How would topple the Coalition?

[flatline]

How many magic pigeons would it take to collapse the roof of Chi-town?

--flatline

[Mech-Viper Prime]

How many magic pigeons would it take to collapse the roof of Chi-town?

--flatline

Don't know. Is there a roof on chi-town?

[Killer Cyborg]

How many magic pigeons would it take to collapse the roof of Chi-town?

--flatline

X.

[Killer Cyborg]

Huh, a military O.C.C that comes with no military skills, funny that. Looks like they have to choose their Military skills from their O.C.C related like the Temporal Warrior.

What you have established is that Military OCCs do not necessarily have Military skills.
What you have not established is that the Temporal Warrior/Raider/whatever is a Military OCC.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Congratulations you've just moved onto the ignore list permanently; you compare apples to oranges constantly and cannot provide well reasoned intelligent discourse on the topics being posted.

You want to generalize everything to make it fit your cozy pro-coalition world view or if it doesn't you denigrate it.

I tire of you. Good day sir, I wish you luck in your future endeavors.

no you keep trying to say the grape is a peanut

but lets look at the occ skill,

page 70
prowl, pick lock, land nav, wildnerness survival,swimming, climbing, sniper, two ancient wp, four wp of choice,math basic, martial art or assassin hth

lets look at them under RMB
Prowl (physical)
pick lock( espionage or rogue)
land nav ( wilderness)
wilderness survival (Espionage)
swimming (physical )
climbing (physical)
sniper (espionage)
and nowhere is mention this amazing claim of military training that you say they have.

but i notice you do like throwing the that coalition thing around, well if you feel you must please do.

Same page, OCC related skills, Military:Any+10%.
CS Military Specialist only comes with HtH Expert and only two W.Ps(no HtH ones) and no military skills. If you want to go by your reasoning:
Radio:Basic(communication)
Literacy(technical)
Computer Operation(technical)
Intelligence(espionage)
Pilot:Hovercraft(piloting)
Robot Combat Elite(piloting)
Read Sensory Equipment(pilot related)
Weapon Systems(pilot related)
Running(physical)
W.P Energy Pistol(weapon proficiency)
W.P Energy Rifle(weapon proficiency)
Huh, a military O.C.C that comes with no military skills, funny that. Looks like they have to choose their Military skills from their O.C.C related like the Temporal Warrior.

formal military training, while the Coalition Military Specialist is part of the coalition military OCCs, the temporal warrior is however not part of any military or government but more a student to his master.

[Nightmask]

Given the Coalition works like Nazi Germany with 'turn in your neighbor' style McCarthyism a good way to topple them is just to simply bring into doubt the true nature of those they're following and trusting. Much like ARCHIE-3's fake skelebots could render the real ones untrusted and end up getting them sidelined causing people to doubt could cause massive instability that could make things all fall apart. Get each member of the CS to distrust the other, cause them to break apart much like Free Quebec, it found itself unable to trust its ally and pulled away.

[Killer Cyborg]

Huh, a military O.C.C that comes with no military skills, funny that. Looks like they have to choose their Military skills from their O.C.C related like the Temporal Warrior.

What you have established is that Military OCCs do not necessarily have Military skills.
What you have not established is that the Temporal Warrior/Raider/whatever is a Military OCC.

Actually what I was establishing is that military O.C.Cs cannot be determined by what skills they come with, for if that were the case the Coalition Military Specialist would not be one, neither would the Coalition Grunt or the Coalition Elite RPA.

Seems pretty much the same as I said.

[Killer Cyborg]

No idea why we're talking about this, but Special Forces are military, and have military training.
Any OCC that lacks formal military training couldn't be rightfully considered to be "Special Forces," whatever their skills, just like not any group of guys on horseback could rightfully be considered "Cavalry."

Rifts Canada, page 86, Tundra Ranger Calvary. "The Tundra Rangers' Mounted Division is predominantly nonhumans and includes Simvan, Psi-Stalkers, Ixion Centaurs, ordinary Centaurs and others with a love and aptitude for riding."

The Tundra Rangers Mounted Division includes a lot of beings with a love of riding.
This does not mean that just any being that has a love of riding is a Tundra Ranger Mountie.
That's why the page you refer to describes a specific Tundra Ranger Cavalry OCC; it's a specific OCC, not just a love of horses and an ability to ride one.
And it's why that description states, "All enjoy the same basic training as the other Rangers."

