Geofront vs CS

[Dr Megaverse]

So let's suppose that somehow a stable portal between the Geoffont home base and somewhere in the west/midwest opens up. The Geofront see a strategic opportunity for a back up colony and start building a gigantic underground facility like their own back home. Within a few years they have established a full fledged underground city. They come east and run into the CS, who's response is less than enthusiastic. After a time they try to negotiate, things fall through, for some reason or another hostilities break out.

Question is, with the Geofront and CS both having full miltary capabilities and no outside influences to worry about, which side in your opinion would come out victorius? Is it due to equipment? Tactics? Doctrine? Cultural reasons? Resources?

For the sake of the circumstance assume each side will use the maximum force available with the intent of ending the confrontation as soon as possible. Also assume the Geofront has a minor civillian population of support staff, can call upon their main facilities for resources, and their basing is within 1500 miles of the CS border.

So, what do you think?

[Dr Megaverse]

Since I've never used the Chi system myself I wouldn't have any experience with it. Assume yes unless someone can show a source of Chi in the Americas.

[Giant2005]

The Geofront have far better trained soldiers that can easily dispatch a CS soldier 1v1, they have superior numbers, the potential asset of magic and supposedly superior tech.
Having said that we have descriptions of only a handful of Geofront armaments, a couple of Power Armors and a couple of vehicles.
Without the Geofront being detailed to the same level of the CS, they are at a tactical disadvantage - the CS has detailed assets that the Geofront haven't had counters detailed for.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Geofront gets stomped out and their tech in now added into the coalition war machine,

[Slight001]

Geofront gets stomped out and their tech in now added into the coalition war machine,

This is likely what's going to happen.

I was checking out the Geofront tech (They've been getting a lot of forum time lately) and unless they get an update to include aircraft and other systems for indirect combat none of their tech advances are going to matter. They simply won't find themselves able to close. On top of that as per their book Chi levels and associated effects are reduced that's a huge problem as they seem to matter to a lot to these guys.

By comparison the CS has extensive indirect combat capabilities, as well as Infantry, Powered Armor, fast moving armor and combat experience fighting against better well equipped and desperate forces. They also have their various Psi-Battalions, Psi-Stalkers and Psi-Hounds. I'm sure the RCSG is going to flip and want to study these guys...

[Pepsi Jedi]

Geofront gets stomped out and their tech in now added into the coalition war machine,

This is likely what's going to happen.

I was checking out the Geofront tech (They've been getting a lot of forum time lately) and unless they get an update to include aircraft and other systems for indirect combat none of their tech advances are going to matter. They simply won't find themselves able to close. On top of that as per their book Chi levels and associated effects are reduced that's a huge problem as they seem to matter to a lot to these guys.

By comparison the CS has extensive indirect combat capabilities, as well as Infantry, Powered Armor, fast moving armor and combat experience fighting against better well equipped and desperate forces.

I disagree. Their arsenal isn't as extensive, but IMO their PA and weapons outmatch CS items of the same size.

Does the Geofront have the anti nuclear missile rift generator?

If not, it's a real short fight.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Though I understand the purpose of the OP, I do not feel that there would be any such confrontation, even if the circumstances allowed the Geofront to establish a significant presence in North America. Never mind the CS and whatever actions it might take, I believe the Geofront would not risk a costly and possibly futile war with a foreign power on the other side of the globe when it has much greater concerns in its own backyard.

Now if the Geofront was forced to abandon China in its entirety and relocate to NA, that's a whole different proposition and war is more believable. Not remotely likely, but believable. It would be a case of MAD and both sides would know it...unless the leaders of each faction were deliberately written to be stupid again.

[flatline]

What capability does the CS have to nuke an underground city?

Also, how would they find the underground city to target it?

--flatline

[Pepsi Jedi]

Geofront gets stomped out and their tech in now added into the coalition war machine,

This is likely what's going to happen.

I was checking out the Geofront tech (They've been getting a lot of forum time lately) and unless they get an update to include aircraft and other systems for indirect combat none of their tech advances are going to matter. They simply won't find themselves able to close. On top of that as per their book Chi levels and associated effects are reduced that's a huge problem as they seem to matter to a lot to these guys.

By comparison the CS has extensive indirect combat capabilities, as well as Infantry, Powered Armor, fast moving armor and combat experience fighting against better well equipped and desperate forces.

I disagree. Their arsenal isn't as extensive, but IMO their PA and weapons outmatch CS items of the same size.

Does the Geofront have the anti nuclear missile rift generator?

If not, it's a real short fight.

Awwwww nukes ruin all the fun

I agree. Just being realistic. If there's a 'SERIOUS' threat to the CS. They're not all environmental lovin' peaceniks. They'll hit the button.

[Pepsi Jedi]

What capability does the CS have to nuke an underground city?

Also, how would they find the underground city to target it?

--flatline

In spite of what movies tell you, underground cities wouldn't be that hard to find. They have to transfer air if nothing else. You're talking about massive air intakes and outputs. Easy to find. Power sources. Easy to find. Feeding an entire city, is going to take resources. Resources when depleated are easy to notice. And the CS has Seismic sensors as well, for when the Geofront takes a few decades to try and hollow out said city. And they have to put all that rock and earth somewhere.

As for getting a nuke in. Bunker busters are present now. Even if they didn't have that. The CS has special forces. And have been and will be present the entire time the Geofront is doing this big move and buildup. The entire time the Geofront is moving around the planet. Digging their underground city, moving their people and getting a military build up in NA, the CS will be growing, breeding, and expanding their power and ability.

Even if they don't nuke the underground city, the Geofront isn't able to be threatening if they stay underground. Sooner or later they have to field their troops. Then you can nuke um.

Having a bunch of guns in a hole is cool, but you can't shoot someone from underground miles away. You gotta come up. And then. FOOSH.

[Slight001]

Geofront gets stomped out and their tech in now added into the coalition war machine,

This is likely what's going to happen.

I was checking out the Geofront tech (They've been getting a lot of forum time lately) and unless they get an update to include aircraft and other systems for indirect combat none of their tech advances are going to matter. They simply won't find themselves able to close. On top of that as per their book Chi levels and associated effects are reduced that's a huge problem as they seem to matter to a lot to these guys.

