Sidekick, broken beyond all means?

[Dobergirl]

It just occured to me, if one wants to make the best character in the game, they want to be a sidekick to Ancient Master. You get Martial Arts Mastery and all the tons of bonuses like dual wielding and all holds and all kicks and intitative and strike bonuses at level 1, PLUS, athletics and body building, basic mech, basic electronics and two scholastic skills of my choice from the mentor and 6 secondary skills of my choice! Combine that with starting as minor and you get permanent +1 dodge bonus for life! And when they mature, all the stat negatives go away, leaving a pretty much unstoppable behemoth. And even if their stats would be subpar, Martial Arts Mastery still gives bonuses to hand to hand damage and parry and dodge and if they actually get stat bonuses too, they are pretty much supernatural levels. (Not to mention, under positive energy they can literally deal supernatural damage) I did some math and if I counted right the lowest ancient master can be is level 4 with 8 melee attacks for that level, counting 2 starting and 1 from boxing would mean they'd get like 5 attacks per melee from the martial arts master fighting style, probably 2 at level 1 or so as well. (And since you can take any two scholastic, why not take boxing and say, acrobatics from the ancient master?)

This way, you've just created a young teen who continues growing and becoming better (even more so) and has no limitations or any of the bad things that come from taking Ancinent Master usually and they probably cap almost every fight related bonus by age of 20. Is this even possible? I looked at both Rifter 16th and Heroes and neither said anything against it. In fact, and I quote

"Usually only Hardware, Physical Training and Special Training characters will take a sidekick.

Ancient Master is the very FIRST character class under Special Training even.


And if you want to go really nuts, you can even put the sidekick under ancient master and if rolled as Mega Hero, you can dual class that sidekick into robotics and give them a fancy super robot suit so that they can take down everything in every situation when regular powers and wits aren't enough.


Please tell me I'm reading this wrong or did I just really create the ultimate way of creating unstoppable heroes?

[Tor]

That's some nice bonuses, but what will your Sidekick Ancient Master do against a guy with APS Plasma?

[Dobergirl]

That's some nice bonuses, but what will your Sidekick Ancient Master do against a guy with APS Plasma?

Unleash chi and shoot energy attacks until he goes to coma or unconcious or gives up.

[Tor]

Not sure what you mean by 'chi and energy' because the only energy attack ancient masters have is their 'unleash chi' power.

The problem with that is that it takes a lot of melee actions to use, and the damage it does isn't very impressive compared to the amount of damage a Plasma guy can dish out on a per-action basis.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Tor, get your words right, it is a "Side-kick to an Ancient master". Not a "sidekick ancient master."
Yeeeeessssss, there is a difference. One is a sidekick to an ancient master the other is an ancient master that is a sidekick to someone else.
---------------
What would a AM do to a APS Plasma dude/chick?
The smart thing....run away.

Or use "4. Channel and Unleash Physical Energy" which unleashes a blast of heat and force that does damage. However, because the blast is part heat the damage from the #4 would be cut by at least half.

Or if the AM is a N&S AM then and has chi attacks that could hurt an immaterial opponent, he would use those.

Then there is the fire hose attack that the AM could use if available.

[Dobergirl]

Not sure what you mean by 'chi and energy' because the only energy attack ancient masters have is their 'unleash chi' power.

The problem with that is that it takes a lot of melee actions to use, and the damage it does isn't very impressive compared to the amount of damage a Plasma guy can dish out on a per-action basis.

Under Positive Energy, the plasma damage is halved.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Not sure what you mean by 'chi and energy' because the only energy attack ancient masters have is their 'unleash chi' power.

The problem with that is that it takes a lot of melee actions to use, and the damage it does isn't very impressive compared to the amount of damage a Plasma guy can dish out on a per-action basis.

Under Positive Energy, the plasma damage is halved.

You need to work on your wording too DG.

"...., the damage to APS plasma is halved." would be correctly worded. However, the exact % of the immunity is up to the GM. Why? because the wording in the text is inexact.

EDIT: Let's not be rude! - NMI

[Long Shadow]

Just curious where this Sidekick power category is. I'm familiar with the Minor Hero (PU2) but it doesn't provide anything near what is described when applied to an Ancient Master.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The Rifter #16
Art - - 6
From Behind the Desk of Kevin Siembieda - - 7
Palladium News - - 8
Coming Attractions - - 9
Palladium Megaverse: Questions & Answers (combat) - - 17 <OFFICIAL>
2001 X-Mas Surprise Package/Grab Bag - - 22
The Palladium Weapons Series is Back - - 23
Palladium Fantasy: Young, Dumb, and Ugly - - 24
Heroes Unlimited: Teen Heroes Unlimited - - 28
Ninjas & Superspies: Hell: Frozen Over (adv.)- - 33
Nightbane: Dark Revelations (adv.)- - 49
Rifts: "Official" HLS Adventures for Coalition Wars: Final Siege - - 82 <OFFICIAL>
Rifts: The Hammer of the Forge - - 91
Rifts: One Chance in a Million (fic)- - 97
After the Bomb: "Sneak Preview"- - 110 <OFFICIAL>

More specifically pages 32&33. The last section of the of the article.

That is unless there is something in the HU minion war books.....

[Dobergirl]

counters:

robot pilot "I fire a 10 missile volley at him"
anybody "I shoot him"

Dodging those with +4 automatic dodge.

aps plasma and aps void "hug him"

Under positive energy that only does half damage and if you're so close, you're going to get hit by Chi attacks for sure. And you still have to be able to touch them. *points to the +4 auto dodge*

invisibility "reverse pickpocket a grenade"

If chosen, heightened Sense of Smell allows them to smell the invisible person before they get too close.

psionics "just make a save vs. psionics"

Under positive energy they're +3 before PE bonuses or any other bonuses.

magic "fireball"

Under positive energy +5 to save vs magic before PE bonuses or any other bonuses. And even if it'd hit, it'd only do half damage.


And what you all keep forgetting is that this is a SIDEKICK, as in there's an ancient master of 4+ levels watching his back, if the Sidekick would be a fully fledged hero they probably would be level 10+.

