CS nuclear capabilities

[Nightmask]

Schrödinger's cat anyone?

Seems we're to that point in this discussion... though mostly because of differing interpretations of the word "presumed" based largely upon the twisting nature of blind hatred upon ones thought processes.

Until a Rifts book (or at least a palladium books' line) is released that directly talks about this we will never know if the nukes did anything, and because of our ignorance of this detail this discussion is pointless as the so called defenders of Tolkeen (More like blind haters of the CS) will not stop in their blatant refusal to see even the smallest sign of reason.

Sad how you toss out that comment about blind hatred and think it's the other side that's got the problem rather than your own. Except it's blind support of the evil empire twisting everything to argue in their favor that's shutting down any sign of reason on your side, in this case the fallacy that 'without perfect proof of x then it must be y'. The nature of the spell is considered to send things to a dimension where there is no life, to make such an assumption one must have things to base that on, those who developed the spell clearly intended it to work that way.

As far as the cat goes, completely non-applicable. The thought experiment (created to show how illogical quantum mechanics is rather than support it) states that the cat is neither alive or dead until someone opens the box to observe things (a failed logic process as it ignores the observer IN the box, i.e. the cat, who determines events by himself). What we have here is the CS fanboys already having an agenda, they always take the worst possible spin on anything against the victims of the CS to make them out to be deserving of their genocidal actions. Anyone pointing out that it's complete nonsense is then called a blind hater for not being blind supporters of an evil empire, which just constitutes epic fail on the blind supporter side.

[Nightmask]

Schrödinger's cat anyone?

Seems we're to that point in this discussion... though mostly because of differing interpretations of the word "presumed" based largely upon the twisting nature of blind hatred upon ones thought processes.

Until a Rifts book (or at least a palladium books' line) is released that directly talks about this we will never know if the nukes did anything, and because of our ignorance of this detail this discussion is pointless as the so called defenders of Tolkeen (More like blind haters of the CS) will not stop in their blatant refusal to see even the smallest sign of reason.

Sad how you toss out that comment about blind hatred and think it's the other side that's got the problem rather than your own. Except it's blind support of the evil empire twisting everything to argue in their favor that's shutting down any sign of reason on your side, in this case the fallacy that 'without perfect proof of x then it must be y'. The nature of the spell is considered to send things to a dimension where there is no life, to make such an assumption one must have things to base that on, those who developed the spell clearly intended it to work that way.

As far as the cat goes, completely non-applicable. The thought experiment (created to show how illogical quantum mechanics is rather than support it) states that the cat is neither alive or dead until someone opens the box to observe things (a failed logic process as it ignores the observer IN the box, i.e. the cat, who determines events by himself). What we have here is the CS fanboys already having an agenda, they always take the worst possible spin on anything against the victims of the CS to make them out to be deserving of their genocidal actions. Anyone pointing out that it's complete nonsense is then called a blind hater for not being blind supporters of an evil empire, which just constitutes epic fail on the blind supporter side.

Agreed on the Schrodingers cat thing,

But....
Wow.
I don't really think that reading the text makes anyone a 'CS Fanboy'. I mean honestly the entire point of this arguement is that tolkeen did not know what was on the other side of that rift. I mean really, thats what the book says. Presumption is not technically knowing. I don't see how this could demonize Tolkeen or glorify the CS, its really just a minor detail. Its really beside the point and unnecessarily aggresive to be calling ANYONE fan boys, blind haters, blind supporters, sad, or anything like that.

What the book says is that they presumed it was inhospitable to life, which means they must have had some idea what the dimension was like. Courts presume innocence and require overwhelming (generally) proof to the contrary before finding someone guilty of something. Yet since the moment I made my offhand comment the CS supporters have been insisting that Tolkeen must have been rifting their missiles off to inhabited locations (all while behaving as if Tolkeen were intentionally bombing innocents rather than the CS being the one who did that), and the post I replied to explicitly refers to those who don't accept the 'Tolkeen was bombing innocents!' nonsense as being driven by blind hatred with the implication that one would have to believe that they were if only they weren't so 'blind'.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

so they were presume to been rifted to a place where it was inhospitable

well i guess we will never know and i dont think we going to know, until KS decides if he does or doesnt wish to revisit it.