By comparison the CS has extensive indirect combat capabilities, as well as Infantry, Powered Armor, fast moving armor and combat experience fighting against better well equipped and desperate forces.

I disagree. Their arsenal isn't as extensive, but IMO their PA and weapons outmatch CS items of the same size.

Without indirect combat capabilities you're just giving the CS free shots and damage inflicted.

So how many do they have of each type?

Active Military: 1.4 million
Reserve Military: 4.5 million (text says to liberate china... so they might be resistant to the idea of fighting for soil not "their own"...)
- Source pg 121

PA numbers:
Black Tiger = ~6,123 + 28,420 in reserve (pg 150)
- Speed: 55 mph running
Red Falcon = ~3062 + 14,210 in reserve (pg 150)
- Speed: 60 mph ground, 300 mph flying (12 hours max flight time)
Gun Dragon = ~214 + 1926 in reserve (pg 154 "only a dozen have seen action over the years, mainly to test the unit..." and "However, even after the Geofront makes it's move, the Gun Dragon will be used sparingly, the majority (90%) held in reserve as a secret weapon.")
- Speed: 30 mph ground

Body Armor numbers: (pg 148-150)
Standard Brigandine = 500,000
Heavy Brigandine = 100,000
Shadow Armor = everyone... apparently it's also their standard uniform.
Demon Skin = everyone...
Demon Skin Armor = ?

Given these numbers the Geofront can't effectively fight anyone for very long. Yes their PA's might out perform the CS's own units in some area's, but attrition alone will ensure their failure. The massed numbers of Skelebots the CS can field combined with their self-aware military ensures it. Also Don't forget the CS has a field army and each city state has their own defense army ensuring that their field army can function without a pressing need to defend the cities and territories.

Now then... if they keep their Chi tech (stinks of demons and the supernatural) a secret the CS would likely be willing to trade for resources and tech.

[flatline]

What capability does the CS have to nuke an underground city?

Also, how would they find the underground city to target it?

--flatline

In spite of what movies tell you, underground cities wouldn't be that hard to find. They have to transfer air if nothing else. You're talking about massive air intakes and outputs. Easy to find.

You're not even trying, are you?

Ignoring any magical solutions to the problem, if they have plentiful power, they can simply crack carbon dioxide into carbon and oxygen. Use air scrubbers to remove unavoidable pollution. Absolutely no need to pipe air to or from the surface.

Power sources. Easy to find.

How?

They can pump their waste heat below them. The earth absorbs all but the longest and shortest EM wavelengths, neither of which are particularly useful except for specialized applications.

Feeding an entire city, is going to take resources. Resources when depleated are easy to notice.

Grow lights. Hydroponics. Mushrooms. Bringing food through the stable portal mentioned in the original post?

And the CS has Seismic sensors as well, for when the Geofront takes a few decades to try and hollow out said city.

I'm sure the CS has thoroughly mapped all the depths 1500 miles outside their borders. Without being detected of course.

And they have to put all that rock and earth somewhere.

So naturally a city that is being built underground, presumably for it's own protection and concealment, is just going to put big piles of rubble on the surface?

The scenario presented is that they have somehow managed to build the city and, presumably, they wouldn't have built the city if they felt the city couldn't be built without being compromised. Either accept the scenario or leave it alone.

Maybe they send the rubble through the portal to China. Maybe they melt it down into glass and use it as building material. Maybe they magically transmute it into something easier to deal with. There are lots of options.

As for getting a nuke in. Bunker busters are present now.

And what kind of attack do you think a high tech and magical city deep underground is most likely have made preparations against? Maybe a bunker buster?

Wikipedia says a modern bunker buster can go 20 feet into hardened concrete. How far down do you think the city is?

Even if they didn't have that. The CS has special forces. And have been and will be present the entire time the Geofront is doing this big move and buildup. The entire time the Geofront is moving around the planet. Digging their underground city, moving their people and getting a military build up in NA, the CS will be growing, breeding, and expanding their power and ability.

So? There's no reason to believe there's anything exposed on the surface for the special forces to infiltrate. Also, do you really think it likely that a high tech society with magic would leave the surface above and around their city unmonitored? What makes you think the special forces would have any ability to access the city?

Even if they don't nuke the underground city, the Geofront isn't able to be threatening if they stay underground. Sooner or later they have to field their troops. Then you can nuke um.

How big a force do you need to locate before you send nukes? How do you protect your nukes from anti missile fire? I'm not saying that it's impossible to nuke an army (clearly it isn't), but it's not the sure thing you seem to think it is.

Having a bunch of guns in a hole is cool, but you can't shoot someone from underground miles away. You gotta come up. And then. FOOSH.

My previous thread with buried phase weaponry capable of killing every living being in Chi Town begs to differ.

I only know what's been posted about Geofront, so you are almost certainly better informed than I am about its capabilities, but a high tech society with magic has the potential to do things that your beloved CS has no ability to counter. How many of your precious nukes does it take to equal a single dimensional portal from the surface of the sun into CS territory?

I don't actually know the answer to that, but I'm confident that it makes a nuke look like a BB gun.

--flatline

[drewkitty ~..~]

Do the geofront take penalties to their chi for being outside of china?

Since I've never used the Chi system myself I wouldn't have any experience with it. Assume yes unless someone can show a source of Chi in the Americas.

There are no Rifts Books that use the Chi system.

Yes, they Have To take the mystic penalties since they are going outside of the Rifts China sub-dimension.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The only 2 books that use chi system are Ninja and Superspies and Mystic China.

The mystic system in RC 1&2 is a system based in ISP and PPE, not chi.

[Pepsi Jedi]

What capability does the CS have to nuke an underground city?

Also, how would they find the underground city to target it?

--flatline

In spite of what movies tell you, underground cities wouldn't be that hard to find. They have to transfer air if nothing else. You're talking about massive air intakes and outputs. Easy to find.

You're not even trying, are you?

It takes extremely little effort to poke holes in your theory.

Ignoring any magical solutions to the problem,

It's my understanding their magic doesn't work out side of china?

if they have plentiful power, they can simply crack carbon dioxide into carbon and oxygen.

I have both china books can you toss me the page where they have that ability? I'd like to read up on it.

Use air scrubbers to remove unavoidable pollution. Absolutely no need to pipe air to or from the surface.