Now the only thing is that does the Sidekick ever become say "Ancient Master" or another applicable power category after having become full hero and starting at like lvl 1 and adding those bonuses to the character? (Having been sidekick to ancient master to lvl 15 would qualify you enough to be physical training I'd think) I'm curious because I may just about do that, after all many of the specially trained people start as sidekicks and then become full fledged heroes at one point.

[eliakon]

counters:

robot pilot "I fire a 10 missile volley at him"
anybody "I shoot him"

Dodging those with +4 automatic dodge.

you cant dodge volly fire
possible penalties to dodge modern weapons (I dont know if it applies to HU)
you cant dodge suprise attacks (like sniper fire)

aps plasma and aps void "hug him"

Under positive energy that only does half damage and if you're so close, you're going to get hit by Chi attacks for sure. And you still have to be able to touch them. *points to the +4 auto dodge*

Chi attack is 'heat and force' so it can be resisted by things that resist...heat and force

invisibility "reverse pickpocket a grenade"

If chosen, heightened Sense of Smell allows them to smell the invisible person before they get too close.

it may or may not it just says that they get a BONUS, it does not say that they negate invisibility there is a difference...

psionics "just make a save vs. psionics"

Under positive energy they're +3 before PE bonuses or any other bonuses.

magic "fireball"

Under positive energy +5 to save vs magic before PE bonuses or any other bonuses. And even if it'd hit, it'd only do half damage.


And what you all keep forgetting is that this is a SIDEKICK, as in there's an ancient master of 4+ levels watching his back, if the Sidekick would be a fully fledged hero they probably would be level 10+.

Now the only thing is that does the Sidekick ever become say "Ancient Master" or another applicable power category after having become full hero and starting at like lvl 1 and adding those bonuses to the character? (Having been sidekick to ancient master to lvl 15 would qualify you enough to be physical training I'd think) I'm curious because I may just about do that, after all many of the specially trained people start as sidekicks and then become full fledged heroes at one point.

Also, dont forget that positive energy saps half your actions per melee.
I would also recomend swamping them with multiple attackers (prefeably ranged attackers) or using stuff like Magic Net spell, or AOE attacks like grenades and shotguns...stuff you cant just autododge away from.

[Dobergirl]

counters:

robot pilot "I fire a 10 missile volley at him"
anybody "I shoot him"

Dodging those with +4 automatic dodge.

you cant dodge volly fire

Show me in the HU 2 rule book where it says you can't. You can even dodge emptying entire magazine or belt to you, though with a penalty. OR if you're talking about 10 missiles, that'd depend if they're guided or mini missile volley. In guided, yeah can't dodge them but then again, you can shoot them down. Though, how they can fire 10 missiles when 8 is ROF for even large launchers? I take the person has 5x2 short range missile depots, two on shoulders, one in chest and two in legs. For sake of the argument, let's assume they're all shooting Plasma Warheads with 5 SDC. You can shoot them down with arrows. (Assuming the Ancient Master who the Sidekick is sidekick for is at least level 5, they would enjoy rof of at least 5 and the sidekick would start with 2 at lvl 1) If they hit their marks, there's only 3 missiles left that they can now try to auto dodge and the robot has to reload.

possible penalties to dodge modern weapons (I dont know if it applies to HU)

It doesn't, unless you're talking about dodging an emptying spray.

you cant dodge suprise attacks (like sniper fire)

Like mentioned, if chosen; extraordinary smell would allow you to smell your foe before they attack you.

aps plasma and aps void "hug him"

Under positive energy that only does half damage and if you're so close, you're going to get hit by Chi attacks for sure. And you still have to be able to touch them. *points to the +4 auto dodge*

Chi attack is 'heat and force' so it can be resisted by things that resist...heat and force

It's basically a Kamehameha. I don't see anywhere in either APS Plasma or Void about being immune to force AND heat. In both cases, it's either but not both, so they'd still take damage.

invisibility "reverse pickpocket a grenade"

If chosen, heightened Sense of Smell allows them to smell the invisible person before they get too close.

it may or may not it just says that they get a BONUS, it does not say that they negate invisibility there is a difference...

I never said it'd negate it. I said it'd allow them to smell the said invisible person.

psionics "just make a save vs. psionics"

Under positive energy they're +3 before PE bonuses or any other bonuses.

magic "fireball"

Under positive energy +5 to save vs magic before PE bonuses or any other bonuses. And even if it'd hit, it'd only do half damage.


And what you all keep forgetting is that this is a SIDEKICK, as in there's an ancient master of 4+ levels watching his back, if the Sidekick would be a fully fledged hero they probably would be level 10+.

Now the only thing is that does the Sidekick ever become say "Ancient Master" or another applicable power category after having become full hero and starting at like lvl 1 and adding those bonuses to the character? (Having been sidekick to ancient master to lvl 15 would qualify you enough to be physical training I'd think) I'm curious because I may just about do that, after all many of the specially trained people start as sidekicks and then become full fledged heroes at one point.

Also, dont forget that positive energy saps half your actions per melee.
I would also recomend swamping them with multiple attackers (prefeably ranged attackers) or using stuff like Magic Net spell, or AOE attacks like grenades and shotguns...stuff you cant just autododge away from.

Magic net is magic so it's +5 save before even any other bonuses. You can dodge even missiles, so none of those you've mentioned are undodgeable.

[eliakon]

you cant dodge volly fire

Show me in the HU 2 rule book where it says you can't. You can even dodge emptying entire magazine or belt to you, though with a penalty. OR if you're talking about 10 missiles, that'd depend if they're guided or mini missile volley. In guided, yeah can't dodge them but then again, you can shoot them down. Though, how they can fire 10 missiles when 8 is ROF for even large launchers? I take the person has 5x2 short range missile depots, two on shoulders, one in chest and two in legs. For sake of the argument, let's assume they're all shooting Plasma Warheads with 5 SDC. You can shoot them down with arrows. (Assuming the Ancient Master who the Sidekick is sidekick for is at least level 5, they would enjoy rof of at least 5 and the sidekick would start with 2 at lvl 1) If they hit their marks, there's only 3 missiles left that they can now try to auto dodge and the robot has to reload.

that would be page 80 where it says that its impossible to dodge 4+ guided missles. YES I know they have to be guided, but that is still possible, and since RIFTS specifically has to state that THEIR missles arnt guided, then yes guided missles are possible

possible penalties to dodge modern weapons (I dont know if it applies to HU)

It doesn't, unless you're talking about dodging an emptying spray.

well besides the 'ricohet' shot that cant be dodged or parried, there is the -6 or -10 to dodge modern weapons, that I believe applies to HU. Since there are some powers that mention that they negate that penalty.

you cant dodge suprise attacks (like sniper fire)

Like mentioned, if chosen; extraordinary smell would allow you to smell your foe before they attack you.

yah, assuming that the sniper is in smelling range. If I shoot you from a window five stories up two blocks away, your NOT going to just 'smell me' and dodge it

invisibility "reverse pickpocket a grenade"

If chosen, heightened Sense of Smell allows them to smell the invisible person before they get too close.

it may or may not it just says that they get a BONUS, it does not say that they negate invisibility there is a difference...

