Thought Experiment - Rifts 2

[Bill]

Assume for a moment that you have been tapped to write the setting chapters for a new edition of the game. You are to focus on middle-America, but you are free to add/drop/keep whatever you like. What does your vision of Rifts look like? Do you stick with the Coalition, or do you choose another faction to build up? Where in the time-line do you focus? Pre 104PA? Post 109PA? Why?

[Zamion138]

Id go old school and be pre 104pa. Id make the game more sdc heavy , id make mdc more rare. Id consentrate on just rural middle of no where rifts american earth. country cites and land scapes the rare robot to be hid from people keeping their lights off at night to not make the city target from a distence. the idea that the 3 or 4 town guards in huntsman armor and wilks rifles actualy do a heap of good and are respected as putting their lives on the line and thanked for their service.
I suppose i would just consentrate on the middle of no where on non power bases so Rural NA would be my area to write about.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

great topic
i have to say 104 pa, and expand on stuff already in past books, maybe update 1 or 2 things,
coalition outpost or two, wilderness towns, farms, maybe an underground city,

[flatline]

Start the game at 101pa since it's a nice round number.
Remove MD/MDC entirely.
Heck, get rid of SDC, too, so that a 2D6 weapon can be lethal again.

I wouldn't pick any one faction to focus on. I'd define 5 or 6, devote half a dozen pages to each, and explain how the current balance is maintained. Then, in the equipment section, I'd give an introduction to the weapons used by each faction and then guidelines for making weapons (set clear upper limits for each type of weapon so that new books don't randomly include laser rifles that do twice the damage of any previously seen laser rifle). I would also introduce a mechanism so that different types of things take different amounts of damage from various weapons (i.e. lasers are far more effective against flesh than metal).

I'd make more changes than that, but there's a good start.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Assume for a moment that you have been tapped to write the setting chapters for a new edition of the game. You are to focus on middle-America, but you are free to add/drop/keep whatever you like. What does your vision of Rifts look like? Do you stick with the Coalition, or do you choose another faction to build up? Where in the time-line do you focus? Pre 104PA? Post 109PA? Why?

I'd go with the CS, 101 PA.
Only I'd go more in-depth into what life in the CS is like.
And what life outside the CS is like.

[ffranceschi]

Post 109PA, CS centric. Why? I love the CS and the story so far...I think it is better to go on that to go "back to the future"...

[Bill]

Answering my own question...I'd write it as a completely alternate timeline. One where the Federation of Magic succeeded in wiping out Chi-Town. The year is 104 PA and the core book focuses on New Chicago, a pan-dimensional capital of the Federation of Magic. The governing body is using an uneasy truce with the Upper Peninsular Kingdom, formerly the rival nations of Ishpeming and Manistique, to wage a genocidal war against the Xiticix swarm. I'd also include brief notes on half a dozen extra-dimensional outposts of the Federation.

[Killer Cyborg]

Answering my own question...I'd write it as a completely alternate timeline. One where the Federation of Magic succeeded in wiping out Chi-Town. The year is 104 PA and the core book focuses on New Chicago, a pan-dimensional capital of the Federation of Magic. The governing body is using an uneasy truce with the Upper Peninsular Kingdom, formerly the rival nations of Ishpeming and Manistique, to wage a genocidal war against the Xiticix swarm. I'd also include brief notes on half a dozen extra-dimensional outposts of the Federation.

Why?

[Josh Hilden]

Why not?

[Bill]

Why?

Because it would allow the folks that want to persist with the old material to add the new rule book to their collection as a dimension book. And if all subsequent supplements were written as a similar revisioning of the world, they would be similarly useful. Why not?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Why?

Because it would allow the folks that want to persist with the old material to add the new rule book to their collection as a dimension book. And if all subsequent supplements were written as a similar revisioning of the world, they would be similarly useful. Why not?

I have always loved alternate timelines ideas

[Incriptus]

I would probably reboot [yikes!] in the years leading up to the Campaign of Unity. I would focus about 1/3 the setting portion of the book setting up a Coalition & Federation of Magic conflict. I guess I never felt anything for Tolkeen as it always seemed like a place that was simply talked about, but not really given enough attention that I wanted to play in it. I would avoid any real "all out war" but emphasize a cold war style conflict often waged by proxy [by player characters].

The second part would be weaponers. I would probably slide in the opposite direction of the previous comments. I would make it painfully obvious that their are more guns than people. Lots of them would be pre-rifts caches. Back when nations were building weapons for standing armies who's populations would dwarf most kingdoms. . . and they were building guns for fun! The factories that have been salvaged and restored were designed to produce for those populations, so even new weapons/armor comes out as surplus! This is also where the "human augmentation" came into play, they could make more weapons than warriors.

I guess I wouldn't change that much to tell you the truth. I guess I would drop the Tolkeen thing . . .not because I didn't like it, but rather I never cared about them in the first place.

[Bill]

I'm not quite ready to let this one die.

Id consentrate on just rural middle of no where rifts american earth. country cites and land scapes the rare robot to be hid from people keeping their lights off at night to not make the city target from a distence. the idea that the 3 or 4 town guards in huntsman armor and wilks rifles actualy do a heap of good and are respected as putting their lives on the line and thanked for their service.
I suppose i would just consentrate on the middle of no where on non power bases so Rural NA would be my area to write about.

Sounds very Mad Max. I like that. Would you tone down the rest of the world to keep the post-apocalyptic tone?

I wouldn't pick any one faction to focus on. I'd define 5 or 6, devote half a dozen pages to each, and explain how the current balance is maintained. Then, in the equipment section, I'd give an introduction to the weapons used by each faction and then guidelines for making weapons (set clear upper limits for each type of weapon so that new books don't randomly include laser rifles that do twice the damage of any previously seen laser rifle). I would also introduce a mechanism so that different types of things take different amounts of damage from various weapons (i.e. lasers are far more effective against flesh than metal).

I'd make more changes than that, but there's a good start.

