PPE: when it rains, it pours!

[Daeglan]

I don't think any of the ideas proposed are unbalancing. They are perfectly in the rules. The main thing is making that many Talismans and Scrolls would take quite a lot of time, so it's something you work up to. Same thing with the spells. Talisman and Create Magic Scroll are rare spells you don't normally just start out with, and any good GM would just make you work for them. It just shows how powerful a prepared mage can be.

I agree. Mages should make boyscouts look unprepared. Read the Dresden Files books as he goes on he starts to learn to be more prepared and his level of dangerousness goes up significantly.

[The Beast]

I go to the pet shop, buy 50 mice and tie them to a little board with a pentagram and position the talisman in the middle and then ritualistically kill each of the mice and the life force they expel at the time of their death is absorbed into the amulet.

Ick. That would be fine for an evil NPC, I guess, but I couldn't imagine allowing a PC to do that (since I strongly discourage evil PCs). And if you try to tell me that killing DOZENS of innocents, whether they're human or animal, for profit isn't evil, I'm going to have to argue the point. This isn't like running a slaughterhouse, or buying the mice to feed your pet snake - you can't eat ley lines, nor can you "just take some" and let it grow back, both of which are options for harvesting PPE.

But I do see your point.

I'd have to do a search for it, but IIRC, only Principled alignments are forbidden from using animal sacrifices at all, and Scrupulous alignments only use them if absolutely needed. All other alignments are open season on the subject.

[Necrite]

And how is this different from when they are on a ley line, or nexus?

You can't carry a Ley Line or Nexus with you.

How is this different than normal casting?

You have a finite number of PPE, that often recharge slower than the stacked buffs wear out.

I agree that mages should prepare in advance, and should take advantage of ley lines when they can. But from a balance point of view, it's slightly unfair that a mage with the right spell selection can have an effectively unlimited MDC, and can pump out more damage than a squad of Glitter Boys with no ammo limit.

[Necrite]

I'd have to do a search for it, but IIRC, only Principled alignments are forbidden from using animal sacrifices at all, and Scrupulous alignments only use them if absolutely needed. All other alignments are open season on the subject.

Alignments aren't set in stone. Personal morals factor in too. I wouldn't label myself as Principled or Scrupulous, but there's no way in hell I would consider it right to slaughter dozens of animals just to recharge a battery. Even less so when there's other options available.

PFRPG's Magic section states "Only characters of an evil alignment will consider blood sacrifice as a means to acquire magic energy. Principled and scrupulous alignments will not even consider animal sacrifices."

As written, I find that slightly contradictory. I assume that the first sentence is specifically in regards to human sacrifice, and the latter implies that the alignments between Principled/Scrupulous and Evil might be willing to consider animal sacrifice. But again, personal morals supersede the broad strokes that the alignment system paints.

[Blue_Lion]

well i guess how unbalancing is how you draw the PPE from the items, if you can only draw the PPE from one per action and the limit on PPE is there it is not realy unbalancing.

The unbalancing part of the unlimited PPE comes in when you can spam spells with high casting cost such as annilate to pump out large amont of MD spells and not tire, as a mage is intended to do.

(also I play a TW and usaly favor idea devices over function. Had a TW archer with a bunch of trick arrows, magic net, blinding flash, carpet of adhision, globe of daylight, light target, and even tech arrows. basicaly king of a TW green arrow style PC) usaly with armor i favor 1 defencive spell and sustain, same with vehicles combat ofensive spells I tend to make in weapon forms such as the Carpet of adhision cannon that i placed on the "belly gun" of the NG robot in convertion book 1 with the cannon for a head (the CoA cannon requited a hip thrust to shoot for some reason). Other things was a pilots helm that gave level 3 piloting skill for any one vehicle for 3 hours.

Now I do belive a prepaired mage is more dangerus than unprepared mage, but sacerfice for PPE wheter for spell or reserve is generaly seen as a eviel act.

[Blue_Lion]

I don't think any of the ideas proposed are unbalancing. They are perfectly in the rules. The main thing is making that many Talismans and Scrolls would take quite a lot of time, so it's something you work up to. Same thing with the spells. Talisman and Create Magic Scroll are rare spells you don't normally just start out with, and any good GM would just make you work for them. It just shows how powerful a prepared mage can be.

