Extraordinary Physical Strength vs. Superhuman Strength

[MikeM]

First off, I played a lot of HU back in the day, but it was all revised. I never really got to play 2nd edition. So I got the twitch to run some Heroes Unlimited and started reading second edition. I was reading the section on strength when I realised that extraordinary PS and superhuman strength are both minor powers. Now obviously if you have a concept you want to stick with, that's one thing it other than that, why would anyone take extraordinary PS?

[Senator Cybus]

Possible reasons:

1) As you said, you have a concept you want to stick to.

2) You have a G.M. who rigidly enforces random rolling for powers, and you were unlucky.

3) H.U. really needs a third level of powers between minor and major. Median powers? Medium, Midway, Middle powers?

[Stone Gargoyle]

If you random roll, they might not have a choice. Still, most players want the most for their characters, so Superhuman PS is the obviously more powerful of the two, and that is what they'll generally take given a choice of strength.

[MikeM]

I personally never make people roll, but I do want them to have a concept and stick with it.
I just can't imagine anyone selecting extraordinary physical strength over superhuman strength. In fact, I don't even know why the extraordinary physical strength power is even listed. Should just have the one power superhuman strength.

[Nightmask]

I personally never make people roll, but I do want them to have a concept and stick with it.
I just can't imagine anyone selecting extraordinary physical strength over superhuman strength. In fact, I don't even know why the extraordinary physical strength power is even listed. Should just have the one power superhuman strength.

Then you haven't read the responses about the issue as well as what's said in the Heroes Unlimited Books regarding the issue, namely that not everyone wants superhuman strength and are fine with Extraordinary PS. You may want all the physical strength and power possible but not everyone thinks as you do, some are fine being stronger but not massively stronger than everyone else. It's the difference between the guy who's fine with Captain America's level of strength compared to Spider-man's.

[MikeM]

I personally never make people roll, but I do want them to have a concept and stick with it.
I just can't imagine anyone selecting extraordinary physical strength over superhuman strength. In fact, I don't even know why the extraordinary physical strength power is even listed. Should just have the one power superhuman strength.

Then you haven't read the responses about the issue as well as what's said in the Heroes Unlimited Books regarding the issue, namely that not everyone wants superhuman strength and are fine with Extraordinary PS. You may want all the physical strength and power possible but not everyone thinks as you do, some are fine being stronger but not massively stronger than everyone else. It's the difference between the guy who's fine with Captain America's level of strength compared to Spider-man's.

Well, yeah, I have read the responses. And I don't know a single person who would take extraordinary ps when they can have superhuman strength as they are both minor powers.

[Nightmask]

I personally never make people roll, but I do want them to have a concept and stick with it.
I just can't imagine anyone selecting extraordinary physical strength over superhuman strength. In fact, I don't even know why the extraordinary physical strength power is even listed. Should just have the one power superhuman strength.

Then you haven't read the responses about the issue as well as what's said in the Heroes Unlimited Books regarding the issue, namely that not everyone wants superhuman strength and are fine with Extraordinary PS. You may want all the physical strength and power possible but not everyone thinks as you do, some are fine being stronger but not massively stronger than everyone else. It's the difference between the guy who's fine with Captain America's level of strength compared to Spider-man's.

Well, yeah, I have read the responses. And I don't know a single person who would take extraordinary ps when they can have superhuman strength as they are both minor powers.

I'm one of those people, so chalk yourself up a mark on that side of the ledger. I'm not one to pick a power because 'well gee I got to have the most powerful version available', and Extraordinary PS is good enough.

[MikeM]

I personally never make people roll, but I do want them to have a concept and stick with it.
I just can't imagine anyone selecting extraordinary physical strength over superhuman strength. In fact, I don't even know why the extraordinary physical strength power is even listed. Should just have the one power superhuman strength.

Then you haven't read the responses about the issue as well as what's said in the Heroes Unlimited Books regarding the issue, namely that not everyone wants superhuman strength and are fine with Extraordinary PS. You may want all the physical strength and power possible but not everyone thinks as you do, some are fine being stronger but not massively stronger than everyone else. It's the difference between the guy who's fine with Captain America's level of strength compared to Spider-man's.

