How would the CS handle this?

[flatline]

Imagine that a Air warlock and a Temporal Wizard have a grudge against the CS. They manage to get inside Chi-town and create a Dimension Envelope that they hide in.

If they never voluntarily leave the Dimensional Envelope, how can the CS get to them? Only Shifters, Temporal Raiders/Practitioners, and magic users with the Temporal spells See Dimensional Anomaly or Sense Dimensional Anomaly can detect and enter the Dimensional Envelope and since the CS has exactly ZERO of those kinds of people, it seems that our grudge baring duo is untouchable.

From their untouchable sub-dimension, consider that the Air Warlock, with his 5 attacks per melee, can summon 4 Phantoms per melee and use his fifth attack to draw their PPE from them. That's enough PPE to completely replace the PPE he spent summoning them with 280PPE surplus that he gives to the Temporal Wizard. At the end of the melee, the four Phantoms are sent out of the dimensional envelope with the instructions "Destroy Everything".

So we have a steady state rate of 16 phantoms being released inside Chi-town every minute. They are invisible, have 40MDC, and do 2d6 MD per attack. They have no PPE and so will not likely be able to cast any spells. Since the Warlock must be at least 5th level to summon them, they'll hang around a minimum of 75 minutes unless they're destroyed sooner than that.

Now, every melee the Temporal Wizard is given 280 PPE to spend however he wants. He could, for instance, cast Summon Lesser Being every 30 seconds to summon Zavor which are then sent out of the envelope into Chi-town. Every time a Phantom attacks a Zavor, the Zavor will duplicate. This process can be sped up by subtly changing the command given to the phantoms from "Destroy Everything" to "Destroy Everything and make sure to punch a Zavor whenever you see one that isn't already in the process of duplicating".

To further speed up the zavor duplication, the Temporal Wizard might cast Power Weapon on sticks or toothpicks or something and give them to the zavor as they're sent out of the envelope.

So now we have a situation where 16 elemental fragments and 2 Zavor are being released into Chi-town's innards every minute and we have very good reason to believe that the Zavor population will grow exponentially at first and then plateau as the Zavor numbers begin to greatly exceed the phantom numbers (and the enchanted toothpicks expire).

Naturally, once the Zavor population in Chi-town is established, the Temporal Wizard would turn from summoning Zavor to more interesting things like entities, random MDC critters with animal intelligence, and maybe lesser demons and devils (carefully avoiding any that might be able to re-enter the dimensional envelope), or just letting Summon Lesser Being provide random critters for fun.

Once our warlock+wizard duo gets tired, they open a dimensional portal from within the envelope to return home. Keep in mind that the dimensional envelope will persist for years and the duo can return via dimensional portal any time they want to restart this whole scenario.

So, given this scenario, how could the CS prevent Chi-town and it's inhabitants from being utterly destroyed by this summoning storm?

--flatline

[Shark_Force]

i don't know. first we'd have to answer the question, "what happens if the area the envelope is hidden in is hit by some sort of effect that suppresses or even negates magic".

because whether or not the CS can find the envelope, it will probably take them less than 5 minutes to find out where the *entrance* of the envelope (where all the air elementals are coming from) is. in fact, unless you have some truly ridiculous placement, it's likely they'll be on their way as soon as you finish creating the envelope.

[flatline]

This is a scenario that two mid-level players could attempt. Heck, one player could try this if he were a Temporal Wizard demi-god with warlock powers, although that would actually be less effective than the two character approach.

As for successfully infiltrating Chi-town, please discuss the possibility/impossibility of it in another thread. In this thread, assume that somehow the Temporal Wizard got into Chi-town and survived for the 9 seconds or so required to cast Dimensional Envelope. Then after entering the envelope, he laid out his stuff, opened a dimensional portal home for the Warlock to enter, and then the scenario begins.

--flatline

[flatline]

Although in your scenario, the extent of magic infiltration (which many, including me, would contest would be highly unlikely to occur) that is present would pretty much mean that the CS is screwed. Its like "if the CS installed a bunch of nukes in the FoM, how could they stop it before they get set off?"

I do like the fact that you consider two mid-level magic users using easily obtainable spells (to them, anyway) to be comparable to "a bunch of nukes".

There are some on this forum who seem to think that mages are worse than grunts.