So you're telling me they have a city, industry, manufacturing, living, breathing, peeing and pooping city underground and "Aboslutely no need to pipe air from the surface"

Again, please show me where they have that ultra advanced technology that lets them do this. Because you're basicly hand waving it and going "Technology" in the same way someone might go "Aliens".

Power sources. Easy to find.

How?

Many ways. The easiest being they put off heat.

They can pump their waste heat below them.

Here on earth, heat rises.

The earth absorbs all but the longest and shortest EM wavelengths, neither of which are particularly useful except for specialized applications.

Radiation. Sound. Vibration. heat. Bi-products (( Sorry but I don't buy the 'Oh they can just magically recycle all waste, and breathe with out air))

Feeding an entire city, is going to take resources. Resources when depleated are easy to notice.

Grow lights. Hydroponics. Mushrooms. Bringing food through the stable portal mentioned in the original post?

Not enough to feed an entire city. Nor will they live on mushrooms and be healthy enough to fight. Nor are you able to just go "magic hole" These are supposedly Geofront in the US. Not "What ever we need from the other side of the planet"

And the CS has Seismic sensors as well, for when the Geofront takes a few decades to try and hollow out said city.

I'm sure the CS has thoroughly mapped all the depths 1500 miles outside their borders. Without being detected of course.

lol As opposed to the Geofront that's some how mapped, discovered the CS, on the other side of the planet, and some how made it THROUGH the planet itself to dig a massive city sized hole undetected with in RANGE of the CS?

LOL

And they have to put all that rock and earth somewhere.

So naturally a city that is being built underground, presumably for it's own protection and concealment, is just going to put big piles of rubble on the surface?

Lol, the better point is, where else do you think it's going to go?

The scenario presented is that they have somehow managed to build the city

NO.. it's not. Original post "The Geofront see a strategic opportunity for a back up colony and -------- start building------- a gigantic underground facility like their own back home."

They didn't just teleport in a gigantic underground city.

and, presumably, they wouldn't have built the city if they felt the city couldn't be built without being compromised. Either accept the scenario or leave it alone.

You asked how they'd be found. I'm poitning out that moving enough earth to excavate a city is massive mountains of earth that need to go somewhere. It'll be noticed if 100s and 1000s of tons of rock start being disgorged around the area.

Maybe they send the rubble through the portal to China.

original post says "No outside influence" and what are they going to do? Dig it out, take it to the surface, truck it to the portal and throw it through into their OTHER hole, filling that one up?

Then the CS would note them moving 1000s of tons of earth from their new hole through to the portal and throwing it through. lol It's not like you can airlift 1000s of tons of rock.

Well you could, in smaller loads, and it'd take forever and it'd get noticed just as easy. lol

Maybe they melt it down into glass and use it as building material.

More heat, more horrible chemicals in the air. More need for air vents and circulation. More power needed which also shows up. More chemical waste, and alot more effort to melt rock and try and reform it.

Maybe they magically transmute it into something easier to deal with. There are lots of options.

Again, I was under the impression that their magic doesnt' work out side of china? And is there a spell for the transmutation of hundreds of thousands of tons of rock?

As for getting a nuke in. Bunker busters are present now.

And what kind of attack do you think a high tech and magical city deep underground is most likely have made preparations against? Maybe a bunker buster?

Do they have such protections in Canon? This is an outpost with minimal civilian support staff. if nothing else the CS could hit um... then again.. and again.. and just bore down. it's not like they can move the underground city.

Wikipedia says a modern bunker buster can go 20 feet into hardened concrete. How far down do you think the city is?

Such wasn't stated in the OP. How far down do you think they're digging this hole unnoticed? lol Digging in the ground is actually pretty hard. Doing so secretly is almost impossible.

Even if they didn't have that. The CS has special forces. And have been and will be present the entire time the Geofront is doing this big move and buildup. The entire time the Geofront is moving around the planet. Digging their underground city, moving their people and getting a military build up in NA, the CS will be growing, breeding, and expanding their power and ability.

So? There's no reason to believe there's anything exposed on the surface for the special forces to infiltrate.

Absurd. There's no way to GET underground with out there being something on the surface. Even if the doors and airvents and such are hidden, they're still present.

HOW DO YOU THINK THEY"RE GOING TO GET OUT??? lol Levitate through the rock? Harsh language?

Also, do you really think it likely that a high tech society with magic

Non working magic.

would leave the surface above and around their city unmonitored?

Do you really think, a city of thousands will not have a way to get out of being underground? And enough to move thousands out, not to mention air and water and such IN? Do you think Special forces are just going to walk around scratching their private parts yelling olly olly oxen free?

What makes you think the special forces would have any ability to access the city?

Because the city needs air enough for thousands of people to breathe. because the city needs power enough for the city and manufacturing. That power will have out put. Because the city will need water for thousands. That has to come into the city some how. Because the city will have to have elevators or ramped tunnels.. so people can.. you know... get out... or else they're just people in a hole with no way out and no threat.... because you can't seal off a city underground or the people will die in very short order. No air. no water. No food. No way out. Equals no threat.

All that stuff has to get in, and on a MASSIVE SCALE to feed and fuel and breathe an entire city's worth of people. That means huge air vents, huge tunnels, huge elevators, huge pipes.

Even if they don't nuke the underground city, the Geofront isn't able to be threatening if they stay underground. Sooner or later they have to field their troops. Then you can nuke um.

How big a force do you need to locate before you send nukes?

Big enough force that you can't easily squash with your military.

How do you protect your nukes from anti missile fire?

The CS has extensive air capability, of which the Geofront does not. Nukes are also moving too fast for AA to work. If need be, you send more than one.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to nuke an army (clearly it isn't), but it's not the sure thing you seem to think it is.

If the army is big enough the CS can't take them easily in battle, they're far far far too big to get out of the way of nukes.

Having a bunch of guns in a hole is cool, but you can't shoot someone from underground miles away. You gotta come up. And then. FOOSH.

My previous thread with buried phase weaponry capable of killing every living being in Chi Town begs to differ.

The Geofront doesn't have it, so it's a moot point. If they had all the gods in the megaverse down in their hole it'd be alot easier too, but they don't, so why bring it up?

