Archie vs Coalition. Who wins, and why ?

[Killer Cyborg]

There was a thread on Archie's factories a while back.
viewtopic.php?p=2476980

[Mech-Viper Prime]

There was a thread on Archie's factories a while back.
viewtopic.php?

The requested topic does not exist.

well thats that it doesnt exist

[Killer Cyborg]

There was a thread on Archie's factories a while back.
viewtopic.php?

The requested topic does not exist.

well thats that it doesnt exist

Fixed.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

There was a thread on Archie's factories a while back.
viewtopic.php?

The requested topic does not exist.

well thats that it doesnt exist

Fixed.

hmm ok nevermind lol

[masslegion]

Lets consider the quote in Rifter #4 "A.R.C.H.I.E. Three vs. The World" Official Source Material pg 65 all quotes are from this unless other wise stated.

When referring to Titan Robotics alone this comment is made. "Archie now seeks to expand his power base and intelligence network to prevent ignorance from being his enemy. He is trying to accomplish this by expanding his long-time robot selling operation to a level approaching and someday surpassing that of Northern Gun, Triax, and possibly Atlantis." It is interesting to note that when this quote was put into Aftermath the part about Titan Robotics outproducing Atlantis was not included. Why is he expanding Titan Robotics to this level? Only for the purpose of gathering intelligence. What kind of resources does the toaster have if he can produce at this level only for the purpose of intelligence.

Titan Robotics are only one aspect of what ARCHIE produces, others include, mechanoid robots, shemarrians, next Generation NEMA gear (which IMO has not been fully divulged , but we have what we have), the famous Glitterboy, his robot minions which he can and perhaps does produce around the clock with a tireless workforce of robots.

Not only does he have access to arguably the most advanced technologies from the Golden Age of Man, but he has learned and adapted some mechanoid technologies while "much still remain a mystery". What mechanoid technologies are currently at his disposal? "Advanced psionic, anti-gravity, and cybernetic technology is now at my disposal to be used as I desire."

Before their defeat, the Mechanoids had already retooled a good portion of the Cyberworks complex to produce their robot warrior. In addition, they shared much of their robot warriors. in addition they shared much of their knowledge of psionic powers and interfaces, cybernetics and bionics, weapon systems, and anti-gravity propulsion... Now Archie has expanded on their knowledge and technology and incorporated it into his own.

According to Spylnn Dimensional Market pg 66 ARCHIE is sneaking Mechanoid robots into Atlantis itself to be used later.

If ARCHIE is seeking to outproduce Northern Gun, Triax, and possibly Atlantis with only the Titan Robotics production aspect of his and Hagans schemes, then he has significantly more ability to produce beyond that single production line.

One note: As I read it ARCHIE's shemarrian warriors are kept in high enough numbers to fight off Horune Pirates, Spulgorth , and His Minions from gaining a foothold on the east coast, but no higher so as to not draw additional attention to himself. The sudden appearance of hundreds of thousands of shemarrian warriors much less millions of them will inspire fear and unwanted attention to the East Coast. ARCHIE does not want to destroy the CS. He wants to be its benevolent GOD and protector. ARCHIE wants to be the hero, well at least how he sees a hero. Archie was until Shemarrian Nation only concerned with his "campaign of intelligence"

I'd take the time to reference some more information from Shemarrian Nation, but I am tired and I desire the comfort of my bed and my pillow.

[cornholioprime]

Holy relax guys.

Here is a source that backs up what I have been saying as I have not 'claimed' any numbers as official here.

SB1, pg 11. wrote:
Furthermore, his superior robot designs and mass production capabilities can beat the
Coalition's any day of the week. The CS (and all people in the Americas) are fortunate
that the indecisive and timid A.I. is hesitant to make his presence known to the world

This statement shows that Archie's production abilities are SUPERIOR to the CS, not by a little, not by a lot, but by a landslide. It also says that not just the CS, but all of the people in the Americas which would be forutnate, so the combined production ability of CS, FQ, NG, Wilks, Bandito, ext would be lucky not to face Archie in this arena.

That is a pretty bold statement to make in the book and I would think it wouldnt have been made unless his production abilities really are that crazy.

Now the citation doesnt give specific numbers, but this clears up the counter points Cornholio brought up about CS production.

Hystix, you are posting in the other thread this was posted, yet you mention nothing of it? It shows me your only agenda.

It only "sort of" clears up the counter-points that I made.

Because while we can all now see an official piece of text that states that, indeed, ARCHIE can out-produce the Coalition on a one-to-one basis......this still doesn't cover how well he'll be able to continue to do so when a force that has his entire, current army outnumbered ten-to-one and more than ten-to-one, is tracking him down in combat, and destroying his production facilities piecemeal with a combined army that outshines his in every way besides the one-to-one fighting capability of his forces (including the fact that ARCHIE doesn't have much if any Heavy Weaponry, Air Support, or Heavy Armor).

Do you have a quote that says ARCHIE does not have these capabilities or are you using the absence of evidence is evidence of absence argument.

edit: typo ARCHIE

ARCHIE has an armed forces that pretty much consists ONLY of infantry troops; no air power, no armor, not even any artillery (unless maybe you count the swiveling shoulder projectors on the Monst-Rex).

Source: Rifts Sourcebook One (Original and Revised).

[masslegion]

Holy relax guys.

Here is a source that backs up what I have been saying as I have not 'claimed' any numbers as official here.

SB1, pg 11. wrote:
Furthermore, his superior robot designs and mass production capabilities can beat the
Coalition's any day of the week. The CS (and all people in the Americas) are fortunate
that the indecisive and timid A.I. is hesitant to make his presence known to the world

This statement shows that Archie's production abilities are SUPERIOR to the CS, not by a little, not by a lot, but by a landslide. It also says that not just the CS, but all of the people in the Americas which would be forutnate, so the combined production ability of CS, FQ, NG, Wilks, Bandito, ext would be lucky not to face Archie in this arena.

