Physical training; can they pass stat cap?

[Dobergirl]

I have to ask. Physical Training is about people pushing themselves past normal limits, right? However, Heroes state that SPD 30 is max for normal humans usually. Would physical training with speed focus be able to pass the 30 SPD cap though?

[Stone Gargoyle]

Unless officially noted someplace in the category description, 30 is the max. I don't have my book handy, so I am unaware if Physical Training makes an exception to the rule.

[Nightmask]

Physical Training heroes aren't normal humans, I don't see where that rule capping stats for normal humans applies to them. They already have other superhuman stats not available to normal humans to justify them not being subject to that rule.

[Damian Magecraft]

outside of the chart where does it state that there is a stat cap?

[Necrite]

HU2, pp 15-16:

Attributes beyond 30
ME, IQ, MA, and PB are normally maxed out at 30 for mortals. Bonuses do not increase should the character have a number higher than thirty; the only exception might be a god and aliens.
PS: Some characters will acquire a PB attribute beyond the limits of the bonus chart. Occasionally,even normal, albeit exceptional, humans can also exceed a PS of 30. In these cases, the damage bonus for a PS beyond 30 continues to accumulate at a rate of +1 per each additional point.
PP: The bonuses to strike, parry, and dodge stop at 30. But for every four PP points beyond 30, the character gets a bonus on his initiative roll.
PE: The bonus to save vs poison and magic stops at 30, but the percentage to save vs coma continues at an increment of one point per each additional point beyond 30%.
Spd: Most ordinary humans never exceed 30, however, superhumans, cyborgs, aliens and others may acheive mind boggling running speeds.

While I recall seeing a cap of 30 elsewhere, nothing in HU indicates that a cap exists here. While bonuses don't accumulate for over 30 values in ME, IQ, MA and PB, they do for other stats, and nothing implies that the stats are capped - just that it's pointless to go higher (except maybe as a buffer againts stat loss).
Not only does it say stats can go over 30, at the very least it confirms that normal non-supers can exceed 30 in PS.

I would say that any character that can exceed 30 off base rolls, Skills, and bonuses from Power Category should be allowed that total.

In specific response to the OP: The book says MOST ordinary humans will not exceed 30. Which means some do. Even if Physical Training characters are ordinary, it's still OK, as long as more than 50% of the world's population remains at or below Spd 30.

One last edit:
Assuming average rolls on all dice, 3d6 Spd gives 10.5
Then a Physical Training character adds six physical skills. Assuming that Athletics and Running are picked, that adds another 3.5 and 10, respectively.
Then a focus on Agility and Speed gives a 3d6+10 bonus, so that's another 20.5.
Right there, you've got 44.5 Spd. Your minimum value would be 21, and that's assuming all ones. If you rolled max on every die, including the two bonus dice, you'd have 70.
With a range like that, I can't imagine that a cap of 30 was intended for this power category.

[Dobergirl]

HU2, pp 15-16:

Attributes beyond 30
ME, IQ, MA, and PB are normally maxed out at 30 for mortals. Bonuses do not increase should the character have a number higher than thirty; the only exception might be a god and aliens.
PS: Some characters will acquire a PB attribute beyond the limits of the bonus chart. Occasionally,even normal, albeit exceptional, humans can also exceed a PS of 30. In these cases, the damage bonus for a PS beyond 30 continues to accumulate at a rate of +1 per each additional point.
PP: The bonuses to strike, parry, and dodge stop at 30. But for every four PP points beyond 30, the character gets a bonus on his initiative roll.
PE: The bonus to save vs poison and magic stops at 30, but the percentage to save vs coma continues at an increment of one point per each additional point beyond 30%.
Spd: Most ordinary humans never exceed 30, however, superhumans, cyborgs, aliens and others may acheive mind boggling running speeds.

While I recall seeing a cap of 30 elsewhere, nothing in HU indicates that a cap exists here. While bonuses don't accumulate for over 30 values in ME, IQ, MA and PB, they do for other stats, and nothing implies that the stats are capped - just that it's pointless to go higher (except maybe as a buffer againts stat loss).
Not only does it say stats can go over 30, at the very least it confirms that normal non-supers can exceed 30 in PS.

I would say that any character that can exceed 30 off base rolls, Skills, and bonuses from Power Category should be allowed that total.