--flatline

I like the idea of making the game more customizable and offering examples plus rules for creating your own gear. Which factions would you want to include in the core rulebook? Would you want to continue adding factions as you spread out or would you prefer to expand on the factions that you have selected? Both?

I'd go with the CS, 101 PA.
Only I'd go more in-depth into what life in the CS is like.
And what life outside the CS is like.

Where outside? Metaphorically? I think building up the party insider vs the underground renegades angle could be cool. What would be different in 101 PA?

Post 109PA, CS centric. Why? I love the CS and the story so far...I think it is better to go on that to go "back to the future"...

How would you advance the time-line? Has the war with Free Quebec ground to a halt? Or did the CS crush them? Will Archie's plans bring the whole of north America under his control? There's a lot of ground to cover if you move the time-line up.

[Braden Campbell]

Start in 201 PA... a full century after the original Rifts.

Just about every NPC in every book is dead (excluding dragons and vampires and whatnot, of course), and the CS is in the midst of a succession crisis.

The ocean levels have continued to rise, turning large portions of the midwest and Texas into a shallow in-land sea upon which pirates do battle. There is a growing fear that, someday, the Earth may be entirely drowned.

[Bill]

Start in 201 PA... a full century after the original Rifts.

Just about every NPC in every book is dead (excluding dragons and vampires and whatnot, of course), and the CS is in the midst of a succession crisis.

The ocean levels have continued to rise, turning large portions of the midwest and Texas into a shallow in-land sea upon which pirates do battle. There is a growing fear that, someday, the Earth may be entirely drowned.

That would be pretty cool to see!

[flatline]

I wouldn't pick any one faction to focus on. I'd define 5 or 6, devote half a dozen pages to each, and explain how the current balance is maintained. Then, in the equipment section, I'd give an introduction to the weapons used by each faction and then guidelines for making weapons (set clear upper limits for each type of weapon so that new books don't randomly include laser rifles that do twice the damage of any previously seen laser rifle). I would also introduce a mechanism so that different types of things take different amounts of damage from various weapons (i.e. lasers are far more effective against flesh than metal).

I'd make more changes than that, but there's a good start.

--flatline

I like the idea of making the game more customizable and offering examples plus rules for creating your own gear. Which factions would you want to include in the core rulebook? Would you want to continue adding factions as you spread out or would you prefer to expand on the factions that you have selected? Both?

I'd design Rifts Earth such that not even the most significant powers have meaningful reach too far outside their region, so that as we publish new books, we don't constantly have to redefine already detailed players from other regions. So as new regions are developed, new factions would be introduced. Each region could be played in isolation or neighboring regions could interract in limited ways. I want the balance of power in each region to be unstable so that (a) player characters can act as catalysts for change and (b) no power from one region can militarily reach into another region without leaving themselves vulnerable.

I would set things up so that the first region defined sets the power levels for the whole world for tech, magic, and psionics. If a newly defined region as more powerful weapons/spells/whatever, there needs to be a reason why it makes sense for previously defined regions to continue using what's defined in their books rather than importing/copying the improved stuff from the new book. Naturally, the easiest way to do this is to never define a new region that is more powerful than previously defined regions.

--flatline

[kaid]

Id go old school and be pre 104pa. Id make the game more sdc heavy , id make mdc more rare. Id consentrate on just rural middle of no where rifts american earth. country cites and land scapes the rare robot to be hid from people keeping their lights off at night to not make the city target from a distence. the idea that the 3 or 4 town guards in huntsman armor and wilks rifles actualy do a heap of good and are respected as putting their lives on the line and thanked for their service.
I suppose i would just consentrate on the middle of no where on non power bases so Rural NA would be my area to write about.

I think making SDC more common and making the jump from MDC to SDC less sever would be the first things I would do. Maybe make it 10-1 mdc to sdc instead of 100-1. It still makes tank level weapons deadly but at least this way if somebody is in light or non MDC armor its not the death sentence we currently have. Right now either your armor is still intact and you are perfectly fine or they punch through your armor and you are basically vaporized.

The rifts setting is excellent but the whole initial MDC introduction to it with the extreme range between SDC and MDC set the path to much of the power creep that has come since. To some extent this is understandable they keep upping the armor so people don't get popped like balloons then people get the itch and bump weapon damage up because everybody likes seeing bigger numbers rinse and repeat.

SDC should be the primary damage threshold with only advanced power armors/robotic vehicles/cyborgs and such and high end magic being MDC.

[Tiree]

I would go with: 1PA and call it the "Rebirth of Man"

Focus on low MDC and no MDC. SDC weaponry. Slow travel, and minimal travel. Make the towns 3 to 5 days travel apart, etc... Vehicles would be slim. Robots and Power Armor are rare.

Most augmented PC's will be indentured to a government... to keep their war machines moving.

[Bill]

I think making SDC more common and making the jump from MDC to SDC less sever would be the first things I would do. Maybe make it 10-1 mdc to sdc instead of 100-1. It still makes tank level weapons deadly but at least this way if somebody is in light or non MDC armor its not the death sentence we currently have. Right now either your armor is still intact and you are perfectly fine or they punch through your armor and you are basically vaporized.

The rifts setting is excellent but the whole initial MDC introduction to it with the extreme range between SDC and MDC set the path to much of the power creep that has come since. To some extent this is understandable they keep upping the armor so people don't get popped like balloons then people get the itch and bump weapon damage up because everybody likes seeing bigger numbers rinse and repeat.

SDC should be the primary damage threshold with only advanced power armors/robotic vehicles/cyborgs and such and high end magic being MDC.

Mechanics are irrelevant here. You only get to write the setting. What would you alter or keep the same? What would you add?

[Daeglan]

I would clean up the rules and streamline them. I have tried to run Palladium and it is a nightmare to try and find rules figure out how to run the rules as intended. And the system seems to be horribly slow. And for the love of everything holy...can we get all of the rules in one book. Instead of spread over every book in the system.

[Bill]

I would clean up the rules and streamline them. I have tried to run Palladium and it is a nightmare to try and find rules figure out how to run the rules as intended. And the system seems to be horribly slow. And for the love of everything holy...can we get all of the rules in one book. Instead of spread over every book in the system.