I only know what's been posted about Geofront, so you are almost certainly better informed than I am about its capabilities,

Not so much really. I don't like the books and being honest, am going off what people are posting here too. I have the books. I just don't like them. (( though I think there's some cool Walton art in one or both)) I'm reading through my Hunter the Reckoning books so i'm a bit lazy to look stuff up just now.

but a high tech society with magic has the potential to do things that your beloved CS has no ability to counter.

It's my understanding one of the huge main points of the china setting is that China magic works in china and only in china. I could be wrong, but that's how I understand it. So it's just "another" high tech society, that's coming 100 years late to North America and trying to build up a power base in secret then come a nocking. They're behind the curve. If nothing else they'd have to breed the people. That takes time.

How many of your precious nukes does it take to equal a single dimensional portal from the surface of the sun into CS territory?

See above.

I don't actually know the answer to that, but I'm confident that it makes a nuke look like a BB gun.

--flatline

And if it was possible, why didn't Tolkeen use it when they were getting trounced? lol Or the Federation of Magic. An entire society of pissy mages that would love to kill the CS, who's entire society is around magic, yet can't do it?

I'm not saying the Geofront couldn't make their cave. They can, but making something large like that 1) Takes time. 2) Takes ALOT of effort. 3) Produces an amazing amount of waste, and 4) is going to be enormously hard to hide from a technological power base.

NOT impossible. Just not easy to do so, and do so sneaky. If you're doing so on such a scale as to actually house a military in there capable of taking the field against the Coalitions "Millions" it makes it that much harder. These guys have had some time in knowing how to do it. Some practice at it too. That doesn't mean they can wave a hand and suddenly have a cave capable of holding houseing, feeding and securing MILLIONS of troops with out significant imput of work and output of waste.

CAN it be done? Perhaps. Doing so invisably and undetected and such? Alot harder.


The water alone would be a huge intake daily.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The only 2 books that use chi system are Ninja and Superspies and Mystic China.

The mystic system in RC 1&2 is a system based in ISP and PPE, not chi.

China 2 pg 141 "Losing the Power of Chi"

Yes, I've read that. And and since is uses ISP and PPE it is not a chi system. It is a 'mystic' system.
I am just calling the Rifts China's "mystic system" what it "is".

[Giant2005]

The Geofront doesn't need anything from the surface. They tap Geothermal energy from the Earth's core and create their own water, oxygen and food. Their technology creates a "self sufficient, fully functioning eco-system" within the Earth.
They also don't have any magic, not really at least. They are very open to magic and make use of it but only through their surface allies - no-one within the Geofront sanctuary are spellcasters. The premise doesn't make mention of it but if they were allowed to bring their spellcasting allies, they would be no different to the mages of Lazlo or any other nation. they are Ley Line Walkers, Warlocks and the like, not some strange Chi Mage that probably exists in Mystic China (I haven't read MC). If they had mages with them, the magic would work fine.

what is limited is their Chi-based Martial Arts powers. When I say "limited" I do not mean gone, I mean marginally reduced in power, although still a massive advantage against those without the same abilities.

As I mentioned earlier, assuming a fair fight (and the Geofront has access to all of its personnel/assets), the Geofront SHOULD come out on top due to its (apparently) better tech, superior numbers and better trained personnel.
The difference is that the Geofront has less than 50 pages of information about it, most of which is devoted to its history and a bunch of OCC descriptions. Its actually capabilities have been barely statted out and left to our imagination. Obviously if you aren't using that imagination, then the nation with the most information released about it will always have the advantage.
No answer is wrong in this case: when comparing less than 50 pages verses numerous books, only a fool would support the less than 50 page nation. But when considering the intention of the writers and using logic to fill in the blanks to a comparable level, then that less than 50 page nation would be the victor.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The only 2 books that use chi system are Ninja and Superspies and Mystic China.

The mystic system in RC 1&2 is a system based in ISP and PPE, not chi.

China 2 pg 141 "Losing the Power of Chi"

Yes, I've read that. And and since is uses ISP and PPE it is not a chi system. It is a 'mystic' system.
I am just calling the Rifts China's "mystic system" what it "is".

Obviously it is not the same ISP and PPE system that is used in the rest of the world seeing as all of their abilities get reduced outside of china.

That is because KS & EW made RC different from the rest of RIfts.

Have you noticed that in Rifts the Martial Art forms & powers have been dumbed down from N&S and MC?
------------

snip....

what is limited is their Chi-based Martial Arts powers. When I say "limited" I do not mean gone, I mean marginally reduced in power, although still a massive advantage against those without the same abilities.
...snip.

Their powers run on ISP and PPE so they are not chi based.
If they were chi based they would run off of Chi. The stuff every char has equal to their PE score.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Regardless, China 2 uses Chi (ISP).

Rifts China 1&2 uses ISP.
Mystic China (and N&S) uses Chi
Just calling ISP chi, does not make it Chi.
And using the words "Chi (ISP)" does not make ISP into chi.

It is the Stat ever char has, with it's score equal to the char's PE score.
The living have Positive Chi, and the moving dead have negative chi.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Seriously, dude? It's not chi. Chi has been very well defined in other books. It works in a totally different manner from the ISP-based mysticism employed by the martial artists of China. They use ISP and call it chi. A mage could use PPE but call it mana. It would still be PPE.

The Oni Ninja's of the Phase World setting use ISP to fuel their techniques, but call it ki. Still ISP.

I can spend the next ten years saying that all my appliances run on quintessence, but that won't stop me from getting a bill from the electrical company for using all that electricity.

[Nightmask]

Seriously, dude? It's not chi. Chi has been very well defined in other books. It works in a totally different manner from the ISP-based mysticism employed by the martial artists of China. They use ISP and call it chi. A mage could use PPE but call it mana. It would still be PPE.

The Oni Ninja's of the Phase World setting use ISP to fuel their techniques, but call it ki. Still ISP.

I can spend the next ten years saying that all my appliances run on quintessence, but that won't stop me from getting a bill from the electrical company for using all that electricity.

Obviously it is not purely ISP seeing as it is reduced outside of china.

While I haven't seen the setting from what I've seen others post here the continent of China is practically its own separate dimension not unrealistic to imagine it has physical properties that effectively double one's ISP if one is native to that area and once away from there it drops to the levels normal to the rest of the world/universe.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Seriously, dude? It's not chi. Chi has been very well defined in other books. It works in a totally different manner from the ISP-based mysticism employed by the martial artists of China. They use ISP and call it chi. A mage could use PPE but call it mana. It would still be PPE.