In specific response to the OP: The book says MOST ordinary humans will not exceed 30. Which means some do. Even if Physical Training characters are ordinary, it's still OK, as long as more than 50% of the world's population remains at or below Spd 30.

One last edit:
Assuming average rolls on all dice, 3d6 Spd gives 10.5
Then a Physical Training character adds six physical skills. Assuming that Athletics and Running are picked, that adds another 3.5 and 10, respectively.
Then a focus on Agility and Speed gives a 3d6+10 bonus, so that's another 20.5.
Right there, you've got 44.5 Spd. Your minimum value would be 21, and that's assuming all ones. If you rolled max on every die, including the two bonus dice, you'd have 70.
With a range like that, I can't imagine that a cap of 30 was intended for this power category.

Exactly my point Necrite, I got 17+5, then I had running too so that increased speed already to 30.

[NMI]

Physical trainers are "superhuman". They sure as heck are not "normal human".

This part here answers the topic starters original question:

Spd: Most ordinary humans never exceed 30, however, superhumans, cyborgs, aliens and others may acheive mind boggling running speeds.

[Tor]

I think even normal humans should be able to have attributes past 30. "Most never exceed" doesn't mean "people can not exceed".

We could accurately say that "most humans never exceed IQ 11" and this would be statistically correct (doubting there are enough Super Sleuths or victims of the Gene Splicers in the world to falsify that)

[AlanGunhouse]

I think I saw somewhere that there is a stat cap for normal humans,in HU, but it is higher than 30. I could be mistaken though.

That said, a Physical Training Character gets the full super power Extraordinary (or even Superhuman) Physical Strength, complete with the stat bonuses. You can bet they are going to be able to have a PS higher than human limits.

[Ranger]

Yes they can. At least for the physical abilities. Otherwise they are kind of wimpy.

[Dobergirl]

Okay thank you everyone, I have come to realize that yes, Physical Training should be able to pass the speed as they're not ordinary. I suppose by normal humans it would mean special training and hardware and such and the stat caps would make sense there, (why would hardware or super sleuth need super speedy running anyway?) but it'd probably depend on their style what power could pass what cap. Like, would it be possible for Natural Genius to get IQ more than 30, especially if rolled as a campaign villain?

[Stone Gargoyle]

A Natural Genius would surpass the stat cap for IQ, I would think.

[Damian Magecraft]

I ask again where in the books does it give a hard cap to stats?

[Dobergirl]

I ask again where in the books does it give a hard cap to stats?

On HU2 it's on the page 15, before the attribute bonus charts "Attributes beyond 30" tells caps for each stat and when it's relevant or not to pass them.

[Damian Magecraft]

I ask again where in the books does it give a hard cap to stats?

On HU2 it's on the page 15, before the attribute bonus charts "Attributes beyond 30" tells caps for each stat and when it's relevant or not to pass them.

With the exception of PP (and that; I think; is based on the concept that its not possible to generate a number higher than 50 [at least with data available at the time of the books printing]) there is no hard limit instituted. All the others are "soft" limits (limits that can be exceeded but do require certain parameters to be met first).

[Tor]

On HU2 it's on the page 15, before the attribute bonus charts "Attributes beyond 30" tells caps for each stat and when it's relevant or not to pass them.

Doesn't HU2 still have that whole 'compatible with TMNT' statement? TMNT has extended attribute tables

[Dobergirl]

On HU2 it's on the page 15, before the attribute bonus charts "Attributes beyond 30" tells caps for each stat and when it's relevant or not to pass them.

Doesn't HU2 still have that whole 'compatible with TMNT' statement? TMNT has extended attribute tables

TMNT has totally different rules in terms of what stats do too (SPD gives dodge bonuses for instance, ME doesn't save against insanity, etc.) and shouldn't probably be used in Heroes context unless you replace MANY things with TMNT stuff. (And I'd highly recommend against that)

[Nightmask]

On HU2 it's on the page 15, before the attribute bonus charts "Attributes beyond 30" tells caps for each stat and when it's relevant or not to pass them.

Doesn't HU2 still have that whole 'compatible with TMNT' statement? TMNT has extended attribute tables

TMNT has totally different rules in terms of what stats do too (SPD gives dodge bonuses for instance, ME doesn't save against insanity, etc.) and shouldn't probably be used in Heroes context unless you replace MANY things with TMNT stuff. (And I'd highly recommend against that)

I seem to remember that those dodge bonuses quickly exceeded the dodge bonuses of the super-powers that actually gave dodge bonuses as well. Not much reason for Extraordinary Speed if you're looking for dodge bonuses when you could pump up your Speed stat and have better.

