Tolkeen - Evil?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

There are numerous references to CS policy toward Tolkeen to be found in the CWC book. Mentions of stationing troops along the kingdom's borders to prevent aid or reinforcement, cutting off supply lines years prior, disruption of communications, conquering neighboring allied kingdoms to deny support, military units being sent on search and destroy missions against the kingdom for up to six years before the book's "current" date of 105 PA, and so on.

By 99 PA, the writing was clearly on the wall.

Page then please

[Pepsi Jedi]

2) The second reason the CS didn't run, is that it was our planet. Humans. Earth. They hadn't been around for a few hundred years, but hundreds of thousands. Humanity evolved here. It's our planet. At the very very most, Tolkeen has been around for a few hundred years. The Dbees, aliens, ect invaded our planet and at the very best, are occupying forces.

This ignores the fact that there were humans living in Tolkeen. Do they somehow have less of a right to there land because they practice magic?

Nope. Because they consort with demons and other occupying forces and summon demonic armies to kill humans.

[Mercdog]

In a bad nor' eastern accent...

"Well, looks like theas a stohm a brewin'."
"Yeap. Best find us some demon's and give 'em cybanetics."

Sorry, but the discussion put that image in my head. You may now resume your discussions.

[Lenwen]

2) The second reason the CS didn't run, is that it was our planet. Humans. Earth. They hadn't been around for a few hundred years, but hundreds of thousands. Humanity evolved here. It's our planet. At the very very most, Tolkeen has been around for a few hundred years. The Dbees, aliens, ect invaded our planet and at the very best, are occupying forces.

This ignores the fact that there were humans living in Tolkeen. Do they somehow have less of a right to there land because they practice magic?

Very good point ..

Do some human's get more rights .. then others ?

[Sureshot]

There are numerous references to CS policy toward Tolkeen to be found in the CWC book. Mentions of stationing troops along the kingdom's borders to prevent aid or reinforcement, cutting off supply lines years prior, disruption of communications, conquering neighboring allied kingdoms to deny support, military units being sent on search and destroy missions against the kingdom for up to six years before the book's "current" date of 105 PA, and so on.

By 99 PA, the writing was clearly on the wall.

So it was not some spur of the moment shift in policy towards Tolkien or because they "suddenly" by canon became evil. You don't surrond and cut off food supplies if you don't plan to invade. I don't know about anyone else yet if i begin to see an army starting to cut me off from the rest of the world commen sense assumes that I'm going to do what needs to be done to survive. As the Cs did against the FOM. I also like how some convienlty forget that the CS did not run away from the FOM yet everyone else against the CS need not play by the same rules. I suppose I'm going to have to ge used to CS apologists on the forums.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

2) The second reason the CS didn't run, is that it was our planet. Humans. Earth. They hadn't been around for a few hundred years, but hundreds of thousands. Humanity evolved here. It's our planet. At the very very most, Tolkeen has been around for a few hundred years. The Dbees, aliens, ect invaded our planet and at the very best, are occupying forces.

This ignores the fact that there were humans living in Tolkeen. Do they somehow have less of a right to there land because they practice magic?

Very good point ..

Do some human's get more rights .. then others ?

Yup, follow the coalition and accept them you get rights, you don't then I suggest you run and hide

[Lenwen]

Yup, follow the coalition and accept them you get rights, you don't then I suggest you run and hide

Inside the states thats acceptable..

However .. its unacceptable if they are the saviors of humanity .. fighting against humans ..

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Yup, follow the coalition and accept them you get rights, you don't then I suggest you run and hide

Inside the states thats acceptable..

However .. its unacceptable if they are the saviors of humanity .. fighting against humans ..

They still saving you when they kill you, they saving you tainted soul.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

There are numerous references to CS policy toward Tolkeen to be found in the CWC book. Mentions of stationing troops along the kingdom's borders to prevent aid or reinforcement, cutting off supply lines years prior, disruption of communications, conquering neighboring allied kingdoms to deny support, military units being sent on search and destroy missions against the kingdom for up to six years before the book's "current" date of 105 PA, and so on.

By 99 PA, the writing was clearly on the wall.

Page then please

You make no contributions to any discussion beyond mindless braying, mildly trollish comments, and requests for page numbers.

Find the references yourself.

[Sureshot]

1) Everyone told Tolkeen to run away, ----NOT---- because the CS was right. But because it didn't MATTER if the CS was right nor not, the end result would be Tolkeen's obliteration if they staid to fight. Right or wrong. "Run and you may live. Stay and you'll surely die" The CS in their battle. Won. Tolkeen was told by ---everyone--- that they couldn't win. "The Three" Said that even if all the magic kingdoms teamed up they couldn't beat the CS. Lazlo came to the same conclusion. Even united they couldn't defeat the CS. Just prolong the war and all die. If every expert in the field tells you to tun away, because to stay and fight is suicide... and you not only stay and fight, but devolve into demon lovin' evil to fight.. that's on you.

As would the CS have faced possibly oblteration againt the FOM. While it's not canon I assume that everyone allied with the CS went "guys get away the FOM is attacking you". So why can the CS stay and fight for their land and everyone else gets to play by a different set of rules. Everyone assumed that Tolkien would lose. They lost because the CS is too popular with the fanbase and the SOT was imo very poorly written in that regard. Imo both parties go at Toline loses yet the CS is badly hurt if not close to crippled. What bothers me about all the organization that told them to leave is that they were shocked at what happned to Tolkien. Seriously they refused to help Tolkien than wonder why they lost. Kevin is a good writer yet imo is far very far from his shining moment.

2) The second reason the CS didn't run, is that it was our planet. Humans. Earth. They hadn't been around for a few hundred years, but hundreds of thousands. Humanity evolved here. It's our planet. At the very very most, Tolkeen has been around for a few hundred years. The Dbees, aliens, ect invaded our planet and at the very best, are occupying forces.

So if your a pure human the end justifies the means. Anyone else or too different bah who cares I don't think the CS deserve the title of saviors at all. Their ancestors in their own stupidty by allowing the coming of the Rifts. Whos leadership is a bunch of power hungry maniacs willing to do whatever it takesto keep power.. Yeah they real seem "deserving" of the title of "we were here first". As for D-bee yes some came as occupiers some used their own abilites. Most we ripped from their worlds because humanity during the Golden Age decided it was okay to implement World WAR 3 and cause the coming of the Rifts.

For the record on something else. I don't "love" the CS as I've been accused from time to time. I just see how they're implimented and written. if __I__ were on Rifts earth I'd strive to be a Cyberknight. Failing that I'd be in Northern Gun (( as that's where I sit today)). Failing THAT TOO, Probably Lazlo or Merc town. Not "The CS" The CS would be far down my list of groups to join.

[Pepsi Jedi]

There are numerous references to CS policy toward Tolkeen to be found in the CWC book. Mentions of stationing troops along the kingdom's borders to prevent aid or reinforcement, cutting off supply lines years prior, disruption of communications, conquering neighboring allied kingdoms to deny support, military units being sent on search and destroy missions against the kingdom for up to six years before the book's "current" date of 105 PA, and so on.

By 99 PA, the writing was clearly on the wall.

So it was not some spur of the moment shift in policy towards Tolkien or because they "suddenly" by canon became evil. You don't surrond and cut off food supplies if you don't plan to invade. I don't know about anyone else yet if i begin to see an army starting to cut me off from the rest of the world commen sense assumes that I'm going to do what needs to be done to survive. As the Cs did against the FOM. I also like how some convienlty forget that the CS did not run away from the FOM yet everyone else against the CS need not play by the same rules. I suppose I'm going to have to ge used to CS apologists on the forums.

As I just pointed out, the CS had magic in their military then. The CS did not summon armies of demons. Did they? Nor were the CS invading beings on someone elses planet. They're not playing by the same rules. They are just not doing what Tolkeen did.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

There are numerous references to CS policy toward Tolkeen to be found in the CWC book. Mentions of stationing troops along the kingdom's borders to prevent aid or reinforcement, cutting off supply lines years prior, disruption of communications, conquering neighboring allied kingdoms to deny support, military units being sent on search and destroy missions against the kingdom for up to six years before the book's "current" date of 105 PA, and so on.

By 99 PA, the writing was clearly on the wall.

Page then please

You make no contributions to any discussion beyond mindless braying, mildly trollish comments, and requests for page numbers.

Find the references yourself.

Page 23

Presently , Tolkeen is not under siege , but coalition troops continue to arrive and establish positions along its borders. Several of the small, allied and unallied kingdom around it have already been attacked and conquered by the CS . Meanwhile , the coalition troops work to "contain" Tolkeen by severing it supply line preventing mercenaries and sympathizers from joining them and disrupting communications. War could erupt within the year or the week.

and that it on what the coalition is actively doing no mention of year or number of the troops in the area

[Pepsi Jedi]

1) Everyone told Tolkeen to run away, ----NOT---- because the CS was right. But because it didn't MATTER if the CS was right nor not, the end result would be Tolkeen's obliteration if they staid to fight. Right or wrong. "Run and you may live. Stay and you'll surely die" The CS in their battle. Won. Tolkeen was told by ---everyone--- that they couldn't win. "The Three" Said that even if all the magic kingdoms teamed up they couldn't beat the CS. Lazlo came to the same conclusion. Even united they couldn't defeat the CS. Just prolong the war and all die. If every expert in the field tells you to tun away, because to stay and fight is suicide... and you not only stay and fight, but devolve into demon lovin' evil to fight.. that's on you.

As would the CS have faced possibly oblteration againt the FOM.

But they didn't. The CS had mages at that point. They did NOT drop down to summoning armies of demons. They held the line and retained their humanity in the face of evil. So they DIDN'T do the same when faced with an invading army.

While it's not canon I assume that everyone allied with the CS went "guys get away the FOM is attacking you".

That's the problem. It's not canon. And it's an assumption to back your side of the debate. But that's all it is. Is an Assumption. And an erronous one, as.. the CS won when they were being invaded... and they won in the tolkeen war. So even if people told them to run that they couldn't survive the attack. They'd have been wrong. Where in those telling Tolkeen to run, that they couldn't survive the attack... were right.

So why can the CS stay and fight for their land and everyone else gets to play by a different set of rules.

Again. 1) they're humans, it's our planet and 2) Because they were not facing total obliteration. They WON their fight. They wern't told to "Run there's no way you can win" as it's NOT canon, and even if they had been, it'd have been wrong, because the CS, DID win.

Everyone assumed that Tolkien would lose.

And they did.

They lost because the CS is too popular with the fanbase and the SOT was imo very poorly written in that regard.

I don't disagree that it was poorly written. I do disagree that "Kevin is just a CS suckboy so they'd win no matter what!!" There was hand of god on both sides during the war. Tolkeen all the sudden out of the blue had a "Nuclear missle teleporter to another dimension" shield. lol With out that hand of god the war would have taken about 5 minutes. People say that it was written to favor the CS. THAT hand of god is a ----massive---- thing.

Imo both parties go at Toline loses yet the CS is badly hurt if not close to crippled. What bothers me about all the organization that told them to leave is that they were shocked at what happned to Tolkien. Seriously they refused to help Tolkien than wonder why they lost. Kevin is a good writer yet imo is far very far from his shining moment.

No no. they wern't shocked that tolkeen lost. They lost --exactly-- as everyone said it would. They were shocked, at how far tolkeen fell and how evil they became to try and win. (( and really sucks that for all that evil. They still got destroyed. So even all the evil was for nothin'. Makes it doubly bad))

2) The second reason the CS didn't run, is that it was our planet. Humans. Earth. They hadn't been around for a few hundred years, but hundreds of thousands. Humanity evolved here. It's our planet. At the very very most, Tolkeen has been around for a few hundred years. The Dbees, aliens, ect invaded our planet and at the very best, are occupying forces.

So if your a pure human the end justifies the means.

No, but it's one reason why the CS didn't run. And again, for the record. The CS didn't stoop to demons. Tolkeen did.

Anyone else or too different bah who cares I don't think the CS deserve the title of saviors at all. Their ancestors in their own stupidty by allowing the coming of the Rifts. Whos leadership is a bunch of power hungry maniacs willing to do whatever it takesto keep power.

