What is supernatural magic transformation/nightbane tattoo?

[V-Origin]

What is transformation?

In my opinion, transformation is the total change from one life-form into another. A human into a vampire. A human into stone. A human into a frog. A human into mist.

Putting a True Atlantean or Changeling into the Dunk Tank or on the Gene-Splicer's table isn't really transforming them. Modifying them maybe but it certainly isn't changing a True Atlantean or Changeling into a horse or a dog.

Even a bio-borg is basically the modification of the basic life-form. It is like buying a normal car and upgrading it into super-fast sports car with better engines, wheels, etc. You aren't really changing the car into an air-plane or even a dog.

Now that would be transformation beyond the powers of even the Splurgoth or the Gene-Splicers.

Also on a relevant note.. can nightbanes get tattoos?

[Shark_Force]

if there was a clearly defined answer available, you wouldn't need to ask the question in the first place.

we do know a few things that count. flesh to stone, for example, or metamorphosis spells, or spells that change the size of something. what we don't know is where beyond the specific examples given the line is drawn. it's completely vague, and doesn't really follow any clearly visible logic.

what is a supernatural or magical transformation beyond those few specific examples is completely based on handwavium. whatever the GM in your game thinks is in the category is in the category. there is no clearly defined rule to help you here.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Like with what SF said, It depends on the specifics.

TA's and a Bio-Wizard tank: not is going to happen cause it's magic.
TA's also do not respond to hero powers that change them.
TA's and gene manipulation.....This is where things get if'y cause if the maipulators use magic to do the manipulation then nada is going to happen. But if they use tech then it is 'plausible'. (plausible: the GM of that game decides she/he wants it or not.)


With say a NB, nothing is going to happen to the NB with both magical transformation and tech changes.

In the area of "let's say":Even if the facade can be changed by tech means, the changes will be erased with cycling through their becoming.

[Shark_Force]

Like with what SF said, It depends on the specifics.

TA's and a Bio-Wizard tank: not is going to happen cause it's magic.
TA's also do not respond to hero powers that change them.
TA's and gene manipulation.....This is where things get if'y cause if the maipulators use magic to do the manipulation then nada is going to happen. But if they use tech then it is 'plausible'. (plausible: the GM of that game decides she/he wants it or not.)


With say a NB, nothing is going to happen to the NB with both magical transformation and tech changes.

In the area of "let's say":Even if the facade can be changed by tech means, the changes will be erased with cycling through their becoming.

it gets even more vague than that. the ability in the true atlantean race starts off by saying immune to all physical transformations. it then gives a list and finishes the list with adding in all supernatural and magical transformations, and the list only includes magical effects, which certainly *implies* that true atlanteans are only immune to magical methods of transformation (and makes it even more obvious that whatever it does mean, it certainly doesn't mean what it says it means, since things like aging, taking damage, and metabolizing food or oxygen are arguably all forms of physical transformation), but the description does in fact say physical transformations, which would likely include those resulting from scientific gene therapy or plastic surgery... *if* we could actually trust the ability description (which, in my opinion, we cannot).

like i said: when it comes to what exactly the books mean, your guess is as good as mine, which is as good as anyone else's... so long as the guess isn't that it actually means what it says. what a mess.

[Daeglan]

Not to mention tattoos are a physical/magical transformation.

[V-Origin]

Bio-Wizardry is magicial transformation no matter how scientific it sounds.... Am I wrong?

True Atlanteans can be changed into bio-borg/splurgoth juicers as shown in juicer book 11. So it is official that TA are susceptible to bio-wizardry.

[V-Origin]

Like with what SF said, It depends on the specifics.

TA's and a Bio-Wizard tank: not is going to happen cause it's magic.
TA's also do not respond to hero powers that change them.
TA's and gene manipulation.....This is where things get if'y cause if the maipulators use magic to do the manipulation then nada is going to happen. But if they use tech then it is 'plausible'. (plausible: the GM of that game decides she/he wants it or not.)


With say a NB, nothing is going to happen to the NB with both magical transformation and tech changes.

In the area of "let's say":Even if the facade can be changed by tech means, the changes will be erased with cycling through their becoming.

1) Bio-Wizardry is not magic. It is a magical science. There is a difference between magical science and magical spells.

2) TAs are not invulnerable to heroic powers that change them. They are only invulnerable to magic or supernatural transformation
spell or enchantment. Heroic powers found in HU are NOT magic or supernatural transformation spell or enchantment.

3) Gene Manipulation ... again regardless of whether it is magic or tech, gene manipulation is still a science and not some mere supernatural or magic transformation spell or enchantment.

4) NightBanes - Both descriptions for nightbanes and true atlanteans described them as ..

"Cannot be physically transformed by any means,including but not limited to the following: metamorphosis potions and spells, the transformation ritual, vampire transformation, petrification, turn to mist, growth/reduction spells/potions/super powers, curses, wishes, or any other form of magic or supernatural transformation spell or enchantment."

But as argued before, the above are all magical spells or enchantments.. there is nothing scientific at all compared to the science of bio-wizardry and gene manipulation..

furthermore, there is no canon or even faq which states that there is nothing preventing a nightbane or true atlantean from being modified by gene-manipulation and bio-wizardry

lastly, gene manipulation and bio wizardry are not transformations, they are modifications.

so i would house rule that true atlanteans and nightbanes can be modded by gene manipulation and bio wizardry unless proven otherwise..

[V-Origin]

Not to mention tattoos are a physical/magical transformation.

can nightbanes get tattoos?

[Johnathan]

Not to mention tattoos are a physical/magical transformation.

can nightbanes get tattoos?

Is there anything that strictly says bane are incapable of getting magic tats? No... Not really. However, due to their mystical nature and natural immunity to transformation abilities, I would say that the most they could recieve is six and they would only have access to those tattoos in their facade form. Once they switched over to their Morphus those tattoos would not be accessible. I do not believe there is anything, within canon, to directly support this claim, so you may consider this personal opinion if you so wish.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'm sort of curious where the idea that bio-wizardy is a magical science or that it being a "science" would even matter comes from.

[Johnathan]

Bio-Wizardry is magicial transformation no matter how scientific it sounds.... Am I wrong?

True Atlanteans can be changed into bio-borg/splurgoth juicers as shown in juicer book 11. So it is official that TA are susceptible to bio-wizardry.

Juicer book is ten-and you assuming that the character depicted is in fact an Atlantean-(though I honestly don't know if your right or wrong on this matter)

Have any text to back up your claim I will be looking myself as well...

Thanks-

Though I am unsure of the page number, True Atlantean is a race that is list as being a viable race for the Maxi-Inducer Symbiote. Stating that the candidate would live for approximately 25 years as a Maxi-Killer (Symbiote Juicer).

This was my argument for how a True Atlantean my be, at least partially, susceptible to Bio-Wizardy modifications. However, this would only apply to Symbiotes, parasites and other modifications. This would not apply to transmutations of any kind in my book.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Like with what SF said, It depends on the specifics.

TA's and a Bio-Wizard tank: not is going to happen cause it's magic.
TA's also do not respond to hero powers that change them.
TA's and gene manipulation.....This is where things get if'y cause if the manipulators use magic to do the manipulation then nada is going to happen. But if they use tech then it is 'plausible'. (plausible: the GM of that game decides she/he wants it or not.)


With say a NB, nothing is going to happen to the NB with both magical transformation and tech changes.

In the area of "let's say":Even if the facade can be changed by tech means, the changes will be erased with cycling through their becoming.

1) Bio-Wizardry is not magic. It is a magical science. There is a difference between magical science and magical spells.