Check out the high magus some time. Work at them they are standard spells by level what 3?

[Daeglan]

And how is this different than a full conversion borg?

I do not see the problem with someone who makes the preparation in time to have these using them. Because every time they are used you have to make a trip to the gas station as it were to refill them. And the counter to them is long protracted fights. Kill 5 of ex. then 2 minutes later back up arrives and so on.

[Blue_Lion]

And how is this different than a full conversion borg?

I do not see the problem with someone who makes the preparation in time to have these using them. Because every time they are used you have to make a trip to the gas station as it were to refill them. And the counter to them is long protracted fights. Kill 5 of ex. then 2 minutes later back up arrives and so on.

In order for a full convertion borg to as much damage as a high end spell he whould need to burn a large mini misle voley, with the amont of PPE you are talking about the mages damage will dwarf anything that the full convertion borg could do. Given that the mage can also repair/heal things move increble distance even change the landscape and is walking around with the power to cast a spell of legend on demand. That is where it gets unbalanced. Now if the mage had a relm in the astral plane to crank retreat to with a faster time stream and no aging then he can retreat for a few minuts and come back full power and smake the hurt down, while a borg by himself whould need hours or days to repair/rearm from a large fight.

[Godogma]

In order to make his deck of Talisman cards he has to spend quite a while on a ley line. Look at the ley line encounter chart - that's not going to be unencumbered time just making talismans... He's going to have to have an understanding party as well as some decent luck to get the deck made in the first place. And its going to happen every time he has to recharge.

It evens out.

[Blue_Lion]

Actualy as the tailsman spell points out there are ways around the casting time and i do not see annilate as beeing weak MD spell. The main thing holding back is limited PPE, there are ways aroud the casting time with affects as the HIgh mage are a kind of enchanter i whould not put it past there beeing a RUE way for them to get out the spell they need quick.

[Godogma]

I never said a word about casting time, I was talking about time spent directly atop a ley line. Other people are going to want to use it - there's a chart for random encounters on a ley line... It takes time to make this deck of talisman cards, he is going to be interrupted probably several times before he gets the thing made unless I miss my guess and the encounters won't all be friendly.

The cyborg has a much easier time replenishing his stores than the mage with the talisman based battery. Most likely he's not going to have a random chart full of nasty encounters there to bother him.

Or were you replying to enhancer? If you were, nevermind XD

[Hotrod]

Here's an idea: magic talisman PPE batteries sewn into your under-armor clothes! They're always touching your skin, so you can draw on them whenever you like, and you can keep your precious body fully armored.

Chafing might be a problem, but I think most characters could live with that.

[Hotrod]

Actualy as the tailsman spell points out there are ways around the casting time and i do not see annilate as beeing weak MD spell. The main thing holding back is limited PPE, there are ways aroud the casting time with affects as the HIgh mage are a kind of enchanter i whould not put it past there beeing a RUE way for them to get out the spell they need quick.

Yep you can make an Annihilation Talisman(as can any Ley Line Walker with the right spell choice), for the cost of 1150 P.P.E. Or you could just make an Annihilation Rifle with a Techno-Wizard. Just about any complaint you have about high level spells having an instant action is already covered by Techno-Wizards. Why is a mage with a P.P.E deck who casts most of his spells overpowering? A Stone Master can charge the kind of P.P.E you have a problem with in a day at a pyramid. Any high P.P.E race is just as dangerous(Dragon, Pheonixi, Lizard Mage etc.). Ley Lines and Nexuses allow the kind of power casting you have an issue with all the time.

Rifts: Book of Magic, p50. Left column, towards the bottom. "The spell can be from Levels One through Eight, excluding illusion spells... it must be a spell invocation, not a ritual.

Annihilate is a Level 14 spell. No annihilation talisman for you! You could get a few Lightning Arcs, though. Or three Sorcerous Furies (stronger, but nastier).

[flatline]

And how is this different from when they are on a ley line, or nexus?

You can't carry a Ley Line or Nexus with you.

How is this different than normal casting?

You have a finite number of PPE, that often recharge slower than the stacked buffs wear out.

I agree that mages should prepare in advance, and should take advantage of ley lines when they can. But from a balance point of view, it's slightly unfair that a mage with the right spell selection can have an effectively unlimited MDC, and can pump out more damage than a squad of Glitter Boys with no ammo limit.