--flatline

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I have a feeling the zavor isn't going to be that helpful to the mages, beside looking at them and giving them the bird

[Giant2005]

Its not really a big deal.
They would just station a couple of guys at the entryway to blast everything that exits.
At 40 MD a pop and coming out in single file, they would be dead before they had the opportunity to do anything.

Plus considering that the door to the envelope is obviously open if the fragments are coming out, then those guys could chuck in some grenades if they get bored of blasting or get scolded for wasting resources for an extended amount of time.

[Dr Megaverse]

Hiring mercs to handle the problem and then gunning them down as "vigilante interlopers trying to do good but using methods we don't approve of" afterwards seems the most likely situation to me. Totalitarians have no problem, most of the time, breaking their own moral code to maintain the status quo.

[Balabanto]

One Nega-Psychic.

[Pepsi Jedi]

One Nega-Psychic.

Beat me to it. lol.

The CS has Psi-battalion.

Going with the (( Doubtful if you ask me)) Successful infiltration, then they get in and hide. They're going to be using magic. Psi Stalkers and Dog boys will zero in on this quickly (( Following the screams from the attacking air elementals rampage then using their sensing ability.

In sort order they're going to find the entrance to the closet.

1) You station dog boys in full eba in the area to sense magic for when the door is going to open.
2) You have skelebots there with grenades, to throw as soon as the door opens. Bunches of grenades with in that little envelope would likely ruin their day.
3) You have some Nega psychics. there to work together to counter the spell casting.

So that way when the door opens dozens of grenades get thrown in. The nega psycics keep the mages inside from casting new spells.

Heck you don't really need the grenades. 50 ( or 100, or 150, or 500) Skelebots with their rifles pointing at the opening that can fire the milisecond the door starts to open, set on 4D6 will shred the mages pretty quick. The Nega psy's can be sitting in lounge chairs behind the ranks of Skelebots.


They might cause a bit of ruckus. But not too terribly much.

[flatline]

The magic is being cast in another dimension. How will a nega-psychic have any chance of affecting it?

How will the dog boys detect it?

What makes you think that you can see/shoot into the dimensional envelope when something comes out of it? That's not part of the spell description.

All of this is happening in a matter of hours. What makes you think that the CS could figure out what's going on and hire magic using mercenaries and get them to Chi-town in time to make a difference? You're not suggesting that the CS already has magic using mercenaries on retainer inside Chi-town, are you?

--flatline

[Hystrix]

You're not suggesting that the CS already has magic using mercenaries on retainer inside Chi-town, are you?

--flatline

Actually I could totally see that. See COL Thaddeus Lyboc.

[ffranceschi]

The magic is being cast in another dimension. How will a nega-psychic have any chance of affecting it?

How will the dog boys detect it?

What makes you think that you can see/shoot into the dimensional envelope when something comes out of it? That's not part of the spell description.

All of this is happening in a matter of hours. What makes you think that the CS could figure out what's going on and hire magic using mercenaries and get them to Chi-town in time to make a difference? You're not suggesting that the CS already has magic using mercenaries on retainer inside Chi-town, are you?
--flatline

The answer to this problem lies with The Vanguard.

[Dr Megaverse]

All of this is happening in a matter of hours. What makes you think that the CS could figure out what's going on and hire magic using mercenaries and get them to Chi-town in time to make a difference? You're not suggesting that the CS already has magic using mercenaries on retainer inside Chi-town, are you?

--flatline

In this case I also have to say yeah. Need an atrocity to scare the populace and remind them of why they think you're so great? Get that mage on retainer who lives on level 15 to take care of it. Besides, if he says no then he "happens" to be found and quietly removed then it's just deny, deny, deny. C'mon they are painted as an amoralistic totalitarian regime, you seriously think having a mage on the books would bother the leadership?

[Killer Cyborg]

Having read over the spell, I don't think there's enough information in it to say.
Without knowing precisely how it works, there's no way to say precisely what tactics may or may not work against it.

[Faceless Dude]

Any arcology of this size is going to be able to seal up large chunks of itself into smaller airtight modules. Like the compartmenting on a warship. It'll have to have this, to deal with possible chemical threats, stemming a plague, and, in this case, holding air elementals in one place. I'd think within a few minutes of people being torn apart by invisible sources the whole pyramid would lock down and compartment. You could wreak major havoc in the compartment you started in, but not much past there I'd think.