2) TAs are not invulnerable to heroic powers that change them. They are only invulnerable to magic or supernatural transformation
spell or enchantment. Heroic powers found in HU are NOT magic or supernatural transformation spell or enchantment.

3) Gene Manipulation ... again regardless of whether it is magic ]or tech, gene manipulation is still a science and not some mere supernatural or magic transformation spell or enchantment.

4) NightBanes - Both descriptions for nightbanes and true atlanteans described them as ..

"Cannot be physically transformed by any means,including but not limited to the following: metamorphosis potions and spells, the transformation ritual, vampire transformation, petrification, turn to mist, growth/reduction spells/potions/super powers, curses, wishes, or any other form of magic or supernatural transformation spell or enchantment."

But as argued before, the above are all magical spells or enchantments.. there is nothing scientific at all compared to the science of bio-wizardry and gene manipulation..

furthermore, there is no canon or even FAQs which states that there is nothing preventing a nightbane or true atlantean from being modified by gene-manipulation and bio-wizardry

lastly, gene manipulation and bio wizardry are not transformations, they are modifications.

so i would house rule that true atlanteans and nightbanes can be mod'ed by gene manipulation and bio wizardry unless proven otherwise..

1) Because Bio-wizardry uses MAGIC.....(pauses to make sure the reader gets the point about the word MAGIC) to make the changes in the subject, so it is MAGIC transformation! this is Duh simple.
2) hero powers, again this is duh simple
3) Using magic to effect a transformation is still using magic to effect a transformation, no matter how small those transformations are. There is no difference between the macro scale and the micro scale.
4) Now if you take the listing of the immunities about transformation as trying to cover all the bases in which some munchkin will try to get around the immunities about being transformed you get the listings that were written.

So Get Over trying to get around the limitation set forth.
-----------------------------

House rules do not effect the canon. If in your game you want to make changes to the rules that make it possible for you to muck about in magical transformations of those races that are by canon rules immune to such transformations, then that is your choice in the games YOU gm.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'm sort of curious where the idea that bio-wizardy is a magical science or that it being a "science" would even matter comes from.

I sighted three sources from the text that point to what your saying; or are do you mean something else? Please Continue?

It was directed at Crystaleye, not you.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Not to mention tattoos are a physical/magical transformation.

can nightbanes get tattoos?

Normal tattoos.....there facade before their becoming defiantly can. After their 1st becoming.... up to that game's GM. I would lean toward the facade still able to get tattoos even after their 1st becoming. But if the Player is being a donkey about it, no.
Their morphus.....no.

Magic tattoos (as per T-Men tattoos)...no Nightbane are not not on the list of races that magic tattoos can be applied to. (dumbs the answer down: NB are not human)

Magic tattoos (as per the magic is there just to make them stay).....No.
however, I would lean to let them work if the player was not being a donkey.

[Johnathan]

Magic tattoos (as per the magic is there just to make them stay).....No.
However, I would lean to let them work if the player was not being a donkey.

Can I sig this? It made me LOL so hard I have a headache... And I think a nose bleed.

[The Beast]

I'm sort of curious where the idea that bio-wizardy is a magical science or that it being a "science" would even matter comes from.

Rifts World Book 2: Atlantis, page 106, first sentence of the first complete paragraph on the right hand side under the Bio-wizardry section.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'm sort of curious where the idea that bio-wizardy is a magical science or that it being a "science" would even matter comes from.

Rifts World Book 2: Atlantis, page 106, first sentence of the first complete paragraph on the right hand side under the Bio-wizardry section.

True, but that dosn't quite address my point. It wasn't so much "is bio-wizardy a magical science" (And you'll note, the line you cite as a question mark by science, indicating it may not be), but that even if it IS a magical science, it would have no bearing on immunity to magical transformations as it's still magic.

[Faceless Dude]

What is transformation?

In my opinion, transformation is the total change from one life-form into another. A human into a vampire. A human into stone. A human into a frog. A human into mist.

Putting a True Atlantean or Changeling into the Dunk Tank or on the Gene-Splicer's table isn't really transforming them. Modifying them maybe but it certainly isn't changing a True Atlantean or Changeling into a horse or a dog.

Even a bio-borg is basically the modification of the basic life-form. It is like buying a normal car and upgrading it into super-fast sports car with better engines, wheels, etc. You aren't really changing the car into an air-plane or even a dog.

Now that would be transformation beyond the powers of even the Splurgoth or the Gene-Splicers.

Also on a relevant note.. can nightbanes get tattoos?

Per the Dyval dimension book, putting a True Atlantean into a bio-wizard "dunk tank" dissolves them.

[Tor]

Per the Dyval dimension book, putting a True Atlantean into a bio-wizard "dunk tank" dissolves them.

Dang I forgot that, that's under the 2nd realm that belongs to the hunchbacked Diabolus fellow right? Run by one of his Horror Regents?

[V-Origin]

What is transformation?

In my opinion, transformation is the total change from one life-form into another. A human into a vampire. A human into stone. A human into a frog. A human into mist.

Putting a True Atlantean or Changeling into the Dunk Tank or on the Gene-Splicer's table isn't really transforming them. Modifying them maybe but it certainly isn't changing a True Atlantean or Changeling into a horse or a dog.

Even a bio-borg is basically the modification of the basic life-form. It is like buying a normal car and upgrading it into super-fast sports car with better engines, wheels, etc. You aren't really changing the car into an air-plane or even a dog.

Now that would be transformation beyond the powers of even the Splurgoth or the Gene-Splicers.

Also on a relevant note.. can nightbanes get tattoos?

Per the Dyval dimension book, putting a True Atlantean into a bio-wizard "dunk tank" dissolves them.

The Dyval Diabolus's art of bio-wizardry is totally different from the Splurgoth's art of bio-wizardry. Diabolus' art is sheer pure magic but Splurgoth's bio-wizardry is a mix of magic and science!

Dyval Lord Diabolus' Magic Bio-Wizardry

Rifts Dyval Dimension Book 11 page 119 - Diabolus has access to arcane magicks that can alter living flesh, be it S.D.C. or Mega-Damage beings, mortals or immortals. In addition to dark and forgotten magicks, he also uses symbiotes and parasites acquired from Atlantis and his own unique brand of Bio-Wizard magic. The only knowledge Diabolus does not have is scientific genetic engineering. Though he finds the science of genetics interesting, he prefers the quick results of magic. Ironically, he'd like to capture a Gene-Splicer or two and study them as specimens for magical genetic transfiguration as well as to study their brand of science. So far, the elusive beings have always been a step ahead of the Deevil Lord, and a good thing too. Who knows what evil Diabolus could set loose on the Megaverse if he also incorporated the science of the Gene Splicers?

page 120 - Deep within the structure are the magic pools used to transmute the animals into something much more dangerous. These magic baths have properties similar to the Bio-Wizard vats of the Splugorth. In addition to the pools, there are levels where there are hundreds of tubes filled with the magic transforming liquid.

Splurgoth's Magical Science Bio-Wizardry

Rifts Atlantis 106 - Sensitive players may find this strange and often disfiguring biological magic/science disturbing and elect not to include it in their games.

However, bio-wizardry is unique as it combines living organisms with other "living" creatures and/or with machines and magic to empower the living.

Bio-wizard devices, surgery, implants, limbs, parasites, microbes, symbiotes, and magic are all quite common in the cities of the Splugorth's Atlantis.

Bio-wizardry is the magic (a science?) of enslavement (the Splugorth's specialty) and genetic manipulation. It is frequently used to augment, transform, deform, mutilate, and enslave.

