Shark_Force wrote:nightbane biology is frequently completely contrary to what you would expect. they frequently don't reproduce, they frequently don't even have biology as we would recognize it
Well, their facades have basically normal biologies. They decompose normally if they die in that form compared to vanishing into black mist in Morphus.
Shark_Force wrote:their transformations and natural abilities frequently violate laws of conservation of energy and mass.
a creature of magic, on the other hand, is more like a living creature that follows fairly standard rules for living creatures, but has some supernatural (generally magic) assistance. dragons, for example, shouldn't be able to fly, probably shouldn't be able to have the breath weapons they do in most cases, and of course, have a natural ability to cast spells. but they otherwise follow most of the rules you'd expect for an ordinary creature. their bodies function in familiar ways; you'll find fairly standard organs and such inside them, they have fairly ordinary biological requirements
This overlooks dragons' metamorphosis abilities which clearly also violate that whole conservation of mass spiel.
Mercdog wrote:Aren't Latent nightbane simply nightbane that haven't experienced their first change yet? IIRC, your either born a nightbane or your not. You don't start human and then become a nightbane. But then, I don't have all the NB books, so I may be missing something.
It's never specified what latent nightbane are. Based on the term 'latent' it's a safe assumption that this means those who haven't had a Becoming yet.
The book notes that if a NB hasn't had a Becoming by the time they're 24, they may never have one. Probably because puberty is when it is first possible to happen, and the body/mind is already changing, that's when the Becoming is most likely to be triggered (doesn't explicitly forbid older adults from having one like it does prepubescents though)
Nightmask wrote:once you aren't latent even if you had active tattoos prior to that they're disabled by the transformation as your 'true self' is revealed. Modifications to the facade though wouldn't necessarily be impossible, as I do remember a mention of things like cybernetics being possible, they simply magically disappear and return as you shift back and forth.
I don't think the tattoos would work even for the facades (if we still call them facades before a Morphus shows up) of latent banes. I think they could get them, but just couldn't activate them.
This wouldn't be that odd. Some people just have really low PPE and can't activate tattoos.
cornholioprime wrote:by the description of the Nightbane, that there really isn't any such thing as a "latent Nightbane" You're either a Nightbane (and IICR nobody, including the Nightbane themselves, knows the 'science' behind who is or isn't except that most/all of them just happen to be orphans), or you're not. Just like you can't be a "latent" Cosmo-Knight.
I dunno, aren't Fallen Knights arguably latent Cosmo-Knights? Keeping a little left-over, etc.
There are latent banes though, the term has been used sporadically (maybe only 2 times, not sure) in the books. It isn't clarified though, so it probably just means pre-Becoming Banes.
Also I think it's pretty clear that all of the banes are either from orphanages or get adopted from orphanages, so presumably they just pop into the world somewhere as babies/children and get found and people assume they were abandoned.
You'd figure the Nightlords might figure this out and look into people with histories like this...
cornholioprime wrote:There IS such a thing as a "latent Nightbane,"
I always forget where they're mentioned other than Wampyrs though, I remember it was somewhere else but never where...
Panomas wrote:Even latent Nightbane cannot get magic tattoos (or more precisely, can have tattoos imprinted on them but they will not work). This will reveal the fact that they are not truly human.
Oh okay, but anyone know any mentions sides these two of latents?
crystaleye1950 wrote:A nightbane only comes into being when a latent nightbane experiences his first change. Othewise he is just a normal mortal human/elf/true atlantean.
This is Dark Conversions nonsense. Which I guess applies if this is a discussion the Rifts forums, but a lot of us are stuck in the SDC 'Nightbane RPG' mindset I guess.
crystaleye1950 wrote:Are they humans gifted with
a shadowy, alien shape and superhuman powers, or are they
alien beings masquerading as humans? Or are they something
else? Many of the Nightbane who have decided the second
choice is true have turned their backs on humankind. Those who
chose the first theory try to help their fellow humans by using
their powers to heal and protect.
So if nightbanes aren't humans, then why would the book described nightbanes as helping their "fellow" humans?
Their facade is human.
Just like an elf nightbane would want to help his "fellow elves".
That phrasing's I think implied in the context of "those who choose the theory". As in how they perceive it.
Akashic Soldier wrote:in Rifts Nightbane is an R.C.C. (not an O.C.C.) which means it is a racial character class, which means that they are no more human than Orcs, Ganka or Floopers. They are something else. No magic tattoos.
NB are an RCC in Nightbane as well, I think. Which actually means more there because Nightbane actually uses PCCs for psychics, whereas in Rifts, RCC is used for psychics as well as races, so calling NB an RCC in Rifts doesn't actually mean they aren't human (as Mind Melters and Bursters are also RCCs).
crystaleye1950 wrote:Between the shadows pg 143 Nightbanes cannot accept bionics in either Morphus or Facade form. Characters whose Facades have lost limbs can have them replaced with cybernetic prosthetics or bio-systems; these prosthetics disappear when the Morphus form is assumed. All other cybernetic implants and bionics are expelled out of the body of the Facade in a matter of 2D6 hours (the Morphus will expel them in 2D4 melee rounds!).