Not QUITE what ever it takes. They have boundries. Which is kinda funny, as tolkeen didn't. That's something that's overlooked. The CS are ------------------------NOT------------------- saints... but even at their worst, they didn't stoop to the depths that Tolkeen readily went to and in about 10 years time. Tolkeen didn't just 'gradually become evil" they dove in and swam for the bottom. lol.

. Yeah they real seem "deserving" of the title of "we were here first".

It's sorta hard to argue that Humanity evolving on Earth weren't. *nods*

As for D-bee yes some came as occupiers some used their own abilites. Most we ripped from their worlds because humanity during the Golden Age decided it was okay to implement World WAR 3 and cause the coming of the Rifts.

More of a natural disaster sort of thing, but as pointed out. There's many ways off world should they be wanting to leave. I'd surely leave before I let a military of guys in skeleton shaped armor laze my head off.

For the record on something else. I don't "love" the CS as I've been accused from time to time. I just see how they're implimented and written. if __I__ were on Rifts earth I'd strive to be a Cyberknight. Failing that I'd be in Northern Gun (( as that's where I sit today)). Failing THAT TOO, Probably Lazlo or Merc town. Not "The CS" The CS would be far down my list of groups to join.

[Sureshot]

The Cs is popular so while Kevin is not a CS suckboy I do think because of the CS popularity he as a developer of Rifts is going to give them full script and plot immunity. SOT is imo proof positive of that. Now if th CS had actually received more than a sparined wrist in the SOT I would not be psoting this yet at the end. Tolkine destroyed their military forces in full retreat. The CS lost no territores, yet as strong as ever for the most part.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

There are numerous references to CS policy toward Tolkeen to be found in the CWC book. Mentions of stationing troops along the kingdom's borders to prevent aid or reinforcement, cutting off supply lines years prior, disruption of communications, conquering neighboring allied kingdoms to deny support, military units being sent on search and destroy missions against the kingdom for up to six years before the book's "current" date of 105 PA, and so on.

By 99 PA, the writing was clearly on the wall.

Page then please

You make no contributions to any discussion beyond mindless braying, mildly trollish comments, and requests for page numbers.

Find the references yourself.

Page 23

Presently , Tolkeen is not under siege , but coalition troops continue to arrive and establish positions along its borders. Several of the small, allied and unallied kingdom around it have already been attacked and conquered by the CS . Meanwhile , the coalition troops work to "contain" Tolkeen by severing it supply line preventing mercenaries and sympathizers from joining them and disrupting communications. War could erupt within the year or the week.

and that it on what the coalition is actively doing no mention of year or number of the troops in the area

Wanna bet?

[Pepsi Jedi]

The Cs is popular so while Kevin is not a CS suckboy I do think because of the CS popularity he as a developer of Rifts is going to give them full script and plot immunity. SOT is imo proof positive of that. Now if th CS had actually received more than a sparined wrist in the SOT I would not be psoting this yet at the end. Tolkine destroyed their military forces in full retreat. The CS lost no territores, yet as strong as ever for the most part.

But that's the thing. It was universally held that the CS would do... exactly as the CS DID. Totally whup Tolkeen's much much much smaller rear up around their shoulders. How is it plot immunity that a huge hyper technological army with millions of troops, millions of dog boys and millions of skelebots, defeat a much smaller city state in war?

That Tolkeen survived the first nuke strike is pure hand of god stuff. Anything after that point was just 'barrowed time, wasn't it?

[flatline]

In a system where a dozen mages can directly or indirectly kill thousands of people, a million man army vs a city of mages isn't going to be the one-sided fight you think it is.

I don't think that anyone is really horrified that Tolkeen lost. We're just insulted by how it was done.

--flatline

[Nightmask]

In a system where a dozen mages can directly or indirectly kill thousands of people, a million man army vs a city of mages isn't going to be the one-sided fight you think it is.

I don't think that anyone is really horrified that Tolkeen lost. We're just insulted by how it was done.

--flatline

Well one should be horrified at seeing evil winning. You get to see how insidiously it spreads, as the CS with its evil infected Tolkeen as it fought to survive, increasing the amount of evil on Rifts Earth as a direct result of their actions.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

There are numerous references to CS policy toward Tolkeen to be found in the CWC book. Mentions of stationing troops along the kingdom's borders to prevent aid or reinforcement, cutting off supply lines years prior, disruption of communications, conquering neighboring allied kingdoms to deny support, military units being sent on search and destroy missions against the kingdom for up to six years before the book's "current" date of 105 PA, and so on.

By 99 PA, the writing was clearly on the wall.

Page then please

You make no contributions to any discussion beyond mindless braying, mildly trollish comments, and requests for page numbers.

Find the references yourself.

Page 23

Presently , Tolkeen is not under siege , but coalition troops continue to arrive and establish positions along its borders. Several of the small, allied and unallied kingdom around it have already been attacked and conquered by the CS . Meanwhile , the coalition troops work to "contain" Tolkeen by severing it supply line preventing mercenaries and sympathizers from joining them and disrupting communications. War could erupt within the year or the week.

and that it on what the coalition is actively doing no mention of year or number of the troops in the area

Wanna bet?

then enlighten me

[Killer Cyborg]

In a system where a dozen mages can directly or indirectly kill thousands of people, a million man army vs a city of mages isn't going to be the one-sided fight you think it is.

I don't think that anyone is really horrified that Tolkeen lost. We're just insulted by how it was done.

--flatline

The bolded is the issue.
You're stating a conclusion that you came to based on what you understand of the rules and the setting.
This conclusion apparently disagrees with the conclusion that the creator of the setting has, in that Tolkeen DID lose.
From there, you seem to assume that the author is wrong about his own setting, NOT that you might have a mistaken impression of the power of mages, and the numbers of powerful mages available in the setting.

I'm not sure that's the correct assumption.

That being said, I have the same issue the other way: I think it's absurd how long it took the CS to take down Tolkeen, and kind of insulting how much damage they sustained in the process.
But then, it's quite possible that I am in the wrong, that I've over-estimated the ability of the CS troops.
And since the war went the way the war went, there's some evidence that I did over-estimate them.

[SAMASzero]

No, that's the New German Republic. The Coalition States is only concerned with it's own power.

And all those millions of humans fighting the inhuman invaders on earth are what? A cleverly constructed ruse? The NGR IS the CS, under seige. It's not like they're friendly to Dbees. They kick them out of their nation, or at best allow them to exist as second class citizens, after they serve 20 years as cannon fodder? (( I think it's 20. I could be wrong about the number)) The Cs just doesn't use them as Cannon fodder.

The CS is NOT under siege

I know. I said, -----the NGR---- is.... the CS...., under siege.

As in the NGR and the CS are much the same but the NGR is under siege, the CS is not.

And yet the NGR, with enemies that are an actual threat, [/quote]

The CS have actual threats too. They had Tolkeen, they have the Federation. They have Atlantis. They have Archie (( though they don't know about him)) They have the Republicans too. They have the Xits. They have the Pecos Empire. [/quote]

Tolkeen was a threat only in their own minds. The Federation hadn't made a move in almost seventy years. Altantis doesn't move at all. They don't even know about Archie or the Republicans. The Xiticix are a problem they have consistently ignored, and the Pecos Empire is no real threat to the Tex-Am complex.

the NGR leaves magic-users alone.

Eh. Kinda sorta. They're handwaved under the "The NGR never lost it's tech so it just never thought magic was a good idea. Next!"

Exactly. It's not their thing, so they leave it (and for the most part, non-hostile practitioners) alone.

It does not keep it's masses ignorant, and as bad as it treats D-Bees, it lets them speak out and prove themselves ("General" Rasheen, et al).

Yes it does teach more of it's population to read. And yes it does treat Dbee's badly. Rasheen was pretty much universally held as an 'oops' that made it through editing.. Largely ignored for years and years.. then when it didn't go away, they upped it a bit in the newer book. One DBee politican does not universally make DBees all good. They're treated as second class citizens, IF they put in years and years on the front lines fighting for the country against monsters. Otherwise they're escourted to the border and told to have a nice life.

Considering that they're under siege by armies of demons... being escorted to the border... what would that be....

...Left to fend for themselves. It's explicitly stated as such in both Triax books.

And the whole Genocide thing, we can't forget that.

*Looks up* Ahhhhhh.......

Don't even start. Both Triax books directly say otherwise. The only race the NGR is trying to wipe out is the Gargoyles, specifically because A: the Gargoyles leave them no other option, and B: as a direct counter to the Gargoyles' breeding advantage.

The CS may be surrounded by people it has proclaimed to be it's enemies, but only one of those is actively hostile. The NGR on the other hand has been in an active state of war with two enemy states of comparable power for nearly a hundred years. If you were to offer to make the CS and NGR switch geographical places, the only things that would stop the Germans from saying "yes" before you finished your sentence would be national pride and the fact that they would be subjecting someone else to their situation.

Things aren't quite so bad now. the CS is sending them food and two field armies, aren't they?

Like that changes things. [/quote]

Yes. It changes things. The CS is feeding the Germans and transversing the Atlantic to put boot to ass to help them out. And.. due to that, the NGR are doing great lately. The CS didn't do it single handedly, but it didn't happen till the CS pitched in. [/quote]

No, it doesn't. The CS's aid is helping, but the NGR is still pulling the majority of the effort and then some.

Granted, the NGR is making things better themselves,

With aid from across the world, and from the New Navy too if memory serves?

The New Navy's assistance was even more limited than the CS' (I mean, they could've chipped in a bombardment on the Roosts near France's southern Med coast). For Operation Sea Storm and beyond, the NGR is still doing the lion's share of the work.

And you'll also note that despite being in a worse situation than the Coalition States, the NGR doesn't lie to it's people, doesn't keep them ignorant and dependent, and despite treating D-Bees badly (which is improving if slowly), does not declare them Enemies of the State just for existing.

They don't lie as much. It's been a while since I've read the two NGR books but wasn't there some lies around the assassination of the leader or something? I seem to remember it but I could be mistaken. yes they teach their people to read. As for being dependant. They're under siege.... and are now getting hand outs from the CS in the form of feeding their nation and troops to help with THEIR war.

And as for the DBee situation, again, if you're escorted to the border of a nation under siege by demonic armies.... what happens then? Doesn't that mean that the NGR throw the dbees to the slavering jaws of the gargoyles and brodkil. Killing them by proxy?

They live in their own settlements along the border. Some still sympathize with the NGR, some turned to the Gargoyles/Brodkil, most just work to survive. . Explained in both books.

Soft sell, same thing. They move them out to the borders. They're undesireables. They're unwanted and at the very best they're allowed in, after they spend years in segregated military service. If they some how survive decades of being Cannon fodder they're allowed to exist as unwanted, undesired second hand citizens.

Not the same thing. D-Bees in the NGR have the opportunity to improve their life, in the NGR, as part of the NGR, without a sudden and violent change in regime.

ONLY if they survive years of front line service fighting demons. lol "oh we'll let you in and treat you like a slave.. if you put in 20 years on the front lines fighting demons" Isn't THAT much better. Yes the opportunity is there. You're not wrong about that. But wow, the cost. [/quote]

I said Possible, not Easy. But with more effort, it can and will get easier.

You think they would ever have that opportunity even near the CS as long as the Proseks are alive? Or afterwards, for that matter?

not sure... The CS had a strong anti Juicer rule, till they needed juicers. It's possible that the CS might take a page from the NGR and allow 20 years of fighting on the front lines to pay off as a slave class.... if that's how the opportunity played out. The CS have embraced and LOVE their Dog boys...

I would point out the differences between "Dangerous and Forbidden Technology" and "Declared Enemies of the State Just for Existing".

If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't lie about the world's History.

Why? Because history matters when fighting aliens from other worlds? They maintain CONTROL by lieing about history. It has nothing to do with mankind's ongoing survival.

My point exactly.

But my point remains. They're fighting in a world full of aliens demons and worse. Yes the CS maintains control. To help keep it's nation strong. I don't agree with it, but it's a far cry from being against humanity.

I never said they were against Humanity. I'm just saying that 80% of the Coalition's policies are geared towards keeping the Prosek family on top more than they are for the good of Humanity. The fact that so many of the nations around them (and elsewhere on the planet) do just fine without doing the same (and often in worse conditions and without the same resources and power) is especially damning.

