Tolkeen - Evil?

[flatline]

Isn't that kind of like saying that all the strangers on the street are threats to me because if I go punch one, he might try to punch me back?

--flatline

I think it's pretty well established that those defending the CS consider their victims to be deserving of their being killed because they'll fight back in order to survive, with any acts to defend themselves as justifying murdering them in their sleep (or cribs in the case of infants).

Let this be a lesson on the awesome power of propaganda and rhetoric.

--flatline

[Hystrix]

Isn't that kind of like saying that all the strangers on the street are threats to me because if I go punch one, he might try to punch me back?

--flatline

I think it's pretty well established that those defending the CS consider their victims to be deserving of their being killed because they'll fight back in order to survive, with any acts to defend themselves as justifying murdering them in their sleep (or cribs in the case of infants).

Let this be a lesson on the awesome power of propaganda and rhetoric.

--flatline

Hey guys. IMHO, you are crossing from a Rifts discussion to a Sound Off debate. I am NOT a Mod, obviously, but could we please stick to the topic, not you opinion about other political beleifs?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

The CS have actual threats too. They had Tolkeen

Really? Tolkeen was a threat to the CS?

How do you figure?

--flatline

Dont know but if they willing to summon a large number of demons to serve them, then yes they are a threat.

They didn't summon a large number of Demons to serve them, they summoned a large number of Demons to defend them - there is a very big difference.
One is an action that could possibly have threatening connotations, the other has none.

Did they serve of their free will?

[Lenwen]

Did they serve of their free will?

Yes they did .. matter of fact the book goes into GREAT detail, of how the daemonix have never felt this kind of feelings before the beings who free'd them actually see them as equals .. and that they (daemonix) actually feel loyal to them because of it, so they in fact fight on their own accord to protect the City/state of Tolkeen.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The CS have actual threats too. They had Tolkeen

Really? Tolkeen was a threat to the CS?

How do you figure?

--flatline

Dont know but if they willing to summon a large number of demons to serve them, then yes they are a threat.

They didn't summon a large number of Demons to serve them, they summoned a large number of Demons to defend them - there is a very big difference.
One is an action that could possibly have threatening connotations, the other has none.

Did they serve of their free will?

Depends on how you define it. Tolkeen busted um out of some sort of Demon prison that they were thrown in, becasue even other demons thought they were punks. Then outfitted them with technowizard devices and let them attack and kill humans. In that, they 'served'. If you bust a demon out of jail, give him magic technology and 'let' him fight and kill humans he's pretty good to go.

With all of that, they had to be segregated from the OTHER demons fighting for tolkeen because they would cause fights with in the ranks. They'd try and bully other demons and the other demons wouldn't take it from the things they saw as lessor... .or the other demons still saw them as lessor and the Deamonix were upjumped and would fight. I forget exactly which, but yeah. They didn't get along with others either.

They didn't get along with non demons either. I think there's a story in the cybernight book (Could be elsewhere?) where a Cyberknight fighting FOR tolkeen against the CS tried to stop a demon from doing demony things (( not sure exactly what, it's been a few months since I've read it)) and they killed the cyberknight.


Then of course, tolkeen loses and the Deamonix, who some like to make out as wonderfully loyal and stuff (( Hulllllo.... Armies of -demons- lol...)) Fled in mass, and Turned on Tolkeen. As noted previously in this thread, the demons and monsters tolkeen had on it's side, get almost a page in after math talking about how they're now HUNTING tolkeen refugees and stuff, along with tolkeens own retribution squads.

So it really depends on how you define it. Did they 'serve of their free will'. Yeah. Kinda... in the same way a prison full of Skin heads would 'Serve' if you were in a battle with Israel and you busted them out of jail and gave them machine guns. They'd 'serve' as long as it was fun to kill the jews, but when you start to lose the war you're on your own and oh by the way you're a target now too. I mean they're skinheads after all. (( Not relating CS to the Jews, or Jews to the CS. Was just pointing out an evil group busted out of jail to fight a thing they hate and equipped with weapons to do so, would do so as long as it was easy and 'fun' to them))

There are some CS haters that just totally justify bringing demonic armies to earth to fight against humanity. "The Ends Justify the means" while hating the CS for the same sort of mentality. They'll also tell you that they HAD to summon forth ARMIES of demons to fight humanity. When in fact we've illustrated repeatedly there were other options. The easiest, "To not summon armies of demons" but by that point tolkeen's Leaders were just as evil as the CS leaders they hate. They'll also ignore the intrinsically evil nature of demons, and the horrifically evil act of bringing them to earth to battle humans. (( An act which horrified ... even their allies. but hey.)).

To be honest the thread has turned into a "Nu uh!" "Yes huh!" "NU UH!!" "YES HUH!!!" sorta thing and I'm gettin' bored.

[Sureshot]

To be honest imo both sides are both wrong and right . Both sides of the SOT were evil and to a certain extent at least in their minds fought for a noble cause. Both CS cause and the Tolkien started out for a good purpose and in the end was anything but imo. Both sides commited atrocities and sometimes noble deeds. Either way imo both sides of the SOT probably did not expect what would happen.

