Holes in the Rules

[Bill]

It was just pointed out in another thread that there don't appear to be any rules for drowning or suffocation. What other rules have you found to be completely absent or very difficult to find? What fixes are you using?

If there is another thread on this topic, please provide me a link. I am interested in reading it.

[Severus Snape]

Well, the rules state that you can hold your breath for a period of time equal to a calculation based on your PE, but the exact calculation escapes me. I think it's 1/4 or 1/5 of your PE in minutes, but I'll have to look that up.

As far as to what happens when your time expires: I use a flat 1 HP in damage for every melee round that elapses after your time is up. You hit 0 HP before you can get air and you're dead.

[Bill]

Well, the rules state that you can hold your breath for a period of time equal to a calculation based on your PE, but the exact calculation escapes me. I think it's 1/4 or 1/5 of your PE in minutes, but I'll have to look that up.

As far as to what happens when your time expires: I use a flat 1 HP in damage for every melee round that elapses after your time is up. You hit 0 HP before you can get air and you're dead.

Where?

[Damian Magecraft]

It was just pointed out in another thread that there don't appear to be any rules for drowning or suffocation. What other rules have you found to be completely absent or very difficult to find? What fixes are you using?

If there is another thread on this topic, please provide me a link. I am interested in reading it.

I would have sworn there were rules for drowning in Rifts:Undersea

[Cinos]

Well, the rules state that you can hold your breath for a period of time equal to a calculation based on your PE, but the exact calculation escapes me. I think it's 1/4 or 1/5 of your PE in minutes, but I'll have to look that up.

As far as to what happens when your time expires: I use a flat 1 HP in damage for every melee round that elapses after your time is up. You hit 0 HP before you can get air and you're dead.

Are yous assuming the person is coma / inactive when their time expires? Because otherwise you're assuming a typical person can hold their breath for about 5 minutes (albit with damage).

[Bill]

It was just pointed out in another thread that there don't appear to be any rules for drowning or suffocation. What other rules have you found to be completely absent or very difficult to find? What fixes are you using?

If there is another thread on this topic, please provide me a link. I am interested in reading it.

I would have sworn there were rules for drowning in Rifts:Undersea

I went through WB7 this morning. It spends some time on the bends, but I didn't see anything on drowning.

[jaymz]

Maybe in Advnetures on teh high seas?

[tuvermage]

I would check the space books. I don't have my books with me, but I know there's dozen of books with space campaigns and drowning and suffocation work the same.

if not. most people can hold their breath for about a minute before they start to get uncomfortable. at that point skills would be -20% rolls - 2 after another minute full panic usually sets in. -50% and -6 on rolls. after 2 minutes without new air most people will pass out. at 5 minutes brain damage will happen and 7 minutes most are beyond saving.

Cold temp increase how long someone can hold their breath, as does keeping calm. I know some people can free dive and hold their breath for 10 minutes. that is an extreme and they spend years getting to that point. Growing up with a pool I used to be able to sit at the bottom of the pool for at least 3 minutes comfortable, but I also practiced all the time. now I would be lucky to be able to get past a minute without my lungs screaming in pain. It should also be noted the more active someone is the faster they use the air they have and most people when facing drowning and suffocation panic and waste most of their air.

This is where the Breathe without air spell comes in handy.

[Severus Snape]

Ok, so I did some digging and I did find a suffocation rule in AUGG, page 213. Granted, this only takes into account suffocating in space and does not allow for holding one's breath, but the same rules should apply when the air supply is depleted:

Without a breathable atmosphere/air supply the character will suffocate. Once the atmosphere is gone, characters have four melee rounds (one minute) to do something, before they black out.

Forget holding one's breath, since the vacuum won't allow it. As soon as an atmospheric pressure is gone, the air in one's lungs exhales with one great rush that cannot be stopped. Each melee beyond the first four requires a save vs. lethal poison and each save is made at a cumulative -2 to save. If the first such save is successful the character remains conscious, but loses all of his SDC. Each subsequent round that a save is made, reduce the character's Hit Points by 10%; when they reach zero, he is unconscious, regardless of saving throws.

If at any point, the attempt to save fails, the character blacks out, and Hit Points are reduced to zero. At the end of the round in which a character blacks out, he will die if not returned to an atmosphere and given prompt medical attention.

I looked in Adventure on the High Seas, RUE, and Atlantis, and cannot find anything regarding how long one can hold their breath.

[Zamion138]

High sea had something but it was in the section advising you not to wear heavy armor on a ship....dont have the book on me but it was not 5 minutes if I rember right.

[Bill]

...a person will start to lose consciousness from lack of oxygen within six melee rounds (roll versus P.E. for every subsequent melee round).

I'm really not sold on either of these. Combined they kind of work, though a person that survives suffocating is pretty bad off under them; I haven't seen any special recovery rules yet. I'm not an expert on drowning, but it seems like while it can mess a person up really badly, it doesn't have to. These also don't address whether supernatural physical endurance would benefit a character.

[Bill]

This is the fix I'm planning to use, if it ever comes up.

