Stuff from my campaign: Manufacturing Levels

[Noon]

Really can't stand a treasure chest sitting their full of credits - how'd those orcs get it? Why did it show up JUST as the players armour needed paid for repairs?

Worked up an idea that I'll outline in brief here - basically the group in it's travels finds (or is given information by people they've helped and find) where various resources can be gained to make stuff. Starting with farm implements at manufacturing level 1, then ethanol fuel at level 2 (or whatever you think they could make). But travel is dangerous - either a fight must be entered, or they have to pass at prowl or land navigation rolls (or come up with a clever plan. If the plan fails, you have to roll). Fail the rolls and you still fight, with slightly worse odds. If you end up running from the fight, you drop down two manufacturing levels (minimum is level 1). If you win or avoid a fight, you get enough resources to manufacture an item of your manufacturing level. Then you get to roll on a trade chart a number of times equal to your manufacture level. My trade chart has stuff like smoked meat at the bottom, frag grenades in the middle and on a nat twenty, a lucky windfall of a big cash trade.

Also if you win or avoid three fights in a row you go up a manufacturing level.

Basically only fights which could help you go up a manufacturing level risk also going down. If you can't go up, no risk of going down.

I like this system and wanted to share the general idea (might even submit a proper write up to the rifter) - instead of just plopping down just enough cash behind monsters (which also means they pretty much have to kill, when I want that to be a choice in play, not a requirement).

[taalismn]

Interesting...it's like the trade Contact skill, only pertaining to resource availability. Rather than scrounge for indivdiual parts for each creation, there's a more general 'what do we know we can get ahold of right now?' feel to this if I'm reading it right.

[dragonfett]

It seems complicated to me, but I am still groggy too.

[Hot Rod]

Interesting, I'd like to hear of more ways to reward 'creative' solutions rather than 'kill the guy & loot his stuff'.

HR

[Godogma]

Honestly this seems somewhat interesting; but the simple fact is your average player isn't going to give a rat's behind about it and I don't see how its going to work out very well in Rifts at all. Considering the lack of PC OCCs ability in most cases to make MDC materials and the honest lack of usefulness of your items in general from your stated examples.

The trade goods from the killed critters in the fights are going to be worth far more than any of the listed examples or they aren't going to be a threat to the characters in the first place.

You might be going for more of a Post Apocalyptic game, but it doesn't fit the published material for Rifts Earth in the examples you presented. Most OCCs start with weapons and armor far in excess of their own ability to maintain and making stuff takes time that could be spent roleplaying and adventuring. Technowizards and Operators are the only exceptions to the rules of maintaining and making stuff - which they probably could but it still takes TIME as well as resources.

Just doesn't seem feasible in the Rifts setting.

In a Fallout style scenario it probably has some merit.

[dragonfett]

Really can't stand a treasure chest sitting their full of credits - how'd those orcs get it? Why did it show up JUST as the players armour needed paid for repairs?

Worked up an idea that I'll outline in brief here - basically the group in it's travels finds (or is given information by people they've helped and find) where various resources can be gained to make stuff. Starting with farm implements at manufacturing level 1, then ethanol fuel at level 2 (or whatever you think they could make). But travel is dangerous - either a fight must be entered, or they have to pass at prowl or land navigation rolls (or come up with a clever plan. If the plan fails, you have to roll). Fail the rolls and you still fight, with slightly worse odds. If you end up running from the fight, you drop down two manufacturing levels (minimum is level 1). If you win or avoid a fight, you get enough resources to manufacture an item of your manufacturing level. Then you get to roll on a trade chart a number of times equal to your manufacture level. My trade chart has stuff like smoked meat at the bottom, frag grenades in the middle and on a nat twenty, a lucky windfall of a big cash trade.

Also if you win or avoid three fights in a row you go up a manufacturing level.

Basically only fights which could help you go up a manufacturing level risk also going down. If you can't go up, no risk of going down.

I like this system and wanted to share the general idea (might even submit a proper write up to the rifter) - instead of just plopping down just enough cash behind monsters (which also means they pretty much have to kill, when I want that to be a choice in play, not a requirement).

Just how did those orcs get those credits? I don't know about you, but I generally run orcs as scavengers and raiders, and as such kill others for their stuff. And it seems like players are ALWAYS needing repairs or something.

[Noon]

Honestly this seems somewhat interesting; but the simple fact is your average player isn't going to give a rat's behind about it and I don't see how its going to work out very well in Rifts at all. Considering the lack of PC OCCs ability in most cases to make MDC materials and the honest lack of usefulness of your items in general from your stated examples.

I'm guessing you're thinking just useful to the PC's? I did say you are making items to trade.

The trade goods from the killed critters in the fights are going to be worth far more than any of the listed examples or they aren't going to be a threat to the characters in the first place.

What is going to be worth it? And to whom? I'm not familiar with any rules for actually turning, say, raptor skins into MDC armour (I don't have dinosaur swamp ... and anyway I'm aiming for a main book feel).

Most OCCs start with weapons and armor far in excess of their own ability to maintain and making stuff takes time that could be spent roleplaying and adventuring.

Well, if you're just roleplaying/talking, no worries, don't need to earn much money to do that.

If you're adventures include fights or fights that can potentially be avoided, this plugs right into those fights. If you don't have fights in your adventures, okay, fair enough.

Given how cash driven a PC's equipment is in rifts, I'm not sure what sort of adventures you have - could you describe how your players keep their MDC armour repaired?

[Noon]

Just how did those orcs get those credits? I don't know about you, but I generally run orcs as scavengers and raiders, and as such kill others for their stuff. And it seems like players are ALWAYS needing repairs or something.

Well, who do they kill that has all this money BUT an orc can still kill them YET the players can still kill the orcs without taking more damage than the money will pay for repairs?

To me it just seems contrived if some orcs who have A: been raiding petty farmers for a handful of credits at a time, for like a decade and B: haven't spent it on booze as fast as they raided it then C: always show up just at the right time for the PC's to get repairs.

[Godogma]

Just how did those orcs get those credits? I don't know about you, but I generally run orcs as scavengers and raiders, and as such kill others for their stuff. And it seems like players are ALWAYS needing repairs or something.

Well, who do they kill that has all this money BUT an orc can still kill them YET the players can still kill the orcs without taking more damage than the money will pay for repairs?

To me it just seems contrived if some orcs who have A: been raiding petty farmers for a handful of credits at a time, for like a decade and B: haven't spent it on booze as fast as they raided it then C: always show up just at the right time for the PC's to get repairs.

I don't know about how you run things, but orcs in my games generally aren't a real threat unless they have MDC weapons and armor of their own. So ... by definition their kit is going to be worth more than any trade good you mentioned at the lower levels of your chart.