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm not going to argue with you that the Temporal Raiders/Warriors/Wizards are not apart of any official military, however their training meets the definition of a Commando.

A Commando is "A soldier specially trained to carry out raids."
If they're not soldiers, they're not Commandos.

[sirkermittsg]

I person I know got a group of mages together and they effectively Nuked New Chilachothe. Through a series of spells they got a Rune dagger up to the speed of light and then released it above the city. loss of an entire city was very demoralizing to the coalition to say the least.

[Nightmask]

Given the Coalition works like Nazi Germany with 'turn in your neighbor' style McCarthyism a good way to topple them is just to simply bring into doubt the true nature of those they're following and trusting. Much like ARCHIE-3's fake skelebots could render the real ones untrusted and end up getting them sidelined causing people to doubt could cause massive instability that could make things all fall apart. Get each member of the CS to distrust the other, cause them to break apart much like Free Quebec, it found itself unable to trust its ally and pulled away.

True, but that tactic is more difficult to accomplish with a small(1-10) person team. Maybe a whole team of Auto-Gs or Changelings, but still difficult with the Coalitions supply of Psychics, Dog Boys, and Psi-Stalkers, like the ISS NTSET and Psi-Net. It probably could be accomplished easier if you made sure to stay away from the big wigs, it would be much more obvious that you were an imposter. Creating dissension by going after colonels, majors, sergeants and having them do atrocities, terrorism or be "caught" with undesirables. It would be a very long term attack though, could take decades.

One rarely topples an evil empire quickly, oftentimes it's a result of years or decades of effort to break down the cohesiveness of those who enforce the tyranny and raise up the sheeple to stop being passive supporters of evil because they place comfort and safety over good even when they've given up such a right to that in sacrificing others for it.

[Nightmask]

I'm not going to argue with you that the Temporal Raiders/Warriors/Wizards are not apart of any official military, however their training meets the definition of a Commando.

A Commando is "A soldier specially trained to carry out raids."
If they're not soldiers, they're not Commandos.

Really? The first commandos weren't. They were farmers.

Looks to be faulty reasoning in general. If you retired and weren't a soldier anymore you'd somehow no longer constitute a commando by that reasoning since you aren't a soldier anymore for example. Not that this isn't anything but a smoke screen to both get way off topic arguing semantics and distract from considering how successful the use of a Temporal Warrior, Wizard, or Raider would be as part of a specialized team to bring down the Coalition.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

formal military training, while the Coalition Military Specialist is part of the coalition military OCCs, the temporal warrior is however not part of any military or government but more a student to his master.

Like a new recruit to a Drill Sargent. Or like sailor going through SEAL training. Skills usually are learned from a master. I'm not going to argue with you that the Temporal Raiders/Warriors/Wizards are not apart of any official military, however their training meets the definition of a Commando. They train in assault(even power armor), theft and raiding. They have magic abilities that allow them to be better in these tasks then just about anyone else. The goal is always the accumulation of wealth, but they are also mercenaries who are quite willing to work with others for profit. There are countless Special Forces trained mercenaries out there, in fact since they are not affiliated with a nations military, there really is no difference between mercenary Special Forces and Temporal Warriors.

no like a recuit or sailor you learned thru a series of instructors and standard training , much like Special Force trained mercenaries still there is a standard training program in place, something temporal warrior dont have, its what they master wants and not some standard training program.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I'm not going to argue with you that the Temporal Raiders/Warriors/Wizards are not apart of any official military, however their training meets the definition of a Commando.

A Commando is "A soldier specially trained to carry out raids."
If they're not soldiers, they're not Commandos.

Really? The first commandos weren't. They were farmers.

