The adventuring landscape and it's economy

[Noon]

I'm kind of imagining the rifts landscape as being around 80 to 90% wilderness.

Once you hit civilisation, either your in a slum around a city, or you fit into civilisation somehow (which most likely means you're not an aventurer, or not a freewheeling one, anyway). There is no work inside the city except conventional work - get up, do what a boss says, etc. Apart from crime, but this is rather like fitting into civilisation - if you don't fit into a crime organisation, then you'll be a petty player (or a dead one). Sure you could have a campaign of city rats working their way up in a crime organisation - but that hardly seems to be a common campaign type.

To me, it seems largely a landscape of struggling poor. And essentially the landscape you will adventure in the most.

So the question arises: How do you progress in such an environment?

Unless people want to pitch that most folk in rifts, farmers and such, actually do quite well for themselves?

[Bill]

How do non-adventurers get ahead? The same way that they do in real life; hard work, luck, connections, and a willingness to take risks.

[Noon]

I'm thinking as an adventurer, actually, how do you get ahead?

I guess the traditional set up is that you make a character and they get weapon of choice, armour of choice.

But I'm thinking, amongst all the poor, how, for example, does that wilderness scout get that laser rifle to begin with?

Even if you do services for the poor, they don't have alot to pay.

Sure, you can 'grind' that and that works. Grind for years. But if you wanted to play it out, how do you make play be play rather than just 'grinding'? Make this sort of thing, doing services for tiny pay, many times over, be part of adventuring?


Also, it's a bit off topic of me, but...

How do non-adventurers get ahead? The same way that they do in real life; hard work

This always implies that if you didn't get ahead, you didn't work hard. Which isn't a fair evaluation. In real life, anyway.

[MADMANMIKE]

Actually, I think that the number of people who become adventurers and quickly get killed would create a surplus of salvage equipment out there. This prospect is why I created the Salvage rules that were on the RIFTS Game Master Screen.

[Lt Gargoyle]

Actually, I think that the number of people who become adventurers and quickly get killed would create a surplus of salvage equipment out there. This prospect is why I created the Salvage rules that were on the RIFTS Game Master Screen.

that was a nice touch. and i agree with this idea as a good back ground story arc for begining PCs.

[Noon]

But at the very least, how do you pay for your armour repairs as a hero? Sure, maybe the local farmers hire you for half a dozen credits and warm meals to stand guard while they farm (and maybe there's no threat, just easy 'money'), but it'd take doing things like that for ages to pay for even one point of MDC repair?

Sometimes I've mulled over heavy wooden fortifications, atleast in regards to light MDC creatures (like raptors from the main book, who have 3D6 MDC). Bait them in towards the fortress, stab at them through a gap in the wood structure and as they demolish the wood structure, fall back through a swing door that closes and has another gap to stab through, till it dies or flees the area for awhile because of wounding.

Otherwise I dunno? Weld slices of SDC train track to your armour, for it to take some of the blow? Pretty dang heavy though...

[flatline]

Being able to get by without equipment is part of the appeal for playing magic/psychic/super powered/whatever characters.

--flatline

[Rallan]

Actually, I think that the number of people who become adventurers and quickly get killed would create a surplus of salvage equipment out there.

Have you seen the price of repairing armor and vehicles in the books? Starting your adventuring career by salvaging gear from the dead could end up costing more than just buying new equipment in the first place

Also, most farmers and rural types in Rifts get by on subsistence and barter, and most urban workers are making what, somewhere along the lines of five to fifteen thousand credits a year? It makes you wonder where all those dead adventurers got the gear you're salvaging in the first place, since a new energy rifle, some MDC body armor, and a part share in an MDC vehicle costs what they'd earn in a decade. It seems like the only people who can actually afford to buy, maintain, or repair adventuring gear are the people who are already so well off that they don't actually need to risk their lives trying to strike it rich as an adventurer.