Judging by the above section of words, it very clearly states that latent nightbanes prior to their first change can accept cybernetics, bionics and all manner of mechanical transplants
Actually it's not clear about how this affects latent nightbane at all. The abilities that NB have in human form may apply only after their first Becoming (having shifted into a Morphus) or they may apply their entire 'normal human' life prior to becoming. This much isn't clear and we may have to read the wording of the RCC. Will take a look.
crystaleye1950 wrote:and most of these cybernetics and bionics will be ejected out of the body upon first change. In the matter of cybernetic prosthetics and bio-systems, they are even retained within the facade of the nightbane.
Retained for 2D6 hours, you mean? That's the issue: does a prepubescent latent nightbane reject cybernetics in under a day too, or only after having a Becoming?
I think a major source of confusion here is that the section being quoted contradicts itself. It starts off by saying "cannot accept bionics in either form" and then says "the forms reject bionics in hours/melees". If the "cannot accept" refers to the rejection, then how is it that it doesn't apply equally to bio-systems, which are worded equally with cybernetic prosthetics?
crystaleye1950 wrote:This very clearly shows that if cybernetics and bionics, which are even much more invasive and unnatural than bio-wizardry and gene-tech modifications, can be accepted within a latent nightbane's body, then by all accords, gene-tech and bio-wizardry modifications and implants can very well be accepted in a latent nightbane's body as well.
Here's a problem: you're making the assumption that these are more invasive and unnatural.
Bio-wizardry (note: wizardry) involves magical transmutations, which banes are immune to.
As for gene-tech, while that doesn't include magic, one could argue that altering one's DNA is potentially a larger change than jamming a bit of machinery under the skin, or connecting the nerves to a fake hand.
crystaleye1950 wrote:Unless you are gonna argue that one's body can accept bionic and cybernetics yet the same body can't accept gene-tech and bio-wizardry modifications and implants.'
I'd argue that is the case in some situations, yes. Bio-wizardry involves magic, so people immune to magical transformations can't geti t.
crystaleye1950 wrote:until there is evidence in FAQs or Canon which proves otherwise, I will rule that Latent Nightbanes can receive bio-wizardry or gene-tech modifications.
Bio-wizardry is a magical transformation. Sorry, but it can't happen to a NB any more than it can to a True Atlantean. Gene-tech is a possibility I guess, will have to read further.
Although this does beg the question: does the nightbane immunity to magical transformation apply only in Morphus? If it applies to Facade, is that only post-1st-Becoming, or even to the 'facade' of latent (Becoming-Virgin) Nightbanes?
crystaleye1950 wrote:Tor wrote:crystaleye1950 wrote:It doesn't state that LATENT nightbanes cannot receive bio-wizardry or gene-tech mods!
Latent Nightbane are still Nightbane, just as Latent Psychics are still psychics.
It's never really been clarified what latent nightbane are, we can only assume that they're younger ones who haven't had their first Becoming. Theories about them being potential Wampyres aside...
That is your definition not mine. The books especially Dark Conversion clearly states that latent nightbanes are human and not nightbanes until their first transformation.
You can use your own assumptions and your own definitions in your own campaign but I will be using my own definitions and my own assumptions in my campaign.
Please tell me where in Dark Conversions it states "latent Nightbane are not Nightbane" or something to that effect. Is the 'latent' adjective used in DC?
Palladium hasn't clearly spelled out what 'latent' means in this context. I would use the term "Pre-Becoming" or "UnBecame" or something like that to refer to Banes who haven't had their first Becoming yet. It's my assumption that this is what Latent means, but I'm not sure, so we need to clarify that Latent could potentially mean something else, I guess. Though what, I wouldn't know.
cornholioprime wrote:While the entry in Dark Conversions is a later book, and therefore should be the most 'official' entry.....
Later books aren't necessarily more official, new books are optional new settings.
The original PFRPG hand to hand tables, gods, etc. don't cease to exist or become unofficial, after all. The DC banes are 'New Nightbane'. Just like the new upgraded shifters and ley line walkers are new '2nd edition' OCCs.
cornholioprime wrote:NO Nightbane has a Doppelganger version of himself. And the Dark Conversions Author further makes known his ignorance of the Nightbane module by pointing out on page 122 of the same Book the same information, thereby directly agreeing with the Nightbane Books and refuting himself based on what he wrote on page 119.
LOL hold on a sec... DC has banes having doppelgangers now? Can I see a quote on this? Sounds hilarious...