[Nightmask]

To be honest imo both sides are both wrong and right . Both sides of the SOT were evil and to a certain extent at least in their minds fought for a noble cause. Both CS cause and the Tolkien started out for a good purpose and in the end was anything but imo. Both sides commited atrocities and sometimes noble deeds. Either way imo both sides of the SOT probably did not expect what would happen.

The problem with that is both sides weren't so simplistically evil, as one group keeps insisting. Tolkeen was clearly good and became evil due to the war and the efforts to protect everything that mattered to them. Tolkeen wasn't an 'evil empire' which the CS has always been, it was a good empire that slid into evil by the choices made to fight back.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

To be honest imo both sides are both wrong and right . Both sides of the SOT were evil and to a certain extent at least in their minds fought for a noble cause. Both CS cause and the Tolkien started out for a good purpose and in the end was anything but imo. Both sides commited atrocities and sometimes noble deeds. Either way imo both sides of the SOT probably did not expect what would happen.

The problem with that is both sides weren't so simplistically evil, as one group keeps insisting. Tolkeen was clearly good and became evil due to the war and the efforts to protect everything that mattered to them. Tolkeen wasn't an 'evil empire' which the CS has always been, it was a good empire that slid into evil by the choices made to fight back.

No because good people summon demons just help poor little guy , because demons are just misunderstood

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Another example of what I mentioned earlier.

[Lenwen]

To be honest imo both sides are both wrong and right . Both sides of the SOT were evil and to a certain extent at least in their minds fought for a noble cause. Both CS cause and the Tolkien started out for a good purpose and in the end was anything but imo. Both sides commited atrocities and sometimes noble deeds. Either way imo both sides of the SOT probably did not expect what would happen.

The problem with that is both sides weren't so simplistically evil, as one group keeps insisting. Tolkeen was clearly good and became evil due to the war and the efforts to protect everything that mattered to them. Tolkeen wasn't an 'evil empire' which the CS has always been, it was a good empire that slid into evil by the choices made to fight back.

No because good people summon demons just help poor little guy , because demons are just misunderstood

So whats that make the Coalition .. who is lead by a leadership who is as evil as any demon ..

And the head of which is a good deal more evil then some demons actually are themselves !!

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Another example of what I mentioned earlier.

Please stick to the topic I know it hard to do but here is a helpful reminder of what the topic is.

I've been doing some research and I am perplexed. I've participated in many discussions regarding the CS/Tolkeen war and many have cited the reason for Tolkeen's defeat was that the evil practitioners of magic couldn't work together and pretty much fell apart from within.

However, my current research keeps indicating that prior to the conflict with the CS, Tolkeen was portrayed as a center of peace and learning. I don't usually associate evil with peace and learning (my references are the many journal entries from Erin Tarn). Can anyone identify when Tolkeen shifted from good to bad? I'd appreciate actual book references and not opinion or conjecture.

Your welcome

[Nightmask]

To be honest imo both sides are both wrong and right . Both sides of the SOT were evil and to a certain extent at least in their minds fought for a noble cause. Both CS cause and the Tolkien started out for a good purpose and in the end was anything but imo. Both sides commited atrocities and sometimes noble deeds. Either way imo both sides of the SOT probably did not expect what would happen.

The problem with that is both sides weren't so simplistically evil, as one group keeps insisting. Tolkeen was clearly good and became evil due to the war and the efforts to protect everything that mattered to them. Tolkeen wasn't an 'evil empire' which the CS has always been, it was a good empire that slid into evil by the choices made to fight back.

No because good people summon demons just help poor little guy , because demons are just misunderstood

Good people do desperate things all the time, and again the demons were summoned well into the war as the atrocities stacked up from the CS's behavior, and there's NOTHING about the CS that one can say was them just being misunderstood good people. They even had their own demons (skelebots) that they had 'summoned' long before the war and were programmed effectively as diabolic evil, something those who insist the CS is just a misunderstood good guy likes to always pretend doesn't exist. Your opponent unleashes demonic evil (skelebots) against you, you see the people you care about and love dying at their hands, and yet you're actually going to insist 'oh no you're just always been evil because you summoned some demons to protect your family instead of just dying'? That's just absurd. They were good people who out of desperation and loss chose to use tools like demons against an opponent that was already demonic in nature, feeling at least if they lived they could atone for resorting to evil measures to protect those they love.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

To be honest imo both sides are both wrong and right . Both sides of the SOT were evil and to a certain extent at least in their minds fought for a noble cause. Both CS cause and the Tolkien started out for a good purpose and in the end was anything but imo. Both sides commited atrocities and sometimes noble deeds. Either way imo both sides of the SOT probably did not expect what would happen.

The problem with that is both sides weren't so simplistically evil, as one group keeps insisting. Tolkeen was clearly good and became evil due to the war and the efforts to protect everything that mattered to them. Tolkeen wasn't an 'evil empire' which the CS has always been, it was a good empire that slid into evil by the choices made to fight back.

No because good people summon demons just help poor little guy , because demons are just misunderstood

So whats that make the Coalition .. who is lead by a leadership who is as evil as any demon ..