Looks to be faulty reasoning in general. If you retired and weren't a soldier anymore you'd somehow no longer constitute a commando by that reasoning since you aren't a soldier anymore for example. Not that this isn't anything but a smoke screen to both get way off topic arguing semantics and distract from considering how successful the use of a Temporal Warrior, Wizard, or Raider would be as part of a specialized team to bring down the Coalition.

no its about a group calling them something they are not, much like me reading a dentist book and then calling myself a dentist, would you like to be my first patient or victim?
As for them being part of a specialized group to bring down the coalition government, they could be if they dont get distracted by all the pretty things along the way, they are not elite soldiers they are dimensional thieves who specialty is smash and grabs jobs, normally places like atlantis marketplace and such.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

No idea why we're talking about this, but Special Forces are military, and have military training.
Any OCC that lacks formal military training couldn't be rightfully considered to be "Special Forces," whatever their skills, just like not any group of guys on horseback could rightfully be considered "Cavalry."

Rifts Canada, page 86, Tundra Ranger Calvary. "The Tundra Rangers' Mounted Division is predominantly nonhumans and includes Simvan, Psi-Stalkers, Ixion Centaurs, ordinary Centaurs and others with a love and aptitude for riding."

The Tundra Rangers Mounted Division includes a lot of beings with a love of riding.
This does not mean that just any being that has a love of riding is a Tundra Ranger Mountie.
That's why the page you refer to describes a specific Tundra Ranger Cavalry OCC; it's a specific OCC, not just a love of horses and an ability to ride one.
And it's why that description states, "All enjoy the same basic training as the other Rangers."

Excellent, except the Tundra Rangers aren't a military force, they are an "equivalent of the lawmen and gunfighters of the old(and new) West", and are the decedents of the RCMP, a "para-military police force".

"All enjoy the same basic training as the other Rangers."

formal training,
which means a set standard of training, vs what ever the Temporal Raider wants to do today

[Killer Cyborg]

No idea why we're talking about this, but Special Forces are military, and have military training.
Any OCC that lacks formal military training couldn't be rightfully considered to be "Special Forces," whatever their skills, just like not any group of guys on horseback could rightfully be considered "Cavalry."

Rifts Canada, page 86, Tundra Ranger Calvary. "The Tundra Rangers' Mounted Division is predominantly nonhumans and includes Simvan, Psi-Stalkers, Ixion Centaurs, ordinary Centaurs and others with a love and aptitude for riding."

The Tundra Rangers Mounted Division includes a lot of beings with a love of riding.
This does not mean that just any being that has a love of riding is a Tundra Ranger Mountie.
That's why the page you refer to describes a specific Tundra Ranger Cavalry OCC; it's a specific OCC, not just a love of horses and an ability to ride one.
And it's why that description states, "All enjoy the same basic training as the other Rangers."

Excellent, except the Tundra Rangers aren't a military force, they are an "equivalent of the lawmen and gunfighters of the old(and new) West", and are the decedents of the RCMP, a "para-military police force".

They are the decedents of the RCMP and the soldiers of a military base.
They are "molded to the tune of pre-Rifts basic training procedures."
They are "instructed in military etiquette, procedure... classic tactical training and countermeasures."
"Most Tundra Rangers are high-tech soldiers."
"The typical Tundra Ranger is a dedicated soldier and lawman."
"The Tundra Ranger Scout is more than JUST a soldier."

And "Cavalry" are "Soldiers who fought on horseback."
IF they're not soldiers, they're not cavalry.
Therefore, IF they're cavalry, then they are necessarily soldiers.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

A set standard of training does not make you part of a military. Look at Cyber-Knights. Temporal Warriors have a set standard of training, if they didn't they would not come with a set of O.C.C skills(like most O.C.Cs), they would be like the Vagabond or the Rogue Scholar. .

still doesnt make them special forces or commandos, just hit and run specialists aka smash and grab

[Mech-Viper Prime]

They are the decedents of the RCMP and the soldiers of a military base.
They are "molded to the tune of pre-Rifts basic training procedures."
They are "instructed in military etiquette, procedure... classic tactical training and countermeasures."
"Most Tundra Rangers are high-tech soldiers."
"The typical Tundra Ranger is a dedicated soldier and lawman."
"The Tundra Ranger Scout is more than JUST a soldier."

And "Cavalry" are "Soldiers who fought on horseback."
IF they're not soldiers, they're not cavalry.
Therefore, IF they're cavalry, then they are necessarily soldiers.