[cornholioprime]

No, what it means is that they presumed that it was uninhabitable. No more, no less. They may have done investigation, they may have not. Presumptions as a concept requires no actual evidence. We have no canon sources that say how much investigation that they did or did not performed.

But aren't presumptions in the here and now typically arrived at by observations made and conclusions reached in the past?

I truly have never heard of somebody presuming something based on no prior evidence or observation whatsoever; they might very well be wrong in their presumptions, but I can't envision how somebody comes to a presumption in a given situation based entirely on nothing.

[Pepsi Jedi]

so they were presume to been rifted to a place where it was inhospitable

well i guess we will never know and i dont think we going to know, until KS decides if he does or doesnt wish to revisit it.

Thats pretty much the jist of it

It'd be pretty interesting if Megaverse in flames brings the war to rifts earth due to Tolkeen's tossing the bombs through the rift and inadvertantly hitting Demon or Deevil powers (( or both)).

[Pepsi Jedi]

No, what it means is that they presumed that it was uninhabitable. No more, no less. They may have done investigation, they may have not. Presumptions as a concept requires no actual evidence. We have no canon sources that say how much investigation that they did or did not performed.

But aren't presumptions in the here and now typically arrived at by observations made and conclusions reached in the past?

I truly have never heard of somebody presuming something based on no prior evidence or observation whatsoever; they might very well be wrong in their presumptions, but I can't envision how somebody comes to a presumption in a given situation based entirely on nothing.

Prejudice and Bigotry happens all the time. Based on nothing but opinion and preconceived notions.

They can presume there's nothing there, because they didn't take the time to look.

Or they can Presume there's nothing there, because when they opened a rift to there. Nothing stuck it's head through and went 'What up homie?" (( Though the 'filter' on it would probably prevent that.

They could presume there's nothing there, because they don't WANT it to have anything there. Imagine if you've been working for 17 years on a defense system to 'save' your base in a war. The war comes and your commander goes "Mage dude, that rift defense system work?" and you know it works but you peeked through and saw a glimmering city of triplet super model women with awesome bodies, but your Evil general is glaring at you and the air is crackeling over his head. You might nod and go "yeah boss. It's working. No problem" And your evil general might just nod and HE presume there's noone on the other side, because the underling just didn't say anything about there BEING people on the other side.

Ohhh those poor supermodel triplets.

There's plenty of ways to PRESUME things not in evidence. Therein lies the rub. If you presume, you don't know. If you don't know, and you're playing with nukes....

[Pepsi Jedi]

note that the source book 4 info is in reference to the 100 plus kiloton Strategic weapons...
the missiles the CS used against Tolkeen were sub-kiloton tactical nukes (the nuclear LRM's
of the missile chart). otherwise the city of Tolkeen would be a radioactive crater after the
first volley, because just one 150 or 200 kiloton nuke would level the entire city,

Actually the super nukes, from all I've seen do 3d4x100md. In rifts earth, thats not enough
to make a building a crater.

The debate over the laughable damage capacity of Nuclear weaponry is an old and quite long one, and a bit of a separate topic.

Trust me, if you start the topic it will explode (pardon the pun) with dozens and dozens of replies a day.

[Giant2005]

No, what it means is that they presumed that it was uninhabitable. No more, no less. They may have done investigation, they may have not. Presumptions as a concept requires no actual evidence. We have no canon sources that say how much investigation that they did or did not performed.

But aren't presumptions in the here and now typically arrived at by observations made and conclusions reached in the past?

I truly have never heard of somebody presuming something based on no prior evidence or observation whatsoever; they might very well be wrong in their presumptions, but I can't envision how somebody comes to a presumption in a given situation based entirely on nothing.

Prejudice and Bigotry happens all the time. Based on nothing but opinion and preconceived notions.

They can presume there's nothing there, because they didn't take the time to look.