And the head of which is a good deal more evil then some demons actually are themselves !!

Well then, I ask for proof of Karl Prosek is evil as a demon. As for the coalition , it depends on the person living in rifts earth and their experiences in life, if you are a human who has been victimized by non-humans all your life, then your viewpoint will be different then someone from Tolkeen.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

To be honest imo both sides are both wrong and right . Both sides of the SOT were evil and to a certain extent at least in their minds fought for a noble cause. Both CS cause and the Tolkien started out for a good purpose and in the end was anything but imo. Both sides commited atrocities and sometimes noble deeds. Either way imo both sides of the SOT probably did not expect what would happen.

The problem with that is both sides weren't so simplistically evil, as one group keeps insisting. Tolkeen was clearly good and became evil due to the war and the efforts to protect everything that mattered to them. Tolkeen wasn't an 'evil empire' which the CS has always been, it was a good empire that slid into evil by the choices made to fight back.

No because good people summon demons just help poor little guy , because demons are just misunderstood

Good people do desperate things all the time, and again the demons were summoned well into the war as the atrocities stacked up from the CS's behavior, and there's NOTHING about the CS that one can say was them just being misunderstood good people. They even had their own demons (skelebots) that they had 'summoned' long before the war and were programmed effectively as diabolic evil, something those who insist the CS is just a misunderstood good guy likes to always pretend doesn't exist. Your opponent unleashes demonic evil (skelebots) against you, you see the people you care about and love dying at their hands, and yet you're actually going to insist 'oh no you're just always been evil because you summoned some demons to protect your family instead of just dying'? That's just absurd. They were good people who out of desperation and loss chose to use tools like demons against an opponent that was already demonic in nature, feeling at least if they lived they could atone for resorting to evil measures to protect those they love.

Like you said "good people do desperate things all the time" also applies to the coalition soldiers who joined up with the coalition to defend their families against mages who summon demons to do their bidding.

[Lenwen]

Well then, I ask for proof of Karl Prosek is evil as a demon. As for the coalition , it depends on the person living in rifts earth and their experiences in life, if you are a human who has been victimized by non-humans all your life, then your viewpoint will be different then someone from Tolkeen.

Easy nuff ..

Prosek is a Diabolic alignment.

There are demons who have Abberant as their alignments ..

Ergo ..

Prosek is in fact more evil then some demons ..

[Killer Cyborg]

Prosek is a Diabolic alignment.

There are demons who have Abberant as their alignments ..

Ergo ..

Prosek is in fact more evil then some demons ..

THAT is some solid logic.
I wish you'd post like that more often.

[Nightmask]

To be honest imo both sides are both wrong and right . Both sides of the SOT were evil and to a certain extent at least in their minds fought for a noble cause. Both CS cause and the Tolkien started out for a good purpose and in the end was anything but imo. Both sides commited atrocities and sometimes noble deeds. Either way imo both sides of the SOT probably did not expect what would happen.

The problem with that is both sides weren't so simplistically evil, as one group keeps insisting. Tolkeen was clearly good and became evil due to the war and the efforts to protect everything that mattered to them. Tolkeen wasn't an 'evil empire' which the CS has always been, it was a good empire that slid into evil by the choices made to fight back.

No because good people summon demons just help poor little guy , because demons are just misunderstood

Good people do desperate things all the time, and again the demons were summoned well into the war as the atrocities stacked up from the CS's behavior, and there's NOTHING about the CS that one can say was them just being misunderstood good people. They even had their own demons (skelebots) that they had 'summoned' long before the war and were programmed effectively as diabolic evil, something those who insist the CS is just a misunderstood good guy likes to always pretend doesn't exist. Your opponent unleashes demonic evil (skelebots) against you, you see the people you care about and love dying at their hands, and yet you're actually going to insist 'oh no you're just always been evil because you summoned some demons to protect your family instead of just dying'? That's just absurd. They were good people who out of desperation and loss chose to use tools like demons against an opponent that was already demonic in nature, feeling at least if they lived they could atone for resorting to evil measures to protect those they love.

Like you said "good people do desperate things all the time" also applies to the coalition soldiers who joined up with the coalition to defend their families against mages who summon demons to do their bidding.

Too bad you keep wording that as if Tolkeen was always calling up demons and generally engaging in evil spellcasting instead of that being a later response to the already demonic behavior on the part of the Coalition. That and making it out as if the CS soldiers casually burning down non-combatant beings is in the same category as someone just being a good guy doing something desperate instead of an evil guy murdering innocents. Sorry but no, Tolkeen was not the Federation of Magic, it wasn't evil, it wasn't a demon-summoning nation of magic-users and summoning up a demon and going 'hey those guys over there just murdered my village kill them for me' is no different than using any other mobile weapon to deal with an enemy. Whatever alignment your weapon has if any is quite irrelevant, particularly when it's a weapon you're using AFTER someone's tried to kill you or has killed your friends and family and only acquired AFTER someone tossed that fusion block into your living room and killed your family just because they existed.

[Nightmask]

Well then, I ask for proof of Karl Prosek is evil as a demon. As for the coalition , it depends on the person living in rifts earth and their experiences in life, if you are a human who has been victimized by non-humans all your life, then your viewpoint will be different then someone from Tolkeen.

