Black Steel Centipede???

[drewkitty ~..~]

If there is it is a dragon or a god in ether PF:D&G or RCB2. Or it is in a Rifter.

[Nekira Sudacne]

the black steel centipeid is the strongest monster in the game, physically, in terms of raw damage. as far as damage capacity they're on par with lesser gods.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Luckily damage capacity isn't everything. It's heavily possible for other characters to kill it, assuming they could avoid being damaged. Fung Shei guys who can tap into and amplify massive chi sources come to mind as guys who could take them.

Of course they're not impossible, but they're not really intended for casual games either.

For example: What if there simply arn't any massive chi sources around to tap? you don't always get to pick your battles.

[Regularguy]

For example: What if there simply arn't any massive chi sources around to tap?

Hey, there's a source somewhere, right? So you discorporate to become one with the universe, acquire enough fuel to max out your Body Chi, and pulp the thing with one shot?

[Nekira Sudacne]

For example: What if there simply arn't any massive chi sources around to tap?

Hey, there's a source somewhere, right? So you discorporate to become one with the universe, acquire enough fuel to max out your Body Chi, and pulp the thing with one shot?

Discorporate resotres you to your maximum. No more no less. it may or may not be enough to one shot it depending on your chi reserves.

But hey, Body chi has always been rediculously broken.

[Regularguy]

Discorporate resotres you to your maximum. No more no less. it may or may not be enough to one shot it depending on your chi reserves.

But hey, Body chi has always been rediculously broken.

Would it be less broken if a martial artist one-shots it with Hard Chi instead?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'm not sure it's possible. assuming a decent PE score of 25 as base, and assuming your feng seui guy took a chi orented style, the most he'd have is about 200 or so. hard chi would max out around +400 damage. Not nearly enough to take down a black steel centapeid.

[Regularguy]

I'm not sure it's possible. assuming a decent PE score of 25 as base, and assuming your feng seui guy took a chi orented style, the most he'd have is about 200 or so. hard chi would max out around +400 damage. Not nearly enough to take down a black steel centapeid.

I was thinking of a Tai Chi stylist: assume that 25 PE, if you want; add +15 to chi for taking Tai Chi; eventually double that 40 to 80, then double it again to 160, then double it again to 320, and then double it again to 640; if you've taken Chi Overcharge, double that to 1280, for to deal out a little over +2500 damage.

Now figure the guy's a Dedicated Martial Artist who pairs Tai Chi with Snake Style -- which means you increase the chi to 2560, and to 5120, and to 10240, and to 20480 -- for to deal out more than +40,000 damage. (Or, if we instead assume a lackluster PE of 10, "more than +20,000 damage.")

[Nekira Sudacne]

Luckily damage capacity isn't everything. It's heavily possible for other characters to kill it, assuming they could avoid being damaged. Fung Shei guys who can tap into and amplify massive chi sources come to mind as guys who could take them.

Of course they're not impossible, but they're not really intended for casual games either.

For example: What if there simply arn't any massive chi sources around to tap? you don't always get to pick your battles.

In that case you run away and find one Assuming you can outrun the centipede...

You find one, and...what incentive does the Centipeid have to follow you? the text makes it clear that the Yami Kings consider them aces in the hole, things that turn the tide of battles between devine entities and armies of supernatural beings. They arn't going to send one after one lone feng shei dude.

[Nightmask]

I'm not sure it's possible. assuming a decent PE score of 25 as base, and assuming your feng seui guy took a chi orented style, the most he'd have is about 200 or so. hard chi would max out around +400 damage. Not nearly enough to take down a black steel centapeid.

I was thinking of a Tai Chi stylist: assume that 25 PE, if you want; add +15 to chi for taking Tai Chi; eventually double that 40 to 80, then double it again to 160, then double it again to 320, and then double it again to 640; if you've taken Chi Overcharge, double that to 1280, for to deal out a little over +2500 damage.

Now figure the guy's a Dedicated Martial Artist who pairs Tai Chi with Snake Style -- which means you increase the chi to 2560, and to 5120, and to 10240, and to 20480 -- for to deal out more than +40,000 damage. (Or, if we instead assume a lackluster PE of 10, "more than +20,000 damage.")