Generally the world of Rifts doesn't work on a "cash" or "credit" system, they deal in trade... MDC weapons and armor are worth far more as trade than a nebulous system of items worth piddling amounts.

I can't say whether or not your system has a main book feel to it - it certainly doesn't seem to fit the world very well. But I do have Dinosaur Swamp and they do list prices for several different types of dinosaur hides. But I never mentioned dinosaurs when I was replying. The example was orcs, so if these orcs are enough of a problem to be an encounter for the PCs they by that stipulation have to have MDC armor and weapons... Thus their weapons are worth more in trade than the item you're talking about on your chart.

But I can't say too much about it considering you've named off two very low end items and a couple of items at the mid level of the scale - I think I saw grenades in there somewhere... But in any case, sell the ork's loot seems more likely to be worth something to someone than the stuff you have listed. Especially if you're moving up this chart with one set of low end items for trade at a time.

Operators and technowizards are typically how the groups I've played in got their goods repaired. Mend the broken is a nice spell to have built into an item as I'm sure you're able to check just how cheaply that one *can* be made. There are several different versions of it statted on the forums already. Play testing has shown me that these items aren't overpowered and do add something to the game so I as a GM allow them. Namely it helps with avoiding the whole "your armor is scrugged and you're over 350 miles from any sort of civilization and you have to scrunch around to try and make it to town while avoiding everything" which doesn't usually go over very well with most players.

I don't deny that scarcity does take a hit, but the lack of annoyance helps me keep my player's attention and it also tips things a bit more in favor of magic which generally gets a raw deal for some reason in Rifts. Which I like...

[dragonfett]

Honestly this seems somewhat interesting; but the simple fact is your average player isn't going to give a rat's behind about it and I don't see how its going to work out very well in Rifts at all. Considering the lack of PC OCCs ability in most cases to make MDC materials and the honest lack of usefulness of your items in general from your stated examples.

I'm guessing you're thinking just useful to the PC's? I did say you are making items to trade.

The trade goods from the killed critters in the fights are going to be worth far more than any of the listed examples or they aren't going to be a threat to the characters in the first place.

What is going to be worth it? And to whom? I'm not familiar with any rules for actually turning, say, raptor skins into MDC armour (I don't have dinosaur swamp ... and anyway I'm aiming for a main book feel).

Most OCCs start with weapons and armor far in excess of their own ability to maintain and making stuff takes time that could be spent roleplaying and adventuring.

Well, if you're just roleplaying/talking, no worries, don't need to earn much money to do that.

If you're adventures include fights or fights that can potentially be avoided, this plugs right into those fights. If you don't have fights in your adventures, okay, fair enough.

Given how cash driven a PC's equipment is in rifts, I'm not sure what sort of adventures you have - could you describe how your players keep their MDC armour repaired?

I would use the leatherworking skill to turn raptor hide into armor.

[Noon]

Dragonfett replies to what I posted to Godogma, and Godogma replies to what I posted to Dragonfett...confusing.

I don't know about how you run things, but orcs in my games generally aren't a real threat unless they have MDC weapons and armor of their own. So ... by definition...

Err, as I'm reading that it's incredibly meta game - they have MD weapons and armour - because they have to match some sort of challenge rating system? "Where did they get these weapons from?" "It doesn't matter - they have to have them to be a threat!" "Blah!"

If you have more of an outline on how the orcs get MD weapons and arms (BUT not such great weapons or arms that they do more damage to the PC's than they are worth (let alone that they will just be able to get guns that kill PC's dead)) more than 'cause they have to to be a threat' I'm really interested in hearing it as it took me awhile to make up my current one.

BTW, the game I'm running isn't dragon hatchlings and power armours and such. Rogue scientists, LLW, burster, wild dog boy, wilderness scout. Those sorts.

it certainly doesn't seem to fit the world very well.

No farmers/villagers in your vision of Rifts? Or maybe just a paltry handful or something?

Or they exist, but they all walk around in Ultim Max's? It's not like they work they earth and...need shovels to do that? Or fuel to operate their tractors, motor bikes and pick ups?

I get that some peoples Rifts games are alot more pretty than how I imagine the world.

I would use the leatherworking skill to turn raptor hide into armor.

Even looking past an absence of rules for it (in the books I own), I can't imagine A: It's going to produce the amounts that pay off damage (even if it does then it's 'oh, that CS encounter was rough - let's grind raptors till were flush again!') and B: Who out in the wilderness has the cash to buy it - I just don't want to have NPC vendors who have bottomless pockets buying this stuff.

Further more, it's simply the same thing I'm describing - have a fight, get a resource, craft it and trade it off (I'm assuming it's not like 'Hey, I killed a raptor - I can now make a 50 MDC armour out of that to replace my urban warrior armour!').

[Godogma]

Dragonfett replies to what I posted to Godogma, and Godogma replies to what I posted to Dragonfett...confusing.

I don't know about how you run things, but orcs in my games generally aren't a real threat unless they have MDC weapons and armor of their own. So ... by definition...

Err, as I'm reading that it's incredibly meta game - they have MD weapons and armour - because they have to match some sort of challenge rating system? "Where did they get these weapons from?" "It doesn't matter - they have to have them to be a threat!" "Blah!"

If you have more of an outline on how the orcs get MD weapons and arms (BUT not such great weapons or arms that they do more damage to the PC's than they are worth (let alone that they will just be able to get guns that kill PC's dead)) more than 'cause they have to to be a threat' I'm really interested in hearing it as it took me awhile to make up my current one.

BTW, the game I'm running isn't dragon hatchlings and power armours and such. Rogue scientists, LLW, burster, wild dog boy, wilderness scout. Those sorts.

I would use the leatherworking skill to turn raptor hide into armor.

Even looking past an absence of rules for it (in the books I own), I can't imagine A: It's going to produce the amounts that pay off damage (even if it does then it's 'oh, that CS encounter was rough - let's grind raptors till were flush again!') and B: Who out in the wilderness has the cash to buy it - I just don't want to have NPC vendors who have bottomless pockets buying this stuff.

Further more, it's simply the same thing I'm describing - have a fight, get a resource, craft it and trade it off (I'm assuming it's not like 'Hey, I killed a raptor - I can now make a 50 MDC armour out of that to replace my urban warrior armour!').

An encounter needs to be challenging for the players, otherwise the players are just going to wipe out the orcs in general and it's not much of an encounter to start with. You included no information on the make up of the characters of the game so I was speaking purely in general. Why would the orcs attack people who start with MD armor if they don't have MD weapons? The concept is mind boggling; they generally are stupid but not that stupid.