Easy nuff ..

Prosek is a Diabolic alignment.

There are demons who have Abberant as their alignments ..

Ergo ..

Prosek is in fact more evil then some demons ..

Prosek's the sort that some demons would admire for his masterful way of duping the masses and spreading chaos and evil, because his actions and encouragement via the CS generates evil on a massive scale, a level that evil-loving demons would envy.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Well then, I ask for proof of Karl Prosek is evil as a demon. As for the coalition , it depends on the person living in rifts earth and their experiences in life, if you are a human who has been victimized by non-humans all your life, then your viewpoint will be different then someone from Tolkeen.

Easy nuff ..

Prosek is a Diabolic alignment.

There are demons who have Abberant as their alignments ..

Ergo ..

Prosek is in fact more evil then some demons ..

Well then everybody not good can be classified as evil as a demon if you really want to go in that direction.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Too bad you keep wording that as if Tolkeen was always calling up demons and generally engaging in evil spellcasting instead of that being a later response to the already demonic behavior on the part of the Coalition. That and making it out as if the CS soldiers casually burning down non-combatant beings is in the same category as someone just being a good guy doing something desperate instead of an evil guy murdering innocents. Sorry but no, Tolkeen was not the Federation of Magic, it wasn't evil, it wasn't a demon-summoning nation of magic-users and summoning up a demon and going 'hey those guys over there just murdered my village kill them for me' is no different than using any other mobile weapon to deal with an enemy. Whatever alignment your weapon has if any is quite irrelevant, particularly when it's a weapon you're using AFTER someone's tried to kill you or has killed your friends and family and only acquired AFTER someone tossed that fusion block into your living room and killed your family just because they existed.

so non-magical weapons have alignments now?
But Tolkeen summoning and an using demons is an evil act, no matter what excuse you try to use to defend their acts, because good guys don't do that, and just adds to show how far Tolkeen went from a peaceful kingdom to a kingdom no better then what they were fighting, Tolkeen was a no winner sitution with the coalition, everybody saw it , lord coake saw it, and don't want his knights apart of it, and how way thru the war the knights understood why lord coake didn't want his knights tainted by this war, when every body who still has morals and were defending Tolkeen because it's was the right think to do, now leave in mass, because they realized how bad it truly , how far some of the leaders of Tolkeen have fell down the moral scale.

The "deal" with the black faeries, brodkil and some other pg 140 sot1
Then the ones who were enslaved. elementals, lesser demons and indepentdent minded creatures who were summoned, enslaved and force to serve Tolkeen forces by shifters,warlocks and other powerful beings

Sot1 pg139 under a gathering of evil.

This only justifies the coalition's fear and proves Tolkeen to be a genuine threat to their nation, furthermore it exemplifies Tolkeen's flow , but quickly accelerating slide from moral high-ground into corruption and evil.

[Lenwen]

But Tolkeen summoning and an using demons is an evil act, no matter what excuse you try to use to defend their act

I will never understand how people condemn Tolkeen for summoning monsters and demons.. To defend itself..

As opposed saying how evil the coalition was for invading a known peaceful place of higher learning..

[Mech-Viper Prime]

But Tolkeen summoning and an using demons is an evil act, no matter what excuse you try to use to defend their act

I will never understand how people condemn Tolkeen for summoning monsters and demons.. To defend itself..

As opposed saying how evil the coalition was for invading a known peaceful place of higher learning..

This isn't about the coalition being evil. It's about Tolkeen but since you missed part of it.
The "deal" with the black faeries, brodkil and some other pg 140 sot1
Then the ones who were enslaved. elementals, lesser demons and indepentdent minded creatures who were summoned, enslaved and force to serve Tolkeen forces by shifters,warlocks and other powerful beings

Sot1 pg139 under a gathering of evil.

This only justifies the coalition's fear and proves Tolkeen to be a genuine threat to their nation, furthermore it exemplifies Tolkeen's flow , but quickly accelerating slide from moral high-ground into corruption and evil.

[Lenwen]

But Tolkeen summoning and an using demons is an evil act, no matter what excuse you try to use to defend their act

I will never understand how people condemn Tolkeen for summoning monsters and demons.. To defend itself..

As opposed saying how evil the coalition was for invading a known peaceful place of higher learning..

This isn't about the coalition being evil. It's about Tolkeen but since you missed part of it.
The "deal" with the black faeries, brodkil and some other pg 140 sot1
Then the ones who were enslaved. elementals, lesser demons and indepentdent minded creatures who were summoned, enslaved and force to serve Tolkeen forces by shifters,warlocks and other powerful beings

Sot1 pg139 under a gathering of evil.

This only justifies the coalition's fear and proves Tolkeen to be a genuine threat to their nation, furthermore it exemplifies Tolkeen's flow , but quickly accelerating slide from moral high-ground into corruption and evil.

Actually that happened during the war. Not prior to the war. You can not use something that happened after the invasion ...


To try to defend the invasion ...


Your not making any sense at all now...