Remember, history is written by the winners. Don't mistake a policy to maintain control of a people, to be 'evil'. All governments lie about history to some extent. Even if it's only egocentric representation and view point. And I never said 'ONLY concerned with Mankinds survival. They're concerned about other things as well. But mankind's survival is paramount.

No, the Prosek family's power is paramount.

Is it? To who? only the Proseks. Not to the Coalition. To the Coalition, MANKIND is paramount.

To quote Louis XIV (allegedly): "L'etat, c'est moi". The Coalition States is a Facist state. That means a small group of people make the decisions for the state as a whole. And in this case they lie, withhold information, and misrepresent those facts they do let on to skew their people into blindly agreeing with them. [/quote]

All nations lie, with hold information and misrepresent facts to keep the people doing what those in power want. it's not a uniquely fascist thing. It just is more blatant because we, as players can look at it from the writers or reader's point of view. [/quote]

And that excuses them how?

That is why the CS went to war against Free Quebec: Prosek didn't like anyone coming out from under his sphere of influence.

The CS didn't want to lose the naval forces or the power that Quebec represented either. While 'pride' did factor in, it's not the only factor. War is never quite that simple.

Quebec didn't just decide to break off one day. It was because the Coalition as a whole, and Chi-Town (i.e. Prosek and his cronies) in particular, were trying to make them run their nation the way they wanted them too.

Yeah.... that's kinda what a nation does.... And FQ sure didn't mind all the military power and resources that the CS poured into them, before they ducked out. If you look in the FQ book they still use alot of it, as back up or retro fit, after unveiling their new stuff, built in secret while benifiting from being a CS member state.

You think the CS just gave it to them for free?

"For the last decade Chi-Town had begun to make unilateral policy decisions for the greater good of the Coalition States. Decisions that
free Quebec either disagreed with or which they felt removed from the decision making process; Consideration for the individual allied States seemed to have evaporated. They no longer seemed to be regarded or treated as equals, but as silent partners meant to do as they were
told. Fiercely independent, the people and government of Quebec saw this disregard as an insult and a violation of the people's civil liberties and the regional government's autonomy... ...Free Quebec was willing to work with Chi-Town and the other states, but they demanded to govern and defend themselves as "they" saw fit. To make their own laws, maintain their own unique military and live under their own
regional laws, traditions and moral sensibilities... ...Free Quebec began to see edicts like the dismantling of the Glitter Boys, supposedly in favor of a uniform (Chi-Town designed) army, as a thinly disguised plot to undermine their nation... ...a deliberate effort to limit and control the Quebec Army, making them reliant on Chi-Town for its defenses and military technology." (World Book 23: Free Quebec, pp. 12-13

Yes. That's what nations do. What you're describing is the same thing as if Texas wanted all the benifits of federal taxes, federal aid, federal monies and defense of the US military, but also wanted to make laws that pertained to Texas, keep their own standing army seperate from the US, and demand to be treated better than the other 49 states in the union. If Texas ever demanded to "Govern and defend themselves as "they" Saw fir, to make their own laws, their own unique military and live under their own regional laws, traditions and moral sesibilities" It would look like a total kook.

You're either a member state of the country. Or not. FQ wanted all the benifits, but not pay the dues. Doesn't work that way.

Except there was no such deal. The CS government doesn't have the same Constitution the US did (though I suspect they may claim otherwise). Of the CS States, only Chi-Town, Iron Heart, and Free Quebec had the resources to be independent. Iron Heart chose to kiss up to Chi-Town, while Free Quebec desired a more or less equal partnership between states. They realized they weren't getting that, didn't like the deal they were expected to take and so chose to leave.

"Subversive Activities involving education and the dissemination of dangerous ideas: This includes rogue scholars and scientists teaching the peasant masses and illiterate citizens of the CS (even those of the middle and lower levels) how to read, write, mathematics and pre-Rifts history (or any history that differs from the official CS version). The penalty ranges from 15 years to life imprisonment, and even death." (Rifts World Book 11: Coalition War Campaign, p. 29)

Again, yes, subversive activities are not tolerated. I don't agree with it, but it doesn't change the previous fact that 14% of grunts can read 100% of officers, the upper classes and the fact that they have a university and countless people in high tech fields.

And yes, again, with out going into a thread 50 pages long, it's widly seen as impossible that SO many people in the society can't read.

Even if you go by the book over 14% can. With the entire officer corps, and many in the upper levels of society, and all those in the high tech and medical industries.

And how does that excuse the fact that it is illegal to teach the rest (and I remind you, vast majority) of the citizenry?

Again, watch those cuts and pastes. If they catch you doing so out of a book they haven't put out in pdf you'll get in trouble.

What I do with my books is my business, as long as I don't go putting them up on BitTorrent.

To reiterate: The CS hunts people for teaching the masses (the Military and the Elite, by definition, are not "The Masses"), and their Public Enemy #1 is a History Teacher.

It hunts people for putting out what they concider dangerous information. The non approved history. yes. And Yes. That is wrong. I don't agree with it. But it doesn't change the fact that 14% of the grunts on the line can read.

You said 11% before. And it's still insufficient to make it good. Which is the whole point of the argument. That what they are doing is a bad thing.

This carefully executed program of ignorance and complacency is all part of Emperor Prosek's master plan. A happy and complacent people
don't condemn their leaders or question what they take for granted. Furthermore, by keeping the people blissfully uneducated and illiterate,
they don't know what questions to ask or where to find answers for any questions they might raise. This creates blind faith and total dependency on their leaders and the infrastructure their leaders have created (government, military, communications system, etc.). Such dependency leads to an intense and desperate "need" to preserve everything they have, which in turn gives their leaders even more power over them — CS citizens are known to fight tooth and nail to preserve their nation and way of life. -- Rifts World Book 13: Lone Star, p. 68

Yep. Every nation does this in part, but yes. Do note the "Happy and complacent" and the fact that they fight tooth and nail to preserve their nation and way of life.

If they're happy with the way things are, and think themselves safe...... ?

By lying to them and telling them that everyone who doesn't look and think like them is an enemy out of their blood? And shooting anyone who "threatens" to give them the opportunity to find the truth for themselves?

Yep. Seems smart, especially when you need that kinda divotion to fight literal armies of demons and worse from the rifts.
It's not NICE to manipulate people. Karl IS evil after all. Manipulation is well with in his range of behavior.

And here's the "yet below" I mentioned before.

WHAT Literal army of Demons?

Tolkeen had liteal armies of demons in the last war. They fielded the Deamonix (however it's spelled) Against human nations.

And Tolkien only got those monsters because the CS rejected their peaceful overtures and spent the next seventy years telling them "You are our enemy and someday we are coming to destroy you!". Oh, and they didn't get those demons until the Coalition changed their stance to "Okay, we're coming to kill you now!". Oh, and note that said demons were only used to defend their territory, never to attack the Coalition States itself, and never would have been (or had been called in the first place) had the CS not been looking for a fight for the past three generations.

There's armies of demons in the demon nation of Calgary.

Which are, you guessed it, waaaay over in Calgary getting whaled on by Larsen's Brigade (a force much smaller than the Coalition Army even post-Siege).

And, the minion war is coming.

Something nobody but the Calgary Demons knows about.

That's with out touching the evil Dbees, sploog, hourne, ect ect ect.

All of which are small potatoes in CS territory.

And if it's such a smart decision, why does the NGR, which we have both established is in a far worse and more immediate situation, not see the need to do so?

Because Germany didn't have to face the "Dark ages" the same way the humans in the CS did. Germany kept going with their untra tech. They never fell so low that they had to dig their way back up.

And Kingsdale? Lazlo? Los Alamo? El Dorado? The New Empire? The Warlords of Russia? Santiago? Colombia? Let's keep it short: Of all the Human nations that clawed their way through the Dark Ages, why do so few of them feel the need?

I will again point out, every government does this at least in part. Ever since governments were created. In this case (( With the CS)) The writers just come right out and point at it for the benefits of the 13 year olds playin' the game.

"In part". But that's the thing, isn't it? Sometimes the difference between Virtue and Deadly Sin is how much. And in 77 P.A., the Coalition went too much.

I fully agree that there are different shades of gray. The CS is sometimes very dark black. But not universally so.

"There are worse guys" does not mean you aren't a bad guy yourself.

If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't have a 20-year expansion plan that involves territory held by non-hostile and even Human-controlled nations (Not just Tolkeen, they plann to take over the territories of Lazlo, New Lazlo, and Free Quebec too).

Free Quebec is old news. It WAS a member. Ceeded, there was a civil war, which is now over and they're allies. Again. You're throwing 'ONLY" out there which I didn't say. But that doesn't matter. They're expansionistic. They're reclaiming earth for humans. That they're expanding is in no way counter to that. They're starting with the territory around them. Why is Lazlo, new Lazlo in there? It's between chi town and Quebec. That's just geography. You don't have a power base, then skip over 1000s of miles of land and set up another power base. You grow out from what you have. You -expand-.

Invade, you mean. That is what it's called when you -expand- into someone else's sovereign territory.

Yes. That is what it's called when you expand into someone's territory. In the case of Rifts. 90% of the planet isn't claimed. Which makes Expansion alot easier.

And yet, there they go "expanding" into people's homes.

As for Lazlo.. well there's a problem with the "Sovereign" part. For the longest time it was called what, the place by the river? Technically most of those in Lazlo are squatting on HUMANITY's Sovereign territory. Sort of like if you found a town of illegal aliens in southern Texas on this side of the border. That town isn't suddenly it's own sovereign nation, nor is it a part of Mexico. They're squatting on US land.

in Lazlo's case, the DBees are squatting on earth.

False analogy (and a bad one to boot). Lazlo, like most large palces on Earth has a predominately Human population. Your "town" is at least 50% Good Old-Fashioned White People, and the majority of the Mexicans were born in that town (and thus on American soil), making them citizens, too.

Even if we assume they're squatting, there's a little thing called Adverse Possession, a.k.a. Squatter's Rights. Depending on how long the town has been there, that land could be theirs Legally. [/quote]

"Squatter's rights" don't pertain in planetary claims. They're actual LITERAL illegal Aliens.[/quote]

By whose laws? (you wanna start this mess again, we'll drag it all the way through)

Humanity (( in rifts earth)) has never agreed to the giving of land to Aliens. We were invaded and are repelling invasion.

What invasion? Invasion implies intent. 99% of the D-Bees on Earth have no intent to invade land, they just gotta survive just as we do.

It's taken us 300 years to get out of the dark ages that the inital invasion has caused, but now Humanity is clawing it's way back up.

And? Where does that give us the right to push around people clawing their way back up from "lost several infinities from home"?

Also, unlike your analogy, the CS has no legal claim to the land Lazlo is built on.

HUMANS have legal claim. It's OUR PLANET. We never agreed to Alien colonization. We were attacked during natural disasters and forced to claw our way back to dominance on our own planet.

The HUMANS of Lazlo agreed.

In a universe where everything is fair and people can just claim other planets for their own, you might have an arguement. Humanity as a whole on rifts earth highly dissagrees. They see it as OUR planet that's been invaded. Not 'Land for all'.

But they don't disagree as a whole. In fact, the number of predominantly human communities that reject D-Bees outright are in fact very small. The CS, Free Quebec, NGR (which we've established is slowly changing that policy), Cordoba, and maybe Melbourne and Perth. Even Colombia accepts Dwarves and Elves.

The Coalition States is not the Imperium of Man. They are the biggest option, not the best choice of a bad lot.

They're not the only choice by far. They are just currently in the US, the option with the best chance, at present. I don't think the CS is 100% good. Not by far. Many of their actions are horrid. Their views of DBees is governed by 300 years of fear and due to that, are often wrong. Not every DBee is evil. But after 300 years of fighting the evil ones, "Better safe than sorry. Humans first" is a mindset easily understood.

"Humans First" sure. "Genocide", "Ignorance", and "Fascism" ? Less so. Justification doesn't make your actions any less evil. It just means you're not a card-carrying member of the Baby-Eaters Club.