Or they can Presume there's nothing there, because when they opened a rift to there. Nothing stuck it's head through and went 'What up homie?" (( Though the 'filter' on it would probably prevent that.

They could presume there's nothing there, because they don't WANT it to have anything there. Imagine if you've been working for 17 years on a defense system to 'save' your base in a war. The war comes and your commander goes "Mage dude, that rift defense system work?" and you know it works but you peeked through and saw a glimmering city of triplet super model women with awesome bodies, but your Evil general is glaring at you and the air is crackeling over his head. You might nod and go "yeah boss. It's working. No problem" And your evil general might just nod and HE presume there's noone on the other side, because the underling just didn't say anything about there BEING people on the other side.

Ohhh those poor supermodel triplets.

There's plenty of ways to PRESUME things not in evidence. Therein lies the rub. If you presume, you don't know. If you don't know, and you're playing with nukes....

But none of those scenarios qualify as a presumption as per the definition.
For it to be a presumption, the prime requirement is a "strong likelihood" none of those situations imply any evidence for or against the likelihood of life on the other side.
A "strong likelihood" requires some kind of evidence swaying the odds in favor of there being no life. Meeting the need for evidence implies that Tolkeen had to have researched the Dimension.

[Pepsi Jedi]

No, what it means is that they presumed that it was uninhabitable. No more, no less. They may have done investigation, they may have not. Presumptions as a concept requires no actual evidence. We have no canon sources that say how much investigation that they did or did not performed.

But aren't presumptions in the here and now typically arrived at by observations made and conclusions reached in the past?

I truly have never heard of somebody presuming something based on no prior evidence or observation whatsoever; they might very well be wrong in their presumptions, but I can't envision how somebody comes to a presumption in a given situation based entirely on nothing.

Prejudice and Bigotry happens all the time. Based on nothing but opinion and preconceived notions.

They can presume there's nothing there, because they didn't take the time to look.

Or they can Presume there's nothing there, because when they opened a rift to there. Nothing stuck it's head through and went 'What up homie?" (( Though the 'filter' on it would probably prevent that.

They could presume there's nothing there, because they don't WANT it to have anything there. Imagine if you've been working for 17 years on a defense system to 'save' your base in a war. The war comes and your commander goes "Mage dude, that rift defense system work?" and you know it works but you peeked through and saw a glimmering city of triplet super model women with awesome bodies, but your Evil general is glaring at you and the air is crackeling over his head. You might nod and go "yeah boss. It's working. No problem" And your evil general might just nod and HE presume there's noone on the other side, because the underling just didn't say anything about there BEING people on the other side.

Ohhh those poor supermodel triplets.

There's plenty of ways to PRESUME things not in evidence. Therein lies the rub. If you presume, you don't know. If you don't know, and you're playing with nukes....

But none of those scenarios qualify as a presumption as per the definition.
For it to be a presumption, the prime requirement is a "strong likelihood" none of those situations imply any evidence for or against the likelihood of life on the other side.
A "strong likelihood" requires some kind of evidence swaying the odds in favor of there being no life. Meeting the need for evidence implies that Tolkeen had to have researched the Dimension.

Thing is, a presumption doesn't take "A strong Likelihood"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/presume

pre·sume
   [pri-zoom] Show IPA verb, pre·sumed, pre·sum·ing.
verb (used with object)
1.
to take for granted, assume, or suppose: I presume you're tired after your drive.
2.
Law . to assume as true in the absence of proof to the contrary.
3.
to undertake with unwarrantable boldness.
4.
to undertake (to do something) without right or permission: to presume to speak for another.

Or if you don't like that one

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/presume

pre·sume (pr-zm)
v. pre·sumed, pre·sum·ing, pre·sumes
v.tr.
1. To take for granted as being true in the absence of proof to the contrary: We presumed she was innocent.
2. To constitute reasonable evidence for assuming; appear to prove: A signed hotel bill presumes occupancy of a room.
3. To venture without authority or permission; dare: He presumed to invite himself to dinner.
v.intr.
1. To act overconfidently; take liberties.
2. To take unwarranted advantage of something; go beyond the proper limits: Don't presume on their hospitality.
3. To take for granted that something is true or factual; suppose: That's the new assistant, I presume.

