fight the CS are doing far worse.

And the facts still remain that there's huge amounts of refugees going west to the Baronies. And other huge amounts that have gone south, circled the entire CS army there, then gone east, over CS Territories to get to the Magic Zone, or South, around the armies, east, then north to New Lazlo and especially Lazlo (( 10,000 already, and up to 50,000 over the next month. A number I think went way up in the more recent Lazlo material)).

Even if we take the low numbers. that's Ten THOUSAND fleeing Refugees that have skirted the entire CS military that's on Scene, then managed to cross 100s or 1000s of miles of CS territory, to make it to Lazlo.

Regardless of whomever else was hunting down the refugees, you just admitted that the CS were doing so.
That is quite different to your previous stance.

No. I said they wern't 'Hunted down relentlessly'. That thousands (( indeed TENS of thousands)) have made it
1) out of the city
2) South and AROUND the invading forces.
3) Made it past all the demons and monsters and their OWN PEOPLE, trying to rob, kill and eat them.
4) Headed east past the CS armies there conducting mop up operations.

THEN....
5) Entered the CS territory itself. Chi town (the state) no less.. and TRANSVERSE THE ENTIRE STATE from West to east.
and Either
6A) Went South East to the Federation of Magic. or
6B) Went north, further through CS territory, and out the other side to new Lazlo and Lazlo.

Tens of thousands of refugees with nothing but what they could carry did all these things, not the least of which was bipassing the entire invading army. Border security, and walked across the entire state, and out the other side, to make it to 'friendly nations' on the OTHER side of the CS.

(( yes some went west too but I'm talkin' about the harder trip.))

Now.. considering they did all that, not in ones or twos, not tens or twenties.. but to the tune of TENS OF THOUSANDS of refugees on foot..... I don't concider the CS to be hunting them TOO hard. If MILLIONS of CS troops can't find TENS OF THOUSANDS of refugees running scared on foot, when the CS has.. *motions* ALL that they have... the CS ain't lookin' THAT hard.

Did they kill refugees they found in and around Tolkeen? yeah. Did they chase some out of Tolkeen? Yeah. Did they relentlessly hunt them down? Well the tens of thousands that literally WALKED ACROSS the state of Chi Town... say not so much. lol

Read Aftermath page 36. most notably the section headed: "The barrier to the East", I'm not going to write out the entire section but the general synopsis is the fact that the CS formed a blockade to prevent exactly what you said happened from happening. They checked out every traveler and killed everything that was a DBee or a Magic User. Anyone that managed to get by them did so very stealthily, they managed to avoid the CS - they weren't shown some kind of uncharacteristic form of mercy.

Whether or not you think the term Kevin used "relentlessly" applies to the entire sentence, or just the part that suits you best doesn't really matter. Whether he applies the word or not, the definition is certainly fitting.
Aftermath page 36 tells us that they blockaded to the east, mercilessly slaughtering any DBee or Magic User that came by.
Aftermath page 57 tells us that they hunted the refugees down, even far beyond the borders of Minnesota.
Aftermath page 46 tells us that the Coalition forces never stopped hunting down the refugees, instead they were stopped by outside forces who were "NOT willing to stand by idly while the CS slaughters thousands of innocent people on the run".
The CS never intended for a single Tolkenite to survive that war and they literally did everything they could to make sure that was the outcome. The fact that they failed doesn't imply mercy, only failure.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Almost... if you open your book, page 57 says "Soldiers sweep and secure the toppled cities, and roam the woodlands relentlessly hunting down ---- pockets of resistance fighters----, executing practitioners of magic AND slaughterign Dbees refugees... "


Three things there. They're relentlessly hunting down the resistance fighters. They're also killing practioners of magic AND, also slaughtering refugees there. It then goes on to say how Demonic creatures, monsters, bandits, and the "Freedom fighters" themselves are preying on the Refugees. Their own people. Sploogs are there taking slaves, Tolkeens wonderful allies which others like to over look, the Brodkil, Gargoyles, Daemonix, Witchlings, Black Faries, and other monsters have likewise turned on the people. Enslaving, tormenting and yep, feeding on them. There's also Xits, there not quite calm yet.

It goes ON to say that due to lack of food, the refugees are killing one another, as freedom fighters again prey on their own people. Mercenaries that tolkeen hired and the monsters that fought with them all are targeting the Refugees. The "CS " part of it is a few lines. It goes on for the rest of the page and the half of the next page on how Tolkeen and the monsters it recurited to fight the CS are doing far worse.

And the facts still remain that there's huge amounts of refugees going west to the Baronies. And other huge amounts that have gone south, circled the entire CS army there, then gone east, over CS Territories to get to the Magic Zone, or South, around the armies, east, then north to New Lazlo and especially Lazlo (( 10,000 already, and up to 50,000 over the next month. A number I think went way up in the more recent Lazlo material)).

Even if we take the low numbers. that's Ten THOUSAND fleeing Refugees that have skirted the entire CS military that's on Scene, then managed to cross 100s or 1000s of miles of CS territory, to make it to Lazlo.

Regardless of whomever else was hunting down the refugees, you just admitted that the CS were doing so.
That is quite different to your previous stance.

No. I said they wern't 'Hunted down relentlessly'. That thousands (( indeed TENS of thousands)) have made it
1) out of the city
2) South and AROUND the invading forces.
3) Made it past all the demons and monsters and their OWN PEOPLE, trying to rob, kill and eat them.
4) Headed east past the CS armies there conducting mop up operations.

THEN....
5) Entered the CS territory itself. Chi town (the state) no less.. and TRANSVERSE THE ENTIRE STATE from West to east.
and Either
6A) Went South East to the Federation of Magic. or
6B) Went north, further through CS territory, and out the other side to new Lazlo and Lazlo.

Tens of thousands of refugees with nothing but what they could carry did all these things, not the least of which was bipassing the entire invading army. Border security, and walked across the entire state, and out the other side, to make it to 'friendly nations' on the OTHER side of the CS.

(( yes some went west too but I'm talkin' about the harder trip.))

Now.. considering they did all that, not in ones or twos, not tens or twenties.. but to the tune of TENS OF THOUSANDS of refugees on foot..... I don't concider the CS to be hunting them TOO hard. If MILLIONS of CS troops can't find TENS OF THOUSANDS of refugees running scared on foot, when the CS has.. *motions* ALL that they have... the CS ain't lookin' THAT hard.

Did they kill refugees they found in and around Tolkeen? yeah. Did they chase some out of Tolkeen? Yeah. Did they relentlessly hunt them down? Well the tens of thousands that literally WALKED ACROSS the state of Chi Town... say not so much. lol

Read Aftermath page 36. most notably the section headed: "The barrier to the East", I'm not going to write out the entire section but the general synopsis is the fact that the CS formed a blockade to prevent exactly what you said happened from happening. They checked out every traveler and killed everything that was a DBee or a Magic User. Anyone that managed to get by them did so very stealthily, they managed to avoid the CS - they weren't shown some kind of uncharacteristic form of mercy.