[MADMANMIKE]

But at the very least, how do you pay for your armour repairs as a hero? Sure, maybe the local farmers hire you for half a dozen credits and warm meals to stand guard while they farm (and maybe there's no threat, just easy 'money'), but it'd take doing things like that for ages to pay for even one point of MDC repair?

The RIFTS Game Master Shields and Adventures package is only $11.50US on DriveThruRPG, and as I mentioned, has both Repair rates and Salvage rates listed on it. Depending on the type of armor you wear, 1 MDC will cost 550C to 700C to fix; glancing at the salvage chart, the sensor turret of a UAR-1 would cover the cost of repairing 1,200 MDC at the 700C per rate.

Adventuring has an economy all it's own, that's why the starting equipment usually includes "Black Market Items", i.e. something to trade. If you want to make it realistic, make them choose their targets according to value with salvage in mind. Heck, a good Juicer could probably steal the sensor turret off a UAR-1 without firing a shot...

I would like to see a market translation for the value of meat and hides for all of the monsters out there though.. you could put a bounty on supernatural predator hides or heads... Here ya go, get the Palladium Fantasy book of Monsters and Animals (I know, almost all of them are reprinted in Conversion Book 1), and translate the Value in Gold to credits. You'll probably want to multiply that gold by 10-100 for credit value, but it's an easy start.. and should give you an idea of bounty pricing for RIFTS native monsters and animals by comparison..

[Noon]

Being able to get by without equipment is part of the appeal for playing magic/psychic/super powered/whatever characters.

Well, for those who can get create some sort of MDC body armour or MDC shield to hide behind, I'd agree.

I'm wondering about introducing some sort of low level scroll creation spell that makes an armour of ithan scroll. Perhaps mystics often discover this scroll creating spell in their meditation. What'd be funny is if they need someone who can read and write and they dictate to them the words, in order to create the spell (assuming the mystic is illiterate). Otherwise their scrolls and the primitive marks they use to make them rarely work.

Also that'd make being able to read and write in the language the scrolls are made, a kind of power.

Anyway, I'm thinking a scroll that just gives a 10 MDC armour of ithan spell. My games start low in power.

It seems like the only people who can actually afford to buy, maintain, or repair adventuring gear are the people who are already so well off that they don't actually need to risk their lives trying to strike it rich as an adventurer.

You speak my exact concerns!

the sensor turret of a UAR-1 would cover the cost of repairing 1,200 MDC at the 700C per rate.

I'm skeptical of stealing from the military as 'a line of income'. Maybe for some reasons I don't know it to seal from them on a regular basis would work out. But I'm skeptical.

you could put a bounty on supernatural predator hides or heads

Bounty from whom? Who has the money, out in the wilderness and what are they using them for that it's worth anything?

I think if were just making up something, it'd be worth also making up what practical use the people who placed the bounty find in the objects. What do they get out of them? It'd certainly reflect on how much bounty they'd give per item.

How did people in the 1800's get rich? Gold strikes. Oil. Steel. Railroads. Land.

I think mostly the rich got richer on those things.

And I think your list is much like my guard work example - it's mostly small potatoes. Which sure, adds up over time. But for it to be an adventure, then your adventuring is going to revolve around this stuff alot, and not around stuff that does any MDC damage. Which, if you assume a fair number of even small supernatural threats (like raptors), is going to be interupted with an MDC threat at some point. Some sort of cheap MDC protection seems necessary (or I guess, distance...if you have a bunch of guys with uzi's firing explosive round bursts at a raptor for 1D4 MD, they might not need armour if they spotted it at a distance first because if they are lucky it'll never get to close the distance with them)

[flatline]

As long as you use MD in your game, there will always be a two-tier economy: those who have the means to buy and sell serious equipment and those who mostly just barter amongst themselves.

It's difficult for someone from the lower economy to purchase goods from the upper economy because in general, the people from the upper economy don't want the goods from the lower economy (for example, how many city folks are interested in buying livestock or furs?).