[Faceless Dude]

Any arcology of this size is going to be able to seal up large chunks of itself into smaller airtight modules. Like the compartmenting on a warship. It'll have to have this, to deal with possible chemical threats, stemming a plague, and, in this case, holding air elementals in one place. I'd think within a few minutes of people being torn apart by invisible sources the whole pyramid would lock down and compartment. You could wreak major havoc in the compartment you started in, but not much past there I'd think.

And then psi battalion will be able to locate your envelope using the Sense Dimensional Anomaly sensitive power. Even if they can't get to it theyll know it's there. Then they sweep the complex looking for more of them. Security is knotted up at every entrance and exit. And congrats! You've given Chi Town it's 9/11: a relatively minor magic incursion that kills a very small percentage of the populace and changes l the lives of everyone else, PROVING that anyone with a lick of magic is just going to try and kill them. You'll have woken the sleeping giant, and filled it with terrible resolve.

[Blue_Lion]

Ok how the heck they get into a place that is imune to Teleporting and has dog boys at every entrence to set it up? Once it is up they whould be able to locate it with the track magic abilty or sense annomoly as it was made with magic. Now they whould station a group of troops infront of it and then block the entrence with a solid MDC object.

Not familar with the spell but giving that chi town has some special anti Telaporting power whould the spell even work? Could said pocket Dim be blocked by placing a solid object acrosss the spot the portal opens. How long does the spell take to cast? Or just give me the book and i will check my colection.

At best you whould Wake the semi sleeping giant and lead to another magic nation beeing wiped out, most likly New Lazlo.

(and how is your warlock using so much magic in a turn?)

[Blue_Lion]

OK looked it up in the big book of magic. Your warlock could not enter it, as he could not see the door. So half your force was just cut off. AS the phantaosms and air elementals(along with most summoned creatures) can not see the door to use it. Sense dimetetnal anomly will allow the CS to not only find it but they can see it as well they can cross it to the other side.

Good idea but going off the spell listed in the book of magic, and what is known about the CS it will not be verry devestating.

(I can't belive you actualy made me defend the CS )

[MikelAmroni]

which many, including me, would contest would be highly unlikely to occur

Fact is, that it happens more then most care to admit.

On that we'll agree. Much like U.S.' and its law enforcement, Chi-Town would be on the brink of disaster on a weekly basis, only the efforts of the ISS and Psi-Net would keep it from spilling over major. In fact it would make for an awesome campaign to answer questions like this - just make sure you actually give them the resources they'd need - psychics, psi-hounds, enough gear, and backup. But like the US populace, Chi-Town would be kept very unaware of how close they are to the brink everyday, and that would be the status quo. Chi-Town survives not simply because of script immunity, but rather it survives like all major cities do, a combination of a professional police and dedicated defense force doing their best to keep the place safe. Tolkeen survived everything but an army at it's door step. If anyone could put an army at Chi-town's doorstep, I could see it falling too. But that is what it would take, not a few well placed terrorist attacks. Terrorist attacks are meant to demoralize, not to inflict the kind of damage that actually changes anything, except for their immediate victims and their families. It stands simply because despite the individual power of some enemies, Chi-Town simply has more bodies armed to the teeth with enough firepower to negate them. Sure only 10% of the guys may hit - when you're talking about the CS army, you're talking about numbers. And speaking of victims, there are few things more fearsome than a populace angry and with their anger directed. And have no doubt their anger would be directed. Chi-Town's PR system is the best in the business. I imagine even old Splynny ends up taking notes every now and then. "Huh, I should have thought of that. Oh well, I will next time!" (he has the advantage of time )

1) You station dog boys in full eba in the area to sense magic for when the door is going to open.

Dogboys would lose the Abilities they use to find anything in EBA.

Not their psychic senses. They aren't required to actually "smell" in order to use their psychic senses. Their brains register it as a scent, but it's a psychic ability, not a physical ability. If what you said were true, no psychic would be able to use their abilities from within EBA, when we know they can.

3) You have some Nega psychics. there to work together to counter the spell casting

How would they counter a spell that is being cast in entirely another dimension?