Every GM has to balance encounters to play any game and make it both interesting and not so hard it's not fun for the players. Frankly your system doesn't sound much fun to me atop the fact that it just doesn't seem like something that fits the setting.

You're not providing much information and we can't read your mind so I'll bow out of this discussion at this point. Like I said none of it makes much sense to me for Rifts - MDC encounters make up 80-90% of the world so ... Your mileage may vary but IIRC without checking all the characters you named started with at least one MD weapon and some MD armor. The burster and mage have a decent amount of damage dealing ability without counting any weapons involved and I think the mage starts with Armor of Ithan.

But yeah if they're hunting dinosaurs and have appropriate skills they can replace their armor with decent stuff. *shrug*

[Godogma]

The players aren't those selfsame farmers. Where and how are they manufacturing these items of yours? Tanning doesn't take much work, you can do it with the brains of the critter you just killed plus some very common chemicals - even urine can be successfully used as it's partially ammonia.

If a person wants to farm they can do it in real life - why play a game to escape reality if all you're going to do is stuff you can do in a pot in your kitchen? I have no interest in a farming sim.

EDIT: And your system determines what the characters can even do and its based on a ranked table not their skills and the parts they have available. That also doesn't make sense to me.

[MikelAmroni]

Really can't stand a treasure chest sitting their full of credits - how'd those orcs get it? Why did it show up JUST as the players armour needed paid for repairs?

Worked up an idea that I'll outline in brief here - basically the group in it's travels finds (or is given information by people they've helped and find) where various resources can be gained to make stuff. Starting with farm implements at manufacturing level 1, then ethanol fuel at level 2 (or whatever you think they could make). But travel is dangerous - either a fight must be entered, or they have to pass at prowl or land navigation rolls (or come up with a clever plan. If the plan fails, you have to roll). Fail the rolls and you still fight, with slightly worse odds. If you end up running from the fight, you drop down two manufacturing levels (minimum is level 1). If you win or avoid a fight, you get enough resources to manufacture an item of your manufacturing level. Then you get to roll on a trade chart a number of times equal to your manufacture level. My trade chart has stuff like smoked meat at the bottom, frag grenades in the middle and on a nat twenty, a lucky windfall of a big cash trade.

Also if you win or avoid three fights in a row you go up a manufacturing level.

Basically only fights which could help you go up a manufacturing level risk also going down. If you can't go up, no risk of going down.

I like this system and wanted to share the general idea (might even submit a proper write up to the rifter) - instead of just plopping down just enough cash behind monsters (which also means they pretty much have to kill, when I want that to be a choice in play, not a requirement).

I can see a certain appeal to this, but it's just as easy, as a GM, to simply take a bunch of gear, equip it on those same orcs, and go to town. It'd be scratched, pockmarked, and generally in bad repair, but it'd also be useable. The nice thing about equipping your bad guys is the PCs are in direct control of what loot they get. Aim for that weapon? Ok, just means you don't get it! Get clever with the disarms and such? Awesome, you got some good stuff. Explosives and missiles are easy for everything except looting. I'm not even going to talk about what happens when a Boom gun or particle beam hits something. Talk them down through use of fear and displays of power or simply capture them? You get a lot more. Anything which makes the situation NOT evolve into a slug fest is something I reward.

That said, I could see the appeal of the system for things the orcs don't know how to use and are going to trade to someone else. After all even raiders trade. It all depends heavily on what's ON those charts.

[Nightmask]

Dragonfett replies to what I posted to Godogma, and Godogma replies to what I posted to Dragonfett...confusing.

I don't know about how you run things, but orcs in my games generally aren't a real threat unless they have MDC weapons and armor of their own. So ... by definition...

Err, as I'm reading that it's incredibly meta game - they have MD weapons and armour - because they have to match some sort of challenge rating system? "Where did they get these weapons from?" "It doesn't matter - they have to have them to be a threat!" "Blah!"

If you have more of an outline on how the orcs get MD weapons and arms (BUT not such great weapons or arms that they do more damage to the PC's than they are worth (let alone that they will just be able to get guns that kill PC's dead)) more than 'cause they have to to be a threat' I'm really interested in hearing it as it took me awhile to make up my current one.

BTW, the game I'm running isn't dragon hatchlings and power armours and such. Rogue scientists, LLW, burster, wild dog boy, wilderness scout. Those sorts.

I would use the leatherworking skill to turn raptor hide into armor.

Even looking past an absence of rules for it (in the books I own), I can't imagine A: It's going to produce the amounts that pay off damage (even if it does then it's 'oh, that CS encounter was rough - let's grind raptors till were flush again!') and B: Who out in the wilderness has the cash to buy it - I just don't want to have NPC vendors who have bottomless pockets buying this stuff.

Further more, it's simply the same thing I'm describing - have a fight, get a resource, craft it and trade it off (I'm assuming it's not like 'Hey, I killed a raptor - I can now make a 50 MDC armour out of that to replace my urban warrior armour!').

An encounter needs to be challenging for the players, otherwise the players are just going to wipe out the orcs in general and it's not much of an encounter to start with. You included no information on the make up of the characters of the game so I was speaking purely in general. Why would the orcs attack people who start with MD armor if they don't have MD weapons? The concept is mind boggling; they generally are stupid but not that stupid.

Every GM has to balance encounters to play any game and make it both interesting and not so hard it's not fun for the players. Frankly your system doesn't sound much fun to me atop the fact that it just doesn't seem like something that fits the setting.

You're not providing much information and we can't read your mind so I'll bow out of this discussion at this point. Like I said none of it makes much sense to me for Rifts - MDC encounters make up 80-90% of the world so ... Your mileage may vary but IIRC without checking all the characters you named started with at least one MD weapon and some MD armor. The burster and mage have a decent amount of damage dealing ability without counting any weapons involved and I think the mage starts with Armor of Ithan.

But yeah if they're hunting dinosaurs and have appropriate skills they can replace their armor with decent stuff. *shrug*

Not every adventure is or should be challenging, some fights should be easy because like in life oftentimes one side or the other has the overwhelming advantage going in and their opponents stood no chance against them. Just as not every adventure should be winnable either, some on occasion should be the 'Oh my God run!' type where it's the PC group that's the underdog that better run or die. So sometimes they should have a fairly easy win of cash and prizes as counterbalance to the ones that are challenging and costly.

[Godogma]

It doesn't have to be costly to be challenging, but yes I agree sometimes its good to have an easy fight or two... But unless they just ran out of a Rift... When are you going to find orcs that will attack someone in MDC armor that don't have MDC armor and weapons? I mean... sure they're dumb... but are they that dumb?