Summary

Think of Diabolus' bio-vats as some kind of magic circle where the victim will be changed by magic. Think of Splurgoth's bio-vats as machines using magical energies. Thus I will rule that TAs and Nightbanes can be augumented but not transformed using Splurgoth's bio-vats.

[V-Origin]

I'm sort of curious where the idea that bio-wizardy is a magical science or that it being a "science" would even matter comes from.

Rifts World Book 2: Atlantis, page 106, first sentence of the first complete paragraph on the right hand side under the Bio-wizardry section.

True, but that dosn't quite address my point. It wasn't so much "is bio-wizardy a magical science" (And you'll note, the line you cite as a question mark by science, indicating it may not be), but that even if it IS a magical science, it would have no bearing on immunity to magical transformations as it's still magic.

Magic is totally different from a science using magic energies.

Do the dimensional elders use magic or science?

[V-Origin]

Not to mention tattoos are a physical/magical transformation.

can nightbanes get tattoos?

Normal tattoos.....there facade before their becoming defiantly can. After their 1st becoming.... up to that game's GM. I would lean toward the facade still able to get tattoos even after their 1st becoming. But if the Player is being a donkey about it, no.
Their morphus.....no.

Magic tattoos (as per T-Men tattoos)...no Nightbane are not not on the list of races that magic tattoos can be applied to. (dumbs the answer down: NB are not human)

Magic tattoos (as per the magic is there just to make them stay).....No.
however, I would lean to let them work if the player was not being a donkey.

Where does it say that NB are not human?

[V-Origin]

Like with what SF said, It depends on the specifics.

TA's and a Bio-Wizard tank: not is going to happen cause it's magic.
TA's also do not respond to hero powers that change them.
TA's and gene manipulation.....This is where things get if'y cause if the maipulators use magic to do the manipulation then nada is going to happen. But if they use tech then it is 'plausible'. (plausible: the GM of that game decides she/he wants it or not.)


With say a NB, nothing is going to happen to the NB with both magical transformation and tech changes.

In the area of "let's say":Even if the facade can be changed by tech means, the changes will be erased with cycling through their becoming.

1) Bio-Wizardry is not magic. It is a magical science. There is a difference between magical science and magical spells.

2) TAs are not invulnerable to heroic powers that change them. They are only invulnerable to magic or supernatural transformation
spell or enchantment. Heroic powers found in HU are NOT magic or supernatural transformation spell or enchantment.

3) Gene Manipulation ... again regardless of whether it is magic or tech, gene manipulation is still a science and not some mere supernatural or magic transformation spell or enchantment.

4) NightBanes - Both descriptions for nightbanes and true atlanteans described them as ..

"Cannot be physically transformed by any means,including but not limited to the following: metamorphosis potions and spells, the transformation ritual, vampire transformation, petrification, turn to mist, growth/reduction spells/potions/super powers, curses, wishes, or any other form of magic or supernatural transformation spell or enchantment."

But as argued before, the above are all magical spells or enchantments.. there is nothing scientific at all compared to the science of bio-wizardry and gene manipulation..

furthermore, there is no canon or even faq which states that there is nothing preventing a nightbane or true atlantean from being modified by gene-manipulation and bio-wizardry

lastly, gene manipulation and bio wizardry are not transformations, they are modifications.

so i would house rule that true atlanteans and nightbanes can be modded by gene manipulation and bio wizardry unless proven otherwise..

You may be right-

I am looking now; but for point of discussion: What if an S.D.C. Atlantean wanted to get a Bio-wizard modification and that modification was for supernatural physical attributes; and M.D.C. wouldn't this qualify for a Supernatural Transformation?

What do you think?

An Atlantean transforming into a Dragon would be considered as a supernatural transformation.

An Atlantean getting an MDC conversion is nothing more than mundane modification.

[Faceless Dude]

What is transformation?

In my opinion, transformation is the total change from one life-form into another. A human into a vampire. A human into stone. A human into a frog. A human into mist.

Putting a True Atlantean or Changeling into the Dunk Tank or on the Gene-Splicer's table isn't really transforming them. Modifying them maybe but it certainly isn't changing a True Atlantean or Changeling into a horse or a dog.

Even a bio-borg is basically the modification of the basic life-form. It is like buying a normal car and upgrading it into super-fast sports car with better engines, wheels, etc. You aren't really changing the car into an air-plane or even a dog.

Now that would be transformation beyond the powers of even the Splurgoth or the Gene-Splicers.

Also on a relevant note.. can nightbanes get tattoos?

Per the Dyval dimension book, putting a True Atlantean into a bio-wizard "dunk tank" dissolves them.

The Dyval Diabolus's art of bio-wizardry is totally different from the Splurgoth's art of bio-wizardry. Diabolus' art is sheer pure magic but Splurgoth's bio-wizardry is a mix of magic and science!

Dyval Lord Diabolus' Magic Bio-Wizardry

Rifts Dyval Dimension Book 11 page 119 - Diabolus has access to arcane magicks that can alter living flesh, be it S.D.C. or Mega-Damage beings, mortals or immortals. In addition to dark and forgotten magicks, he also uses symbiotes and parasites acquired from Atlantis and his own unique brand of Bio-Wizard magic. The only knowledge Diabolus does not have is scientific genetic engineering. Though he finds the science of genetics interesting, he prefers the quick results of magic. Ironically, he'd like to capture a Gene-Splicer or two and study them as specimens for magical genetic transfiguration as well as to study their brand of science. So far, the elusive beings have always been a step ahead of the Deevil Lord, and a good thing too. Who knows what evil Diabolus could set loose on the Megaverse if he also incorporated the science of the Gene Splicers?

page 120 - Deep within the structure are the magic pools used to transmute the animals into something much more dangerous. These magic baths have properties similar to the Bio-Wizard vats of the Splugorth. In addition to the pools, there are levels where there are hundreds of tubes filled with the magic transforming liquid.

Splurgoth's Magical Science Bio-Wizardry

Rifts Atlantis 106 - Sensitive players may find this strange and often disfiguring biological magic/science disturbing and elect not to include it in their games.

However, bio-wizardry is unique as it combines living organisms with other "living" creatures and/or with machines and magic to empower the living.

Bio-wizard devices, surgery, implants, limbs, parasites, microbes, symbiotes, and magic are all quite common in the cities of the Splugorth's Atlantis.

Bio-wizardry is the magic (a science?) of enslavement (the Splugorth's specialty) and genetic manipulation. It is frequently used to augment, transform, deform, mutilate, and enslave.

Summary

Think of Diabolus' bio-vats as some kind of magic circle where the victim will be changed by magic. Think of Splurgoth's bio-vats as machines using magical energies. Thus I will rule that TAs and Nightbanes can be augumented but not transformed using Splurgoth's bio-vats.

whatever gets you the most plusses, I guess

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'm sort of curious where the idea that bio-wizardy is a magical science or that it being a "science" would even matter comes from.

Rifts World Book 2: Atlantis, page 106, first sentence of the first complete paragraph on the right hand side under the Bio-wizardry section.

True, but that dosn't quite address my point. It wasn't so much "is bio-wizardy a magical science" (And you'll note, the line you cite as a question mark by science, indicating it may not be), but that even if it IS a magical science, it would have no bearing on immunity to magical transformations as it's still magic.

Magic is totally different from a science using magic energies.

Considering it still uses magic to produce it's effect, and therefore is magical in nature, the immunity still applies. unless you have some proof to the contrary, magic is magic, even if you do distill some of it down to a science.

Do the dimensional elders use magic or science?