To affect this reality (ie do anything aside from summon and open the hole) they have to cast into this reality. Also, the moment they open the door, they open themselves up to the nega-psychic or more likely psi-nullifier brought along to deal with threats JUST like this. Combine that with overwhelming firepower (in the heart of Chi-town, that's a given, not a question), and you have pretty decent containment once the psi-stalkers and dogboys find it. And have no doubts that if they can find a way to get in there, that many squads will be going in - likely to their deaths at first, but eventually those two mages will wear down. In this case the weight of what will be thrown against them will cause them to eventually fail. Now I'm not saying they wouldn't be successful in causing havoc, but in the end, all that would happen is that the CS will call it a random monster attack, PR the whole thing away, and tighten security trying to figure out how the heck they got there. It would be bad for a while, but in the end status quo would setle back in. In the burbs is another question entirely. There you could launch daily attacks of the kind that would wear down morale and man-power, but in the city, you're going to be expending a LOT of effort just to get a few guys in place. You'd do better having the elementals carry mundane explosives and placing them. As delivery systems they work wonders. And then another infiltrator, who doesn't have to reveal himself ever, triggers them - basically take the suicide bomber to the nth level.

The answer to this problem lies with The Vanguard.

There is no way the CS can contact the Vangaurd. So there is no way for them to get them and have them help. If they just showed up, an tried to help, they will get gunned down, because they might be mistaken for the very magic users causing this.

Not entirely true, and you're forgetting that the Vanguard actually looks for threats like this. But given that the threat was described actually in the Fortress City, not the Burbs (where the Vanguard operates), I'd have to agree that the Vanguard wouldn't be a factor.

Any arcology of this size is going to be able to seal up large chunks of itself into smaller airtight modules. Like the compartmenting on a warship.

I would absolutely LOVE, to read where this came from Perhaps you could showme where in the books this is located ?

There's nothing to suggest (that I'm aware of) that air tight containment is possible, but physical containment certainly would be. We're not talking an open city, but a city build into and around walls, walls that go all the way to ceilings. I suspect Faceless Dude is going off how he'd run the fortress city (which actually is not too far from how I would run it, to be honest), but aside from mentioning that they are in fact arcologies (sealed cities), the books are pretty mum on this specific fact.

And it should be noted that Chi-Town and the CS in general are not immune to teleportation unless you count the Fort Laredo article as canon for your games (I do, others do not, so it's not a specific factor in these discussions). And the only way a single attack would have the kind of effect to actually wipe out a nation would be for it to be on the scale of 9-11, and that is simply not within the capabilities of the attack described here. This would demoralize, not much else. And the CS is good at turning demoralizing defeats into rousing lessons that enflame the populace and the army.

[flatline]

OK looked it up in the big book of magic. Your warlock could not enter it, as he could not see the door. So half your force was just cut off. AS the phantaosms and air elementals(along with most summoned creatures) can not see the door to use it. Sense dimetetnal anomly will allow the CS to not only find it but they can see it as well they can cross it to the other side.

Good idea but going off the spell listed in the book of magic, and what is known about the CS it will not be verry devestating.

The warlock doesn't enter the normal way. He comes through a dimensional portal that is created by the Temporal Wizard between their home and the dimensional envelope.

Please cite the dimensional power you say lets the CS enter the dimensional envelope.

--flatline

[flatline]

The spells have already been cast before the summoned creatures leave the dimensional envelope. There is no opportunity for the nega-psychics or psy-nullifiers to interfere.

The spell description lists the people who are capable of detecting and/or entering the dimensional envelope. No psychics are listed.

--flatline

[flatline]

Ok how the heck they get into a place that is imune to Teleporting

Where the heck is this found at ? I have to read this !!

As I understand it, it was mentioned in a non-canon Rifter article.

Some people seem to think that non-canon and canon are synonyms when talking about these anti-teleportation rings.

--flatline

[Blue_Lion]

PG 249 (BOM)
Has a invisble door that only its creator ando thers with Temporal magic power can see and open.
ONly other men of magic with a knowledge of dimensions can [B]see the envelope and step insde. [B]
This includes those who can cast sennse and see dimentsional anomaly spells, Temporal Raidoers and shifeters

So those are pulled out of the spell description leaving of refences to men of magic. So they key is to get around the can't see it to step in. Now lets look as PSI powers.
See the invisible. PG. 176 (not listed as not working.)
Sense Dimensional (same page and detects Temporal or ley magic.)
So they can See the door, and seeing is the abilty to cross. Now as the door is in between dimetions just putting a MDC object abigger than it acros it while it is closed will stop it. Because the inside is removed and can't affect the outside. And the entrence is now blocked.