Whether or not you think the term Kevin used "relentlessly" applies to the entire sentence, or just the part that suits you best doesn't really matter. Whether he applies the word or not, the definition is certainly fitting.
Aftermath page 36 tells us that they blockaded to the east, mercilessly slaughtering any DBee or Magic User that came by.
Aftermath page 57 tells us that they hunted the refugees down, even far beyond the borders of Minnesota.
Aftermath page 46 tells us that the Coalition forces never stopped hunting down the refugees, instead they were stopped by outside forces who were "NOT willing to stand by idly while the CS slaughters thousands of innocent people on the run".
The CS never intended for a single Tolkenite to survive that war and they literally did everything they could to make sure that was the outcome. The fact that they failed doesn't imply mercy, only failure.

We it is the coalition and not the boy scouts, everybody not on the coalition side falls into the enemy of the state category.

[flatline]

We it is the coalition and not the boy scouts, everybody not on the coalition side falls into the enemy of the state category.

So because it was the Coalition that did it, that makes it okay?

--flatline

[Colt47]

The CS are about as black as black can get... with black armor and skulls thrown on top for good measure. Tolkeen wasn't evil in any regard, though I would say they were a little bit gun-ho.

[Wise_Owl]

The Coalition states are comic villians. What I mean is they are more or less saturday morning villians, with Karl sitting on his thrown and laughing about his newest evil scheme. Trying to make them function with 'depth' is difficult not just because of how they are written but because they are given deus ex machina throughout the books, and in terms of providing a hefty 'villian' for PC's to have to deal with, that's fine and dandy.

The Coalition mass murders refugee's, has various slave castes, a society specifically developed to evoke the Naz's, persecutes huge numbers of it's own citizenry, and is a fundementally authoritarian regime rules by people who see themeselves as 'savoirs' of humanity and who, by any objective standard, just aren't.

By the same Token, Tolkeen was written, in the 'War' series in a way that was less about 'geo-politics' or what have you and more about generating interesting events for players to inter-act with. There is a discussion to be had on whether summoning demons is evil and for the sake of survival what is permittable and so forth, but honestly I think it's a bit beyond reasonable. Tolkeen was meant to be tragic(that I think the writting fails on this front on multiple points is besides the point).

[Pepsi Jedi]

Almost... if you open your book, page 57 says "Soldiers sweep and secure the toppled cities, and roam the woodlands relentlessly hunting down ---- pockets of resistance fighters----, executing practitioners of magic AND slaughterign Dbees refugees... "


Three things there. They're relentlessly hunting down the resistance fighters. They're also killing practioners of magic AND, also slaughtering refugees there. It then goes on to say how Demonic creatures, monsters, bandits, and the "Freedom fighters" themselves are preying on the Refugees. Their own people. Sploogs are there taking slaves, Tolkeens wonderful allies which others like to over look, the Brodkil, Gargoyles, Daemonix, Witchlings, Black Faries, and other monsters have likewise turned on the people. Enslaving, tormenting and yep, feeding on them. There's also Xits, there not quite calm yet.

It goes ON to say that due to lack of food, the refugees are killing one another, as freedom fighters again prey on their own people. Mercenaries that tolkeen hired and the monsters that fought with them all are targeting the Refugees. The "CS " part of it is a few lines. It goes on for the rest of the page and the half of the next page on how Tolkeen and the monsters it recurited to fight the CS are doing far worse.

And the facts still remain that there's huge amounts of refugees going west to the Baronies. And other huge amounts that have gone south, circled the entire CS army there, then gone east, over CS Territories to get to the Magic Zone, or South, around the armies, east, then north to New Lazlo and especially Lazlo (( 10,000 already, and up to 50,000 over the next month. A number I think went way up in the more recent Lazlo material)).

Even if we take the low numbers. that's Ten THOUSAND fleeing Refugees that have skirted the entire CS military that's on Scene, then managed to cross 100s or 1000s of miles of CS territory, to make it to Lazlo.

Regardless of whomever else was hunting down the refugees, you just admitted that the CS were doing so.
That is quite different to your previous stance.

No. I said they wern't 'Hunted down relentlessly'. That thousands (( indeed TENS of thousands)) have made it
1) out of the city
2) South and AROUND the invading forces.
3) Made it past all the demons and monsters and their OWN PEOPLE, trying to rob, kill and eat them.
4) Headed east past the CS armies there conducting mop up operations.

THEN....
5) Entered the CS territory itself. Chi town (the state) no less.. and TRANSVERSE THE ENTIRE STATE from West to east.
and Either
6A) Went South East to the Federation of Magic. or
6B) Went north, further through CS territory, and out the other side to new Lazlo and Lazlo.

Tens of thousands of refugees with nothing but what they could carry did all these things, not the least of which was bipassing the entire invading army. Border security, and walked across the entire state, and out the other side, to make it to 'friendly nations' on the OTHER side of the CS.

(( yes some went west too but I'm talkin' about the harder trip.))

Now.. considering they did all that, not in ones or twos, not tens or twenties.. but to the tune of TENS OF THOUSANDS of refugees on foot..... I don't concider the CS to be hunting them TOO hard. If MILLIONS of CS troops can't find TENS OF THOUSANDS of refugees running scared on foot, when the CS has.. *motions* ALL that they have... the CS ain't lookin' THAT hard.

Did they kill refugees they found in and around Tolkeen? yeah. Did they chase some out of Tolkeen? Yeah. Did they relentlessly hunt them down? Well the tens of thousands that literally WALKED ACROSS the state of Chi Town... say not so much. lol

Read Aftermath page 36. most notably the section headed: "The barrier to the East", I'm not going to write out the entire section but the general synopsis is the fact that the CS formed a blockade to prevent exactly what you said happened from happening. They checked out every traveler and killed everything that was a DBee or a Magic User. Anyone that managed to get by them did so very stealthily, they managed to avoid the CS - they weren't shown some kind of uncharacteristic form of mercy.

Whether or not you think the term Kevin used "relentlessly" applies to the entire sentence, or just the part that suits you best doesn't really matter. Whether he applies the word or not, the definition is certainly fitting.
Aftermath page 36 tells us that they blockaded to the east, mercilessly slaughtering any DBee or Magic User that came by.
Aftermath page 57 tells us that they hunted the refugees down, even far beyond the borders of Minnesota.
Aftermath page 46 tells us that the Coalition forces never stopped hunting down the refugees, instead they were stopped by outside forces who were "NOT willing to stand by idly while the CS slaughters thousands of innocent people on the run".
The CS never intended for a single Tolkenite to survive that war and they literally did everything they could to make sure that was the outcome. The fact that they failed doesn't imply mercy, only failure.

Again it sounds good when you try and paraphrase it but when you open the book.... it says.... pretty much exactly what I did. "The Barrier to the east" ---- IS----- the Coalition STATES. As I said.. You had to cross the entire CS from West to East to get to the Fed, or Lazlos. I pointed that out. lol. That the Refugees had to go south, cirumvent the invading armies, then east through the CS to get to where they're going. The "blocade" which you put up, consisted of one sentence saying they patrolled the Mississippi. That if they caught DBees or magic users they killed them.

Neither of which is against what I said.

More over the fact that TENS OF THOUSANDS made it through anyway just strengthens my point. If you have ultra high tech optics, radar, flight, boats, and ground vechiles, and yet you can't find tens of thousands of people walking through your back yard. You're -----not----- looking that hard.