Nothing is infinite. Your enchantment rate is limited by how fast you can absorb PPE. The number of Talismans you can create is your enchantment rate multiplied by the amount of time you spend enchanting.

--flatline

[Godogma]

It's also limited by the amount of encounters you're willing to risk while you're on the leyline. An excellent method of being prepared for a mage flatline.

I quite approve.

[flatline]

Dude, ley lines are risky. I much prefer sitting in a subway station or on a busy pedestrian street in a dimension where they don't know anything about magic and drawing PPE from people as they walk by.

But I'll use a ley line if that's all I've got.

--flatline

[Godogma]

Indeed; that was kinda what I was pointing out to the guys who were all "that's abusive and I'd never allow it."

[Necrite]

drawing PPE from people as they walk by.

I was under the impression that you could only draw PPE from people if they were willing donors, or blood sacrifices. Did I miss something?

[flatline]

RUE omitted it, but RMB (and HU and BTS) has rules for drawing PPE from people who are unaware of your intention as long as they're not trained in the use of their PPE. This was an extremely unfortunate omission.

To sum up:
You can draw 70% of someone's PPE if they're willing (unlimited number of people)
You can draw 50% of someone's PPE if they're unaware (up to two people per level per attempt, but they must fail a save vs magic)
You can draw effectively nothing from someone who is unwilling or on the defensive except by killing them.

I don't have RMB with me, so I can't be more specific. Sorry. PM me if you want the details.

--flatline

[Necrite]

I don't have RMB with me, so I can't be more specific. Sorry. PM me if you want the details.

Thanks, but not necessary. I've got two of the three books you mentioned, so I can look up the details when I get home. Since I don't have RUE, I probably knew about that at some point, and just forgot it.

[flatline]

R:UE says you can't take people that arent willing anymore. They get a save and magic users cannot have their P.P.E. taken at all.

RUE p186 describes taking PPE from subjects who are actively helping you and subjects that are actively resisting you, but ignores subjects that are totally ignorant of the attack. RMB gives rules for this third case.

It's totally up to you to decide if the RMB rule is still in effect or if its omission from RUE was meant to remove the rule from canon. I choose to use the RMB rule because drawing PPE from the unaware was a huge source of PPE pre-RUE and if Kevin intended to change that, he should have explicitly stated the change.

--flatline

[Mlp7029]

In our game the GM has ruled the suspended animation spell suspends spells cast on items. If your GM agrees Energy Spheres stored in dimensional pockets with suspended animation works great. My character uses all of the techniques you mentioned. I have also made dental fillings into talismans. Must have is an Escape talisman or two plus Time Slip. I run a Rifts campaign and my players have quickly realized that the studded accessories look is popular with mages because all the studs can be talismans and or amulets.

[flatline]

In our game the GM has ruled the suspended animation spell suspends spells cast on items. If your GM agrees Energy Spheres stored in dimensional pockets with suspended animation works great.

If your GM lets you do that, then that sounds like an excellent way to save PPE for later use.

My character uses all of the techniques you mentioned

I had to re-read this thread. I'd totally forgotten about it.

--flatline

[Mlp7029]

It wouldn't happen in one of my games. I am too much of a douche bag. I actually base spell availability off the percentages listed in the R:UE and Mysteries of Magic so there is like 1% of someone having talisman. Might be a little higher. Its late I can't recall exactly. Otherwise, the only way a Practitioner of Magic can get it would be by reaching 15th level and selecting it as their 15th level spell or through some epic feat that earned it for them.

How do you handle this with Temporal Wizards who can start with Talisman or figure it out for themselves whenever they raise a level?

How do you handle this with High Magnus who automatically learn Talisman (and every other 13th level spell) when they reach level three?

--flatline

I am curious do you go to the same extremes limiting access to power armor or other equipment that other classes get access to at intial generation? I went through this with a GM. He was unhappy my LLW used a laser rifle so often instead of a magic spell until I pointed out my character could not duplicate the range or even come close to the damage of a Wilks pulse rifle with my magic. I used my magic for defense, utility and immobilization. And of course there is the rate of fire issue for any spells over 5th level. The cool thing about being a Mage is getting to cast your spells a lot. All this talk about Blinding Flash and all these other low level spells that have less range than a pistol is well and good but not very practical offensively in Rifts ranged combat. These are of course just my opinions. I would note in the game I run Mages serving with a magic based Rmed force like Tolkeen, Arzno, Lazlo, etc are generally issued at least 10 PPE talismans just like mundane soldiers are issued at least 10 e-clips for their weapon.

