CS nuclear capabilities

[Killer Cyborg]

I kind of think that I'm always pretty free with my opinion.
If you're not sure what my opinion is, you can always ask; I tend to answer questions.

[Killer Cyborg]

As I said, I don't have the book.

Well if you do not have the book then you do not know what your talking about.

Actually, I do. Because, as mentioned any number of times, what I'm talking about is the scenario presented in this thread.
And I've read this thread.

Allow me to help you. The nukes did in fact not hit anyone. And yet the Coalition still holds fault for launching them in the first place.

If you want to help, provide a direct quote from the book to support your claims.
For a change.

[Slight001]

The CS Navy says how nukes would be a extreme last resort option, this is canon, yet what was the first thing they did in the tolkeen war?

All the text says the CS launched were "low yield nuclear missiles" it doesn't say they were tomahawks... for all we know, and more then likely, they were the more common 'tactical' nukes that are available from virtually every major arms manufacturer...

Anyway, the CS nuke capability in canon limits the total number of created devices to 50 per year as 50 which makes no sense to me.

Actually it says...

Due to the abundance of weapons-grade nuclear material, a material produced in the power plants of the CS war machines, the Coalition is able to produce 50 devices of up to one megaton yield per year!

I read that to mean that the CS has the capacity to produce up to 50 megatons of these so called super nukes. The stats of the two Firefly (CSN pg 48) indicates it has only a 100 kiloton warhead and the Tomahawk (also CSN pg 48) indicates it has only a 200 kiloton warhead. There are no stats in the book that I have for any nukes with a yield higher then 200 kilotons.

[Nether]

The CS Navy says how nukes would be a extreme last resort option, this is canon, yet what was the first thing they did in the tolkeen war?

All the text says the CS launched were "low yield nuclear missiles" it doesn't say they were tomahawks... for all we know, and more then likely, they were the more common 'tactical' nukes that are available from virtually every major arms manufacturer...

Anyway, the CS nuke capability in canon limits the total number of created devices to 50 per year as 50 which makes no sense to me.

Actually it says...

Due to the abundance of weapons-grade nuclear material, a material produced in the power plants of the CS war machines, the Coalition is able to produce 50 devices of up to one megaton yield per year!

I read that to mean that the CS has the capacity to produce up to 50 megatons of these so called super nukes. The stats of the two Firefly (CSN pg 48) indicates it has only a 100 kiloton warhead and the Tomahawk (also CSN pg 48) indicates it has only a 200 kiloton warhead. There are no stats in the book that I have for any nukes with a yield higher then 200 kilotons.

I actually agree with you to what it should be, but by the quoted statement i think you are wrong. 50 devices "of up to" meaning that not all 50 devices are 1 megaton, so each one of those tomohawks and fireflies count as 1 device each. It has been estimated that they would have about 450 devices by 109, not including the original stockpile. They also fired approx 100-300 of these devices at Tolkeen.

I seriously hope the CS did not waste half thier nuclear materiel on Tolkeen.

[Slight001]

If you want to help, provide a direct quote from the book to support your claims. For a change.

Its cute, how you attempt to imply Via (for a change) comment that I never provide a quote, this whole time, your the
only 1 who has yet to provide a quote, about anything , to support any view you have expressed regaurding the context
of our conversation.

Good try at flame baiting me KC. good try.

The only one flame baiting here is you RedRose. KC has already explained his position and asked for something as simple as a quote from you to backup your claim. You've refused again and again and somehow seem to think KC is the unreasonable one... how odd.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Wasn't the quote provided just above the post? Where it says Tolkeen isn't SURE where the nukes go, but they THINK it's probably a limbo like place? Meaning they are speculating but aren't sure?

I know, I've kept out of this but.. someone quoted it like.. right there! *Points up*

[Blue_Lion]

How about change the paramaters of the debate. If country 1 fires a nuke at country 2, country 2s defence system shoot down the missle. The reckage of the missle kills your dog who do you blame?

Most military and goverments blame the agressor. The defender was only doing what they could to defend themself and harming you was not ment to happen.

(I thaght the rift defence system was based of the swalling rift witch if i rember right rifted it to oblivion.)

[Pepsi Jedi]

How about change the paramaters of the debate. If country 1 fires a nuke at country 2, country 2s defence system shoot down the missle. The reckage of the missle kills your dog who do you blame?

Most military and goverments blame the agressor. The defender was only doing what they could to defend themself and harming you was not ment to happen.

(I thaght the rift defence system was based of the swalling rift witch if i rember right rifted it to oblivion.)

There's a bit of a difference. It'd be more like if Country 1 fires a nuke at Country 2, who it's been telling for a decade it's going to do, and Country 2 has a technology that makes the nuke suddenly spin in the air and fire off at a random country, other than it self, not really KNOWING where it'd go but THINKING it'd land in the ocean.

[Blue_Lion]

How about change the paramaters of the debate. If country 1 fires a nuke at country 2, country 2s defence system shoot down the missle. The reckage of the missle kills your dog who do you blame?

Most military and goverments blame the agressor. The defender was only doing what they could to defend themself and harming you was not ment to happen.

(I thaght the rift defence system was based of the swalling rift witch if i rember right rifted it to oblivion.)

There's a bit of a difference. It'd be more like if Country 1 fires a nuke at Country 2, who it's been telling for a decade it's going to do, and Country 2 has a technology that makes the nuke suddenly spin in the air and fire off at a random country, other than it self, not really KNOWING where it'd go but THINKING it'd land in the ocean.

1st off they did not cause it to spin out of control and blow up on another country the opened a rift that there shifters said does not lead to any populoated spot. As there is allot of megaverse that is unpopulted that is likly they are right.

2nd CS nukes are smart bombs as are there lrm a smart bomb nuke does not blow up if it misses its programed target. So it whould be more like the reckage from my example that hits.

3rd develping a counter measher for a threat you know is comming is not malice. It is no difrent then a bulet bouncing of a tank and hitting a kid. The fault is not the people deploying the defensive sytem but the agressor. Or a bullet bouncing of armor plated windows of the apartment from the earler example.

There was no malice or jerk intent on building the best defence you can just because it send a incoming attack away. Now if they blocked it by opening a portral to a set place such as the center of phase world then you might have point. Simply put with all information they had the system showed no threat to any intelgenct life form, but you want to blame them because you want it to hit some pinky fluffy bunnies. Also if you look at the Laws of war, the use of a defence system like tolkeens whould be legal but the CS use of nukes on civilan cities is not.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you want to help, provide a direct quote from the book to support your claims. For a change.

Its cute, how you attempt to imply Via (for a change) comment that I never provide a quote, this whole time,

You did quote part of one sentence, iirc.
But that quote didn't support your claim that the nukes didn't hit anybody.
Nor did it support any previous argument or claim that was made.

your the
only 1 who has yet to provide a quote, about anything , to support any view you have expressed regaurding the context
of our conversation.

I just did provide a quote: I quoted the original post in this thread where the conversation started.

Good try at flame baiting me KC. good try.