[Blue_Lion]

Ok how the heck they get into a place that is imune to Teleporting

Where the heck is this found at ? I have to read this !!

As I understand it, it was mentioned in a non-canon Rifter article.

Some people seem to think that non-canon and canon are synonyms when talking about these anti-teleportation rings.

--flatline

If i rember right there was hints in other things or statements from KS, because if not all you whould need to do is telport bombs inside Chi town and destroy it that way. But the anti-telaportion rings where not what i was refenceing to. It just always seamed to have its blocked quality to stop such a easy mage win.

[MikelAmroni]

I think he's referring to Sense Dimensional Anomaly (RUE 176), Read Dimensional anomaly (RUE 175), and the more generic Sense Magic (RUE 176), plus the psi-stalker (RUE 153) and Psi-Hound (RUE 145), which based on my reading would definitely get them in the right area. After that it's simply a matter of waiting out the people inside (who have to recharge their air every 2 hours btw, though I imagine that's one of the reasons you brought an air warlock), and destroying everything that comes out (see invisible is more common than you might think). And the moment a Zavor comes out, you have the exact location of the portal.

Also, Flatline, bringing the Warlock in via dimensional portal is moving the goalpost. That wasn't part of the original scenario. Not saying you wouldn't have to do precisely what you said, but it wasn't a part of the original scenario.

As for the Anti-Teleportation (Rifter 37 btw), there are a decent sized minority of us who do in fact consider this canon for our games. But as I said, as it is technically non-canon, it has no place in the discussion, a fact I was trying to make not just a few posts ago.

Sense Dimensional Anomaly won't actually let them see the door way, but as I said, that's not necessary. What is necessary is to contain the area, and bring in physical containment as well. The Zavors are the big thing giving the location away, not the ability to see the anomaly itself. You can, of course, mvoe the goalpost again and change monsters, but given what you gave already, that's the limitation, and how I would personally rule it. Namely you can wreak some havoc, but in the end you'll be contained even if you're not caught.

[Blue_Lion]

The spells have already been cast before the summoned creatures leave the dimensional envelope. There is no opportunity for the nega-psychics or psy-nullifiers to interfere.

The spell description lists the people who are capable of detecting and/or entering the dimensional envelope. No psychics are listed.

--flatline

Also it was cut and pasted from rifts england, before psi could sense dimentional anamoalies. So at the time it was written only mages could see it but as times change psi- powers where added. Given that the psi power mimics the spell listed.

[Blue_Lion]

I think he's referring to Sense Dimensional Anomaly (RUE 176), Read Dimensional anomaly (RUE 175), and the more generic Sense Magic (RUE 176), plus the psi-stalker (RUE 153) and Psi-Hound (RUE 145), which based on my reading would definitely get them in the right area. After that it's simply a matter of waiting out the people inside (who have to recharge their air every 2 hours btw, though I imagine that's one of the reasons you brought an air warlock), and destroying everything that comes out (see invisible is more common than you might think). And the moment a Zavor comes out, you have the exact location of the portal.

Also, Flatline, bringing the Warlock in via dimensional portal is moving the goalpost. That wasn't part of the original scenario. Not saying you wouldn't have to do precisely what you said, but it wasn't a part of the original scenario.

As for the Anti-Teleportation (Rifter 37 btw), there are a decent sized minority of us who do in fact consider this canon for our games. But as I said, as it is technically non-canon, it has no place in the discussion, a fact I was trying to make not just a few posts ago.

Sense Dimensional Anomaly won't actually let them see the door way, but as I said, that's not necessary. What is necessary is to contain the area, and bring in physical containment as well. The Zavors are the big thing giving the location away, not the ability to see the anomaly itself. You can, of course, mvoe the goalpost again and change monsters, but given what you gave already, that's the limitation, and how I would personally rule it. Namely you can wreak some havoc, but in the end you'll be contained even if you're not caught.

Actualy sense magic does not work says so in the spells discription.

[Killer Cyborg]

If what you said were true, no psychic would be able to use their abilities
from within EBA, when we know they can.

Sweet, if I am wrong. I would love to read the passage that states they
are able to.

You made the claim that EBA interferes with their powers.
Back it up, or back off.