[Mlp7029]

It's also limited by the amount of encounters you're willing to risk while you're on the leyline. An excellent method of being prepared for a mage flatline.

I quite approve.

Too true unless you go somewhere like Tolkeen or any other magically adVanced city that has controlled its ley lines. PPE is the ultimate renewable energy source if only there was a way to export it away from places it is abundant like we do with oil. Oh, wait there are many such ways one of the easiest is Talismans. It is only reasonable that someone perhaps a Mage who wanted to get rich would start mass producing PPE Talismans someplace like Tolkeen where it is safe to have a factory on a ley line.

[Subjugator]

1. Talisman PPE batteries: I usually carry around a deck of cards with each card a PPE battery. 54 cards (2 jokers plus 13 or each suit) with 30 PPE each is 1620PPE. If you cut a thumb-width gap in the side of the box, you can touch all 54 cards at the same time.

Clever, but I'd use a tarot rather than a conventional deck of cards. According to Wikipedia, most tarots have 78 cards (bigger pool of PPE), and to me, it seems more thematically appropriate.

Use whatever you like as long as you can easily access 1000 PPE at one time (for dimensional portal). I chose playing cards because the deck is pocket size. The only tarot decks I've seen were probably 4x6 which is too large to unobtrusively stash anywhere, but they probably also come in smaller sizes.

In high power campaigns, I've had two or three dozen such decks on hand. I'd keep the full ones in one dimensional pocket, the completely empty ones in a second dimensional pocket, and the partially used ones in a third dimensional pocket.

I experimented at one point with wood chips that I enchanted with Iron Wood to make them more durable, but they took more space and it wasn't as easy to touch enough at the same time to reach my benchmark 1000PPE. I decided that while playing cards were easily destroyed, they were only vulnerable when I was actually using them since nothing could hurt them inside my dimensional pockets.

--flatline

Hm. A deck of cards is the best I can think of offhand. BBs are too easily scattered. Tarot cards are too big.

Maybe a stack of post-it notes instead, since they're stuck together but have benefits similar to those of a deck of cards?

/Sub

[Subjugator]

If you could get someone to apply silver runes to them, they would be indestructible.

54 silver runes? Sounds expensive...

Why would silver runes make something invulnerable? My knowledge of magic is limited at best so I've probably missed many tidbits of knowledge... anyone care to share a book and page number so that I can increase my knowledge base?

If a rune in silver is drawn, it'll make the paper it is drawn upon indestructible. It's in the Palladium Fantasy RPG rulebook.

/Sub

[The Beast]

1. Talisman PPE batteries: I usually carry around a deck of cards with each card a PPE battery. 54 cards (2 jokers plus 13 or each suit) with 30 PPE each is 1620PPE. If you cut a thumb-width gap in the side of the box, you can touch all 54 cards at the same time.

Clever, but I'd use a tarot rather than a conventional deck of cards. According to Wikipedia, most tarots have 78 cards (bigger pool of PPE), and to me, it seems more thematically appropriate.

Use whatever you like as long as you can easily access 1000 PPE at one time (for dimensional portal). I chose playing cards because the deck is pocket size. The only tarot decks I've seen were probably 4x6 which is too large to unobtrusively stash anywhere, but they probably also come in smaller sizes.

In high power campaigns, I've had two or three dozen such decks on hand. I'd keep the full ones in one dimensional pocket, the completely empty ones in a second dimensional pocket, and the partially used ones in a third dimensional pocket.

I experimented at one point with wood chips that I enchanted with Iron Wood to make them more durable, but they took more space and it wasn't as easy to touch enough at the same time to reach my benchmark 1000PPE. I decided that while playing cards were easily destroyed, they were only vulnerable when I was actually using them since nothing could hurt them inside my dimensional pockets.

--flatline

Hm. A deck of cards is the best I can think of offhand. BBs are too easily scattered. Tarot cards are too big.