I never said it'd negate it. I said it'd allow them to smell the said invisible person.

just because you can smell them, doesnt mean you cant be pickpocketed, or that they cant act. You just get to know that the person is there

Also, dont forget that positive energy saps half your actions per melee.
I would also recomend swamping them with multiple attackers (prefeably ranged attackers) or using stuff like Magic Net spell, or AOE attacks like grenades and shotguns...stuff you cant just autododge away from.

Magic net is magic so it's +5 save before even any other bonuses. You can dodge even missiles, so none of those you've mentioned are undodgeable.

[/quote]
too bad magic net doesnt allow a saving throw.....its only 'save' is "dodge 16+" yes thats do able, especially if you know its coming, but a surprise attack from an invisible mage?
Also I can still use stuff like....A grenades (you cant exactly dodge a 40' blast, especially if I dont aim at you, but the mailbox next to you
I could use a shot gun to hit an area
I can use tear gas to get an area
et multiple cetera

That said, how did you get super powers (like super smell) on top of your ancient master powers? Am I missing something?

[Sir_Spirit]

Hmm, it seems to me that the ancient master style of character you've made would work to get into melee fast.
Especially against a normal looking a guy.
Once in melee, touching a Plasma dude will inflict massive damage and sacrificing 4attacks per meleee to take half damage will only prolonge your suffering.(attemping to combine that with Chi attack would AFAIK give leave you making one or MAYBE two attacks per melee(and Im pretty sure it would reduce you to 1).
IF you do dodge really well, then you might make plasma dude heat the area you are standing or set the area around you on fire.
YOu might do a little damage but you won't be standing up to them in combat, so much as living to run away.
While the guy/gal you thought of is very slippery and useful, I'd probably allow it as not unbalanced.

[Dobergirl]

you cant dodge volly fire

Show me in the HU 2 rule book where it says you can't. You can even dodge emptying entire magazine or belt to you, though with a penalty. OR if you're talking about 10 missiles, that'd depend if they're guided or mini missile volley. In guided, yeah can't dodge them but then again, you can shoot them down. Though, how they can fire 10 missiles when 8 is ROF for even large launchers? I take the person has 5x2 short range missile depots, two on shoulders, one in chest and two in legs. For sake of the argument, let's assume they're all shooting Plasma Warheads with 5 SDC. You can shoot them down with arrows. (Assuming the Ancient Master who the Sidekick is sidekick for is at least level 5, they would enjoy rof of at least 5 and the sidekick would start with 2 at lvl 1) If they hit their marks, there's only 3 missiles left that they can now try to auto dodge and the robot has to reload.

that would be page 80 where it says that its impossible to dodge 4+ guided missles. YES I know they have to be guided, but that is still possible, and since RIFTS specifically has to state that THEIR missles arnt guided, then yes guided missles are possible

It's impossible to shoot 10 smart missiles mostly because you'd not be able to fit that many on the robotic body, the weakest that can be Smart is Multi-Warhead and they're medium range. (Large Missile Launcher Pod holds only 2 medium missiles and they can only be mounted over two shoulders or one at the back and one at the housing of the exterior, meaning the maximum number of Smart missiles is 4. Technically, since Multi Warheads are cluster of 4 medium range in a large, long range missile, there's no way a robot could ever be able to fire smart missile as the large missile launcher pods only hold medium at max) Also "Contrary to what one might think, you can dodge one, two and even three guided missiles." from HU 2 page 81. And as I said, you can shoot the rest of them down. Also, I'm not talking about Rifts and Smart Missiles are +5 to strike, not 4 but their dodge is +4. Guided missiles are +3 strike and aside mini-missiles, every missile is self guided.

possible penalties to dodge modern weapons (I dont know if it applies to HU)

It doesn't, unless you're talking about dodging an emptying spray.

well besides the 'ricohet' shot that cant be dodged or parried, there is the -6 or -10 to dodge modern weapons, that I believe applies to HU. Since there are some powers that mention that they negate that penalty.

There's no dodge modern weapons penalty. That'd be silly. The only penalty is if there's an emptying spray.

you cant dodge suprise attacks (like sniper fire)

Like mentioned, if chosen; extraordinary smell would allow you to smell your foe before they attack you.

yah, assuming that the sniper is in smelling range. If I shoot you from a window five stories up two blocks away, your NOT going to just 'smell me' and dodge it

If wind is blowing from your direction, I can catch your scent from 300 feet. I am aware Sniper Rifles have longer range than this but I am saying this scenario needs to get into place. Did your character expect the characters to come or did they just realize and start making their way to the sniping spot? (In which case, either of them can catch trail of your scent) Stuff like that. If you're in spot already, I'd probably give the player a chance to roll using their "Detect Ambush" skill if they have it and if they realize there's a sniper, can prevent dying instantly. (Because let's face it, hero or not, a headshot from RAI Convertible will take you out) Anyhow, this is something that would have to play out in game to see how it'd work before I can tell you more.

invisibility "reverse pickpocket a grenade"

If chosen, heightened Sense of Smell allows them to smell the invisible person before they get too close.

it may or may not it just says that they get a BONUS, it does not say that they negate invisibility there is a difference...

I never said it'd negate it. I said it'd allow them to smell the said invisible person.

just because you can smell them, doesnt mean you cant be pickpocketed, or that they cant act. You just get to know that the person is there

Which would effectively make pickpocketing me quite hard, wouldn't it?