The Oni Ninja's of the Phase World setting use ISP to fuel their techniques, but call it ki. Still ISP.

I can spend the next ten years saying that all my appliances run on quintessence, but that won't stop me from getting a bill from the electrical company for using all that electricity.

Obviously it is not purely ISP seeing as it is reduced outside of china.

And there are numerous dimensions where magic and psionics are weak enough that they can only inflict SDC damage. Or cost twice as much to use. Or reserves of PPE or ISP recover at reduced speed. They're still magic and psionic powers.

China is a special case on Rifts Earth. It's not just China anymore, it's Hell(s) on Earth. Dimensional magic has made things wonkie.

[Dr Megaverse]

The portal is, as noted in the OP, STABLE meaning they can call upon the full resources of the Geofront back home in China. Including having them get rid of all of the building material that was removed (not much, scenario assumes they mostly utilized a natural cavern deep underground,same depth as their home city).

The Geofront city in the US IS fully built before conflict erupts.

[Dr Megaverse]

The Geofront doesn't need anything from the surface. They tap Geothermal energy from the Earth's core and create their own water, oxygen and food. Their technology creates a "self sufficient, fully functioning eco-system" within the Earth.
They also don't have any magic, not really at least. They are very open to magic and make use of it but only through their surface allies - no-one within the Geofront sanctuary are spellcasters. The premise doesn't make mention of it but if they were allowed to bring their spellcasting allies, they would be no different to the mages of Lazlo or any other nation. they are Ley Line Walkers, Warlocks and the like, not some strange Chi Mage that probably exists in Mystic China (I haven't read MC). If they had mages with them, the magic would work fine.

what is limited is their Chi-based Martial Arts powers. When I say "limited" I do not mean gone, I mean marginally reduced in power, although still a massive advantage against those without the same abilities.

As I mentioned earlier, assuming a fair fight (and the Geofront has access to all of its personnel/assets), the Geofront SHOULD come out on top due to its (apparently) better tech, superior numbers and better trained personnel.
The difference is that the Geofront has less than 50 pages of information about it, most of which is devoted to its history and a bunch of OCC descriptions. Its actually capabilities have been barely statted out and left to our imagination. Obviously if you aren't using that imagination, then the nation with the most information released about it will always have the advantage.
No answer is wrong in this case: when comparing less than 50 pages verses numerous books, only a fool would support the less than 50 page nation. But when considering the intention of the writers and using logic to fill in the blanks to a comparable level, then that less than 50 page nation would be the victor.

This is actually why I ask. I was thinking of the relative imbalance of supply in the world of Rifts armies and was curious how two equally well supplied armies with equal fighting experience (albeit different kinds of experience) would fare against each other. As the GF has superior numbers I thought I'd give the CS the home advantage, has been an interesting discussion so far.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

While the geofront will have the initial advantage, once it goes to large scale battles, the CS gains the upper hands, because they have experience in large scale battles and the equipment to do it.

[flatline]

While the geofront will have the initial advantage, once it goes to large scale battles, the CS gains the upper hands, because they have experience in large scale battles and the equipment to do it.

Could the Geofront avoid large scale engagements, thus preventing the CS from capitalizing on any advantage it may have?

--flatline

[Slight001]

While the geofront will have the initial advantage, once it goes to large scale battles, the CS gains the upper hands, because they have experience in large scale battles and the equipment to do it.

Could the Geofront avoid large scale engagements, thus preventing the CS from capitalizing on any advantage it may have?

--flatline

They could for a while, but eventually the CS is going to find their home base and they will begin locking it down. Then it turns into siege warfare and without an update the Geofront has no reliable way to counter indirect weaponry, without even resorting to nukes the CS will be able to pound their way down into the cave system and just keep pounding the area until all is dust. On top of that all evidence indicates that their ability to replace losses is far more limited then the CS's... see my previous post for numbers on known Geofront PA's and Armor. I didn't look at their weaponry but I wouldn't be surprized if that was also limited.

[flatline]

While the geofront will have the initial advantage, once it goes to large scale battles, the CS gains the upper hands, because they have experience in large scale battles and the equipment to do it.

Could the Geofront avoid large scale engagements, thus preventing the CS from capitalizing on any advantage it may have?

--flatline

They could for a while, but eventually the CS is going to find their home base and they will begin locking it down. Then it turns into siege warfare and without an update the Geofront has no reliable way to counter indirect weaponry, without even resorting to nukes the CS will be able to pound their way down into the cave system and just keep pounding the area until all is dust. On top of that all evidence indicates that their ability to replace losses is far more limited then the CS's... see my previous post for numbers on known Geofront PA's and Armor. I didn't look at their weaponry but I wouldn't be surprized if that was also limited.

A city built under bedrock is untouchable by artillery. The amount of ordinance required to "dig" a hole with explosive shells is astronomical since once you get to a certain depth, all the debris you just blew out falls right back into the hole and then you can't make any progress at all.

--flatline

[Slight001]

While the geofront will have the initial advantage, once it goes to large scale battles, the CS gains the upper hands, because they have experience in large scale battles and the equipment to do it.

Could the Geofront avoid large scale engagements, thus preventing the CS from capitalizing on any advantage it may have?

--flatline

They could for a while, but eventually the CS is going to find their home base and they will begin locking it down. Then it turns into siege warfare and without an update the Geofront has no reliable way to counter indirect weaponry, without even resorting to nukes the CS will be able to pound their way down into the cave system and just keep pounding the area until all is dust. On top of that all evidence indicates that their ability to replace losses is far more limited then the CS's... see my previous post for numbers on known Geofront PA's and Armor. I didn't look at their weaponry but I wouldn't be surprized if that was also limited.

A city built under bedrock is untouchable by artillery. The amount of ordinance required to "dig" a hole with explosive shells is astronomical since once you get to a certain depth, all the debris you just blew out falls right back into the hole and then you can't make any progress at all.