Adventurers deal with people from both tiers and so have both credits and trade-able goods/services. Since credits are in high demand to the lower economy, this usually means low economy merchants are very interested in getting credits from adventurers, but this is almost always a bad deal for the adventurers who would be better off bartering than just paying up front with credits since the conversion is almost strictly one way.

--flatline

[Mack]

I've been trying to hash out the cost/requirements of a TW item that can take the MDC from one item to repair another. So it can, for example, reduce that body armor of the dead boy you took out with a headshot and use it to repair your ATV.

Just use the spell Mend the Broken. Here's an example.

[Icefalcon]

For starting equipment, consider the land that most of these farmers who want to be adventurers grew up on. Maybe there are Pre-Rifts buildings nearby or even a ruined city (dangerous to be a farmer near there but hey), maybe there is the remnants of underground bunkers or any number of Pre-Rifts "mines" in which things could be found and traded for large dollar items. Take, for example, a Pre-Rifts book. This item would net enough money to buy a light MDC armor. Another would get a light MDC weapon. The character now has the things he would need to go out into the world as an 'novice' adventurer.

Another possibility would be a person signing on as an "apprentice" to the class he wishes to become. The "master" or "trainer" provides the equipment the character will need to start with. In return the "apprentice" travels with the teacher until he has reached the training necessary to become a 1st level character and go off on his own. Of course, while the "apprentice" is learning, he is earning money alongside the teacher and paying him back for the equipment he is provided.

Yet another possibility is that the adventurer is the child of an adventurer. Adventurers would have enough cash to outfit their kid before that kid ventures off into the world on their own wanderings.

[Rallan]

THe other alternative of course is to assume that everything that's ever been written in the books about the economy of Rifts is complete crap (because it is), and go with the rule of cool. Adventurers with mecha that cost tens of millions of credits in a world where virtually nobody can afford to pay them more than a few thousand credits for winning a battle? Robots with a five year life costing millions of credits that are supposedly sold to work in factories when most people work for less than ten thousand credits a year? The Coalition States having however many million SAMAS suits in storage? PFFFFFFFT! It's all completely ridiculous, and why should GMs be expected to make more sense than the writers did?

[flatline]

THe other alternative of course is to assume that everything that's ever been written in the books about the economy of Rifts is complete crap (because it is), and go with the rule of cool. Adventurers with mecha that cost tens of millions of credits in a world where virtually nobody can afford to pay them more than a few thousand credits for winning a battle? Robots with a five year life costing millions of credits that are supposedly sold to work in factories when most people work for less than ten thousand credits a year? The Coalition States having however many million SAMAS suits in storage? PFFFFFFFT! It's all completely ridiculous, and why should GMs be expected to make more sense than the writers did?

I'm cool with that if you're willing to put the work in to fill in all the details.

Personally, my inclination is to make the smallest change required to fix things so that I preserve the validity of as many published details as possible just so that I don't have to do the work to replace more than I need to.

YMMV.

--flatline

[glitterboy2098]

a note on bounties... very rarely do the people most effected by animals/bandits/criminals put out bounties on them. the bounties tend to be posted by groups affiliated with or desiring better relations with the groups being effected.

i would imagine that in the New West, bounties would be posted by groups like Silverado, the Colorado Baronies, the Apocalyptic Cavalry, Arzno... all as part of a way to try and render the frontier safer for the people those are trying to have good trade/political;military relations with.

i'd expect the CS to post bounties in places inside and outside their territory. inside so their people can be aware of who is considered an enemy, and outside because a little credit outlay is way easier than sending troops after them. and if it keeps the people away from centers of CS activity, all the better.

[Balabanto]

This is why adventurers are welcomed when they come to town. Because adventurers can make a small community rich in days. It isn't that these communities don't have resources, it's that they don't normally have the ability to collect money for using them. In Rifts, as in Dungeons and Dragons, adventurers CREATE economies.

[Lt Gargoyle]

This is why adventurers are welcomed when they come to town. Because adventurers can make a small community rich in days. It isn't that these communities don't have resources, it's that they don't normally have the ability to collect money for using them. In Rifts, as in Dungeons and Dragons, adventurers CREATE economies.