FYI, accusing people of flame-baiting can be considered to be flame-baiting by the mods. Also, one of the rules here is "address the post, not the poster," so repeatedly directing insults my way is bound to attract the mods' attention at some point.

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually it says...

Due to the abundance of weapons-grade nuclear material, a material produced in the power plants of the CS war machines, the Coalition is able to produce 50 devices of up to one megaton yield per year!

I read that to mean that the CS has the capacity to produce up to 50 megatons of these so called super nukes. The stats of the two Firefly (CSN pg 48) indicates it has only a 100 kiloton warhead and the Tomahawk (also CSN pg 48) indicates it has only a 200 kiloton warhead. There are no stats in the book that I have for any nukes with a yield higher then 200 kilotons.

I actually agree with you to what it should be, but by the quoted statement i think you are wrong. 50 devices "of up to" meaning that not all 50 devices are 1 megaton, so each one of those tomohawks and fireflies count as 1 device each. It has been estimated that they would have about 450 devices by 109, not including the original stockpile.

Since we're getting into the technical semantics of the sentence instead of the most likely intended meaning, I'll point out the following:
The quote above states that the Coalition is able to produce 50 devices per year.
It does not say that this is their maximum output.
It does not say "able to produce up to 50 devices," nor does it say "able to produce a maximum of 50 devices," nor does it say "able to produce a total of 50 devices," nor anything else that specially sets the total that they are able to produce at 50 devices.

Similarly, I could truthfully say the following:
"Due to the abundance of food in my pantry and local stores, I am able to eat three meals per day."
But the truthfulness of that claim would not conflict with me truthfully claiming:
"Due to the abundance of food in my pantry and local stores, I am able to eat five meals per day."
There is no limitation placed in the first quote- it's only an indication that I have sufficient supplies to eat an average number of meals per day.

So IF we want to try to focus on the book's statement as written, in a strictly technical sense, it does NOT preclude the CS creating more than 50 nuclear devices per year.

Of course, I'd prefer that we look at the most likely intended meaning instead of the strictest technical meaning, but since we're apparently not doing things that way...

[Nether]

Actually it says...

Due to the abundance of weapons-grade nuclear material, a material produced in the power plants of the CS war machines, the Coalition is able to produce 50 devices of up to one megaton yield per year!

I read that to mean that the CS has the capacity to produce up to 50 megatons of these so called super nukes. The stats of the two Firefly (CSN pg 48) indicates it has only a 100 kiloton warhead and the Tomahawk (also CSN pg 48) indicates it has only a 200 kiloton warhead. There are no stats in the book that I have for any nukes with a yield higher then 200 kilotons.

I actually agree with you to what it should be, but by the quoted statement i think you are wrong. 50 devices "of up to" meaning that not all 50 devices are 1 megaton, so each one of those tomohawks and fireflies count as 1 device each. It has been estimated that they would have about 450 devices by 109, not including the original stockpile.

Since we're getting into the technical semantics of the sentence instead of the most likely intended meaning, I'll point out the following:
The quote above states that the Coalition is able to produce 50 devices per year.
It does not say that this is their maximum output.
It does not say "able to produce up to 50 devices," nor does it say "able to produce a maximum of 50 devices," nor does it say "able to produce a total of 50 devices," nor anything else that specially sets the total that they are able to produce at 50 devices.

Similarly, I could truthfully say the following:
"Due to the abundance of food in my pantry and local stores, I am able to eat three meals per day."
But the truthfulness of that claim would not conflict with me truthfully claiming:
"Due to the abundance of food in my pantry and local stores, I am able to eat five meals per day."
There is no limitation placed in the first quote- it's only an indication that I have sufficient supplies to eat an average number of meals per day.

So IF we want to try to focus on the book's statement as written, in a strictly technical sense, it does NOT preclude the CS creating more than 50 nuclear devices per year.

Of course, I'd prefer that we look at the most likely intended meaning instead of the strictest technical meaning, but since we're apparently not doing things that way...

Part of your post is arguing with me when I actually agree with you and Slim. I am not a big fan of the Canon mentality on the boards, as in many posters say it only matters if it is in canon, if no page number and exact text then it is just ýour house rule.
I thought you were one of the canon only people till yester when i saw a post by you that mentioned how you believe in the spirit of it and not the exct. I believe in good sense and the books are vague, contradictory ext, so it requires some logical navigation and tweaking like the above quote we are talking about.

Also, i dont think it matters if the CS max is possibly more ext because it says they can make 50 devices a year. Could they make more if they cut other areas? Sure but it is not the norm.

[Pepsi Jedi]

How about change the paramaters of the debate. If country 1 fires a nuke at country 2, country 2s defence system shoot down the missle. The reckage of the missle kills your dog who do you blame?

Most military and goverments blame the agressor. The defender was only doing what they could to defend themself and harming you was not ment to happen.

(I thaght the rift defence system was based of the swalling rift witch if i rember right rifted it to oblivion.)

There's a bit of a difference. It'd be more like if Country 1 fires a nuke at Country 2, who it's been telling for a decade it's going to do, and Country 2 has a technology that makes the nuke suddenly spin in the air and fire off at a random country, other than it self, not really KNOWING where it'd go but THINKING it'd land in the ocean.

1st off they did not cause it to spin out of control and blow up on another country

Yeah... I know..... but we don't HAVE rifts or active magic on OUR earth.. that's why I said it'd be -like- that.....

the opened a rift that there shifters said does not lead to any populoated spot. As there is allot of megaverse that is unpopulted that is likly they are right.

No... it says they're not SURE where it is, but they think it's a limbo like place. "I'm not sure where it is but I don't think there's people there"...... Like.... saying "We THINK it'll go into the middle of the ocean.. but we're not SURE.

2nd CS nukes are smart bombs as are there lrm a smart bomb nuke does not blow up if it misses its programed target. So it whould be more like the reckage from my example that hits.

Show me the page where it says that? Make sure you factor in the act of being magically teleported to a random dimension?

3rd develping a counter measher for a threat you know is comming is not malice

I didn't say it was malice. But if your 'defense' is. AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE SWAT!!! and the missle hits a random country/people, due to your defense, it's partially your fault. You're the one that swatted it that way with your 'defense'. If you do so, knowingly, that the missile could end up anywhere, then that's irresponsible. "I don't care who gets nuked but it's not going to be me" is find and dandy for 'you', but who ever does take the hit is going to be pissed.

It is no difrent then a bulet bouncing of a tank and hitting a kid. The fault is not the people deploying the defensive sytem but the agressor. Or a bullet bouncing of armor plated windows of the apartment from the earler example.

It is different, because in this case Tolkeen didn't make sure they knew where they were throwing the missiles.

There was no malice or jerk intent on building the best defence you can just because it send a incoming attack away.

Again, difference between "Malice" and "Irresponsible use of magic". Did they take the rift and rrift the missles into Chi Town? No. They didn't. They just threw up a rift with the hopes that it wasn't going to nuke anyone... but 100% ok if it DID.... as long as it wasn't THEM. It's like a cop, in a battle with a criminal.. and the criminal throws a grenade. The cop sees it coming and screams, catching it and throwing it in a random direction. The cop isn't TRYING to blow up bistanders.. the cop is just trying not to get blown up himself, but he DID catch and throw it.. so if it lands in a playground and kills 50 kids, it's that cops fault for not looking where he was throwing, and throwing it in a safe direction.... or if there's not a safe direction, falling on the grenade.