[Mech-Viper Prime]

But Tolkeen summoning and an using demons is an evil act, no matter what excuse you try to use to defend their act

I will never understand how people condemn Tolkeen for summoning monsters and demons.. To defend itself..

As opposed saying how evil the coalition was for invading a known peaceful place of higher learning..

This isn't about the coalition being evil. It's about Tolkeen but since you missed part of it.
The "deal" with the black faeries, brodkil and some other pg 140 sot1
Then the ones who were enslaved. elementals, lesser demons and indepentdent minded creatures who were summoned, enslaved and force to serve Tolkeen forces by shifters,warlocks and other powerful beings

Sot1 pg139 under a gathering of evil.

This only justifies the coalition's fear and proves Tolkeen to be a genuine threat to their nation, furthermore it exemplifies Tolkeen's flow , but quickly accelerating slide from moral high-ground into corruption and evil.

Actually that happened during the war. Not prior to the war. You can not use something that happened after the invasion ...


To try to defend the invasion ...


Your not making any sense at all now...

Really then prove it page please.

[Witchcraft]

Hey, I punched you and then you kicked me. You're mean because you kick people so I should shoot you.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

King creed was cutting dealing demonic beings and evil mages in 100 pa

Chalk's folly 104 pa

War starts spring 106

[Sureshot]

I have said it again yet sometimes I wonder if some posters even know what fascism means let alone a fascist government like the CS. And they are even though some like to portray them with the same type of governemnt that the US has with the number filed off. Yes they are more evil things than the CS. While I don't think the entire CS is completely rotten to the core and has some good people means nothing because those in power are evil, power hungry and willing to do anything to hold on to that power. Absolutrly anything. If it means provoking a war with Tolkien to do so they will and did. If tha is not a truly evil act then I don't know what some consider to be a evil act. I'm not saying that Tolkien is not evil. And made some poor moral choices yet the CS seems always imo to get a free pass for their actions. I'ts not okay to summon demons yet it's okay to provoke a unessary war of power to get more power. It's okay for the CS to male more and more powerful weapons and field them yet Tolkine was expected to not do the same.

Even though after rereading the last SOT book have to wonder why the hell would KS write the almost the entire leadership of Tolkien as being evil from the start. some were good aglignments and fell from grace so to speak because of the war. Yet how the hell did all thes predominalty evil people take over what was at first a good organization. Without anyone noticing. Wait I remember Kevin is loves the whole "rotten apple syndrome". Anyway enough digressing. It's alos interesting when people say "they could have just left. by that logic it means if I have enough people and weapons I can come into your homes and claim it for my own. After all you can just leave. Not to mention funny how it was okay for the CS to stay and defend themselves from Dunscons Federation of Magic attack yet it's not okay for Tolkien to defend themselves. Once again according to the "they could have just left" side the CS should have left Chi-Town too.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I have said it again yet sometimes I wonder if some posters even know what fascism means let alone a fascist government like the CS. And they are even though some like to portray them with the same type of governemnt that the US has with the number filed off. Yes they are more evil things than the CS. While I don't think the entire CS is completely rotten to the core and has some good people means nothing because those in power are evil, power hungry and willing to do anything to hold on to that power. Absolutrly anything. If it means provoking a war with Tolkien to do so they will and did. If tha is not a truly evil act then I don't know what some consider to be a evil act. I'm not saying that Tolkien is not evil. And made some poor moral choices yet the CS seems always imo to get a free pass for their actions. I'ts not okay to summon demons yet it's okay to provoke a unessary war of power to get more power. It's okay for the CS to male more and more powerful weapons and field them yet Tolkine was expected to not do the same.

Even though after rereading the last SOT book have to wonder why the hell would KS write the almost the entire leadership of Tolkien as being evil from the start. some were good aglignments and fell from grace so to speak because of the war. Yet how the hell did all thes predominalty evil people take over what was at first a good organization. Without anyone noticing. Wait I remember Kevin is loves the whole "rotten apple syndrome". Anyway enough digressing. It's alos interesting when people say "they could have just left. by that logic it means if I have enough people and weapons I can come into your homes and claim it for my own. After all you can just leave. Not to mention funny how it was okay for the CS to stay and defend themselves from Dunscons Federation of Magic attack yet it's not okay for Tolkien to defend themselves. Once again according to the "they could have just left" side the CS should have left Chi-Town too.

its all causes and effort, if dunscon never overreacted and launch the attack, joe Prosek would never came to power , hence the coalition would have never been formed, Karl may have never became emperor, and the war with Tolkeen would never happened, who knows what north America would look like.

[Lenwen]

.
the CS seems always imo to get a free pass for their actions. I'ts not okay to summon demons yet it's okay to provoke a unessary war of power to get more power. It's okay for the CS to male more and more powerful weapons and field them yet Tolkine was expected to not do the same.

This is the crux of the entire situation..


How dare anyone field a military and use it against the coalition... In response to an invasion !!!!

[Sureshot]

its all causes and effort, if dunscon never overreacted and launch the attack, joe Prosek would never came to power , hence the coalition would have never been formed, Karl may have never became emperor, and the war with Tolkeen would never happened, who knows what north America would look like.

Well they could have run away and choose instead to fight Dunscon.