Well Put.

[Noon]

a note on bounties... very rarely do the people most effected by animals/bandits/criminals put out bounties on them. the bounties tend to be posted by groups affiliated with or desiring better relations with the groups being effected.

Where do these groups get the money from? Do they have farms they tax to pay for this wooing?

[Noon]

This is why adventurers are welcomed when they come to town. Because adventurers can make a small community rich in days. It isn't that these communities don't have resources, it's that they don't normally have the ability to collect money for using them. In Rifts, as in Dungeons and Dragons, adventurers CREATE economies.

Not especially - they drain one economy that inexplicably just sits on it's gold (ie, a dungeon). Which works okay in D&D because it costs practically nothing to heal HP over time.

[Killer Cyborg]

But I'm thinking, amongst all the poor, how, for example, does that wilderness scout get that laser rifle to begin with?

MD weapons are rare... but hardly unheard of.
It's not uncommon for most communities to have a handful of people with some form of MD gear, and that Wilderness Scout must be one of them.

How did he get it?
Maybe he inherited it.
Maybe he stole it.
Maybe he found it.
Maybe he saved up his money from fur-trading and bought it.
Maybe he traded food or other goods for it outright, from somebody who needed food more than an (or another) MD weapon.
Maybe he was given it when he became sheriff, or when he joined a militia.
Maybe he took it off of a monster he killed.
Maybe he took it off of a CS soldier or bandit that he killed.
Maybe he (or somebody he knows) built it from spare parts.
Maybe he woke up with it after a night of binge drinking, along with a traffic cone, and he still doesn't know why.

[Nightmask]

This is why adventurers are welcomed when they come to town. Because adventurers can make a small community rich in days. It isn't that these communities don't have resources, it's that they don't normally have the ability to collect money for using them. In Rifts, as in Dungeons and Dragons, adventurers CREATE economies.

Reminds me of an Order Of The Stick comic where someone runs into a town shouting that Adventurers are coming and for everyone to get ready. How do they get ready? They increase the price of everything into orbit and start offering all sorts of Adventurer items.

[sirkermittsg]

It is interesting to think about what has value and what does not. To an adventurer that does not cook, a hot meal can have a big value actually.

I personaly tend to choose to run a cyber doc or an operator. I always have skills to fix things, and I have income available to me pretty much all the time. Likewise I try to always have some skills applicable to salvage operations. every time I shoot some one and kill them, their gun and any thing else I can get, is going to get sold.

That old truck out back, might not be MDC, but if you got wheels, you got mobility. Gasoline for a vehicle or energy to recharge a weapon on the surface may not seem like much....but it could mean the difference between you getting to the next town...and not.

[Lt Gargoyle]

I do not mind letting PCs find the juciy piece of hardware. it is often how they repair or upgrade their own. I do not stress on the non adventuring NPCs they may not be rich. but when you run into town with a pc who is wounded and they need a doctor, the adventure has a begining. Heck you can use this for the next adventure.

its gonna be up to each individual GM to decide, however if he wants his/her players they are gonna have to compermise. I do feel any thing past a village is gonna have a small milita of MDC armed protectors. They even patrol the farmlands that feed the town. Sorry in a world of so much MDC in it from wandering mosters to bandits. Yes not everything is MDC but there is a common theme around them in the books.
So yes A large nation or even a mid size town may use some of their good and services (I'll call it tribute/taxes) to pay for merc's to find those bandits causing thier trade routes to stop flowing. Why would they do this instead of going out themselves? because if they send out the PCs, its thier stuff getting shreaded. Thier missiles getting used, and its is they who are killed not thier friends and family in the milita. the PCs are disposable adventures. And they are a dime a dozen.

If you feel you need to role play every aspect of ones economy then go for it. Its not a nessary thing to explain, like many things in this world we play in. just take it as it is in the books. and let those NPCs deal with it on thier own, I promise 99% of the PCs will not worry about it after they are paid.