That is a pretty bold statement to make in the book and I would think it wouldnt have been made unless his production abilities really are that crazy.

Now the citation doesnt give specific numbers, but this clears up the counter points Cornholio brought up about CS production.

Hystix, you are posting in the other thread this was posted, yet you mention nothing of it? It shows me your only agenda.

It only "sort of" clears up the counter-points that I made.

Because while we can all now see an official piece of text that states that, indeed, ARCHIE can out-produce the Coalition on a one-to-one basis......this still doesn't cover how well he'll be able to continue to do so when a force that has his entire, current army outnumbered ten-to-one and more than ten-to-one, is tracking him down in combat, and destroying his production facilities piecemeal with a combined army that outshines his in every way besides the one-to-one fighting capability of his forces (including the fact that ARCHIE doesn't have much if any Heavy Weaponry, Air Support, or Heavy Armor).

Do you have a quote that says ARCHIE does not have these capabilities or are you using the absence of evidence is evidence of absence argument.

edit: typo ARCHIE

ARCHIE has an armed forces that pretty much consists ONLY of infantry troops; no air power, no armor, not even any artillery (unless maybe you count the swiveling shoulder projectors on the Monst-Rex).

Source: Rifts Sourcebook One (Original and Revised).

so you are using the absence of evidence is evidence of absence argument. Thank you for clearing that up. I have not claimed he does has these capabilities, but how do I know? There is no quote that I am aware of that says he does not have these files on hand or have these capabilities. All I have is the absence of any evidence based on ARCHIE not have be stated specifically as having these designs.

edit: I needed a ? mark

[Killer Cyborg]

ARCHIE has an armed forces that pretty much consists ONLY of infantry troops; no air power, no armor, not even any artillery (unless maybe you count the swiveling shoulder projectors on the Monst-Rex).

Source: Rifts Sourcebook One (Original and Revised).

Which of the things listed in SB1 does he use to move his troops to Atlantis?

[cornholioprime]

so you are using the absence of evidence is evidence of absence argument.

No, Sir, I am using the "If it isn't officially listed as a piece of ARCHIEs weaponry/armor, then it doesn't exist for ARCHIE" argument.

By the "logic" you're trying to push here, I guess that I get to say that the Coalition has a Demon Star at their disposal, and The Artifact, and the Cosmic Forge, because there isn't any Book that says that they don't have it.

Are you seriously trying to put forth that line of argument?

Thank you for clearing that up. I have not claimed he does has these capabilities, but how do I know? There is no quote that I am aware of that says he does not have these files on hand or have these capabilities.

I don't need a "quote" to tell me what ARCHIE does or doesn't have; I have a listing of his equipment made available to me by the Author himself.

[cornholioprime]

ARCHIE has an armed forces that pretty much consists ONLY of infantry troops; no air power, no armor, not even any artillery (unless maybe you count the swiveling shoulder projectors on the Monst-Rex).

Source: Rifts Sourcebook One (Original and Revised).

Which of the things listed in SB1 does he use to move his troops to Atlantis?

The exact means by which ARCHIE is getting these troops over to Atlantis, is AFAIK left completely open to speculation; it may involve one of his submarines that it normally uses to transport Titan Industries, and it may involve piecemeal smuggling of "humans" to the continent as slaves by (unwitting) monstrous creatures who are secretly being paid by ARCHIE.

[Giant2005]

ARCHIE has an armed forces that pretty much consists ONLY of infantry troops; no air power, no armor, not even any artillery (unless maybe you count the swiveling shoulder projectors on the Monst-Rex).

Source: Rifts Sourcebook One (Original and Revised).

Which of the things listed in SB1 does he use to move his troops to Atlantis?

The exact means by which ARCHIE is getting these troops over to Atlantis, is AFAIK left completely open to speculation; it may involve one of his submarines that it normally uses to transport Titan Industries, and it may involve piecemeal smuggling of "humans" to the continent as slaves by (unwitting) monstrous creatures who are secretly being paid by ARCHIE.

Or more likely, he is using his anti-grav tech.

[masslegion]

(including the fact that ARCHIE doesn't have much if any Heavy Weaponry, Air Support, or Heavy Armor).

Archie's ground forces would be basically like sending giant robots in minature form to take them on each and every single soilder
each and every single one of them able to bring to bear a Boom gun against the Coalition forces.

And as far as his Air Support. Archie has various types of Samas available to him.

Most notably among them include. The Samas archie / hagan built for hagan. And txt in one of the books that I am currently looking for suggests he has schematic's to build both types of Samas that the Black market has, Wild weasel and the other one.


As well as Golden Eagle Samas, and the Standard original Samas as well. Heck archie could put his bots inside of the flying machines to form his own airforce !

Now for the heavy armor debate. It does not get much "heavier" then a Glitterboy. One of the default armors Archie knows how to make. Imagine having 30,000 GB's all being piloted by bots who are directly linked to the machine giving it even more deadliness

The big thing here people tend to downplay against archie, is the fact that archie does not have an airforce.

Who needs an airforce, if you put out more Samas in 1 yr, then the opposition has total military assets ?

Archie has 9 factories, back before the coming of the rifts. Since then they have all been updated, expanded upon and new factories built up in various other places.

And those are just the factories we know about ! Archie could have even more then what we know about being built !

I have yet to come across the 400k a month number some one tossed out but I have been combing all my archie related books, and if its canon I will be quoting it.

All in all I for one think even the entire north american mass production
capabilities of all other powers combined can touch archie's, let alone 1 power in the Coalition's.


After everything I have read, I understand where some people get the idea that archie is so far beyond the production of the CS in terms of bots and tech, it would not be a contest. only a matter of how long would it take for X to happen in this type of scenario.

After I have brushed up on my archie related books / articles.

PS: Can you imagine what 1 million armed War goddess's with Boom guns would do to the Coalition's military ?

Or how bout if Archie decided to place the Boom gun on a wild weasel Samas !!

holy crap !!