As GM I kill your character for power gaming and just plain ridiculus behavior

You do realize that that's requiring a very high PE AND achieving somewhere around 12th to 15th level right? And decidedly not power gaming since the doubling of Chi for certain MA like Tai Chi is per the book, it's built right into the RPG as an acceptable deal. Chi into the hundreds range is obviously a common thing for certain MA by mid-level, and getting up into the thousands at high level.

[JuliusCreed]

I'm not sure it's possible. assuming a decent PE score of 25 as base, and assuming your feng seui guy took a chi orented style, the most he'd have is about 200 or so. hard chi would max out around +400 damage. Not nearly enough to take down a black steel centapeid.

I was thinking of a Tai Chi stylist: assume that 25 PE, if you want; add +15 to chi for taking Tai Chi; eventually double that 40 to 80, then double it again to 160, then double it again to 320, and then double it again to 640; if you've taken Chi Overcharge, double that to 1280, for to deal out a little over +2500 damage.

Now figure the guy's a Dedicated Martial Artist who pairs Tai Chi with Snake Style -- which means you increase the chi to 2560, and to 5120, and to 10240, and to 20480 -- for to deal out more than +40,000 damage. (Or, if we instead assume a lackluster PE of 10, "more than +20,000 damage.")

As GM I kill your character for power gaming and just plain ridiculus behavior

To heck with it... I'll just use someone with Tamashiwara and break the darn thing with one punch!

[Colt47]

I'm not sure it's possible. assuming a decent PE score of 25 as base, and assuming your feng seui guy took a chi orented style, the most he'd have is about 200 or so. hard chi would max out around +400 damage. Not nearly enough to take down a black steel centapeid.

I was thinking of a Tai Chi stylist: assume that 25 PE, if you want; add +15 to chi for taking Tai Chi; eventually double that 40 to 80, then double it again to 160, then double it again to 320, and then double it again to 640; if you've taken Chi Overcharge, double that to 1280, for to deal out a little over +2500 damage.

Now figure the guy's a Dedicated Martial Artist who pairs Tai Chi with Snake Style -- which means you increase the chi to 2560, and to 5120, and to 10240, and to 20480 -- for to deal out more than +40,000 damage. (Or, if we instead assume a lackluster PE of 10, "more than +20,000 damage.")

As GM I kill your character for power gaming and just plain ridiculus behavior

I think you are thinking about this the wrong way. His character has spent his whole life gathering chi, practicing first at breaking bricks, then putting massive dents in iron bars, then breaking through steel vault doors, just so he can finally, right before his great retirement, attempt to break a black steel centipede from the yama hells in half! That takes some massive dedication.

[barna10]

Where is the black steel centipede from?

[AzathothXy]

Where is the black steel centipede from?

Mystic China.

[barna10]

Where is the black steel centipede from?

Mystic China.

Thanks

[Trooper Jim]

I'm not sure it's possible. assuming a decent PE score of 25 as base, and assuming your feng seui guy took a chi orented style, the most he'd have is about 200 or so. hard chi would max out around +400 damage. Not nearly enough to take down a black steel centapeid.

I was thinking of a Tai Chi stylist: assume that 25 PE, if you want; add +15 to chi for taking Tai Chi; eventually double that 40 to 80, then double it again to 160, then double it again to 320, and then double it again to 640; if you've taken Chi Overcharge, double that to 1280, for to deal out a little over +2500 damage.

Now figure the guy's a Dedicated Martial Artist who pairs Tai Chi with Snake Style -- which means you increase the chi to 2560, and to 5120, and to 10240, and to 20480 -- for to deal out more than +40,000 damage. (Or, if we instead assume a lackluster PE of 10, "more than +20,000 damage.")

As GM I kill your character for power gaming and just plain ridiculus behavior

Or you could just let him play his character and find creative ways to challenge him.

[barna10]

Or you could just let him play his character and find creative ways to challenge him.

What would be the point? It's not like this is a roleplaying game or any...wait!

[Trooper Jim]

Or you could just let him play his character and find creative ways to challenge him.

What would be the point? It's not like this is a roleplaying game or any...wait!

Exactly!

[Tor]

I just realized, there's this chi magic spell that allows you to summon an infernal and have it do your bidding... and there isn't any exception made for the black steel centipede.