Well, yeah, I have read the responses. And I don't know a single person who would take extraordinary ps when they can have superhuman strength as they are both minor powers.

I'm one of those people, so chalk yourself up a mark on that side of the ledger. I'm not one to pick a power because 'well gee I got to have the most powerful version available', and Extraordinary PS is good enough.

That's cool. Maybe I'm just over thinking it.

[Stone Gargoyle]

It also helps when writing up NPCs if they have variety and I feel, as a GM, if I am creating different characters rather than cloning the same ones over and over. There is a whole topic thread devoted to New Powers, some of which even add MORE options for differing strength levels. It breaks up the monotony and sameness/lameness.

[Nightmask]

It also helps when writing up NPCs if they have variety and I feel, as a GM, if I am creating different characters rather than cloning the same ones over and over. There is a whole topic thread devoted to New Powers, some of which even add MORE options for differing strength levels. It breaks up the monotony and sameness/lameness.

Really easy to do even in games with a wide variety of features after you've played them long enough. Variety for a long-timer in a game is an extremely valuable commodity. While some don't mind playing 'The Fighter' over and over again others definitely need the range to feel like instead of always facing Spider-Man sometimes they're facing Punisher and others Juggernaut.

[Stone Gargoyle]

It also helps when writing up NPCs if they have variety and I feel, as a GM, if I am creating different characters rather than cloning the same ones over and over. There is a whole topic thread devoted to New Powers, some of which even add MORE options for differing strength levels. It breaks up the monotony and sameness/lameness.

Really easy to do even in games with a wide variety of features after you've played them long enough. Variety for a long-timer in a game is an extremely valuable commodity. While some don't mind playing 'The Fighter' over and over again others definitely need the range to feel like instead of always facing Spider-Man sometimes they're facing Punisher and others Juggernaut.

I just find it hard to play characters with the same stats for stuff over and over. It doesn't make sense that every speedster will run exactly the same speeds as another or fly at the same speeds. Why should they all have the same strength levels?

[Nightmask]

It also helps when writing up NPCs if they have variety and I feel, as a GM, if I am creating different characters rather than cloning the same ones over and over. There is a whole topic thread devoted to New Powers, some of which even add MORE options for differing strength levels. It breaks up the monotony and sameness/lameness.

Really easy to do even in games with a wide variety of features after you've played them long enough. Variety for a long-timer in a game is an extremely valuable commodity. While some don't mind playing 'The Fighter' over and over again others definitely need the range to feel like instead of always facing Spider-Man sometimes they're facing Punisher and others Juggernaut.

I just find it hard to play characters with the same stats for stuff over and over. It doesn't make sense that every speedster will run exactly the same speeds as another or fly at the same speeds. Why should they all have the same strength levels?

Well strength at least has a wide range of possible rolls+bonuses, I agree that it's nice when other things like flight have a wider range available but only so much you can fit into a single RPG.

[Stone Gargoyle]

It also helps when writing up NPCs if they have variety and I feel, as a GM, if I am creating different characters rather than cloning the same ones over and over. There is a whole topic thread devoted to New Powers, some of which even add MORE options for differing strength levels. It breaks up the monotony and sameness/lameness.

Really easy to do even in games with a wide variety of features after you've played them long enough. Variety for a long-timer in a game is an extremely valuable commodity. While some don't mind playing 'The Fighter' over and over again others definitely need the range to feel like instead of always facing Spider-Man sometimes they're facing Punisher and others Juggernaut.

I just find it hard to play characters with the same stats for stuff over and over. It doesn't make sense that every speedster will run exactly the same speeds as another or fly at the same speeds. Why should they all have the same strength levels?

Well strength at least has a wide range of possible rolls+bonuses, I agree that it's nice when other things like flight have a wider range available but only so much you can fit into a single RPG.

Obviously, but I am merely pointing out the benefit of increased options as opposed to less.

[flatline]

I always thought having minor and major categories was a bad way of doing it.