If the CS had lef Tolkien alone and if they were written as having a governing body that actually was filled with members that had good alignements than the SOT would not have happened on the first place. You can't on one hand say the CS was justified in defending themselves from Dunscon because he oveereacted when the CS not only overreacted those in power were gunning to take down Tolkien and were planning to do so for years. See that is why some like myself say the CS gets a free pass. It's okay for the CS to retliate if someone attacks them yet it's not okay for anyone else to to attack the CS if the CS attacks first.

While I don't agree with Dunscon attacking the CS I still don't blame the guy for overreacting. Going to a supposed meeting of equals to be told pretty much "can you stop being a magic user". I would be insulted and offended too.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well then, I ask for proof of Karl Prosek is evil as a demon. As for the coalition , it depends on the person living in rifts earth and their experiences in life, if you are a human who has been victimized by non-humans all your life, then your viewpoint will be different then someone from Tolkeen.

Easy nuff ..

Prosek is a Diabolic alignment.

There are demons who have Abberant as their alignments ..

Ergo ..

Prosek is in fact more evil then some demons ..

Prosek's the sort that some demons would admire for his masterful way of duping the masses and spreading chaos and evil, because his actions and encouragement via the CS generates evil on a massive scale, a level that evil-loving demons would envy.

For the record. ONE Prosek is Aberrant as well. So it could be said that SOME demons are of 'lower' alignment on the list than Some Prosek's and SOME Proseks' are lower on the alignment than SOME demons.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I have said it again yet sometimes I wonder if some posters even know what fascism means let alone a fascist government like the CS. And they are even though some like to portray them with the same type of governemnt that the US has with the number filed off. Yes they are more evil things than the CS. While I don't think the entire CS is completely rotten to the core and has some good people means nothing because those in power are evil, power hungry and willing to do anything to hold on to that power. Absolutrly anything. If it means provoking a war with Tolkien to do so they will and did. If tha is not a truly evil act then I don't know what some consider to be a evil act. I'm not saying that Tolkien is not evil. And made some poor moral choices yet the CS seems always imo to get a free pass for their actions. I'ts not okay to summon demons yet it's okay to provoke a unessary war of power to get more power. It's okay for the CS to male more and more powerful weapons and field them yet Tolkine was expected to not do the same.

Even though after rereading the last SOT book have to wonder why the hell would KS write the almost the entire leadership of Tolkien as being evil from the start. some were good aglignments and fell from grace so to speak because of the war. Yet how the hell did all thes predominalty evil people take over what was at first a good organization. Without anyone noticing. Wait I remember Kevin is loves the whole "rotten apple syndrome". Anyway enough digressing. It's alos interesting when people say "they could have just left. by that logic it means if I have enough people and weapons I can come into your homes and claim it for my own. After all you can just leave. Not to mention funny how it was okay for the CS to stay and defend themselves from Dunscons Federation of Magic attack yet it's not okay for Tolkien to defend themselves. Once again according to the "they could have just left" side the CS should have left Chi-Town too.

Just a few points.
1) point of fact. People DID notice tolkeen falling to Evil. Tarn comments on it after they threw her out on her ear for telling them to get out of dodge and not fight.

2) The CS was being attacked by magic and monsters and fought back. (When the fed attacked them)) The CS at the time DID have magic in their ranks. The CS did NOT stoop to summoning Demonic armies to defend itself. At the time the Fed wasn't so much bigger that a battle was a forgone conclusion for the other side.

3) The attack on the CS was an attack on Humanity on the human's planet.


in Tolkeens case, Yes, the CS was the aggressor. Yes that was mean/bad. Yes the CS did gear up over a decade to go after tolkeen. That being said, the CS was many times bigger than Tolkeen, and everyone, friend or foe of Tolkeen saw it as an impossible fight and urged evacuation and getting out of the way of the CS fist. NO... that doesn't make the CS's the 'good guys'. It just makes Tolkeen rather stupid. Then, in Tolkeens efforts, to militerize up to match the CS. They lost the high ground. Their leaders devolved into evil (( and pretty quick too I might add)) They brokered deals with demons and monsters, they found and brought forth armies of Demons onto earth to fight mankind. (( and inspite of what folks will tell ya, they didn't do that mid stream. Read up on the Deamonix. They had to be outfitted with technowizard devices to move around on earth. it's not like Tolkeen just had fishy demon fitting technowizardy by the thousands sitting around. That stuff had to be made and implanted/put on the demons. You don't do that mid battle ))

So while many thing the CS is evil... they were doing what they've always done. Expand the Human power base. Tolkeen how ever. Started good, and in the LEAD UP to the war, dove down into evil, and past even what the CS had done. As pointed out, when attacked by the Fed, the CS, even at their worst, never summoned forth armies of demons and monsters onto earth. They dug in and made do with what they had.

Arguing who's "MORE EVIL" is silly. Noone will agree on that. But the CS going in, as they did, and Tolkeen starting as "high" as they were then falling so low as to bypass the CS. Is much more tragic and drastic. That can't really be argued. When a bad guy does bad things, it's bad, but not a suprise. When Super man does bad things everyone is shocked and appaled.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

its all causes and effort, if dunscon never overreacted and launch the attack, joe Prosek would never came to power , hence the coalition would have never been formed, Karl may have never became emperor, and the war with Tolkeen would never happened, who knows what north America would look like.