The only downside to that is: they're relatively intelligent, and like Demons and those Leopard assassins, they not only have the power to return to hell, but also the power to travel from hell to the real world.

So once the spell ends, an angry centipede might come back after you send him back and stomp you as vengeance for enslaving it.

That's probably why most chi mages stick to the infernals who don't have the power to come to the real world under their own power, like the dogs and monkeys and snakes.

The spirits on the other hand, don't have the power to go back to hell, so the problem with them is they can't obey the order to be sent back, and will remain around in the real world (possibly to cause trouble) once the spell ends.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I just realized, there's this chi magic spell that allows you to summon an infernal and have it do your bidding... and there isn't any exception made for the black steel centipede.

The only downside to that is: they're relatively intelligent, and like Demons and those Leopard assassins, they not only have the power to return to hell, but also the power to travel from hell to the real world.

So once the spell ends, an angry centipede might come back after you send him back and stomp you as vengeance for enslaving it.

That's probably why most chi mages stick to the infernals who don't have the power to come to the real world under their own power, like the dogs and monkeys and snakes.

The spirits on the other hand, don't have the power to go back to hell, so the problem with them is they can't obey the order to be sent back, and will remain around in the real world (possibly to cause trouble) once the spell ends.

It actually does say that only the Yama Kings can control them, IIRC.

[Tor]

Hm, hard to tell if that overrides the spell or not. I kinda assumed that to mean under normal circumstances (when unenchanted).

Like in theory only the creator of a mummy/zombie/golem can control them, but if protection circles or whatever spells affect them (though I know they're limited) are used, they may be unable to complete their master's commands since they're controlled by the magic.

[Nightmask]

Hm, hard to tell if that overrides the spell or not. I kinda assumed that to mean under normal circumstances (when unenchanted).

Like in theory only the creator of a mummy/zombie/golem can control them, but if protection circles or whatever spells affect them (though I know they're limited) are used, they may be unable to complete their master's commands since they're controlled by the magic.

Some things are just not subject to those kinds of spells, just like you can't command a Yama King because those pesky mortal magicks aren't ever going to rob them of their free will and ability to act as they see fit. Black Steel Centipedes are in the same class.

[Nekira Sudacne]

More or less. it outright says that the Black Steel Centipeids were used to take control of the nine hells through violence from whatever dark gods ruled them before the yama kings. Making them similar to the Hundred Handed that Zeus used to help overthrow the titans. Such beings, while not what you would really consider a god in their own right, are on the same level of being, and similarly are not subject to control through mortal magic. It takes a true god to bind such beings as lesser powers simply won't hold them.

Also given how critical their control is to their power base, I figured that the yama kings had done something similar to encorcell for mortal shifters: Simultaniously making it near-impossible for them to resist your magical influence while giving them immunity to anyone else controling them.

It may be possible in theory to take control of a Black Steel Centipeid, but you would have to find a way to break the Yama kings control first, and given that that's devine level power controling them, you'd need to also have godlike power to even make the attempt.

[Tor]

you can't command a Yama King because those pesky mortal magicks aren't ever going to rob them of their free will and ability to act as they see fit. Black Steel Centipedes are in the same class.

Hm... to be technical, I think the Yama Kings, much like the Overlords, ARE Infernals... so unless it says they're excepted... why should they be?

Such beings, while not what you would really consider a god in their own right, are on the same level of being, and similarly are not subject to control through mortal magic. It takes a true god to bind such beings as lesser powers simply won't hold them.

Gods aren't immune to mortal magic. They tend to resist it quite well due to awesome saving throws, and many mortals won't even try it due to knowing the repercussions once the spell ends, but it can happen.

Also given how critical their control is to their power base, I figured that the yama kings had done something similar to encorcell for mortal shifters: Simultaniously making it near-impossible for them to resist your magical influence while giving them immunity to anyone else controling them.

A possibility, but Ensorcel is pretty expensive for its duration. I guess it'd be worth it for something as powerful as the Centipedes and if anyone had the PPE from people dying all the time, it'd be the Yama Kings...

It does beg the question about whether or not Ensorcel would protect a minion from something that lacks a savings throw though. I'll need to rerear FoM again.