[Rallan]

But I'm thinking, amongst all the poor, how, for example, does that wilderness scout get that laser rifle to begin with?

MD weapons are rare... but hardly unheard of.
It's not uncommon for most communities to have a handful of people with some form of MD gear, and that Wilderness Scout must be one of them.

How did he get it?
Maybe he inherited it.
Maybe he stole it.
Maybe he found it.
Maybe he saved up his money from fur-trading and bought it.
Maybe he traded food or other goods for it outright, from somebody who needed food more than an (or another) MD weapon.
Maybe he was given it when he became sheriff, or when he joined a militia.
Maybe he took it off of a monster he killed.
Maybe he took it off of a CS soldier or bandit that he killed.
Maybe he (or somebody he knows) built it from spare parts.
Maybe he woke up with it after a night of binge drinking, along with a traffic cone, and he still doesn't know why.

Maybe he's born with it.
Maybe it's Maybeline!

[Killer Cyborg]

But I'm thinking, amongst all the poor, how, for example, does that wilderness scout get that laser rifle to begin with?

MD weapons are rare... but hardly unheard of.
It's not uncommon for most communities to have a handful of people with some form of MD gear, and that Wilderness Scout must be one of them.

How did he get it?
Maybe he inherited it.
Maybe he stole it.
Maybe he found it.
Maybe he saved up his money from fur-trading and bought it.
Maybe he traded food or other goods for it outright, from somebody who needed food more than an (or another) MD weapon.
Maybe he was given it when he became sheriff, or when he joined a militia.
Maybe he took it off of a monster he killed.
Maybe he took it off of a CS soldier or bandit that he killed.
Maybe he (or somebody he knows) built it from spare parts.
Maybe he woke up with it after a night of binge drinking, along with a traffic cone, and he still doesn't know why.

Maybe he's born with it.
Maybe it's Maybeline!

Hm.
I'd come up with some butt-kicking MDC Maybeline products, if it wouldn't go against the anti-conversion rule...

[MADMANMIKE]

Noon, I've been scratching my head as I read your posts here that seem to dismiss a large number of the suggestions people have given you, and I think I've figured out the problem. You seem to think that the only 'wealthy' civilizations are the ones that have already been detailed in the books.

Palladium has always deliberately left finer details up to the GM. It was implied in first edition RIFTS that communities of ALL levels of technology and wealth exist in the 'wastelands'. The fact that they haven't been placed on a map a detailed is so that Game Masters can put what they want where they want with impunity.

I've noticed an inability on the part of most players and GMs to grasp the scale of distance in the RIFTS world, especially in regards to travel through wilderness. This is because we measure travel time by our own experience driving cars on well made roads at upwards of 60 miles per hour. In the RIFTS world (as with any wilderness setting), even with vehicles that list top speeds in the hundreds of miles per hour, you aren't going anywhere fast. What this means is substantial communities, which in this setting are by default necessity self-reliant, can be relatively close to each other and still have no contact. The presence of monsters and aliens of all nature makes exploration very limited.

So let's look at a small kingdom. Kingdoms are likely as in a post-apocalyptic setting, people are likely to default to the might makes right mentality, and this lends itself naturally to a lords and vassals situation. By this time it's probable that the vassals in any given kingdom are relatively well off, i.e. not oppressed, because the outside forces that a community is likely to face here are going to create unity, and that makes petty disputes less important.

So you have a kingdom in the wilderness. For the people to survive and propagate (the biological imperative), it needs to be self-sustaining with room for growth. So naturally it will have farms, markets and probably some other resources like mines, or in the case of RIFTS some reclaimed tech of some sort. In the early years of any apocalypse, nomadic behavior is the best way to survive, so a substantial community is only going to thrive if they have some resource that makes them stay and build defenses; a rediscovered factory that cans fish, a rubber processing facility that can be used to make shoes, etc.