You do realize what RCMP stands for right? You keep missing the police part of it. Just because cops use AR-15s, body armor and APCs doesn't make them the military. The book states they are the equivalent of Cyber-Knights, not quite a military force there. A Justice Ranger(or a Headhunter) has similar equipment to a Tundra Ranger. How exactly are they a military if they are not apart of any government? Bandito Arms has access to a military base, doesn't make them a military either. They are typically found in alone, in pairs or small groups, not battalions. They are required to check in every two months, any other military would call that AWOL for a grunt. They sometimes have to supply their own equipment. It is rare that two groups of Tundra Rangers are found on any assignment.
So they are found alone or in pairs(partners) like police.
They have "ranks" like Sergeant or Captain like police.
They have standard uniform and equipment like police(most of which is inferior to things that can be purchased privately).
They are expected to provide some of their own equipment on assignment if the department can't like police.
They have a headquarters like police.
They rarely move in large groups like police.
They conquer no territory, only go around preserving justice according to a code of law, like police.
You may believe they are a military, but personally I'm having a hard time seeing how.

cool facts
fyi the tundra ranger encompassing both RCMP and military styled Commando.

tundra rangers were founded both by RCMP and military forces.

[Killer Cyborg]

They are the decedents of the RCMP and the soldiers of a military base.
They are "molded to the tune of pre-Rifts basic training procedures."
They are "instructed in military etiquette, procedure... classic tactical training and countermeasures."
"Most Tundra Rangers are high-tech soldiers."
"The typical Tundra Ranger is a dedicated soldier and lawman."
"The Tundra Ranger Scout is more than JUST a soldier."

And "Cavalry" are "Soldiers who fought on horseback."
IF they're not soldiers, they're not cavalry.
Therefore, IF they're cavalry, then they are necessarily soldiers.

You do realize what RCMP stands for right?

Of course.
But "X is derived from Y" is not the same as "X = Y."
The Tundra Rangers came from the RCMP and a batch of soldiers, but they are neither the old Canadian Military nor are they the RCMP; they're something in-between.
Something that the books describe as both police AND as soldiers.
The first does not negate the second.
The fact that they are police does not negate the fact that they are soldiers.

I've quoted the books stating repeatedly that they are soldiers, that they have military training.
I can provide the page numbers, if you have trouble verifying that these quotes are legitimate.
If you do not have any trouble verifying that these quotes are legitimate, that leaves me at a loss as to your confusion.
The books state that the Tundra Rangers are soldiers, with military training.
The definition of "Cavalry" requires for any Cavalry to be soldiers.

Where is the room for doubt in your mind that the Tundra Cavalry are soldiers with military training?

[Killer Cyborg]

You don't like them because they don't fit your narrow personal view of what special forces are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces

Special forces, or special operations forces are terms used to describe highly-trained military units trained to perform unconventional, often high-risk missions.

That's not a narrow definition, and it's not a personal definition.
If you don't like it, you can try official dictionaries, but those mostly seem to specify "...US military forces..."

[Godogma]

You don't like them because they don't fit your narrow personal view of what special forces are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces

Special forces, or special operations forces are terms used to describe highly-trained military units trained to perform unconventional, often high-risk missions.

That's not a narrow definition, and it's not a personal definition.
If you don't like it, you can try official dictionaries, but those mostly seem to specify "...US military forces..."

Yes, but in most of the Rifts universe military forces don't belong to a kingdom they're mercenaries... aka private soldiers. It doesn't matter where they got the training, the fact is they make their living fighting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldier

A soldier is one who fights as part of an organized land-based armed force;[1] if that force is for hire the person is generally termed a mercenary soldier, or mercenary.[2]

Hell the root word for soldier basically means "one who fights for pay".

The word soldier entered modern English in the 14th century, from the equivalent Middle English word soudeour, from Anglo-French soudeer or soudeour, meaning mercenary, from soudee, meaning shilling's worth or wage, from sou or soud, shilling. The word is also related to the Medieval Latin soldarius, meaning soldier (literally, "one having pay"). These words were ultimately derived from the Late Latin word solidus, referring to an Ancient Roman coin used in the Byzantine Empire.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

A set standard of training does not make you part of a military. Look at Cyber-Knights. Temporal Warriors have a set standard of training, if they didn't they would not come with a set of O.C.C skills(like most O.C.Cs), they would be like the Vagabond or the Rogue Scholar. .

still doesnt make them special forces or commandos, just hit and run specialists aka smash and grab