Did they know some refugees would go through? Yes. Did they throw out some patrols for that purpose? Yes.

Did TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ON FOOT transverse the entire CS states from West to east (( not north to south, that'd be harder)) And make it to 'friendly places'? Yes.

If tens of thousands of people did it, with out getting slaughtered, on foot, with the possessions on their back, then those trying to kill them, wern't looking too hard.

Your entire point is "The CS knew it'd happen and stopped them! HA! It proves they hunted down all the refugees!"

My point is "The CS Knew.... and yet, tens of thousands of people did it anyway, so that shows that while they went through the motions, they threw up some patrols. They DID kill the ones they found.... that they some how missed tens of thousands of refugees on foot, so they wern't looking THAT hard.

[flatline]

So you say the CS wasn't looking that hard, yet the books say they were "relentless".

You don't see the disconnect between your position and the books'?

--flatline

[Lenwen]

So you say the CS wasn't looking that hard, yet the books say they were "relentless".

You don't see the disconnect between your position and the books'?

--flatline

Some people never do..

[Killer Cyborg]

So you say the CS wasn't looking that hard, yet the books say they were "relentless".

You don't see the disconnect between your position and the books'?

--flatline

Hm.
Just to point out semantics, there is a difference between a relentless search/hunt, and a massive search/hunt.
Javert was relentless in his pursuit of Jean Valjean, for example, so it could be claimed that the authorities pursued him "relentlessly."
But it doesn't necessarily mean that anybody other than Javert really cared if Jean Valjean was captured.

[Pepsi Jedi]

So you say the CS wasn't looking that hard, yet the books say they were "relentless".

You don't see the disconnect between your position and the books'?

--flatline

The books don't say relentless. As I've pointed out, it said they relentlessly hunted down the freedom fighters.... did something else (( killed practicioners of magic)) AND... slaughtered Dbee refugees.

In the English language when you use comma's and the word 'AND'. You're separating things in the same sentence. It's the same thing as writing

"The CS Relentlessly hunted down resistance fighters.

It also executed practitioners of magic.

The CS also slaughtered debee refugees"

*Shrugs* That's just how English works. I'm sorry but it doesn't say they relentlessly hunted refugees.

The text DOES say they killed them. And a goodly number of them. it DOES say they even chased some out of Minnesota. There's two or three sentences to that effect. They then go on at length for a half a page or more to point out their own 'Demonic and monstrous allies" and their own 'freedom fighters" are preying on their own people. There's ---much--- more written about that happening.

And again. Tens of Thousands of people not only got around an entire invading army but across the breadth of the CS unmolested and to Lazlo or the Fed. They weren't lookin' that hard.

[camk4evr]

Um, actually, Pepsi, english isn't that precise a language (if it were we could program computers using standard written english) the way the sentence is written it can be interpretted in two ways (not that there aren't ways to make the statemnet more precise but as they weren't used...):

1) the CS relentlessly:
- hunted down pockets of resistance fighters
-executed practitioners of magic
-slaughtered D-Bee refugees by the thousands

or

2) the CS:
- relentlessly hunted down pockets of resistance fighters
- executed practitioners of magic,
- slaughtered D-Bee refugees by the thousands

[Pepsi Jedi]

Um, actually, Pepsi, english isn't that precise a language (if it were we could program computers using standard written english) the way the sentence is written it can be interpretted in two ways (not that there aren't ways to make the statemnet more precise but as they weren't used...):

1) the CS relentlessly:
- hunted down pockets of resistance fighters
-executed practitioners of magic
-slaughtered D-Bee refugees by the thousands

or

2) the CS:
- relentlessly hunted down pockets of resistance fighters
- executed practitioners of magic,
- slaughtered D-Bee refugees by the thousands

No, because the comma was not after 'relentlessly'. To get the first version above the sentence would have had to be written as
"Soldiers sweep and secure the toppled cities, and roam the woodlands relentlessly, hunting down pockets of resistance fighters, executing practitioners of magic AND slaughtering Dbees refugees.."

or

"Soldiers sweep and secure the toppled cities, and roam the woodlands relentlessly: hunting down pockets of resistance fighters, executing practitioners of magic AND slaughtering Dbees refugees.."

But it's not, it's written

"Soldiers sweep and secure the toppled cities, and roam the woodlands relentlessly hunting down pockets of resistance fighters, executing practitioners of magic AND slaughtering Dbees refugees.."

Roaming the woodlands relentlessly hunting down pockets of Resistance fighters.

Executing practitioners of magic.

Slaughtering debee refugees.

You are very correct that the English language isn't 100% precise. Still that being said the sentence is not written as some are reading it. If nothing else the word "And" Sets apart the slaughter of refugees from the rest. (( The comma's do too.))


(( Just for the record. I hate spelling and grammar Nazi's. I'm not trying to be one. I'm just pointing out that the sentence isn't quite as being portrayed and hammered on by some. It doesn't say what they say that it says. If it wasn't the point of the debate, I wouldn't even care. lol but as it's the 'point' of this part, the specificity matters. ))

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm thinking that Pepsi's correct here.

[SAMASzero]

I see them as a dicotomy. A nation of Humans, FOR humans that are trying to save mankind. Yes. SOME of their leaders are evil and use the nation as a power base. But even doing so they ARE helping humans reclaim their lands and keeping humanity going. Yes their policies are ___OFTEN___ if not ___MOSTLY___ Wrong when it comes to magic and dbees, but I see where they came from. And as with tolkeen, we see that even when the CS is often and mostly wrong... sometimes they get it right.

No, that's the New German Republic. The Coalition States is only concerned with it's own power.

And all those millions of humans fighting the inhuman invaders on earth are what? A cleverly constructed ruse? The NGR IS the CS, under seige. It's not like they're friendly to Dbees. They kick them out of their nation, or at best allow them to exist as second class citizens, after they serve 20 years as cannon fodder? (( I think it's 20. I could be wrong about the number)) The Cs just doesn't use them as Cannon fodder.

The CS is NOT under siege

I know. I said, -----the NGR---- is.... the CS...., under siege.

As in the NGR and the CS are much the same but the NGR is under siege, the CS is not.

And yet the NGR, with enemies that are an actual threat, the NGR leaves magic-users alone. It does not keep it's masses ignorant, and as bad as it treats D-Bees, it lets them speak out and prove themselves ("General" Rasheen, et al).

And the whole Genocide thing, we can't forget that.

(yet. I imagine the Federation and/or Xiciticix may change that soon). One of the things explicitly noted in Triax 2 is that the Coalition has learned what "Under Siege" really means.

Again.. I was saying the NGR is. not the CS.

And yet below...

The CS may be surrounded by people it has proclaimed to be it's enemies, but only one of those is actively hostile. The NGR on the other hand has been in an active state of war with two enemy states of comparable power for nearly a hundred years. If you were to offer to make the CS and NGR switch geographical places, the only things that would stop the Germans from saying "yes" before you finished your sentence would be national pride and the fact that they would be subjecting someone else to their situation.

Things aren't quite so bad now. the CS is sending them food and two field armies, aren't they?