[MikelAmroni]

I personally don't make anyone that dumb. Although I personally also have them use trickery and stealth their advantage. After all folks can't sleep in body armor. That's what SDC combat is FOR!

[Godogma]

I personally don't make anyone that dumb. Although I personally also have them use trickery and stealth their advantage. After all folks can't sleep in body armor. That's what SDC combat is FOR!

Yup... But even the critters with 2d6 IQ like orcs don't tend to live long without MDC weapons and armor in Rifts Earth... and love energy weapons, rail guns and bionics.

[Noon]

An encounter needs to be challenging for the players, otherwise the players are just going to wipe out the orcs in general and it's not much of an encounter to start with.

Reminds me of Oblivion where common bandits (well, Marauders) start getting Daedric armour. Just to be balanced.

Really you seem to use a 'take random scruffy orc bandits and give them weapons and armour they just could never have afforded or even gained through raiding' method.

If the players need a tougher fight, I don't upgrade scruffy orc bandits, I simply start taking from the rest of the Rifts worlds many dangers - like a CS patrol, for example.

Why do unrealistic upgrading when you can simply draw from the many nastier groups out there?

You included no information on the make up of the characters of the game so I was speaking purely in general. Why would the orcs attack people who start with MD armor if they don't have MD weapons? The concept is mind boggling; they generally are stupid but not that stupid.

You're treating it as if the only way to have an MD weapon is to own a 6500 credit gun (at the very least) and 5000 credit e-clip.

Sure it's mind boggling if you keep that assumption firmly in mind.

Every GM has to balance encounters to play any game and make it both interesting and not so hard it's not fun for the players. Frankly your system doesn't sound much fun to me atop the fact that it just doesn't seem like something that fits the setting.

And your idea of the setting seems to be that the world warps itself to fit the PC group. I'll grant, I don't run a world that twists itself in knots to fit the PC's. In ours or any fictional world in a novel, I can't think of any where the world somehow upgrades or downgrades orcs to fit a certain group of people. Though Westworld might be a close fit.

You're not providing much information and we can't read your mind so I'll bow out of this discussion at this point. Like I said none of it makes much sense to me for Rifts - MDC encounters make up 80-90% of the world

And your assuming the only way an opponent can do MD is with a several thousand credit weapon. I get that.

It just seems contrived to me that your local orc has enough money to buy that sort of weapon, yet not so much money they don't buy a better weapon than the PC's and kill the PC's with it.

Let's just say in the main book, grenades are cheap and do good damage. 3D6 MD for a plasma grenade, at 200 credits - an orc could afford a couple of those, I'd say. Or you can keep equiping them with gear they'd have no way of buying.

But yeah if they're hunting dinosaurs and have appropriate skills they can replace their armor with decent stuff. *shrug*

Once I have it in text in a book, I'll agree.

[Godogma]

An encounter needs to be challenging for the players, otherwise the players are just going to wipe out the orcs in general and it's not much of an encounter to start with.

Reminds me of Oblivion where common bandits (well, Marauders) start getting Daedric armour. Just to be balanced.

Really you seem to use a 'take random scruffy orc bandits and give them weapons and armour they just could never have afforded or even gained through raiding' method.

If the players need a tougher fight, I don't upgrade scruffy orc bandits, I simply start taking from the rest of the Rifts worlds many dangers - like a CS patrol, for example.

Why do unrealistic upgrading when you can simply draw from the many nastier groups out there?

You included no information on the make up of the characters of the game so I was speaking purely in general. Why would the orcs attack people who start with MD armor if they don't have MD weapons? The concept is mind boggling; they generally are stupid but not that stupid.

You're treating it as if the only way to have an MD weapon is to own a 6500 credit gun (at the very least) and 5000 credit e-clip.

Sure it's mind boggling if you keep that assumption firmly in mind.

Every GM has to balance encounters to play any game and make it both interesting and not so hard it's not fun for the players. Frankly your system doesn't sound much fun to me atop the fact that it just doesn't seem like something that fits the setting.

And your idea of the setting seems to be that the world warps itself to fit the PC group. I'll grant, I don't run a world that twists itself in knots to fit the PC's. In ours or any fictional world in a novel, I can't think of any where the world somehow upgrades or downgrades orcs to fit a certain group of people. Though Westworld might be a close fit.

You're not providing much information and we can't read your mind so I'll bow out of this discussion at this point. Like I said none of it makes much sense to me for Rifts - MDC encounters make up 80-90% of the world

And your assuming the only way an opponent can do MD is with a several thousand credit weapon. I get that.

It just seems contrived to me that your local orc has enough money to buy that sort of weapon, yet not so much money they don't buy a better weapon than the PC's and kill the PC's with it.

Let's just say in the main book, grenades are cheap and do good damage. 3D6 MD for a plasma grenade, at 200 credits - an orc could afford a couple of those, I'd say. Or you can keep equiping them with gear they'd have no way of buying.

But yeah if they're hunting dinosaurs and have appropriate skills they can replace their armor with decent stuff. *shrug*

Once I have it in text in a book, I'll agree.

The simple fact is you are missing SEVERAL books, perhaps dozens. I have all of them save for the three or four most recent ones. Also, I directly quoted you orcs preferred weapons in Rifts according to Conversion Book 1. Third there's no telling where these orcs have been and can be most any man at arms OCC. Gunfighter, Gunslinger, Headhunter, Crazy and ANY type of Cyborg.

So their equipment isn't automatically cheap crappy stuff. If you want to generalize to that effect you need to stick to D&D.

[Noon]

If a person wants to farm they can do it in real life - why play a game to escape reality if all you're going to do is stuff you can do in a pot in your kitchen? I have no interest in a farming sim.

I've never smelted farming tools or made ethanol fuel (or built a dirtbike/dirt bike engine from home cast parts, which is another higher manufacturing level).

A: All of these escape my mundane reality and B: I don't know if or why people are assuming it somehow takes game time - win the battle and assuming some downtime in the fiction, in a mere sentence the GM declares they've finished manufacturing an item. My group often has opportunities for downtime.

Where and how are they manufacturing these items of yours? *snip*EDIT: And your system determines what the characters can even do and its based on a ranked table not their skills and the parts they have available. That also doesn't make sense to me.

So you balk and draw the 'doesn't make sense' card here? Not at orcs with weapons they could never afford?

Orcs who just get tens of thousands of credits gear out of thin air Vs tables which aren't perfectly synced with character skills, and also where to find a workshop?

Personally I balk more at the former. And all fiction doesn't make sense - if it really makes sense, you've ceased to treat it as fiction.

Tanning doesn't take much work, you can do it with the brains of the critter you just killed plus some very common chemicals - even urine can be successfully used as it's partially ammonia.