It may be possible in theory to take control of a Black Steel Centipeid, but you would have to find a way to break the Yama kings control first, and given that that's devine level power controling them, you'd need to also have godlike power to even make the attempt.

Assuming the Yama Kings have chi magic, we might assume they constantly are casting this very spell on the Centipedes.

This begs the question of what happens when someone casts a control spell on something already subject to a control spell. I don't know if Palladium has rules on that.

[Nekira Sudacne]

you can't command a Yama King because those pesky mortal magicks aren't ever going to rob them of their free will and ability to act as they see fit. Black Steel Centipedes are in the same class.

Hm... to be technical, I think the Yama Kings, much like the Overlords, ARE Infernals... so unless it says they're excepted... why should they be?

They may be infernals only insofar as as zeus can be considered human.

Such beings, while not what you would really consider a god in their own right, are on the same level of being, and similarly are not subject to control through mortal magic. It takes a true god to bind such beings as lesser powers simply won't hold them.

Gods aren't immune to mortal magic. They tend to resist it quite well due to awesome saving throws, and many mortals won't even try it due to knowing the repercussions once the spell ends, but it can happen.

I'm not saying that in the sense they are immune to magic, rather there's no spell "Summon and control deity" or "control/enslave deity".

Put it another way: it's made quite clear that a demon summoning circle can't summon the demon lords, so why should summon infernal summon infernal lords? it's not spelled out as explicitly but there's such a thing as logic and pattern recognition.

Also given how critical their control is to their power base, I figured that the yama kings had done something similar to encorcell for mortal shifters: Simultaniously making it near-impossible for them to resist your magical influence while giving them immunity to anyone else controling them.

A possibility, but Ensorcel is pretty expensive for its duration. I guess it'd be worth it for something as powerful as the Centipedes and if anyone had the PPE from people dying all the time, it'd be the Yama Kings...

It does beg the question about whether or not Ensorcel would protect a minion from something that lacks a savings throw though. I'll need to rerear FoM again.

I said "Something like Ensorcel", not "Just use Ensorcel". presumably they would craft some custom magic with a longer term duration at the least.

It may be possible in theory to take control of a Black Steel Centipeid, but you would have to find a way to break the Yama kings control first, and given that that's devine level power controling them, you'd need to also have godlike power to even make the attempt.

Assuming the Yama Kings have chi magic, we might assume they constantly are casting this very spell on the Centipedes.

This begs the question of what happens when someone casts a control spell on something already subject to a control spell. I don't know if Palladium has rules on that.

Now that you mention it...I don't either.

[Tor]

They may be infernals only insofar as as zeus can be considered human.

Why's that? We should keep in mind that a Yama King's been overthrown by a lowly Overlord before. I expect they're at most, stronger than Overlords as Overlords are to normal Infernals (or perhaps just to Horned Ushers).

Haven't seen their stats in the Rifts Chinas though (guess that took place of the promised MC sourcebook) but I imagine the Rifts versions of infernals are very different from the MC versions, even if MC is part of the BtS setting and thus Rift's canonical past (MC has Victor Lazlo in it).

I'm not saying that in the sense they are immune to magic, rather there's no spell "Summon and control deity" or "control/enslave deity".

Are they referred to as deities in MC? Would being a deity make one any less an Infernal?

Put it another way: it's made quite clear that a demon summoning circle can't summon the demon lords, so why should summon infernal summon infernal lords? it's not spelled out as explicitly but there's such a thing as logic and pattern recognition.

It's not implied that the Kings are that much stronger than other Infernals than the Lords are to other deevils/demons. At least 1 King's been overthrown by a lesser Infernal. Has this ever happened in the history of Dyval/Hades? At most there only seems to be a vague reference to potentially new Lords being created in the midst of the war if they manage to get enough worshippers without being squashed.

Ensorcel is pretty expensive for its duration. I guess it'd be worth it for something as powerful as the Centipedes and if anyone had the PPE from people dying all the time, it'd be the Yama Kings...It does beg the question about whether or not Ensorcel would protect a minion from something that lacks a savings throw though. I'll need to rerear FoM again.

I said "Something like Ensorcel", not "Just use Ensorcel". presumably they would craft some custom magic with a longer term duration at the least.