Like that changes things. Granted, the NGR is making things better themselves, but yeah, the opportunity to instantly be safer? You can't tell me that wouldn't be awfully tempting.

And you'll also note that despite being in a worse situation than the Coalition States, the NGR doesn't lie to it's people, doesn't keep them ignorant and dependent, and despite treating D-Bees badly (which is improving if slowly), does not declare them Enemies of the State just for existing.

Soft sell, same thing. They move them out to the borders. They're undesireables. They're unwanted and at the very best they're allowed in, after they spend years in segregated military service. If they some how survive decades of being Cannon fodder they're allowed to exist as unwanted, undesired second hand citizens.

Not the same thing. D-Bees in the NGR have the opportunity to improve their life, in the NGR, as part of the NGR, without a sudden and violent change in regime. You think they would ever have that opportunity even near the CS as long as the Proseks are alive? Or afterwards, for that matter?

If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't lie about the world's History.

Why? Because history matters when fighting aliens from other worlds? They maintain CONTROL by lieing about history. It has nothing to do with mankind's ongoing survival.

My point exactly.

Remember, history is written by the winners. Don't mistake a policy to maintain control of a people, to be 'evil'. All governments lie about history to some extent. Even if it's only egocentric representation and view point. And I never said 'ONLY concerned with Mankinds survival. They're concerned about other things as well. But mankind's survival is paramount.

No, the Prosek family's power is paramount. [/quote]

Is it? To who? only the Proseks. Not to the Coalition. To the Coalition, MANKIND is paramount. [/quote]

To quote Louis XIV (allegedly): "L'etat, c'est moi". The Coalition States is a Facist state. That means a small group of people make the decisions for the state as a whole. And in this case they lie, withhold information, and misrepresent those facts they do let on to skew their people into blindly agreeing with them.

That is why the CS went to war against Free Quebec: Prosek didn't like anyone coming out from under his sphere of influence.

The CS didn't want to lose the naval forces or the power that Quebec represented either. While 'pride' did factor in, it's not the only factor. War is never quite that simple. [/quote]

Quebec didn't just decide to break off one day. It was because the Coalition as a whole, and Chi-Town (i.e. Prosek and his cronies) in particular, were trying to make them run their nation the way they wanted them too.

"For the last decade Chi-Town had begun to make unilateral policy decisions for the greater good of the Coalition States. Decisions that
free Quebec either disagreed with or which they felt removed from the decision making process; Consideration for the individual allied States seemed to have evaporated. They no longer seemed to be regarded or treated as equals, but as silent partners meant to do as they were
told. Fiercely independent, the people and government of Quebec saw this disregard as an insult and a violation of the people's civil liberties and the regional government's autonomy... ...Free Quebec was willing to work with Chi-Town and the other states, but they demanded to govern and defend themselves as "they" saw fit. To make their own laws, maintain their own unique military and live under their own
regional laws, traditions and moral sensibilities... ...Free Quebec began to see edicts like the dismantling of the Glitter Boys, supposedly in favor of a uniform (Chi-Town designed) army, as a thinly disguised plot to undermine their nation... ...a deliberate effort to limit and control the Quebec Army, making them reliant on Chi-Town for its defenses and military technology." (World Book 23: Free Quebec, pp. 12-13

If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't make Literacy a crime.

Good thing literacy is NOT a crime.

And for teaching this NOT crime you can get 15 Years to Death (Rifts World Book 11: Coalition War Campaign, p. 29) [/quote]

Depends on what you're teaching. [/quote]

"Depends?" Read:

"These books, particularly those that focus on the pre-Rifts American and Canadian Empires and Erin Tarn's political observations
and commentaries on Emperor Prosek, young Joseph Prosek II, the Coalition's reprehensible policies of fascism, racism, genocide, rewriting of history, and its attempt to keep its people ignorant/illiterate, have branded Erin as public Enemy Number One for the last five years (and earned her a place on the top 20 list for the last 32 years)." (Rifts World Book 11: Coalition War Campaign, p. 14)

"Subversive Activities involving education and the dissemination of dangerous ideas: This includes rogue scholars and scientists teaching the peasant masses and illiterate citizens of the CS (even those of the middle and lower levels) how to read, write, mathematics and pre-Rifts history (or any history that differs from the official CS version). The penalty ranges from 15 years to life imprisonment, and even death." (Rifts World Book 11: Coalition War Campaign, p. 29)

"By simply instilling uneducated people with curiosity, teaching them little things like how to read, write, and arithmetic, can sow the seeds
of destruction. This completely undermines the Coalition's carefully executed plan to keep its citizens illiterate, uneducated, and complacent.
A curious mind will always ask questions and ultimately challenge the authority before it when those questions are not satisfactorily answered.
Something the powers that be dislike." (Rifts Main Book p. 79}

To reiterate: The CS hunts people for teaching the masses (the Military and the Elite, by definition, are not "The Masses"), and their Public Enemy #1 is a History Teacher.

This carefully executed program of ignorance and complacency is all part of Emperor Prosek's master plan. A happy and complacent people
don't condemn their leaders or question what they take for granted. Furthermore, by keeping the people blissfully uneducated and illiterate,
they don't know what questions to ask or where to find answers for any questions they might raise. This creates blind faith and total dependency on their leaders and the infrastructure their leaders have created (government, military, communications system, etc.). Such dependency leads to an intense and desperate "need" to preserve everything they have, which in turn gives their leaders even more power over them — CS citizens are known to fight tooth and nail to preserve their nation and way of life. -- Rifts World Book 13: Lone Star, p. 68

Yep. Seems smart, especially when you need that kinda divotion to fight literal armies of demons and worse from the rifts.
It's not NICE to manipulate people. Karl IS evil after all. Manipulation is well with in his range of behavior.

And here's the "yet below" I mentioned before.

WHAT Literal army of Demons?

And if it's such a smart decision, why does the NGR, which we have both established is in a far worse and more immediate situation, not see the need to do so?

I will again point out, every government does this at least in part. Ever since governments were created. In this case (( With the CS)) The writers just come right out and point at it for the benefits of the 13 year olds playin' the game.

"In part". But that's the thing, isn't it? Sometimes the difference between Virtue and Deadly Sin is how much. And in 77 P.A., the Coalition went too much.

If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't have a 20-year expansion plan that involves territory held by non-hostile and even Human-controlled nations (Not just Tolkeen, they plann to take over the territories of Lazlo, New Lazlo, and Free Quebec too).

Free Quebec is old news. It WAS a member. Ceeded, there was a civil war, which is now over and they're allies. Again. You're throwing 'ONLY" out there which I didn't say. But that doesn't matter. They're expansionistic. They're reclaiming earth for humans. That they're expanding is in no way counter to that. They're starting with the territory around them. Why is Lazlo, new Lazlo in there? It's between chi town and Quebec. That's just geography. You don't have a power base, then skip over 1000s of miles of land and set up another power base. You grow out from what you have. You -expand-.

Invade, you mean. That is what it's called when you -expand- into someone else's sovereign territory. [/quote]

Yes. That is what it's called when you expand into someone's territory. In the case of Rifts. 90% of the planet isn't claimed. Which makes Expansion alot easier.[/quote]

And yet, there they go "expanding" into people's homes.