I don't recall where such a group is mentioned. nor am I certain why it would make a difference to this argument.

[V-Origin]

I'm sort of curious where the idea that bio-wizardy is a magical science or that it being a "science" would even matter comes from.

Rifts World Book 2: Atlantis, page 106, first sentence of the first complete paragraph on the right hand side under the Bio-wizardry section.

True, but that dosn't quite address my point. It wasn't so much "is bio-wizardy a magical science" (And you'll note, the line you cite as a question mark by science, indicating it may not be), but that even if it IS a magical science, it would have no bearing on immunity to magical transformations as it's still magic.

Magic is totally different from a science using magic energies.

Considering it still uses magic to produce it's effect, and therefore is magical in nature, the immunity still applies. unless you have some proof to the contrary, magic is magic, even if you do distill some of it down to a science.

Diabolus doesn't use gene-tinkering to transform his experiments, this is why it is magic. There is transformation of his experiments without the need to tinker with the experiments' genes. Totally no difference between Diabolus' magic pools/bio-vats, metamorphosis spells or the Old One circle of elven transformation found in the PF book 2 Old ones complex.

The Splurgoth use a combination of magic and science to tinker with the genes of their experiments. No difference between Splurgoth's gene-tinkering and Gene-Splicers' gene-tinkering even though the Splurgoth use magic to tinker with their experiments' genes.

Ultimately, it is the fact that rifts books 2 atlantis has included the words "science" and "genetic manipulation" in its description of the splurgoth's bio-wizardry which makes it totally possible for True Atlanteans and Nightbanes to be tinkered by the Splurgoth.

There is a reason why the Palladium Writers specifically state that Diabolus do not know gene-technologies. They want to differentiate between Diabolus' bio-wizardry and the Splurgoth's bio-wizardry.

Why not say Diabolus' bio-wizardry and the Splurgoth's bio-wizardry is one and the same instead of being just "very similar"? Cos the writers want the Splurgoth's bio-wizardry to be a combination of magic and science instead of being just a purely magical process.

Do the dimensional elders use magic or science?

I don't recall where such a group is mentioned. nor am I certain why it would make a difference to this argument.

Rifts Dimension Book 14 - "It is an accepted fact the civilizations of the Elder Races were so advanced in the areas of science, technology and magic, that the line between magic and science had been extinguished. Elder Races were said to work miracles and used their technology and magic to explore other galaxies and alien dimensions."

In the area of bio-wizardry, you can say that the Splurgoths are quickly removing the barriers between magic and science in a similar manner to how the Elder Races in the Thundercloud Galaxy has removed the barriers between magic and science.

Which is why Splurgothian bio-wizardry can be used on nightbanes and true atlanteans as it is not a purely magical process.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Considering it still uses magic to produce it's effect, and therefore is magical in nature, the immunity still applies. unless you have some proof to the contrary, magic is magic, even if you do distill some of it down to a science.

Diabolus doesn't use gene-tinkering to transform his experiments, this is why it is magic. There is transformation of his experiments without the need to tinker with the experiments' genes. Totally no difference between Diabolus' magic pools/bio-vats, metamorphosis spells or the Old One circle of elven transformation found in the PF book 2 Old ones complex.

The Splurgoth use a combination of magic and science to tinker with the genes of their experiments. No difference between Splurgoth's gene-tinkering and Gene-Splicers' gene-tinkering even though the Splurgoth use magic to tinker with their experiments' genes.

Ultimately, it is the fact that rifts books 2 atlantis has included the words "science" and "genetic manipulation" in its description of the splurgoth's bio-wizardry which makes it totally possible for True Atlanteans and Nightbanes to be tinkered by the Splurgoth.

There is a reason why the Palladium Writers specifically state that Diabolus do not know gene-technologies. They want to differentiate between Diabolus' bio-wizardry and the Splurgoth's bio-wizardry.

Why not say Diabolus' bio-wizardry and the Splurgoth's bio-wizardry is one and the same instead of being just "very similar"? Cos the writers want the Splurgoth's bio-wizardry to be a combination of magic and science instead of being just a purely magical process.

Well, yes, what Diabolus does is in fact different in nature from what the splurgorth do. i'm sure the authors even intended for that to be clear. but nothing indicates that one of them wasn't still magic, in fact, both explicitly use magic, and hence, TA immunity still applies.

Do the dimensional elders use magic or science?

I don't recall where such a group is mentioned. nor am I certain why it would make a difference to this argument.

Rifts Dimension Book 14 - "It is an accepted fact the civilizations of the Elder Races were so advanced in the areas of science, technology and magic, that the line between magic and science had been extinguished. Elder Races were said to work miracles and used their technology and magic to explore other galaxies and alien dimensions."

In the area of bio-wizardry, you can say that the Splurgoths are quickly removing the barriers between magic and science in a similar manner to how the Elder Races in the Thundercloud Galaxy has removed the barriers between magic and science.

Which is why Splurgothian bio-wizardry can be used on nightbanes and true atlanteans as it is not a purely magical process.

So why do you call them the Dimensional elders? the Dimensional threw me off.

and while you could say that, you'd be wrong. nothing indicates that teh splurgorth are even approaching elder levels of ability. and in fact the very discription of bio-wizardy rules it out. it still relies on magic energy to produce an effect, so things immune to magic energy are immune to it.

[V-Origin]

Like with what SF said, It depends on the specifics.

TA's and a Bio-Wizard tank: not is going to happen cause it's magic.
TA's also do not respond to hero powers that change them.
TA's and gene manipulation.....This is where things get if'y cause if the maipulators use magic to do the manipulation then nada is going to happen. But if they use tech then it is 'plausible'. (plausible: the GM of that game decides she/he wants it or not.)


With say a NB, nothing is going to happen to the NB with both magical transformation and tech changes.

In the area of "let's say":Even if the facade can be changed by tech means, the changes will be erased with cycling through their becoming.

1) Bio-Wizardry is not magic. It is a magical science. There is a difference between magical science and magical spells.

2) TAs are not invulnerable to heroic powers that change them. They are only invulnerable to magic or supernatural transformation
spell or enchantment. Heroic powers found in HU are NOT magic or supernatural transformation spell or enchantment.

3) Gene Manipulation ... again regardless of whether it is magic or tech, gene manipulation is still a science and not some mere supernatural or magic transformation spell or enchantment.

4) NightBanes - Both descriptions for nightbanes and true atlanteans described them as ..

"Cannot be physically transformed by any means,including but not limited to the following: metamorphosis potions and spells, the transformation ritual, vampire transformation, petrification, turn to mist, growth/reduction spells/potions/super powers, curses, wishes, or any other form of magic or supernatural transformation spell or enchantment."

But as argued before, the above are all magical spells or enchantments.. there is nothing scientific at all compared to the science of bio-wizardry and gene manipulation..

furthermore, there is no canon or even faq which states that there is nothing preventing a nightbane or true atlantean from being modified by gene-manipulation and bio-wizardry

lastly, gene manipulation and bio wizardry are not transformations, they are modifications.

so i would house rule that true atlanteans and nightbanes can be modded by gene manipulation and bio wizardry unless proven otherwise..

You may be right-

I am looking now; but for point of discussion: What if an S.D.C. Atlantean wanted to get a Bio-wizard modification and that modification was for supernatural physical attributes; and M.D.C. wouldn't this qualify for a Supernatural Transformation?

What do you think?

Bio-Wizardry is magicial transformation no matter how scientific it sounds.... Am I wrong?

True Atlanteans can be changed into bio-borg/splurgoth juicers as shown in juicer book 11. So it is official that TA are susceptible to bio-wizardry.