Each character should get some number of points that they can spend however they want.

Each power should list what it can do based on the number of points invested in it.

--flatline

[Damian Magecraft]

I always thought having minor and major categories was a bad way of doing it.

Each character should get some number of points that they can spend however they want.

Each power should list what it can do based on the number of points invested in it.

--flatline

I never did like systems like that...
All too often the "costs" for powers got prohibitive quickly or the power levels reached the ridiculous too quickly or both.
"stepped" powers is a nice idea in theory however.
Its just that all too often the execution is lacking.

[flatline]

I always thought having minor and major categories was a bad way of doing it.

Each character should get some number of points that they can spend however they want.

Each power should list what it can do based on the number of points invested in it.

--flatline

I never did like systems like that...
All too often the "costs" for powers got prohibitive quickly or the power levels reached the ridiculous too quickly or both.
"stepped" powers is a nice idea in theory however.
Its just that all too often the execution is lacking.

If power increases linearly (think Champions or GURPS), you eventually stop investing points because of diminishing returns. If power increases exponentially (think White Wolf's system 15 years ago (I have no idea if they still use the d10 system)), then you specialize until you've maxed out the power and then you start developing another power.

Both approaches have their place depending on the type of game you want.

--flatline

[Stone Gargoyle]

I don't really care for point systems personally. But that's just me.

[flatline]

I don't really care for point systems personally. But that's just me.

It's not an all or nothing kind of thing.

Certain aspects of the Palladium system are already points system. Choosing skills is essentially a points system where your character class tells you how many skills you can choose. Or how many spells you can choose. Or how many psionics you can choose. Or how much you can spend on bionics. Or spending Bio-E points on host armor/mounts. Etc.

Why not super powers?

--flatline

[Stone Gargoyle]

I don't really care for point systems personally. But that's just me.

It's not an all or nothing kind of thing.

Certain aspects of the Palladium system are already points system. Choosing skills is essentially a points system where your character class tells you how many skills you can choose. Or how many spells you can choose. Or how many psionics you can choose. Or how much you can spend on bionics. Or spending Bio-E points on host armor/mounts. Etc.

Why not super powers?

--flatline

I already avoid psionics due to it being so number intensive. I would prefer a lot of the calculating were done by the publisher so the power was presented already made and calculated to make it simpler to play.

[Damian Magecraft]

I always thought having minor and major categories was a bad way of doing it.

Each character should get some number of points that they can spend however they want.

Each power should list what it can do based on the number of points invested in it.

--flatline

I never did like systems like that...
All too often the "costs" for powers got prohibitive quickly or the power levels reached the ridiculous too quickly or both.
"stepped" powers is a nice idea in theory however.
Its just that all too often the execution is lacking.

If power increases linearly (think Champions or GURPS), you eventually stop investing points because of diminishing returns. If power increases exponentially (think White Wolf's system 15 years ago (I have no idea if they still use the d10 system)), then you specialize until you've maxed out the power and then you start developing another power.

Both approaches have their place depending on the type of game you want.

--flatline

and neither approach suits my play style.

The only decent variant of the concept was Marvels FASERIP system and it had its own issues. (especially after the introduction of the Ultimate Powers book).

[flatline]

I always thought having minor and major categories was a bad way of doing it.

Each character should get some number of points that they can spend however they want.

Each power should list what it can do based on the number of points invested in it.

--flatline

I never did like systems like that...
All too often the "costs" for powers got prohibitive quickly or the power levels reached the ridiculous too quickly or both.
"stepped" powers is a nice idea in theory however.
Its just that all too often the execution is lacking.

If power increases linearly (think Champions or GURPS), you eventually stop investing points because of diminishing returns. If power increases exponentially (think White Wolf's system 15 years ago (I have no idea if they still use the d10 system)), then you specialize until you've maxed out the power and then you start developing another power.

Both approaches have their place depending on the type of game you want.

--flatline

and neither approach suits my play style.

The only decent variant of the concept was Marvels FASERIP system and it had its own issues. (especially after the introduction of the Ultimate Powers book).