They are only not for you because you don't want them to be. They are as equal in ability and training and equipment as any mercenary special forces. They had these abilities before other mercenary special forces O.C.Cs were created, and the Coalition had no answer to them for over a hundred years. Even now they are still unable to match their abilities. You don't like that Commandos do smash and grab? Then complain to history(and the Boers), not me. You don't like them because they don't fit your narrow personal view of what special forces are? Fine. Don't look at the RMB then, you won't like what you find. I've comprehensively disputed any of the talking points you've brought up, if not to your standards than to my own satisfaction. Feel free to respond to one sentence out of this paragraph and ignore the rest as you have been doing.

still not special force or commandos, they are somewhere in between foot soldiers and thieves , no more more less.
but as this drags on and on, i'm get the feeling you how no clue what could be classified as special forces or commandos, since you keep think a smash and grab thief counts as an elite soldier.

[Killer Cyborg]

You don't like them because they don't fit your narrow personal view of what special forces are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces

Special forces, or special operations forces are terms used to describe highly-trained military units trained to perform unconventional, often high-risk missions.

That's not a narrow definition, and it's not a personal definition.
If you don't like it, you can try official dictionaries, but those mostly seem to specify "...US military forces..."

My god! Special Forces didn't exist until the Americans came up with the term in 1952? Someone tell history!

Forgive me if I presented too much information, and it resulted in confusion.
Note that the first definition that I gave, which his neither personal nor narrow, does NOT specify the US, which is why I went with that definition.
I've bolded it, so that the important part of my post now stands out more prominently, and can be addressed instead of ignored for the more superfluous details of my post.

[Killer Cyborg]

Of course.
But "X is derived from Y" is not the same as "X = Y."
The Tundra Rangers came from the RCMP and a batch of soldiers, but they are neither the old Canadian Military nor are they the RCMP; they're something in-between.
Something that the books describe as both police AND as soldiers.
The first does not negate the second.
The fact that they are police does not negate the fact that they are soldiers.

I've quoted the books stating repeatedly that they are soldiers, that they have military training.
I can provide the page numbers, if you have trouble verifying that these quotes are legitimate.
If you do not have any trouble verifying that these quotes are legitimate, that leaves me at a loss as to your confusion.
The books state that the Tundra Rangers are soldiers, with military training.
The definition of "Cavalry" requires for any Cavalry to be soldiers.

Did you read just that sentence?

Which sentence?

Did you read any of the points I brought up?

Yes, and I addressed them, in the post that you're responding to.

Is all that information from the book meaningless to you?

Absolutely not, which is why I am both utilizing it and addressing it.

I don't deny they were founded by descendants of the RCMP and soldiers. I don't have trouble with those quotes, because I can do that too:
"The Tundra Rangers are the equivalent of the old lawmen and gunfighters of the Old (and New) West, or the high-tech Cyber-Knights of the north"
"The Tundra Rangers have grown out of the grand tradition of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police"
"They determined the most effective approach would be to function like the old RCMP as an independent and unallied peacekeeping force"
"In this way, they would reestablish themselves as a police force and win the hearts and minds of the people"
"Lone operatives, pairs and even squads are allowed to work with other lawmen"
"But the second they are dropped into a combat situation, they become tough, calculating lawmen short on mercy for evildoers and
monsters"
"The "Mounties" were first established in 1870 as a para-military police force"
"New blood was a necessity if the para-military force was to continue"
"Since the Tundra Rangers are a well trained, para-military organization"
Definition of paramilitary:
adjective
organized similarly to a military force:
illegal paramilitary groups
paramilitary police
noun (plural paramilitaries)
a member of a paramilitary organization

It's a police force organized LIKE a military, but it's still a police force.

Right.
Just as they're still soldiers.
As I have already pointed out, being police does not make them NOT soldiers.
If you can find any text that does make them NOT soldiers, by all means point it out.

You wanted certain classes to be boxed into a 20/21st century definition of who belongs in the military and if they can be special forces. The trouble is that in history the military aspect of special forces came later (Revolutionary Americans learned their tactics from Native Americans), as did military training, and Rifts doesn't adhere to those rules. If they did there would be no mercenary special forces, because they would all have to be attached to some big nations military machine, like the Coalition.