Juicer book is ten-and you assuming that the character depicted is in fact an Atlantean-(though I honestly don't know if your right or wrong on this matter)

Have any text to back up your claim I will be looking myself as well...

Thanks-

Though I am unsure of the page number, True Atlantean is a race that is list as being a viable race for the Maxi-Inducer Symbiote. Stating that the candidate would live for approximately 25 years as a Maxi-Killer (Symbiote Juicer).

This was my argument for how a True Atlantean my be, at least partially, susceptible to Bio-Wizardy modifications. However, this would only apply to Symbiotes, parasites and other modifications. This would not apply to transmutations of any kind in my book.

Let's cover these two posts together.

First off, the maxi-killer splurgoth juicer conversion is a bio-wizardry process. Transmutation into a MDC mega being by dunking yourself in a splurgoth gene manipulation vat is also a bio-wizardry process. Both processes use magic.

You can't say TA can use the former bio-wizardry process but he can't use the latter bio-wizardry process. It is either TAs can be modified by ALL splurgoth bio-wizardry processes or they can't.

There is simply no rule in canon or faq which states that one form of splurgoth bio-wizardry process (maxi-killer) is different from another form of splurgoth bio-wizardry process (transmutation). All of them are science processes which use the energies of magic.

If the True Atlanteans are able to be modified by one splurgoth bio-wizardry process, then they are able to be modified by all other splurgoth bio-wizardry processes as well unless there is evidence to the contrary which none of the books or faq has show such evidence yet.

[V-Origin]

Considering it still uses magic to produce it's effect, and therefore is magical in nature, the immunity still applies. unless you have some proof to the contrary, magic is magic, even if you do distill some of it down to a science.

Diabolus doesn't use gene-tinkering to transform his experiments, this is why it is magic. There is transformation of his experiments without the need to tinker with the experiments' genes. Totally no difference between Diabolus' magic pools/bio-vats, metamorphosis spells or the Old One circle of elven transformation found in the PF book 2 Old ones complex.

The Splurgoth use a combination of magic and science to tinker with the genes of their experiments. No difference between Splurgoth's gene-tinkering and Gene-Splicers' gene-tinkering even though the Splurgoth use magic to tinker with their experiments' genes.

Ultimately, it is the fact that rifts books 2 atlantis has included the words "science" and "genetic manipulation" in its description of the splurgoth's bio-wizardry which makes it totally possible for True Atlanteans and Nightbanes to be tinkered by the Splurgoth.

There is a reason why the Palladium Writers specifically state that Diabolus do not know gene-technologies. They want to differentiate between Diabolus' bio-wizardry and the Splurgoth's bio-wizardry.

Why not say Diabolus' bio-wizardry and the Splurgoth's bio-wizardry is one and the same instead of being just "very similar"? Cos the writers want the Splurgoth's bio-wizardry to be a combination of magic and science instead of being just a purely magical process.

Well, yes, what Diabolus does is in fact different in nature from what the splurgorth do. i'm sure the authors even intended for that to be clear. but nothing indicates that one of them wasn't still magic, in fact, both explicitly use magic, and hence, TA immunity still applies.

Do the dimensional elders use magic or science?

I don't recall where such a group is mentioned. nor am I certain why it would make a difference to this argument.

Rifts Dimension Book 14 - "It is an accepted fact the civilizations of the Elder Races were so advanced in the areas of science, technology and magic, that the line between magic and science had been extinguished. Elder Races were said to work miracles and used their technology and magic to explore other galaxies and alien dimensions."

In the area of bio-wizardry, you can say that the Splurgoths are quickly removing the barriers between magic and science in a similar manner to how the Elder Races in the Thundercloud Galaxy has removed the barriers between magic and science.

Which is why Splurgothian bio-wizardry can be used on nightbanes and true atlanteans as it is not a purely magical process.

So why do you call them the Dimensional elders? the Dimensional threw me off.

and while you could say that, you'd be wrong. nothing indicates that teh splurgorth are even approaching elder levels of ability. and in fact the very discription of bio-wizardy rules it out. it still relies on magic energy to produce an effect, so things immune to magic energy are immune to it.

If TAs are immune to bio-wizardry, then they shouldn't be able to be transformed into maxi-killers in the first place. But the fact that TAs are able to be transformed into maxi-killers clearly proves my point that TAs and NBs for that matter can be enhanced by Splurgothian bio-wizardry.

[V-Origin]

What is transformation?

In my opinion, transformation is the total change from one life-form into another. A human into a vampire. A human into stone. A human into a frog. A human into mist.

Putting a True Atlantean or Changeling into the Dunk Tank or on the Gene-Splicer's table isn't really transforming them. Modifying them maybe but it certainly isn't changing a True Atlantean or Changeling into a horse or a dog.

Even a bio-borg is basically the modification of the basic life-form. It is like buying a normal car and upgrading it into super-fast sports car with better engines, wheels, etc. You aren't really changing the car into an air-plane or even a dog.

Now that would be transformation beyond the powers of even the Splurgoth or the Gene-Splicers.

Also on a relevant note.. can nightbanes get tattoos?

Per the Dyval dimension book, putting a True Atlantean into a bio-wizard "dunk tank" dissolves them.

The Dyval Diabolus's art of bio-wizardry is totally different from the Splurgoth's art of bio-wizardry. Diabolus' art is sheer pure magic but Splurgoth's bio-wizardry is a mix of magic and science!

Dyval Lord Diabolus' Magic Bio-Wizardry

Rifts Dyval Dimension Book 11 page 119 - Diabolus has access to arcane magicks that can alter living flesh, be it S.D.C. or Mega-Damage beings, mortals or immortals. In addition to dark and forgotten magicks, he also uses symbiotes and parasites acquired from Atlantis and his own unique brand of Bio-Wizard magic. The only knowledge Diabolus does not have is scientific genetic engineering. Though he finds the science of genetics interesting, he prefers the quick results of magic. Ironically, he'd like to capture a Gene-Splicer or two and study them as specimens for magical genetic transfiguration as well as to study their brand of science. So far, the elusive beings have always been a step ahead of the Deevil Lord, and a good thing too. Who knows what evil Diabolus could set loose on the Megaverse if he also incorporated the science of the Gene Splicers?

page 120 - Deep within the structure are the magic pools used to transmute the animals into something much more dangerous. These magic baths have properties similar to the Bio-Wizard vats of the Splugorth. In addition to the pools, there are levels where there are hundreds of tubes filled with the magic transforming liquid.

Splurgoth's Magical Science Bio-Wizardry

Rifts Atlantis 106 - Sensitive players may find this strange and often disfiguring biological magic/science disturbing and elect not to include it in their games.

However, bio-wizardry is unique as it combines living organisms with other "living" creatures and/or with machines and magic to empower the living.

Bio-wizard devices, surgery, implants, limbs, parasites, microbes, symbiotes, and magic are all quite common in the cities of the Splugorth's Atlantis.

Bio-wizardry is the magic (a science?) of enslavement (the Splugorth's specialty) and genetic manipulation. It is frequently used to augment, transform, deform, mutilate, and enslave.

Summary

Think of Diabolus' bio-vats as some kind of magic circle where the victim will be changed by magic. Think of Splurgoth's bio-vats as machines using magical energies. Thus I will rule that TAs and Nightbanes can be augumented but not transformed using Splurgoth's bio-vats.

whatever gets you the most plusses, I guess

I like to add that Diabolus bio-vats can change one life-form into another completely different life-form but splynn's bio-vats are unable to do so becauase apparently, diabolus' bio-vats are superior to splynn's bio-vats.