Take a look at FUDGE. It's kind of points based, but instead of buying things individually, you buy packages similar to how splicers has skill packages, except that the skills aren't specified, just the number of skills and the skill level for each (one package might have 2 mediocre skills, 2 good skills, and 1 great skill, another package might simply have 4 good skills, etc).

--flatline

[Damian Magecraft]

Take a look at FUDGE. It's kind of points based, but instead of buying things individually, you buy packages similar to how splicers has skill packages, except that the skills aren't specified, just the number of skills and the skill level for each (one package might have 2 mediocre skills, 2 good skills, and 1 great skill, another package might simply have 4 good skills, etc).
--flatline

Yeah, not a fan of FUDGE or FATE (I have not seen any redeeming qualities for either).

[Tor]

3) H.U. really needs a third level of powers between minor and major. Median powers? Medium, Midway, Middle powers?

Looking at the vowels, Major=A, Minor=I, E is the vowel in between so Median/Medium/Meager or something along those lines sounds perfect.

[Dobergirl]

I personally never make people roll, but I do want them to have a concept and stick with it.
I just can't imagine anyone selecting extraordinary physical strength over superhuman strength. In fact, I don't even know why the extraordinary physical strength power is even listed. Should just have the one power superhuman strength.

Then you haven't read the responses about the issue as well as what's said in the Heroes Unlimited Books regarding the issue, namely that not everyone wants superhuman strength and are fine with Extraordinary PS. You may want all the physical strength and power possible but not everyone thinks as you do, some are fine being stronger but not massively stronger than everyone else. It's the difference between the guy who's fine with Captain America's level of strength compared to Spider-man's.

Actually Superhuman is Captain America's levels of strength, Spider-man is Supernatural strength. (he can lift 10 tons on straight arms, people keep forgetting that!) Extraordinary strength is Batman, Punisher, Nightwing and such levels of strength. Probably not called so in their perspective canons but the heroes in Heroes Unlimited almost never reach the levels of the mainstream heroes, unless rolling them as either Immortals or Mega-Hero.

[Mediapig71]

There really is no right answer here... Heroes Unlimited was originally designed as a random roll system, which is why some powers within the same category are simply better than others. Considering this, the balance between powers is not precise. Wingless Flight is faster than Winged Flight, Energy Expulsion: Energy does less damage than Energy Expulsion: Light etc.

You can let people pick powers (and I always do), and the two categories keep things relatively in check, but it will never be perfect, and some players will always pick the more powerful ability. It's really no big deal, since they are building their concept by picking powers, and if they want the superhuman level of strength, who cares? The strength levels in HU are really low compared to most supers games anyway.

Personally, I was recently building a mystically powered martial artist type character, and I choose Extraordinary Strength. I wanted a guy who hit super hard, but could not lift a truck over his head. But if someone else wanted that level of strength, and chose Superhuman, so be it.

While I can see the logic of adding a third category of powers (since the Palladium System now categories things as Extraordinary, Superhuman, and Supernatural), I don't know if it would really be worth adding the extra complexity to chargen. I kind of like the "1 Major 2 Minor" distribution of powers.

[Nightmask]

I personally never make people roll, but I do want them to have a concept and stick with it.
I just can't imagine anyone selecting extraordinary physical strength over superhuman strength. In fact, I don't even know why the extraordinary physical strength power is even listed. Should just have the one power superhuman strength.

Then you haven't read the responses about the issue as well as what's said in the Heroes Unlimited Books regarding the issue, namely that not everyone wants superhuman strength and are fine with Extraordinary PS. You may want all the physical strength and power possible but not everyone thinks as you do, some are fine being stronger but not massively stronger than everyone else. It's the difference between the guy who's fine with Captain America's level of strength compared to Spider-man's.

Actually Superhuman is Captain America's levels of strength, Spider-man is Supernatural strength. (he can lift 10 tons on straight arms, people keep forgetting that!) Extraordinary strength is Batman, Punisher, Nightwing and such levels of strength. Probably not called so in their perspective canons but the heroes in Heroes Unlimited almost never reach the levels of the mainstream heroes, unless rolling them as either Immortals or Mega-Hero.