[Blue_Lion]

If what you said were true, no psychic would be able to use their abilities
from within EBA, when we know they can.

Sweet, if I am wrong. I would love to read the passage that states they
are able to.

Where does it say they loose it in EBA?

Now as to opening the door and letting them across does not work that way. You have to see the door to cross threw it.

[MikelAmroni]

If what you said were true, no psychic would be able to use their abilities from within EBA, when we know they can.

Sweet, if I am wrong. I would love to read the passage that states they are able to.

I don't know where it is right now, but there is a specific statement that psychics can use their powers through any armor or vehicle with less than 250 MDC - ie my psi-nullifier using either a smiling jack or old school samas.

you have pretty decent containment once the psi-stalkers and dogboys find it

Thats just it. opening an closing a door an releasing the summoned beings. Will throw off all dogboy's ability to track that single door opening / closing. And why is it that you assume the dogboy's will be able to find it prior to anything happening by the mages ?
Many people on the site assume instant knowledge for the side they choose to love.In situations like this, where as thats an impossability.

I never said they'd find it before the mages did anything - I listed response to the problem, not preemption. At no point did I say it couldn't happen - I just said it wouldn't last that long.

There is no way the CS can contact the Vangaurd

Not entirely true, and you're forgetting that the Vanguard actually looks for threats like this.

Two things.
1. According to Rue, no magic users are allowed in the Fortress Cities, ever.
2. Thee only person in the CS government who actually has any inkling to the
validity of the Vandgaurd is in fact Colonel Joseph Prosek II. And even he
has no way of contacting the Vanguard.
If I have missed anything I would greatly appreciate you showing me something
to validate your statement ?

Did you miss the VERY next sentence where I basically SAID they could not react within Chi-Town's walls? I mean really, it's right THERE. I was agreeing with you!

And it should be noted that Chi-Town and the CS in general are not immune to teleportation unless you count the Fort Laredo article as canon for your games

Aww, I thought I had missed something canonly detailing how the Coalition was immune to Teleportation. My husband and I have the issue of the Rifter your refrencing, and he hates it. We do not use anything generally speaking that is not official in our games. tho we do at times have 1 shot scenario's in which we pit various verses mod, as we like to call it.

Well like I already mentioned, there are those of us who actually use it. But they are unfortunately quite non-canon.

[MikelAmroni]

If i rember right there was hints in other things or statements from KS, because if not all you whould need to do is telport bombs inside Chi town and destroy it that way. But the anti-telaportion rings where not what i was refenceing to. It just always seamed to have its blocked quality to stop such a easy mage win.

No teleportation bombs require a whole other set of circumstances to pull off, all of which can fail pretty easily, since it's rare for the mage with teleportation and the will to use it against the CS to have all of the spells necessary to actually waltz in and become intimately familiar with a location enough to actually teleport the bombs in. It CAN be done. It's just not easy, and there are a lot of times where the scenario can fail. And I would actually say that it does happen, hence why I actually use the anti-TP rings - it sounds like something the CS would come up with!

[MikelAmroni]

Not entirely true, and you're forgetting that the Vanguard actually looks for threats like this. But given that the threat was described actually in the Fortress City, not the Burbs (where the Vanguard operates), I'd have to agree that the Vanguard wouldn't be a factor.

This is what I was referring to. I bolded what you cherrypicked, then read the very next sentence.

And I meant what I said, the Vanguard specifically looks out for threats to the CS, mostly by making sure it never gets to the walls. And they DO have people with the ability to see through a ploy like this. Not many, but they do have the ability.

[flatline]

Also, Flatline, bringing the Warlock in via dimensional portal is moving the goalpost. That wasn't part of the original scenario. Not saying you wouldn't have to do precisely what you said, but it wasn't a part of the original scenario.

I have not moved the goalposts. The scenario started with the the warlock and wizard already in the dimensional envelope. I made no mention of how they got there in the original post because it is irrelevant to the scenario.

In a later post, I demonstrated how they might have gotten into the envelope to show that the scenario was, in fact, possible to start, but the goalposts remain firmly in place.

Also, I left myself a lot of wiggle room in what the temporal wizard does with the PPE he receives from the warlock. For instance, if the zavor population can be established in the first couple minutes of casting, then the wizard might stop summoning new zavor entirely and any CS troops that arrive on the scene wouldn't see where the zavor originated from.