Now if they blocked it by opening a portral to a set place such as the center of phase world then you might have point. Simply put with all information they had the system showed no threat to any intelgenct life form,

But it's not. It said they don't know where the rifts lead. But they THINK it's a limbo like place. They threw with out lookin'. Heck I brought this up weeks ago in another thread. That tolkeen better hope who was on the other side didn't get nuked and come calling.

but you want to blame them because you want it to hit some pinky fluffy bunnies. Also if you look at the Laws of war, the use of a defence system like tolkeens whould be legal but the CS use of nukes on civilan cities is not.

lol No. Not the way it went down. If you use a technology that causes an innocent country to get nuked you're going to get blamed. Again, its like the cop and the grenade. In short if you don't know where you're throwing it, you shouldn't throw it. Even if it means you get blown up.

Can I UNDERSTAND why the cop might scream and throw it? Sure. I can 'UNDERSTAND" why Tolkeen did what they did too. I wouldn't want to get nuked... but it's still on them if they hit innocents, trying to protect themselves. THEIR protection, is no more rightful than the Innocents. It can easily be argued less so, because Tolkeen willingly entered the war to hurt the CS. Yes they were defending from a first shot in a war that they wanted and spent ... 16? 17 Years? Gearing up for.

[Colt47]

Just wanted to jump in here. If Nukes were used against Tolkeen, isn't that area fairly radioactive now?

The CS uses clean nukes.

The CS uses exploding water balloons and calls them clean nukes.

[Pepsi Jedi]

As for the defense, I cut out a few parts (it's several paragraphs long). However, from the description and evidence
availabe, what it seems here is that Tolkeen used a combination of Swalling Rift and Rift Triangular Defense System
(RTDS). The "Swalling Rift" spell is what sent the missiles away, and the RTDS is the shield that protected those that
got through. These spells can be found on page 23 of the book quoted above. They can be found in Rifts Book of Magic
as well (Swallowing Rift, level 12 on page 146, and Rift Triangular Defense System, level 14 on page 151).

From the Swalling Rift spell we have: "Where these portals lead is unknown, but is presumed to be a limbo-like or
inhospitable environment."

Exactly this.

Anyone who wishes to switch blame tolkeen on an "if" simply does not read nor care what the books say about how they
went about protecting themselves.

They only wish / care about trying to make tolkeen appear as evil as they can. Its their agenda on these forums.

Because by the books, The Coalition are seen as the evil mini nazies.

"Where these portals lead is unknown, but is presumed to be a limbo-like or inhospitable environment."


So... the portals are PRESUMED tro be a limbo like or inhospitable environment.... but just as easily could be A Courscant type city planet and killed billions. Good job Tolkeen. Didn't look where you tossed Nuclear missiles. Only cared that they not hit you.

At least the CS had a military target.

[Nightmask]

No one is innocent in a war

The innocent victims are.

[Nightmask]

As for the defense, I cut out a few parts (it's several paragraphs long). However, from the description and evidence
availabe, what it seems here is that Tolkeen used a combination of Swalling Rift and Rift Triangular Defense System
(RTDS). The "Swalling Rift" spell is what sent the missiles away, and the RTDS is the shield that protected those that
got through. These spells can be found on page 23 of the book quoted above. They can be found in Rifts Book of Magic
as well (Swallowing Rift, level 12 on page 146, and Rift Triangular Defense System, level 14 on page 151).

From the Swalling Rift spell we have: "Where these portals lead is unknown, but is presumed to be a limbo-like or
inhospitable environment."

Exactly this.

Anyone who wishes to switch blame tolkeen on an "if" simply does not read nor care what the books say about how they
went about protecting themselves.

They only wish / care about trying to make tolkeen appear as evil as they can. Its their agenda on these forums.

Because by the books, The Coalition are seen as the evil mini nazies.

The far more successful Nazis, since they've been around for decades without being stopped.

[flatline]

No one is innocent in a war

The innocent victims are.

As soon as the defender kills someone, they commited a murder. And Tolkeen by that extention did A LOT of murder.

By definition, murder is the unlawful killing of someone.

Killing in defense is never unlawful.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

--flatline

[ffranceschi]

At least the CS had a military target.

A nuking a civilian population is not a military target. If they had a true military target, they would not have had to
target a city, but instead a military base. With out civilians present.

Out of the two war'ing parties, only Tolkeen had a military target. The CS had a mixed civilian population with military
but matter of factly it was not a military instilation they attacked or nuked, it was a City.

Actually, in our world, the only two times that nukes were released in anger, they were used against cities (civilians), not military targets. And the country which did that, said it was to save human lives (their soldiers human lives because the war had been already won). Now, I was talking about a democracy fighting the good fight for freedom and justice and blah, blah...the Coalition is committing genocide on a massive scale and THEY ARE NOT hiding the fact that they are going to exterminate the D-Bees and Magic Users. So, I find nothing wrong with the fact that they want to target cities, just like you know who...

[flatline]

No one is innocent in a war

The innocent victims are.

As soon as the defender kills someone, they commited a murder. And Tolkeen by that extention did A LOT of murder.

By definition, murder is the unlawful killing of someone.

Killing in defense is never unlawful.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

--flatline

Murder is the forceful killing of someone against their will, murder in self-defense is still murder. You could count it by a nations laws or natural laws if it helps you wrap your head around the concept. And before you start with legal BS I'll let you know that the term for murder in self-defense is "Justifiable Homicide" rather than "Not Murder".

Go google for "murder definition". Result: The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Unless you consider self-defense unlawful, killing in self-defense is not murder.

--flatline

[Blue_Lion]

As for the defense, I cut out a few parts (it's several paragraphs long). However, from the description and evidence
availabe, what it seems here is that Tolkeen used a combination of Swalling Rift and Rift Triangular Defense System
(RTDS). The "Swalling Rift" spell is what sent the missiles away, and the RTDS is the shield that protected those that
got through. These spells can be found on page 23 of the book quoted above. They can be found in Rifts Book of Magic
as well (Swallowing Rift, level 12 on page 146, and Rift Triangular Defense System, level 14 on page 151).

From the Swalling Rift spell we have: "Where these portals lead is unknown, but is presumed to be a limbo-like or
inhospitable environment."

Exactly this.

Anyone who wishes to switch blame tolkeen on an "if" simply does not read nor care what the books say about how they
went about protecting themselves.

They only wish / care about trying to make tolkeen appear as evil as they can. Its their agenda on these forums.

Because by the books, The Coalition are seen as the evil mini nazies.

"Where these portals lead is unknown, but is presumed to be a limbo-like or inhospitable environment."


So... the portals are PRESUMED tro be a limbo like or inhospitable environment.... but just as easily could be A Courscant type city planet and killed billions. Good job Tolkeen. Didn't look where you tossed Nuclear missiles. Only cared that they not hit you.