You can't see yourself as making an assumption on this. If you wanted to pitch it as 'Well, I like the idea they could tan dinosaur skins! How about that?', I'd listen to that as an encouragement for a certain way of playing.

But you're treating your assumption as just being the case. Book and page number?

Also, I directly quoted you orcs preferred weapons in Rifts according to Conversion Book 1.

This aught to seem ephemeral to you. Yes, they prefer those weapons. And what we prefer often pops out of the sky in front of us.

Third there's no telling where these orcs have been and can be most any man at arms OCC. Gunfighter, Gunslinger, Headhunter, Crazy and ANY type of Cyborg.

Because the orcs get to choose an OCC like a player does? And the equipment and bionics of it just pop out of the sky?

If that happens in your game, okay. It just seems rediculous to me. Which isn't to say other people can't have fun with it, but it wouldn't be fun for me.

People get what they can afford. If your game has a sort of massive middle class (and yet are still somehow bandits and raiders) who can afford all sorts of things. Okay.

In mine, most of the bandits are poor and lazy - if they could afford expensive armour and weapons, they wouldn't bother being bandits. They'd use the money to retire and booze it up every day. My bandits don't actually like being bandits. They don't exist to make the PC's look awesome. They just want to spend money on ale and whores and to live in safety.

If you want to generalize to that effect you need to stick to D&D

Ad hominem.

[Godogma]

Don't blame me for how Rifts is set up; I didn't determine all this I quoted the conversion book for Orc classes... Since that was the one example you directly referenced. Try cracking Lone Star or New West for how the Pecos Bandits are set up.

Yes, orcs get to choose a occupational character class. Orcs are a sentient race not a monster. Yes they are classified as monstrous D-bees but that doesn't mean they can't have one.

Your Rifts game and how things actually are in Rifts certainly seem to be on two different pages as far as gaming goes. I never said that players couldn't craft your motorcycle parts or whatnot else but to me, them making things they don't have skills for is definitely not something I'm going to accept in my games. If you like it more power to you. They'd have to hire an NPC operator who had the skills if it were me running the game if they wanted to make stuff they didn't have skills for.

Play how you enjoy playing, but I don't find your system appealing nor do I find it supported by the world at hand.

EDIT: If you need references for tanning I suggest you go to your local library, there are lots of books on it. I have one called Primitive Tanning I've used as a reference for primitive societies. Prices for dinosaur hides are located in the entries for various dinosaur species in the Dinosaur Swamp, and Adventures in the Dinosaur Swamp. AND Orcs begin on page 101 of Conversion Book 1 Revised and Expanded, and end on page 102.

[flatline]

You can fix all this by simply getting rid of MD/MDC. Suddenly a fight against primitive SDC critters isn't so one-sided.

--flatline

[Noon]

Yes, orcs get to choose a occupational character class.

Seriously? Tell me what in your game world, what force or thing (perhaps some kind of god or something?) allows orcs to choose their OCC? And why don't all of them choose glitter boy pilot?

Your Rifts game and how things actually are in Rifts

Could be the other way around and its your idea of Rifts which is askew - Kevin might have orcs that just end up as the class they can manage to get, rather than getting to choose their class. I'm betting he doesn't have alot of orc GB pilots (I play orcs dumb, but not so dumb that they wouldn't know GB pilot is a great OCC choice)

I never said that players couldn't craft your motorcycle parts or whatnot else but to me, them making things they don't have skills for is definitely not something I'm going to accept in my games.

The party doesn't have the skills? When did you read that?

Or you're saying only operators can make things?

Play how you enjoy playing, but I don't find your system appealing nor do I find it supported by the world at hand.

It doesn't fit your idea of the world.

EDIT: If you need references for tanning I suggest you go to your local library, there are lots of books on it. I have one called Primitive Tanning I've used as a reference for primitive societies.

I've nothing against someone bringing in material into their game. But you seem to think if you read it in a book, it's also a rule in the game. As if you just quoted a book and page number to me. It's pretty surprising.

Prices for dinosaur hides are located in the entries for various dinosaur species in the Dinosaur Swamp, and Adventures in the Dinosaur Swamp.

As I said, either which NPC has got the money to pay for these? I think people these days have been influenced by alot of video games who's vendors have bottomless pockets. And why are they paying for them - they are used for making armour? So buying urban warrior is pointless now? Or NPC vendors will just buy the hides at huge prices (enough to pay for dinosaur hunting repairs and more) for no real reason? Edit: Looking over a scribd version - yeah, it's as if some vendor will keep paying thousands for some of their skins, over and over as many times as you want. Well, I guess that makes complete sense, what's not to like.

Anyway, my adventures are unlikely to always somehow fit in dinosaur fights until they are repaired. Never mind not having the book (if you want to argue you can't just play with the main book and what you have, go ahead)

AND Orcs begin on page 101 of Conversion Book 1 Revised and Expanded, and end on page 102.

Yes, what they prefer to have is what they just get out of thin air, as you said before.

[MikelAmroni]

I think everyone's getting caught up on an off the cuff example. Replace orcs with psi-stalkers, tokanii, humans, or floopers.

And for the record, yes Orcs not only can have OCCs, they have to have them. They are a race, not a RCC to use the newer terminology. You can have Orc mercenary soldiers, orc pirates (using Sourcebook 4 or World Book 6), orc saloon bums, orc city rats, heck even orc glitter boy pilots and cyberknights if you're so inclined. This isn't Middle Earth, Warhammer, Greyhawk, or Dragonlance (focusing on worlds, not systems). Heck even the orcs in Palladium Fantasy can be utter bad butts (Orc Longbowmen rock, as do Orc thieves)

They have similar percentages to most folks though - so highly trained men at arms are the exception, not the rule. Vagabonds, Cowboys, common raiders, city rats, and wilderness scouts would be in the majority, probably led by a strong leader (who could have any number of powers).

[Godogma]

Kevin Siembieda is god of this game, everything runs through him. He is the diuretic seagull of the Palladium Multiverse. He set up Orcs the way they are. You don't like it? Tough. Its his world.

You can do things in your game your way, but on these forums people generally reply about how the books say things are not their own take on the Rifts universe.

Orcs have to have an OCC, whether you like it or not. Glitter Boy Pilot wasn't on the list of choices, but I'm sure someone has used an orc glitter boy pilot before.

I suggested a method of tanning, it came from a book whether you allow it or not isn't the issue. Would it work on dinosaurs? I doubt it. They have a brain the size of a walnut and way too much hide to go with it. Some method of tanning works on them and yes there are people who will TRADE you goods for dinosaur hides. In many cases no one in an area has or will accept credits, most of the economy of Rifts earth outside the megacities of the Coalition and a few other places works on trade of one item for another item or services.