Or this one.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/presume

pre·sume
verb \pri-ˈzüm\
pre·sumedpre·sum·ing
Definition of PRESUME
transitive verb
1
: to undertake without leave or clear justification : dare
2
: to expect or assume especially with confidence
3
: to suppose to be true without proof <presumed innocent until proved guilty>
4
: to take for granted : imply
intransitive verb
1
: to act or proceed presumptuously or on a presumption
2
: to go beyond what is right or proper

Or this one

http://presume.askdefine.com/

presume
Verb
1 take to be the case or to be true; accept without verification or proof; "I assume his train was late" [syn: assume, take for granted]
2 take upon oneself; act presumptuously, without permission; "How dare you call my lawyer?" [syn: make bold, dare]
3 constitute reasonable evidence for; "A restaurant bill presumes the consumption of food"
4 take liberties or act with too much confidence



As you can see.... the word doesn't mean quite what you think that it does. A presumption doesn't need a strong likelihood. Infact.. it pretty much precludes it, based on the fact it's a presumption. And I didn't even dig for those. those are the top listings of the definition if you type in "Define presume" into google. I didn't pick and choose. I listed off them in order.

[Giant2005]

As you can see.... the word doesn't mean quite what you think that it does. A presumption doesn't need a strong likelihood. Infact.. it pretty much precludes it, based on the fact it's a presumption. And I didn't even dig for those. those are the top listings of the definition if you type in "Define presume" into google. I didn't pick and choose. I listed off them in order.

The definition that was shown in this thread earlier had the requirement of a strong likelihood and three of your definitions also made that indication.
But now I understand your argument and it seems one that can not be solved due to the fault of the English language.
Looking at all of those definitions, they have an extreme range to the extent that the word "presume" can be considered an antonym of itself.
Both groups using virtually opposite meanings of the same word are both correct within the English language.

[Killer Cyborg]

The thing that makes me wonder.

People on this site, try to say there is no way Tolkeen could have known anything about the rift, yet canonly
we have shown at least two classes which were in major abundance in tolkeen that had the capability
(and probably many more psychic's atleast)

Yet a known magic community would be so callous to not do their home work ? Why, because it suits
your guys arguement?

That logic does not make sense on any level. Especially with the following information.

Shifters have this very real ability.

READ DIMENSIONAL PORTAL:
instills the character with the following, Destination is relatively dangerous/hostile or safe
to the psychic.This includes whether or not the enviroment can support human life.

SWALLOWING RIFT:
Where the portal leads to is unknown, but is PRESUMED to be a limbo-like inhospitable enviorment.

Let us Check out some numbers now .


Total population for Tolkeen Peacetime 890,000 beings.
6% Ley Line Walkers.
5% other Practicioners of Magic.
8% Psychic.


Out of Tolkeen's population who could have this ? Lets take a look and check it out. As of
on Tolkeen book 7.

19% of the peacetime population that has the ability to have 1 or the other ability to read the Portal
to find out whats on the other side directly. And a whopping 5% of which has the chance to have not only
the psychic ability but also the spell ability ! ! !

Exactly what is 19% of 890,000 beings ? 169,100 beings with the ability to to find out for Tolkeen.

Shall we see some of the more notable beings in Tolkeen who could easily have had major incluence working
on the the project. Shall we ?

Baarrtk Krror
- (Psionics) All sensative, one of which is in fact DIMENSION SENSE
_ (Magic) All spells levels 1-15. One of which is the spell SWALLOWING RIFT.

And he was in fact in Tolkeen 84 years prior to the tolkeen war. Not only could he have been one of the
key people who were used to create the system, chances are high that he was the one who came up with it.

Salkind, The Metal Mage,
He was born an raised in Tolkeen, he very well also could have been in on the
building of the defense network of Tolkeens. Whom knows all spells levels 1-12.
- READ DIMENSIONAL PORTAL : Class wide ability.
- SWALLOWING RIFT : 12th lvl spell.