Also, dont forget that positive energy saps half your actions per melee.
I would also recomend swamping them with multiple attackers (prefeably ranged attackers) or using stuff like Magic Net spell, or AOE attacks like grenades and shotguns...stuff you cant just autododge away from.

Magic net is magic so it's +5 save before even any other bonuses. You can dodge even missiles, so none of those you've mentioned are undodgeable.

too bad magic net doesnt allow a saving throw.....its only 'save' is "dodge 16+" yes thats do able, especially if you know its coming, but a surprise attack from an invisible mage?

On what page of HU 2 is Magic Net that says that it's not save vs magic? But that's nice, I've got huge dodge bonuses so it's easy to dodge then.

Also I can still use stuff like....A grenades (you cant exactly dodge a 40' blast, especially if I dont aim at you, but the mailbox next to you

You can still roll to dodge. They're not instant detonation.

I could use a shot gun to hit an area

Dodge it, if you're spraying wild you can dodge it still.

I can use tear gas to get an area

Dodge it, they're not instant detonation.

et multiple cetera

Dodge, dodge, dodge. There's very few things you can't dodge. In terms of modern firearm bursts and shooting wild, you just lose your dodge bonuses. If concentrated, the bonuses apply. HU2 Modern Weapon Combat rules pages 75-76

That said, how did you get super powers (like super smell) on top of your ancient master powers? Am I missing something?

Ancient Master can pick one super sense or superior SDC or anything of their choice from this list.

Hmm, it seems to me that the ancient master style of character you've made would work to get into melee fast.
Especially against a normal looking a guy.
Once in melee, touching a Plasma dude will inflict massive damage and sacrificing 4attacks per meleee to take half damage will only prolonge your suffering.(attemping to combine that with Chi attack would AFAIK give leave you making one or MAYBE two attacks per melee(and Im pretty sure it would reduce you to 1).
IF you do dodge really well, then you might make plasma dude heat the area you are standing or set the area around you on fire.
YOu might do a little damage but you won't be standing up to them in combat, so much as living to run away.
While the guy/gal you thought of is very slippery and useful, I'd probably allow it as not unbalanced.

You also forget there's also the Ancient Master and the Sidekick. So the Plasma Dude would be sandwhiched between two guys who are shooting chi at him. Since entering or exiting positive influence doesn't cost a single melee, they can just pop it on when plasma dude is chasing after them specifically and otherwise keep it off to maximize ammount of punishment they can dish on the guy.

[eliakon]

Assuming that the Side kicks 'boss' is there. In comics all the time there are stories with the sidekick alone. Personally I would be leary of allowing a PC to have an older more powerfull NPC as part of their equipment (unless its solo play then its not so disruptive) Of course that begs the question of why a foe high enough level to chalange the higher level anchient master is not tough enough to deal with the both of them.

[eliakon]

Now onto Dodges.
Page 63, bottom. Puts dodging bullets at -6 with straight rolls only.
next There are no clear cut rules for dodging Area attacks, espeically somehting like a cloud. Saying that you can just 'dodge' teargas is sort of counter intuitive, you could LEAVE the area of the gas...but then you cant melee the person in it (who if they have a mask/sealed armor/etc can keep shooting you with hard to dodge guns)
page 80 just says "mini-missles are USUALLY unguided" so yah, if I am facing a dodge monster, expect to face guided mini-missles
Shotguns are already area attacks, I dont NEED to shoot wild (though a automatic shotgun will do wonders)

Yes your dodge is going to be very usefull, but its pretty easy to counter if a person is willing to do so (range, area fire ect)

[Dobergirl]

Assuming that the Side kicks 'boss' is there. In comics all the time there are stories with the sidekick alone. Personally I would be leary of allowing a PC to have an older more powerfull NPC as part of their equipment (unless its solo play then its not so disruptive) Of course that begs the question of why a foe high enough level to chalange the higher level anchient master is not tough enough to deal with the both of them.

As part of their equipment...?

The requirement of sidekick is that you have to have at least level 4 hero to train you. In this case, either me or my friend would roll for ancient master and the other person would roll for the sidekick.

Now onto Dodges.
Page 63, bottom. Puts dodging bullets at -6 with straight rolls only.

Page 63 says -4 and the penalty is ignored if the character has initiative.

next There are no clear cut rules for dodging Area attacks, espeically somehting like a cloud. Saying that you can just 'dodge' teargas is sort of counter intuitive, you could LEAVE the area of the gas...but then you cant melee the person in it (who if they have a mask/sealed armor/etc can keep shooting you with hard to dodge guns)

There's no rules against dodging gas, so dodging it means the grenade doesn't hit my area and I roll out of the effective range, not that I dodge and then it's totally pointless. There'd be no point in fighting anyone using gas or anything if there's no way for me to do anything about it.

page 80 just says "mini-missles are USUALLY unguided" so yah, if I am facing a dodge monster, expect to face guided mini-missles

How do you make a mini missile guided?

Shotguns are already area attacks, I dont NEED to shoot wild (though a automatic shotgun will do wonders)

Only if you use sawed off shotgun or buckshot is it AOE. Buckshot hits the target and others in 4 foot area, with sawed off can shoot 9 foot diameter. The range is greatly reduced though and you can just roll out of the harm's way, again.

Yes your dodge is going to be very usefull, but its pretty easy to counter if a person is willing to do so (range, area fire ect)

You can always do a dodge roll and considering they're ancient masters, they can leap out of the harm's way unless it's radius is insanely huge, like say Thermite grenade or something of such. But at that point, I think you'd do damage to yourself too.

[eliakon]

Assuming that the Side kicks 'boss' is there. In comics all the time there are stories with the sidekick alone. Personally I would be leary of allowing a PC to have an older more powerfull NPC as part of their equipment (unless its solo play then its not so disruptive) Of course that begs the question of why a foe high enough level to chalange the higher level anchient master is not tough enough to deal with the both of them.

As part of their equipment...?

The requirement of sidekick is that you have to have at least level 4 hero to train you. In this case, either me or my friend would roll for ancient master and the other person would roll for the sidekick.

Thats fine, if you dont mind having a lv4 and alv1 character, and then there are two heros...so the villians should be set up for two chracters not just one (eg there might be 2 people, you cant just assume you get to double team them)

Now onto Dodges.
Page 63, bottom. Puts dodging bullets at -6 with straight rolls only.