If there's one thing I'll never forget its the powers and abilities of Spider-man, but Heroes Unlimited's way of rating PS makes nearly all super-heroes in the Supernatural PS category from other companies. With the perspective HU has Spider-man would be more Extraordinary PS, and stretching it to say Superhuman (same goes with Captain America). So Captain America level is basically Extraordinary PS, Spider-man's level is Superhuman, and someone like Thor or Superman would be Supernatural level. You could never really represent those characters in HU terms because they'd need a PS in the 10s of thousands range of higher, which is absurd with how things are set up.

[Mediapig71]

I personally never make people roll, but I do want them to have a concept and stick with it.
I just can't imagine anyone selecting extraordinary physical strength over superhuman strength. In fact, I don't even know why the extraordinary physical strength power is even listed. Should just have the one power superhuman strength.

Then you haven't read the responses about the issue as well as what's said in the Heroes Unlimited Books regarding the issue, namely that not everyone wants superhuman strength and are fine with Extraordinary PS. You may want all the physical strength and power possible but not everyone thinks as you do, some are fine being stronger but not massively stronger than everyone else. It's the difference between the guy who's fine with Captain America's level of strength compared to Spider-man's.

Actually Superhuman is Captain America's levels of strength, Spider-man is Supernatural strength. (he can lift 10 tons on straight arms, people keep forgetting that!) Extraordinary strength is Batman, Punisher, Nightwing and such levels of strength. Probably not called so in their perspective canons but the heroes in Heroes Unlimited almost never reach the levels of the mainstream heroes, unless rolling them as either Immortals or Mega-Hero.

If there's one thing I'll never forget its the powers and abilities of Spider-man, but Heroes Unlimited's way of rating PS makes nearly all super-heroes in the Supernatural PS category from other companies. With the perspective HU has Spider-man would be more Extraordinary PS, and stretching it to say Superhuman (same goes with Captain America). So Captain America level is basically Extraordinary PS, Spider-man's level is Superhuman, and someone like Thor or Superman would be Supernatural level. You could never really represent those characters in HU terms because they'd need a PS in the 10s of thousands range of higher, which is absurd with how things are set up.

Also, it's worth nothing that, within Heroes Unlimited, even Physical Training characters can acquire Extraordinary and Superhuman Strength. So someone like Batman or the Punisher could, theoretically, have Superman Strength.

[Tor]

if you have a concept you want to stick with, that's one thing it other than that, why would anyone take extraordinary PS?

Other than PCs who might want to design PCs intentionally weaker, some GMs have players make random rolls to determine their super abilities.

Doing it that way you can actually roll Supernatural PS (a major power) as a minor power, because it's on the Extraordinary Attributes table, which you can roll on as a result of rolling for minor super powers.

Physical Training characters can acquire Extraordinary and Superhuman Strength. So someone like Batman or the Punisher could, theoretically, have Superman Strength.

That's assuming those classes are appropriate. I always pegged Punisher as more of a 'hunter' (kinda like Kraven) or as that Secret Operative or whatever it's called.

Batman could actually be a Super Sleuth who selects a N&SS martial art (there are rules for this in N&SS) though I'm not really sure which, maybe Ninjutsu?

Even supposing either were PT, and about the toughness/strength option (built as Bats is, and I know we want to contrast him with smaller agile guys like the Robins, I still think Bats would be about defensive/speed) I think Supes would end up having supernatural strength one way (the major power) or another (mega hero).

[Jefffar]

Warning: A reminder, on these boards there is a No Conversions policy. This includes discussing which Palladium classes might be best suited for emulating comic book characters.

If further posts discussing this appear in this thread the posters will e warned and the thread locked.

[Dobergirl]

Warning: A reminder, on these boards there is a No Conversions policy. This includes discussing which Palladium classes might be best suited for emulating comic book characters.

If further posts discussing this appear in this thread the posters will e warned and the thread locked.