1 million War Goddesses would be very difficult because they are all N.I. currently, if he stepped up their production to the millions I assume they would have to be A.I.'s

[masslegion]

so you are using the absence of evidence is evidence of absence argument.

No, Sir, I am using the "If it isn't officially listed as a piece of ARCHIEs weaponry/armor, then it doesn't exist for ARCHIE" argument.

By the "logic" you're trying to push here, I guess that I get to say that the Coalition has a Demon Star at their disposal, and The Artifact, and the Cosmic Forge, because there isn't any Book that says that they don't have it.

That is an absurd argument attempting to discredit my statement through a notion of absolute absurdity. Yet, it does not strengthen your position nor weaken mine. It is not out of line to reasonably conclude ARCHIE could have more capabilities than the limited narration provides. Although we can conclude he may does not in any stretch of the word mean that he does. Hence although in the cannon there is an absence of evidence for ARCHIE having such equipment it does not mean that he does not but it not currently part of his storyline.

No the Coalition does not have a Demon Star or anything else on your list and it is ridiculous to even suggest they do or that my line of reasoning leads to this dubious end. RIFTS is constantly evolving through its storyline. If we were to look back at the first few original books from say Rifts Main Book through Atlantis, England, Traix & the NGR, Sourcebooks 1 & 2 the the CS does not have much of a classical airforce either except its skycycles and SAMAS which ARCHIE has both thanks to NEMA. Rifts cannon is not closed (although the slow release dates can make it feel this way), absolute in that it offers every possible detail, and immutable. Every time a new book is released the cannon is added to, updated (some call this RETCON),
He does have heavy Robot unit designs at his disposal both the Glitterboy and the Mastiff and Super Mastiff.

ARCHIE is the preemminent authority in North America (and perhaps Rifts Earth) in regards to Golden Age Technologies. (possible exceptions Triax, Republic of Japan, New Navy within their scope of warfare). With the revelation of the new Coalition War Machine ARCHIE was excited to see how much of the lost Golden Age tech the CS might have rediscovered.

Current Sourcebooks and Worldbooks have only revealed statistics which are currently relevant to ARCHIE's current plans, which are: defense of his rather isolated complexes, intelligence gathering throughout North America and currently on Atlantis, and now with Shemarrian Nation a more aggressive push Splugorth Minions off the East Coast. Long-term his goals are the domination and protection of mankind throughout North America and eventually the Earth. With his intimate knowledge and foremost expert outside of the CS and FQ on CS military strategies and capabilities how would he even hope to implement further plans of conquest unless he already had or was capable of developing countermeasures that would neuter these advantages?

I can't believe I got out of bed and look at the forums again. I am so displeased with myself.

[Killer Cyborg]

ARCHIE has an armed forces that pretty much consists ONLY of infantry troops; no air power, no armor, not even any artillery (unless maybe you count the swiveling shoulder projectors on the Monst-Rex).

Source: Rifts Sourcebook One (Original and Revised).

Which of the things listed in SB1 does he use to move his troops to Atlantis?

The exact means by which ARCHIE is getting these troops over to Atlantis, is AFAIK left completely open to speculation; it may involve one of his submarines that it normally uses to transport Titan Industries, and it may involve piecemeal smuggling of "humans" to the continent as slaves by (unwitting) monstrous creatures who are secretly being paid by ARCHIE.

Sounds like you're saying that Archie has resources beyond that which are listed in SB1.

[Nightmask]

Thank you for clearing that up. I have not claimed he does has these capabilities, but how do I know? There is no quote that I am aware of that says he does not have these files on hand or have these capabilities.

I don't need a "quote" to tell me what ARCHIE does or doesn't have; I have a listing of his equipment made available to me by the Author himself.

No, you just have a list of some equipment available certainly not a complete list.

[Killer Cyborg]

Which of the things listed in SB1 does he use to move his troops to Atlantis?

Are you attempting to imply that Archie does not have a way to get his bots to Atlantis, regaurdless that the canon is he has found a way to get them there enmass ?

I'm attempting to imply that Archie has capabilities beyond that which are listed in SB1.

Do try to keep up with the conversation.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Which of the things listed in SB1 does he use to move his troops to Atlantis?

Are you attempting to imply that Archie does not have a way to get his bots to Atlantis, regaurdless that the canon is he has found a way to get them there enmass ?

I'm attempting to imply that Archie has capabilities beyond that which are listed in SB1.

Do try to keep up with the conversation.

Makes you wonder what else Archie has hidden in data base, that doesn't go along with his helper line of thinking.

[Nether]

Archie was created by NEMA to do what specifically?

Where does it list a better history for him than SB1?

[Nether]

We both have different opinions to how the population would act or behave in these regards, as well as the differences in propaganda, so I will just call it with we disagree on this as no way to prove each other wrong.

[Giant2005]

How did this thread get this long? Ok Simple answer in sourcebook one it states in a fight Archie stands a better chance of winning a 1 on 1 fight. BUT if FQ gets involved (which they would) Archie has no chance. Second Archie has no self confidence and doesn't think he could win the fight. So I vote CS because Karl has the ego to think the CS can win and ARCHIE doesn't, also Archie has no allies and the CS has several member states and Free Quebec.

Why would FQ get involved? They believe the new friendship between the two nations is a CS ruse and are plenty terrified of the CS. Having someone else remove that fear for them is something that they would be very interested in.
Either way, if you are allowing outside forces like FQ to interfere on one side, then you would have to allow it on both.
If Archie attacked the CS and the country noticed he had a very real chance of winning, almost the entire country would join the battle to make sure he did.

[Giant2005]

How did this thread get this long? Ok Simple answer in sourcebook one it states in a fight Archie stands a better chance of winning a 1 on 1 fight. BUT if FQ gets involved (which they would) Archie has no chance. Second Archie has no self confidence and doesn't think he could win the fight. So I vote CS because Karl has the ego to think the CS can win and ARCHIE doesn't, also Archie has no allies and the CS has several member states and Free Quebec.