Didn't read the thread, huh? In this hypothetical, you don't get to change the system. Heck, you don't even get any say on the organization or layout. All you get is to shape the story of the world. Who are the heroes in your version?

[Daeglan]

I think the story is great. Though there are a lot of alternative turns the world can take. But that really is not what I care about. What I really care about is having an easy to run system. Palladium has awesome story. The game system is frustrating at best.

[Lt Gargoyle]

I have to agree with those who would fix the mechanics of the game. I also would thin out the population centers. I would like to see a Rifts earth which did not have a city or town just over the hill. ( I know that is an how it really is, but that is how it appears from all the books)

[Bill]

I also would thin out the population centers. I would like to see a Rifts earth which did not have a city or town just over the hill. ( I know that is an how it really is, but that is how it appears from all the books)

Adding emphasis on the dangerous wild spaces between the cities might be a good way to go. How would you keep that engaging for a reader? Siembeda gave the potential dangers of the wilderness a couple pages, but it sounds like you'd want to give it more. Random encounter tables? Introduce a few NPC monsters that are known to haunt specific areas?

[Bill]

Random tables are a tradition in Palladium products. And I'm not worried. There are LOTS of threads to gripe about mechanics, this just isn't one of them.

[kaid]

I think making SDC more common and making the jump from MDC to SDC less sever would be the first things I would do. Maybe make it 10-1 mdc to sdc instead of 100-1. It still makes tank level weapons deadly but at least this way if somebody is in light or non MDC armor its not the death sentence we currently have. Right now either your armor is still intact and you are perfectly fine or they punch through your armor and you are basically vaporized.

The rifts setting is excellent but the whole initial MDC introduction to it with the extreme range between SDC and MDC set the path to much of the power creep that has come since. To some extent this is understandable they keep upping the armor so people don't get popped like balloons then people get the itch and bump weapon damage up because everybody likes seeing bigger numbers rinse and repeat.

SDC should be the primary damage threshold with only advanced power armors/robotic vehicles/cyborgs and such and high end magic being MDC.

Mechanics are irrelevant here. You only get to write the setting. What would you alter or keep the same? What would you add?

If the mechanics wouldn't be changes then I would just keep the current setting. It would be difficult to impossible to switch things to more of a post apocalyptic hard scrabble type game I think rifts was originally intended to be as long as the MDC mechanic stays as is. When any MDC weapon is an instant I win button to anybody without MDC protection you will quickly move to what we currently see. High tech armor/weapons/armor being common place.

[Killer Cyborg]

When any MDC weapon is an instant I win button to anybody without MDC protection you will quickly move to what we currently see. High tech armor/weapons/armor being common place.

I disagree.
First off, MD weapons are not an instant win; there are ways for SDC characters to defeat Mega-Damage opponents.
Although I'll grant you that mega-damage will have quite an edge as a rule, especially in straight-up combat.

Secondly, the problem isn't mega-damage, it's a lack of SDC gear in the books. Fill in the gaps between today's firearms and the MD weapons of Rifts Earth, and things would be a lot more even. Ditto with armor.
If you have 1,000 SDC body armor, and a gun capable of inflicting 4d6x10 SDC per shot (or burst), that's going to allow you to have a much better chance against a Mega-Damage foe, especially if you have numbers on your side (i.e., you're part of a militia, facing off against a bandit).
If the rules for mega-damage were left the same, but the [b]gear[/g] and/or creatures were toned down to more reasonable levels, that would be a setting change, not a rule change*. Make dinosaurs high SDC creatures, drop the MD and MDC of a lot of the Mega-Damage gear, and the setting could make a lot more sense than it does now, as well as being a lot more balanced.



*(Although if the original poster wants to roll this kind of change in with rule changes, I guess that point would be negated)

[Hotrod]

Setting-wise, I would keep most of the major powers as they are. The basics of the setting are what's best about Rifts.

Changes I would make to North America: The New West and Spirit West would go. For me, the setting is prone to stumble a bit when cultural cliches from our past become the basis for a post-apocalyptic setting, and both of these books seem to lean heavily on cultural cliches from the 1800s American frontier/Old West eras.

I'd also condense and scale down the Siege on Tolkeen, turning it into a single campaign book.

Finally, I'd make some changes to Erin Tarn's role as the dominant narrator of the setting. Perhaps have a rival rogue scholar? It would be interesting to see two legitimate and disagreeing perspectives on the same places and issues. Erin Tarn's perspective seems a bit too tied to Kevin Siembieda's.

[kaid]

When any MDC weapon is an instant I win button to anybody without MDC protection you will quickly move to what we currently see. High tech armor/weapons/armor being common place.

I disagree.
First off, MD weapons are not an instant win; there are ways for SDC characters to defeat Mega-Damage opponents.
Although I'll grant you that mega-damage will have quite an edge as a rule, especially in straight-up combat.

Secondly, the problem isn't mega-damage, it's a lack of SDC gear in the books. Fill in the gaps between today's firearms and the MD weapons of Rifts Earth, and things would be a lot more even. Ditto with armor.
If you have 1,000 SDC body armor, and a gun capable of inflicting 4d6x10 SDC per shot (or burst), that's going to allow you to have a much better chance against a Mega-Damage foe, especially if you have numbers on your side (i.e., you're part of a militia, facing off against a bandit).
If the rules for mega-damage were left the same, but the [b]gear[/g] and/or creatures were toned down to more reasonable levels, that would be a setting change, not a rule change*. Make dinosaurs high SDC creatures, drop the MD and MDC of a lot of the Mega-Damage gear, and the setting could make a lot more sense than it does now, as well as being a lot more balanced.