--flatline

Ah, but you are thinking of conventional artillery, this is rifts it's got mega-damage artillery. Personally I'd go for a combination of HEAT rounds to punch in and then Plasma to vaporize and further weaken the material. More Importantly this process is going to destabilize the structure of the cavern system increasing the likely hood of a cave in which brings in the terror of being trapped underground while the enemy pounds away at you from above.

A CS commander could also be sending in Skelebots to harass the Geofront forces, while also performing scans and gathering data allowing them to refine their attack patterns and cause destabilization of the cave system.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Seriously, dude? It's not chi. Chi has been very well defined in other books. It works in a totally different manner from the ISP-based mysticism employed by the martial artists of China. They use ISP and call it chi. A mage could use PPE but call it mana. It would still be PPE.

The Oni Ninja's of the Phase World setting use ISP to fuel their techniques, but call it ki. Still ISP.

I can spend the next ten years saying that all my appliances run on quintessence, but that won't stop me from getting a bill from the electrical company for using all that electricity.

Obviously it is not purely ISP seeing as it is reduced outside of china.

And there are numerous dimensions where magic and psionics are weak enough that they can only inflict SDC damage. Or cost twice as much to use. Or reserves of PPE or ISP recover at reduced speed. They're still magic and psionic powers.

China is a special case on Rifts Earth. It's not just China anymore, it's Hell(s) on Earth. Dimensional magic has made things wonkie.

So every time the book writes Chi(ISP) it does so for absolutely no reason?

The reason is to illustrate that from the Chinese point of view, it is chi. Anyone else would call it ISP, but not those wacky Chinese.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

While the geofront will have the initial advantage, once it goes to large scale battles, the CS gains the upper hands, because they have experience in large scale battles and the equipment to do it.

Could the Geofront avoid large scale engagements, thus preventing the CS from capitalizing on any advantage it may have?

--flatline

Depends on what level the coalition mining tech is at, which nothing is written about.

[camk4evr]

I'd have to say that there's not enough information on the Geofront to call this as we only have a small collection of their weapons, equipment, forces to compare to the CS where we probably know about 70-90%. So while we know that they've got the tech, manpower, and magic/chi/whatever we don't know the extent of what's in thei arsenal to accurately determine the outcome.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Chi (ISP)
As the above is written, it says "Chi..no I mean ISP."
--------------
This is besides the point that in the classes' stats it refers to ISP not chi. And in the Martial Art Form stats it refers to ISP and PPE, not chi.

So it is a no-brainer to not use the style text, and just use what is used. *yawn*

[Pepsi Jedi]

The portal is, as noted in the OP, STABLE meaning they can call upon the full resources of the Geofront back home in China. Including having them get rid of all of the building material that was removed (not much, scenario assumes they mostly utilized a natural cavern deep underground,same depth as their home city).

The Geofront city in the US IS fully built before conflict erupts.

Conflict would erupt before the Geofront wanted it to. the CS aren't brain dead idiots. They'd detect the Geofront digging out huge caverns in the earth and assess the threat years before the Geofront was even done digging the hole.

If you're just going to hand wave them a city the size to hold millions underground and everything else, why ask the question? You're not asking "who'd win." You're saying the "Geofront will, who agrees with me?"

Look at the situation presented and how many 'freebies' you're giving one side.

[flatline]

Look at the situation presented and how many 'freebies' you're giving one side.

Seems only fair considering the number of "freebies" granted the CS in canon.

--flatline

[Dr Megaverse]

Conflict would erupt before the Geofront wanted it to. the CS aren't brain dead idiots. They'd detect the Geofront digging out huge caverns in the earth and assess the threat years before the Geofront was even done digging the hole.

If you're just going to hand wave them a city the size to hold millions underground and everything else, why ask the question? You're not asking "who'd win." You're saying the "Geofront will, who agrees with me?"

Look at the situation presented and how many 'freebies' you're giving one side.

Feel free to apply whatever opinions you may have to my motives, that is your concern.

The circumstance is presented as is, for the sake of conversation about this particular subject please try to stay within the confines of the example.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

You're saying the "Geofront will, who agrees with me?"

This sums up every " insert other human nation vs coalition states" thread out there.

[Dr Megaverse]

You're saying the "Geofront will, who agrees with me?"

This sums up every " insert other human nation vs coalition states" thread out there.

Not only is that a blatant generalization I feel, it also does nothing to further meaningful discussion. You're entitled to your opinion untill it dengirates someone else, as I feel you're doing.

You like the CS and want them to win? Great! Tell me how they're doing it using cannon sources, don't just stand around and shout your opinion with nothing to show it's worth paying attention to please!

I understand any "insert nation" vs the Cs thread has potential to devolve into an idiotic argument fest, so how anout we just try to contribute in a fashion which supports an interesting conversation, not a naysaying fest.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

You're saying the "Geofront will, who agrees with me?"

This sums up every " insert other human nation vs coalition states" thread out there.

Not only is that a blatant generalization I feel, it also does nothing to further meaningful discussion. You're entitled to your opinion untill it dengirates someone else, as I feel you're doing.

You like the CS and want them to win? Great! Tell me how they're doing it using cannon sources, don't just stand around and shout your opinion with nothing to show it's worth paying attention to please

Let's see
Instead of using canon, let's give geofront the same advantages they have in china, can they beat the coalition now?
Let's give them a air force , can they win now?
Instead of what will happen, the coalition crushing them as so as they pop their head out of the caves, the power armor is nice, but there only three of them, and they will get tore up by the coalition war machine, but hey why limit this non-canon situation to just canon material, if geofront is so powerful, then all the coalition should be allow in,Official and rifter material, don't you agree?

[flatline]

I think the original poster is interested in comparing the Geofront and CS based on their capabilities rather than on any situational advantage one may have due to already being entrenched in the continent. As such, when he set out the rules of the scenario, he specified that the Geofront, as the newcomer to North America, had somehow become entrenched before hostilities started.

For the purposes of this exercise, it is not for us to question how they managed to become entrenched, but to ponder what might happen next.

This is what is called a "thought experiment" and is not necessarily representative of what would really happen should the Geofront attempt to gain a foothold in NA.

If you want to participate in the thought experiment, then you must accept the starting scenario and any constraints assigned. If you don't want to participate in the thought experiment for whatever reason, then please, just leave the thread alone rather than moaning here about how you don't like it. Or, if you feel so motivated, start another thread for your own thought experiment where you lay out the scenario that you are interested in exploring.