It depends on how you define evil. (( Which there's been threads that haven't even been close to doing so.)) By INTENT, ---MOST--- of the CS are not evil. MOST of the CS military fight the Dbees because they ---honestly--- believe that they're evil alien invaders and fighting them makes their husbands and wives and children at home safer. SOME of the CS leaders are evil, perhaps even MOST CS leaders are evil, but even in their evil, they 'help' humanity as a whole. It's a tricky dichotomy. "Evil leaders using a good populace to further their power, by protecting and growing humanity, so that they have more to control over, to help humanity, to retake the planet"

I'm sure.. 100s if not 1000s of years down the road. Should the CS "Win" and there only be humans left... things would change. But as of now, they're still the underdogs fighting the 'good' fight.

The Coalition States are, even weakened from Tolkien, still the largest single force in North America. That's not an Underdog by any definition of the word.

They're Underdogs when compaired to all the alien invaders on the planet. Compaired to Atlantis, all of earth is an underdog. Sure if the NGR and CS and Japan, and New Navy, and England, and all the other humans on earth teamed up. They might put a DENT into the forces standing on Atlantis at any one point, but doesn't the head sploog have multiple PLANETS WORTH of back up he can rift in in short order? I think someone said 'Trillions" of troops? (( Could be wrong there. it's be a long time since i read and noted exact numbers from world book 2.))

But the CS isn't fighting Atlantis, are they? Outside of trade and slave raiding, the Splynncryth pretty much leaves everybody on Earth to their own devices. They don't count. To be an Underdog, there must be active competition/conflict.

Yes, the CS are the most powerful human nation in North America. But globally they can't take the entire planet.

Thankfully. But that has nothing to do with North America.

The individual goodness of people within a government means nothing when the government itself is doing evil.

I'd say it means alot. Especially when the government is securing mankind's existance on our own planet.

But they're not. They're not fighting the Splugorth, they're not fighting the Xiticix. The CS has done little more than take potshots at any real threat to Humanity on Earth. They just went to mess with a predominantly Human nation that left them alone for seventy years and was friendly towards them before that. That's not "securing mankind's existence".

I'm not saying the People of the CS are Evil. The Government of the CS is Evil, and since they are calling the shots, that means the Coalition States are the Bad Guys.

No. It means the leaders of the CS are Evil. Again, the CS does alot of good. it's the stable government in NA for humanity on our own planet. They're allies with the NGR and are feeding the NGR and giving military support to another human nation in need. [/quote]

Nothern Gun. Manistique Imperium. Lazo, New Lazo. The Colorado Baronies. All are stable governments. For most of them, the only thing unstable about them is the threat of, guess who?

I'm sure there were plenty of crewmen on the Death Star that were good people.

And all those indipendant contractors!!

In fact, there's a novel about that. Did that mean the Empire was the Good Guy? Underdogs fighting the good fight to maintain order in the Galaxy?

The Rebles were the underdogs, rebelling against the Sith Lead Empire that after thousands of years had fallen into the state it was in.

Thing is... people forget. All in all. The "Empire" for all the plublicity it gets. Wasn't really in power all that long. It's easily argued less than one generation of Empire rule in the galaxy. From the time the Twins were born till Luke was 18-24ish. A long time and it sucked, but speaking in Galactic terms.. not THAT long at all. Heck Luke's in his 60s now and still going. There's been at least three major government changes since "Return of the Jedi".

Not the point. Did you not claim the CS aren't bad guys because the majority of soldiers believed in their cause?

How about Gundam? The Cyclops Team sure were great guys. Ranba Ral was a great guy. Norris Packard, Yuri Kellarney, Lalah Sune.... Hell, Gundam is littered with the corpses (and parts thereof) of Zeon/Titans/OZ/ZAFT/Omni Enforcer/A-Laws/etc... troops who where good people. But as long as monsters like Ghiren Zabi, Murata Azrael, Ribbons Almark, and Jamitov Hyman were in charge of their factions, they were the Bad Guys.

Still don't know Gundam. bla bla bla is all I got out of that reference. lol Sorry.

See by above point. Belief in your cause does not save you from being a bad guy. It just makes you a more compelling one.

Or how about The Avengers? Remember that guy in Germany who stood up to Loki? Would you not say he was old enough to have served in World War II? If so, which army did you think he served in?

mmmmm It's been a month or two since I saw the movie, but I think he was speakin' English? I honestly don't remember. I thought it was cool he stood up to Loki.

Or did you mean Captain A and Iron man?[/quote]

Loki: "There are no men like me."
Old Man: "There are always men like you."

And the man in question was German.

This is what Greying means. Nice guys on the front lines doesn't keep your side from being bad.

nor does bad guys at the top mean you're all evil. Just like Germany in WWII. Not all Germans were evil just because Hitler and the SS were.

But nonetheless, Nazi Germany had to be stopped. Though many German soldiers honestly believed that they were pulling their country from an unfair surrender (partially right) and fighting communism (how's that for ironic?) Nazi Germany was the bad guys because they had an Evil man and his cronies in charge using them to do Bad things.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Spoiler:

No, that's the New German Republic. The Coalition States is only concerned with it's own power.

And all those millions of humans fighting the inhuman invaders on earth are what? A cleverly constructed ruse? The NGR IS the CS, under seige. It's not like they're friendly to Dbees. They kick them out of their nation, or at best allow them to exist as second class citizens, after they serve 20 years as cannon fodder? (( I think it's 20. I could be wrong about the number)) The Cs just doesn't use them as Cannon fodder.

The CS is NOT under siege

I know. I said, -----the NGR---- is.... the CS...., under siege.

As in the NGR and the CS are much the same but the NGR is under siege, the CS is not.

And yet the NGR, with enemies that are an actual threat,

The CS have actual threats too. They had Tolkeen, they have the Federation. They have Atlantis. They have Archie (( though they don't know about him)) They have the Republicans too. They have the Xits. They have the Pecos Empire. [/quote]

Tolkeen was a threat only in their own minds. The Federation hadn't made a move in almost seventy years. Altantis doesn't move at all. They don't even know about Archie or the Republicans. The Xiticix are a problem they have consistently ignored, and the Pecos Empire is no real threat to the Tex-Am complex.

the NGR leaves magic-users alone.

Eh. Kinda sorta. They're handwaved under the "The NGR never lost it's tech so it just never thought magic was a good idea. Next!"

Exactly. It's not their thing, so they leave it (and for the most part, non-hostile practitioners) alone.

It does not keep it's masses ignorant, and as bad as it treats D-Bees, it lets them speak out and prove themselves ("General" Rasheen, et al).

Yes it does teach more of it's population to read. And yes it does treat Dbee's badly. Rasheen was pretty much universally held as an 'oops' that made it through editing.. Largely ignored for years and years.. then when it didn't go away, they upped it a bit in the newer book. One DBee politican does not universally make DBees all good. They're treated as second class citizens, IF they put in years and years on the front lines fighting for the country against monsters. Otherwise they're escourted to the border and told to have a nice life.

Considering that they're under siege by armies of demons... being escorted to the border... what would that be....

...Left to fend for themselves. It's explicitly stated as such in both Triax books.

And the whole Genocide thing, we can't forget that.

*Looks up* Ahhhhhh.......

Don't even start. Both Triax books directly say otherwise. The only race the NGR is trying to wipe out is the Gargoyles, specifically because A: the Gargoyles leave them no other option, and B: as a direct counter to the Gargoyles' breeding advantage.

The CS may be surrounded by people it has proclaimed to be it's enemies, but only one of those is actively hostile. The NGR on the other hand has been in an active state of war with two enemy states of comparable power for nearly a hundred years. If you were to offer to make the CS and NGR switch geographical places, the only things that would stop the Germans from saying "yes" before you finished your sentence would be national pride and the fact that they would be subjecting someone else to their situation.

Things aren't quite so bad now. the CS is sending them food and two field armies, aren't they?

Like that changes things. [/quote]

Yes. It changes things. The CS is feeding the Germans and transversing the Atlantic to put boot to ass to help them out. And.. due to that, the NGR are doing great lately. The CS didn't do it single handedly, but it didn't happen till the CS pitched in. [/quote]

No, it doesn't. The CS's aid is helping, but the NGR is still pulling the majority of the effort and then some.

Granted, the NGR is making things better themselves,

With aid from across the world, and from the New Navy too if memory serves?

The New Navy's assistance was even more limited than the CS' (I mean, they could've chipped in a bombardment on the Roosts near France's southern Med coast). For Operation Sea Storm and beyond, the NGR is still doing the lion's share of the work.

And you'll also note that despite being in a worse situation than the Coalition States, the NGR doesn't lie to it's people, doesn't keep them ignorant and dependent, and despite treating D-Bees badly (which is improving if slowly), does not declare them Enemies of the State just for existing.

They don't lie as much. It's been a while since I've read the two NGR books but wasn't there some lies around the assassination of the leader or something? I seem to remember it but I could be mistaken. yes they teach their people to read. As for being dependant. They're under siege.... and are now getting hand outs from the CS in the form of feeding their nation and troops to help with THEIR war.

And as for the DBee situation, again, if you're escorted to the border of a nation under siege by demonic armies.... what happens then? Doesn't that mean that the NGR throw the dbees to the slavering jaws of the gargoyles and brodkil. Killing them by proxy?

They live in their own settlements along the border. Some still sympathize with the NGR, some turned to the Gargoyles/Brodkil, most just work to survive. . Explained in both books.

Soft sell, same thing. They move them out to the borders. They're undesireables. They're unwanted and at the very best they're allowed in, after they spend years in segregated military service. If they some how survive decades of being Cannon fodder they're allowed to exist as unwanted, undesired second hand citizens.

Not the same thing. D-Bees in the NGR have the opportunity to improve their life, in the NGR, as part of the NGR, without a sudden and violent change in regime.

ONLY if they survive years of front line service fighting demons. lol "oh we'll let you in and treat you like a slave.. if you put in 20 years on the front lines fighting demons" Isn't THAT much better. Yes the opportunity is there. You're not wrong about that. But wow, the cost. [/quote]

I said Possible, not Easy. But with more effort, it can and will get easier.

You think they would ever have that opportunity even near the CS as long as the Proseks are alive? Or afterwards, for that matter?

not sure... The CS had a strong anti Juicer rule, till they needed juicers. It's possible that the CS might take a page from the NGR and allow 20 years of fighting on the front lines to pay off as a slave class.... if that's how the opportunity played out. The CS have embraced and LOVE their Dog boys...

I would point out the differences between "Dangerous and Forbidden Technology" and "Declared Enemies of the State Just for Existing".

If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't lie about the world's History.

Why? Because history matters when fighting aliens from other worlds? They maintain CONTROL by lieing about history. It has nothing to do with mankind's ongoing survival.

My point exactly.

But my point remains. They're fighting in a world full of aliens demons and worse. Yes the CS maintains control. To help keep it's nation strong. I don't agree with it, but it's a far cry from being against humanity.

I never said they were against Humanity. I'm just saying that 80% of the Coalition's policies are geared towards keeping the Prosek family on top more than they are for the good of Humanity. The fact that so many of the nations around them (and elsewhere on the planet) do just fine without doing the same (and often in worse conditions and without the same resources and power) is especially damning.

Remember, history is written by the winners. Don't mistake a policy to maintain control of a people, to be 'evil'. All governments lie about history to some extent. Even if it's only egocentric representation and view point. And I never said 'ONLY concerned with Mankinds survival. They're concerned about other things as well. But mankind's survival is paramount.

No, the Prosek family's power is paramount.

Is it? To who? only the Proseks. Not to the Coalition. To the Coalition, MANKIND is paramount.

To quote Louis XIV (allegedly): "L'etat, c'est moi". The Coalition States is a Facist state. That means a small group of people make the decisions for the state as a whole. And in this case they lie, withhold information, and misrepresent those facts they do let on to skew their people into blindly agreeing with them. [/quote]

All nations lie, with hold information and misrepresent facts to keep the people doing what those in power want. it's not a uniquely fascist thing. It just is more blatant because we, as players can look at it from the writers or reader's point of view. [/quote]

And that excuses them how?

That is why the CS went to war against Free Quebec: Prosek didn't like anyone coming out from under his sphere of influence.