*(Although if the original poster wants to roll this kind of change in with rule changes, I guess that point would be negated)

Actually having that kind of SDC really does not help much. An SDC weapon is incapable of harming an MDC structure and that 1,000 SCD which is very much on the high end for SDC armor could hold up to one maybe two pistol blasts or one spell. In any game where the MDC scaling exists you will see everybody shift from SDC to MDC fast. Players do not enjoy having their characters randomly vaporised every other adventure. Even with good GM'ing you almost cannot prevent this from happening if your party is using mostly SDC in the rifts environment with MDC scaling as is.

[Godogma]

As for making modern smokeless powder it's quite easy to do, you can get all the necessary components or make them with a chemistry set and stuff you're going to be going through feeding yourself and your animals. Of course you have to play in animal poo to get some of it and you're going to need to distill and run urine through several stages to get others. It's simpler to make black powder but also involves those processes just less of them and you don't need the chemistry set to refine the materials as much.

Its a nasty process but you can do it.

MDC weapons are made with MDC components - what would take them out of commission is damage from combat. Chipwell is the only manufacturer I know of that uses SDC components under an MD shell and they don't make their own weapons; generally they use low end (read cheap) NG or Wilks products.

Over on the GURPS forum there's a great thread on post apocalyptic Earth and how weapons and gunpowder would be made and the like. As for time doing damage, it does take a toll but I've got firearms made back in the 1890s that went through WW1 and are still in good shape; and most of them were oiled once and thrown in a closet for years before I rescued them. I don't know what the Palladium Books policy is on posting links from other forums or I'd run it down for you.

Reducing the amount of SDC per MDC could help the system but I'm uncertain. Honestly there are tons of manufacturers of MD weapons and armor and they make LOTS per year. The Coalition alone churns out millions of new weapons and e-clips a year and a decent percentage of back stock ends up on the Black Market.

IF I was in charge of the setting I'd definitely add more into the wilderness - tables and the like for encounters and other possible stuff to run into. There's not much devoted to that in the books.

[Godogma]

As for making modern smokeless powder it's quite easy to do, you can get all the necessary components or make them with a chemistry set and stuff you're going to be going through feeding yourself and your animals. Of course you have to play in animal poo to get some of it and you're going to need to distill and run urine through several stages to get others. It's simpler to make black powder but also involves those processes just less of them and you don't need the chemistry set to refine the materials as much.

Its a nasty process but you can do it.

MDC weapons are made with MDC components - what would take them out of commission is damage from combat. Chipwell is the only manufacturer I know of that uses SDC components under an MD shell and they don't make their own weapons; generally they use low end (read cheap) NG or Wilks products.

Over on the GURPS forum there's a great thread on post apocalyptic Earth and how weapons and gunpowder would be made and the like. As for time doing damage, it does take a toll but I've got firearms made back in the 1890s that went through WW1 and are still in good shape; and most of them were oiled once and thrown in a closet for years before I rescued them. I don't know what the Palladium Books policy is on posting links from other forums or I'd run it down for you.

Reducing the amount of SDC per MDC could help the system but I'm uncertain. Honestly there are tons of manufacturers of MD weapons and armor and they make LOTS per year. The Coalition alone churns out millions of new weapons and e-clips a year and a decent percentage of back stock ends up on the Black Market.

IF I was in charge of the setting I'd definitely add more into the wilderness - tables and the like for encounters and other possible stuff to run into. There's not much devoted to that in the books.

I'm not saying that making ammo and such can't be done, but how much of the surviving population has the skills and materials? And how many will be taught as time goes on and education levels go to near zero? Heck, eventually reloaders will just wear out their brass. The other problem I think for firearms is cleaning materials and solvents. Some aren't picky about being cleaned, some are (AR-15) and if corrosive surplus ammo is all you have that can be important. How many people know how to make ammonia? Or even have access to hot water and soap in an apocalyptic setting? Parts in guns wear out over time, and good luck finding a replacement bolt for your CZ VZ. 58(just an example, most would have ARs judging by today's market). Guns are tough and simple, many would survive. Important to note though the amount of Old West guns that survived out of how many were made, without an apocalypse. I'm just trying to infer that the ratio of guns to ammo is significantly in favor of guns.
M.D.C weapons are harder to gauge on the whole, they don't really go into to the decay rate of M.D.C materials, ceramic or metal. The best example seems to be the Glitterboys which are holding up well(too well as many have pointed out, where are they getting replacement nuclear power supplies?) and found stashes of old things like original SAMAS. At any rate, the level of decay seems negligible for game purposes, which would just add to their value. I have a hard time believing every component on them, especially weapons, is M.D.C(M.D.C crystals?), something would eventually go and need to be replaced. However, if all the weapons don't decay, why on earth is everyone buying new ones? Why are there so many weapons when the population is so low?
Palladium really loves cranking out the weapons by the truckload. It sells books, so when you accumulate all the guns they bring out it's hard to understand how they can be rare. It's a failing of theirs I think, I never really understood how arms manufacturers were able to make such leaps and bounds in the later books, bringing out tons of new stuff every year. It made you think, how come the first versions took like 300 years but now they are 50% more powerful per year. Especially as they are now so far superior to pre-rifts weapons that were supposed to be the height of tech and spending which now look like tinker toys. Or how there are so many things are nuclear powered, how on earth is everyone getting all the uranium when all of the deposits(aside from southern Texas) are in the midwest? I'm sure they just wave their wand and said "the Rifts made new ones right under Old Chicago!" or something, and all new guns are from exposure to super alien magic tech, but I kind of wish Rifts kept their post-apocalyptic feel. Why didn't they just bring out a selection of different weapons without the power creep?

Making brass also isn't hard, or primers... And you can make new parts with a CNC machine or even one of those 3D printers. I know where one of the latter and like six of the former are within 25 miles of my house. And I live in a small town in the North East GA Mountains.

As for power creep? Not really - compared to some of the Rifts books yes, compared to Chaos Earth not really. But if you were wanting to know when real power creep started just look at Coalition War Campaign.

Earth's weapons tech is constantly in motion and constantly improving, its at the equal of Phase World but then again Rifts Earth is at a dimensional crux point and in a state of constant warfare (somewhere on the planet someone is at war constantly) and there's the war for survival.