Maybe a stack of post-it notes instead, since they're stuck together but have benefits similar to those of a deck of cards?

/Sub

A deck of MtG cards...

[Subjugator]

Well, if the briefcase is destroyed, then the GM has to make a ruling about what happens to the contents of a dimensional pocket if the item the dimensional pocket is anchored to is destroyed (the spell description does not address this issue). Worst case: I lose everything in the briefcase (which could be hundreds or thousands of nested dimensional pockets).

Technically, in the worst case it destroys the entire universe and everything in it, sending our souls into the pits of Hades for all eternity.



/Sub

[Subjugator]

That said, I would not be opposed to a Talisman Mage OCC but it would have to be carefully designed to avoid turning the mystic forces of the cosmos into a commodity and ending up with an effective unlimited PPE and Spell Base.

I'm not sure that talismans would have that high of a value as a commodity. According to the description in Book of Magic, talismans are basically disposable items, unless you have access to the original caster; nobody else can recharge them. Unless they're being sold dirt cheap, I can't see them selling that often, and I can't see most mages being willing to sell cheap, when (unless they're on a Ley line) it takes a VERY large expenditure of PPE to create and/or charge the talismans.

I go to the pet shop, buy 50 mice and tie them to a little board with a pentagram and position the talisman in the middle and then ritualistically kill each of the mice and the life force they expel at the time of their death is absorbed into the amulet. I've also seen people with characters that are covered in talismans from head to toe filled with spells and P.P.E. and its just ludicrous. It could be a cool idea if done right, but it'd be so easy to do it wrong -- that was my point.

This reminds me of the summon rats and mice thing, where people would summon 'em and sacrifice 'em for the PPE.

/Sub

[flatline]

1. Talisman PPE batteries: I usually carry around a deck of cards with each card a PPE battery. 54 cards (2 jokers plus 13 or each suit) with 30 PPE each is 1620PPE. If you cut a thumb-width gap in the side of the box, you can touch all 54 cards at the same time.

Clever, but I'd use a tarot rather than a conventional deck of cards. According to Wikipedia, most tarots have 78 cards (bigger pool of PPE), and to me, it seems more thematically appropriate.

Use whatever you like as long as you can easily access 1000 PPE at one time (for dimensional portal). I chose playing cards because the deck is pocket size. The only tarot decks I've seen were probably 4x6 which is too large to unobtrusively stash anywhere, but they probably also come in smaller sizes.

In high power campaigns, I've had two or three dozen such decks on hand. I'd keep the full ones in one dimensional pocket, the completely empty ones in a second dimensional pocket, and the partially used ones in a third dimensional pocket.

I experimented at one point with wood chips that I enchanted with Iron Wood to make them more durable, but they took more space and it wasn't as easy to touch enough at the same time to reach my benchmark 1000PPE. I decided that while playing cards were easily destroyed, they were only vulnerable when I was actually using them since nothing could hurt them inside my dimensional pockets.

--flatline

Hm. A deck of cards is the best I can think of offhand. BBs are too easily scattered. Tarot cards are too big.

Maybe a stack of post-it notes instead, since they're stuck together but have benefits similar to those of a deck of cards?

/Sub

Whatever works for you! I like cards because it's easy to remove a single card from the box, enchant it, and then put it back in the box. But if you want to enchant a post-it without removing it from the pad, that would work just as well. I still recommend a box so that the pad doesn't wear too much.

Just to help emphasize how disposable I consider Talismans to be, in one of our more evil aligned campaigns, I was making Mental Shock Talismans out of beef jerky (or something like it) that I gave to my summoned Shadow Beast minions. Once they'd used all three charges, they got to eat the treat and then return to their home dimension.

--flatline

[Subjugator]

1. Talisman PPE batteries: I usually carry around a deck of cards with each card a PPE battery. 54 cards (2 jokers plus 13 or each suit) with 30 PPE each is 1620PPE. If you cut a thumb-width gap in the side of the box, you can touch all 54 cards at the same time.

Clever, but I'd use a tarot rather than a conventional deck of cards. According to Wikipedia, most tarots have 78 cards (bigger pool of PPE), and to me, it seems more thematically appropriate.