Cervega Klister
- (Psionics) Sensative, SENSE DIMENSIONAL ANOMALY

There is not only a list of High ranking officials in Tolkeen prior to the entire invasion as well as a small
list of spells and or abilities via psionic's character class abilities and spells in which not only could help
Tolkeen in coming to the conclusion that the rifts is a place that is inhospitable to life but as well as a
limbo like place. Also of note, is the fact that living beings (no matter who) are kicked outta the dimension
once its magic has run its course further proving that life can not exsist in it with out it being an active
and open rift.

You can argue all you like about trivalities, but these are taken from the books themselves and provides more
canon answers then any agenda of anyone's to try to say its nukes went to explode on some one else.

Now that I've provided cited sources in which not only do I provide spells, psionics and class abilities, but I
also provided a complete list of beings who have either 1 or the other and at times both abilities as well as
the Rank needed to actually be working on the project.

The debate is over. Have fun.

I appreciate that you apparently expended some time and effort, and seem to have found a character who was in the right place and time to have helped find out information about that dimension.
But, again:
1. Dimension Sense doesn't tell you whether or not the dimension is inhabited.
2. The books clearly state that Tolkeen presumed that the dimension is uninhabited, which means that they necessarily did NOT know.
So any means that can be established which might have been used to determine for certain whether or not the dimension was inhabited ONLY change the picture insofar as they demonstrate things that Tolkeen apparently didn't bother to try, because IF they did try, THEN they would know.
And officially, they never knew.

[Killer Cyborg]

To label it a callus action when efforts where set up to use something that every one belived whould not kill people just does not make sense to me. If it said opens random dimentional portals that whould be one thing. But it opens a portal that the people using belived was empty. The belife is what made it not Callus, something must have made them belive it. Some one or something at some time witch had the authorty to make them belive what they said whould have to state such for a whole city state to (and mages as a whole) make them belive such a thing.

I agree (and have mentioned) that just sending stuff through a random rift IS different from sending stuff through a specific rift to a dimension that you believe is uninhabited.
My original comment was directed at the first scenario, because that's what was originally mentioned here.
I can also agree that what they did was less callous than using a random rift, and that they did act with good intent.

BUT it's still reckless, at the least.
They acted on presumption rather than fact.
That's something that everybody does, fairly regularly. The problem here is that the stakes were higher than most people ever see, because while everyday presumptions like crossing the street without looking both ways, or presuming that you have enough gas to make it to the next gas station, don't have very high stakes.
Even presumptions like "this building that we are about to demolish is presumably empty of people" have lower stakes than "this dimension we are about to nuke is presumably empty of inhabitants."
Possibly nothing could happen... but possibly you could be rendering intelligent species entirely extinct.
Taking that kind of risk is still callous, I think.

[Killer Cyborg]

Can I get the cliff notes from each side?

One side thinks "presumed" is a decision made in the complete absence of evidence.

I don't think anybody's said that, just that whatever evidence Tolkeen had was not sufficient to "know" that the dimension was uninhabited.
And it was insufficient, otherwise the text would have stated that Tolkeen sent the missiles to a place that they KNEW was uninhabited, or otherwise indicated a sureness of knowledge.
It's perfectly possible that Tolkeen acted reasonably, responsibly, and with good evidence.
But it's also perfectly possible that they acted rashly, irresponsibly, and without sufficient evidence.

Are you really ruling out this second possibility?

[Blue_Lion]

Cactualtions like that are part of miltarty operations. It is imposible to know all the possible outcomes and predict the resault of any military action. Part of planing any military actions is using estimated effects of the action and not taking the action then choose the path that will accieve success with as little unwanted resualts as posible.

To say we have no evvidence of reserch so none was done is just does not fall in line with any military defence ever.

No where does it say in cannon that none was done, giving the fact that most mages are scholar types edjucated with high mental stats you expect us to just say they whould trust the defence of the kingdoms heart to something they knew nothing about. Proving beyound a reasonable doupt that any dim is lifeless is near imposible. But you expect that to be required for it not be a callous or careless action.