And overall there really hasn't been a whole lot of power creep if I recall correctly; New West has the Wilks 157 Judgement Day (Wilks 457 in New West clothes) which does 3d+2 MDC per shot or 1d6x10 per triple pulse burst.

Honestly it still has a post apocalyptic feel, just not a "right after the apocalypse feel". Humanity was always going to rebuild, and having kingdoms scattered around the place makes sense. The Coalition growing leaps and bounds like it has and having enough people to do what it does doesn't make a lot of sense (to me) but there you go.

[Godogma]

Making brass also isn't hard, or primers... And you can make new parts with a CNC machine or even one of those 3D printers. I know where one of the latter and like six of the former are within 25 miles of my house. And I live in a small town in the North East GA Mountains.

As for power creep? Not really - compared to some of the Rifts books yes, compared to Chaos Earth not really. But if you were wanting to know when real power creep started just look at Coalition War Campaign.

Earth's weapons tech is constantly in motion and constantly improving, its at the equal of Phase World but then again Rifts Earth is at a dimensional crux point and in a state of constant warfare (somewhere on the planet someone is at war constantly) and there's the war for survival.

And overall there really hasn't been a whole lot of power creep if I recall correctly; New West has the Wilks 157 Judgement Day (Wilks 457 in New West clothes) which does 3d+2 MDC per shot or 1d6x10 per triple pulse burst.

Honestly it still has a post apocalyptic feel, just not a "right after the apocalypse feel". Humanity was always going to rebuild, and having kingdoms scattered around the place makes sense. The Coalition growing leaps and bounds like it has and having enough people to do what it does doesn't make a lot of sense (to me) but there you go.

Well by Dinosaur Swamp reckonings your mountains got so hammered by storms, flash floods, burst dams, earthquakes and mountain upheavals so violent that they changed the landscape to the point where current maps are useless. Whole towns were submerged. And this is after a nuclear exchange that might have passed dust that way. Make sure you bring your finite supply of fossil fuel(if you can find some) along with you to power that generator to provide the electricity needed to power up that CNC machine. Somehow I think the equipment you are looking for is gone, even assuming you dig through the scrap for copper and sift the ground for the zinc in pennies for your brass. Don't get eaten or shot on the way. Once you are done you can start building that forge, so you can melt the metals together and make your brass shell casings out of home made dies(might be lucky enough for a propane torch). Here is how a company like Norma does it: "The process starts with a brass disk stamped from strips of metal. Then, through a series of stages, the brass is extruded or drawn into a cylindrical shape. In the extrusion process the brass is squeezed through a die under tremendous pressure. This is repeated two or three times typically. In the more traditional “draw” process, the case is progressively stretched longer, in 3 to 5 stages, using a series of high-pressure rams forcing the brass into a form die." Don't get the sizes wrong or it will not cycle in your firearm(or indeed not fit at all)Now all you need is primers. Presumably you still have your impressive chemistry set and books, so all you need now is the components to make fulminated mercury, or perhaps you can try your hand at one of the more recent formulas with lead styphnate, barium nitrate or antimony sulfide. Make sure not to blow your hands off at any time trying to mix and make these extremely dangerous shock sensitive explosives. Form that into a percussion cap and you are off to the races.

Look, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I just think you are under-representing the scale of the task of effectively starting the firearms industry over for yourself. It is easier to do if you use flintlock style weapons, but will be the extent of your firearms capability. Sure there will have been places that survived the onslaught relatively intact that could make these products, but they would be extremely rare and more valuable than a gold mine.

The power creep has been significant since very early on. The first Rifts Sourcebook had the Wilk's 447(Atlantis had the even better K-4), which doubled the burst damage of the previous best, the L-20(if you ignore the C-12 "standard" burst). The NG-E4 had the same damage, payload(more with Long E-Clip) and range as the CS most powerful firearm(C-27), didn't use the stupid CS proprietary E-Canister, and cost less. And it has kept up at that kind of rate, Rifts Mercenaries doubled the damage of plasma rifles, and then Merc Ops increased that by 50%(100% if you use the original Rifter #4 version) with bursting. If you even bring a C.J Carella book into the room, all power levels increase by 50%(laboratory tested). So doubling the damage output in 5 years. I think that's a little much.

I didn't say there wasn't some power creep just that there wasn't all that much. But I guess one's estimate of "all that much" depends on the person you're asking. You're over estimating the difficulty in making firearms and ammunition (granted I'm underestimating it a fair bit as well). You can hand make hundreds of rounds in a week or so of effort including making the brass. They make hundreds of thousands of rounds as well as firearms that work reliably even if they aren't all that pretty in the Darra area without powered equipment of any kind. If the people of the middle east with very little education can do it so can someone with a decent education in North America unless they're utterly incompetent or stupid (and if people don't carry their weight in Post Apoc I doubt they survive).

I dunno about you but I have access to three different generators and building a still to turn out fuel doesn't take much effort either. And if making black powder guns is too difficult for your tastes in believability use air canisters salvaged from paint ball guns and make your own .45 caliber air rifles or arrow slinging rifles if you prefer those. But I can make a lathe out of very few parts I can salvage off a wrecked car that's muscle powered, so I can make barrels and I can also make ammunition.... Carving the stock is easy, and there's all the necessary parts for a breech loading rifle.

If that fails I have two copies of every popular mechanic plan for making something useful from long ago when they had plans for how to make power tools and bows and arrows and even a repeating crossbow. I printed them out for ease of use, but I also have them all saved on pdf... If you want the link to the old popular mechanics stuff I'll post that one here... http://www.vintageprojects.com/

I'll send you the link to the GURPS forum stuff if you want me to PM it to you or know if it's permissible to post it into the thread?

Also you can avoid the percussion cap if you have some copper wire and a battery and a simple button... Use electric ignition for your firing mechanism. You can keep your batteries charged with a bicycle and some modifications... *shrug* Maybe I'm just more into do it yourself stuff than other people though.