As for Lazlo.. well there's a problem with the "Sovereign" part. For the longest time it was called what, the place by the river? Technically most of those in Lazlo are squatting on HUMANITY's Sovereign territory. Sort of like if you found a town of illegal aliens in southern Texas on this side of the border. That town isn't suddenly it's own sovereign nation, nor is it a part of Mexico. They're squatting on US land.

in Lazlo's case, the DBees are squatting on earth.

False analogy (and a bad one to boot). Lazlo, like most large palces on Earth has a predominately Human population. Your "town" is at least 50% Good Old-Fashioned White People, and the majority of the Mexicans were born in that town (and thus on American soil), making them citizens, too.

Even if we assume they're squatting, there's a little thing called Adverse Possession, a.k.a. Squatter's Rights. Depending on how long the town has been there, that land could be theirs Legally.

Also, unlike your analogy, the CS has no legal claim to the land Lazlo is built on.

The Coalition States is not the Imperium of Man. They are the biggest option, not the best choice of a bad lot.

They're not the only choice by far. They are just currently in the US, the option with the best chance, at present. I don't think the CS is 100% good. Not by far. Many of their actions are horrid. Their views of DBees is governed by 300 years of fear and due to that, are often wrong. Not every DBee is evil. But after 300 years of fighting the evil ones, "Better safe than sorry. Humans first" is a mindset easily understood.

"Humans First" sure. "Genocide", "Ignorance", and "Fascism" ? Less so. Justification doesn't make your actions any less evil. It just means you're not a card-carrying member of the Baby-Eaters Club.

It depends on how you define evil. (( Which there's been threads that haven't even been close to doing so.)) By INTENT, ---MOST--- of the CS are not evil. MOST of the CS military fight the Dbees because they ---honestly--- believe that they're evil alien invaders and fighting them makes their husbands and wives and children at home safer. SOME of the CS leaders are evil, perhaps even MOST CS leaders are evil, but even in their evil, they 'help' humanity as a whole. It's a tricky dichotomy. "Evil leaders using a good populace to further their power, by protecting and growing humanity, so that they have more to control over, to help humanity, to retake the planet"

I'm sure.. 100s if not 1000s of years down the road. Should the CS "Win" and there only be humans left... things would change. But as of now, they're still the underdogs fighting the 'good' fight. [/quote]

The Coalition States are, even weakened from Tolkien, still the largest single force in North America. That's not an Underdog by any definition of the word.

The individual goodness of people within a government means nothing when the government itself is doing evil. I'm not saying the People of the CS are Evil. The Government of the CS is Evil, and since they are calling the shots, that means the Coalition States are the Bad Guys.

I'm sure there were plenty of crewmen on the Death Star that were good people. In fact, there's a novel about that. Did that mean the Empire was the Good Guy? Underdogs fighting the good fight to maintain order in the Galaxy?

How about Gundam? The Cyclops Team sure were great guys. Ranba Ral was a great guy. Norris Packard, Yuri Kellarney, Lalah Sune.... Hell, Gundam is littered with the corpses (and parts thereof) of Zeon/Titans/OZ/ZAFT/Omni Enforcer/A-Laws/etc... troops who where good people. But as long as monsters like Ghiren Zabi, Murata Azrael, Ribbons Almark, and Jamitov Hyman were in charge of their factions, they were the Bad Guys.

Or how about The Avengers? Remember that guy in Germany who stood up to Loki? Would you not say he was old enough to have served in World War II? If so, which army did you think he served in?

This is what Greying means. Nice guys on the front lines doesn't keep your side from being bad.

[Pepsi Jedi]

No, that's the New German Republic. The Coalition States is only concerned with it's own power.

And all those millions of humans fighting the inhuman invaders on earth are what? A cleverly constructed ruse? The NGR IS the CS, under seige. It's not like they're friendly to Dbees. They kick them out of their nation, or at best allow them to exist as second class citizens, after they serve 20 years as cannon fodder? (( I think it's 20. I could be wrong about the number)) The Cs just doesn't use them as Cannon fodder.

The CS is NOT under siege

I know. I said, -----the NGR---- is.... the CS...., under siege.

As in the NGR and the CS are much the same but the NGR is under siege, the CS is not.

And yet the NGR, with enemies that are an actual threat,

The CS have actual threats too. They had Tolkeen, they have the Federation. They have Atlantis. They have Archie (( though they don't know about him)) They have the Republicans too. They have the Xits. They have the Pecos Empire.

the NGR leaves magic-users alone.

Eh. Kinda sorta. They're handwaved under the "The NGR never lost it's tech so it just never thought magic was a good idea. Next!"

It does not keep it's masses ignorant, and as bad as it treats D-Bees, it lets them speak out and prove themselves ("General" Rasheen, et al).

Yes it does teach more of it's population to read. And yes it does treat Dbee's badly. Rasheen was pretty much universally held as an 'oops' that made it through editing.. Largely ignored for years and years.. then when it didn't go away, they upped it a bit in the newer book. One DBee politican does not universally make DBees all good. They're treated as second class citizens, IF they put in years and years on the front lines fighting for the country against monsters. Otherwise they're escourted to the border and told to have a nice life.

Considering that they're under siege by armies of demons... being escorted to the border... what would that be....

And the whole Genocide thing, we can't forget that.

*Looks up* Ahhhhhh.......

(yet. I imagine the Federation and/or Xiciticix may change that soon). One of the things explicitly noted in Triax 2 is that the Coalition has learned what "Under Siege" really means.

Again.. I was saying the NGR is. not the CS.

And yet below...

The CS may be surrounded by people it has proclaimed to be it's enemies, but only one of those is actively hostile. The NGR on the other hand has been in an active state of war with two enemy states of comparable power for nearly a hundred years. If you were to offer to make the CS and NGR switch geographical places, the only things that would stop the Germans from saying "yes" before you finished your sentence would be national pride and the fact that they would be subjecting someone else to their situation.

Things aren't quite so bad now. the CS is sending them food and two field armies, aren't they?

Like that changes things.

Yes. It changes things. The CS is feeding the Germans and transversing the Atlantic to put boot to ass to help them out. And.. due to that, the NGR are doing great lately. The CS didn't do it single handedly, but it didn't happen till the CS pitched in.

Granted, the NGR is making things better themselves,

With aid from across the world, and from the New Navy too if memory serves?

but yeah, the opportunity to instantly be safer? You can't tell me that wouldn't be awfully tempting.

I dont' think they'd switch places like you think. Especially now that after 100 years, and with the CS help, they're actually making gains.

And you'll also note that despite being in a worse situation than the Coalition States, the NGR doesn't lie to it's people, doesn't keep them ignorant and dependent, and despite treating D-Bees badly (which is improving if slowly), does not declare them Enemies of the State just for existing.

They don't lie as much. It's been a while since I've read the two NGR books but wasn't there some lies around the assassination of the leader or something? I seem to remember it but I could be mistaken. yes they teach their people to read. As for being dependant. They're under siege.... and are now getting hand outs from the CS in the form of feeding their nation and troops to help with THEIR war.

And as for the DBee situation, again, if you're escorted to the border of a nation under siege by demonic armies.... what happens then? Doesn't that mean that the NGR throw the dbees to the slavering jaws of the gargoyles and brodkil. Killing them by proxy?