Page 63 says -4 and the penalty is ignored if the character has initiative.

the minus four is ignored, its still a straight roll

next There are no clear cut rules for dodging Area attacks, espeically somehting like a cloud. Saying that you can just 'dodge' teargas is sort of counter intuitive, you could LEAVE the area of the gas...but then you cant melee the person in it (who if they have a mask/sealed armor/etc can keep shooting you with hard to dodge guns)

There's no rules against dodging gas, so dodging it means the grenade doesn't hit my area and I roll out of the effective range, not that I dodge and then it's totally pointless. There'd be no point in fighting anyone using gas or anything if there's no way for me to do anything about it.

It doesnt mean its pointless, I am saying that a dodge doesnt automatically mean you get to move ten, twenty fifty feet or more for free. If an attack hits a 50' radius, then unless you can MOVE 50' in a few seconds you cant dodge it.

page 80 just says "mini-missles are USUALLY unguided" so yah, if I am facing a dodge monster, expect to face guided mini-missles

How do you make a mini missile guided?

by saying 'this is guided'? the fact that it says usually means that it CAN be done. Hardware characters or Fabricators both come to mind right off.

Shotguns are already area attacks, I dont NEED to shoot wild (though a automatic shotgun will do wonders)

Only if you use sawed off shotgun or buckshot is it AOE. Buckshot hits the target and others in 4 foot area, with sawed off can shoot 9 foot diameter. The range is greatly reduced though and you can just roll out of the harm's way, again.

yes you can dodge (straight roll only)

[NMI]

As for dodging gas attacks or any sort of attack that has a "blast radius", you have to have the means to escape the radius of the attack.

If the Grenadier lobs a grenade as Sidestep, is it possible that Sidestep deftly ducks the grenade and said grenade detonates somewhere in the distance? Yes, but what if our villains aims for a point next to or near Sidestep? Villains and Heroes, GM's and Players should be a bit more specific when they launch said type of attacks. Of course, GM's dont need to specify to the players, unless the players PC has a way of reading the villains mind, etc... but players should be specific.

[eliakon]

so, what were to happen if, say, a hardware character were to come at you with say, a modifided apache longbow gunship?

quiet (won't be heard over average street traffic)

base line weapon loadout:
a 30mm chain gun: range 6000ft, 2d6x10 per bullet, 1200 round onboard

4 hard points the options are
-rocket pod, 19 Precision guided hydra 70s: range about 8 miles, doing about 2d6x10, 50ft blast radius, each
-AIM-92 Stinger 4 per hard point: range 3.1 miles, 2d4x100 each, 100ft radius

4 AIM-92 stinger missiles: see above

and whatever modifications the mechanic decides on adding
(I'm thinking lasers, maybe a cloaking device, and a shield for good measure)

and yes, I have played against villains with helicopter support, doesn't end well for the heroes most of the time.

Well off hand I am assuming there is a reason that the GM would choose to send a mainline heavy military unit after a PC. Of course anyone can be beaten theoretically if you throw enough firepower after them, its justifying the firepower while not coming off as a killer GM, or Arbitrary. Its also assuming that for some reason the REST of society is just sitting around watching. The advantage supers have is that they are not obvious untill they use their powers, and can blend in. Helicopter gunships attacking down town tends to make the local governments unhappy in the extreame, the sort of unhappy that results in the deployement of said governments own forces (military, sanctioned supers, etc) Its also hard to HIDE a helicopter. So while heavy weapons are a solution to a character....they should probably have a logical reason to be there besides "well this can beat you."

[Ranger]

Also what would work, Nuke the building, or carpet bombing the area they are in.

[Ranger]

I like your simple and methodical way of thinking Ranger

If you are an established hero/villain that has proven to be a hard target, sometimes those who fight you go for a hard kill, regardless of the damage to others.

[green.nova343]

It just occured to me, if one wants to make the best character in the game, they want to be a sidekick to Ancient Master. You get Martial Arts Mastery and all the tons of bonuses like dual wielding and all holds and all kicks and intitative and strike bonuses at level 1, PLUS, athletics and body building, basic mech, basic electronics and two scholastic skills of my choice from the mentor and 6 secondary skills of my choice! Combine that with starting as minor and you get permanent +1 dodge bonus for life! And when they mature, all the stat negatives go away, leaving a pretty much unstoppable behemoth. And even if their stats would be subpar, Martial Arts Mastery still gives bonuses to hand to hand damage and parry and dodge and if they actually get stat bonuses too, they are pretty much supernatural levels. (Not to mention, under positive energy they can literally deal supernatural damage) I did some math and if I counted right the lowest ancient master can be is level 4 with 8 melee attacks for that level, counting 2 starting and 1 from boxing would mean they'd get like 5 attacks per melee from the martial arts master fighting style, probably 2 at level 1 or so as well. (And since you can take any two scholastic, why not take boxing and say, acrobatics from the ancient master?)

This way, you've just created a young teen who continues growing and becoming better (even more so) and has no limitations or any of the bad things that come from taking Ancinent Master usually and they probably cap almost every fight related bonus by age of 20. Is this even possible? I looked at both Rifter 16th and Heroes and neither said anything against it. In fact, and I quote

"Usually only Hardware, Physical Training and Special Training characters will take a sidekick.

Ancient Master is the very FIRST character class under Special Training even.


And if you want to go really nuts, you can even put the sidekick under ancient master and if rolled as Mega Hero, you can dual class that sidekick into robotics and give them a fancy super robot suit so that they can take down everything in every situation when regular powers and wits aren't enough.


Please tell me I'm reading this wrong or did I just really create the ultimate way of creating unstoppable heroes?

Well, to get back to our original topic...

I'm going to have to say that there are issues with having a Sidekick of an Ancient Master. First of all, since it's omitted from the list available via random selection (only Hunter/Vigilante and Stage Magician are allowed on the table), and it definitely fits the reasoning presented in the article of, "...some Special Training characters are assumed to have trained for many years...", the idea of a teenage "Ancient Master" just kind of sticks in the back of my throat. It also specifically forbids a teen Mega-Hero as well.