Well they could have run away and choose instead to fight Dunscon.

If the CS had lef Tolkien alone and if they were written as having a governing body that actually was filled with members that had good alignements than the SOT would not have happened on the first place. You can't on one hand say the CS was justified in defending themselves from Dunscon because he oveereacted when the CS not only overreacted those in power were gunning to take down Tolkien and were planning to do so for years. See that is why some like myself say the CS gets a free pass. It's okay for the CS to retliate if someone attacks them yet it's not okay for anyone else to to attack the CS if the CS attacks first.

While I don't agree with Dunscon attacking the CS I still don't blame the guy for overreacting. Going to a supposed meeting of equals to be told pretty much "can you stop being a magic user". I would be insulted and offended too.

Well this topic isn't about what ifs

[Sureshot]

You make some goos points PJ yet I see you don't give the Cs the option to run away. So why should Tolkien be told to run away when the CS is supposed to stay and defend their homes. Sure yeah humanity biggest hope and all that yet the Tolkine was the same thing except for magic users. Dunscon army was pretty powerful too and if I remember correctly outnumber the CS. So why does the Cs get the free pass on being fools for not running away yet Tolken not only has to run away should have away. I just keep seeing more and more reason made to give free passes to the CS. I get their popular and the fanbase love them to the point of apologizing and giveing them free passes on everything. Why should it just be the CS and no one else that receives such immunity. If anything it's not the CS imo that is humanity greatest hope it's Lazlo.

[Sureshot]

Well this topic isn't about what ifs

No but it sure as hell is about finding ways to give the Cs free passes on everything and anything and not having the CS any rules yet everyone else on Rifts Earth has to.

[Lenwen]

Well this topic isn't about what ifs

No but it sure as hell is about finding ways to give the Cs free passes on everything and anything and not having the CS any rules yet everyone else on Rifts Earth has to.

100% spot on ..


And there can be no deny'ing this .. after reading many of the posts .. from the fans of the coalition..

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Well this topic isn't about what ifs

No but it sure as hell is about finding ways to give the Cs free passes on everything and anything and not having the CS any rules yet everyone else on Rifts Earth has to.

Take it up with KS , it's canon.

[Lenwen]

King creed was cutting dealing demonic beings and evil mages in 100 pa

Chalk's folly 104 pa

War starts spring 106

Do me a favor , please list the exact year , in which the Coalition military tried to encircle Tolkeen .. an cut them off from the rest of the world .


Its in CWC ..

[Mech-Viper Prime]

King creed was cutting dealing demonic beings and evil mages in 100 pa

Chalk's folly 104 pa

War starts spring 106

Do me a favor , please list the exact year , in which the Coalition military tried to encircle Tolkeen .. an cut them off from the rest of the world .


Its in CWC ..

If you know where it then post it

[Lenwen]

King creed was cutting dealing demonic beings and evil mages in 100 pa

Chalk's folly 104 pa

War starts spring 106

Do me a favor , please list the exact year , in which the Coalition military tried to encircle Tolkeen .. an cut them off from the rest of the world .


Its in CWC ..

If you know where it then post it

I would if I had the book with me. Its the reason I asked you an told you where to find it..

[Mech-Viper Prime]

King creed was cutting dealing demonic beings and evil mages in 100 pa

Chalk's folly 104 pa

War starts spring 106

Do me a favor , please list the exact year , in which the Coalition military tried to encircle Tolkeen .. an cut them off from the rest of the world .


Its in CWC ..

If you know where it then post it

I would if I had the book with me. Its the reason I asked you an told you where to find it..

Well sot1 has it listed as the coalition did send a attack force in 103 pa that is when the siege begins and then chalk's folly in 104 does say chalk was sick and tired of the encircle and "contained" and attacked and got made short work of, so no free pass there for the CS there, so I have to say 103 pa ,so 3 years after they made deals with demons and summon and enslaved whoever else they could.

[Lenwen]

King creed was cutting dealing demonic beings and evil mages in 100 pa

Chalk's folly 104 pa

War starts spring 106

Do me a favor , please list the exact year , in which the Coalition military tried to encircle Tolkeen .. an cut them off from the rest of the world .


Its in CWC ..

If you know where it then post it

I would if I had the book with me. Its the reason I asked you an told you where to find it..

Well sot1 has it listed as the coalition did send a attack force in 103 pa that is when the siege begins and then chalk's folly in 104 does say chalk was sick and tired of the encircle and "contained" and attacked and got made short work of, so no free pass there for the CS there, so I have to say 103 pa ,so 3 years after they made deals with demons and summon and enslaved whoever else they could.

I believe the date was earlier then even 103. And if I had the book here with me ( I have it high lighted) I could quote it verbatium for you .

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Well only thing I found was on page22 of CWC, and it's not much talks about coalition on the borders and"contain" supplies , mercs or some other stuff. But nothing of encircling Tolkeen in circle of death, and given chalk's folly was more a massacre then a fight, with the equipment you claim show after the war started.