Why would FQ get involved? They believe the new friendship between the two nations is a CS ruse and are plenty terrified of the CS. Having someone else remove that fear for them is something that they would be very interested in.
Either way, if you are allowing outside forces like FQ to interfere on one side, then you would have to allow it on both.
If Archie attacked the CS and the country noticed he had a very real chance of winning, almost the entire country would join the battle to make sure he did.

This falls to simple terms of survival Why would you let a fellow human nation fall to army of robots (something that the people of FQ hate) Whats to stop them from turning on you and when they do your nearest alliance is gone. Also your reasoning is debunked by the sorceress revenge when another group that FQ didn't like came to them to stab the CS in the back and they didn't at all. Also ARCHIE has no alliances unlike the CS which again is Several city states not just Chi-town and has friends in FQ.

Firstly, FQ opted to fight Tolkeen because they hate inhumane monsters, Robots do not share that hatred.
Secondly, the CS and FQ are not "friends" Prosek is genuine in his regret for attacking them and seeks friendship but FQ don't believe a word of it. FQ offers no allegiance to the CS.
Thirdly, Archie has no allies but the CS has numerous enemies that would be all willing to see them erased from existence. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[Nether]

This falls to simple terms of survival Why would you let a fellow human
nation fall to army of robots (something that the people of FQ hate)

How would anyone know they are a nation of bots. Your using out of game knowledge
to support in game decisions.

That does not make sense.

I agree with Ninja that FQ would come to CS's aid in any war, but grudgingly so as they dont approve of the CS, hence why they would rather do their own thing instead of stay part of it.

But,

Archie is a genius, and the people running the CS or even FQ I suspect are no where near Archie's IQ. Archie specifically has creating intelligence network and Titan Industries which chances are the others will never know it is part of Archie. As for the IQ, he has a 30 IQ which to me is more than just a skill bonus, to me it means that little crazy toaster genius has the raw ability to formulate and theorize a much more accurate plan than the other two. He already has surprise, can mask a great number of his bots to look human ext. Archie I would think has got to know that FQ would prolly be alot more hesistant to react if Archie stamped NEMA on all his human looking bots in PA / RPA. If FQ thought it was NEMA attacking, I really think FQ would not assist the CS.

Then you have potential allies for taking the CS, and even opportunists looking to get a peice of the pie but not necessarily ally per say. So pecos bandits and the True Fed would prolly take the opportunity if they saw a large enough force taking on the CS to gobble up some land and resources.

Archie is a sneaky toaster, he has the smart plays that maximize his forces, and it is alot easier to coord a robot army than a human army i am thinking.

Lastly,
@Ninja, this scenario is based only on a 1vs1 situation and gives Archie first strike as well as 6 months to prep. Considering the implecations he has going already, I really just can't see how the CS would stand any chance against him in 'this' scenario. Even add potential allies to come in and I still think Archie has it in the bag.

Not to forget he has the 30k NEMA popsickle force but i am not including that in this at all.

[Nether]

first kill that a CS solider gets is going to show them it wasn't a human or living flesh and blood creature.

Well first kills won't tell you it is an entire army of robots, but your right that there is just no way for Archie to conceal that it is all bots forever, as Archie loses forces, they will come to realize that they are always robots and start to wonder huh???? lol I would.

In this scenario it doesnt really help the CS though, but if they were allowed allies eventually FQ would prolly rally to the CS, unless the Republicans joined Archie and 'maybe' Archie dethaws the NEMA popsickle army that joins him and the Republicans which to me actually sounds very viable to occur.

[Nether]

This falls to simple terms of survival Why would you let a fellow human
nation fall to army of robots (something that the people of FQ hate)

How would anyone know they are a nation of bots. Your using out of game knowledge
to support in game decisions.

That does not make sense.

I agree with Ninja that FQ would come to CS's aid in any war, but grudgingly so as they dont approve of the CS, hence why they would rather do their own thing instead of stay part of it.

But,

Archie is a genius, and the people running the CS or even FQ I suspect are no where near Archie's IQ. Archie specifically has creating intelligence network and Titan Industries which chances are the others will never know it is part of Archie. As for the IQ, he has a 30 IQ which to me is more than just a skill bonus, to me it means that little crazy toaster genius has the raw ability to formulate and theorize a much more accurate plan than the other two. He already has surprise, can mask a great number of his bots to look human ext. Archie I would think has got to know that FQ would prolly be alot more hesistant to react if Archie stamped NEMA on all his human looking bots in PA / RPA. If FQ thought it was NEMA attacking, I really think FQ would not assist the CS.

Then you have potential allies for taking the CS, and even opportunists looking to get a peice of the pie but not necessarily ally per say. So pecos bandits and the True Fed would prolly take the opportunity if they saw a large enough force taking on the CS to gobble up some land and resources.

Archie is a sneaky toaster, he has the smart plays that maximize his forces, and it is alot easier to coord a robot army than a human army i am thinking.

Lastly,
@Ninja, this scenario is based only on a 1vs1 situation and gives Archie first strike as well as 6 months to prep. Considering the implecations he has going already, I really just can't see how the CS would stand any chance against him in 'this' scenario. Even add potential allies to come in and I still think Archie has it in the bag.

Not to forget he has the 30k NEMA popsickle force but i am not including that in this at all.

There is one big reason I give it to the CS ARCHIE has a crippling self doubt, (biggest road bump in him winning) and there are folks with IQ that might be as high or close to ARCHIE level. Operation HOly house in Rifter 34 I think is canon and gives us a CS leader with an IQ of I think 23 or 25.

I absolutely agree with you that Archie is his biggest problem, he would never go to war, as he psychologically is obsessed with preparing, preparing, preparing and mass production and staying low key. I would never see him declaring war.

But this scenario 'says' that Archie is attacking the CS, and attacking first with 6 months prep. To me the only way Archie would be able to start on the offensive is if the NEMA general or the Republican CIA leader allied with Archie or merged, as they would have the psychological parts that Archie is failing horribly in.