Beyond that, however, let's look at the problem of HTH training. The rule in Rifter #16 specifically states, "The same Hand to Hand style as the mentor, at first level". Problem #1 with that is...the HU2 Ancient Master doesn't have a listed HTH training. They have a category-specific listing (like the Physical Training category), with starting bonuses that put most experience characters to shame. Now, if you compare those bonuses with the HU Revised version (HTH: Martial Arts at 15th level, plus Boxing), and also compare those bonuses to the combination of the "new" HTH: Martial Arts (15th level proficiency, plus Boxing & Wrestling bonuses), you'll find that it provides a very close approximation to the HU2 Ancient Master's combat skills. So, if your GM is supremely nice enough to allow you to take a "Sidekick" option that's apparently not allowed by the rules anyway, your Sidekick would end up with HTH: Martial Arts (1st level proficiency), & has to use his skill selections to get Boxing & Wrestling (which, since they're not allowed as Secondary skills, means selecting the Physical/Athletics skill program in order to pick them).

As for the special powers of the Ancient Master, they would get a maximum of two: 1 at 4th and 1 at 7th. And even then, that means that if they pick the Positive Energy and Channel Physical Energy abilities, they miss out on the others... like being able to select a minor superpower like Healing Factor or Extraordinary P.E.

To be honest, though, what I don't like about the article is the "Sidekick" option anyway. I like the idea of the tables for adjusting Education, Attributes, and starting Equipment for the regular categories, as it recognizes that they haven't physically & mentally matured yet...and gives you a reason to have the teen hero hold off on adventuring until they can "go to college", so to speak. I just feel like the "Sidekick" option gives you a "hero lite" version of the mentor, without the chance for the sidekick to ever be more than a shadow of their mentor (since they can never have the same number of abilities or even as full of an education as the mentor).

[Regularguy]

the idea of a teenage "Ancient Master" just kind of sticks in the back of my throat.

Sidekick aside, just bear in mind that a ninth-level Ancient Master can start play at the ripe old age of thirty-two after having spent years in the modern world learning how to program computers in between picking locks and flying planes as a streetwise legal researcher with a knowledge of business and finance.

By definition, a guy like that must have spent his teens and twenties mastering the combat arts: that's when he would've been eighth-level, seventh-level, and et cetera on down to being -- well, a first-level sidekick, or something, right?

[green.nova343]

the idea of a teenage "Ancient Master" just kind of sticks in the back of my throat.

Sidekick aside, just bear in mind that a ninth-level Ancient Master can start play at the ripe old age of thirty-two after having spent years in the modern world learning how to program computers in between picking locks and flying planes as a streetwise legal researcher with a knowledge of business and finance.

By definition, a guy like that must have spent his teens and twenties mastering the combat arts: that's when he would've been eighth-level, seventh-level, and et cetera on down to being -- well, a first-level sidekick, or something, right?

Those are going to be the rare Ancient Masters, though. There's only a 15% chance of an Ancient Master starting at age 32, of which only 20% have a chance of having spent 2 years in the "modern" world, of which only 1 in 6 has a chance of "starting" the game at 9th level. That means, on average, maybe 1 in 200 will meet that criteria. The chances are just as likely for the Ancient Master to be 90 years old, just having entered the modern world a few weeks before, & only be 4th level. Not to say that it can't happen, but it's just not very likely.

The problem, though, is that there's still the issue with the "Sidekick" never having the chance to be as powerful as their mentor. Even the very young "Ancient Master" has spent years training in martial arts to achieve a supremacy not found anywhere else. Yet even should a "Sidekick" reach the 9th level proficiency by age 32, they'll still be far below his proficiency in that area, which is the whole point of the Ancient Master. So I still don't see much of a use for it for that particular class.

[Regularguy]

The problem, though, is that there's still the issue with the "Sidekick" never having the chance to be as powerful as their mentor. Even the very young "Ancient Master" has spent years training in martial arts to achieve a supremacy not found anywhere else. Yet even should a "Sidekick" reach the 9th level proficiency by age 32, they'll still be far below his proficiency in that area, which is the whole point of the Ancient Master.

I'm not sure I follow you; are you okay with, say, him being the teenaged 4th-level sidekick to an 8th-level Ancient Master in his early thirties?

If so, I don't see the problem. If not, what level do you figure the 8th-level guy would have been in his twenties, in his teens?

[green.nova343]

The problem, though, is that there's still the issue with the "Sidekick" never having the chance to be as powerful as their mentor. Even the very young "Ancient Master" has spent years training in martial arts to achieve a supremacy not found anywhere else. Yet even should a "Sidekick" reach the 9th level proficiency by age 32, they'll still be far below his proficiency in that area, which is the whole point of the Ancient Master.

I'm not sure I follow you; are you okay with, say, him being the teenaged 4th-level sidekick to an 8th-level Ancient Master in his early thirties?

If so, I don't see the problem. If not, what level do you figure the 8th-level guy would have been in his twenties, in his teens?

Palladium doesn't have rules for equating age with XP/experience levels, so it's hard to say.

My point, though, was that the Sidekick option already gives you a hero that's going to a "hero lite", no matter what type of mentor they have. They'll never have the same number of special abilities/skills, and their skills start off at a much lower proficiency (i.e. a Sidekick Mechanical Genius at 1st level is nowhere near as proficient at building/repairing super-vehicles as a "real" Mechanical Genius). More telling, though, is that the Ancient Master learned his trade not by going out & adventuring, but by holing up in a temple/on a mountainside/some other remote & inaccessible location. Someone approaching him and saying, 'I want to be just like you, can you teach me?" is more likely to be told, "Take this letter to the Blue Pearl Temple of Contemplation, and speak with my old master, Soon Tu Qik-Ur-As", than "Sure, I'll teach you what I know, even though I spent decades doing nothing but working on developing my skills".

However...if, for example, they wanted to study with the master & learn a particular martial art form -- something that N&SS had rules for using with HU Revised, & could be adapted to HU2 as well --- then I could see the potential for the "sidekick" being from another power category, or even adapting the Worldly Martial Artist from N&SS (maybe modified to where they require double XP to progress, since they're learning a martial art other than one of the generic types). This might be a situation more like the 1980's TV show "The Master", where a Ninja decided to leave his clan and, while being pursued by them, took an American under his wing. IIRC, he taught the "student" some of the philosophical ideas, as well as few of their "tricks" (like fooling motion detectors), but the 'student' by no means was anywhere close to being a "real" Ninja.