So your kingdom is going to have jobs for it's citizens, and resources to keep them alive, well and happy in order to survive. This can all be accomplished without trade and thus without roads to the next piece of civilization, which could be only a few miles away and focused on the same self-preservation. Still, until someone with the guts to wander off into the nothing that is alien monster infested wilderness, how will they know?

Enter adventurers. Sure, the first ones are likely to be from places like Chi-Town, Kingsdale, Tolkeen, etc; those are highly advanced and successful communities where people will be confident enough to make the attempts. I'm sure that the Black Market has a network of explorers that comb the wilderness looking for kingdoms like I suggest for the purpose of trade and/or domination. Are they going to share this information? Not likely as it's a cornered market...

So instead of worrying that the game as it stands has a logic hole in it ("where is the money coming from?"), fill the hole. Open The RIFTS Adventure Guide to page 110 and build a community to base your adventurers in and have fun.

[kaid]

Actually, I think that the number of people who become adventurers and quickly get killed would create a surplus of salvage equipment out there. This prospect is why I created the Salvage rules that were on the RIFTS Game Master Screen.

One plus thing about the extreme durability of MDC items is that they can survive bad conditions for a long long time so any items that are lost or stored somewhere will last an incredibly long time. Looting from the past seems like it is still pretty common in rifts earth. Look at glitter boys the majority of GB players are using ancient armor that has either been repaired thousands of times or stuff that was found in some NEMA storage facility that gets unearthed.

Most MDC weapons can be handed down for many generations with only moderate care and still stay potent.

[Noon]

By this time it's probable that the vassals in any given kingdom are relatively well off, i.e. not oppressed, because the outside forces that a community is likely to face here are going to create unity, and that makes petty disputes less important.

England seemed to be invaded every five minutes and they oppressed their people.

Maybe I should have asked for pessimistic suggestions to begin with, rather than optimistic ones. I didn't think to do so, I grant.

Anyway, another idea I'm chewing over is players being able to build old style armour for about 700 credits (or roleplaying out scrounging materials) that has 280 SDC and 17 AR. And also a house rule for some smaller attacks that if you dodge, even if you fail to dodge it still hits the armour and only does 1 MD (which strikes me as a bit more swollowable than rifts Australia "ignore AR if it's an MD attack" rules/suggestion/thing. But granted, it's still a house rule).

[MADMANMIKE]

By this time it's probable that the vassals in any given kingdom are relatively well off, i.e. not oppressed, because the outside forces that a community is likely to face here are going to create unity, and that makes petty disputes less important.

England seemed to be invaded every five minutes and they oppressed their people.

Maybe I should have asked for pessimistic suggestions to begin with, rather than optimistic ones. I didn't think to do so, I grant.

I can't even begin to understand this response.. There's nothing pessimistic about suggesting you try using the material as written...

And to compare an apocalyptic monarchistic dictatorship to ancient England... No, I've got nothing...

[Noon]

I can't even begin to understand this response.. There's nothing pessimistic about suggesting you try using the material as written...

Perhaps you could give the book and page number for the following, as I'm not sure why "It was implied in first edition RIFTS that communities of ALL levels of technology and wealth exist in the 'wastelands'" favours your imagining of things more so than my imagining? It'd seem to cover both imaginings, not just one (yours)? It's just the sort of 'well off vassals' kingdoms comprise a significantly larger demographic in your imagining than they do in mine. It's a bit like Tolkien Vs George R. R. Martin. Perhaps there's some text in the books that says it's more along the spectrum towards the former than the latter?

And to compare an apocalyptic monarchistic dictatorship to ancient England... No, I've got nothing...

What real life comparison do you make? If were talking comparisons, then it's speculation on both our parts - it'd be better to acknowledge that write as if you know I've made a mistake. Unless you don't think you speculate on the matter?

[azazel1024]

I'm thinking as an adventurer, actually, how do you get ahead?

I guess the traditional set up is that you make a character and they get weapon of choice, armour of choice.

But I'm thinking, amongst all the poor, how, for example, does that wilderness scout get that laser rifle to begin with?