There most certainly CAN be mercenaries who are soldiers. Typically, they are.
So I don't see any reason why there could not be mercenary special forces.

Being special forces or commandos is just having a skill set, knowing how to use it, a willingness to apply it, and often(but not always) being able to work well within a team of similar people to work to a common goal.

Not according to the English language.
I've provided multiple sources demonstrating that, and those sources over-ride your personal opinion.

The Boer Kommandos were armed farmers

And Hashishins were hashish users, but that has little to nothing to do with a discussion about modern assassins.
And Snipers were bird-hunters at one point in time, but that's no longer the meaning of that word either.

The fact that the comparatively small nation of Tolkeen's forces largely had no military training didn't stop them from cutting the CS forces in half in the Sorcerers Revenge.

Well, no... bad writing did that.

[Killer Cyborg]

You don't like them because they don't fit your narrow personal view of what special forces are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces

Special forces, or special operations forces are terms used to describe highly-trained military units trained to perform unconventional, often high-risk missions.

That's not a narrow definition, and it's not a personal definition.
If you don't like it, you can try official dictionaries, but those mostly seem to specify "...US military forces..."

Yes, but in most of the Rifts universe military forces don't belong to a kingdom they're mercenaries... aka private soldiers.

Which is why I presented the definition that I did, NOT one of the ones from a standard dictionary.
I thought that was rather clear from my post.

[Godogma]

You don't like them because they don't fit your narrow personal view of what special forces are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces

Special forces, or special operations forces are terms used to describe highly-trained military units trained to perform unconventional, often high-risk missions.

That's not a narrow definition, and it's not a personal definition.
If you don't like it, you can try official dictionaries, but those mostly seem to specify "...US military forces..."

Yes, but in most of the Rifts universe military forces don't belong to a kingdom they're mercenaries... aka private soldiers.

Which is why I presented the definition that I did, NOT one of the ones from a standard dictionary.
I thought that was rather clear from my post.

Thus a case can easily be made that Temporal Warriors are both soldiers as well as special forces because they're mercenaries and have special training that makes them uniquely suited to espionage and tactical insertion as well as getting out of the situation successfully with the intel/supplies/etc or successfully dealing with their target in whichever method is necessary. Whether that's sabotaging a factory or taking out a target.

Which was the whole point of this tangent enhancer and I have been explaining before certain people decided that they were unskilled smash and grab thugs.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

You don't like them because they don't fit your narrow personal view of what special forces are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces

Special forces, or special operations forces are terms used to describe highly-trained military units trained to perform unconventional, often high-risk missions.

That's not a narrow definition, and it's not a personal definition.
If you don't like it, you can try official dictionaries, but those mostly seem to specify "...US military forces..."

Yes, but in most of the Rifts universe military forces don't belong to a kingdom they're mercenaries... aka private soldiers.

Which is why I presented the definition that I did, NOT one of the ones from a standard dictionary.
I thought that was rather clear from my post.

Thus a case can easily be made that Temporal Warriors are both soldiers as well as special forces because they're mercenaries and have special training that makes them uniquely suited to espionage and tactical insertion as well as getting out of the situation successfully with the intel/supplies/etc or successfully dealing with their target in whichever method is necessary. Whether that's sabotaging a factory or taking out a target.

Which was the whole point of this tangent enhancer and I have been explaining before certain people decided that they were unskilled smash and grab thugs.

never said they were unskilled, just said they aren't special forces

[Killer Cyborg]

Forgive me if I presented too much information, and it resulted in confusion.
Note that the first definition that I gave, which his neither personal nor narrow, does NOT specify the US, which is why I went with that definition.
I've bolded it, so that the important part of my post now stands out more prominently, and can be addressed instead of ignored for the more superfluous details of my post.

I was merely trying to point that the idea of using the dictionary(or even worse wikipedia) term for special forces is moot because it was invented by the Americans long after the real forces had been around, even the British Commandos of WWII.

Come up with a more authoritative source, and I'll be happy to look at it.

And Commando comes from the Boers,

Already addressed.

[Killer Cyborg]

You don't like them because they don't fit your narrow personal view of what special forces are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces

Special forces, or special operations forces are terms used to describe highly-trained military units trained to perform unconventional, often high-risk missions.