[Dobergirl]

On HU2 it's on the page 15, before the attribute bonus charts "Attributes beyond 30" tells caps for each stat and when it's relevant or not to pass them.

Doesn't HU2 still have that whole 'compatible with TMNT' statement? TMNT has extended attribute tables

TMNT has totally different rules in terms of what stats do too (SPD gives dodge bonuses for instance, ME doesn't save against insanity, etc.) and shouldn't probably be used in Heroes context unless you replace MANY things with TMNT stuff. (And I'd highly recommend against that)

I seem to remember that those dodge bonuses quickly exceeded the dodge bonuses of the super-powers that actually gave dodge bonuses as well. Not much reason for Extraordinary Speed if you're looking for dodge bonuses when you could pump up your Speed stat and have better.

Yes, if going by TMNT attributes, Dobergirl would have 11+ dodge already at level 1 and without any super powers of dodging or something.

[Nightmask]

On HU2 it's on the page 15, before the attribute bonus charts "Attributes beyond 30" tells caps for each stat and when it's relevant or not to pass them.

Doesn't HU2 still have that whole 'compatible with TMNT' statement? TMNT has extended attribute tables

TMNT has totally different rules in terms of what stats do too (SPD gives dodge bonuses for instance, ME doesn't save against insanity, etc.) and shouldn't probably be used in Heroes context unless you replace MANY things with TMNT stuff. (And I'd highly recommend against that)

I seem to remember that those dodge bonuses quickly exceeded the dodge bonuses of the super-powers that actually gave dodge bonuses as well. Not much reason for Extraordinary Speed if you're looking for dodge bonuses when you could pump up your Speed stat and have better.

Yes, if going by TMNT attributes, Dobergirl would have 11+ dodge already at level 1 and without any super powers of dodging or something.

Which is probably why that never made it into the other settings. Someone willing to do a lot of dodging using the TMNT rules and a high speed stat would be almost impossible to hit.

[eliakon]

On HU2 it's on the page 15, before the attribute bonus charts "Attributes beyond 30" tells caps for each stat and when it's relevant or not to pass them.

Doesn't HU2 still have that whole 'compatible with TMNT' statement? TMNT has extended attribute tables

Compatible doesnt mean uses the same rules though. Palladium Fantasy is 'compatible' with Rifts.....but they have different magic systems....

[Slight001]

While I don't have HU with me at the moment I can only recall one instance of a 30 cap on attributes and that is the exploding dice rule but I don't know if that rule applies to HU.

[Damian Magecraft]

While I don't have HU with me at the moment I can only recall one instance of a 30 cap on attributes and that is the exploding dice rule but I don't know if that rule applies to HU.

it does.
HU2 pg 15

[eliakon]

PF's 2nd Ed magic system is the same as Rifts. You spend PPE and your spell goes off. MDC spells convert to SDC 1 for 1, and you use the dominant game description for them (ie Fire Bolt works as per the Palladium Fantasy description when you play PF, or as per the Rifts description when you play Rifts).

Except that PF uses 'slow casting' and Rifts uses 'fast casting'......

[Damian Magecraft]

PF's 2nd Ed magic system is the same as Rifts. You spend PPE and your spell goes off. MDC spells convert to SDC 1 for 1, and you use the dominant game description for them (ie Fire Bolt works as per the Palladium Fantasy description when you play PF, or as per the Rifts description when you play Rifts).

Except that PF uses 'slow casting' and Rifts uses 'fast casting'......

The RUE casting rules are offered up as official "optional" rules in MoM.

[eliakon]

PF's 2nd Ed magic system is the same as Rifts. You spend PPE and your spell goes off. MDC spells convert to SDC 1 for 1, and you use the dominant game description for them (ie Fire Bolt works as per the Palladium Fantasy description when you play PF, or as per the Rifts description when you play Rifts).

Except that PF uses 'slow casting' and Rifts uses 'fast casting'......

The RUE casting rules are offered up as official "optional" rules in MoM.

Yes, but that still points out that the systems are CLOSE not EXACT. Eg each line has its own unique changes to fit the game as written.....