The CS didn't want to lose the naval forces or the power that Quebec represented either. While 'pride' did factor in, it's not the only factor. War is never quite that simple.

Quebec didn't just decide to break off one day. It was because the Coalition as a whole, and Chi-Town (i.e. Prosek and his cronies) in particular, were trying to make them run their nation the way they wanted them too.

Yeah.... that's kinda what a nation does.... And FQ sure didn't mind all the military power and resources that the CS poured into them, before they ducked out. If you look in the FQ book they still use alot of it, as back up or retro fit, after unveiling their new stuff, built in secret while benifiting from being a CS member state.

You think the CS just gave it to them for free?

"For the last decade Chi-Town had begun to make unilateral policy decisions for the greater good of the Coalition States. Decisions that
free Quebec either disagreed with or which they felt removed from the decision making process; Consideration for the individual allied States seemed to have evaporated. They no longer seemed to be regarded or treated as equals, but as silent partners meant to do as they were
told. Fiercely independent, the people and government of Quebec saw this disregard as an insult and a violation of the people's civil liberties and the regional government's autonomy... ...Free Quebec was willing to work with Chi-Town and the other states, but they demanded to govern and defend themselves as "they" saw fit. To make their own laws, maintain their own unique military and live under their own
regional laws, traditions and moral sensibilities... ...Free Quebec began to see edicts like the dismantling of the Glitter Boys, supposedly in favor of a uniform (Chi-Town designed) army, as a thinly disguised plot to undermine their nation... ...a deliberate effort to limit and control the Quebec Army, making them reliant on Chi-Town for its defenses and military technology." (World Book 23: Free Quebec, pp. 12-13

Yes. That's what nations do. What you're describing is the same thing as if Texas wanted all the benifits of federal taxes, federal aid, federal monies and defense of the US military, but also wanted to make laws that pertained to Texas, keep their own standing army seperate from the US, and demand to be treated better than the other 49 states in the union. If Texas ever demanded to "Govern and defend themselves as "they" Saw fir, to make their own laws, their own unique military and live under their own regional laws, traditions and moral sesibilities" It would look like a total kook.

You're either a member state of the country. Or not. FQ wanted all the benifits, but not pay the dues. Doesn't work that way.

Except there was no such deal. The CS government doesn't have the same Constitution the US did (though I suspect they may claim otherwise). Of the CS States, only Chi-Town, Iron Heart, and Free Quebec had the resources to be independent. Iron Heart chose to kiss up to Chi-Town, while Free Quebec desired a more or less equal partnership between states. They realized they weren't getting that, didn't like the deal they were expected to take and so chose to leave.

"Subversive Activities involving education and the dissemination of dangerous ideas: This includes rogue scholars and scientists teaching the peasant masses and illiterate citizens of the CS (even those of the middle and lower levels) how to read, write, mathematics and pre-Rifts history (or any history that differs from the official CS version). The penalty ranges from 15 years to life imprisonment, and even death." (Rifts World Book 11: Coalition War Campaign, p. 29)

Again, yes, subversive activities are not tolerated. I don't agree with it, but it doesn't change the previous fact that 14% of grunts can read 100% of officers, the upper classes and the fact that they have a university and countless people in high tech fields.

And yes, again, with out going into a thread 50 pages long, it's widly seen as impossible that SO many people in the society can't read.

Even if you go by the book over 14% can. With the entire officer corps, and many in the upper levels of society, and all those in the high tech and medical industries.

And how does that excuse the fact that it is illegal to teach the rest (and I remind you, vast majority) of the citizenry?

Again, watch those cuts and pastes. If they catch you doing so out of a book they haven't put out in pdf you'll get in trouble.

What I do with my books is my business, as long as I don't go putting them up on BitTorrent.

To reiterate: The CS hunts people for teaching the masses (the Military and the Elite, by definition, are not "The Masses"), and their Public Enemy #1 is a History Teacher.

It hunts people for putting out what they concider dangerous information. The non approved history. yes. And Yes. That is wrong. I don't agree with it. But it doesn't change the fact that 14% of the grunts on the line can read.

You said 11% before. And it's still insufficient to make it good. Which is the whole point of the argument. That what they are doing is a bad thing.

This carefully executed program of ignorance and complacency is all part of Emperor Prosek's master plan. A happy and complacent people
don't condemn their leaders or question what they take for granted. Furthermore, by keeping the people blissfully uneducated and illiterate,
they don't know what questions to ask or where to find answers for any questions they might raise. This creates blind faith and total dependency on their leaders and the infrastructure their leaders have created (government, military, communications system, etc.). Such dependency leads to an intense and desperate "need" to preserve everything they have, which in turn gives their leaders even more power over them — CS citizens are known to fight tooth and nail to preserve their nation and way of life. -- Rifts World Book 13: Lone Star, p. 68

Yep. Every nation does this in part, but yes. Do note the "Happy and complacent" and the fact that they fight tooth and nail to preserve their nation and way of life.

If they're happy with the way things are, and think themselves safe...... ?

By lying to them and telling them that everyone who doesn't look and think like them is an enemy out of their blood? And shooting anyone who "threatens" to give them the opportunity to find the truth for themselves?

Yep. Seems smart, especially when you need that kinda divotion to fight literal armies of demons and worse from the rifts.
It's not NICE to manipulate people. Karl IS evil after all. Manipulation is well with in his range of behavior.

And here's the "yet below" I mentioned before.

WHAT Literal army of Demons?

Tolkeen had liteal armies of demons in the last war. They fielded the Deamonix (however it's spelled) Against human nations.

And Tolkien only got those monsters because the CS rejected their peaceful overtures and spent the next seventy years telling them "You are our enemy and someday we are coming to destroy you!". Oh, and they didn't get those demons until the Coalition changed their stance to "Okay, we're coming to kill you now!". Oh, and note that said demons were only used to defend their territory, never to attack the Coalition States itself, and never would have been (or had been called in the first place) had the CS not been looking for a fight for the past three generations.

There's armies of demons in the demon nation of Calgary.

Which are, you guessed it, waaaay over in Calgary getting whaled on by Larsen's Brigade (a force much smaller than the Coalition Army even post-Siege).

And, the minion war is coming.

Something nobody but the Calgary Demons knows about.

That's with out touching the evil Dbees, sploog, hourne, ect ect ect.

All of which are small potatoes in CS territory.

And if it's such a smart decision, why does the NGR, which we have both established is in a far worse and more immediate situation, not see the need to do so?

Because Germany didn't have to face the "Dark ages" the same way the humans in the CS did. Germany kept going with their untra tech. They never fell so low that they had to dig their way back up.

And Kingsdale? Lazlo? Los Alamo? El Dorado? The New Empire? The Warlords of Russia? Santiago? Colombia? Let's keep it short: Of all the Human nations that clawed their way through the Dark Ages, why do so few of them feel the need?

I will again point out, every government does this at least in part. Ever since governments were created. In this case (( With the CS)) The writers just come right out and point at it for the benefits of the 13 year olds playin' the game.

"In part". But that's the thing, isn't it? Sometimes the difference between Virtue and Deadly Sin is how much. And in 77 P.A., the Coalition went too much.

I fully agree that there are different shades of gray. The CS is sometimes very dark black. But not universally so.

"There are worse guys" does not mean you aren't a bad guy yourself.

If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't have a 20-year expansion plan that involves territory held by non-hostile and even Human-controlled nations (Not just Tolkeen, they plann to take over the territories of Lazlo, New Lazlo, and Free Quebec too).

Free Quebec is old news. It WAS a member. Ceeded, there was a civil war, which is now over and they're allies. Again. You're throwing 'ONLY" out there which I didn't say. But that doesn't matter. They're expansionistic. They're reclaiming earth for humans. That they're expanding is in no way counter to that. They're starting with the territory around them. Why is Lazlo, new Lazlo in there? It's between chi town and Quebec. That's just geography. You don't have a power base, then skip over 1000s of miles of land and set up another power base. You grow out from what you have. You -expand-.

Invade, you mean. That is what it's called when you -expand- into someone else's sovereign territory.

Yes. That is what it's called when you expand into someone's territory. In the case of Rifts. 90% of the planet isn't claimed. Which makes Expansion alot easier.

And yet, there they go "expanding" into people's homes.

As for Lazlo.. well there's a problem with the "Sovereign" part. For the longest time it was called what, the place by the river? Technically most of those in Lazlo are squatting on HUMANITY's Sovereign territory. Sort of like if you found a town of illegal aliens in southern Texas on this side of the border. That town isn't suddenly it's own sovereign nation, nor is it a part of Mexico. They're squatting on US land.

in Lazlo's case, the DBees are squatting on earth.

False analogy (and a bad one to boot). Lazlo, like most large palces on Earth has a predominately Human population. Your "town" is at least 50% Good Old-Fashioned White People, and the majority of the Mexicans were born in that town (and thus on American soil), making them citizens, too.

Even if we assume they're squatting, there's a little thing called Adverse Possession, a.k.a. Squatter's Rights. Depending on how long the town has been there, that land could be theirs Legally. [/quote]

"Squatter's rights" don't pertain in planetary claims. They're actual LITERAL illegal Aliens.[/quote]

By whose laws? (you wanna start this mess again, we'll drag it all the way through)

Humanity (( in rifts earth)) has never agreed to the giving of land to Aliens. We were invaded and are repelling invasion.

What invasion? Invasion implies intent. 99% of the D-Bees on Earth have no intent to invade land, they just gotta survive just as we do.

It's taken us 300 years to get out of the dark ages that the inital invasion has caused, but now Humanity is clawing it's way back up.

And? Where does that give us the right to push around people clawing their way back up from "lost several infinities from home"?

Also, unlike your analogy, the CS has no legal claim to the land Lazlo is built on.

HUMANS have legal claim. It's OUR PLANET. We never agreed to Alien colonization. We were attacked during natural disasters and forced to claw our way back to dominance on our own planet.

The HUMANS of Lazlo agreed.

In a universe where everything is fair and people can just claim other planets for their own, you might have an arguement. Humanity as a whole on rifts earth highly dissagrees. They see it as OUR planet that's been invaded. Not 'Land for all'.

But they don't disagree as a whole. In fact, the number of predominantly human communities that reject D-Bees outright are in fact very small. The CS, Free Quebec, NGR (which we've established is slowly changing that policy), Cordoba, and maybe Melbourne and Perth. Even Colombia accepts Dwarves and Elves.

The Coalition States is not the Imperium of Man. They are the biggest option, not the best choice of a bad lot.

They're not the only choice by far. They are just currently in the US, the option with the best chance, at present. I don't think the CS is 100% good. Not by far. Many of their actions are horrid. Their views of DBees is governed by 300 years of fear and due to that, are often wrong. Not every DBee is evil. But after 300 years of fighting the evil ones, "Better safe than sorry. Humans first" is a mindset easily understood.

"Humans First" sure. "Genocide", "Ignorance", and "Fascism" ? Less so. Justification doesn't make your actions any less evil. It just means you're not a card-carrying member of the Baby-Eaters Club.

It depends on how you define evil. (( Which there's been threads that haven't even been close to doing so.)) By INTENT, ---MOST--- of the CS are not evil. MOST of the CS military fight the Dbees because they ---honestly--- believe that they're evil alien invaders and fighting them makes their husbands and wives and children at home safer. SOME of the CS leaders are evil, perhaps even MOST CS leaders are evil, but even in their evil, they 'help' humanity as a whole. It's a tricky dichotomy. "Evil leaders using a good populace to further their power, by protecting and growing humanity, so that they have more to control over, to help humanity, to retake the planet"

I'm sure.. 100s if not 1000s of years down the road. Should the CS "Win" and there only be humans left... things would change. But as of now, they're still the underdogs fighting the 'good' fight.

The Coalition States are, even weakened from Tolkien, still the largest single force in North America. That's not an Underdog by any definition of the word.

They're Underdogs when compaired to all the alien invaders on the planet. Compaired to Atlantis, all of earth is an underdog. Sure if the NGR and CS and Japan, and New Navy, and England, and all the other humans on earth teamed up. They might put a DENT into the forces standing on Atlantis at any one point, but doesn't the head sploog have multiple PLANETS WORTH of back up he can rift in in short order? I think someone said 'Trillions" of troops? (( Could be wrong there. it's be a long time since i read and noted exact numbers from world book 2.))