[Godogma]

I don't have to MacGyver my own... for a very long time. I have quite a stockpile of weapons as well as ammunition (and the supplies to make more) as well as a half dozen bows and crossbows. I live back in the hills where people hunt, fish, plow their own gardens every year etc, etc. My father owns three generators... maybe four if we got the brass or rubber piece which is all that's needed to bring the military surplus one online (or got off our asses and made one - but that's something we haven't gotten around to doing). Ethanol eats rubber and it had a rubber float, 10% ethanol isn't nice to older engines.

As for food, we have the stuff to both can (in glass jars) and tin (in tin cans) our own food and one hell of a stockpile of that as well. But yes, I'm not expecting a whole lot of people to survive with my skill set. But a lot more people than you think own firearms as well as stockpile ammunition. According to the police foundation there are over 192 million working firearms in private possession in the US. 128 million Long Guns and 64 million Pistols and 40% of the pistols are semi-automatics (and that information is out of date). Long arms are not required to be registered and neither are handguns in most places so there could be many more. http://www.policefoundation.org/pdf/GunsInAmerica.pdf

Most every gun owner knows how to perform basic maintenance on their firearms... Complicated stuff is up in the air whether or not they do or not. Lots of firearms owners are amateur gunsmiths. It's really not hard work, just very exacting and time consuming to make your own barrels and the like (if you screw up, and you will at one point or another you have to start over or risk having a messed up barrel explode in your face). If you have advanced machinery to do it with its much easier and less so it's also much less dangerous to have a skilled gunsmith make your custom barrel from a blank than to do it yourself.

Plus, guess what? Gunsmithing is a very gorram important skill for the post apocalypse, or apocalypse. People will support the gunsmith just so he'll keep their stuff repaired. I know of three in roughly 30 miles around my home and I'm sure they'd be well fed and cared for by any community after the possible apocalypse.

You don't need "brass" to make shell casings. You can make the damn things out of plastic, aluminum, or tin cans and I have enough soda cans just waiting sorted at my house for recycling that I could make bullet casings out of its not even funny. If you're using black powder you can make them out of waxed paper with an opening in the rear end.

As for turning food into alcohol to burn? Are you kidding me? If you don't want to drink it you can make alcohol out of pine needles and tree bark. Riots and gangs would have problems ... namely that rifles have a gorram long range and my brother and I as well as my dad are crack shots. Monsters - depends on if they're something our guns/bows/blades will hurt.

Why does everyone make anything about a possible apocalypse when someone says its possible to do something be about the person saying that it's possible to do something? Why does everyone think that black powder is such a problem to make? Hell its a dirt simple technology once you have the know how to make it in the first place. Your local library probably has half a dozen books that talk about how it's done and even have the formula for it in them (A LOT of old western novels did).

If you have electricity or a method of making electricity powerful enough you can weld with two quarters and a set of jumper cables (arc welding) or use the same device to cut metal... Maybe its just me or are people honestly not educated about anything basic science and a decent amount of curiosity could teach them? Or maybe people these days have information overload and anything they don't expect to use just runs out one ear or the other?

Oh, and those aren't magazines of mine... They're laminated high quality paper, and I have a copy in my BUG OUT bag and another on a shelf in a binder. Also saved to various places on my hard drive...

The biggest problem is surviving the first bit of the apocalypse (the actual apocalyptic part) then humanity can pull itself back out of the crapper without too much of an issue (compared to surviving the apocalypse in the first place). Reclamation of car parts will provide the survivors with most if not all their necessary metal for making metal items for ages for example. Since there are many more cars than guns and there are literally millions of guns.

Most of your population is gonna go poof because they're gonna panic or just give up instead of working for their survival.

EDIT: But if you'd like to continue our discussion on how to survive post apocalyptia perhaps we should take it to PM and not continue to high jack the thread.

[Failgoat]

first off, i want to thank bill for a truly excellent topic.
personally, my imagination and creativity has been so stagnated by mmo's lately, this topic comes as a very sweet breath of fresh air, and for the first time in a very long time, i found myself excited by a pen and paper rpg.

so, here goes.

advance the timeline one hundred years, or more if so inclined.

somewhere inbetween, the unstable P.P.E. of Earth explodes a second time, albeit on a slightly smaller scale than the original eruption, as the natural energies of Earth continue to try to find balance. massive death and destruction ensues. (to me, this seems inevitable, the planet is completely out of whack why would it remain relatively calm forevermore [relative in regards to the original cataclysm])

no more towns and cities over every hill.
no more m.d.c. available at your local grocer.

the megacity that is chi-town is crumbled (guess what humans, you thought you were safe behind that giant dome, Earth disagrees)

i'd keep the coalition, even with chi-town and other megacities crumbling, it could be salvaged. But leadership and ideology behind it are vastly different. sure, Earth still needs to be reclaimed by humans, but magic isnt the bad guy, its the way its being used that is evil. re-emphasize the importance of education and understanding.
so magic would no longer be outlawed within the coalition, just heavily regulated.
by no means would i try to say the coalition is now the perfect place, thers still corruption, a snobby beauracracy with a propaganda machine and all that, etc. just with a different outlook.

world war whatever-number-you-want-to-use breaks out in the aftermath as everyone with a shred of power thinks "this is my chance! im gonna rule the world!"

when the dust settles, theres no more cold-war stalemate type situation. its war. theres all the same dangers that were present before, except there isnt a safehaven just around the corner. plan accordingly.

anyways, thats what i would do, for starters, might post again when i have more time to think about it.