[Lenwen]

Well only thing I found was on page22 of CWC, and it's not much talks about coalition on the borders and"contain" supplies , mercs or some other stuff.

Yep thats it. And that happened years prior to the war .. CS was actively trying to cut Tolkeen off ..

Prior to Tolkeen summoning Demons or monsters or anything of the nature to defend itself.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

There are numerous references to CS policy toward Tolkeen to be found in the CWC book. Mentions of stationing troops along the kingdom's borders to prevent aid or reinforcement, cutting off supply lines years prior, disruption of communications, conquering neighboring allied kingdoms to deny support, military units being sent on search and destroy missions against the kingdom for up to six years before the book's "current" date of 105 PA, and so on.

By 99 PA, the writing was clearly on the wall.

[Nightmask]

There are numerous references to CS policy toward Tolkeen to be found in the CWC book. Mentions of stationing troops along the kingdom's borders to prevent aid or reinforcement, cutting off supply lines years prior, disruption of communications, conquering neighboring allied kingdoms to deny support, military units being sent on search and destroy missions against the kingdom for up to six years before the book's "current" date of 105 PA, and so on.

By 99 PA, the writing was clearly on the wall.

Yes it was pretty obvious to Tolkeen what was coming, either from conventional intelligence gathering or use of more supernatural means, and acted like any reasonable nation does to protect its citizens from unwarranted aggression.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Well only thing I found was on page22 of CWC, and it's not much talks about coalition on the borders and"contain" supplies , mercs or some other stuff.

Yep thats it. And that happened years prior to the war .. CS was actively trying to cut Tolkeen off ..

Prior to Tolkeen summoning Demons or monsters or anything of the nature to defend itself.

Yup that platoon of soldiers had Tolkeen surrounded in a circle of death.

[Pepsi Jedi]

You make some goos points PJ yet I see you don't give the Cs the option to run away. So why should Tolkien be told to run away when the CS is supposed to stay and defend their homes. Sure yeah humanity biggest hope and all that yet the Tolkine was the same thing except for magic users. Dunscon army was pretty powerful too and if I remember correctly outnumber the CS. So why does the Cs get the free pass on being fools for not running away yet Tolken not only has to run away should have away. I just keep seeing more and more reason made to give free passes to the CS. I get their popular and the fanbase love them to the point of apologizing and giveing them free passes on everything. Why should it just be the CS and no one else that receives such immunity. If anything it's not the CS imo that is humanity greatest hope it's Lazlo.

Two reasons.

1) Everyone told Tolkeen to run away, ----NOT---- because the CS was right. But because it didn't MATTER if the CS was right nor not, the end result would be Tolkeen's obliteration if they staid to fight. Right or wrong. "Run and you may live. Stay and you'll surely die" The CS in their battle. Won. Tolkeen was told by ---everyone--- that they couldn't win. "The Three" Said that even if all the magic kingdoms teamed up they couldn't beat the CS. Lazlo came to the same conclusion. Even united they couldn't defeat the CS. Just prolong the war and all die. If every expert in the field tells you to tun away, because to stay and fight is suicide... and you not only stay and fight, but devolve into demon lovin' evil to fight.. that's on you.

and

2) The second reason the CS didn't run, is that it was our planet. Humans. Earth. They hadn't been around for a few hundred years, but hundreds of thousands. Humanity evolved here. It's our planet. At the very very most, Tolkeen has been around for a few hundred years. The Dbees, aliens, ect invaded our planet and at the very best, are occupying forces.


For the record. I don't think the NGR should run either. Nor the new Navy. Nor the Sovotiski (Sp?). Ect.

For the record on something else. I don't "love" the CS as I've been accused from time to time. I just see how they're implimented and written. if __I__ were on Rifts earth I'd strive to be a Cyberknight. Failing that I'd be in Northern Gun (( as that's where I sit today)). Failing THAT TOO, Probably Lazlo or Merc town. Not "The CS" The CS would be far down my list of groups to join.

[Lenwen]

Yup that platoon of soldiers had Tolkeen surrounded in a circle of death.

Why are you completely ignoring all the other stuff written in CWC .. about how the CS was operating prior to the invasion ..

As seen / read by other people on the boards ..

There are numerous references to CS policy toward Tolkeen to be found in the CWC book. Mentions of stationing troops along the kingdom's borders to prevent aid or reinforcement, cutting off supply lines years prior, disruption of communications, conquering neighboring allied kingdoms to deny support, military units being sent on search and destroy missions against the kingdom for up to six years before the book's "current" date of 105 PA, and so on.

By 99 PA, the writing was clearly on the wall.

LMAO!!

[Galroth]

2) The second reason the CS didn't run, is that it was our planet. Humans. Earth. They hadn't been around for a few hundred years, but hundreds of thousands. Humanity evolved here. It's our planet. At the very very most, Tolkeen has been around for a few hundred years. The Dbees, aliens, ect invaded our planet and at the very best, are occupying forces.

This ignores the fact that there were humans living in Tolkeen. Do they somehow have less of a right to there land because they practice magic?