Soft sell, same thing. They move them out to the borders. They're undesireables. They're unwanted and at the very best they're allowed in, after they spend years in segregated military service. If they some how survive decades of being Cannon fodder they're allowed to exist as unwanted, undesired second hand citizens.

Not the same thing. D-Bees in the NGR have the opportunity to improve their life, in the NGR, as part of the NGR, without a sudden and violent change in regime.

ONLY if they survive years of front line service fighting demons. lol "oh we'll let you in and treat you like a slave.. if you put in 20 years on the front lines fighting demons" Isn't THAT much better. Yes the opportunity is there. You're not wrong about that. But wow, the cost.

You think they would ever have that opportunity even near the CS as long as the Proseks are alive? Or afterwards, for that matter?

not sure... The CS had a strong anti Juicer rule, till they needed juicers. It's possible that the CS might take a page from the NGR and allow 20 years of fighting on the front lines to pay off as a slave class.... if that's how the opportunity played out. The CS have embraced and LOVE their Dog boys...

If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't lie about the world's History.

Why? Because history matters when fighting aliens from other worlds? They maintain CONTROL by lieing about history. It has nothing to do with mankind's ongoing survival.

My point exactly.

But my point remains. They're fighting in a world full of aliens demons and worse. Yes the CS maintains control. To help keep it's nation strong. I don't agree with it, but it's a far cry from being against humanity.

Remember, history is written by the winners. Don't mistake a policy to maintain control of a people, to be 'evil'. All governments lie about history to some extent. Even if it's only egocentric representation and view point. And I never said 'ONLY concerned with Mankinds survival. They're concerned about other things as well. But mankind's survival is paramount.

No, the Prosek family's power is paramount.

Is it? To who? only the Proseks. Not to the Coalition. To the Coalition, MANKIND is paramount. [/quote]

To quote Louis XIV (allegedly): "L'etat, c'est moi". The Coalition States is a Facist state. That means a small group of people make the decisions for the state as a whole. And in this case they lie, withhold information, and misrepresent those facts they do let on to skew their people into blindly agreeing with them. [/quote]

All nations lie, with hold information and misrepresent facts to keep the people doing what those in power want. it's not a uniquely fascist thing. It just is more blatant because we, as players can look at it from the writers or reader's point of view.

That is why the CS went to war against Free Quebec: Prosek didn't like anyone coming out from under his sphere of influence.

The CS didn't want to lose the naval forces or the power that Quebec represented either. While 'pride' did factor in, it's not the only factor. War is never quite that simple.

Quebec didn't just decide to break off one day. It was because the Coalition as a whole, and Chi-Town (i.e. Prosek and his cronies) in particular, were trying to make them run their nation the way they wanted them too. [/quote]

Yeah.... that's kinda what a nation does.... And FQ sure didn't mind all the military power and resources that the CS poured into them, before they ducked out. If you look in the FQ book they still use alot of it, as back up or retro fit, after unveiling their new stuff, built in secret while benifiting from being a CS member state.

"For the last decade Chi-Town had begun to make unilateral policy decisions for the greater good of the Coalition States. Decisions that
free Quebec either disagreed with or which they felt removed from the decision making process; Consideration for the individual allied States seemed to have evaporated. They no longer seemed to be regarded or treated as equals, but as silent partners meant to do as they were
told. Fiercely independent, the people and government of Quebec saw this disregard as an insult and a violation of the people's civil liberties and the regional government's autonomy... ...Free Quebec was willing to work with Chi-Town and the other states, but they demanded to govern and defend themselves as "they" saw fit. To make their own laws, maintain their own unique military and live under their own
regional laws, traditions and moral sensibilities... ...Free Quebec began to see edicts like the dismantling of the Glitter Boys, supposedly in favor of a uniform (Chi-Town designed) army, as a thinly disguised plot to undermine their nation... ...a deliberate effort to limit and control the Quebec Army, making them reliant on Chi-Town for its defenses and military technology." (World Book 23: Free Quebec, pp. 12-13

Careful when you cut and paste. It forms strange breaks. Gotta fix those! lol

Yes. That's what nations do. What you're describing is the same thing as if Texas wanted all the benifits of federal taxes, federal aid, federal monies and defense of the US military, but also wanted to make laws that pertained to Texas, keep their own standing army seperate from the US, and demand to be treated better than the other 49 states in the union. If Texas ever demanded to "Govern and defend themselves as "they" Saw fir, to make their own laws, their own unique military and live under their own regional laws, traditions and moral sesibilities" It would look like a total kook.

You're either a member state of the country. Or not. FQ wanted all the benifits, but not pay the dues. Doesn't work that way.

If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't make Literacy a crime.

Good thing literacy is NOT a crime.

And for teaching this NOT crime you can get 15 Years to Death (Rifts World Book 11: Coalition War Campaign, p. 29)

Depends on what you're teaching. [/quote]

"Depends?" Read:

"These books, particularly those that focus on the pre-Rifts American and Canadian Empires and Erin Tarn's political observations
and commentaries on Emperor Prosek, young Joseph Prosek II, the Coalition's reprehensible policies of fascism, racism, genocide, rewriting of history, and its attempt to keep its people ignorant/illiterate, have branded Erin as public Enemy Number One for the last five years (and earned her a place on the top 20 list for the last 32 years)." (Rifts World Book 11: Coalition War Campaign, p. 14) [/quote]

Yeah she's a social dissident. I think it's silly that she's public enemy number one, but it still doesn't change the fact that there's a portion of the population that can read.

"Subversive Activities involving education and the dissemination of dangerous ideas: This includes rogue scholars and scientists teaching the peasant masses and illiterate citizens of the CS (even those of the middle and lower levels) how to read, write, mathematics and pre-Rifts history (or any history that differs from the official CS version). The penalty ranges from 15 years to life imprisonment, and even death." (Rifts World Book 11: Coalition War Campaign, p. 29)

Again, yes, subversive activities are not tolerated. I don't agree with it, but it doesn't change the previous fact that 14% of grunts can read 100% of officers, the upper classes and the fact that they have a university and countless people in high tech fields.

"By simply instilling uneducated people with curiosity, teaching them little things like how to read, write, and arithmetic, can sow the seeds
of destruction. This completely undermines the Coalition's carefully executed plan to keep its citizens illiterate, uneducated, and complacent.
A curious mind will always ask questions and ultimately challenge the authority before it when those questions are not satisfactorily answered.
Something the powers that be dislike." (Rifts Main Book p. 79}

Again, watch those cuts and pastes. If they catch you doing so out of a book they haven't put out in pdf you'll get in trouble. And yes, again, with out going into a thread 50 pages long, it's widly seen as impossible that SO many people in the society can't read.

Even if you go by the book over 14% can. With the entire officer corps, and many in the upper levels of society, and all those in the high tech and medical industries.

To reiterate: The CS hunts people for teaching the masses (the Military and the Elite, by definition, are not "The Masses"), and their Public Enemy #1 is a History Teacher.

It hunts people for putting out what they concider dangerous information. The non approved history. yes. And Yes. That is wrong. I don't agree with it. But it doesn't change the fact that 14% of the grunts on the line can read.