[Godogma]

first off, i want to thank bill for a truly excellent topic.
personally, my imagination and creativity has been so stagnated by mmo's lately, this topic comes as a very sweet breath of fresh air, and for the first time in a very long time, i found myself excited by a pen and paper rpg.

so, here goes.

advance the timeline one hundred years, or more if so inclined.

somewhere inbetween, the unstable P.P.E. of Earth explodes a second time, albeit on a slightly smaller scale than the original eruption, as the natural energies of Earth continue to try to find balance. massive death and destruction ensues. (to me, this seems inevitable, the planet is completely out of whack why would it remain relatively calm forevermore [relative in regards to the original cataclysm])

no more towns and cities over every hill.
no more m.d.c. available at your local grocer.

the megacity that is chi-town is crumbled (guess what humans, you thought you were safe behind that giant dome, Earth disagrees)

i'd keep the coalition, even with chi-town and other megacities crumbling, it could be salvaged. But leadership and ideology behind it are vastly different. sure, Earth still needs to be reclaimed by humans, but magic isnt the bad guy, its the way its being used that is evil. re-emphasize the importance of education and understanding.
so magic would no longer be outlawed within the coalition, just heavily regulated.
by no means would i try to say the coalition is now the perfect place, thers still corruption, a snobby beauracracy with a propaganda machine and all that, etc. just with a different outlook.

world war whatever-number-you-want-to-use breaks out in the aftermath as everyone with a shred of power thinks "this is my chance! im gonna rule the world!"

when the dust settles, theres no more cold-war stalemate type situation. its war. theres all the same dangers that were present before, except there isnt a safehaven just around the corner. plan accordingly.

anyways, thats what i would do, for starters, might post again when i have more time to think about it.

One problem, the ley lines have reached a point of stability. The fluctuations cause occasional ley line storms (or frequent depending on your location) and/or Rifts to elsewhere. Also, there simply isn't of a population to trigger another Great Cataclysm - if I recall correctly the event was triggered because so many people died at once and super saturated the ley lines with PPE.

Problem 2, there aren't towns and cities over every hill. There are kingdoms and city states trying to rebuild in lots of areas however; it's people's instinct to survive and thrive. It may *seem* like there are burgeoning civilizations trying to form up everywhere but if you look at the maps and such provided in the world books you'll see that most of them are a decent distance from each other. Ranging from 40-50 miles to hundreds of miles.

Problem 3, if you take the monsters as written without MDC weapon production your newly more fragile populace just got wiped out by a small pack of raptors or some other light megadamage predator that you can't hurt without explosives or tank guns. Mysteriously taking away MD production doesn't solve any problems unless you completely rework the system including all the animals/monsters/beasts of wherever.

Last Problem, there simply aren't enough people to even fill up the north american continent and they're all too busy trying to survive. None of them have a snowball's chance in the south of Hades to start a "world war".

[Bill]

Except that this is a new edition and pretty much anything except changing the rules goes. A second wave of global ley line storms from the "unstable" PPE network sounds like as good a revision as any to me.

[Godogma]

Except that this is a new edition and pretty much anything except changing the rules goes. A second wave of global ley line storms from the "unstable" PPE network sounds like as good a revision as any to me.

Okay, then let me rephrase the sentence - based on established material it is my considered opinion that his revisions would very likely blow out what remains of the customer support that allows Palladium Books keep functioning. Since it completely tries to rewrite what was already established as fact and also makes several really dumb things into part of the setting.

[Bill]

Now, now. This thread is for discussing alterations to the setting, not the impact of those changes on the company. Try to avoid dragging it off topic again, please.

[Failgoat]

cool, i figured there would be all kinds of problems with the idea. you make great points.

problem 1. im sure the planet seemed pretty darn stable to the population before the initial cataclysm too. they were wrong. yes, it took a massive influx of ppe energy to trigger it from a contained state, but it isnt in that state anymore. the energy is already coursing pretty strong. if you have scientific data to support a theory that claims its now in a state that is incapable of a great surge of energy then im listening. but im doubtiing it, as far as im aware said data doesnt exist. sure the book might say "its reached a point of stability" i donno but all i can say to that is...its a ~new~ edition idea. stability schmability

problem 2. its a good point you make. but, palladium doesnt have 1000 pages for its rmb or rue, so its not detailing every town in existence. also, my original post stated advance 100 years maybe more if you want. its my idea for ~new~ edition, so sorry, there ARE towns and cities over every hill. like you said, humanity's instinct is to survive and thrive, but not make towns? k...

problem 3. i have seen the argument made time and time again on these boards. sdc and non mdc CAN win over mdc, it just takes creativity, critical thinking, planning, strategy, etc. of course you are correct, those mdc raptors (or whatever expample) are gonna wipe a lot of stuff out, but not everything. forgive me for not being exact, my idea calls for a drastic reduction, not complete and total eradication. also, i never said mysteriously, all mdc production is gone. i said it wasnt available in every hardware store, or something to that effect. again, please forgive my lack of perfect specification. mdc production is not gone for all human civilization, its just a lot more rare. and from alot of what iv read on these boards, that would seem to be a welcome change to a lot of people.

last problem! you are absolutely correct sir! that last one was ludicrous on my part lol. no world war. i'd just like to do away with "cold-war stalemate"

all in all, i really appreciate your input. no idea is going to be perfect here, imo. your critique will help me in the long run. thank you sir!

[Failgoat]

Except that this is a new edition and pretty much anything except changing the rules goes. A second wave of global ley line storms from the "unstable" PPE network sounds like as good a revision as any to me.

thank you sir! you took the types right out of my fingers! or something like that =)

[Failgoat]

Except that this is a new edition and pretty much anything except changing the rules goes. A second wave of global ley line storms from the "unstable" PPE network sounds like as good a revision as any to me.

Okay, then let me rephrase the sentence - based on established material it is my considered opinion that his revisions would very likely blow out what remains of the customer support that allows Palladium Books keep functioning. Since it completely tries to rewrite what was already established as fact and also makes several really dumb things into part of the setting.

feel free to critique me and allow myself to make responses stating that you are correct before calling an idea dumb. thank you.

[Godogma]

problem 2. its a good point you make. but, palladium doesnt have 1000 pages for its rmb or rue, so its not detailing every town in existence. also, my original post stated advance 100 years maybe more if you want. its my idea for ~new~ edition, so sorry, there ARE towns and cities over every hill. like you said, humanity's instinct is to survive and thrive, but not make towns? k...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Except it was you who said that there were no towns over every hill in your alterations to the setting post; my post was simply pointing out that it was already the case that towns weren't over every hill. Second, in my opinion the idea is stupid taken as a whole. The "World War" idea especially, since there's not even enough of humanity on the whole planet to fill up North America and they're all constantly fighting for their own survival.