Use whatever you like as long as you can easily access 1000 PPE at one time (for dimensional portal). I chose playing cards because the deck is pocket size. The only tarot decks I've seen were probably 4x6 which is too large to unobtrusively stash anywhere, but they probably also come in smaller sizes.

In high power campaigns, I've had two or three dozen such decks on hand. I'd keep the full ones in one dimensional pocket, the completely empty ones in a second dimensional pocket, and the partially used ones in a third dimensional pocket.

I experimented at one point with wood chips that I enchanted with Iron Wood to make them more durable, but they took more space and it wasn't as easy to touch enough at the same time to reach my benchmark 1000PPE. I decided that while playing cards were easily destroyed, they were only vulnerable when I was actually using them since nothing could hurt them inside my dimensional pockets.

--flatline

Hm. A deck of cards is the best I can think of offhand. BBs are too easily scattered. Tarot cards are too big.

Maybe a stack of post-it notes instead, since they're stuck together but have benefits similar to those of a deck of cards?

/Sub

Whatever works for you! I like cards because it's easy to remove a single card from the box, enchant it, and then put it back in the box. But if you want to enchant a post-it without removing it from the pad, that would work just as well. I still recommend a box so that the pad doesn't wear too much.

Just to help emphasize how disposable I consider Talismans to be, in one of our more evil aligned campaigns, I was making Mental Shock Talismans out of beef jerky (or something like it) that I gave to my summoned Shadow Beast minions. Once they'd used all three charges, they got to eat the treat and then return to their home dimension.

--flatline

I think playing cards are better for other reasons, too. You can fan 'em out and hand 'em to others, and so on...but I think I'd keep *some* post-it notes around as well.

/Sub

[Tor]

I normally carry a briefcase that is filled with file folders.
Each file folder is labeled and has a single dimensional pocket in it.
Each pocket can hold more file folders with dimensional pockets in them.

Reminds me of item worlds in Disgaea. Can travel into any item, fight monsters there, monsters carrying items which, if you steal from them, can then travel into...

my players have quickly realized that the studded accessories look is popular with mages because all the studs can be talismans and or amulets.

Strong revive!

This didn't occur to me, makes sense though, good way to keep a bunch of small talismans on hand. I still think chain-mail is king in terms of this though, yet it is probably easier to repair studded leather (I recall a PF spell for it...) than it is chain.

[Mlp7029]

1. Talisman PPE batteries: I usually carry around a deck of cards with each card a PPE battery. 54 cards (2 jokers plus 13 or each suit) with 30 PPE each is 1620PPE. If you cut a thumb-width gap in the side of the box, you can touch all 54 cards at the same time.

Clever, but I'd use a tarot rather than a conventional deck of cards. According to Wikipedia, most tarots have 78 cards (bigger pool of PPE), and to me, it seems more thematically appropriate.

Awesome idea! Thanks I will use it in my campaign.

[Mlp7029]

flatline- What would your character sell a deck of talisman cards for? How about a scroll of Talisman?

[/quote]
In high power campaigns, I've had two or three dozen such decks on hand. I'd keep the full ones in one dimensional pocket, the completely empty ones in a second dimensional pocket, and the partially used ones in a third dimensional pocket.

I experimented at one point with wood chips that I enchanted with Iron Wood to make them more durable, but they took more space and it wasn't as easy to touch enough at the same time to reach my benchmark 1000PPE. I decided that while playing cards were easily destroyed, they were only vulnerable when I was actually using them since nothing could hurt them inside my dimensional pockets.

--flatline[/quote]

[Whiskeyjack]

I'm glad this thread got resurrected. I love mages who use their head to find different ways to utilize their skills. I personally don't see it as being unbalanced. It sounds like some people allow spells to stack in their campaigns. In this case, you can definitely unbalance a game. I personally don't allow it. If you have Armour if Ithan on you, and someone casts it again, it just slides off, unless it is partially depleted, then it may top it off.

[flatline]

flatline- What would your character sell a deck of talisman cards for? How about a scroll of Talisman?

The economics of the setting depend largely on the GM running the game since, categorically speaking, the prices given in canon don't make any sense.

That said, I suppose I'd charge whatever I thought I could get for it (assuming I was willing to sell it in the first place).

One thing to consider is that Talismans can only be recharged by the creator, so if I sold it to someone, once it's used up, it's used up unless they can bring it back to me.

--flatline