That's not a narrow definition, and it's not a personal definition.
If you don't like it, you can try official dictionaries, but those mostly seem to specify "...US military forces..."

Yes, but in most of the Rifts universe military forces don't belong to a kingdom they're mercenaries... aka private soldiers.

Which is why I presented the definition that I did, NOT one of the ones from a standard dictionary.
I thought that was rather clear from my post.

Thus a case can easily be made that Temporal Warriors are both soldiers as well as special forces because they're mercenaries and have special training that makes them uniquely suited to espionage and tactical insertion as well as getting out of the situation successfully with the intel/supplies/etc or successfully dealing with their target in whichever method is necessary. Whether that's sabotaging a factory or taking out a target.

Temporal Warriors are not soldiers, though. They're not part of a military.

Which was the whole point of this tangent enhancer and I have been explaining before certain people decided that they were unskilled smash and grab thugs.

If you want to discuss their capabilities, then discuss their capabilities.
Trying to claim that they're soldiers, when they're not, or that they're Special Forces, when they're not, seems to be a tangent.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

never said they were unskilled, just said they aren't special forces

One countries special forces is another countries terrorists. Label them what you want, it doesn't make them less effective.

You could have you temporal warrior skilled to style himself much like a member of special forces or commando while the next temporal warrior could be skilled out to undead fighter, or gunslinger.
One temporal raider could style his student in a military fashion, doesn't mean his student is special forces, or commando, his student is just fashion after that style of soldier.

[Nightmask]

How about everyone give up on arguing definitions in regards to special forces? Given it has varied meanings depending on context. Whether a military has a special group that's trained under that heading or puts together a team from various disciplines as a designated special forces group they're all specially trained individuals using said training for specialized purposes generally from a military perspective.

So, back to the actual topic mayhap?

[Godogma]

I'll refer you back to the root word and etymology of soldier one who fights per pay. Aka any mercenary is a soldier. They have special training that no one else has which qualifies them as special forces. Whether you agree with those terms or not doesn't make them any less effective.

You could be a vagabond and as long as you were working in a mercenary company or whatnot you're a soldier.

If you're an operator working for the military you're a soldier.

[Godogma]

How about everyone give up on arguing definitions in regards to special forces? Given it has varied meanings depending on context. Whether a military has a special group that's trained under that heading or puts together a team from various disciplines as a designated special forces group they're all specially trained individuals using said training for specialized purposes generally from a military perspective.

So, back to the actual topic mayhap?

Agreed. Any preferences pan-Coalition destruction?

I still favor the let them destroy themselves after they've started a witch hunt for the actual person who "martyred" aka assassinated the Proseks, thus removing their leadership and they attack their own ranks from within method. It removes the head of the snake, and distracts the rest of the immense war machine. Especially if you're using mind control and soul twist and the like to ensure it.

Also you could sweeten the deal and actually use some of the spells of legend like Blight of Ages to cause food riots and the like amongst the lower end causing further chaos among the mega cities and making them expend yet more resources to either put the uprising down or import food articles.

[flatline]

The CS has no way to harm or chase away magic pigeons, so if you send magic pigeons to meet someone on the roof of Chi-town, they will all hang around there until they expire (assuming the person never actually shows up to receive your message).

So, in all seriousness, how many magic pigeons would it take to collapse the roof of Chi-town?

--flatline

[Godogma]

The CS has no way to harm or chase away magic pigeons, so if you send magic pigeons to meet someone on the roof of Chi-town, they will all hang around there until they expire (assuming the person never actually shows up to receive your message).

So, in all seriousness, how many magic pigeons would it take to collapse the roof of Chi-town?

--flatline

Do magic pigeons actually have any mass? Also, with the MD construction I'm not sure it would matter.

[Godogma]

Huh... why bother with magic pigeons? You could just introduce massive amounts of the real thing to their megacities... If they survived the cataclysm - though pigeons are literally flying disease born menaces with the survivability of rats...

The accumulated pigeon crap would definitely be bad and promote disease and the like.

Another idea~! Biomechanical birds actually eat MD metals they could eat chunks in out of the way sections of the cities they infest...

[flatline]

The CS has no way to harm or chase away magic pigeons, so if you send magic pigeons to meet someone on the roof of Chi-town, they will all hang around there until they expire (assuming the person never actually shows up to receive your message).