I... I'm sorry, I didn't mean to help emulate the heroes or start any emulation discussion, really. I was just referencing to how strong Spider-man is and how people seem to forget that. In no way was I trying to make what would be best for him, I am very sorry Jeff.


Besides, I never understood why you'd want to make a copy of Superman or someone like that in the first place. At most, you'd only be known as second grade copy and at the worst, total rip off. (And like Nightmask mentioned it'd be literally impossible to meet many of the charas stats anyway) Personally, if my player has told me they want to be just like *insert name here* I have most of the times helped make the character noticeably different because it'd be very boring for me to GM the copy of famous character as well.

[Jefffar]

That's why the warning was not applied to any specific posts or posters. A reminder as it were.

Just don't' get too close to the conversion line and all is good.

[Tor]

Supernatural strength (can lift 10 tons on straight arms)

Being able to do a locked out support of a given weight isn't the same as being able to 'lift' the weight though. Compare the number of people who can do handstands to the number who can do handstand pushups. Or the number of people who can stand versus the number who can squat. Or the number who can balance on 1 leg compared to the number who can pistol squat. People are always dramatically stronger at lockout since the bones are aligned to optimize leverage.

[Dobergirl]

Supernatural strength (can lift 10 tons on straight arms)

Being able to do a locked out support of a given weight isn't the same as being able to 'lift' the weight though. Compare the number of people who can do handstands to the number who can do handstand pushups. Or the number of people who can stand versus the number who can squat. Or the number who can balance on 1 leg compared to the number who can pistol squat. People are always dramatically stronger at lockout since the bones are aligned to optimize leverage.

Way to entirely miss the point. And besides, if you can't handle the weight and put yourself in lockout, you'll have a serious injury.

[Jedrious]

Another thing people are forgetting is that some Major powers come with Minor powers rolled into them the various attribute abilities in particular, by having two categories it allows for the lesser one to be included instead of the higher one

[Tor]

Way to entirely miss the point.

Which is what? The stats for lifting weight in Rifts indicate the amount you can raise, not the amount you can support in a raised position.

if you can't handle the weight and put yourself in lockout, you'll have a serious injury.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'handle the weight'. People do not need to be capable of lifting a weight through a full RoM to be able to support it in lockout (or near-lockout) without injury. This is why people who can't pistol squat can still run.

[Dobergirl]

Way to entirely miss the point.

Which is what? The stats for lifting weight in Rifts indicate the amount you can raise, not the amount you can support in a raised position.

When generally talking about superheroes and stuff, how much they can lift is exactly how much they can support or that can sometimes be a bit more than lifting depending on the writer and the scene. This isn't Rifts, so I don't think those stats would apply here.

[Damian Magecraft]

Way to entirely miss the point.

Which is what? The stats for lifting weight in Rifts indicate the amount you can raise, not the amount you can support in a raised position.

When generally talking about superheroes and stuff, how much they can lift is exactly how much they can support or that can sometimes be a bit more than lifting depending on the writer and the scene. This isn't Rifts, so I don't think those stats would apply here.

Are you trying to use the Comics Medium to justify your stance? Not a stable footing that... the Hero has the Strength the plot requires which the RPG medium cannot emulate since it does require we quantify every power to the last decimal.

[flatline]

Way to entirely miss the point.

Which is what? The stats for lifting weight in Rifts indicate the amount you can raise, not the amount you can support in a raised position.

When generally talking about superheroes and stuff, how much they can lift is exactly how much they can support or that can sometimes be a bit more than lifting depending on the writer and the scene. This isn't Rifts, so I don't think those stats would apply here.

Are you trying to use the Comics Medium to justify your stance? Not a stable footing that... the Hero has the Strength the plot requires which the RPG medium cannot emulate since it does require we quantify every power to the last decimal.

I think you are confusing role playing games with tactical war games. RPGs can be as detailed (or not) as they want to be.

--flatline

[Damian Magecraft]

Way to entirely miss the point.

Which is what? The stats for lifting weight in Rifts indicate the amount you can raise, not the amount you can support in a raised position.