Yeah the extended Duration's not really the main problem, I'm sure they'd be capable of getting such a variant. Although there's apparently only 1 of the Centipedes active right now, so maybe only that one would be Ensorcel'd and the others would be locked up?

Summoning a Centipede would be as dangerous as summoning an Infernal or a Leopard. I'd rank these as the 'greater' scale Chinese Demons as they're the only ones who can enter Earth from Hell under their own power. The other weaker stupider demons who can be summoned only have the power to return to Hell, not to come to Earth, so they're not dangerous as long as you tell them to return in time.

Now that you mention it...I don't either.

I wonder if we could do some variant on a battle of wills that summones have except it's between the MEs of the two mages, and somehow factor in spell strength...

[Nekira Sudacne]

Your calling for a lot of information that's going to require some work digging through the library to cite references, but to breifly touch of some points in no partciular order: yes, there are cases of demon lords being overthrown and someone new becoming demon lords in their place, Rifts china does make it clear that the yama kings are deities, in fact, one of them managed to survive his assassination by trying instead of manifesting a physical form he would manifest as the idea of communism itself--and it mostly worked. So it's pretty clear that the position of Yama King comes with deific status. and when your getting into stuff like "Is a yama king less an infernal for being a god", well, now your getting into stuff that requires looking beyond the source material and would probablly be best served by looking up the actual mythology that was used when Eric was writing the China books.

[Tor]

Hm well, being deities in Rifts China doesn't mean they are in N&SS though Even putting them in the same continuity (which can be done) there's centuries separating the eras, and a non-deity can become a deity during such a span of time (happened to Herakles and She Who Walks The Circle).

I'm only looking at the MC stats for the chi magic, if this spell exists in one of the RC books it might even be worded differently and include exceptions for Yamas/Caterpillars.

[Nightmask]

Hm well, being deities in Rifts China doesn't mean they are in N&SS though Even putting them in the same continuity (which can be done) there's centuries separating the eras, and a non-deity can become a deity during such a span of time (happened to Herakles and She Who Walks The Circle).

I'm only looking at the MC stats for the chi magic, if this spell exists in one of the RC books it might even be worded differently and include exceptions for Yamas/Caterpillars.

Well you have to take into account that the writers especially back when these books came out couldn't imagine a player thinking it could take control over a god just by casting a piddly mortal spell to explicitly note 'no you can't go commanding Yama Kings or Black Steel Centipedes with these spells'.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Hm well, being deities in Rifts China doesn't mean they are in N&SS though Even putting them in the same continuity (which can be done) there's centuries separating the eras, and a non-deity can become a deity during such a span of time (happened to Herakles and She Who Walks The Circle).

I'm only looking at the MC stats for the chi magic, if this spell exists in one of the RC books it might even be worded differently and include exceptions for Yamas/Caterpillars.

You have to realize your nitpicking to an absurd degree here. "Well, this one book says they're gods, but this other book dosn't explictly say so, so maybe as of this book they arn't.

Honestly, if that's your argument, I'm finished here. My point is made, you seem to be arguing for it's own sake. If not, please explain exactly what point you are trying to convince me of.

It's true that Mystic China never explicitly calls them gods, but if they mentioned Odin, I wouldn't need it to explictly call him a god even if I didn't have Pantheons of the Megaverse to tell me.

[Tor]

you have to take into account that the writers especially back when these books came out couldn't imagine a player thinking it could take control over a god just by casting a piddly mortal spell to explicitly note 'no you can't go commanding Yama Kings or Black Steel Centipedes with these spells'.

MC never specified the Yama Kings as gods. It's implied deity status about the Jade Emperor (Enlightened Immortals are mentioned as turning down the position of a deity if they reject the Alabaster Elephant) but nowhere in MC do I recall the Yama Kings being labelled gods/deities.

Also I think that spell may except the Yama Kings. It states "only demon lords may resist this magic". I'm not sure if that means demon lords get a saving throw (since all others do not even get a savings throw) or if it just means they're always immune regardless.

Presumably 'demon lords' would include Yama Kings, and probably also Demon Overlords. I don't think it would include Horned Ushers or any other lower-ranking infernals, or the Leopards though. I'm also pretty sure that Black Steel Centipedes aren't classed as Demon Lords, so they should be affected.