At least the CS had a military target.

How about you read the shifter class in rue. It is unlikly that if a shifter read the rift and said it is most likly limbo that it a courscant type planet. All mislces in rifts are considered smart bombs, nukes can not be off by secondary eplotions. So Giving that it is A a smart bomb and B a nuke it whould not go off unless all of its targeting paramiters are detected.

The part about the unknown is to let the GM have crative control. But by the stuff in rue it is mostlikly a Dim with no life. If it was a inhabited world like Courscant then the shifter whould see that when they check out the rift.

As it is unknown that means no shifter can go there and return.

You are judging them using falwed logic and as a Civie not taking into account the factors that military and goverments do.

And you ingore that fact that even if it did kill some one it whould be no difrent than bullets bouncing off a tank into a school.

Giving all factors avaible to them the Tolkeens defence systems had the best chance to save lifes without putting more lifes at risk. Swatting down missles with nukes means risking ground water. Sending them some where else that you can not find sighns of life does not.

Now i am not saying that there are not things that Tolkeen is guilty of but using a system to send nukes to anohter socitiy is not one of them.

I freely admit that many of the Tolkeens practice in the war where wrong and Eviel but the defence system was not. The Defence system did not travel it was set up as a line of defence for the noncombatants in the city. The attack came to them not the other way around.

[cornholioprime]

Go google for "murder definition". Result: The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Unless you consider self-defense unlawful, killing in self-defense is not murder.

--flatline

it IS murder, I just went over the difference between "Justifiable HOMICIDE" and "Not Murder". Realize that what I am telling you here is that ANY time one person forcefully ends anothers life it is murder, theres no two-ways about it. Please don't try and justify such a heinous action like it could be "ok" at some point.

Johnnycat, sorry to jump into this mini-kerfuffle, but Murder is, legally and morally, a different thing from Homicide.

All Murders are Homicides.

But not all Homicides are Murders; for example, executing the condemned after a just and fair trial by law.....or accidentally running over a kid who got in back of your car when you backed out of the parking lot.....or the aforementioned Killing in Self-Defense.

[Blue_Lion]

Go google for "murder definition". Result: The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Unless you consider self-defense unlawful, killing in self-defense is not murder.

--flatline

it IS murder, I just went over the difference between "Justifiable HOMICIDE" and "Not Murder". Realize that what I am telling you here is that ANY time one person forcefully ends anothers life it is murder, theres no two-ways about it. Please don't try and justify such a heinous action like it could be "ok" at some point.

OK you just insulted every one who ever served to defend there country with one stupid little sentence. You are not talking about self defence or murder by a person. You are talking about a action taken during a time of war, by your statement ever soldier that has ever killed while serving during any war as murders and should be treated as such.

So you think that every world war 2 vet should go to jail, as well as any cop that took a life in the line of duty. That is what your quote is saying. By your statement If i saw some one armed and killing a bunch of little kids and had to use deadly force to stop them I should be treated as some one that comited murder.

Instead of looking up legal defintions used to cover normal non war operations look up and read the Laws of War, all judments of actions taking by countries during times of war are determined guilt by these laws. The are difrnent and to some who has never served in the military during war they might seam to allow horible actions to happen but they re written the way they are for a reason.

[flatline]

Go google for "murder definition". Result: The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Unless you consider self-defense unlawful, killing in self-defense is not murder.

--flatline

it IS murder, I just went over the difference between "Justifiable HOMICIDE" and "Not Murder". Realize that what I am telling you here is that ANY time one person forcefully ends anothers life it is murder, theres no two-ways about it. Please don't try and justify such a heinous action like it could be "ok" at some point.

"Murder"

http://www.thefreedictionary.com: The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com: The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse.

http://www.merriam-webster.com: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

Sorry, dude, but that word just doesn't mean what you think it means (cue Princess Bride reference).

--flatline

[Mack]

Please allow the 'murder' debate to fade away, and limit this to a Rifts discussion.

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually it says...

Due to the abundance of weapons-grade nuclear material, a material produced in the power plants of the CS war machines, the Coalition is able to produce 50 devices of up to one megaton yield per year!

I read that to mean that the CS has the capacity to produce up to 50 megatons of these so called super nukes. The stats of the two Firefly (CSN pg 48) indicates it has only a 100 kiloton warhead and the Tomahawk (also CSN pg 48) indicates it has only a 200 kiloton warhead. There are no stats in the book that I have for any nukes with a yield higher then 200 kilotons.

I actually agree with you to what it should be, but by the quoted statement i think you are wrong. 50 devices "of up to" meaning that not all 50 devices are 1 megaton, so each one of those tomohawks and fireflies count as 1 device each. It has been estimated that they would have about 450 devices by 109, not including the original stockpile.

Since we're getting into the technical semantics of the sentence instead of the most likely intended meaning, I'll point out the following:
The quote above states that the Coalition is able to produce 50 devices per year.
It does not say that this is their maximum output.
It does not say "able to produce up to 50 devices," nor does it say "able to produce a maximum of 50 devices," nor does it say "able to produce a total of 50 devices," nor anything else that specially sets the total that they are able to produce at 50 devices.

Similarly, I could truthfully say the following:
"Due to the abundance of food in my pantry and local stores, I am able to eat three meals per day."
But the truthfulness of that claim would not conflict with me truthfully claiming:
"Due to the abundance of food in my pantry and local stores, I am able to eat five meals per day."
There is no limitation placed in the first quote- it's only an indication that I have sufficient supplies to eat an average number of meals per day.

So IF we want to try to focus on the book's statement as written, in a strictly technical sense, it does NOT preclude the CS creating more than 50 nuclear devices per year.

Of course, I'd prefer that we look at the most likely intended meaning instead of the strictest technical meaning, but since we're apparently not doing things that way...

Part of your post is arguing with me when I actually agree with you and Slim.

I wasn't necessarily arguing against you, simply pointing something out.

I am not a big fan of the Canon mentality on the boards, as in many posters say it only matters if it is in canon, if no page number and exact text then it is just ýour house rule.

That's because it's the only way we can talk about the same game.
It actually resolves/prevents more arguments than it starts.

I thought you were one of the canon only people till yester when i saw a post by you that mentioned how you believe in the spirit of it and not the exct.

Oh, I am all in favor of canon, but the problem is in determining what exactly canon is.
IN that other thread, I pointed out that misprints, typos, mis-statements, and vague passages aren't necessarily correct.
I think you're confusing two different things.
Canon is "the official text."
RAW is "Rules As Written," where you go with whatever the text says, exactly as it is written.
If a passage states that the "Moops" invaded Spain in the 8th century, then RAW would mean that something called the "Moops" invaded Spain.
Canon would allow for interpreting the text under the assumption that the writers really meant "Moors."