But the CS isn't fighting Atlantis, are they? Outside of trade and slave raiding, the Splynncryth pretty much leaves everybody on Earth to their own devices. They don't count. To be an Underdog, there must be active competition/conflict.

Yes, the CS are the most powerful human nation in North America. But globally they can't take the entire planet.

Thankfully. But that has nothing to do with North America.

The individual goodness of people within a government means nothing when the government itself is doing evil.

I'd say it means alot. Especially when the government is securing mankind's existance on our own planet.

But they're not. They're not fighting the Splugorth, they're not fighting the Xiticix. The CS has done little more than take potshots at any real threat to Humanity on Earth. They just went to mess with a predominantly Human nation that left them alone for seventy years and was friendly towards them before that. That's not "securing mankind's existence".

I'm not saying the People of the CS are Evil. The Government of the CS is Evil, and since they are calling the shots, that means the Coalition States are the Bad Guys.

No. It means the leaders of the CS are Evil. Again, the CS does alot of good. it's the stable government in NA for humanity on our own planet. They're allies with the NGR and are feeding the NGR and giving military support to another human nation in need. [/quote]

Nothern Gun. Manistique Imperium. Lazo, New Lazo. The Colorado Baronies. All are stable governments. For most of them, the only thing unstable about them is the threat of, guess who?

I'm sure there were plenty of crewmen on the Death Star that were good people.

And all those indipendant contractors!!

In fact, there's a novel about that. Did that mean the Empire was the Good Guy? Underdogs fighting the good fight to maintain order in the Galaxy?

The Rebles were the underdogs, rebelling against the Sith Lead Empire that after thousands of years had fallen into the state it was in.

Thing is... people forget. All in all. The "Empire" for all the plublicity it gets. Wasn't really in power all that long. It's easily argued less than one generation of Empire rule in the galaxy. From the time the Twins were born till Luke was 18-24ish. A long time and it sucked, but speaking in Galactic terms.. not THAT long at all. Heck Luke's in his 60s now and still going. There's been at least three major government changes since "Return of the Jedi".

Not the point. Did you not claim the CS aren't bad guys because the majority of soldiers believed in their cause?

How about Gundam? The Cyclops Team sure were great guys. Ranba Ral was a great guy. Norris Packard, Yuri Kellarney, Lalah Sune.... Hell, Gundam is littered with the corpses (and parts thereof) of Zeon/Titans/OZ/ZAFT/Omni Enforcer/A-Laws/etc... troops who where good people. But as long as monsters like Ghiren Zabi, Murata Azrael, Ribbons Almark, and Jamitov Hyman were in charge of their factions, they were the Bad Guys.

Still don't know Gundam. bla bla bla is all I got out of that reference. lol Sorry.

See by above point. Belief in your cause does not save you from being a bad guy. It just makes you a more compelling one.

Or how about The Avengers? Remember that guy in Germany who stood up to Loki? Would you not say he was old enough to have served in World War II? If so, which army did you think he served in?

mmmmm It's been a month or two since I saw the movie, but I think he was speakin' English? I honestly don't remember. I thought it was cool he stood up to Loki.

Or did you mean Captain A and Iron man?[/quote]

Loki: "There are no men like me."
Old Man: "There are always men like you."

And the man in question was German.

This is what Greying means. Nice guys on the front lines doesn't keep your side from being bad.

nor does bad guys at the top mean you're all evil. Just like Germany in WWII. Not all Germans were evil just because Hitler and the SS were.

But nonetheless, Nazi Germany had to be stopped. Though many German soldiers honestly believed that they were pulling their country from an unfair surrender (partially right) and fighting communism (how's that for ironic?) Nazi Germany was the bad guys because they had an Evil man and his cronies in charge using them to do Bad things.[/quote]

(( Note. I took like an hour and wrote out a reply. The HTML won't let me post (( Some 5 quotes thing)) I tried to clean it so it'd post for like 10 min. It still wont let me. If you'd like to read the reply I can PM it to ya. Lol I'd hate for it to go to waste but the forum is fightin' me. ))

[Nightmask]

To be honest imo both sides are both wrong and right . Both sides of the SOT were evil and to a certain extent at least in their minds fought for a noble cause. Both CS cause and the Tolkien started out for a good purpose and in the end was anything but imo. Both sides commited atrocities and sometimes noble deeds. Either way imo both sides of the SOT probably did not expect what would happen.

The problem with that is both sides weren't so simplistically evil, as one group keeps insisting. Tolkeen was clearly good and became evil due to the war and the efforts to protect everything that mattered to them. Tolkeen wasn't an 'evil empire' which the CS has always been, it was a good empire that slid into evil by the choices made to fight back.

1.) Tolkeen is stated as "sliding" and preping for war once Creed took over so the first part of your statement is wrong.
2.) The CS has not "always been an evil empire" the books REPEATEDLY say that the CS became the "Evil" empire once Karl took control. Making the second part of your statement again false.

You're free to hold whatever opinions you want, no matter how wrong they might be. Tolkeen was clearly good, preparing to defend yourself against an aggressor intending to kill you all isn't evil and certainly doesn't make Tolkeen evil and the CS was clearly evil all along and was never good before, during, or after it's genocidal attack on the population of Tolkeen.

[camk4evr]

I've a question. Some people have said that Tolkeen could have used magic to transport their population away and I started thinking about this and came up with an odd thought. If they had access to spells that could be used transport the population away then wouldn't it just be easier to transport a few dozen demons, bombs, fusion blocks, or whatever into Chi-town?

[Nightmask]

I've a question. Some people have said that Tolkeen could have used magic to transport their population away and I started thinking about this and came up with an odd thought. If they had access to spells that could be used transport the population away then wouldn't it just be easier to transport a few dozen demons, bombs, fusion blocks, or whatever into Chi-town?

That is a point that's been debated ad nauseum, some even arguing that since it's not been said to happen that Chi-Town is somehow protected against teleportation while others just go 'just part of the bad writing plot immunity that the CS enjoys'.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

To be honest imo both sides are both wrong and right . Both sides of the SOT were evil and to a certain extent at least in their minds fought for a noble cause. Both CS cause and the Tolkien started out for a good purpose and in the end was anything but imo. Both sides commited atrocities and sometimes noble deeds. Either way imo both sides of the SOT probably did not expect what would happen.

The problem with that is both sides weren't so simplistically evil, as one group keeps insisting. Tolkeen was clearly good and became evil due to the war and the efforts to protect everything that mattered to them. Tolkeen wasn't an 'evil empire' which the CS has always been, it was a good empire that slid into evil by the choices made to fight back.

1.) Tolkeen is stated as "sliding" and preping for war once Creed took over so the first part of your statement is wrong.
2.) The CS has not "always been an evil empire" the books REPEATEDLY say that the CS became the "Evil" empire once Karl took control. Making the second part of your statement again false.

You're free to hold whatever opinions you want, no matter how wrong they might be. Tolkeen was clearly good, preparing to defend yourself against an aggressor intending to kill you all isn't evil and certainly doesn't make Tolkeen evil and the CS was clearly evil all along and was never good before, during, or after it's genocidal attack on the population of Tolkeen.

Well if you are going to disagree with is actually canon, that states Tolkeen did turn to evil, then I'm just going to take it as your don't have the siege of Tolkeen series.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I've a question. Some people have said that Tolkeen could have used magic to transport their population away and I started thinking about this and came up with an odd thought. If they had access to spells that could be used transport the population away then wouldn't it just be easier to transport a few dozen demons, bombs, fusion blocks, or whatever into Chi-town?

That is a point that's been debated ad nauseum, some even arguing that since it's not been said to happen that Chi-Town is somehow protected against teleportation while others just go 'just part of the bad writing plot immunity that the CS enjoys'.

Even if that did happen I don't see it working out like some think it might.

[Killer Cyborg]

I've a question. Some people have said that Tolkeen could have used magic to transport their population away and I started thinking about this and came up with an odd thought. If they had access to spells that could be used transport the population away then wouldn't it just be easier to transport a few dozen demons, bombs, fusion blocks, or whatever into Chi-town?

That is a point that's been debated ad nauseum, some even arguing that since it's not been said to happen that Chi-Town is somehow protected against teleportation while others just go 'just part of the bad writing plot immunity that the CS enjoys'.

Even if that did happen I don't see it working out like some think it might.

My view is that it probably HAS happened.
But just like terrorist attacks against nations in the real world, it kills some people, makes some people mad... and that's it.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I've a question. Some people have said that Tolkeen could have used magic to transport their population away and I started thinking about this and came up with an odd thought. If they had access to spells that could be used transport the population away then wouldn't it just be easier to transport a few dozen demons, bombs, fusion blocks, or whatever into Chi-town?

That is a point that's been debated ad nauseum, some even arguing that since it's not been said to happen that Chi-Town is somehow protected against teleportation while others just go 'just part of the bad writing plot immunity that the CS enjoys'.

Even if that did happen I don't see it working out like some think it might.

My view is that it probably HAS happened.
But just like terrorist attacks against nations in the real world, it kills some people, makes some people mad... and that's it.

Yup not the bringing down the empire effect, but more throwing stones at a hornet nest effect.

[camk4evr]

I've a question. Some people have said that Tolkeen could have used magic to transport their population away and I started thinking about this and came up with an odd thought. If they had access to spells that could be used transport the population away then wouldn't it just be easier to transport a few dozen demons, bombs, fusion blocks, or whatever into Chi-town?

That is a point that's been debated ad nauseum, some even arguing that since it's not been said to happen that Chi-Town is somehow protected against teleportation while others just go 'just part of the bad writing plot immunity that the CS enjoys'.

Even if that did happen I don't see it working out like some think it might.

Ok sorry. Failure on my part to explain properly. Let's me try it again.

Tolkeen obviously didn't magically teleport/rift/whatever large numbers of troops/explosives/demons/monsters around the battlefield, into Chi-town or other CS city, nor onto the farms that feed the CS (we know this because it would have been mentioned in the books) so why would it work to move larger numbers of panicy, (relatively) disorganized and undisciplened civillians?

[Pepsi Jedi]

I've a question. Some people have said that Tolkeen could have used magic to transport their population away and I started thinking about this and came up with an odd thought. If they had access to spells that could be used transport the population away then wouldn't it just be easier to transport a few dozen demons, bombs, fusion blocks, or whatever into Chi-town?

That is a point that's been debated ad nauseum, some even arguing that since it's not been said to happen that Chi-Town is somehow protected against teleportation while others just go 'just part of the bad writing plot immunity that the CS enjoys'.

Even if that did happen I don't see it working out like some think it might.

Ok sorry. Failure on my part to explain properly. Let's me try it again.

Tolkeen obviously didn't magically teleport/rift/whatever large numbers of troops/explosives/demons/monsters around the battlefield, into Chi-town or other CS city, nor onto the farms that feed the CS (we know this because it would have been mentioned in the books) so why would it work to move larger numbers of panicy, (relatively) disorganized and undisciplened civillians?

I can't speak for others, but the Evacuation, and relocation plans I've put forth don't need teleportation of masses of people to work. Boiled totally down to just bare bones.