It is my intent to listen to your posts and see if the strategy can't be adapted to account for the issues you folks point out. I'm also hoping to make people think about what clever spell casters can accomplish in small numbers.

--flatline

[Faceless Dude]

Any arcology of this size is going to be able to seal up large chunks of
itself into smaller airtight modules. Like the compartmenting on a warship.

I would absolutely LOVE, to read where this came from Perhaps you could show
me where in the books this is located ?

You already know the answer to this question, so why do you keep asking it? I supposed because the books never specify that the doors the Chi-Town have locks either means that they don't?

The original post was detailing an attack against a place where the defenses have not been written, and are theoretical at best. That means it's up to the individual GM to decide what countermeasures are in place.

And since you're just going to cry "house rule" anyway, I'll abstain from answering any more about how this attack would fare until TPTB release the states on the fortress cities, Chi-Town included and we'll see who is right, and who is wrong. But in the meantime I don't need to cross this particular bridge so I'm not paying your toll.

[MikelAmroni]

Hey, I play a spellcaster, I know what they can do in small numbers. You'd be surprised at how effective a 1 PPE spell can be (Blinding flash, ftw!). However, even changing your tactics slightly doesn't change the eventuality of being shut down. And note, I never once said it couldn't be done, or that it wouldn't cause damage - I only said that at the end of the day (or even a couple of days), the whole thing would just be "another reason why monsters and magic cannot be trusted. Be vigilant my brethren!"

[Shark_Force]

the default is that psionic powers can be used.

therefore, in the absence of rules stating otherwise, psionic powers can be used.

as KC has indicated, the question at this point is not "where does it say that they can", because being able to use psychic powers is the default for people with psychic powers. you would need a rule that says when they can't use the powers for the situation to change.

in any event, the envelope is really not explained very well. it doesn't cover what happens if the exit is filled in, or whether or not magic-negating abilities do anything (for example, if there is a dimensional envelope entrance in an area, and i cast anti-magic cloud in that area, what happen?).

but regardless, i still don't think you'd get much more than 5, maybe 10 minutes of unchecked reign of terror. there are dog boys and psi-stalkers all over the place, and they can detect magic in a ridiculous radius. when the envelope is cast, they will probably already know that a spell was cast in some general direction. a bit of triangulation (people on floor 5 say it's upwards, people on floor 7 say it's downwards, so it's on floor 6... people on the east side say it's to the west, people on the west side say it's to the north, you can figure it's not in the south or east of the base, and so forth) will quickly narrow down the general area, then they just keep tracking the scent of the phantom footmen coming out. whether or not they can see it, whether or not sense dimensional anomaly works, whether or not the vanguard gets involved, they will figure out where the entrance is. all they have to do is spot where the air elementals are popping out from.

what they can do with that knowledge is perhaps less clear, because we don't know enough about the portal, like whether you can throw grenades or fire lasers through it, or whether a nega-psychic dispelling it causes the envelope to expel the people within through the portal or if it just shuts down the portal, etc. a lot of that stuff is basically going to be dependant on house rules. but finding the portal exit/entry point? it really is going to happen quite quickly.

personally, i prefer the earth warlock hanging out somewhere below the city in a pocket in the earth scenario. you'd need an air supply, but that's not terribly hard to figure out... a TW device should be easy to buy that will get the job done.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Small point. Black Market has mention of CS Magic Detectors. As in technological. Not biological (Dog boys/Psistalkers).

I remember hitting that as I read through to write my review. I remember going "Man that's going to come up again".

[MikelAmroni]

Small point. Black Market has mention of CS Magic Detectors. As in technological. Not biological (Dog boys/Psistalkers).

I remember hitting that as I read through to write my review. I remember going "Man that's going to come up again".

I REALLY need to get that book.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Small point. Black Market has mention of CS Magic Detectors. As in technological. Not biological (Dog boys/Psistalkers).

I remember hitting that as I read through to write my review. I remember going "Man that's going to come up again".

I REALLY need to get that book.

Clarification. There's no "RULES" for a Coalition Magic Detector.

It's mentioned in passing while talking about something else. But it IS mentioned and is canon.

[Blue_Lion]

Actualy the tales of chi town burbs has a short story that takes place inside chi town. So they do talk about gate secerty and even talk about a level of isoaltioan between levels. Not shure on air tight thou.