And Tarn is more than a history teacher. She's a political firebrand that openly preaches against the CS and their way of doing things. I don't think she rates all that high, but the CS does.

This carefully executed program of ignorance and complacency is all part of Emperor Prosek's master plan. A happy and complacent people
don't condemn their leaders or question what they take for granted. Furthermore, by keeping the people blissfully uneducated and illiterate,
they don't know what questions to ask or where to find answers for any questions they might raise. This creates blind faith and total dependency on their leaders and the infrastructure their leaders have created (government, military, communications system, etc.). Such dependency leads to an intense and desperate "need" to preserve everything they have, which in turn gives their leaders even more power over them — CS citizens are known to fight tooth and nail to preserve their nation and way of life. -- Rifts World Book 13: Lone Star, p. 68

Yep. Every nation does this in part, but yes. Do note the "Happy and complacent" and the fact that they fight tooth and nail to preserve their nation and way of life.

If they're happy with the way things are, and think themselves safe...... ?

Yep. Seems smart, especially when you need that kinda divotion to fight literal armies of demons and worse from the rifts.
It's not NICE to manipulate people. Karl IS evil after all. Manipulation is well with in his range of behavior.

And here's the "yet below" I mentioned before.

WHAT Literal army of Demons?

Tolkeen had liteal armies of demons in the last war. They fielded the Deamonix (however it's spelled) Against human nations. After the war, the remaining demons are even enslaving, killing and eating their former tolkeen allies. There's armies of demons in the demon nation of Calgary. And, the minion war is coming.

That's with out touching the evil Dbees, sploog, hourne, ect ect ect.

And if it's such a smart decision, why does the NGR, which we have both established is in a far worse and more immediate situation, not see the need to do so?

Because Germany didn't have to face the "Dark ages" the same way the humans in the CS did. Germany kept going with their untra tech. They never fell so low that they had to dig their way back up.

Germany 'maintained'. They didn't lose and then regain, struggeling back up to present. And for the record. The NGR has genocidal rules too. Look at their wars with the Gargoyles and brodkil ((Hey I understand it. They're demons. But it's still present.))

I will again point out, every government does this at least in part. Ever since governments were created. In this case (( With the CS)) The writers just come right out and point at it for the benefits of the 13 year olds playin' the game.

"In part". But that's the thing, isn't it? Sometimes the difference between Virtue and Deadly Sin is how much. And in 77 P.A., the Coalition went too much.

I fully agree that there are different shades of gray. The CS is sometimes very dark black. But not universally so.

If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't have a 20-year expansion plan that involves territory held by non-hostile and even Human-controlled nations (Not just Tolkeen, they plann to take over the territories of Lazlo, New Lazlo, and Free Quebec too).

Free Quebec is old news. It WAS a member. Ceeded, there was a civil war, which is now over and they're allies. Again. You're throwing 'ONLY" out there which I didn't say. But that doesn't matter. They're expansionistic. They're reclaiming earth for humans. That they're expanding is in no way counter to that. They're starting with the territory around them. Why is Lazlo, new Lazlo in there? It's between chi town and Quebec. That's just geography. You don't have a power base, then skip over 1000s of miles of land and set up another power base. You grow out from what you have. You -expand-.

Invade, you mean. That is what it's called when you -expand- into someone else's sovereign territory.

Yes. That is what it's called when you expand into someone's territory. In the case of Rifts. 90% of the planet isn't claimed. Which makes Expansion alot easier.[/quote]

And yet, there they go "expanding" into people's homes.

As for Lazlo.. well there's a problem with the "Sovereign" part. For the longest time it was called what, the place by the river? Technically most of those in Lazlo are squatting on HUMANITY's Sovereign territory. Sort of like if you found a town of illegal aliens in southern Texas on this side of the border. That town isn't suddenly it's own sovereign nation, nor is it a part of Mexico. They're squatting on US land.

in Lazlo's case, the DBees are squatting on earth.

False analogy (and a bad one to boot). Lazlo, like most large palces on Earth has a predominately Human population. Your "town" is at least 50% Good Old-Fashioned White People, and the majority of the Mexicans were born in that town (and thus on American soil), making them citizens, too.

Even if we assume they're squatting, there's a little thing called Adverse Possession, a.k.a. Squatter's Rights. Depending on how long the town has been there, that land could be theirs Legally. [/quote]

"Squatter's rights" don't pertain in planetary claims. They're actual LITERAL illegal Aliens. lol. Humanity (( in rifts earth)) has never agreed to the giving of land to Aliens. We were invaded and are repelling invasion. It's taken us 300 years to get out of the dark ages that the inital invasion has caused, but now Humanity is clawing it's way back up.

Also, unlike your analogy, the CS has no legal claim to the land Lazlo is built on.

HUMANS have legal claim. It's OUR PLANET. We never agreed to Alien colonization. We were attacked during natural disasters and forced to claw our way back to dominance on our own planet.

In a universe where everything is fair and people can just claim other planets for their own, you might have an arguement. Humanity as a whole on rifts earth highly dissagrees. They see it as OUR planet that's been invaded. Not 'Land for all'.

The Coalition States is not the Imperium of Man. They are the biggest option, not the best choice of a bad lot.

They're not the only choice by far. They are just currently in the US, the option with the best chance, at present. I don't think the CS is 100% good. Not by far. Many of their actions are horrid. Their views of DBees is governed by 300 years of fear and due to that, are often wrong. Not every DBee is evil. But after 300 years of fighting the evil ones, "Better safe than sorry. Humans first" is a mindset easily understood.

"Humans First" sure. "Genocide", "Ignorance", and "Fascism" ? Less so. Justification doesn't make your actions any less evil. It just means you're not a card-carrying member of the Baby-Eaters Club.

It depends on how you define evil. (( Which there's been threads that haven't even been close to doing so.)) By INTENT, ---MOST--- of the CS are not evil. MOST of the CS military fight the Dbees because they ---honestly--- believe that they're evil alien invaders and fighting them makes their husbands and wives and children at home safer. SOME of the CS leaders are evil, perhaps even MOST CS leaders are evil, but even in their evil, they 'help' humanity as a whole. It's a tricky dichotomy. "Evil leaders using a good populace to further their power, by protecting and growing humanity, so that they have more to control over, to help humanity, to retake the planet"

I'm sure.. 100s if not 1000s of years down the road. Should the CS "Win" and there only be humans left... things would change. But as of now, they're still the underdogs fighting the 'good' fight.

The Coalition States are, even weakened from Tolkien, still the largest single force in North America. That's not an Underdog by any definition of the word. [/quote]

They're Underdogs when compaired to all the alien invaders on the planet. Compaired to Atlantis, all of earth is an underdog. Sure if the NGR and CS and Japan, and New Navy, and England, and all the other humans on earth teamed up. They might put a DENT into the forces standing on Atlantis at any one point, but doesn't the head sploog have multiple PLANETS WORTH of back up he can rift in in short order? I think someone said 'Trillions" of troops? (( Could be wrong there. it's be a long time since i read and noted exact numbers from world book 2.))

Yes, the CS are the most powerful human nation in North America. But globally they can't take the entire planet. Heck even the Xits are going to be a problem. Xits by and large don't run. Only way to win a war with um is to kill every last one and every last egg. No easy task.