Rifts Dimension Book 11 Dyval Page 124 - "The Bio-Vats of Diabolus are a superior version of the Bio-Wizards vats of Splynn. His Bio-Vats and Bio-Pools are far more concentrated in their power, and are able to make far more changes than those in Splynn on Rifts Earth. Under controlled conditions just about any kind of physical change and augmentation can take place, even beyond the normal scope of Bio-Wizardry. For instance, Diabolus can take one life form and mold it into a completely different form of life."

This clearly shows that the "normal scope of bio-wizardry" does not involve the molding of one life-form into another completely different form of life.

This also clearly shows that splynn's "normal scope of bio-wizardry" is totally different from Diabolus' brand of bio-wizardry.

Thus TAs are able to be modified by all forms of splynn's bio-wizardry including transmutations in a splynn's bio-vat!

[Nekira Sudacne]

If TAs are immune to bio-wizardry, then they shouldn't be able to be transformed into maxi-killers in the first place. But the fact that TAs are able to be transformed into maxi-killers clearly proves my point that TAs and NBs for that matter can be enhanced by Splurgothian bio-wizardry.

This is what I get for skimming and skipping some posts it seems. I didn't see Jhonathan's mention. Looking it up, it appears JU does settle the debate. True Atlantians can definatly get that and other implants.

[Johnathan]

If TAs are immune to bio-wizardry, then they shouldn't be able to be transformed into maxi-killers in the first place. But the fact that TAs are able to be transformed into maxi-killers clearly proves my point that TAs and NBs for that matter can be enhanced by Splurgothian bio-wizardry.

This is what I get for skimming and skipping some posts it seems. I didn't see Jhonathan's mention. Looking it up, it appears JU does settle the debate. True Atlantians can definatly get that and other implants.

Please, allow me a point before my intent becomes miscontrued for something that it wasn't intended for. My argument, referencing the Maxi-Inducer Symbiote, was to show that True Atlanteans are capable of being augmented through the use of Symbiotes, parasites and "other modifications" of Bio-Wizardry. "Other Modifications" meaning things like transplanting an Eye of Eylor to replace one or both of their original eyes, attaching an arm/leg to replace an appendage that was destroyed, or having armor grafted to their bodies (I use the grafted armor as an example because underneath all that grafted armor is still a soft, squishy Atlantean...). However, the Transmutation process, that actually involves dunking the recipient into a bio-vat, would not work on a True Atlantean, in my opinion. Which, coincidently, seems to be backed by canon, referencing a previous post about bio-vats dissolving TAs.

So, TAs can accept Symbiotes (Maxi-Killer example) and by proxy be affecting by parasites (except probably the Transmuters... Those are arguable). As well as be modified by bio-wizardry in much the same manner they can be modified through cybernetics or bio-systems (both viable options for TAs)... It's just the Transmutation process that wouldn't work on them. So, no changing their size, augmenting their attributes through tansmutation, turning them into MDC beings through transmutation (why bother when tattoo magic is so much more entertaining...?), etc.

Of course, as always, it's your game so run however you want. These are just my observations that follow canon.

[V-Origin]

If TAs are immune to bio-wizardry, then they shouldn't be able to be transformed into maxi-killers in the first place. But the fact that TAs are able to be transformed into maxi-killers clearly proves my point that TAs and NBs for that matter can be enhanced by Splurgothian bio-wizardry.

This is what I get for skimming and skipping some posts it seems. I didn't see Jhonathan's mention. Looking it up, it appears JU does settle the debate. True Atlantians can definatly get that and other implants.

Please, allow me a point before my intent becomes miscontrued for something that it wasn't intended for. My argument, referencing the Maxi-Inducer Symbiote, was to show that True Atlanteans are capable of being augmented through the use of Symbiotes, parasites and "other modifications" of Bio-Wizardry. "Other Modifications" meaning things like transplanting an Eye of Eylor to replace one or both of their original eyes, attaching an arm/leg to replace an appendage that was destroyed, or having armor grafted to their bodies (I use the grafted armor as an example because underneath all that grafted armor is still a soft, squishy Atlantean...). However, the Transmutation process, that actually involves dunking the recipient into a bio-vat, would not work on a True Atlantean, in my opinion. Which, coincidently, seems to be backed by canon, referencing a previous post about bio-vats dissolving TAs.

So, TAs can accept Symbiotes (Maxi-Killer example) and by proxy be affecting by parasites (except probably the Transmuters... Those are arguable). As well as be modified by bio-wizardry in much the same manner they can be modified through cybernetics or bio-systems (both viable options for TAs)... It's just the Transmutation process that wouldn't work on them. So, no changing their size, augmenting their attributes through tansmutation, turning them into MDC beings through transmutation (why bother when tattoo magic is so much more entertaining...?), etc.

Of course, as always, it's your game so run however you want. These are just my observations that follow canon.

How do you know that a True Atlantean Maxi-Killer Splurgoth Juicer was never dunked in a splurgoth bio-vat in the first place? How do you know being dunked in a splurgoth bio-vat isn't part of the symbiote sealing/permanence process?

This is the key question here. You are assuming that turning a True Atlantean into a Splurgoth Juices doesn't involve dunking the same TA into a splurgoth bio-vat but I am be pretty sure you will never find canon or faq evidence to back up this assumption.

As far as I am concerned, all forms of bio-wizardry involve the recipient being dunked in the bio-tank unless there is evidence to the contrary.

[Shark_Force]

i don't have rifts atlantis on hand, but i *do* have the book of magic handy right now.

and the book of magic pretty much lists all the stuff that uses the vat on pages 42-43 afaict. in general, most of the grafting stuff doesn't use the tank, as i recall. in fact, i'm fairly certain this is actually mentioned if you dig deep enough into the descriptions in rifts atlantis (though again, i don't have a copy of that handy just now to check...)

[V-Origin]

i don't have rifts atlantis on hand, but i *do* have the book of magic handy right now.

and the book of magic pretty much lists all the stuff that uses the vat on pages 42-43 afaict. in general, most of the grafting stuff doesn't use the tank, as i recall. in fact, i'm fairly certain this is actually mentioned if you dig deep enough into the descriptions in rifts atlantis (though again, i don't have a copy of that handy just now to check...)

it lists all the stuff that uses the vat.. but it doesn't list the stuff which doesn't use the tank..

i have checked atlantis deeply.. there is nothing in there which states that grafts and symbiotes do not use the tank,,

[V-Origin]

If TAs are immune to bio-wizardry, then they shouldn't be able to be transformed into maxi-killers in the first place. But the fact that TAs are able to be transformed into maxi-killers clearly proves my point that TAs and NBs for that matter can be enhanced by Splurgothian bio-wizardry.

This is what I get for skimming and skipping some posts it seems. I didn't see Jhonathan's mention. Looking it up, it appears JU does settle the debate. True Atlantians can definatly get that and other implants.

Please, allow me a point before my intent becomes miscontrued for something that it wasn't intended for. My argument, referencing the Maxi-Inducer Symbiote, was to show that True Atlanteans are capable of being augmented through the use of Symbiotes, parasites and "other modifications" of Bio-Wizardry. "Other Modifications" meaning things like transplanting an Eye of Eylor to replace one or both of their original eyes, attaching an arm/leg to replace an appendage that was destroyed, or having armor grafted to their bodies (I use the grafted armor as an example because underneath all that grafted armor is still a soft, squishy Atlantean...). However, the Transmutation process, that actually involves dunking the recipient into a bio-vat, would not work on a True Atlantean, in my opinion. Which, coincidently, seems to be backed by canon, referencing a previous post about bio-vats dissolving TAs.