People seam to forget that planing of military actions is not like any thing in civilians normal activity and it always includes a risk of loss of life. That does not mean making plans to defend your people is calous but you have to way your choices and pick the one you think has the best outcome.

[Killer Cyborg]

Schrödinger's cat anyone?

Seems we're to that point in this discussion... though mostly because of differing interpretations of the word "presumed" based largely upon the twisting nature of blind hatred upon ones thought processes.

Until a Rifts book (or at least a palladium books' line) is released that directly talks about this we will never know if the nukes did anything, and because of our ignorance of this detail this discussion is pointless as the so called defenders of Tolkeen (More like blind haters of the CS) will not stop in their blatant refusal to see even the smallest sign of reason.


All that said... would be a kicker to find out that the nukes launched by the CS in the future were the ones that set off the laylines in the past...

Yup.
Or that they kicked off the Big Bang.

[Killer Cyborg]

Cactualtions like that are part of miltarty operations.

So are callousness, a lot of the time.

It is imposible to know all the possible outcomes and predict the resault of any military action. Part of planing any military actions is using estimated effects of the action and not taking the action then choose the path that will accieve success with as little unwanted resualts as possible.

Certainly.
But usually those plans involve the lives of your soldiers and civilians, and the lives of the enemy soldiers/civilians.
They usually don't include the possibility of nuking third-parties who aren't involved in the conflict.

To say we have no evvidence of reserch so none was done is just does not fall in line with any military defence ever.

To say that we have no evidence of research, so therefore none must have been done, does not even fall in line with basic logic.
They may have spent years doing research.
They may have spent minutes.
We'll probably never know.
But whatever amount of research they did, it wasn't enough to let them know whether or not the dimension was inhabited, and they took the risk of sending the nukes there anyway.

[flatline]

Can I get the cliff notes from each side?

One side thinks "presumed" is a decision made in the complete absence of evidence.

I don't think anybody's said that, just that whatever evidence Tolkeen had was not sufficient to "know" that the dimension was uninhabited.

You're being completely unreasonable in your expectations.

That level of evidence can't exist. Outside of theory (like math), it's impossible to "know" something with 100% certainty. That's why scientists always use conservative wording when explaining results. Unfortunately, the media and masses don't understand that.

--flatline

[Mech-Viper Prime]

so they were presume to been rifted to a place where it was inhospitable

well i guess we will never know and i dont think we going to know, until KS decides if he does or doesnt wish to revisit it.

Thats pretty much the jist of it

It'd be pretty interesting if Megaverse in flames brings the war to rifts earth due to Tolkeen's tossing the bombs through the rift and inadvertantly hitting Demon or Deevil powers (( or both)).

i could see this happening, CS and Tolkeen both causing the Megaverse in flames aka the minion war

[Killer Cyborg]

Can I get the cliff notes from each side?

One side thinks "presumed" is a decision made in the complete absence of evidence.

I don't think anybody's said that, just that whatever evidence Tolkeen had was not sufficient to "know" that the dimension was uninhabited.

You're being completely unreasonable in your expectations.

That level of evidence can't exist. Outside of theory (like math), it's impossible to "know" something with 100% certainty. That's why scientists always use conservative wording when explaining results. Unfortunately, the media and masses don't understand that.