You're the one getting overly defensive on the issue not me. (Edited statement to avoid being offensive).

You don't seem to take constructive criticism well; you throw out one or two items from a list of items, gradually inserting a couple more as you go along as if arguing with me is going to give you something and attacking my statements instead of providing data to support your own. News flash, all you're doing is making sure that I know how immature you are in relation to this issue.

I directly referenced books and even page numbers in most cases for my information all you're doing is arguing that you're right without any evidence to the fact. Good day.

EDIT: And I'm saying that Operators have the skill access to take the necessary skills to make items, not that they're the only ones who can make items. That OCC was included as an example.

[Noon]

Godogma, you tell me the PC's in my game don't have the skills to make the items I've mentioned. If you could atleast acknowledge atleast this one instance where you've treated your assumption as the actual case, I'll consider how I seem to come across to you. Otherwise if you can't acknowledge this one error - well, I'd like to think I'm not being immature, but I could consider the case that actually we are both being immature. If you can't humour that possibility, don't try the "I'm mature, you are not" card - particularly given how it sounds.

They have similar percentages to most folks though - so highly trained men at arms are the exception, not the rule.

Which is my point. In equipment as well. I'm not sure why an orc wilderness scout should just magically recieve 'MD weapon of choice'. It lines up with no particular fiction. The orc is born, grows, scavenges for what he can, scrapes a few credits together. He doesn't just get a particle beam rifle and plastic boy armour poofing into existance for him after living that sort of life. Sure when a player chooses a wilderness scout, the default is they get an MD weapon of choice.

I grant, folk out there might not care how exactly their enemy gets all the goodies they carry (goodies, yet not so good as to TPK the party). I didn't think to say at the start of this post 'if you don't care about that, then you wont care about this'.

[Godogma]

Godogma, you tell me the PC's in my game don't have the skills to make the items I've mentioned. If you could atleast acknowledge atleast this one instance where you've treated your assumption as the actual case, I'll consider how I seem to come across to you. Otherwise if you can't acknowledge this one error - well, I'd like to think I'm not being immature, but I could consider the case that actually we are both being immature. If you can't humour that possibility, don't try the "I'm mature, you are not" card - particularly given how it sounds.

They have similar percentages to most folks though - so highly trained men at arms are the exception, not the rule.

Which is my point. In equipment as well. I'm not sure why an orc wilderness scout should just magically recieve 'MD weapon of choice'. It lines up with no particular fiction. The orc is born, grows, scavenges for what he can, scrapes a few credits together. He doesn't just get a particle beam rifle and plastic boy armour poofing into existance for him after living that sort of life. Sure when a player chooses a wilderness scout, the default is they get an MD weapon of choice.

I grant, folk out there might not care how exactly their enemy gets all the goodies they carry (goodies, yet not so good as to TPK the party). I didn't think to say at the start of this post 'if you don't care about that, then you wont care about this'.

Frankly I never made an assumption they didn't; you listed off a section of classes and never once specified any skills your players have or don't have. You haven't provided anyone on this forum with enough information to give you any sort of informed opinion on that or the rest of your system. I made a deduction that they wouldn't have all the skills necessary to cover your entire chart based on the fact you need three or four skills just to cover the first one you listed.

For Example the Motorcycle Parts: Mechanical Engineer for designing the parts for the motorcycle, some method of gaining the metal for forging (Mining is another skill that works), whatever skill you're using to forge the metal and then you have to have automotive mechanics to install the part. Mechanical Engineer does cover constructing the parts... so if you take a penalty I guess you could use a primitive forge to make a motorcycle component.

You gave us a very brief summary and supplied three or four items on your list and that's all. Also you posted a character list some ways down - without tracking down each and every one of those classes and then checking all their available skills and also everything that falls under those skills and making a lot of guesswork I can't know any of the skills their player's chose beyond the skills they automatically start with.

So I go went with the idea that I have no idea what's on your chart, but that it's quite unlikely that they have all the necessary skills to A) smelt metal and make motorcycle parts out of it that actually work - since I own a motorcycle and they have very tight tolerances for the most part B) brew alcohol - specifically high enough octane to make fuel, and C) make grenades that won't blow up in their faces. As well as all the other items that are in between the various things you listed. So yes my deduction was that is "most likely they don't have all the necessary skills". Especially as they need to make skill choices that are actually good for adventuring and not just making stuff in their down time. Then again, I also don't know how big the chart is either so my deduction could be wrong.

As I don't know what's on your chart but you never said you were changing it per player character group I have very very little data to make any decisions on.

And no I don't care how orcs got their equipment, just like I don't care how the other sentient races got theirs in the game. The simple fact is the books are set up to be an MD environment, and they're sentient - they either bought, stole, or otherwise acquired it. For all I know they looted the battlefield after one of the fights between Tolkeen and the Coalition scrounging things left behind. Perhaps they made some of it. Maybe they're the ones making dinosaur hide armor and using MD bows and arrows and spears using dinosaur bones in the cases of their lower tech sorts until they can get better. But that's if I'm making an orcish society in North America - there are about a thousand or so orcs on the North American continent according to Conversion Book 1, with a lot of them being near the Calgary Rift and the rest of them being in the Southwest... Likely running with the Pecos Bandits in the case of the ones in the South West and with the monster nation with its demon ruler in Calgary. (No really solid information has been released on the area around the Calgary rift just yet as far as I know of).

If I cared on a case by case basis where everyone in the game got their equipment I'd never be able to run a single game because some people in the published works have stuff that I don't know where they got it but it doesn't seem to fit their location. Obviously they have it somehow, so why should I allow it to give me headaches? Perhaps Kevin will publish more on that character's background in a future book that will clear it up for me.

For an NPC I try and make sure the gear makes some sense; but I also don't find that orc raiders having MD gear doesn't make sense. They're expecting combat and surviving on Rifts earth so obviously they have MDC weapons and armor. Which conveniently enough are worth something to the players - if they take care of the orcs and don't completely screw it up. Then again, even MD scrap is worth something as are broken weapons. Technowizards like broken weapons to make TW weapons out of, and the MD armor if its metal and ceramics can be recycled and used to make new stuff. If it's MD leather and isn't in shape to be armor anymore you can always cut it in strips and use it to tie people up or something. Or to patch other MD leather, sure it won't look as good but its still useful.

I require that my PC's have reasonable gear for the timeline of game (105PA or 109PA etc) and their location on Rifts Earth and try to make sure that one player's choice doesn't completely overawe the other players. I know what the standard gear is for Coalition folks in a lot of spots, I know what standard gear most OCCs get and I know what it says about what they like to acquire for their use at higher levels and what amongst that they start with or don't start with in general so after they've been adventuring I can make some approximations and give them some of that to represent what they spent their money on.