A Rifts-specific example of this would be in the original Rifts book.
Early printings contain a passage that refers to "Emperor Tromm," which was the original name for Emperor Prosek. The reference was there by mistake, and was edited out in later editions.
Canon interpretation would allow for an understanding that the passage referring to "Emperor Tromm" is actually referring to Emperor Prosek.
A RAW reading of the passage would require an understanding that there actually IS (or was) somebody named "Emperor Tromm" in the Coalition States.

I believe in good sense and the books are vague, contradictory ext, so it requires some logical navigation and tweaking like the above quote we are talking about.

Agreed.
Which is why I pointed out what I did.
My interpretation of the passage is that the CS can create up to fifty 1 MG nukes per year, OR a larger number of lesser nukes.
That's what makes the most sense.

But other people in this thread have been arguing from more of a RAW viewpoint which doesn't allow for any alternate interpretation than the strictest sense.
So I pointed out for those people's benefit, and for the benefit of anybody listening to their argument, that the strictest reading of that passage STILL doesn't support the claim that the CS can ONLY create 50 nukes per year, regardless of size.

Also, i dont think it matters if the CS max is possibly more ext because it says they can make 50 devices a year. Could they make more if they cut other areas? Sure but it is not the norm.[/quote]

[Killer Cyborg]

As for the defense, I cut out a few parts (it's several paragraphs long). However, from the description and evidence
availabe, what it seems here is that Tolkeen used a combination of Swalling Rift and Rift Triangular Defense System
(RTDS). The "Swalling Rift" spell is what sent the missiles away, and the RTDS is the shield that protected those that
got through. These spells can be found on page 23 of the book quoted above. They can be found in Rifts Book of Magic
as well (Swallowing Rift, level 12 on page 146, and Rift Triangular Defense System, level 14 on page 151).

From the Swalling Rift spell we have: "Where these portals lead is unknown, but is presumed to be a limbo-like or
inhospitable environment."

Exactly this.

Agreed.
Tolkeen sent the nukes to another dimension that they guess to be uninhabited, but they don't really know.
Which means that they made the choice to nuke some place that might well have a population living there.
If that's not callous, I'm not sure what is.

[Blue_Lion]

Please allow the 'murder' debate to fade away, and limit this to a Rifts discussion.

You are right I am sorry but it has l appolgise for fallowing it down that dark alley and adding fuel.

The key to morality by the rules in PB games is the aliemnt tables. So lets have that decide withere it was wrong/eviel or justifed/good.
If a action can not be done withing the limits listed for a good aliement then it is not justifed/good. So the question is whitch of the limitations of all good alienments block this action from beeing used by the good guys?

[Killer Cyborg]

the book clearly stated that the
magic went to a limbo like or inhospitable place.

No, the book clearly stated that the magic sent the nukes to a place that Tolkeen presumed to be limbo-like and inhospitable.
The book makes no mention of why they believed this, nor what the realities of that other dimension actually are.

[Blue_Lion]

the book clearly stated that the
magic went to a limbo like or inhospitable place.

No, the book clearly stated that the magic sent the nukes to a place that Tolkeen presumed to be limbo-like and inhospitable.
The book makes no mention of why they believed this, nor what the realities of that other dimension actually are.

Ah but logicaly why whould they presume that rift A does X unless they where told it did X by some one. Do you think mages are like hey i just found/created a spell lets use it to defend ourself without knowing what it does? Or whould mages go Wait we just opened a rift how can i use this spell?

I tend to hink mages are edjucated and whould ask question what it does. Now as many shifters whould want to know about rift X and tolkeens military and defence schintest included shifters. Some whould try to read the rift and or travel threw it. Now I am away from home and don't have my book with me, but what does the book say about a shifter reading a rift, and traveling thre it?

[Pepsi Jedi]

So... the portals are PRESUMED tro be a limbo like or inhospitable environment.... but just as easily could be

Wrong, Absolutely wrong. When the book says is presumed to be a limbo like or inhospitable enviorment.

There is not room for you to presuppose your own agenda or "ideas" in there. As the book clearly stated that the
magic went to a limbo like or inhospitable place.

If it would have said anything like it is unknown where they went, then yes by all means. But not if it leads off with
a very hard / factual effect of limbo like / inhospitable.

Course you can always play like that in your game hehe

You clearly don't understand the nature of a presumption. The book said it was presumed to be a limbo like inhospitalbe enviroment.

YOU are saying, that the book CLEARLY STATED.... but it didn't.... they presumed.

That means there is --------------exactly---------------- room to presume a different outcome. A presumption isn't fact. When you're trying to be factual you can't play fast and loose with the language.

Not trying to be snarky but you can't say 'They guess that it's this way" and then automaticaly say the guess is fact and preclude other guesses. lol. That's silly.

[Pepsi Jedi]

At least the CS had a military target.

A nuking a civilian population is not a military target. If they had a true military target, they would not have had to
target a city, but instead a military base. With out civilians present.

Out of the two war'ing parties, only Tolkeen had a military target. The CS had a mixed civilian population with military
but matter of factly it was not a military instilation they attacked or nuked, it was a City.

1) Why are you taking, a rather short post of mine, and breaking it up and replying to it multiple times?

2) You're wrong. Tolkeen had been building up it's military for 16 or 17 years. It was a military target. They just had civilians livin' on base. You can't purposefully build up your city and military for over a decade spoiling for a fight 'TO MAKE THEM PAY!!" and then claim innocent civilians. That's crap.

[Nether]

@KC

Your clarification between RAW and Canon have 'clarified' for me the difference as i can admit I had always treated them with the same meaning.

[Nether]

So... the portals are PRESUMED tro be a limbo like or inhospitable environment.... but just as easily could be

Wrong, Absolutely wrong. When the book says is presumed to be a limbo like or inhospitable enviorment.

There is not room for you to presuppose your own agenda or "ideas" in there. As the book clearly stated that the
magic went to a limbo like or inhospitable place.

If it would have said anything like it is unknown where they went, then yes by all means. But not if it leads off with
a very hard / factual effect of limbo like / inhospitable.

Course you can always play like that in your game hehe

You clearly don't understand the nature of a presumption. The book said it was presumed to be a limbo like inhospitalbe enviroment.

YOU are saying, that the book CLEARLY STATED.... but it didn't.... they presumed.

That means there is --------------exactly---------------- room to presume a different outcome. A presumption isn't fact. When you're trying to be factual you can't play fast and loose with the language.

Not trying to be snarky but you can't say 'They guess that it's this way" and then automaticaly say the guess is fact and preclude other guesses. lol. That's silly.

The way I read the quote is that they sent some people to said dimension with say a vehicle to check the place for lifeforms, and based on what they could perceive in their scouting they found no life forms, so it was çonsidered' uninhabitable. There could have been a life form or resident there that they could not see, or did not encounter in their scans / looking and therefore it is dubbed uninhabited. Thats up to interpretation of the words.

[Pepsi Jedi]

As for the defense, I cut out a few parts (it's several paragraphs long). However, from the description and evidence
availabe, what it seems here is that Tolkeen used a combination of Swalling Rift and Rift Triangular Defense System
(RTDS). The "Swalling Rift" spell is what sent the missiles away, and the RTDS is the shield that protected those that
got through. These spells can be found on page 23 of the book quoted above. They can be found in Rifts Book of Magic
as well (Swallowing Rift, level 12 on page 146, and Rift Triangular Defense System, level 14 on page 151).