--flatline

It's not about level of evidence.
The difference in the real world between knowing something and believing something is ultimately whether or not you are correct.
If I come home, see a window open, and come to conclusion that there is an intruder in my home:
1. I don't have enough evidence to say for 100% certain.
2. If I were to describe my thoughts to another person at the time, I might accurately claim "I believe that there is an intruder in my home."
3. If I were to describe my thoughts to another person at the time, I might be able to informally claim that I "know" there is an intruder in my home, even though there is not enough information to prove my hypothesis.
4. Even though my initial evidence (the open window) was technically insufficient to prove that there was anybody in the house, the legitimacy any claims of "knowing" at the time or at a later date would depend on whether or not anybody was in fact in the home at the time.
If there was in fact an intruder in the house, then I could rightly claim that I "knew" that there was an intruder in the house from the moment that that I formed my hypothesis (assuming that I was confident in it). When describing the event with the benefit of hindsight, it would generally be more common for people to say something like "KC saw the open window and knew that there was an intruder in his house" than for them to say something like "KC saw the open window and presumed that there was an intruder in the house," even though either statement would be accurate.
5. In the case at hand, regarding Tolkeen, we're dealing with an omniscient narrator that can (and does) create the reality of the game world simply by setting words onto paper. So the facts of the matter stem entirely from what is written, and how it is meant.
IF the writer had stated "Tolkeen sent the missiles to a dimension that they knew to be uninhabited," THEN that would necessarily mean that the dimension IS uninhabited. It would set the facts in stone, so to speak.
But the writer instead chose wording to the effect of "Tolkeen sent the missiles to a dimension that they presumed to be uninhabited," which does NOT necessarily mean that the dimension IS uninhabited.
Which necessarily means that Tolkeen sent the missiles to a dimension that may or may not have been inhabited (as been pointed out, kind of a Schrodinger's Cat situation, with a box that none of us can actually open).
That's all that any of us are pointing out, I believe, that Tolkeen- according to all facts and logic- sent a barrage of nuclear missiles into a dimension that they did not KNOW was uninhabited.
6. None of us know what measures Tolkeen took to determine whether or not the other dimension was uninhabited, because the books never say. They might have just assumed based on nothing but sheer hubris. Or they might have spent decades investigating this particular dimension in every conceivable way, and come to a sure conclusion that the dimension was uninhabited, supported by reams of evidence.
I agree that the first case is unlikely, but considering the fact that the writer used the term "presumed" instead of "knew," I would say that the second case is equally unlikely.
IF Tolkeen's efforts were so thorough, why would the writer not use the word "know" instead of "presume?"
7. Getting back to the original point of this particular exchange: even IF anybody was discussing "know something with 100% certainty" instead of the context that I've explained above, that still would not, in any way, shape, or form, mean or indicate that that side held the view that

"presumed" is a decision made in the complete absence of evidence.

"Not having 100% evidence" is nowhere close to "having zero evidence."

[Pepsi Jedi]

As you can see.... the word doesn't mean quite what you think that it does. A presumption doesn't need a strong likelihood. Infact.. it pretty much precludes it, based on the fact it's a presumption. And I didn't even dig for those. those are the top listings of the definition if you type in "Define presume" into google. I didn't pick and choose. I listed off them in order.

The definition that was shown in this thread earlier had the requirement of a strong likelihood and three of your definitions also made that indication.

I'm sorry, but what??
"1.to take for granted, assume, or suppose: I presume you're tired after your drive." To take for granted or assume.... no strong likely hood
"2.Law . to assume as true in the absence of proof to the contrary." To assume, in absence of proof to the contrary, no strong likely hood
"3.to undertake with unwarrantable boldness." No strong likelyhood. In fact unwarrantable boldness indicates the opposite.
"4.to undertake (to do something) without right or permission: to presume to speak for another." Nothing to do with stron likely hoods.

Still goin'
"1. To take for granted as being true in the absence of proof to the contrary: We presumed she was innocent." To take for granted in absence of proof to the contrary. No strong likely hoods
"2. To constitute reasonable evidence for assuming; appear to prove: A signed hotel bill presumes occupancy of a room." To constitute reasonable evidence for ASSUMING. No strong likely hoods here either.
"3. To venture without authority or permission; dare: He presumed to invite himself to dinner." No strong likely hood.
v.intr.
1. To act overconfidently; take liberties.' Taking liberties, not strong likely hood
2. To take unwarranted advantage of something; go beyond the proper limits: Don't presume on their hospitality." To take unwarranted advantage and go beyond proper limits. Very apt. But no strong likely hoods here either.
3. To take for granted that something is true or factual; suppose: That's the new assistant, I presume." To take for granted, to suppose. No strong likely hood.