But even without those, say the CS somehow goes to war with Archie, the books state that Archie would win the conflict and I would agree.

Now if this scenario was the CS declares war and makes first strike, well if they know where Archies factories are, he is toast as the CS war machine would just eat cornflakes out of robot sculls in the morning before Archie could react.

[Hystrix]

Given ARCHIE needs a think tank to operate

Archie is a military computer programe that gained sentience.

He has detailed files of the greatest military minds of human history, and is thee
foremost expert on Coalition military tactic's, combined with up to the nano second
battle field intel via his satalite, and can mass produce more Glitterboy's then
even Free Quebec has, not to mention technology which can knock out all Coalition
communications abilities.

And all his bots can be made into nothing less then 700+mdc, with greater damage
weapons that have further reach, this does not take into consideration if Archie
decided to hire merc's and or mages.

If he does, his forces become exponentially more powerful.

Archie has antigrav capabilities, which makes each and every single bot he creates
equal to at bere minimum a Samas, if not power powerful, especially if he equips
them with Boom guns !

Can you imagine the following.

500,000 - Shemarrian War Goddesses.

500,000 - Wild Weasel based Samas (only 700+ mdc, wielding Boom Guns)

And on top of this, Legions of Giants bots to !!

500,000 War Goddesses = Scarey!

But who pilots the 500,000 Wild Weasels?

[Killer Cyborg]

If you ignore the fact that the Coalition has trained soldiers in the
millions (this means 2,000,000 at minimal)

Wrong as was already proven by various posters, googling the term millions.
And you will see millions refures to any numeric value over 1 million. To include
the numbers 1,000,000 to 999,999,999.

So at the very minimum, millions could be 1,000,000.

I don't recall that happening.
Care to link to the posts in question, or to the original source?

[Killer Cyborg]

he does not have the ability to think up battle plans on his own

Shemarrian Nation book, page 43.
"Their military knowledge is culled from centuries of books and military leaders on
file in archie's archives. Including Hannibal, alaexander the Great, Napoleon,
George Washington, General Patton, Field marshal rommel, and a host of others."

"Culled from" does not mean "includes every part of."

Sourcebook 1 revised pg 83.
"Archie three monitored and controlled everything from temperature to lighting
from inventory to assembly line speed and more. It calculated productivity and
made changes to increase production and quality. It even maintained the enviormental
and security aspects with greater efficiency then the previous team of human
counterparts."

And here again, we see further proof that provides us with knowledge that Archie
is a very capable military stratagist, with the defense of the entire Cyberworks
facility. And this was prior to the coming of the rifts even.

No.
What we see there is proof that Archie monitored security for the base with greater efficiency than the previous team of human counterparts.
Without knowing the level of competency of the previous human team, we cannot assess Archie's level of competency.

Archie has up to the second intel on 99.6% of all of his creations.

Source?

Couple that with the fact that archie (acording to aftermath) is thee preeminint
military authority on the continent about Coalition military tactic's

Quote?

Take that into consideration, when you see 500,000 war goddess's encountered and an
air force of 500,000 Wild weasel type samas, (jamming anything downing missiles
even after they are fired forcing them off course!)

Are you coming up with those numbers for any particular reason?

[Killer Cyborg]

Can you imagine ...

I can imagine all sorts of crap.
That doesn't mean that my imagination has any bearing on the conversation at hand.

Warning: Flamebaiting.

[Nether]

Those number pale next to the stock pile of SAMAS the CS has and the fact that they have millions of troops, the ability to pump out dog boys and other animal mutants. Top that off with the fact the CS has dealt with two wars from Magic armies (one the start one was a sneak attack) and that they have dealt with tech based enemies for years. Top that off with the fact page 88 tells you ARCHIE was not made as a military strategist but a computer designed to run the base, he does not have the ability to think up battle plans on his own or even make new robots on his own.(Hench the think cap)
And AGAIN add in his crippling self doubt the first battle that goes wrong he will start to rethink his idea and most likely cost him the victory. If you ignore the fact that the Coalition has trained soldiers in the millions (this means 2,000,000 at minimal) and that they are a nation geared toward war for almost 100 years, ARCHIE still only has them in technology. The CS has many generals and officers thinking up battle strategies and the ability to adapt faster then him on the battle field.
ARCHIEs tech gives him the best chance out of anyone on the north american theater to take down the CS this isn't a granted win though and the factors I have pointed out are just some of the most obvious reasons why.
Also where do you get that he can knock out all their communications? If you are thinking EMP then you may want to read the fact that all their equipment and communications are EMP shielded. If you are going to use his little eye in space then you are stepping out side canon because it is only able to be used as a communications device according to Aftermath.
Boom guns can not be used in flight even with anti-grav which ARCHIE doesn't have he only has a hover system ability NE has anti-grav.

Bunny, Archie does have anti-grav tech amongst other much higher tech stuff. Rifter 4

the Mechanoids had already retooled a good portion of
the Cyberworks complex to produce their robot warriors. In addition,
they shared much of their knowledge of psionic powers
and interfaces, cybernetics and bionics, weapon systems, and
anti-gravity propulsion with Archie, believing him to be a kindred
spirit and trusted ally. In reality, he was secretly working
against them. Now Archie has expanded on their knowledge and
technology and incorporated it into his own. He also includes
Mechanoid designed robots as a part of his own minions.

Psionic tech.. and that could also help him conceal his robot only looking army.

If you want to compare numbers to show who has the advantage with a 6 month prep for Archie, so me what the numbers look llike on both sides? We dont really know what Archie can produce specifically in that time so you want to argue the war machine numbers vs what? The book says that the most likely outcome is Archie wins, so he has to have something comparable to feild against them.