Although maybe they mean Nightbane Sorcerers who get access to the spell of legend 'Create Doppelganger'?
cornholioprime wrote:As such, while the latest Palladium publication should logically and normally be considered the most official reading on any given issue, in this case the information provided in Dark Conversions, at least in this regard, should probably be of secondary importance to the information provided in the Nightbane Book(s).
I would agree on the Nightbane boards, but we ARE on the Rifts boards so =/
After all, we should expect that the Modeus/Mictla in CB1 are more applicable to Rifts games than the ones in D&G, and the Egyptian gods in Rifts Africa are more applicable to Rifts than the ones in D&G, right?
Then again, it does seem a shame not to give them the deific powers if FoM's 'The Three' get a handful.
Panomas wrote:crystaleye1950 wrote:Where does it state that bio-wizardry or gene-tech modifications to a latent nightbane do not have any effect after the first transformation?
“Furthermore magical enhancements like bio-wizardry, tattoo magic Nazca runes, and transformation rituals or circles, have NO effect on either the Façade or Morphus of the character."
To be fair, this doesn't outrule purely scientific transformations like GeneSplicer and GeneTech I guess.
crystaleye1950 wrote:You are reading that wrong.
A Nightbane cannot accept Bionics ever it is irrelevant if it is before or after their first change, their Facade expels them within 2D6 hours, just as you quoted.
Cybernetics and Bio-Systems were deemed okay purely as a compassionate move to the player that loses a limb, considering they already ruled against Bio-Wizardry, they wanted to give them a means of not being permanently maimed if the player chose so.
Cybernetics and Bio-Systems remain with the Facade forever, unless they are somehow lost or destroyed. Turning into the Morphus makes them disappear, much the same as it does to the character's clothing and armor. When they turn back to the Facade, that clothing, armor and Cybernetics are right back where they belong.
I can see the root of confusion here. Let's take a look at the quote you posted:
Between the shadows pg 143 wrote:Nightbanes cannot accept bionics in either Morphus or Facade form. Characters whose Facades have lost limbs can have them replaced with cybernetic prosthetics or bio-systems; these prosthetics disappear when the Morphus form is assumed. All other cybernetic implants and bionics are expelled out of the body of the Facade in a matter of 2D6 hours (the Morphus will expel them in 2D4 melee rounds!).
Now, let's break that into distinct numbered points:
1. Nightbanes cannot accept bionics in either Morphus or Facade form
2. Characters whose Facades have lost limbs can have them replaced with cybernetic prosthetics
3. Characters whose Facades have lost limbs can have them replaced with bio-systems
4. Prosthetics disappear when the Morphus form is assumed.
5. Other cybernetic implants are expelled out of the body of the Facade in a matter of 2D6 hours (Morphus: 2d4 melees)
6. Bionics are expelled out of the body of the Facade in a matter of 2D6 hours (Morphus: 2d4 melees)
The root of confusion is the way things are used interchangeably at first, discussed as equal, and then described distinctively, non-interchangeably.
To reword the sentence: "Characters' Facades' lost limbs can be replaced with bio-systems OR cybernetic prosthetics." This doesn't at all change the meaning.
To clarify the meaning: "bio-systems" are a special kind of cybernetics. They are prosthetic cybernetics which replace lost limbs. They are connected directly to the nervous system. They are an exceptional kind of cybernetic implant which is not expelled. All other forms of cybernetics (including bionics) are expelled, and done so more rapidly in Morphus form.
Some of the confusion here though is: if cybernetics just "vanish": how is it that the Morphus expels them?
TBH it's never been made clear to me the distinction between bioSystems and bioNics, because both of them can be used to replace lost limbs. I thought biosystems were just cybernetics that were weak and looked very humanlike whereas bionics were cybernetics that were strong and looked very mechanical, but both are artificial, and both are wired into the nervous system, so I have no clue why one would disrupt the biology more than the other.
It's not just Nightbane with this strangeness, bionics (more than cybernetic implants) disrupt super-abilities in HU more too. No idea why. Bio-systems should basically count as 'bionics lite'. Bio-systems replace entire body parts, cybernetic implants (like a clock calender) are just implanted chips.
I get if NB healing factor expels tiny chips, but doesn't expel a bio-system connected to the nerves (part of the vital energy) but if being connected to the nerves keeps bio-systems intact, it begs the question why Bionics get expelled.
The rules are clear on this: bionics and cybernetic implants get ejected, bio-systems vanish... but it doesn't explain WHY very well, and I'd like to get a working hypothesis on this. Doing so may give us an interesting perspective on the Becoming and what it does.
Though maybe we won't get a clear answer: that some Bane's clothes vanish and reappear, and other Bane's clothes tear, leave the Becoming as indistinct a process as Morphus forms are. Maybe there is no answer.
Or just an ordinary human. It's one or the other-