When generally talking about superheroes and stuff, how much they can lift is exactly how much they can support or that can sometimes be a bit more than lifting depending on the writer and the scene. This isn't Rifts, so I don't think those stats would apply here.

Are you trying to use the Comics Medium to justify your stance? Not a stable footing that... the Hero has the Strength the plot requires which the RPG medium cannot emulate since it does require we quantify every power to the last decimal.

I think you are confusing role playing games with tactical war games. RPGs can be as detailed (or not) as they want to be.

--flatline

In both there are limits that are applied to the abilities a char may have. Emulating the Power levels of plot is not something a game system of any stripe is able to do well.
That is why most of them leave that up to each individual GM.

[flatline]

When generally talking about superheroes and stuff, how much they can lift is exactly how much they can support or that can sometimes be a bit more than lifting depending on the writer and the scene. This isn't Rifts, so I don't think those stats would apply here.

Are you trying to use the Comics Medium to justify your stance? Not a stable footing that... the Hero has the Strength the plot requires which the RPG medium cannot emulate since it does require we quantify every power to the last decimal.

I think you are confusing role playing games with tactical war games. RPGs can be as detailed (or not) as they want to be.

--flatline

In both there are limits that are applied to the abilities a char may have. Emulating the Power levels of plot is not something a game system of any stripe is able to do well.
That is why most of them leave that up to each individual GM.

In an RPG, the GM is the arbitrator who can choose to allow or disallow whatever he wants which can easily include allowing characters to accomplish whatever feat advances the plot even if their stats are technically insufficient.

A tactical war game, on the other hand, has no arbitrator analogous to the GM, so the rules of such a game must carefully describe the proper handling of any scenario that might come up within the rules.

--flatline

[Damian Magecraft]

I think you are confusing role playing games with tactical war games. RPGs can be as detailed (or not) as they want to be.

--flatline

In both there are limits that are applied to the abilities a char may have. Emulating the Power levels of plot is not something a game system of any stripe is able to do well.
That is why most of them leave that up to each individual GM.

In an RPG, the GM is the arbitrator who can choose to allow or disallow whatever he wants which can easily include allowing characters to accomplish whatever feat advances the plot even if their stats are technically insufficient.

A tactical war game, on the other hand, has no arbitrator analogous to the GM, so the rules of such a game must carefully describe the proper handling of any scenario that might come up within the rules.

--flatline

Not arguing that point.
The GM is the Final Arbiter of what happens in his/her game.
But when one discusses such things in the context of a message forum such as this we must all work from a common ground. That ground is unfortunately that of the text in the books and the text alone.
To base a discussion on anything outside what can and cannot be be with in the frame work of the common rules is pointless. Since in that respect neither party can back up their points with anything beyond "well it works this way because I say it does."

[flatline]

I think you are confusing role playing games with tactical war games. RPGs can be as detailed (or not) as they want to be.

--flatline

In both there are limits that are applied to the abilities a char may have. Emulating the Power levels of plot is not something a game system of any stripe is able to do well.
That is why most of them leave that up to each individual GM.

In an RPG, the GM is the arbitrator who can choose to allow or disallow whatever he wants which can easily include allowing characters to accomplish whatever feat advances the plot even if their stats are technically insufficient.

A tactical war game, on the other hand, has no arbitrator analogous to the GM, so the rules of such a game must carefully describe the proper handling of any scenario that might come up within the rules.

--flatline

Not arguing that point.
The GM is the Final Arbiter of what happens in his/her game.
But when one discusses such things in the context of a message forum such as this we must all work from a common ground. That ground is unfortunately that of the text in the books and the text alone.
To base a discussion on anything outside what can and cannot be be with in the frame work of the common rules is pointless. Since in that respect neither party can back up their points with anything beyond "well it works this way because I say it does."

Correct. But since an RPG has a GM to cover the gaps, it is not necessary for the rules to "quantify every power to the last decimal". That was the point I was trying to make.