[Hot Rod]

Sorry Moon, I just don't see your system working in RUE as I understand it. If a player has the skills you wouldn't need to have an artificial 'tech level' of resources they can access, they just use the skill when they have the materials wherever the material came from.

Orcs, also perhaps were a poor example as it is just a race, not an occupation (such as Bandit which seems to be what you meant). There can be Orc GB pilots, and if someone wants to entrust one with a couple million credit PA he'll probably be as loyal (or more) than any other human doing the same job. They are even mentioned as being close enough to human to be Juicers should they amass enough money. Of all the D-Bees they probably face the least prejudice from humans (and many can pass as human at a glance).

In my campaigns (IMC) the world does not revolve around the characters, but the players rely on me to set up challenging but not impossible encounters (including the possibility of avoiding one they can't possibly win). Sure the group of DB players could encounter a full CS patrol at first level. If they're clever and talk it out (or hide) instead of opening fire I might just have the person in charge be honest & sympathetic enough to give them a warning (or ignore them as the case may be).

Godogma, I don't try to balance the PCs other than limiting what books are available to the setting. (No Phase world in Rifts, but a displaced Russian, or Aborigine from Australia is fine, etc) Making sure they all get a chance to shine is my job, though I will not be sympathetic toward the wilderness stalker that never wants to leave town, or the City Rat that never wants to visit one...

HR

[azazel1024]

So...uh...the working assumption is all Orc simply have a hard scrabble life of farming or raiding? If they are raiding things...I'd think that life would be very, VERY short if they don't acquire effective weapons and armor first.

Not all Orcs are inheriantly evil or are raiders/bandits and they tend not to germinate from no where as adults in isolation.

How do humans grow up, acquire suitable weaponry and armor and go on to terrorize and raid people?

Same thing for Orcs.

Said Orc raiders probably coallesced over time. Orc gets bored of watching the south bound end of a north bound plow animal, joins local mercenary band, gets trained, earns some money, goes out and starts preying on the weak. Maybe is joined by a couple of racially compatible friends who happened to be part of the merc company.

Maybe a visiting CS patrol was bullying the local village, thinks they have it completely cowed and terroized, decide to "let down their hair" a little bit and some remove their armor, the rest have helmets off and a group of 30 "local toughs" rush them and club them to death and take their equipment, losing several of them in the process.

If you need a back story for every, little, single, thing. Okay, by all means do it.

Frankly, I know this sounds nasty, but it sounds like you don't have a lot of imgination if you can't come up with how a group of Orc bandits could POSSIBLY have MDC weapons and equipment or POSSIBLY be anything other than completely untrained savages.

Use your imagination a little bit and beyond that, not everything needs a complete back story. I doubt your players care why "Random badguy group A became bad guys" and how "they acquired all their gear".

[Noon]

If a player has the skills you wouldn't need to have an artificial 'tech level' of resources they can access, they just use the skill when they have the materials wherever the material came from.

The tech levels represent finding information on where to get more and perhaps better materials - some of that information coming from those traded to.

Depends on how you figure when such materials turn up.

I really didn't see the point of eyeballing it time and time again, when either my eyeballing over time would have a pattern (and if it doesn't have a pattern, then it's just random anyway).

So...uh...the working assumption is all

The assumption is not all.

how a group of Orc bandits could POSSIBLY have MDC weapons and equipment or POSSIBLY be anything other than completely untrained savages.

Isn't "can't POSSIBLY".

Frankly, I know this sounds nasty, but it sounds like you don't have a lot of imgination if you can't come up with...

To me your own imagination sounds fairly shallow - as long as the prop buildings don't wobble too much, you wont look behind them. Probably sounds nasty, but if you thought your intent was beneficial somehow, then this is said with the same intent.

Fact is, if say 10% of the population have MD lasers (as opposed to just MD grenades - but this is the sort of information left unread), doesn't it come off a little incongruous to you that 100% of the encounters with them have MD lasers to conveniently sell after defeating them?

I know it's attractive that things which are threats also == great sources of cash.

So much so it seems unimaginative to imagine a world where things aren't so convenient.

Can you describe your own play - do the PC's generally make more money from each fight (by selling looted weapons) than the combat cost them?

[Godogma]

Frankly, you're going to argue your position that only a certain very small percentage of the world has MD weapons when that just isn't the case. Most of the Coalition's manufacturing capability goes to feeding its war machine and every single one of those millions of soldiers is issued one weapon per each weapon proficiency and an average of 4 E-clips for each of them.

They switched to the new style weapons and Dead Boy armor before the end of Tolkeen and a lot of the old style weapons and armor wound up on the Black Market somehow or other. Lets see... 10% of the Coalition's entire population is in their army and that's just the Coalition's MD weapons and armor manufacturing and however it arrived on the open market for sale a good percentage of it did. (Coalition War Campaign tells us the figures for their army).

That's not counting Golden Age Weaponsmiths, Northern Gun, Wellington Industries, Iron Heart Armaments (before they were taken over by the Coalition), Wilks, Naruni, Triax and all the other weapons manufacturers who operate in the post Rifts US continent. (Rifts Mercenaries and Merc Ops include more information about these folks and Naruni Wave 2 gives info about their about their new weapons and armament.)

MD weapons and armor are extremely common, and quite easily acquired. Naruni will GIVE people weapons and armor that's better than 90% of Earth's to use against Coalition interests after they got run off the continent the first time and returned (or at least they have in some cases). They're also willing to cut quite reasonable deals - though when you start missing payments they'll enslave you. They've done that to entire worlds under terms like that.

You really need to buy and read more books to argue your position successfully and the 10% of the population is armed with an Energy weapon position can't be argued successfully to start with. Since MUCH MUCH more than 10% of the continental US is armed with an energy weapon - hell more than 10% of the continent's population is armed with 1 weapon per weapon proficiency and 4 e-clips for the same. (The Coalition is where most of humanity on the continent resides and 10% of their entire population is armed that way).

After that you have the rest of the population who is armed and equipped with MD weapons and armor, a whole lot of which are energy weapons.

[Noon]

(as opposed to just MD grenades - but this is the sort of information left unread)

I put that in because I expected yet again it wouldn't be read.

Is some kind of reading floor() function in place? I suggest the orcs have two or three 3D6 MD grenades (overall cost: 600 credits) rather than having a 1D6 MD laster pistol (gun cost: 6500 credits, clip cost: 5000, overall cost: 11,500 credits) and seemingly everyone rounds the difference down to zero MD weapons at all.

a.) The orcs found the carcasses of a party/group that had been killed by some predator that (might have) moved on. They picked up the mdc guns and use them. Perhaps they picked up some cred sticks from the carcasses and made them into trophy jewelry as "proof" they defeated the owners but have absolutely no clue there happen to be a lot of creds within.