So, TAs can accept Symbiotes (Maxi-Killer example) and by proxy be affecting by parasites (except probably the Transmuters... Those are arguable). As well as be modified by bio-wizardry in much the same manner they can be modified through cybernetics or bio-systems (both viable options for TAs)... It's just the Transmutation process that wouldn't work on them. So, no changing their size, augmenting their attributes through tansmutation, turning them into MDC beings through transmutation (why bother when tattoo magic is so much more entertaining...?), etc.

Of course, as always, it's your game so run however you want. These are just my observations that follow canon.

How do you know that a True Atlantean Maxi-Killer Splurgoth Juicer was never dunked in a splurgoth bio-vat in the first place? How do you know being dunked in a splurgoth bio-vat isn't part of the symbiote sealing/permanence process?

This is the key question here. You are assuming that turning a True Atlantean into a Splurgoth Juices doesn't involve dunking the same TA into a splurgoth bio-vat but I am be pretty sure you will never find canon or faq evidence to back up this assumption.

As far as I am concerned, all forms of bio-wizardry involve the recipient being dunked in the bio-tank unless there is evidence to the contrary.

And-(for the sake of argument only) your assumption that all bio-wizardry involves a dunk tank is not supported by any evidence either... Just pointing out its really left to interpitation...

well i interpret that all forms of bio-wizardry use the tank to some degree or another.

i can assure you that the palladium writers will never set a rule that symbiotes and grafts do not use the tank.. in fact it is in their best interests to leave the exact mechanics of the bio-wizardry processes as ambiguous as possible to circumvent any limits on their imagination..

which is why they wrote that Diabolus's bio-wizardry is very similar to splynn biowizardry yet in the next paragraph add a disclaimer that Diabolus's bio-wizardry is more than the "normal scope of bio-wizardry"

[Mercdog]

Not to mention tattoos are a physical/magical transformation.

can nightbanes get tattoos?

Is there anything that strictly says bane are incapable of getting magic tats? No... Not really. However, due to their mystical nature and natural immunity to transformation abilities, I would say that the most they could recieve is six and they would only have access to those tattoos in their facade form. Once they switched over to their Morphus those tattoos would not be accessible. I do not believe there is anything, within canon, to directly support this claim, so you may consider this personal opinion if you so wish.

I may be mistaken, but IIRC magic tattoos only work on non-supernatural humans (to include sub-races of humans like TAs and ogres) and the dragons that created tattoo magic.

Also IIRC, Nightbane are supernatural creatures, and not truly human at all, so I would say no tats for them beyond the mundane kind, or any that show up on their morphus.

IMHO, a nightbane might develope powers that could mimic magic tats, but they could not recieve actual magic tats.

[Johnathan]

If TAs are immune to bio-wizardry, then they shouldn't be able to be transformed into maxi-killers in the first place. But the fact that TAs are able to be transformed into maxi-killers clearly proves my point that TAs and NBs for that matter can be enhanced by Splurgothian bio-wizardry.

This is what I get for skimming and skipping some posts it seems. I didn't see Jhonathan's mention. Looking it up, it appears JU does settle the debate. True Atlantians can definatly get that and other implants.

Please, allow me a point before my intent becomes miscontrued for something that it wasn't intended for. My argument, referencing the Maxi-Inducer Symbiote, was to show that True Atlanteans are capable of being augmented through the use of Symbiotes, parasites and "other modifications" of Bio-Wizardry. "Other Modifications" meaning things like transplanting an Eye of Eylor to replace one or both of their original eyes, attaching an arm/leg to replace an appendage that was destroyed, or having armor grafted to their bodies (I use the grafted armor as an example because underneath all that grafted armor is still a soft, squishy Atlantean...). However, the Transmutation process, that actually involves dunking the recipient into a bio-vat, would not work on a True Atlantean, in my opinion. Which, coincidently, seems to be backed by canon, referencing a previous post about bio-vats dissolving TAs.

So, TAs can accept Symbiotes (Maxi-Killer example) and by proxy be affecting by parasites (except probably the Transmuters... Those are arguable). As well as be modified by bio-wizardry in much the same manner they can be modified through cybernetics or bio-systems (both viable options for TAs)... It's just the Transmutation process that wouldn't work on them. So, no changing their size, augmenting their attributes through tansmutation, turning them into MDC beings through transmutation (why bother when tattoo magic is so much more entertaining...?), etc.

Of course, as always, it's your game so run however you want. These are just my observations that follow canon.

How do you know that a True Atlantean Maxi-Killer Splurgoth Juicer was never dunked in a splurgoth bio-vat in the first place? How do you know being dunked in a splurgoth bio-vat isn't part of the symbiote sealing/permanence process?

This is the key question here. You are assuming that turning a True Atlantean into a Splurgoth Juices doesn't involve dunking the same TA into a splurgoth bio-vat but I am be pretty sure you will never find canon or faq evidence to back up this assumption.

As far as I am concerned, all forms of bio-wizardry involve the recipient being dunked in the bio-tank unless there is evidence to the contrary.

You missed the last part, it's your game. Run it however you want. I'm only giving my observations that follow canon. I'm not going to argue over it. Especially since you're response is going to be, "it's MY game and I'll run it however I want to! Nobody is asking you to play in it so you can leave this discussion any time you want!" As has been done several times before.

You want to house rule it that way, you just go on with your bad self, I don't even care about arguing that point anymore. However, if you are going to use the view point I present, kindly do so as a courtesy, rather than warp it to fit your needs, please and thank you.

[Giant2005]

With respect to the Nightbane at least, this is all covered in the books.
Page 143 of NB WB1 clearly states that NB are incapable of using Magic Tattoos and are also incapable of receiving Bio-Wizard modifications. Cosnidering their "Immune to Transformation" power is the same as the True Atlantean one, I assume the inability to receive Bio-Wiard mods also applies to the True Atleanteans.

[Mercdog]

With respect to the Nightbane at least, this is all covered in the books.
Page 143 of NB WB1 clearly states that NB are incapable of using Magic Tattoos and are also incapable of receiving Bio-Wizard modifications. Cosnidering their "Immune to Transformation" power is the same as the True Atlantean one, I assume the inability to receive Bio-Wiard mods also applies to the True Atleanteans.

The 'Immune to transformation' isn't necessarily the same. With TAs, IMO, it's about having an inviolate form that retains its shape and nature despite outside forces. With the nightbane, I think it has more to do with them being natural shape shifters able to alter themselves to their favored 'natural' form at will.

Good find, BTW.

[Nekira Sudacne]

With respect to the Nightbane at least, this is all covered in the books.
Page 143 of NB WB1 clearly states that NB are incapable of using Magic Tattoos and are also incapable of receiving Bio-Wizard modifications. Cosnidering their "Immune to Transformation" power is the same as the True Atlantean one, I assume the inability to receive Bio-Wiard mods also applies to the True Atleanteans.

The 'Immune to transformation' isn't necessarily the same. With TAs, IMO, it's about having an inviolate form that retains its shape and nature despite outside forces. With the nightbane, I think it has more to do with them being natural shape shifters able to alter themselves to their favored 'natural' form at will.

Good find, BTW.

No, shapechangers can be altered via biowizardy. any new alteration simply becomes part of their form they can manipulate.