You have to realize your nitpicking to an absurd degree here. "Well, this one book says they're gods, but this other book dosn't explictly say so, so maybe as of this book they arn't. Honestly, if that's your argument, I'm finished here.

I'm arguing that they're different NPCs, or if they're somehow the same character, they're that character are different stages in their lives.

Being a god doesn't give people special immunity to magic unless the spell explicitly says (as some do, such as House of Glass in FoM) that it doesn't affect gods. If I have a spell that hurts dragons, for example, it's going to hurt a dragon god.

What would except the Yama Kings from being affected isn't being a god (because even if they are, they are also Infernals, so the spell targets them) but rather if they are considered 'demon lords' (which makes sense, as a 'demon over lord' is presumably a demon lord, and the kings command 20 of those each, basically making them mega-overlords.)

My point is made, you seem to be arguing for it's own sake. If not, please explain exactly what point you are trying to convince me of.

People shouldn't be obligated to win arguments to convince people to not assume impure motives for their arguing

It's true that Mystic China never explicitly calls them gods, but if they mentioned Odin, I wouldn't need it to explictly call him a god even if I didn't have Pantheons of the Megaverse to tell me.

Why not? Pantheons has a bunch of non-god Odins too. NPCs have gone from being mere Godlings in PRPG to full gods in D&G. I think Aco's Juggernaught went from being Miscreant to Unprincipled. We can treat that as either a character transformation or different characters who share the same name.

Palladium already has at least 2 kind of Necrophim, 2 Hels, 2 Mephistos, having a couple sets of Yama Kings in two settings, one deific and the other a bit weaker, doesn't really hurt anything.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Except at this point your not really debating, your re-stating your positions and they arn't having any more impact than the first time. If those arguments are all you got, color me throughly unconvinced. Rifts China says they're deities. Unless you can somehow prove that Mystic China Yama Kings are utterly different beings and somehow just ordinary infernals, then your argument has no weight and convinces no one.

Your right, arguments arn't about winning or losing, but they are about accomplishing something, otherwise they're not worth my time.

[Tor]

I have proven they're utterly different beings. The N&SS world and Rifts Earth are different settings. They take place at different times. They can't be the same characters any more than the Victor Lazlo walking around NGR/Africa is the same Lazlo founding the society.

Could they be different chronological versions of the character in the same continuity? Yup. But since coming to Rifts, Victor has gotten some cool new gear, learned a lot of new things, etc.

Pharaoh Rama-set is another good example. He wasn't an evil necromancer prior to the Coming of the Rifts. During the centuries in between, he gained new abilities, got more twisted, ruled an empire, turned MDC, etc.

My argument is simply that someone being a deity in Rifts Earth doesn't mean they were necessarily deities hundreds of years ago when N&SS takes place. Or that the Yama Kings of one dimension are the Yama Kings of another dimension (we have multiple Hades and multiple Dyvals, we can have multiple ChinaHells)

I never claimed that Yama Kings are ordinary infernals, just that they are STILL Infernals (just as Styphon is STILL a dragon). I'm disputing that deific status in rifts means eternal deific status in all prior settings.

Mystic China is a book which can even cover ancient campaigns, including the time period before the Yama Kings ascended, especially the time period before the right hand man of the top guy moved up in rank.

Yama Kings and and Demon Overlords are immune to the Control Infernal spell, that much I'll stand by. Not because of being deities or not because they're not infernals, but because the spells says demon lords resist it.

Sharing a name doesn't mean 2 characters are the same so the burden's sorta on you to prove that the Rifts Yama Kings are the same ones referred to in N&SS. =/ The stats are different enough between their versions of MC OCCs (they don't even have chi do they?) so if Rifts makes chi into ISP/PPE, maybe it makes mere mega-overlords into deities.

[Nekira Sudacne]

then I suppose we simply have to agree to disagree. there's no point in continuing sinse what you accept as plain fact I cannot and vice versa.

[Tor]

Actually it's not a plain fact to me, I think it could be either-or. Nothing in MC saying the Kings ain't deities, just nothing saying they are. My view's that it's an ambiguous GM decision but definitely by the time Rifts happened they were deities.

But that's getting off-topic: the spell affects Centipedes