From the Swalling Rift spell we have: "Where these portals lead is unknown, but is presumed to be a limbo-like or
inhospitable environment."

Exactly this.

Anyone who wishes to switch blame tolkeen on an "if" simply does not read nor care what the books say about how they
went about protecting themselves.

They only wish / care about trying to make tolkeen appear as evil as they can. Its their agenda on these forums.

Because by the books, The Coalition are seen as the evil mini nazies.

"Where these portals lead is unknown, but is presumed to be a limbo-like or inhospitable environment."


So... the portals are PRESUMED tro be a limbo like or inhospitable environment.... but just as easily could be A Courscant type city planet and killed billions. Good job Tolkeen. Didn't look where you tossed Nuclear missiles. Only cared that they not hit you.

At least the CS had a military target.

How about you read the shifter class in rue.

How about you read the direct quote from the book where it states, that they PRESUMED? How about that?

It is unlikly that if a shifter read the rift and said it is most likly limbo that it a courscant type planet.

And yet, the direct quote from the book, said they made a presumption. *Shrugs* When one does that, one doesn't KNOW. One presumes. The language isn't even questionable. It doesn't say "They KNEW" it says straight up "They Presumed". Presumptin means they could be right, could be wrong. Why is this in question?

All mislces in rifts are considered smart bombs,

Page?

nukes can not be off by secondary eplotions. So Giving that it is A a smart bomb and B a nuke it whould not go off unless all of its targeting paramiters are detected.

That's cute to say, please cite a page to back up your claim. I don't remember such stipulations but I'll admit the possibility of being wrong. Please show me where it says this?

The part about the unknown is to let the GM have crative control. But by the stuff in rue it is mostlikly a Dim with no life. If it was a inhabited world like Courscant then the shifter whould see that when they check out the rift.

Because shifters are all nice people? Or because the demons and demonic armies of Tolkeen were all nice people.. Or wait.. The generals. Surely they were all nice people... Or the king! He was a nice guy. Right? Wait.. you say that there were armies of evil demons... other demons.. black fairies.... monsters.... brodkil.... and the generals had evil alignments as did the king?

Again. You're making an assumption of goodness not in evidence. The book said the rifts were presumed to go to a limbo like dimension, but no proof. No difinative statements to that effect.

As it is unknown that means no shifter can go there and return.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess a shifter didn't ride the nukes through like Slim pickin's.

And also I'll take a moment to point out that the Rifts defense system wasn't just some shifters standin' up on a hill. It was a magical defense system that worked differently than all other previous magical items of that nature in the game, that came before it. So it works.... like they tell us it works, as it was a "Hand of god" thing to start with to make the war longer than 5 minutes long.

You are judging them using falwed logic and as a Civie not taking into account the factors that military and goverments do.

LOL this is a joke. I'm one of the loudest people on here that complain OTHERS don't treat the CS like a military or treat them like a true military. You're making assumptions again there Blue.

And you ingore that fact that even if it did kill some one it whould be no difrent than bullets bouncing off a tank into a school.

I've already explained why this isn't true. Read it or don't. It's not like a bullet bouncing. It's like if someone throws a grenade, you catch it and then YOU throw it into a school. You have the choice of throwing it the other way or falling on it. You can blame the other guy for the grenade, but you're the one that throws it into the school. Blame is on you too.

Giving all factors avaible to them the Tolkeens defence systems had the best chance to save lifes without putting more lifes at risk. Swatting down missles with nukes means risking ground water. Sending them some where else that you can not find sighns of life does not.

Sure it does. Just not YOUR ground water. And that's the overall point. Tolkeen doesn't know where they sent them. They don't care. They just sent them "Some where else" with out looking. In doing so there's just as much possibility they hit other people, as if they didn't. In that you don't know and can't factor either way. So both are equally possible.

Now i am not saying that there are not things that Tolkeen is guilty of but using a system to send nukes to anohter socitiy is not one of them.

But you don't know that. Neither do I. You even said it was in there to give the game masters the ability to control it. So, that ABILITY is there. It hasn't been defined. You're treating a presumption and possibility as fact and it's simply not.

I freely admit that many of the Tolkeens practice in the war where wrong and Eviel but the defence system was not.

Possibly. But it possibly was. I'm not saying "For SURE 100% they hit another dimensions people!!!!!" I'm saying "They presumed nothing was there and threw nukes through a hole. They may have nuked a bunch of people in atomic fire through careless use of magic.

The Defence system did not travel it was set up as a line of defence for the noncombatants in the city. The attack came to them not the other way around.

You act like a city that has been militerized for over a decade can be seperated from the military aspect of it. Was it a city? Yes. Was it the main base? Yes. Was it full of Enemy combatants? yes. Where there civilians there supporting them? yes.

If you don't want your civilians hurt, don't hide among them. Set up a military base AWAY from the city. Not THE CITY. But don't make your city your main military strong hold then cry when the war you have been building to for 17 years comes and they shoot at you.

[Pepsi Jedi]

2) You're wrong. Tolkeen had been building up it's military for 16 or 17 years. It was a military target.
They just had civilians livin' on base. You can't purposefully build up your city and military for over
a decade spoiling for a fight 'TO MAKE THEM PAY!!" and then claim innocent civilians. That's crap.

Your wrong.

Time does not make it change. Change a city to a base.

Quote me any part of any book that Calls Tolkeen a military base, or a military compound.

Prove your point.

*Picks up the stack of war on tolkeen books and puts them infront of you* Read away. The city state was militerized for over a dozen years in eager anticipation of the war. The fact that the military is stationed there and they have military defenses proves my words. The city was the main base for Tolkeen's side for the entire war. There's books worth of material on this. You can't just ignore 5 or 6 books man.

[Killer Cyborg]

@KC

Your clarification between RAW and Canon have 'clarified' for me the difference as i can admit I had always treated them with the same meaning.

Most arguments stem from different understandings of the world and/or the key terms in the discussion.
So I'm generally happy to clarify if/when I clue in what the miscommunication/misunderstanding is about.
Thank you for taking the time to help enhance our mutual communication.

[Nightmask]

Whether or not Tolkeen's Rift Defense actually did send the missiles into a lifeless dimension to the best of Tolkeen's knowledge that's where they were sent, a location where no one would be harmed. Their intent was to protect their populace without hurting others.

The CS on the other hand tried to nuke a heavily populated civilian location unprovoked with the intentions of killing every man, woman, and child within its borders simply for existing. There can be no dispute about that. 'They were building up troops to defend against us' isn't a justification.

[Killer Cyborg]

The book makes no mention of why they believed this, nor what the realities of that other dimension actually are.

From the Swalling Rift spell we have: "Where these portals lead is unknown, but is presumed to be a limbo-like or
inhospitable environment."

Base line right there, meaning we have no reason what so ever unless your reaching to say its anything other then
what the base line description states it is.