--flatline

[Nether]

My money is on the Geo-front.

Geofront bases would be fully self sustaining which as far as i know the CS doesnt have this, they still rely on external means aka farms ext.

The Geofront has been prepairing, training and stockpiling for over 300 years for a battle they feel is inevitable to come, so their large army tactics wouldnt be unrefined.
The Geofronts understanding of guerilla warfare would be vastly superior to what the CS knows. They also know how to completely fake out the enemy into thinking it was a different faction that attacked them. Their spy rings have 300 years of advancement as well of heavy use.

The Geofront has no problems negotiating or using outside elements, ie d-bee's, magic, psionics, mutants ext and I would think would have a much easier time making / using allies. Not to mention overall they are a benevolent military who actually strives to make allies at every turn, unlike the CS who are more their opposite.

The Geofront population, ALL are literate, skilled and highly educated. They are also known as UNPRECEDENDED BEARERS of KNOWLEDGE. That would suggest that a basic grunt in the Geofront knows and can do alot more than a average CS grunt. CS grunts arent dumb, .. well some prolly are but my point is Geofront entire population has the educational advantage.
Then add every single citz of the Geofront is also military trained, and has md skin armor not to mention possibly reg body armor. So a civillian defense force is on par with the standard CS military troops for gear/combat prowess but yet better educated.
Their culture naturally ingrains unity, working as a team, more so than what you would have in the west. Everyone understands they live in a police state as well as they are very conscious of infiltrators, or making it much harder for one to penetrate as many of the demons can shapechange ext.

I am thinking like any sane nation, neither side wants to nuke the other so nukes are off the table.

They also use magic which is a powerful force multiplyer.

The average geo trooper has mystic martial arts and bonuses that the CS grunt does not. They also have mdc uniform as well as md body armor. All equivalent occ's for the geofront have bonuses and mystic martial arts where the CS equivalents do not. Even Geo scientists get a IQ bonus.

The Geofront just seems like it was designed as a near perfect pro human militant nation and i just dont see the CS capable of matching them.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think the original poster is interested in comparing the Geofront and CS based on their capabilities rather than on any situational advantage one may have due to already being entrenched in the continent. As such, when he set out the rules of the scenario, he specified that the Geofront, as the newcomer to North America, had somehow become entrenched before hostilities started.

That doesn't really negate situational advantages.

[flatline]

I think the original poster is interested in comparing the Geofront and CS based on their capabilities rather than on any situational advantage one may have due to already being entrenched in the continent. As such, when he set out the rules of the scenario, he specified that the Geofront, as the newcomer to North America, had somehow become entrenched before hostilities started.

That doesn't really negate situational advantages.

Presumably it negates the situational advantages that the designer of the though experiment was interested in negating. And even if it doesn't, perhaps this thought experiment will help him refine his next thought experiment.

Thought experiments, like all experimental science, is an iterative process.

--flatline

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Let's CS airpower pound on them and follows them back to their hole, and the fun starts, CS ground force look for every entrance thru a lot of tactics, they find it and meet geofront in the cave and then the troops pour in, after awhile CS gains a foothold more troops push thru, geofront retreats, leaving some nice tech for the coalition, geofront closes the portal, CS take all the tech they can and whatever prisoners for intergations and goes home and seals the cave with a number of skeletons to stand watch.

Or the portal remains open and coalition a series of different skelebots armed with bio-weapons, or a nuke,....or they begin peace talks. Anything could happen, but geofront defeating the CS, because they wouldn't have the manpower or equipment to do it, sorry I know you all wanted the good communists to win, but its not going to happen, besides they have a homeland to retake from demons so fighting another human nation may not be high on their to do list.

[Giant2005]

they find it and meet geofront in the cave and then the troops pour in, after awhile CS gains a foothold more troops push thru, geofront retreats, leaving some nice tech for the coalition, geofront closes the portal, CS take all the tech they can and whatever prisoners for intergations and goes home and seals the cave with a number of skeletons to stand watch.

Um... No.
I don't mean to be rude but the force with superior numbers, firepower and training will never lose when holding a defensible position.
That would be like the Pecos Bandits sacking Chi-Town.

Due to the books not going into detail with respect to the Geofront's long range weapons capabilities, the only advantage the CS can claim would be in an open battlefield. If they had the balls to enter the Geofront tunnels where that advantage would be useless, the only thing they could expect would be their own massacre.

[Nether]

Let's CS airpower pound on them and follows them back to their hole, and the fun starts, CS ground force look for every entrance thru a lot of tactics, they find it and meet geofront in the cave and then the troops pour in, after awhile CS gains a foothold more troops push thru, geofront retreats, leaving some nice tech for the coalition, geofront closes the portal, CS take all the tech they can and whatever prisoners for intergations and goes home and seals the cave with a number of skeletons to stand watch.

Or the portal remains open and coalition a series of different skelebots armed with bio-weapons, or a nuke,....or they begin peace talks. Anything could happen, but geofront defeating the CS, because they wouldn't have the manpower or equipment to do it, sorry I know you all wanted the good communists to win, but its not going to happen, besides they have a homeland to retake from demons so fighting another human nation may not be high on their to do list.

That seems very thin in describing anything of substance. We arent talking about the CS vs (name of small village here), it is a army that is of equal or greater size to them.

If anything it just sounds like a "I like CS, therefore they beat the megaverse!" response.

The Geofront is going to have an airforce as well and if the OCCs are any indication of pattern they will also be superior to the CS airforce OCCs.

Also where does it suggest the CS would integrate or even use any non CS developed tech?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Let's CS airpower pound on them and follows them back to their hole, and the fun starts, CS ground force look for every entrance thru a lot of tactics, they find it and meet geofront in the cave and then the troops pour in, after awhile CS gains a foothold more troops push thru, geofront retreats, leaving some nice tech for the coalition, geofront closes the portal, CS take all the tech they can and whatever prisoners for intergations and goes home and seals the cave with a number of skeletons to stand watch.

Or the portal remains open and coalition a series of different skelebots armed with bio-weapons, or a nuke,....or they begin peace talks. Anything could happen, but geofront defeating the CS, because they wouldn't have the manpower or equipment to do it, sorry I know you all wanted the good communists to win, but its not going to happen, besides they have a homeland to retake from demons so fighting another human nation may not be high on their to do list.