It's actually because nightbane have reincarnated souls of Reshapers in them, and they have a flat "Is immune to transformation by any means other than their own will", and have the power to change into any living or nonthinging thing in exsistance. However, because nightbane are less than reshapers, they lack the same blanket immunity. Nightbane an True Atlantians have a specific (if broad) list of immunities, while reshapers is "Immune to anything other than their own natural power", and clearly is ment to be all encompassing even moreso than Nightbane.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Strange, I never said in that thread they could get rid of them. I said they could alter them at will. Just like they can alter their arm at will. that dosn't mean they can get rid of the arm, nor can they get rid of the wing. Where did you get that I said they could?

[V-Origin]

With respect to the Nightbane at least, this is all covered in the books.
Page 143 of NB WB1 clearly states that NB are incapable of using Magic Tattoos and are also incapable of receiving Bio-Wizard modifications. Cosnidering their "Immune to Transformation" power is the same as the True Atlantean one, I assume the inability to receive Bio-Wiard mods also applies to the True Atleanteans.

Yes this is the evidence I am looking for, thank you so much. So it seems that nightbanes are incapable of using magic tattoos and bio-wizard mods.

But there is still no evidence pointing out that TAs are incapable of receiving bio-wizard mods. In fact, world book 10 juicer shows TAs are capable of using bio-wizard implants.

Also it says on that particular page that although the facade and morphus of NBs are incapable of being modified by bio-wizard mods, Nazca runes, and transformation rituals or circles, it didn't say anything about latent NBs being incapable of being modified by bio-wizard mods.

So a latent NB who hasn't "Become" into a nightbane can very well be modified by bio-wizard mods and Nazca runes and transformation rituals/circles and other goodies of Rifts. Even Diabolus' bio-vats can be applied to a latent NB. The only thing latent NBs can't receive are magic tattoos.

As proof of this, NB WB1 says that NBs retain their cybernetic limbs although these cybernetic limbs disappear when NBs change into their morphus. Also although other cybernetic implants are expelled out of the body by Morphus transformation, you can't say the same for Bio-Wizard implants and especially Bio-Wizard transmutations as bio-wizardry are all completely "natural" and become part of the NB's body.

It is entirely possible for a latent NB to be dunked in a bio-vat, had his stats enhanced and then "Become" a fully-fledged NB a few years down the road without losing his bio-wizard transmutation bonuses.

I wonder how bio-wizardry implants and gene-splicer manipulation of a latent NB's genes would affect his Becoming and Morphus?

[V-Origin]

One mustn't forget that standard gene-splicer technologies can be used to gene-manipulate NBs. Now that would be truly bizzare.

[Nekira Sudacne]

With respect to the Nightbane at least, this is all covered in the books.
Page 143 of NB WB1 clearly states that NB are incapable of using Magic Tattoos and are also incapable of receiving Bio-Wizard modifications. Cosnidering their "Immune to Transformation" power is the same as the True Atlantean one, I assume the inability to receive Bio-Wiard mods also applies to the True Atleanteans.

Yes this is the evidence I am looking for, thank you so much. So it seems that nightbanes are incapable of using magic tattoos and bio-wizard mods.

But there is still no evidence pointing out that TAs are incapable of receiving bio-wizard mods. In fact, world book 10 juicer shows TAs are capable of using bio-wizard implants.

Also it says on that particular page that although the facade and morphus of NBs are incapable of being modified by bio-wizard mods, Nazca runes, and transformation rituals or circles, it didn't say anything about latent NBs being incapable of being modified by bio-wizard mods.

So a latent NB who hasn't "Become" into a nightbane can very well be modified by bio-wizard mods and Nazca runes and transformation rituals/circles and other goodies of Rifts. Even Diabolus' bio-vats can be applied to a latent NB. The only thing latent NBs can't receive are magic tattoos.

As proof of this, NB WB1 says that NBs retain their cybernetic limbs although these cybernetic limbs disappear when NBs change into their morphus. Also although other cybernetic implants are expelled out of the body by Morphus transformation, you can't say the same for Bio-Wizard implants and especially Bio-Wizard transmutations as bio-wizardry are all completely "natural" and become part of the NB's body.

It is entirely possible for a latent NB to be dunked in a bio-vat, had his stats enhanced and then "Become" a fully-fledged NB a few years down the road without losing his bio-wizard transmutation bonuses.

I wonder how bio-wizardry implants and gene-splicer manipulation of a latent NB's genes would affect his Becoming and Morphus?

Except that Nightbane don't exsist on Rifts earth (where bio-wizardry does) its an alternate reality-

You may of coarse knock yourelf out!!-- nice chatting with you sir-

Technically, they do. There's one cannon example of a Nightbane in Kingsdale, check the Juicer Uprising book. Granted, that one is a transplant from the Nightbane setting, but it proves it's possible to travel to and from there to the rest of the megaverse.

[The Beast]

I'm sort of curious where the idea that bio-wizardy is a magical science or that it being a "science" would even matter comes from.

Rifts World Book 2: Atlantis, page 106, first sentence of the first complete paragraph on the right hand side under the Bio-wizardry section.

True, but that dosn't quite address my point. It wasn't so much "is bio-wizardy a magical science" (And you'll note, the line you cite as a question mark by science, indicating it may not be), but that even if it IS a magical science, it would have no bearing on immunity to magical transformations as it's still magic.

Oh, I'm not addressing whether or not it is a magical science, or whether the "science" part matters or not, just where people get that idea from.

[Tor]

the "normal scope of bio-wizardry" does not involve the molding of one life-form into another completely different form of life.

This also clearly shows that splynn's "normal scope of bio-wizardry" is totally different from Diabolus' brand of bio-wizardry.

Thus TAs are able to be modified by all forms of splynn's bio-wizardry including transmutations in a splynn's bio-vat!

Splugorth-brand Bio-Wizardry differing from Diabolus' by being inferior in some respects and incorporating scientific principles doesn't mean it isn't magic.

Techno-wizardry and Cyber-magery both also include technology, yet both have magical components.

Diabolus really has nothing to do with this, since we know his changes are magic. Whether or not bio-wizardry always involves magic depends on the description.

The word 'wizardry' implies that it does.

IIRC magic tattoos only work on non-supernatural humans (to include sub-races of humans like TAs and ogres) and the dragons that created tattoo magic.

Undead Slayers become supernatural and are still able to use tattoos, so no.

[Giant2005]

A note concerning human mutants and Tattoo Magic: It should be noted that most human mutants cannot utilize Tattoo Magic. This includes humans with supernatural level abilities, such as those listed in Skraypers™ and Heroes Unlimited™. However, the human variants from the Skraypers environment who do not have superpowers can use Tattoo Magic and may become T-Men (not that this technology is known to those people, so only victims sold into slavery to the Splugorth are viable candidates). Any humans who have been altered to the extent that they can be considered supernatural creatures also can not receive magic tattoos. Examples of this include the Neo-Humans and Amazons from South America and The Corrupt from the Magic Zone. Remember, only humans, True Atlanteans and other human variants, Chiang-Ku, Ogres, and, to a lesser degree, Elves, can receive magic tattoos.

[Tor]

humans who have been altered to the extent that they can be considered supernatural creatures also can not receive magic tattoos

This is false, because Undead Slayers are stated to be considered supernatural creatures, yet can continue to receive magical tattoos. It's a pure contradiction.

[Nightmask]

humans who have been altered to the extent that they can be considered supernatural creatures also can not receive magic tattoos

This is false, because Undead Slayers are stated to be considered supernatural creatures, yet can continue to receive magical tattoos. It's a pure contradiction.

Not really, Undead Slayers are built as a master of tattoo magic so it's no contradiction at all that being the very source of their powers that they'd have no problems receiving more of what gives them power unlike everyone else.