The period that a character may hold its breath without significant effort is equal to its Physical Endurance in actions. A character not performing any actions may effectively hold its breath up to its PE in melee rounds.

Beyond this point the player must roll percentile to avoid the character blacking out with a base chance of 1-50%, +10% per two actions (or melee round doing nothing). Apply any bonus that the character has versus Coma/Death to the die roll. Once the character has blacked out, roll versus Coma/Death (1-20%) every round until the character dies or is resuscitated; failure indicates that the character has died.

Resuscitating a drowned or suffocating character requires a First Aid or related medical skill check. Apply a -5% penalty to the check for every round that the character has been unconscious. After the successful resuscitation check, the player of a drowned character must still make two successful saves versus Coma/Death per the table on page 355 of Rifts Ultimate Edition. Failing to succeed on two checks indicates that the character has lapsed into a coma from complications related to drowning/suffocation such as water in the lungs, a collapsed trachea or other life-threatening problem. Characters that survive drowning will feel weakened and may be vulnerable to pneumonia and other diseases; temporarily reduce the character's PS and PE by 1d6 each. The character recovers both PS and PE at a rate of 1 per week without hospitalization and 1 per day if he or she is receiving treatment at a hospital or other medical facility.

Characters with supernatural endurance multiply their PE by 10 for purposes of calculating how long they may hold their breath. Characters with superhuman levels of endurance are very unlikely to drown.

Your opinions? What other rules seem to be non-existent or very difficult to track down?

[Damian Magecraft]

Ok, so I did some digging and I did find a suffocation rule in AUGG, page 213. Granted, this only takes into account suffocating in space and does not allow for holding one's breath, but the same rules should apply when the air supply is depleted:

Without a breathable atmosphere/air supply the character will suffocate. Once the atmosphere is gone, characters have four melee rounds (one minute) to do something, before they black out.

Forget holding one's breath, since the vacuum won't allow it. As soon as an atmospheric pressure is gone, the air in one's lungs exhales with one great rush that cannot be stopped. Each melee beyond the first four requires a save vs. lethal poison and each save is made at a cumulative -2 to save. If the first such save is successful the character remains conscious, but loses all of his SDC. Each subsequent round that a save is made, reduce the character's Hit Points by 10%; when they reach zero, he is unconscious, regardless of saving throws.

If at any point, the attempt to save fails, the character blacks out, and Hit Points are reduced to zero. At the end of the round in which a character blacks out, he will die if not returned to an atmosphere and given prompt medical attention.

I looked in Adventure on the High Seas, RUE, and Atlantis, and cannot find anything regarding how long one can hold their breath.

HU2:GMG I believe...

[SpiritInterface]

Suffocation, Drowning, or Strangling a person all take so long as to to be non-combats events. The skill Swimming and Scuba have the rules for drowning(RUE page 317).

[Bill]

"Three failed swim rolls in a row means the character slips underwater and will drown unless rescued," seems unsatisfyingly simple. I guess it'll do though.

[Grug]

Here is the rule that I use.

A character can hold their breath for 5 seconds per P.E. point. If they have the swimming skill they can hold their breath for 8 seconds per P.E. point. Characters with supernatural P.E. can hold their breath for 30 seconds per P.E. point. This is how long they can hold it without a problem.

Once a character has surpassed the max time they can hold there breath comfortably, They take 2 points of Hit Point damage for every 10 seconds they are still holding there breath. And must roll a D20 under their P.E. score or pass out, with a -1 penalty for every 10 seconds past there max time.

Example: Grug who has a P.E. of 15 can hold his breath for 75 seconds comfortably, he has been forced to stay under 10 seconds pass his 75 second threshold. So he takes 2 damage to his Hit Points and needs to roll a 14 or lower on a D20 because of the -1 penalty.

[Reagren Wright]

I've seen so many rule changes over the years with different books I'm not sure which to follow
any more.

[Damian Magecraft]

I've seen so many rule changes over the years with different books I'm not sure which to follow
any more.

I have kit bashed a "unified" rules set I use in all pally games I run.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well, the rules state that you can hold your breath for a period of time equal to a calculation based on your PE, but the exact calculation escapes me. I think it's 1/4 or 1/5 of your PE in minutes, but I'll have to look that up.

As far as to what happens when your time expires: I use a flat 1 HP in damage for every melee round that elapses after your time is up. You hit 0 HP before you can get air and you're dead.

That would make the average person able to breathe water for 2.5 minutes.

[Severus Snape]

Well, the rules state that you can hold your breath for a period of time equal to a calculation based on your PE, but the exact calculation escapes me. I think it's 1/4 or 1/5 of your PE in minutes, but I'll have to look that up.

As far as to what happens when your time expires: I use a flat 1 HP in damage for every melee round that elapses after your time is up. You hit 0 HP before you can get air and you're dead.

That would make the average person able to breathe water for 2.5 minutes.

Any normal person that can breathe water would be a super-hero as far as I am concerned considering normal people don't breathe water.