I'm sorry if I offended you but that's just the way it is. Also my ability to be politically correct when I have a migraine is near nil, so *shrug*.

[Failgoat]

nah. i dont care about politicallly correct, just wish you were more friendly is all. but whatever.

and yea i said there were no towns or cities over every hill, due to the second wave of global storms, implying they were there beforehand, which as stated by the op, is the perogative of the designer of the new edition. and i agreed the world war idea was not a good one. i wasnt offended, just disappointed. but nevertheless, i still appreciate your criticisms as they definitely help me gain a better understanding of what this idea i had would entail.
as for thinking my entire idea was dumb, oh well.

[Godogma]

Friendly is something I am more often when I don't have a migraine, I've had this one since yesterday. I'll try and be more friendly later.

Sorry you had to make your first acquaintance with me while I'm fighting one, it wasn't my intention to be an ass.

[SAMASzero]

Some are my ideas, some are responses to the rest of y'all:

I don't mind bringing SDC combat back up more. In fact I have a few ideas on that -- The most common MDC weapon will be similar to the BigBore guns from New West and the Black Market sourcebook. They would be capable of firing both SDC and MDC rounds. Railguns are much rarer. Replace about 80-90% of the ones we have now with machineguns like the one in Merc Ops.

MDC weapons are not quite widespread, but nowhere near rare. The problem is that they are hard to replenish. Expensive and time-consuming to charge and replace. The price from SB1R stays the same, but note that it takes hours just to charge a single E-clip. MDC weaponry is not so much rare as it is reserved: You don't pull out the big guns unless absolutely necessary.

Once change I would make to armor is to make it semi-modular: most modern suits of armor consist of a jumpsuit or body glove that can act as ready SDC armor. This can be augmented with extra SDC or MDC pads/plates to make the suits we all know and love.

Monsters and D-Bees are, as a rule, done to a 70-30% SDC to MDC. This may change from location to location. Generally speaking, areas with heavy Magic concentration tend to have higher ratios of MDC monsters.

I'm a little annoyed by the whole "More Apocalypse! More Scavengers!" That's what Chaos Earth is for. Rifts is pulling itself out of that. About nations fighting the wilderness and each other to carve out a place in the world.

[Bill]

Some are my ideas, some are responses to the rest of y'all:

I don't mind bringing SDC combat back up more. In fact I have a few ideas on that -- The most common MDC weapon will be similar to the BigBore guns from New West and the Black Market sourcebook. They would be capable of firing both SDC and MDC rounds. Railguns are much rarer. Replace about 80-90% of the ones we have now with machineguns like the one in Merc Ops.

MDC weapons are not quite widespread, but nowhere near rare. The problem is that they are hard to replenish. Expensive and time-consuming to charge and replace. The price from SB1R stays the same, but note that it takes hours just to charge a single E-clip. MDC weaponry is not so much rare as it is reserved: You don't pull out the big guns unless absolutely necessary.

Once change I would make to armor is to make it semi-modular: most modern suits of armor consist of a jumpsuit or body glove that can act as ready SDC armor. This can be augmented with extra SDC or MDC pads/plates to make the suits we all know and love.

Monsters and D-Bees are, as a rule, done to a 70-30% SDC to MDC. This may change from location to location. Generally speaking, areas with heavy Magic concentration tend to have higher ratios of MDC monsters.

I'm a little annoyed by the whole "More Apocalypse! More Scavengers!" That's what Chaos Earth is for. Rifts is pulling itself out of that. About nations fighting the wilderness and each other to carve out a place in the world.

All good tweaks to the availability of MDC, but what would you do to the story?

[Godogma]

I'm a little annoyed by the whole "More Apocalypse! More Scavengers!" That's what Chaos Earth is for. Rifts is pulling itself out of that. About nations fighting the wilderness and each other to carve out a place in the world.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This! Is a statement I quite agree with, Chaos Earth is the Post-Apocalypse setting not Rifts. Rifts is 300 years after the apocalypse. I'm honestly not enthused with the Bandito Arms Big-Bore stuff; I wasn't impressed when it first came out and I'm not impressed now. I'm definitely not impressed by the Black Market's K series and the way their guns are essentially lower powered compared to all the other manufacturers on the continent when Bandito Arms has Area-51 to make stuff with.

I think it dropped the ball as far as that was concerned, especially when all they have to do is have a Psi-Tech touch the stuff and then follow how it was made by the other company. But all that is neither here nor there and isn't really pertinent to the topic.

I don't think that MD weapons and stuff are that serious as far as problems go; I recommend dropping it down to being 20(or 25 or 50 or whatever) SDC per 1 MDC if you think it needs to be changed personally instead of applying percentages of it to make stuff more in par with SDC weapons.

[flatline]

I'm a little annoyed by the whole "More Apocalypse! More Scavengers!" That's what Chaos Earth is for. Rifts is pulling itself out of that. About nations fighting the wilderness and each other to carve out a place in the world.

True! Rifts is a post-post-apocalypse world. If you want a post-apocalypse world, go play Chaos Earth (or whatever, there are dozens of those settings).

--flatline

[Godogma]

I'm a little annoyed by the whole "More Apocalypse! More Scavengers!" That's what Chaos Earth is for. Rifts is pulling itself out of that. About nations fighting the wilderness and each other to carve out a place in the world.

True! Rifts is a post-post-apocalypse world. If you want a post-apocalypse world, go play Chaos Earth (or whatever, there are dozens of those settings).

--flatline

A post-post-apocalyptic world where the majority of the population has a medieval tech level.

Actually a good number of civilizations are more like the early 1900s/late 1800s technology wise and a good many are much higher.

[Bill]

In Rifts 1, yes. Perhaps the divide is greater in your vision of Rifts 2. Techno-Oligarchy hive cities versus post-magical anarcho-syndical nomads? Could be fun.