1) Scout an area well out of CS reach.
2) Secure and fortify (Militarily) the area.
3) Start pilgramages from Tolkeen. Starting with those able to build the infrastructure. The enginers, construction people. Those with magic to make this easier (( Elemental magic, stone magic, nature magic, ect) All the millions and millions spent on mercs can be spent to secure the pilgramages. Mercs to defend them, along with their own magical capibilities. ((Dragons are great for this, with supernatural strength they can carry huge loads. Most can fly. They're magical and provide teleportation of FORCE multipliers. Ect))
4) When the first pilgramages get there, they start using their abilities and knowledge to build up the 'New city" with in the new area as per pre planed design. Naturally this would be to get power sources on line. Water. Then other infrastructure. It would be designed from the ground up to be defendable by the military already present and in case, in the future if threats come, to put the most important things in places where they can be defended but wouldn't hurt civilians if hit.
5) Keep up the pilgramages. As the city is being built, more can move into place, which gives more ability to build and advance the city.
6) Keep the defenses of "Old"Tolkeen manned.
7) when you've gotten 3/5s to 3/4ths of the people moved, you move the 'stuff' be it the books in the library, or the artifacts. The "Stuff" that you can't just build in the new area. If you're keeping the location 100% secret. (( hard to do.)) you do this via magic or at least aided with by magic. If not, the Black Market excells in this. (( So the new book tells you REPEATEDLY. lol ))
in the end, you're left with the city being maned by a defense force and skeleton crew. At this point you would probably want to rig it to destruct. To keep your 'secrets' out of the CS hands. All that power pumped through the pyramids and stuff can be set to overload or whatever.
9) Then.. poof. the last defense forces pull out. The city goes 'boom' and hopefully you've done so in a way that makes it look like they had some sort of magical accident and nuked themselves with thier own naughty naughty magic. (( The destruction of 'old Tolkeen' prevents it's usage by hostile forces. Be it demons or the CS it self or folks from the Fed or some huge merc army. ect.))


Again, This is bare bones and each step has loads of detail you could go into. But it's how, well with in the decade lead up... if Tolkeen had not embraced evil (( DOVE INTO IT)) they could have relocated well out of the CS reach and 'avoided war'. Should that choice have been made, as was urged by every ally they had.

[Sureshot]

1.) Tolkeen is stated as "sliding" and preping for war once Creed took over so the first part of your statement is wrong.
.

It happened because they saw the CS were gearing up to attack them. If an enemy starts to circle your home do you not start trying to defend yourself. Tolkien was good at first and became evil later. They did not start out as a predominantly evil organization.

2.) The CS has not "always been an evil empire" the books REPEATEDLY say that the CS became the "Evil" empire once Karl took control. Making the second part of your statement again false.

I stand corrected yet ulitmately imo it means nothing that they were good in the past. Those in power have and will make damn sure that nothing is going to change and that their grasp on power will be unchallenged. Those that are good in the CS have to remain under the radar.

[Lenwen]

2.) The CS has not "always been an evil empire" the books REPEATEDLY say that the CS became the "Evil" empire once Karl took control. Making the second part of your statement again false.

Books and pages please which support your claim?

[Pepsi Jedi]

1.) Tolkeen is stated as "sliding" and preping for war once Creed took over so the first part of your statement is wrong.
.

It happened because they saw the CS were gearing up to attack them. If an enemy starts to circle your home do you not start trying to defend yourself. Tolkien was good at first and became evil later. They did not start out as a predominantly evil organization.

2.) The CS has not "always been an evil empire" the books REPEATEDLY say that the CS became the "Evil" empire once Karl took control. Making the second part of your statement again false.

I stand corrected yet ulitmately imo it means nothing that they were good in the past. Those in power have and will make damn sure that nothing is going to change and that their grasp on power will be unchallenged. Those that are good in the CS have to remain under the radar.

Were you purposefully trying to be ironic?

"ulitmately imo it means nothing that they were good in the past."

Would mean that ultimately it means nothing that Tolkeen was good in the past. They were evil in the end. Right?

[camk4evr]

I can't speak for others, but the Evacuation, and relocation plans I've put forth don't need teleportation of masses of people to work. Boiled totally down to just bare bones.

1) Scout an area well out of CS reach.
2) Secure and fortify (Militarily) the area.
3) Start pilgramages from Tolkeen. Starting with those able to build the infrastructure. The enginers, construction people. Those with magic to make this easier (( Elemental magic, stone magic, nature magic, ect) All the millions and millions spent on mercs can be spent to secure the pilgramages. Mercs to defend them, along with their own magical capibilities. ((Dragons are great for this, with supernatural strength they can carry huge loads. Most can fly. They're magical and provide teleportation of FORCE multipliers. Ect))
4) When the first pilgramages get there, they start using their abilities and knowledge to build up the 'New city" with in the new area as per pre planed design. Naturally this would be to get power sources on line. Water. Then other infrastructure. It would be designed from the ground up to be defendable by the military already present and in case, in the future if threats come, to put the most important things in places where they can be defended but wouldn't hurt civilians if hit.
5) Keep up the pilgramages. As the city is being built, more can move into place, which gives more ability to build and advance the city.
6) Keep the defenses of "Old"Tolkeen manned.
7) when you've gotten 3/5s to 3/4ths of the people moved, you move the 'stuff' be it the books in the library, or the artifacts. The "Stuff" that you can't just build in the new area. If you're keeping the location 100% secret. (( hard to do.)) you do this via magic or at least aided with by magic. If not, the Black Market excells in this. (( So the new book tells you REPEATEDLY. lol ))
in the end, you're left with the city being maned by a defense force and skeleton crew. At this point you would probably want to rig it to destruct. To keep your 'secrets' out of the CS hands. All that power pumped through the pyramids and stuff can be set to overload or whatever.
9) Then.. poof. the last defense forces pull out. The city goes 'boom' and hopefully you've done so in a way that makes it look like they had some sort of magical accident and nuked themselves with thier own naughty naughty magic. (( The destruction of 'old Tolkeen' prevents it's usage by hostile forces. Be it demons or the CS it self or folks from the Fed or some huge merc army. ect.))

It's a good plan PJ and it would have worked. There's just a few issues with it:

1) They had four years to implement it (according to thr RMB, the CS had only started sending troops on recon and S&D missions into Minnesota in 101 PA and the war started in 105 PA according to SOT1). Less than that really as the council (or whatever it was that governed Tolkeen) would need time to debate the evacuation and then they'd have to convince the populous.

2) They had allies (or, at least, reasonbly friendly nations who they expected would ally with them, or both) until just before the war, so they had reason to believe that they wouldn't be facing the CS alone and therefore it's likely they wouldn't have seen the need to come up with an evacuation plan.

3) the CS was at war with Free Quebec and while Quebec would (likely) eventually be defeated, the war would have seriously weakened the Coalition enough that it would be years before they could threaten Tolkeen. Besides, only a fool would start a war with someone when thet're already fighting another war.

[V-Origin]

Who gives Earth Born Humans the right to claim that they are greater than any other Dimensional Being (D-Bee)?

Who gives Earth Born Humans the right to claim Earth as their own territory and no one else's?

Ultimately, Earth as a planet belongs to the Gods and Source Forge who created this planet.

Earth Born Humans should recognize that there are several races of Dimensional Beings who are much higher than them in the evolutionary scale.

The CS should and will be destroyed for having the temerity and arrogance to claim that they are better than other beings.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I can't speak for others, but the Evacuation, and relocation plans I've put forth don't need teleportation of masses of people to work. Boiled totally down to just bare bones.

1) Scout an area well out of CS reach.
2) Secure and fortify (Militarily) the area.
3) Start pilgramages from Tolkeen. Starting with those able to build the infrastructure. The enginers, construction people. Those with magic to make this easier (( Elemental magic, stone magic, nature magic, ect) All the millions and millions spent on mercs can be spent to secure the pilgramages. Mercs to defend them, along with their own magical capibilities. ((Dragons are great for this, with supernatural strength they can carry huge loads. Most can fly. They're magical and provide teleportation of FORCE multipliers. Ect))
4) When the first pilgramages get there, they start using their abilities and knowledge to build up the 'New city" with in the new area as per pre planed design. Naturally this would be to get power sources on line. Water. Then other infrastructure. It would be designed from the ground up to be defendable by the military already present and in case, in the future if threats come, to put the most important things in places where they can be defended but wouldn't hurt civilians if hit.
5) Keep up the pilgramages. As the city is being built, more can move into place, which gives more ability to build and advance the city.
6) Keep the defenses of "Old"Tolkeen manned.
7) when you've gotten 3/5s to 3/4ths of the people moved, you move the 'stuff' be it the books in the library, or the artifacts. The "Stuff" that you can't just build in the new area. If you're keeping the location 100% secret. (( hard to do.)) you do this via magic or at least aided with by magic. If not, the Black Market excells in this. (( So the new book tells you REPEATEDLY. lol ))
in the end, you're left with the city being maned by a defense force and skeleton crew. At this point you would probably want to rig it to destruct. To keep your 'secrets' out of the CS hands. All that power pumped through the pyramids and stuff can be set to overload or whatever.
9) Then.. poof. the last defense forces pull out. The city goes 'boom' and hopefully you've done so in a way that makes it look like they had some sort of magical accident and nuked themselves with thier own naughty naughty magic. (( The destruction of 'old Tolkeen' prevents it's usage by hostile forces. Be it demons or the CS it self or folks from the Fed or some huge merc army. ect.))

It's a good plan PJ and it would have worked. There's just a few issues with it:

1) They had four years to implement it (according to thr RMB, the CS had only started sending troops on recon and S&D missions into Minnesota in 101 PA and the war started in 105 PA according to SOT1). Less than that really as the council (or whatever it was that governed Tolkeen) would need time to debate the evacuation and then they'd have to convince the populous.

Tolkeen has known the CS was coming for years. There was a full decade of Military build up -after- the decision to fight instead of run was made. If you used those years to run, you'd have plenty of time before the CS came down on ya.

2) They had allies (or, at least, reasonbly friendly nations who they expected would ally with them, or both) until just before the war, so they had reason to believe that they wouldn't be facing the CS alone and therefore it's likely they wouldn't have seen the need to come up with an evacuation plan.

They had allies till it got out how evil they'd become. Even during the war allies like HALF the Cyberknights were on their side (( even with TOLKEEN forces killing and eating them)) The prroblem was from the ---start---- all of Tolkeens allies agreed on one thing. "You can NOT WIN. You should RUN". Not one but TWO of the magical "powers" agreed that ALL of the magical powers united would ----ALL DIE--- if they teamed up. It wasn't like they sat around waffeling. They looked at it and went "Hey Tolkeen even if you, and us, and everyone teamed up. We'd all die. It'd take longer but we'd all die..so we're not teamin' up. You need to get out of dodge!" Where in the now evil tolkeen's reply was 'Frak you guys. We'll do it on our own! You'll see!!!!"

3) the CS was at war with Free Quebec and while Quebec would (likely) eventually be defeated, the war would have seriously weakened the Coalition enough that it would be years before they could threaten Tolkeen. Besides, only a fool would start a war with someone when thet're already fighting another war.

...... Isn't that what happened? The CS had a (( pretty minor to be honest)) War with FQ. They were "at war" but the CS wasn't full out balls to the wall with it. It wasn't full scaled overwhelming invasion. The navy really traded blows, but the war wasn't that.... I don't want to sound like I'm minimizing it.. but the CS wasn't "All in" in the FQ war. They WERE having a war in two places till the now evil Tolkeen sent armies of demons to kill CS troops with a wink and a nod to FQ, kinda "Hey you're at war, we're gonna help you out and kill some CS with this army of Demons. You can watch" and FQ went "Army of demons?? Against humans? No.. That's my Big brother! NOONE PICKS ON HIM BUT ME!! You wanna use Demons against humans, you gotta go through US FIRST Mother fraker!" and it was that act which caused a pretty gigantic thing from the CS. When they saw FQ laying down their lives to protect fellow humans from monsters and demons, Karl, the Diabolic leader of the CS, totally took responsibility for the war with FQ. Said he was WRONG. Apologized, and pledged support and friend ship and recognized FQ's sovereignty. That was/is a -----huge----- thing for the CS to have done. Admit it was wrong??? The Emp taking personal responsibility??? Even his advisers were blown away. Apologize publicly!?!?!? Whoo. That was a bigger thing for the CS than beating Tolkeen. -----------------Everyone------------------ except tolkeen it self knew the CS would win in the war against tolkeen. Everyone. ---NOONE--- Thought the CS/Emp Karl would ----EEEEVER----- Admit wrong doing and apoligise for ------ANYTHING-----.

[Mercdog]

There are numerous references to CS policy toward Tolkeen to be found in the CWC book. Mentions of stationing troops along the kingdom's borders to prevent aid or reinforcement, cutting off supply lines years prior, disruption of communications, conquering neighboring allied kingdoms to deny support, military units being sent on search and destroy missions against the kingdom for up to six years before the book's "current" date of 105 PA, and so on.

By 99 PA, the writing was clearly on the wall.