Even if you do services for the poor, they don't have alot to pay.

Sure, you can 'grind' that and that works. Grind for years. But if you wanted to play it out, how do you make play be play rather than just 'grinding'? Make this sort of thing, doing services for tiny pay, many times over, be part of adventuring?


Also, it's a bit off topic of me, but...

How do non-adventurers get ahead? The same way that they do in real life; hard work

This always implies that if you didn't get ahead, you didn't work hard. Which isn't a fair evaluation. In real life, anyway.

How'd you do it in real life? Likely that wilderness scout might have been part of a mercenary company for a little bit or some kingdom's armed forces. They might have joined the local town militia or maybe they just worked real hard from a young age to afford it.

Yes, most places aren't terribly well off, but even still, there is a reasonable amount of local trade that goes on at least and the black market and legitimate dealers have plenty of connections and traveling markets. Its not outside the realm of believability that a small town could afford to equip a local sheriff and a couple of deputies or that one or two mercenaries or adventurers might retire to some small town. Now if we are talking a hamlet of a couple of houses and farms, no, none of them might have any MD weapons/armor. A town of a couple of hundred people likely would have at least one or two people with an MD weapon or some armor.

Some cheap armor, a laser rifle and a couple of e-clips is expensive, but we are still talking maybe only the wages of your average laborer for a couple of years.

Something else to keep in mind, there are dozens of small kingdoms scattered across North America. Even if a town isn't inside one of them, they might trade with it. There is plenty of technology left over or access to some of it. Even if the general infrastructure and level of technology might be, say, 18th century, that doesn't mean a town or farm doesn't have a couple of peices of 20th or 21st century tech. That farm might have a hand pumped well, or maybe a windmill powered well, but it might still have a diesel or electric powered combine harvester and the local community might have a truck or two to deliver the agricultural products.

Modern day farmers tend not to be super rich, but that said, if they have a good harvest and their product has some modest level of demand, a farmer might well take in a couple of hundred THOUSAND dollars from their crop (possibly in to the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars). Granted, one of those 100 acres farms might also cost HUNDREDS of thousands of dollars to operate, which might well be true in the Rifts setting. That said, when you are talking a modest sized farm, it might be owned by a family, with a dozen or two dozen farm hands (and a big passel of the owners' kids) working it and it might cost tens to hundreds of thousands of credits to operate and even if a lot of it is low tech, it might still be a farm operation of several dozen acres or even hundreds of acres (especially if it is a livestock farm). The countryside isn't so barren that they'll never sell their goods. They might just have to truck them a hundred miles to the nearby kindom's industrial city or something. Maybe they are 150 miles up river from Merctown or 80 miles from Kingsdale, etc, etc. They haul their products at harvest time and they'll likely have buyers (or they might have buyers already setup).

A modestly successful farm probably wouldn't have any serious problems being able to fund the farm owner and one or two of his/her farm hands or family members a suit of basic light/medium armor, a laser rifle and a couple of e-clips, just to make any bandits think twice about raiding their farm, or to take on some basic local supernatural predators.

There will of course be some small subsitance farms and communities around North America, but they are probably going to be a bit more the exception than the rule (IE that they exist merely on subsitance without any trade, industry, etc). Most aren't going to be huge communities that are rich, but just because they are small doesn't mean that the folks in the community have no means.

[Noon]

Some cheap armor, a laser rifle and a couple of e-clips is expensive, but we are still talking maybe only the wages of your average laborer for a couple of years.

Something like 40 thousand credits over two years? I guess we'll skip the labourer having any expenses to pay (we'll say the farm houses and feeds him).

Even today, people tend to be mercenary about what they pay - always looking for the cheaper food.

I guess it's a question of how much land a labourer can work on per day, Vs how much that land will return in sold goods. And the labourer is going to get a fraction of that, since the farmer has his expenses and his own (more significant, you'd think) slice of the profits to take.

Of course, maybe if they are poppy farmers...