[Regularguy]

Someone approaching him and saying, 'I want to be just like you, can you teach me?" is more likely to be told, "Take this letter to the Blue Pearl Temple of Contemplation, and speak with my old master, Soon Tu Qik-Ur-As", than "Sure, I'll teach you what I know, even though I spent decades doing nothing but working on developing my skills".

Ah, but "nothing but" ain't a fair description of how he spent those decades: "During this time, he or she has taught many others and has led a happy and fulfilled life." And you're likewise glossing over what he'll be up to in the modern world: "May offer services as a teacher of martial arts..."

So he may well do again what he already did before -- and why wouldn't he, if they're both of the same good alignment? Can't he best serve as a disciple of discipline and order by teaching a like-minded disciple who can teach like-minded disciples?

Palladium doesn't have rules for equating age with XP/experience levels, so it's hard to say.

Well, it's not that hard to say; coming back around to my earlier point, if you roll up an eighth-level Ancient Master who starts play at the age of thirty-two, and he spent "decades" mastering the combat arts before journeying into the modern world -- and he got here two years ago instead of being "just off the boat" -- then, sure, maybe he was 4th-level as a teen and maybe he wasn't, but at worst he was in his twenties when he worked his way through all those levels. By definition, right?

[green.nova343]

Someone approaching him and saying, 'I want to be just like you, can you teach me?" is more likely to be told, "Take this letter to the Blue Pearl Temple of Contemplation, and speak with my old master, Soon Tu Qik-Ur-As", than "Sure, I'll teach you what I know, even though I spent decades doing nothing but working on developing my skills".

Ah, but "nothing but" ain't a fair description of how he spent those decades: "During this time, he or she has taught many others and has led a happy and fulfilled life." And you're likewise glossing over what he'll be up to in the modern world: "May offer services as a teacher of martial arts..."

So he may well do again what he already did before -- and why wouldn't he, if they're both of the same good alignment? Can't he best serve as a disciple of discipline and order by teaching a like-minded disciple who can teach like-minded disciples?

Perhaps "nothing" isn't the right term... but the Ancient Master was not adventuring during that time. And while they might be semi-well-known (although more likely somewhat legendary) among the martial arts fans, the average person wouldn't know who they were. Sure, Bruce Lee's name is known to the general public... but that's because a) he made a lot of movies that were popular around the world (including one of the few onscreen times that Chuck Norris was beaten), and b) he died at a very young age which spawned a number of conspiracy theories about the circumstances (including, apparently, that he was the victim of a Dim Mak attack). Until his acting career, the general public didn't really know who he was.

Same thing happens with an Ancient Master. They may be more experienced than the average hero when they embark on their adventuring, but it's not until then that the general public would start to notice them...and that being the more likely time that someone will want to apprentice with him.

But again, we get to the whole issue of why deciding to be a sidekick in the first place, especially for someone like the Ancient Master. That particular category is highly skill-based, yet the sidekicks can never have have the number of skills that their mentor has...and in this case, they can never hope to match their mentor's combat training (by the time the sidekick reaches 15th level, he'll finally match his mentor's 1st-level[b] abilities). For the Ancient Master, a true student that he can pass on his learning to...would be an Ancient Master-in-training, one that completes their training [b]before adventuring as a hero (unlike the sidekick, who is meant to be adventuring at the Ancient Master's side). I would think it more likely that any students would be back at the same location where the Ancient Master learned his own trade (possibly being taught by an even more experienced, semi-retired Ancient Master).

That doesn't mean the Ancient Master can't have a partner/assistant that goes around with him, someone that he could perhaps teach Taoism or some other Oriential philosophy to, or perhaps even oversee their advancement in a particular martial arts form. But that sidekick is more likely to be from another power category. A good choice would be Physical Training, as they lose less skills when picking a martial arts form & can even pick exclusive forms; Hunters/Vigilantes would also be good, as they only need to spend 1 additional skill (although they can't pick exclusives).

Palladium doesn't have rules for equating age with XP/experience levels, so it's hard to say.

Well, it's not that hard to say; coming back around to my earlier point, if you roll up an eighth-level Ancient Master who starts play at the age of thirty-two, and he spent "decades" mastering the combat arts before journeying into the modern world -- and he got here two years ago instead of being "just off the boat" -- then, sure, maybe he was 4th-level as a teen and maybe he wasn't, but at worst he was in his twenties when he worked his way through all those levels. By definition, right?

For that particular character, yes. But again, that's going to be a rare occurance (see the "1 in 200" I mentioned earlier). He could just as easily have only recently come from the monastary, or be starting at 4th level. As for how quickly he earns his XP, if it were in-game it would depend a lot upon how you look at it.

Let's say, for example, that the Ancient Master starts when he was 12, trains until he's 30, then spends 2 years wandering around in the modern world before starting his superhero career. In order to start at 9th level (maximum allowed), he'd have to earn (69,961 XP / 18 years / 365.25 days per year) = ~10-11 XP/day. While that may sound like a lot, you get 25 XP every time you attempt a skill, even if it's not successful. And that doesn't take into account sparring with opponents (chance for an extra 25-50 XP for low-level "menaces", 75-100 for major, 150-300 for top-level ones). Even only giving him 25 XP/day (more likely that he'd be able to earn 50/day), the Ancient Master would only need maybe 8 years to earn enough XP...putting his starting age at 22 (far from being a teenager).

And, since we're talking about age, consider that the 90-year-old 9th-level Ancient Master has the same starting XP as the 32-year-old Ancient Master, as well as having the same abilities, combat training & mostly the same skills. Yet one of them is old enough to be the other's grandfather (if not great-grandfather). The most logical explanation is that the younger one dedicated their time to training themselves, while the other one was more likely to have extra time to take on other students & be a teacher. While it's not impossible for someone that focused on their own skill development to take on an apprentice, they're probably more likely to say, "I got to this point by training 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year, and doing nothing else; I can train you, but that's how the training is going to be"...in essense, making the student an Ancient Master-in-training rather than a sub-par "sidekick".

[Tor]

it is a "Side-kick to an Ancient master". Not a "sidekick ancient master."
Yeeeeessssss, there is a difference. One is a sidekick to an ancient master the other is an ancient master that is a sidekick to someone else.