Seriously, you are correct. I thought I remembered seeing something regarding holding one's breath, but I don't think anymore that it was for PB. I'm thinking the average person could hold their breath for something like 4-5 seconds for every point of PE. Comfortably. This means that with a PE of 10, you'd be able to hold your breath comfortably for about 40-50 seconds before you need to "come up for air", so to speak.

Anyhow, that sounds good to me.

[Myrrhibis]

Seriously, you are correct. I thought I remembered seeing something regarding holding one's breath, but I don't think anymore that it was for PB. I'm thinking the average person could hold their breath for something like 4-5 seconds for every point of PE. Comfortably. This means that with a PE of 10, you'd be able to hold your breath comfortably for about 40-50 seconds before you need to "come up for air", so to speak.

Anyhow, that sounds good to me.

Works for me. And Sprntl PE could equal 10sec/PEpt. If you take swimming w/ normal PE same. (PE 20 = 200sec = over 3min)

I like it.

[Grug]

I guess making my house rule of 5 seconds per P.E. point was a good guess. We should just send it to Palladium and ask them to make it the official rule!

[Tadrith]

Dead Reign Source book 2:Dark places pg 57 has some notes on drowning, basically just some real world stats on how long you can hold your breath as well rules for resuscitation.

As I understand it I can't post them on the forum right?

[Damian Magecraft]

Dead Reign Source book 2:Dark places pg 57 has some notes on drowning, basically just some real world stats on how long you can hold your breath as well rules for resuscitation.

As I understand it I can't post them on the forum right?

as long as its not massive chunks of text (IE: no full page verbatim quotes) its pretty much ok.
If that makes you uncomfortable you could just paraphrase and post the basic gist of the text.

[The Dark Elf]

Make him buy the book

[The Beast]

Suffocation, Drowning, or Strangling a person all take so long as to to be non-combats events. The skill Swimming and Scuba have the rules for drowning(RUE page 317).

Strangling damage goes straight to hit points, IIRC. I'll have to look for it.

EDIT: It's from N&S, page 127, second paragraph under the Choke bullet.

[flatline]

I've seen so many rule changes over the years with different books I'm not sure which to follow
any more.

I have kit bashed a "unified" rules set I use in all pally games I run.

I don't know what it means, but "kit bashed" has got to be the funniest term I've seen in a while.

Thanks for the chuckle

--flatline

[The Beast]

I've seen so many rule changes over the years with different books I'm not sure which to follow
any more.

I have kit bashed a "unified" rules set I use in all pally games I run.

I don't know what it means, but "kit bashed" has got to be the funniest term I've seen in a while.

Thanks for the chuckle

--flatline

It's basically taking a bunch of different models (cars, trains, ships, etc) and using bits of each of them to make something completely different.

[Tadrith]

Ok then, what it says is most normal people can comfortably hold their breath underwater for about 60 secs with trained people (I.E. Navy Seals or Olympic Divers) can go up to 7 min. Dmg is not too clear but it dose mention 5d6 dmg when getting caught in a flash flood so I would say 2/3d6 in calm water per round. Resuscitation is base 20% if you don't have first aid or some sort of MD, otherwise use the skill. There is a -10% after 5 min which doubles every 5 min to a -80% at 20-30 min after that your dead. Triple those times if the water is icy cold.

Hope that helps. You should look at buying Dead Reign though. I quite enjoy it both as a source-book for my other games as well as a world in and of it self. Currently I'm running a group of Fantasy chars (A Paladin, a Long-bowmen and a Rouge) thru Dead Reign.

[Adventus]

The rules for suffocation are in Heroes Unlimited under the APS: ICE power. One of the things you can do with it is encase someones head, causing them to suffocate.. The rules are on page 245, on the right near the bottom.

[Shorty Lickens]

I prefer to think of Palladium as "open" rather than "full of holes".

[glitterboy2098]

It was just pointed out in another thread that there don't appear to be any rules for drowning or suffocation. What other rules have you found to be completely absent or very difficult to find? What fixes are you using?

If there is another thread on this topic, please provide me a link. I am interested in reading it.

rifter #17. page 16. three approaches given.

real life: typical person can hold it for 90-120 seconds. exceptional individuals (ex. navy seals) 180-240 seconds.

Kevin S.: two minutes unless a character has exceptional Physical endurance (PE score of 19+), at which point the char gains an extra melee (15 seconds) per point over 19.

rodney stott and Shawn Merrow: PE attribute in melee rounds, before having to make a saving throw against going unconcious each round over that.

[Colt47]

The problem with the current published material is that they don't have all the rules for the system in one basket. Often people have to go looking through multiple books to find certain situational rules instead of having them all in one organized place. It's one reason the system is considered to be unwieldy.

[jaymz]

Often people have to go looking through multiple books to find certain situational rules instead of having them all in one organized place.

Or even multiple games....

[Shorty Lickens]

The problem with the current published material is that they don't have all the rules for the system in one basket. Often people have to go looking through multiple books to find certain situational rules instead of having them all in one organized place. It's one reason the system is considered to be unwieldy.

I miss the rules cyclopedia.