And we have no reason whatsoever to believe that the dimension is uninhabited.
Unless you're basing your argument on an assumption that IF Tolkeen is correct, THEN the dimension actually IS uninhabited.
But that's basing your argument on an IF.

And further reading actually shows any living being accidentally placed in or who falls into it is spit back out of
that when the magic elapses.

Care to quote those passages?

Further producing evidence, that it is an inhospitable limbo like place, devoid of life.

It could indicate that.
But there are any number of other explanations.

[flatline]

You can't just ignore 5 or 6 books man.

Well, you can, but that doesn't change the fact that those books are canon (for whatever that's worth).

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

the book clearly stated that the
magic went to a limbo like or inhospitable place.

No, the book clearly stated that the magic sent the nukes to a place that Tolkeen presumed to be limbo-like and inhospitable.
The book makes no mention of why they believed this, nor what the realities of that other dimension actually are.

Ah but logicaly why whould they presume that rift A does X unless they where told it did X by some one.

I don't think that "we sent nukes to another dimension because some guy said it was okay" really changes anything.

[Nether]

At least the CS had a military target.

A nuking a civilian population is not a military target. If they had a true military target, they would not have had to
target a city, but instead a military base. With out civilians present.

Out of the two war'ing parties, only Tolkeen had a military target. The CS had a mixed civilian population with military
but matter of factly it was not a military instilation they attacked or nuked, it was a City.

2) You're wrong. Tolkeen had been building up it's military for 16 or 17 years. It was a military target. They just had civilians livin' on base. You can't purposefully build up your city and military for over a decade spoiling for a fight 'TO MAKE THEM PAY!!" and then claim innocent civilians. That's crap.

I dont think it is as simple as you make it sound.

Most militarizes for ages have understood the diff between military target and civilian. Many Military bases are not spread out with the civs, it is a base of personal, and even in a city it is somewhat separate. Normally, an attacker actively chooses if his target is military or civ.

Now where the line blurs is when the military tries to hide within the civs, which means that military actively chose to endanger the civs lives as if they were all military targets now.

Now Tolkeen is a city state nation, and I am not aware that they spread their military within the civs to use them as protection, so I would assume that like most nations they have military areas / bases where the personal/weapons/equip/vehicles ext are.

Then there is using nukes, well you cant nuke most targets without choosing to eradicate all the population no matter military or civ.
The CS's action in choosing not to just use nukes, but as a first resort weapon shows me that morally their is no more evil they could be. There is plenty of humans that live there that arent mages.

What did Tolkeen do to 'deserve' extermination en masse?

You cant tell me that building up your military and 'participating' in a arms race (even if they were losing) is evil when you consider the CS next to them keeps threatening. Who in their right mind would not build up arms to try and ensure your nations security?

Could they have moved? Sure, but it is their home, and even in our society people fight for their land or nation, just as they do for their freedom.

They way your posts are worded to me strongly support a CS bias as the good guys and Tolkeen the in the wrong. Reverse the situation and see if you feel the same about it. The CS are the small technological city state that accepts pretty much everyone and Tolkeen is the big NA empire that is only pro human.

In this example of reversed roles would you be agreeing that Tolkeen was right to launch nukes at the little CS city state?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Whether or not Tolkeen's Rift Defense actually did send the missiles into a lifeless dimension to the best of Tolkeen's knowledge that's where they were sent, a location where no one would be harmed. Their intent was to protect their populace without hurting others.

The CS on the other hand tried to nuke a heavily populated civilian location unprovoked with the intentions of killing every man, woman, and child within its borders simply for existing. There can be no dispute about that. 'They were building up troops to defend against us' isn't a justification.

Intention means nothing if they nuked a planet full of peaceful people.

Tolkeen had been militarized for 17 years. "innocent civilians" could have left at any point int he 17 years. They chose to stay in the city eagerly preparing for a war with the intent on teaching the CS a lesson. To try and make it out like it was a civilian location is an obfuscation to hide the fact it was their main military base. Nor was it unprovoked. As pointed out Tolkeen was a member of the Fed. The Fed attacked the CS firstt. Were repelled and then laid dormant strengthening. In Tolkeen's case they saw the war coming and went straight into military footing and preparing for the war, with the intent to crush the CS and teach them lessons. These are not the intentions of an innocent population of civilians.

To make it out like they were only sitting there minding their own business is clearly a lie, as has been pointed out previously with quotes from thebook where Creed was voted in and purposefully went about building a military to crush the cs.



Did the CS launch the nukes? Yeah. They did. Was that not nice? nope. Not at all. But don't be a Lyin' Ryan here. We've got fact checkers.

[Killer Cyborg]

Whether or not Tolkeen's Rift Defense actually did send the missiles into a lifeless dimension to the best of Tolkeen's knowledge that's where they were sent, a location where no one would be harmed. Their intent was to protect their populace without hurting others.

The CS on the other hand tried to nuke a heavily populated civilian location unprovoked with the intentions of killing every man, woman, and child within its borders simply for existing. There can be no dispute about that. 'They were building up troops to defend against us' isn't a justification.

On my part, I never said that the CS was justified.
All I said was that sending nukes to another dimension where there might be innocent civilians is pretty callous.
Somebody launching nukes at you doesn't give you moral free license to pass the buck to somebody else.

[Blue_Lion]

Ok yes tolkeen did have military basses in there city but giving the state of Rifts earth every city does. Now if you read the final siege you whould see they had miliarty bases and produciton facilites in the city. But the CS did not limit there targets to tacticle targets they also bombed coledge campuses that had been used to house displaced refugees. That was not a miliarty target. Now it comes down to was tolkeen using its citisens as human shields. From what i rember from the final siege tolkeen had military forces deploued on a defencive permiter and at main military bases withing the city. They placed sepeation from civie targets and there combat forces puting key defensive units between civie targets and the enemy.

Now unlike in modern world a city in rifts needs to have it military close at hand more like a mediviel city than modern military layout. This is not them turning a church or school into a miliary hiding place but needing to be close to stop rampaging demons and monsters.

The CS sent in SF to case the city so they knew what was a miliary target and what was not. Does having a national guard armor in New yourk make the whole city a fair miliarty target?

[Nether]

You act like a city that has been militerized for over a decade can be seperated from the military aspect of it. Was it a city? Yes. Was it the main base? Yes. Was it full of Enemy combatants? yes. Where there civilians there supporting them? yes.

If you don't want your civilians hurt, don't hide among them. Set up a military base AWAY from the city. Not THE CITY. But don't make your city your main military strong hold then cry when the war you have been building to for 17 years comes and they shoot at you.

This would be the way to go, but the CS's track record would most definitely show that they will slaughter civilian or military alike, there is no difference for them.

So if Tolkeen had military bases outside of the city, the CS would have most definitely nuked them too, and it would have been easier as no military defense. We all know it is a common MO for the CS to kill anyone they dont like, ie dbee villages ext.

[Blue_Lion]

You act like a city that has been militerized for over a decade can be seperated from the military aspect of it. Was it a city? Yes. Was it the main base? Yes. Was it full of Enemy combatants? yes. Where there civilians there supporting them? yes.