That seems very thin in describing anything of substance. We arent talking about the CS vs (name of small village here), it is a army that is of equal or greater size to them.

If anything it just sounds like a "I like CS, therefore they beat the megaverse!" response.

The Geofront is going to have an airforce as well and if the OCCs are any indication of pattern they will also be superior to the CS airforce OCCs.

Also where does it suggest the CS would integrate or even use any non CS developed tech?

Really I'm sure you can back you claim with a page for the geofront air force right? Somehow geofront giving up their homeland goes against the official canon.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

they find it and meet geofront in the cave and then the troops pour in, after awhile CS gains a foothold more troops push thru, geofront retreats, leaving some nice tech for the coalition, geofront closes the portal, CS take all the tech they can and whatever prisoners for intergations and goes home and seals the cave with a number of skeletons to stand watch.

Um... No.
I don't mean to be rude but the force with superior numbers, firepower and training will never lose when holding a defensible position.
That would be like the Pecos Bandits sacking Chi-Town.

Due to the books not going into detail with respect to the Geofront's long range weapons capabilities, the only advantage the CS can claim would be in an open battlefield. If they had the balls to enter the Geofront tunnels where that advantage would be useless, the only thing they could expect would be their own massacre.

really when was the last time geofront faced a tech nation in cave warfare, got a page number.
Or CS could just send in wave after wave and a skelebots hiding a nuke to clear the path and defenders.

[Nether]

Let's CS airpower pound on them and follows them back to their hole, and the fun starts, CS ground force look for every entrance thru a lot of tactics, they find it and meet geofront in the cave and then the troops pour in, after awhile CS gains a foothold more troops push thru, geofront retreats, leaving some nice tech for the coalition, geofront closes the portal, CS take all the tech they can and whatever prisoners for intergations and goes home and seals the cave with a number of skeletons to stand watch.

Or the portal remains open and coalition a series of different skelebots armed with bio-weapons, or a nuke,....or they begin peace talks. Anything could happen, but geofront defeating the CS, because they wouldn't have the manpower or equipment to do it, sorry I know you all wanted the good communists to win, but its not going to happen, besides they have a homeland to retake from demons so fighting another human nation may not be high on their to do list.

That seems very thin in describing anything of substance. We arent talking about the CS vs (name of small village here), it is a army that is of equal or greater size to them.

If anything it just sounds like a "I like CS, therefore they beat the megaverse!" response.

The Geofront is going to have an airforce as well and if the OCCs are any indication of pattern they will also be superior to the CS airforce OCCs.

Also where does it suggest the CS would integrate or even use any non CS developed tech?

Really I'm sure you can back you claim with a page for the geofront air force right? Somehow geofront giving up their homeland goes against the official canon.

There is none as you know that, but all the canon harpies on these boards forget that they can still make logical conclusions on their own.

Such as, Geofront if a Golden Age tech holder, so you could surmise they would have nukes for eg. They were also the cream of the China military when it was founded, so you could surmise they would have airforce as well. The books dont talk about those elements so but neither do they talk about cities having plumbing, waterworks ext.

So if you want to debate only by canon, then how does any military survive let alone most in the game of Rifts? I mean, does canon tell us that they have sufficient power to light their city, food to feed all its people, does every CS citz have a bed to sleep in or heat for winter so they dont freeze to death? They must all stink horribly because where in the canon does it say they have showers or baths?

If you want to play only "where is the canon" then you need to explain far more than I which you cant back up. So fair to say a little bit of common sense applied here would lead you to this logic. We know the CS and many other major cities have these things, but it isnt mentioned in Canon. If you feel the Geofront wouldnt have an airforce because of description x then by all means mention it, but if canon is all you have to back up then it is pointless to have a friendly discussion about this with you.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Let's CS airpower pound on them and follows them back to their hole, and the fun starts, CS ground force look for every entrance thru a lot of tactics, they find it and meet geofront in the cave and then the troops pour in, after awhile CS gains a foothold more troops push thru, geofront retreats, leaving some nice tech for the coalition, geofront closes the portal, CS take all the tech they can and whatever prisoners for intergations and goes home and seals the cave with a number of skeletons to stand watch.

Or the portal remains open and coalition a series of different skelebots armed with bio-weapons, or a nuke,....or they begin peace talks. Anything could happen, but geofront defeating the CS, because they wouldn't have the manpower or equipment to do it, sorry I know you all wanted the good communists to win, but its not going to happen, besides they have a homeland to retake from demons so fighting another human nation may not be high on their to do list.

That seems very thin in describing anything of substance. We arent talking about the CS vs (name of small village here), it is a army that is of equal or greater size to them.

If anything it just sounds like a "I like CS, therefore they beat the megaverse!" response.

The Geofront is going to have an airforce as well and if the OCCs are any indication of pattern they will also be superior to the CS airforce OCCs.

Also where does it suggest the CS would integrate or even use any non CS developed tech?

Really I'm sure you can back you claim with a page for the geofront air force right? Somehow geofront giving up their homeland goes against the official canon.

There is none as you know that, but all the canon harpies on these boards forget that they can still make logical conclusions on their own.

Such as, Geofront if a Golden Age tech holder, so you could surmise they would have nukes for eg. They were also the cream of the China military when it was founded, so you could surmise they would have airforce as well. The books dont talk about those elements so but neither do they talk about cities having plumbing, waterworks ext.

So if you want to debate only by canon, then how does any military survive let alone most in the game of Rifts? I mean, does canon tell us that they have sufficient power to light their city, food to feed all its people, does every CS citz have a bed to sleep in or heat for winter so they dont freeze to death? They must all stink horribly because where in the canon does it say they have showers or baths?

If you want to play only "where is the canon" then you need to explain far more than I which you cant back up. So fair to say a little bit of common sense applied here would lead you to this logic. We know the CS and many other major cities have these things, but it isnt mentioned in Canon. If you feel the Geofront wouldnt have an airforce because of description x then by all means mention it, but if canon is all you have to back up then it is pointless to have a friendly discussion about this with you.

I see this is giving stuff to geofront so they can win against CS , geo-front get non-canon stuff and CS gets only canon stuff, sound about right.