So, in all seriousness, how many magic pigeons would it take to collapse the roof of Chi-town?

--flatline

Do magic pigeons actually have any mass? Also, with the MD construction I'm not sure it would matter.

MDC does not imply infinite load bearing capacity.

--flatline

[Godogma]

It implies VAST load bearing capability.

[flatline]

It implies VAST load bearing capability.

So, how much of its load bearing capacity is already consumed by its own weight?
Could the additional weight of millions of pigeons push it into structural failure?
What would the CS response to all these pigeons be?

If there is no response (or they give up responding), then anyone who can change shape into a pigeon could land on Chi-town uncontested.

--flatline

[Godogma]

Quite the interesting theory and it would be interesting to see how that played out. It would offer another method into Chi-Town and if the dog boys and Psi-Stalkers didn't catch onto it you'd be able to get magicians in past the walls. Gleh, hit the post button too fast the first time.

[flatline]

Magic pigeons are an easy way to defeat the senses of dog boys. They get confused if there are multiple sources of magic within sensing range.

--flatline

[Godogma]

Magic pigeons are an easy way to defeat the senses of dog boys. They get confused if there are multiple sources of magic within sensing range.

--flatline

So ... use magic pigeons initially, then add in regular pigeons gradually and finally you can use it as a method of infiltrating Chi-Town... not too bad as a setup. Of course keeping the magic pigeons involved as a decoy.

[flatline]

If infiltration is your goal, send the magic pigeons to the burbs instead of the roof.

--flatline

[Godogma]

The burbs already has a retinnue of magic users and dbees all over the place if you believe the Vanguard book which mysteriously got past the psi-stalkers and constantly eluded them and the dog boys to the point where Joseph found out about the vanguard from old records before they were banished and found them that way but no one else knew more than a rumor they existed...

Seems that there's a big contradiction here to me.

[flatline]

The burbs already has a retinnue of magic users and dbees all over the place if you believe the Vanguard book which mysteriously got past the psi-stalkers and constantly eluded them and the dog boys to the point where Joseph found out about the vanguard from old records before they were banished and found them that way but no one else knew more than a rumor they existed...

Seems that there's a big contradiction here to me.

Perhaps the vanguard survives by keeping a large magic pigeon population in the burbs

--flatline

[Godogma]

Perhaps they're a bunch of hand wavium B.S. that shouldn't exist in the form presented and need a complete overhaul.

They certainly don't exist in any form remotely resembling the one they have in the Vanguard book in any game I run - it just doesn't make any kind of sense.

[Mercdog]

Perhaps they're a bunch of hand wavium B.S. that shouldn't exist in the form presented and need a complete overhaul.

They certainly don't exist in any form remotely resembling the one they have in the Vanguard book in any game I run - it just doesn't make any kind of sense.

Or, it could be that the 'Burbs are not under CS protection and properly could be considered a 'No-Man's land'. The CS might keep spies in the Burbs, send in patrols once in a while to remind Burb-dwellers of their place, or purge troublesome areas, but by and large, unless someone or something in the Burbs is causing trouble for the CS, they don't generally care what happens there.

[Godogma]

Well, save for the patrols that go through there regularly the gate checks to get into the burbs and the fact they burn down Firetown so often its called fire town I guess you could be right.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'll refer you back to the root word and etymology of soldier one who fights per pay.

I'll refer you back to my previous responses that address this point.

[Killer Cyborg]

Which was the whole point of this tangent enhancer and I have been explaining before certain people decided that they were unskilled smash and grab thugs.

If you want to discuss their capabilities, then discuss their capabilities.
Trying to claim that they're soldiers, when they're not, or that they're Special Forces, when they're not, seems to be a tangent.

Tundra Rangers aren't part of a military either but apparently they are soldiers.

Care to support the bolded portion?

Discussing the capabilities of Temporal Warriors is what we were doing before you jumped in with Mech to argue over the semantics of whether or not they should be Special Forces. Congratulations on finding the tangent you started.

Mech wasn't arguing alone on the issue; he just happened to be arguing the right side.
If nobody claimed that Temporal Warriors were Special Forces or Commandos in the first place, there would have been nothing to argue about.
And if nobody had kept trying to argue that point, the discussion wouldn't have lasted long enough to attract my attention.