TBH I think simply describing someone as a sidekick isn't enough. Really anybody could be a sidekick to an ancient master without training to be one.

How about Ancient Master in Training or AMIT? Trainee is a better label for what this Rifter's Sidekick class describes, I think, since it reflects actually trying to become a class and not merely assisting someone in it.

Tor, get your words right

You need to work on your wording too DG.

EDIT: Let's not be rude! - NMI

Not speaking for Dober, but I think drew's rudeness is awesome and I love being corrected and discussing semantics, so I give indefinite consent for he and any others who want to risk rudeness by correcting my grammar

counters:
robot pilot "I fire a 10 missile volley at him"
anybody "I shoot him"

Dodging those with +4 automatic dodge.

Neat. But when you dodge, does your leaping distance put you outside of the blast radius of the missle? Food for thought.

Course if you manage to close into hand to hand range, they might avoid using missles since they would also take blast radius damage from them.

Then again, Robots have a natural AR and usually more SDC than even an Ancient Master, so it might be worth the risk.

you cant dodge volly fire

possible penalties to dodge modern weapons (I dont know if it applies to HU)

I imagine it does, although I'm not sure if missles get grouped in with bullets and laser guns, not sure about how the speeds compare. Missles are rather visible projectiles by comparison.

you cant dodge suprise attacks (like sniper fire)

Yeah but missles aren't exactly silent are they? Unless they go faster than sound surely there'd be some warning. BTW eli, I am reading pg 209 of HU2, the Missle Launcher Pods option (5 under Giant/Vehicular Style Robot Weapons, which AFAIK is the guideline to robots getting missles) assuming you're using a Large pod, I am wondering, are you using mediums or shorts or minis as your ammo?

Reason I ask is HU does say you can dodge volleys of 2-3. It's the 4+ that can't be dodged. I imagine this means you're not going to be using medium-rangers.

So assuming you're using Minis or Shorts, they don't have that much SDC, so I imagine the ancient master would have some throwing knives or shurikens or something along those lines to throw at and detonaet at least one of the missles in your volley, which would have a small chance of detonating the whole thing.

Even if there are penalties to dodge missles comparable to lasers, striking them is well within their means. Especially if it's the speed-ninja type of AM in Century Station since their ExtSpd would allow them to attack 4 of the missles before getting hit by the volley.

Or are you setting this up as disposable Gun Pods (option 10 on same page)? That could give you some more ammo I guess, though you'd need a place to store a bunch of them for replacements.

Took me a while of flipping around to find the missle guidelines on pages 80-82. I think the Robot character section (and Cyborg) should both make clearer references to that, easy to forget it's early on in the book.

dont forget that positive energy saps half your actions per melee.

Yeah, based on that (and the low range) it wouldn't be suitable for shooting down missles like their other ranged weapons might be.

YES I know they have to be guided, but that is still possible, and since RIFTS specifically has to state that THEIR missles arnt guided, then yes guided missles are possible

This issue is rather murky. It says all missiles except mini are assumed to be (self) guided. Conventional/self-guided is something separate than Smart though...

Of course later it says "all missiles are self-guided" with no mentions of minis being excepted, so I dunno. Of course earlier under Strikes: Guided Missiles it says "mini-missiles are usually unguided and have no bonuses".

Course if you're not aiming at the person and just aiming at the ground below them to hit them with a blast radius, a lack of strike bonuses won't matter since there's no dodge to overcome. It's a radius versus leap length contest at that point, assuming that someone doing a dodge is able to incorporate a full length leap into it.

So I think it's like the missile aids the shooter in targeting someone initially, but only to lock on for minor calibrations, as opposed to missing and doing a 180 changing direction to continue attacking the target.

One thing about smart missiles: shouldn't they have a duration limit? I mean I get that a smart missile has a couple attacks and can dodge strikes at them (assuming not auto-dodge so this would prevent it from making an attack attempt) but surely after a while of flying around a smart missile would run out of juice and fall down? Couldn't fly forever right? That'd just be scary. ... ah wait, it says 100 miles or 10 melee rounds, cool.

I'm unclear on whether the 'impossible to dodge 4' rule applies to ALL missiles or only guided missiles though. It is not clear whether or not someone could dodge 4 unguided mini missiles, for example. It's also not clear how we figure out if a mini-missile is guided or not, as it indicates some are and some are not. Presumably a guided mini-missile would cost more than an unguided one but I don't see any guidelines for this.

*does massive spellcheck to change missle > missile*

There's no dodge modern weapons penalty. That'd be silly. The only penalty is if there's an emptying spray.

Actually there is. Pg 63 of HU2 under "dodging energy blasts and bullets". You don't get bonuses (straight roll) are -4. The penalty is ignored if the dodger has initiative though, or if the shooter isn't trying to hurt people (which I find an odd concept). This also mentions 'rockets' which I assume is a reference to missiles, which could mean that dodging missles is also done without bonuses and with a penalty. That's not clear though. We could assume that rockets are something else and that people do get bonuses and no penalties versus missles. Up to GM to interpret I guess.

Considering the speeds missles travel at though (500-1400 for mini, 450-650 for short, 1000-1600 for medium) that's probably in the 'bullet' range though.

15th level Defensive+Fast physical training are a bit better at dodging energy/bullets. Rather than rolling with no bonuses, they get half of their usual dodge bonuses, which is probably helpful.

Another thing that makes dodging (or parrying) energy blasts or bullets harder is it does not benefit from the 'defender wins ties' rule. It specifies that you must roll HIGHER (not 'equal or higher' as usual for defensive actions) to avoid them.

Now onto Dodges. Page 63, bottom. Puts dodging bullets at -6 with straight rolls only.

Are you sure? My printing says -4. I have the first printing from March 1998, which printing of HU2 do you have? Perhaps they increased it in later prints?

I looked at both Rifter 16th and Heroes and neither said anything against it. In fact, and I quote

"Usually only Hardware, Physical Training and Special Training characters will take a sidekick.

Ancient Master is the very FIRST character class under Special Training even.

The rule in Rifter #16 specifically states, "The same Hand to Hand style as the mentor, at first level".

On a less related note, am only now realizing that Rifter 16 has the same cover as Nightbane 4: Shadows of Light. Way to splurge Palladium.