Add that archie can have a strong borg with psionics, in PA/RPA, all with superior tech as a force. Now make up a small army of that style. The CS on the other hand has a very large force but you can only bring so many troops to bear at one time as space is taken up by large forces, then you have to move them into position and coordination ability comes in.
A superior force as described can eat a weaker but larger force very quickly. It is getting worn down that slowly chips away at them by numbers that wears them out. But with anti grav Archie could move his forces out fast enough to recover. Also bots are easy to replace in time reqs where as CS troops take alot longer to train for a inferior quality troop compared to the Archie bot.

I dont think there is really any chance of changing your mind regardless of what is said here, as you like the CS.

I didnt come into this arguement thinking oh, anyone against the CS will win no matter what, I am trying to be partial to the two groups.

I like the CS, but they treat their best str and greatest defense like crap, which is Psi-Bat. Sure they have been working to improve relations, but they are still looked down upon. Without them (Psi-Bat, dog boys) the CS becomes a joke to penetrate. If anything, these peeps (Psi-Bat) should be seen as the super humans that defend humanity of the CS and should be running the show. It wouldnt matter if they had a Karl that was a master psychic, just make him one.

[Killer Cyborg]

Killer Cyborg I know you like to play your word games, so let us google the term
"Culled", and as I google it I see this.

culled past participle, past tense of cull (Verb)
Verb:
1.Select from a large quantity; obtain from a variety of sources

Point of fact, it may not mean every part of, but for military pourposes the more
important parts are what they would know from each military genius.

Unless you wish to disput that?

I cannot possibly dispute such a vague and essentially meaningless sentence.

No.
What we see there is proof that Archie monitored security for the base with
greater efficiency than the previous team of human counterparts.
Without knowing the level of competency of the previous human team, we cannot
assess Archie's level of competency

We know it was a military secret base. We know it was military, therefore we can
logically deduce it was a military team of human counterparts, that he had taken
over for on the security of the base.Again, unless you care to dispute its not
a military compound ?

Yes, it was logically a military team of human agents of unknown competency.

quote

Shemarrian Nation, page 32.
"10. The All seeing A.R.C.H.I.E. Three:
Thanks to archie's access to a satellite, and tracking systems built into his
creation's, he knows where ALL (ok 99.6 percent) of his android warrior women
war steedsm faux monsters and other robots are at all times."

Hope this helps.

It certainly does.

Quote?

For the aftermath book I do not have it atm, the hubby took it with him on the
rigs but when he gets back I will happily quote the exact wordage.

But that does not detract from the fact that according to aftermath,
Archie is the defacto Coalition military expert.[/quote]

[Mech-Viper Prime]

somehow archie throwing super bots at the coalition is going to ended up weakening both him and coalition, to the point were their enemies have full advantage.

i guess some think archie needs to crush the coalition for some reason, which isnt the case, if archie had a proper idea man, archie could defeat the cs without a single shot or person hurt and both remain in combat effective.

[Hystrix]

But who pilots the 500,000 Wild Weasels?

No one would need to, Archie can automate them easily enough. And if he had to place
a bot in it to make appearences as they are fighting a human force he could have
a "Juicer" bot in it, to make it appear they are fighting a human force.
As Archie does in fact create "Juicer" Bots, to fake everyone out about his bots.

Can you imagine a squad of samas, running into a squad of Archie created wild
weasel's, they (samas) would all be downed, and they may down 1 or 2 of the Wild
weasel's of archie's, only to see the downed weasel's occupant get out take the
weapon from the downed weasel and start attacking again ? As they return fire, they
notice that the occupant is a mdc being !! and they in their minor MDC pilot suits
verses a 700mdc pilot of the downed wild weasel would be toast.

This is the type of pilot archie could put inside each and every wild weasel like
samas he created, and thats if he wanted to do things the hard way.

The easy way is to automate the samas, and then simply use the Targeting uplink
via his male shem and slave off suits to a master suit (husband said think squads
tied off to a squad leader via targeted data) as many as 24 per master wild weasel
like suit.

1 in control of 24 suits.

And if Archie wanted to get deceptively sly about it, he could tie those samas off
to the Avian bird's he creates, as the targeting system has a range of 50 miles,
and since he can tie off 24 wild weasel like samas to a single commander like that
and the enemy samas will not be downing anything sept what they are being attacked
by, they will not know to down that hawk flying up at 20,000ft who is really watching
the entire battle squad verses squad. And telling each samas where to go, and how to
counter the other samas.

All in all I personally after going over most of the archie stuff, am completely
amazed at some of the stuff the lil felle has.

Yeah. Archie has some cool stuff. I suppose he could automate them himself. His "style", however, seems to be building Bots like the Shemerrian, or the A-63. Not saying he couldn't do what you are saying. I'm just saying he likely would not.

...Now as for the Shemerrian War Goddess...

Personally I love the Shemerrian Berserker. Give me 500,000 of those bad boys...er...girls...

[Nether]

Those number pale next to the stock pile of SAMAS the CS has and the fact that they have millions of troops, the ability to pump out dog boys and other animal mutants. Top that off with the fact the CS has dealt with two wars from Magic armies (one the start one was a sneak attack) and that they have dealt with tech based enemies for years. Top that off with the fact page 88 tells you ARCHIE was not made as a military strategist but a computer designed to run the base, he does not have the ability to think up battle plans on his own or even make new robots on his own.(Hench the think cap)
And AGAIN add in his crippling self doubt the first battle that goes wrong he will start to rethink his idea and most likely cost him the victory. If you ignore the fact that the Coalition has trained soldiers in the millions (this means 2,000,000 at minimal) and that they are a nation geared toward war for almost 100 years, ARCHIE still only has them in technology. The CS has many generals and officers thinking up battle strategies and the ability to adapt faster then him on the battle field.
ARCHIEs tech gives him the best chance out of anyone on the north american theater to take down the CS this isn't a granted win though and the factors I have pointed out are just some of the most obvious reasons why.
Also where do you get that he can knock out all their communications? If you are thinking EMP then you may want to read the fact that all their equipment and communications are EMP shielded. If you are going to use his little eye in space then you are stepping out side canon because it is only able to be used as a communications device according to Aftermath.
Boom guns can not be used in flight even with anti-grav which ARCHIE doesn't have he only has a hover system ability NE has anti-grav.