Now giving that Chi town is againt syble of mage hate many new players early on think why don't they just telaport bombs inside. Some nations like Toleen before it fall, new lazlo and the city of brass may have the resorces to do large scale Telaporting bombings. Or dimentional raiders coming threw and attacking. The talk about that beeing a problem in Splyyn but it is never adressed in cannon as happening to CHI town. Giving the level of CS hating mages out there I have to ask why. The only thing i think of is some hidden plot hammer saying no. It may not be adressed in cannon but it is clearly there. Heck you don't think tolkeen revenge squads whould not telaport in bombs, or poision gas if they could? Something unknown is stoping it what it is I don't know. It could be location or some type of shielding a ritral cast by the vangaurd, spell of legend or pink fluffy bunnies.

[Blue_Lion]

Now giving that Chi town is againt syble of mage hate many new players early
on think why don't they just telaport bombs inside. Some nations like Toleen
before it fall, new lazlo and the city of brass may have the resorces to do
large scale Telaporting bombings. Or dimentional raiders coming threw and attacking.
The talk about that beeing a problem in Splyyn but it is never adressed in cannon
as happening to CHI town

Just because its not written about as having been done yet, does not mean its never
been done in the history of Coalition.

Mearly that its not yet covered.

As was pointed out in the thread up above, just because the doors on the Chi-Town
entrence are not written as having lock's, so to, the same could be applied to this.

The situation in which its needed to be discussed merely has not yet happened. Will
it happen unknown. But to imply its never been done before, and there is no explanation
as to why, would be folly if its not directly quoteable as being in the books that "its
never happened "

Small point, can anyone quote any (canon) book that shows Teleportation
into Fortress Cities, is impossible ?

I thaght I was clear it has been a vibe I have always gotten that it is simply a KS saying it whould not happen instead of any thing written down concreate. One magical rift letting loose an alien intelgence inside a sealed city whould resault in a large amound of civian casualties. Even in after math of war it did not talk about magical terrorism agaist the CS city states why whould such large choice be ignored.


Let me ask you this what by cannon stops telaportation and random rifts? Large magical kindgdoms like Tolkeen have TW devices to stop random rifts but what a about a sealed city state.

I know that by cannon magnetic fields do affect magic but not what affect they have on telaportation. What I do know from the books i do have access to is that not coverd and that it is not that it is ignored but in the curent state it is some how blocked. I never said it never happened just that it seams to be blaocked by some unknown force.

[Blue_Lion]

Let me ask you this what by cannon stops telaportation and random rifts?
Large magical kindgdoms like Tolkeen have TW devices to stop random
rifts but what a about a sealed city state.

Thee only power in any book that has the capability of stoping
teleportation ae Prymid magic.

thaght I was clear it has been a vibe I have always gotten that it is
simply a KS saying it whould not happen instead of any thing written
down concreate.

Ahh ok my mistake. I admitedly get excited about something if I do not
know about it in the world of rifts.

NP, and yes the TW device used to stop random rifts is based on pirmid magic. My hope is that what ever it is gets at least mensioned in the book for rifts in the minon war. But my guess giving that by cannon there is a refence to another setting for cannon rules for making spells, I whould think that the vanguard researced a spell that they could use to stop further TP attacks agaist CS cities. Probaly requiring members of the Vanguard to sacerfice themselfs to do it. But any spells made with that system are not cannon just the fact it can be done is.

[MikelAmroni]

Also keep in mind that KS is of the mind that you shouldn't irrovocably alter your setting. Sure a GM with a hate on for the CS can eliminate it. It's not that hard if you put your mind and the resources of a major power or three behind it. Of course then the very idea of Rifts North America changes dramatically - so dramatically it wouldn't resemble the game as written. Now a GM could in fact run that out if he were so inclined, but that would be so different from the canon game as to be an alternate dimension. How many threats to the wider world does the CS actually stop at the St. louis Arch, or from Downtown Chicago? We don't know, that's something you'd have to figure out. How would the other nations respond in the vaccuum of the CS? How much would the financial crisis destroy trade in North America? Let's not forget that the CS, not Northern Gun, not Manstique, not the Black market, and not Lazlo, provides the glue that actually holds everything together financially. So how would that play out...

It's simply easier from a writing standpoint to just give them what seems like script immunity NOT to have to reimagine the entire setting.