If you don't want your civilians hurt, don't hide among them. Set up a military base AWAY from the city. Not THE CITY. But don't make your city your main military strong hold then cry when the war you have been building to for 17 years comes and they shoot at you.

This would be the way to go, but the CS's track record would most definitely show that they will slaughter civilian or military alike, there is no difference for them.

So if Tolkeen had military bases outside of the city, the CS would have most definitely nuked them too, and it would have been easier as no military defense. We all know it is a common MO for the CS to kill anyone they dont like, ie dbee villages ext.

Actualy the fact that they had the miltary bases inside the city had notihng to do with the CS and every thing to do with you defend a city in Rifts from every day threats. Now the base was focused in a small part and the CS bombing both nucler and non nucler target both civilian and military targets. The nukes used as recal from SOT 6 where small taticle LRM many where fired at the dragon city.
Not leaving your home or fleeing to a walled citty when some one burns your town does not make you a military target.

[flatline]

Intention means nothing if they nuked a planet full of peaceful people.

No, intention is exactly the crux of the matter.

You can't seriously believe that there's no difference between killing someone on purpose and killing someone accidentally. Sure, the result is the same: someone is dead, but one is murder and the other is an accident (maybe negligent manslaughter if you could have reasonably avoided it).

And I don't have the books so I can't see the exact text, but when I hear the words "presumed X", I assume that no evidence was found contrary to X and, unless otherwise specified, a good faith effort was made to verify X.

--flatline

[Pepsi Jedi]

At least the CS had a military target.

A nuking a civilian population is not a military target. If they had a true military target, they would not have had to
target a city, but instead a military base. With out civilians present.

Out of the two war'ing parties, only Tolkeen had a military target. The CS had a mixed civilian population with military
but matter of factly it was not a military instilation they attacked or nuked, it was a City.

2) You're wrong. Tolkeen had been building up it's military for 16 or 17 years. It was a military target. They just had civilians livin' on base. You can't purposefully build up your city and military for over a decade spoiling for a fight 'TO MAKE THEM PAY!!" and then claim innocent civilians. That's crap.

I dont think it is as simple as you make it sound.

Most militarizes for ages have understood the diff between military target and civilian. Many Military bases are not spread out with the civs, it is a base of personal, and even in a city it is somewhat separate. Normally, an attacker actively chooses if his target is military or civ.

Normally yes. In this case. No. the military was purposefully built up around the city, to purposefully use the city's magical power sources and pyramids to fuel the military's power, offensive and defensive capabilitys.

Now where the line blurs is when the military tries to hide within the civs, which means that military actively chose to endanger the civs lives as if they were all military targets now.

Now Tolkeen is a city state nation, and I am not aware that they spread their military within the civs to use them as protection, so I would assume that like most nations they have military areas / bases where the personal/weapons/equip/vehicles ext are.

Not really. While they did have outposts and all, the city was built to be the main line of defense, with Tolkeen fighting a gurellia war as they defended against the CS larger numbers and purposefully drew them in for the Sorcerer's revenge.

That's not to say there was no outlying defenses. There were but most were built up in and around Tolkeen itself, to get the fuel from the magical power grid.

Then there is using nukes, well you cant nuke most targets without choosing to eradicate all the population no matter military or civ.
The CS's action in choosing not to just use nukes, but as a first resort weapon shows me that morally their is no more evil they could be. There is plenty of humans that live there that arent mages.

Depends on how you look at it. If you nuke tolkeen and save 100,000 CS lives. It can be easily argued that the use of Nukes saved HUMAN lives. (( I don't personally go this way but the arguement IS made. Remember the CS didn't see tolkeen as "HUMAN" they were "DBees and Evil Magic users". Not equals))

What did Tolkeen do to 'deserve' extermination en masse?

1) They were members of the FEd which attacked and tried to irradicate humanity and the cs.
2) They consort, and shelter aliens. ((DBees)) Which have invaded earth.
3) They have militerized a magical nation that threatens national security of the CS.
4) They brook and deal with demons. (( Stated in Creeds' write up to have started 16 or 17 years prior to the war)) The CS did NOT know that Tolkeen had rifted in an entire ARMY of demons but they knew that demons were accepted and a part of tolkeens over all forces. (( The revelation of the Demonic armies just further solidified that they were an evil magical society. Which... they had become. ))

You cant tell me that building up your military and 'participating' in a arms race (even if they were losing) is evil when you consider the CS next to them keeps threatening. Who in their right mind would not build up arms to try and ensure your nations security?

It was evil though, because that build up was with the express purpose of doing to the cs what the cs was going to do to them. It wasn't "Just for defense" it was to irradicate the cs's armies and teach them alesson and make them pay. It wasn't "Just to defend our selves"

Nor are the actions of incorporating demons and witches and black faries and finding and rifting in and building TW weapons for an entire demonic race, that of innocent defenders.

Also, they could have left and avoided the war all together. Like ---everyone-- told them to.

Could they have moved? Sure, but it is their home, and even in our society people fight for their land or nation, just as they do for their freedom.

That was the choice they made, and when they made it, through Creed, and chose to stay and make the CS pay. Instead of holding on to that 'upper ground' is the first step to their RAPID descent into evil. Where in they became, exactly what they were accused of being, and indeed, in the end, deserved what they got.

They way your posts are worded to me strongly support a CS bias as the good guys and Tolkeen the in the wrong.

No. I think they were both wrong. _____BOTH_____ of them. Many of my posts are just spent refuting that Tolkeen was some poor innocent kitten sitting there with big eyes and the CS came along and played golf with their head. It just wasn't like that. They both wanted the war. They both got the war. Tolkeen was just ----- stupid ----- and they got what they deserved for BEING that stupid. 1) Not runnin' when they had the chance and 2) not just falling into evil but running and diving into it as hard and fast as they could. I hate stupidity. lol. Both were wrong. Both did evil things in the war. Tolkeen just did stupid things. (( Big ones))

Reverse the situation and see if you feel the same about it. The CS are the small technological city state that accepts pretty much everyone and Tolkeen is the big NA empire that is only pro human.

In this example of reversed roles would you be agreeing that Tolkeen was right to launch nukes at the little CS city state?

Tolkeen fielded armies of demons. They did the same things in different ways. BOTH are at fault. BOTH wanted the war... tolkeen was just the 5'1" guy with Little Man Syndrome thinking it was going to kick the butt of the 7 foot tall giant, mixed martial artist, kung fu master, who also had a gun. Tolkeen got in a few good licks. One dirty shot to the testicles. Then the CS stomped on them so hard that their city is rubble and their people scattered to the winds.

[Pepsi Jedi]

*Picks up the stack of war on tolkeen books and puts them infront of you* Read away. The city state

The mere fact that in order to discuss Tolkeen, you, yourself have even refrenced it as a City state, not a military
base, Does not strengthen your side of the debate what so ever.

Again , Please quote ANY book that calls the City of Tolkeen a Military Base.

Any book printed by Palladium will do.

The final seige is an entire thick book about the City and it's military defenses. Open it. Read. Point made.