Bunny, Archie does have anti-grav tech amongst other much higher tech stuff. Rifter 4

the Mechanoids had already retooled a good portion of
the Cyberworks complex to produce their robot warriors. In addition,
they shared much of their knowledge of psionic powers
and interfaces, cybernetics and bionics, weapon systems, and
anti-gravity propulsion with Archie, believing him to be a kindred
spirit and trusted ally. In reality, he was secretly working
against them. Now Archie has expanded on their knowledge and
technology and incorporated it into his own. He also includes
Mechanoid designed robots as a part of his own minions.

Psionic tech.. and that could also help him conceal his robot only looking army.

If you want to compare numbers to show who has the advantage with a 6 month prep for Archie, so me what the numbers look llike on both sides? We dont really know what Archie can produce specifically in that time so you want to argue the war machine numbers vs what? The book says that the most likely outcome is Archie wins, so he has to have something comparable to feild against them.

Add that archie can have a strong borg with psionics, in PA/RPA, all with superior tech as a force. Now make up a small army of that style. The CS on the other hand has a very large force but you can only bring so many troops to bear at one time as space is taken up by large forces, then you have to move them into position and coordination ability comes in.
A superior force as described can eat a weaker but larger force very quickly. It is getting worn down that slowly chips away at them by numbers that wears them out. But with anti grav Archie could move his forces out fast enough to recover. Also bots are easy to replace in time reqs where as CS troops take alot longer to train for a inferior quality troop compared to the Archie bot.

I dont think there is really any chance of changing your mind regardless of what is said here, as you like the CS.

I didnt come into this arguement thinking oh, anyone against the CS will win no matter what, I am trying to be partial to the two groups.

I like the CS, but they treat their best str and greatest defense like crap, which is Psi-Bat. Sure they have been working to improve relations, but they are still looked down upon. Without them (Psi-Bat, dog boys) the CS becomes a joke to penetrate. If anything, these peeps (Psi-Bat) should be seen as the super humans that defend humanity of the CS and should be running the show. It wouldnt matter if they had a Karl that was a master psychic, just make him one.

I don't have rifter 4 and can only operate on what books I have with the reprinted information I have at hand as sourcebook one only gives me hover tech not anti-grav so I was operating on what I know.

Thats fine as most of us dont have All the books.

Does any of that info change your opinion in the scenario?

[Nether]

somehow archie throwing super bots at the coalition is going to ended up weakening both him and coalition, to the point were their enemies have full advantage.

i guess some think archie needs to crush the coalition for some reason, which isnt the case, if archie had a proper idea man, archie could defeat the cs without a single shot or person hurt and both remain in combat effective.

Well i would like to hear some ideas you have that you think would succeed in that department, as people on these boards have been coming up with all kinds of plans that just inevitably got shot down because the CS is invincible in some minds.

I think dogboys are great but i am also thinking they arent as effective as many make them out to be.

You could have the 'detect god' ability on many of your people, but if a god shows up and your radar goes off saying god is here somewhere in that direction, it also wont change that he will just trounce thru your forces regardless if you know where he is. (not saying mages or other SN are gods btw, just example)

[Mech-Viper Prime]

somehow archie throwing super bots at the coalition is going to ended up
weakening both him and coalition, to the point were their enemies have
full advantage.

Source ?

i guess some think archie needs to crush the coalition for some reason,
which isnt the case

Yes it is, if Archie wants to rule the world he has to start with North America.
And in so doing, by default, he has to take out the Coalition. They are at the
moment his only real opposition on any true level of the word in north america.

And mech, can you imagine the teaming of Archie and say, perhaps General Cabot ?
The teaming of that duo would be impressive!

no he doesn't have to "take out the coalition" he just needs to gain control of it,which means its a longer timeline plan vs throwing robots at the coalition which could blow Archie cover and cause CS special forces to start searching the east coast and they start looking at the numbers of shemarrians they will notice the large number in the Maryland area, and if the republican see a chance to take down Archie they just might point the CS to his location, and then try to double cross the soldier once Archie is under their control.

[Nether]

somehow archie throwing super bots at the coalition is going to ended up
weakening both him and coalition, to the point were their enemies have
full advantage.

Source ?

i guess some think archie needs to crush the coalition for some reason,
which isnt the case

Yes it is, if Archie wants to rule the world he has to start with North America.
And in so doing, by default, he has to take out the Coalition. They are at the
moment his only real opposition on any true level of the word in north america.

And mech, can you imagine the teaming of Archie and say, perhaps General Cabot ?
The teaming of that duo would be impressive!

no he doesn't have to "take out the coalition" he just needs to gain control of it,which means its a longer timeline plan vs throwing robots at the coalition which could blow Archie cover and cause CS special forces to start searching the east coast and they start looking at the numbers of shemarrians they will notice the large number in the Maryland area, and if the republican see a chance to take down Archie they just might point the CS to his location, and then try to double cross the soldier once Archie is under their control.

In order for the CS to 'join' any other nation (NEMA /w Archie, Republicans, NN come to mind as the most plausible group that they would consider) I am thnking the Proseks and direct consul would have to be killed or exiled at the least in order for that to work.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

no he doesn't have to "take out the coalition" he just needs to gain
control of it,which means its a longer timeline plan vs throwing robots
at the coalition

That could be 1 way. And archie does love to bid his time. Tho for this scenario
thats not how its done.

if the republican see a chance to take down Archie they just might point the
CS to his location

This would never happen. as they want Archie's production capabilities for
themselves, failing that they want it destroyed.

Showing the CS where it is would accomplish neither of those. And in fact only
serve to strengthen a known enemy in the Coalition's hiarchy.