And the next

1: to undertake without leave or clear justification : dare" With out leave or clear justification. No strong likelyhoods
2: to expect or assume especially with confidence" To ASSUME, especially with confidence. Confidence of an assumption doesn't make it a strong likelyhood of being true.
3: to suppose to be true without proof <presumed innocent until proved guilty>" To SUPPOSE to be true, --with out proof--
4: to take for granted : imply" To take for granted.
intransitive verb
1: to act or proceed presumptuously or on a presumption
2: to go beyond what is right or proper

Out of all of those you have one that's a little close to what you're saying. To constitute reasonable evidence to ASSUME. The word just doesn't mean what one side of the debate thinks it means. And looking at it, it clearly means the oppsite. A presumption is not a fact. It's an assumption at the very best if not a purposeful overreach.

But now I understand your argument and it seems one that can not be solved due to the fault of the English language.

but it's not, there's no fault in the English language (( IN THIS CASE)) the word Presume just doesn't mean what one side is saying it means. It's not open to intrupretation. It means what it means and does not mean "Fact".

Looking at all of those definitions, they have an extreme range to the extent that the word "presume" can be considered an antonym of itself.

No they really don't. They all say it's an assumption and supposition. With out proof.

Both groups using virtually opposite meanings of the same word are both correct within the English language.

No. They're not. lol In all those above there's not one that says a presumption is a fact. The very closest you can get is an ASSUMPTION based off reasonable evidence. It's not like the word 'Bad' which can mean good if you're using slang or something.

Reading a list of definitions that say it's one way, you can't just go 'Wow. English language huh? It means both things" when it doesn't. It means just the one.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Cactualtions like that are part of miltarty operations. It is imposible to know all the possible outcomes and predict the resault of any military action. Part of planing any military actions is using estimated effects of the action and not taking the action then choose the path that will accieve success with as little unwanted resualts as posible.

To say we have no evvidence of reserch so none was done is just does not fall in line with any military defence ever.

No where does it say in cannon that none was done, giving the fact that most mages are scholar types edjucated with high mental stats you expect us to just say they whould trust the defence of the kingdoms heart to something they knew nothing about. Proving beyound a reasonable doupt that any dim is lifeless is near imposible. But you expect that to be required for it not be a callous or careless action.

People seam to forget that planing of military actions is not like any thing in civilians normal activity and it always includes a risk of loss of life. That does not mean making plans to defend your people is calous but you have to way your choices and pick the one you think has the best outcome.

So you're rolling the idea of "We possibly sent flights of 100 nuclear missiles into an unknown dimension that MIGHT be populated" as "Acceptable loss of life, and the best out come" (For Tolkeen).

That's pretty much what we've been saying. That it IS Callous if that was their mentality. "Don't care who gets nuked as long as it's not us!"

[Pepsi Jedi]

Can I get the cliff notes from each side?

One side thinks "presumed" is a decision made in the complete absence of evidence.

I don't think anybody's said that, just that whatever evidence Tolkeen had was not sufficient to "know" that the dimension was uninhabited.

You're being completely unreasonable in your expectations.

That level of evidence can't exist. Outside of theory (like math), it's impossible to "know" something with 100% certainty. That's why scientists always use conservative wording when explaining results. Unfortunately, the media and masses don't understand that.

--flatline

There's a difference between guessing, or assuming, and researching and verifying. A presumption means that you did not research enough to 'know'.

If someone opened a rift to earth, and peeked through and only saw parts of New Mexico with no houses or anything in sight. Presumed the planet was an empty desert wasteland and chucked 100 nukes through.. .but had they stepped through and turned around and saw a city a mile the OTHER way.. they'd have just launched 100 nukes into the US based on a presumption. Had they gone through. Paused. Looked around. Conducted searches for life and stuff. They may have made another conclusion.

You're right in that things are hard to know 100.00000000000000%. but the word presumption means it's an assumption with out proof.

[flatline]

You're right in that things are hard to know 100.00000000000000%. but the word presumption means it's an assumption with out proof.

Add "to the contrary" to the end of that statement and we're in agreement.

--flatline

[Mack]

This 'debate' ceased being productive quite a while ago.

Topic Locked.