The individual goodness of people within a government means nothing when the government itself is doing evil.

I'd say it means alot. Especially when the government is securing mankind's existance on our own planet.

I'm not saying the People of the CS are Evil. The Government of the CS is Evil, and since they are calling the shots, that means the Coalition States are the Bad Guys.

No. It means the leaders of the CS are Evil. Again, the CS does alot of good. it's the stable government in NA for humanity on our own planet. They're allies with the NGR and are feeding the NGR and giving military support to another human nation in need.

Do the leaders keep the populace largely ignorant of some things to keep the society going to keep reclaiming the planet. yes. That's a bad thing, but the over all goal, human expansion. Human retaking of earth isn't an evil thing. Their METHODS sure could use some improvement. I'll totally agree there. But their goals aren't all horrendous.

I'm sure there were plenty of crewmen on the Death Star that were good people.

And all those indipendant contractors!!

In fact, there's a novel about that. Did that mean the Empire was the Good Guy? Underdogs fighting the good fight to maintain order in the Galaxy?

The Rebles were the underdogs, rebelling against the Sith Lead Empire that after thousands of years had fallen into the state it was in.

Thing is... people forget. All in all. The "Empire" for all the plublicity it gets. Wasn't really in power all that long. It's easily argued less than one generation of Empire rule in the galaxy. From the time the Twins were born till Luke was 18-24ish. A long time and it sucked, but speaking in Galactic terms.. not THAT long at all. Heck Luke's in his 60s now and still going. There's been at least three major government changes since "Return of the Jedi".

How about Gundam? The Cyclops Team sure were great guys. Ranba Ral was a great guy. Norris Packard, Yuri Kellarney, Lalah Sune.... Hell, Gundam is littered with the corpses (and parts thereof) of Zeon/Titans/OZ/ZAFT/Omni Enforcer/A-Laws/etc... troops who where good people. But as long as monsters like Ghiren Zabi, Murata Azrael, Ribbons Almark, and Jamitov Hyman were in charge of their factions, they were the Bad Guys.

Still don't know Gundam. bla bla bla is all I got out of that reference. lol Sorry.

Or how about The Avengers? Remember that guy in Germany who stood up to Loki? Would you not say he was old enough to have served in World War II? If so, which army did you think he served in?

mmmmm It's been a month or two since I saw the movie, but I think he was speakin' English? I honestly don't remember. I thought it was cool he stood up to Loki.

Or did you mean Captain A and Iron man?

This is what Greying means. Nice guys on the front lines doesn't keep your side from being bad.

nor does bad guys at the top mean you're all evil. Just like Germany in WWII. Not all Germans were evil just because Hitler and the SS were.

[camk4evr]

Um, actually, Pepsi, english isn't that precise a language (if it were we could program computers using standard written english) the way the sentence is written it can be interpretted in two ways (not that there aren't ways to make the statemnet more precise but as they weren't used...):

1) the CS relentlessly:
- hunted down pockets of resistance fighters
-executed practitioners of magic
-slaughtered D-Bee refugees by the thousands

or

2) the CS:
- relentlessly hunted down pockets of resistance fighters
- executed practitioners of magic,
- slaughtered D-Bee refugees by the thousands

No, because the comma was not after 'relentlessly'. To get the first version above the sentence would have had to be written as
"Soldiers sweep and secure the toppled cities, and roam the woodlands relentlessly, hunting down pockets of resistance fighters, executing practitioners of magic AND slaughtering Dbees refugees.."

or

"Soldiers sweep and secure the toppled cities, and roam the woodlands relentlessly: hunting down pockets of resistance fighters, executing practitioners of magic AND slaughtering Dbees refugees.."

But it's not, it's written

"Soldiers sweep and secure the toppled cities, and roam the woodlands relentlessly hunting down pockets of resistance fighters, executing practitioners of magic AND slaughtering Dbees refugees.."

Roaming the woodlands relentlessly hunting down pockets of Resistance fighters.

Executing practitioners of magic.

Slaughtering debee refugees.

You are very correct that the English language isn't 100% precise. Still that being said the sentence is not written as some are reading it. If nothing else the word "And" Sets apart the slaughter of refugees from the rest. (( The comma's do too.))


(( Just for the record. I hate spelling and grammar Nazi's. I'm not trying to be one. I'm just pointing out that the sentence isn't quite as being portrayed and hammered on by some. It doesn't say what they say that it says. If it wasn't the point of the debate, I wouldn't even care. lol but as it's the 'point' of this part, the specificity matters. ))

Actually, you're wrong. Here's a link to Wikipedia's page on Commas (specifically the section on lists).

This is the example used on the page:

Use of serial comma disambiguating:

- I spoke to the boys, Sam and Tom. – could be either the boys and Sam and Tom (I spoke to more than three people) or the boys, who are Sam and Tom (I spoke to two people)
- I spoke to the boys, Sam, and Tom. – must be the boys and Sam and Tom (I spoke to more than three people)

Omission of serial comma disambiguating:

- I thank my mother, Anne Smith, and Thomas. – could be either my mother and Anne Smith and Thomas (three people) or my mother, who is Anne Smith, and Thomas (two people)
- I thank my mother, Anne Smith and Thomas. – The writer is thanking three people: the writer's mother and Anne Smith (who is not the writer's mother) and Thomas.

here's what I quoted from page 57 of Aftermath (triple-checked to make sure I copied it correctly):

Soldiers sweep and secure the toppled cities, and roam the woodlands relentlessly hunting down pockets of resistance fighters, executing practitioners of magic, and slaughtering D-Bee refugees by the thousands.

Putting the comma after "relentlessly" would be saying
"the CS roamed the woods relentlessly (how do you roam relentlessly?)
the CS hunted down pockets of resistance fighters
the CS executed practitioners of magic
the CS slaughtered D-Bee refugees by the thousands"

or

yeah, I got nothing that makes any kind of sense.

[flatline]

The CS have actual threats too. They had Tolkeen

Really? Tolkeen was a threat to the CS?

How do you figure?

--flatline

[Mech-Viper Prime]

The CS have actual threats too. They had Tolkeen

Really? Tolkeen was a threat to the CS?

How do you figure?

--flatline

Dont know but if they willing to summon a large number of demons to serve them, then yes they are a threat.

[Giant2005]

The CS have actual threats too. They had Tolkeen

Really? Tolkeen was a threat to the CS?

How do you figure?

--flatline

Dont know but if they willing to summon a large number of demons to serve them, then yes they are a threat.

They didn't summon a large number of Demons to serve them, they summoned a large number of Demons to defend them - there is a very big difference.
One is an action that could possibly have threatening connotations, the other has none.

[flatline]

Isn't that kind of like saying that all the strangers on the street are threats to me because if I go punch one, he might try to punch me back?

--flatline

[Nightmask]

Isn't that kind of like saying that all the strangers on the street are threats to me because if I go punch one, he might try to punch me back?

--flatline

I think it's pretty well established that those defending the CS consider their victims to be deserving of their being killed because they'll fight back in order to survive, with any acts to defend themselves as justifying murdering them in their sleep (or cribs in the case of infants).