Just as a note, I was skimming through the SoT books last night, and found that the militirization of Tolkeen began in 88 PA with King Creed's ascencion. And while this was ostensibly for defense, it says something in the book along the lines of King Creed wanting to 'Teach the CS the meaning of fear'. Hardly a noble sentiment.

If I understood correctly, Tolkeen actually started their military build up of war machines before the CS had begun to upgrade their own.

I feel bad for the rank and file soldiers who were sent to slaughter, and the innocents that were killed, but bottom line, the leaders on both sides -wanted- this fight. While the CS -WAS- the aggressor in the siege, the Tolkeenites were hardly blameless.

As far as the whole 'Was Tolkeen Evil?' The rank and file humans and d-bees, no. The demons, definitely. But of the leading Council of 12, 75% were.

Just throwin' that out there.

[Lenwen]

There are numerous references to CS policy toward Tolkeen to be found in the CWC book. Mentions of stationing troops along the kingdom's borders to prevent aid or reinforcement, cutting off supply lines years prior, disruption of communications, conquering neighboring allied kingdoms to deny support, military units being sent on search and destroy missions against the kingdom for up to six years before the book's "current" date of 105 PA, and so on.

By 99 PA, the writing was clearly on the wall.

Just as a note, I was skimming through the SoT books last night, and found that the militirization of Tolkeen began in 88 PA with King Creed's ascencion. And while this was ostensibly for defense, it says something in the book along the lines of King Creed wanting to 'Teach the CS the meaning of fear'. Hardly a noble sentiment.

If I understood correctly, Tolkeen actually started their military build up of war machines before the CS had begun to upgrade their own.

I feel bad for the rank and file soldiers who were sent to slaughter, and the innocents that were killed, but bottom line, the leaders on both sides -wanted- this fight. While the CS -WAS- the aggressor in the siege, the Tolkeenites were hardly blameless.

As far as the whole 'Was Tolkeen Evil?' The rank and file humans and d-bees, no. The demons, definitely. But of the leading Council of 12, 75% were.

Just throwin' that out there.

So then the question is as follows..

Do you think Tolkeen building a defensive military is cause enough to warrant an invasion ?

[Mercdog]

There are numerous references to CS policy toward Tolkeen to be found in the CWC book. Mentions of stationing troops along the kingdom's borders to prevent aid or reinforcement, cutting off supply lines years prior, disruption of communications, conquering neighboring allied kingdoms to deny support, military units being sent on search and destroy missions against the kingdom for up to six years before the book's "current" date of 105 PA, and so on.

By 99 PA, the writing was clearly on the wall.

Just as a note, I was skimming through the SoT books last night, and found that the militirization of Tolkeen began in 88 PA with King Creed's ascencion. And while this was ostensibly for defense, it says something in the book along the lines of King Creed wanting to 'Teach the CS the meaning of fear'. Hardly a noble sentiment.

If I understood correctly, Tolkeen actually started their military build up of war machines before the CS had begun to upgrade their own.

I feel bad for the rank and file soldiers who were sent to slaughter, and the innocents that were killed, but bottom line, the leaders on both sides -wanted- this fight. While the CS -WAS- the aggressor in the siege, the Tolkeenites were hardly blameless.

As far as the whole 'Was Tolkeen Evil?' The rank and file humans and d-bees, no. The demons, definitely. But of the leading Council of 12, 75% were.

Just throwin' that out there.

So then the question is as follows..

Do you think Tolkeen building a defensive military is cause enough to warrant an invasion ?

Well, were I a paranoid military power like the CS, with a known vendetta against magic users, and I had intelligence of a nearby magical kingdom undergoing a sustained military build up?

Then yes. I would probably opt for 'Get them before they can get us' a pre-emptive strike. Though I wouldn't have given them 20 years to build up their arsenal before striking.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

There are numerous references to CS policy toward Tolkeen to be found in the CWC book. Mentions of stationing troops along the kingdom's borders to prevent aid or reinforcement, cutting off supply lines years prior, disruption of communications, conquering neighboring allied kingdoms to deny support, military units being sent on search and destroy missions against the kingdom for up to six years before the book's "current" date of 105 PA, and so on.

By 99 PA, the writing was clearly on the wall.

Just as a note, I was skimming through the SoT books last night, and found that the militirization of Tolkeen began in 88 PA with King Creed's ascencion. And while this was ostensibly for defense, it says something in the book along the lines of King Creed wanting to 'Teach the CS the meaning of fear'. Hardly a noble sentiment.

If I understood correctly, Tolkeen actually started their military build up of war machines before the CS had begun to upgrade their own.

I feel bad for the rank and file soldiers who were sent to slaughter, and the innocents that were killed, but bottom line, the leaders on both sides -wanted- this fight. While the CS -WAS- the aggressor in the siege, the Tolkeenites were hardly blameless.

As far as the whole 'Was Tolkeen Evil?' The rank and file humans and d-bees, no. The demons, definitely. But of the leading Council of 12, 75% were.

Just throwin' that out there.

So then the question is as follows..

Do you think Tolkeen building a defensive military is cause enough to warrant an invasion ?

Well, were I a paranoid military power like the CS, with a known vendetta against magic users, and I had intelligence of a nearby magical kingdom undergoing a sustained military build up?

Then yes. I would probably opt for 'Get them before they can get us' a pre-emptive strike. Though I wouldn't have given them 20 years to build up their arsenal before striking.

because that mindset worked so well with FOM in 12 pa

[Lenwen]

Though I wouldn't have given them 20 years to build up their arsenal before striking.

Who said Tolkeen had 20 yrs to build up ?

The CS had forces actively trying to cut off Tolkeen .. as early as 98PA .. CWC is the 1 who verified that .. its canon.

And Tolkeen started to build up its military as early as what was it again .. 101 ? Can some one verify when it was Tolkeen actually started to build up its military ?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Though I wouldn't have given them 20 years to build up their arsenal before striking.

Who said Tolkeen had 20 yrs to build up ?

The CS had forces actively trying to cut off Tolkeen .. as early as 98PA .. CWC is the 1 who verified that .. its canon.

And Tolkeen started to build up its military as early as what was it again .. 101 ? Can some one verify when it was Tolkeen actually started to build up its military ?

Is this a house story?,because all the canon states different, but if you want offer up some page numbers on it, I will be happy to verified it for you.

[Nightmask]

Though I wouldn't have given them 20 years to build up their arsenal before striking.

Who said Tolkeen had 20 yrs to build up ?

The CS had forces actively trying to cut off Tolkeen .. as early as 98PA .. CWC is the 1 who verified that .. its canon.

And Tolkeen started to build up its military as early as what was it again .. 101 ? Can some one verify when it was Tolkeen actually started to build up its military ?

Does it really matter? The CS was always building its military and making it clear it was going to eliminate all non-humans (then expanded that to include mages as well), Tolkeen quite understandably did what any other nation does when its neighbor starts building up forces it started building up forces for protection as well. You don't see North Korea building up troops and moving them towards its borders without South Korea reacting by building up as well. If you don't put up defenses when your neighbor is building up like that you end up like Kuwait, conquered in no time flat and needing outside help just to restore your autonomy.

[Mercdog]

Though I wouldn't have given them 20 years to build up their arsenal before striking.

Who said Tolkeen had 20 yrs to build up ?

The CS had forces actively trying to cut off Tolkeen .. as early as 98PA .. CWC is the 1 who verified that .. its canon.

And Tolkeen started to build up its military as early as what was it again .. 101 ? Can some one verify when it was Tolkeen actually started to build up its military ?

Again, according to what I noticed last night, the Tolkeen military build up began with the ascension of King Creed around 88 or 89 PA. So, maybe not 20 years. Perhaps 16 or 17 years. It's in the timeline section in SoT 1.

But I'm sure you'll disagree.

I for one, am not going to quibble about it anymore. I've already said what I wanted to on the subject.

[Mercdog]

There are numerous references to CS policy toward Tolkeen to be found in the CWC book. Mentions of stationing troops along the kingdom's borders to prevent aid or reinforcement, cutting off supply lines years prior, disruption of communications, conquering neighboring allied kingdoms to deny support, military units being sent on search and destroy missions against the kingdom for up to six years before the book's "current" date of 105 PA, and so on.

By 99 PA, the writing was clearly on the wall.

Just as a note, I was skimming through the SoT books last night, and found that the militirization of Tolkeen began in 88 PA with King Creed's ascencion. And while this was ostensibly for defense, it says something in the book along the lines of King Creed wanting to 'Teach the CS the meaning of fear'. Hardly a noble sentiment.

If I understood correctly, Tolkeen actually started their military build up of war machines before the CS had begun to upgrade their own.

I feel bad for the rank and file soldiers who were sent to slaughter, and the innocents that were killed, but bottom line, the leaders on both sides -wanted- this fight. While the CS -WAS- the aggressor in the siege, the Tolkeenites were hardly blameless.

As far as the whole 'Was Tolkeen Evil?' The rank and file humans and d-bees, no. The demons, definitely. But of the leading Council of 12, 75% were.

Just throwin' that out there.

So then the question is as follows..

Do you think Tolkeen building a defensive military is cause enough to warrant an invasion ?

Well, were I a paranoid military power like the CS, with a known vendetta against magic users, and I had intelligence of a nearby magical kingdom undergoing a sustained military build up?

Then yes. I would probably opt for 'Get them before they can get us' a pre-emptive strike. Though I wouldn't have given them 20 years to build up their arsenal before striking.

because that mindset worked so well with FOM in 12 pa

Never said it was a smart move.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah, but the CS -did- win.....

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Yeah, but the CS -did- win.....

Yup one more for the good guys

[V-Origin]

Yeah, but the CS -did- win.....

Yup one more for the good guys

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=106620

In my game, Tolkeen's military was bolstered by an extremely powerful god with billions of troops at its disposal - dragons, skyrapers, splurgoth renegade troops, true atlanteans, Hartigal combine

Tolkeen will fight a staging battle while everything and everyone is moved to the new city near New Lazlo via teleportation gates.. and I do mean everything as in lock, stock and barrel..

Then the defenders will slowly retreat towards the King's tower and fight a guerrilla's battle while setting thousands and thousands of warded traps for the CS troops.. CS casualties would run in the tens of thousands before they even reach the king's tower..

then when the entire CS army is laying seige to the King's Tower, ten thousand battle cruisers and battleships will lay waste to Old Tolkeen.. simply bombard the hell out of Old Tolkeen leaving no one alive while the defenders in the King's Tower retreat to the new city via teleportation gates.. A million CS soldier lives will be sacrificed..

I am sure Prosek will paint this as a "victory" but it will be an extremely costly "victory" with minimal losses to Tolkeen and this victory made Tolkeen into a much more powerful force than ever before..

Tolkeen will become the new game changer.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah, but the CS -did- win.....

Yup one more for the good guys

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=106620

In my game, Tolkeen's military was bolstered by an extremely powerful god with billions of troops at its disposal - dragons, skyrapers, splurgoth renegade troops, true atlanteans, Hartigal combine

Tolkeen will fight a staging battle while everything and everyone is moved to the new city near New Lazlo via teleportation gates.. and I do mean everything as in lock, stock and barrel..

Then the defenders will slowly retreat towards the King's tower and fight a guerrilla's battle while setting thousands and thousands of warded traps for the CS troops.. CS casualties would run in the tens of thousands before they even reach the king's tower..

then when the entire CS army is laying seige to the King's Tower, ten thousand battle cruisers and battleships will lay waste to Old Tolkeen.. simply bombard the hell out of Old Tolkeen leaving no one alive while the defenders in the King's Tower retreat to the new city via teleportation gates.. A million CS soldier lives will be sacrificed..

I am sure Prosek will paint this as a "victory" but it will be an extremely costly "victory" with minimal losses to Tolkeen and this victory made Tolkeen into a much more powerful force than ever before..

Tolkeen will become the new game changer.

If you're going to go that absurdly over the top with it, why go through all the trouble? Wouldn't it just be easier to go "My god moves the city in total to where I want it, and kills all the CS. The end" ?

BILLIONS of troops? TEN THOUSAND Battle Cruisers and battleships? lol. Why go to the effort if it's just an "I win" button?