So no way does for any reason the Republican's (who have a plan already to take
out the entire leadership of the Coalition) show the Coalition where Archie is.

Then Archie loses in long run.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

somehow archie throwing super bots at the coalition is going to ended up
weakening both him and coalition, to the point were their enemies have
full advantage.

Source ?

i guess some think archie needs to crush the coalition for some reason,
which isnt the case

Yes it is, if Archie wants to rule the world he has to start with North America.
And in so doing, by default, he has to take out the Coalition. They are at the
moment his only real opposition on any true level of the word in north america.

And mech, can you imagine the teaming of Archie and say, perhaps General Cabot ?
The teaming of that duo would be impressive!

no he doesn't have to "take out the coalition" he just needs to gain control of it,which means its a longer timeline plan vs throwing robots at the coalition which could blow Archie cover and cause CS special forces to start searching the east coast and they start looking at the numbers of shemarrians they will notice the large number in the Maryland area, and if the republican see a chance to take down Archie they just might point the CS to his location, and then try to double cross the soldier once Archie is under their control.

In order for the CS to 'join' any other nation (NEMA /w Archie, Republicans, NN come to mind as the most plausible group that they would consider) I am thnking the Proseks and direct consul would have to be killed or exiled at the least in order for that to work.

No really they just need to know there is no choice and its better for all parties to continue down this path where the coalition is more enhanced by Archie then without because if need be he will remove them for the situation for this the happened.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Then Archie loses in long run.

But not before the Coalition had been shattered.

For that to happen he needs to crush all four states something Archie will not be able to do, taking down chi-town city is one thing and taking out the entire coalition states is another

[Nether]

Then Archie loses in long run.

But not before the Coalition had been shattered.

For that to happen he needs to crush all four states something Archie will not be able to do, taking down chi-town city is one thing and taking out the entire coalition states is another

Ya the books actually state that Archie is most likely to win a war against the CS if it ever happened. And that would mean the CS, not an individual state of the CS.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Then Archie loses in long run.

But not before the Coalition had been shattered.

For that to happen he needs to crush all four states something Archie will not be able to do, taking down chi-town city is one thing and taking out the entire coalition states is another

Ya the books actually state that Archie is most likely to win a war against the CS if it ever happened. And that would mean the CS, not an individual state of the CS.

Source?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

For that to happen he needs to crush all four states something Archie will not be able to do, taking down chi-town city is one thing and taking out the entire coalition states is another

Canonly speaking it is a war, Archie is more then likely to win. This is canon.

But this thread isn't canon, and it stop being canon when you allowed Archie a 6 month build up.

[Nether]

Then Archie loses in long run.

But not before the Coalition had been shattered.

For that to happen he needs to crush all four states something Archie will not be able to do, taking down chi-town city is one thing and taking out the entire coalition states is another

Ya the books actually state that Archie is most likely to win a war against the CS if it ever happened. And that would mean the CS, not an individual state of the CS.

Source?

Mech my friend, dont be lazy and look up as it has been posted already in this thread, maybe even twice already. It says that the Archie would most likely win a battle with the CS. This is said without this threads scenario, so if Archie has this threads scenario of First Strike and 6 months of prep I really cant see how that would move that canon quote from probably to certain.

I remember it was revised SB1. Then add on top that Archie production ability beats the CS any day of the weak. Again from canon and listed above for quote.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Ya the books actually state that Archie is most likely to win a war against the CS if it ever happened. And that would mean the CS, not an individual state of the CS.

Source?

Happy to ablige.

Source book One, Revised, pg 8.
And I quote .

"Taking down Free Quebec or the Coalition States would be a battle, but it is probably one the self proclaimed machine god would win"

This right here, clearly show's laws of probability of any war between Archie and the CS would favor archie. Which mean's Archie would probably be victorious in a war.

But what tactics would he use that go along with his m.o.?

[Nether]

Ya the books actually state that Archie is most likely to win a war against the CS if it ever happened. And that would mean the CS, not an individual state of the CS.

Source?

Happy to ablige.

Source book One, Revised, pg 8.
And I quote .

"Taking down Free Quebec or the Coalition States would be a battle, but it is probably one the self proclaimed machine god would win"

This right here, clearly show's laws of probability of any war between Archie and the CS would favor archie. Which mean's Archie would probably be victorious in a war.

But what tactics would he use that go along with his m.o.?

Well Archie's m.o. is he is a psychological defender (fortify, prepare), and he prolly would never start the war. So to me that means the CS would find out about the Shermanian nation and go after that, igniting the powder keg of a much grander war.

Once Archie is in war, I would think he operates just fine then, with preference to defensive posturing, and saving resources / facilities. Even with that said, he would still 'probably' win according to canon.

Mech, you ever play a RTS where you just had a big fight with your army and you won, but then you have to decide do you push ahead to capitalize on the enemy loss and possibly causing them a major blow / possible defeat with your injured troops that you will lose most of or do you hold your gained ground and repair/resupply so your ready for the next onslaught better prepared?

The first is someone playing on the offense and aggressive, and they win wars quicker usually. The second is the defender mentality and wars usually take alot longer as they only move when they know they have everything ready/repaired/supplied. Archie would be the second one, the CS the first one.

But Archie is known for being clever, so I would think he would make full use of subterfuge (heck even many of his bots do this already posing as human hotties), he could impersonate NEMA as he can also make all their stuff, he has psychic robots, robots in PA/RPA that he could make a truly small powerful forces that make the CS always trying to maneuver to get to him which allows him to always control the battlefield, defender style like. He has Titan Robotics which is a fair size and growing, which he could try to use to "support" the CS so he always has the inside with them. Archie also has infiltrated skelebots at all levels which are undetected, and could give the CS some strong concerns about using them against well, a robot godlike being, it would make sense he might be able to take them over in the CS mind. Archie also has satelite communication and always knows where his troops are, how many ext, so superior coordination.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

True but more and more Archie tries the more likely someone will catch on to his games page 77 of rifts aftermath