As I'm seeing it the party will need income again and again in future. Each of your descriptions is fine the once, but doesn't it grate against your sense of credibility for it to happen again and again? I know players would go "What, more deserting orcs who don't understand the equipment they've taken? Really?" if you try it multiple times. That NPC parties, even after dozens of others died to some preditor, still go in ill equipped enough (or go in at all), and then orcs or such keep finding them without being killed themselves?

The event sounds like a statistical anomalie - so it's no good as a constant income. It doesn't sound like an anomalie to you, just it happens constantly? Okay, fair enough if you play your world that way.

This goes for b,c,d,e and f as well. That's six events - I'm pretty sure the players, for continued play, are going to need many more than that. Don't you get tired of making up 'just by chance' events where the orcs did this or that - if you keep making them up, it's not just by chance anymore?

Or do a,b,c,d, e and f not seem unusual events for you? And the PC's keep stumbling into lucky windfalls?

Sure it's easy to imagine the players getting lucky break after lucky break. I just don't like that much of a fantasy.

Anyway, feel free to make up a chart of them (perhaps a hundred, because you'll need more than six in a campaign (in a one shot game you might be fine) and you don't want the same ones to repeat too often). And in the end it'll just end up as 'loot levels' rather than tech levels. Your six examples are simply a loot level, really.

But, that doesn't mean it is silly for orcs to have mdc weapons or that it somehow throws out common sense in the name of "balanced encounters" to make things work for other methods to be used.

Well, ignoring for now how 'It's silly for 100% of orcs to ALL have thousands of credits worth of MD equipment' gets missread into 'it's silly to think orcs would have ANY MD equipment!' and such words being put into my mouth...

Your argument isn't about balance - it's about whether they A: get their money back from looting dead bandits or B: get their money back by manufacturing goods. Balance doesn't care which does it. Both work fine as they do the exact same thing.

In such a case, I find it contrived that over 95% of bandits would own a 3D6 MD 8000 credit ion pistol and a 5000 credit e-clip (13,000 credits total) rather than, because they are bandits, simply owning something like four 3D6 MD plasma grenades (800 credits total). Same damage output, so that's perfectly balanced. But no doubt the 95% will be read as 100%.

If your world is full of rich bandits...I can't type that without feeling the contradiction...okay then. What is the motivation of bandits in your game world? Why do they risk life and limb when they already have enough to retire in comfort?

[Godogma]

(as opposed to just MD grenades - but this is the sort of information left unread)

I put that in because I expected yet again it wouldn't be read.

Is some kind of reading floor() function in place? I suggest the orcs have two or three 3D6 MD grenades (overall cost: 600 credits) rather than having a 1D6 MD laster pistol (gun cost: 6500 credits, clip cost: 5000, overall cost: 11,500 credits) and seemingly everyone rounds the difference down to zero MD weapons at all.

a.) The orcs found the carcasses of a party/group that had been killed by some predator that (might have) moved on. They picked up the mdc guns and use them. Perhaps they picked up some cred sticks from the carcasses and made them into trophy jewelry as "proof" they defeated the owners but have absolutely no clue there happen to be a lot of creds within.

As I'm seeing it the party will need income again and again in future. Your description is fine for a once off, but it doesn't grate against your sense of credibility for it to happen again and again? That NPC parties, even after dozens of others died to some preditor, still go in ill equipped enough (or go in at all), and then orcs or such keep finding them without being killed themselves?

The event sounds like a statistical anomalie - so it's no good as a constant income. It doesn't sound like an anomalie to you, just it happens constantly? Okay, fair enough if you play your world that way.

This goes for b,c,d,e and f as well. That's five events - I'm pretty sure the players, for continued play, are going to need many more than that. Don't you get tired of making up 'just by chance' events where the orcs did this or that - if you keep making them up, it's not just by chance anymore?

Or do a,b,c,d, e and f not seem unusual events for you? And the PC's keep stumbling into lucky windfalls?

Anyway, feel free to make up a chart of them (perhaps a hundred). In the end it'll just end up as 'loot levels' rather than tech levels.

Frankly I ignore the bit about grenades just like you ignore everyone else who is directly quoting information from books that you disagree with. You can disagree with the published material from Kevin and the gang at Palladium Books all you want but that doesn't make you in any way correct.

I'm done with this topic; you refuse to post the needed information for us to accurately critique and help you with this system of yours and also you refuse to acknowledge the facts that we've posted which are listed in simple English in no uncertain terms in the books you're intent on ignoring wholesale because it doesn't fit your idea of the Rifts universe.

[Noon]

Good day.

Good day, Godogma.

[azazel1024]

Or, hey another point, want to know how people make money.

The same way they do today. Crap, look back to the 1600's Europe if you want to and the 30 years war. How did most men or arms make money then? They enlisted in an army, they joined a mercenary band, they formed their own, they were bandits, they were "adventurers" (another name for mercenaries in smaller than company size), etc.

How did they make money, either a semi-steady income being employed by a kindom, some kind of pay plus spoils if in a mercenary company, bandits would make it by raiding people and selling their things, adventurers might take on bandits or temporary employment as scouts for an army, join a mercenary company briefly, help defend small villages, etc. They'd get paid for their work or they'd take the spoil of war again.

Just like happens in Rifts. Either someone is paying you to do something (local village is paying you a few thousand credits, plus maybe a dozen head a of cows, a place to stay, food and the most basic of gear to take care of that Orc bandit problem...oh and bonus, those orc bandits happen to have a few low grade MD weapons and some armor and you manage to salvage some small part of it).

Frankly E-clip recharges are several times more expensive than they should be, and armor repair should probably be a little cheaper as well...which is what I play with. No need for your adventuring party to have to bring in a quarter million credits an adventure. Geting a couple of tens of thousands in loot (either they keep it as their own, or maybe they resell it for 15-30% to the local black market dealer), plus a bit of cold hard cash and some goods/services can work out just fine for "minor" adventures. Get a bigger adventure, maybe they take on a CS patrol. They aren't getting paid much, but HEY, they take out the patrol AND manage to wreck a couple of old style SAMAS. Sure, they are wrecked, but that doesn't mean they can still be salvaged...5% of a 1.9 million credit PA suit is still a fair amount of money.

Or bigger adventures, maybe they are being bank rolled by a merchant with a lot of dough that needs something done. 50,000 credits per character, cash over the barrel, plus a promise of e-clip recharges and armor repair should do just nicely, even if no loot is acquired.