--flatline

[Damian Magecraft]

Not arguing that point.
The GM is the Final Arbiter of what happens in his/her game.
But when one discusses such things in the context of a message forum such as this we must all work from a common ground. That ground is unfortunately that of the text in the books and the text alone.
To base a discussion on anything outside what can and cannot be be with in the frame work of the common rules is pointless. Since in that respect neither party can back up their points with anything beyond "well it works this way because I say it does."

Correct. But since an RPG has a GM to cover the gaps, it is not necessary for the rules to "quantify every power to the last decimal". That was the point I was trying to make.

--flatline

And that is where you would be wrong...
The system has to quantify things to that degree because no two people will run the game the same way.
Some want to run it at as a table top tactical game.
Some want to run it as story driven.
Some want a mix of the two.
So the system has to take into account all three points of view.
The Frame of reference has to be same for all three types.
Where they choose to take it from there is their choice but they must have the same base frame of reference to begin any conversations.

[flatline]

Not arguing that point.
The GM is the Final Arbiter of what happens in his/her game.
But when one discusses such things in the context of a message forum such as this we must all work from a common ground. That ground is unfortunately that of the text in the books and the text alone.
To base a discussion on anything outside what can and cannot be be with in the frame work of the common rules is pointless. Since in that respect neither party can back up their points with anything beyond "well it works this way because I say it does."

Correct. But since an RPG has a GM to cover the gaps, it is not necessary for the rules to "quantify every power to the last decimal". That was the point I was trying to make.

--flatline

And that is where you would be wrong...
The system has to quantify things to that degree because no two people will run the game the same way.

Where do you get the idea that it matters if different people run the game the same way?

House rules abound, even for systems that are better defined than Palladium's.

Some want to run it at as a table top tactical game.
Some want to run it as story driven.
Some want a mix of the two.
So the system has to take into account all three points of view.

No, the system is free to ignore any or all of the above, instead relying on the GM to facilitate whatever style of play they desire. Of course, if it doesn't cater to anybody, then it's not likely to be very popular.

The Frame of reference has to be same for all three types.
Where they choose to take it from there is their choice but they must have the same base frame of reference to begin any conversations.

Again, why is it important that different games start at the same place?

--flatline

[Damian Magecraft]

Again, why is it important that different games start at the same place?

--flatline

If you have to ask then no answer I give is going to enlighten your already closed mind.

[flatline]

Again, why is it important that different games start at the same place?

--flatline

If you have to ask then no answer I give is going to enlighten your already closed mind.

I apologize if I somehow struck a nerve, but if I'm a lost cause for some reason, then perhaps you can answer for the others who are reading this thread.

--flatline

[Damian Magecraft]

Again, why is it important that different games start at the same place?

--flatline

If you have to ask then no answer I give is going to enlighten your already closed mind.

I apologize if I somehow struck a nerve, but if I'm a lost cause for some reason, then perhaps you can answer for the others who are reading this thread.

--flatline

I already have... twice.

[Jefffar]

Again, why is it important that different games start at the same place?

--flatline

If you have to ask then no answer I give is going to enlighten your already closed mind.

Then it's better to not answer than to make a comment about another poster. More of this results in a warning

[Tor]

Way to entirely miss the point.

Which is what? The stats for lifting weight in Rifts indicate the amount you can raise, not the amount you can support in a raised position.

When generally talking about superheroes and stuff, how much they can lift is exactly how much they can support or that can sometimes be a bit more than lifting depending on the writer and the scene. This isn't Rifts, so I don't think those stats would apply here.

Oy, slip of the fingers, you know full well the lifting multipliers in HU are bigger anyway =/

What one generally means when talking about heroes doesn't apply to HU, since this isn't DC or Marvel Lift clearly means to bring/move up, not hold/keep up.

Now I have this strange interest in derailing the thread to argue about, unrelated to RPGs, whether the Hulk is stronger for lifting a mountain versus Thing being strong for holding together the Brooklyn bridge.

[say652]

ex ps lifts more than supernatural damage is the same. so if you plan on throwing heavy stuff ex ps if you plan on punching and kicking stick with supernatural.