What is supernatural magic transformation/nightbane tattoo?

[Tor]

Presumably anything that happens to them (except for cybernetics and other implants which get 'healed out' once they get a tougher Facade) as Latents stays fixed though.

That’s totally opposite of what the text I quoted says; I’m curious as to where you get this reasoning, do you have a canon source. This was the request of the question.

Cybernetics are the only thing spoken of that's actually eliminated. No other changes are mentioned as being reversed. It's sorta up to you to point out that becoming Awakened will revert changes done to the Latent form.

Additionally there is nothing that I know of written as to the importance of when the Nightbane gets a mod; because they absolutely can’t get them once they’ve changed into a Nightbane.

Being unable to get new transformations as a Bane means you can't get more. It doesn't mean transformations done prior to getting 'Immune to Transformation' are removed.

So all mods will be before the change. And all mods will be expelled after, which is the relevance of this sentence. And squashes any thinking that a Nightbane may get the benefit of a mod-if by happenchance they are available before the change. The store (that’s me) is open for any debate on this to the contrary-

The only mods that mention being expelled are cybernetics/bionics. Those are foreign non-flesh objects connected to the body.

Where does it say things like expelling Bio-wizardry implants or reversing Transmutations? If it doesn't mentioned expelling those, there's no reason to think it'd occur.

Agree--

The paraphrasing was done incorrectly, it doesn't represent what the text says accurately.

We should avoid paraphrasing when possible, and when we do, just rearrange words, not substitute new ones. It says Facade/Morphus, not Latent/Awakened, for example, which mean different things.

In that same paragraph, it also says "Latent."

The reason why I deliberately paraphrased the passage in the Nightbane World Book, was because I wanted to impart to the readers, here, the way that I interpreted that paragraph.

The mention of Latent in that section was in regard to magical tattoos though, not the other issues.

There are two ways you could be looking at the scenario:
Latent Nightbane are Nightbane: In that case, it doesn't matter if they are latent or not. The book clearly states without any wiggle room that Nightbane cannot receive Bio-Wizard Augmentation.

That seems like a reference to the 'immune to transformation' ability though. Are you saying that Nightbane have a special Immunity to Bio-Wizardry independent of their ITT ability which also applies while Latent prior to getting the rest of the abilities?

Latent Nightbane aren't Nightbane: It isn't really canon but if you interpret Latent Nightbane as a normal human that will later be changed (like a Cosmo Knight) then they would be able to receive Bio-Wizard modifications. However, as the book has clearly stated without any wiggle room that Nightbanes with Bio-Wizard Augmentation simply cannot exist, due to that character's modifications s/he will never be a Nightbane.

It literally said 'Nightbane with Bio-wizardry cannot exist'? Hm, I better reread BetweenShadows.

Finally, some posters that are using canon to support thier arguments- -to save the day....

That's rude and wrong. Posters on BOTH "sides" of the argument have been using canon to support their arguments. We're in the process of co-operatively following breadcrumbs and located related statements.

Nightbane, even Latent Nightbane, were never intended to truly be human. Instead they were some sort of other that somehow came about in the shape of a human until such time that a traumatic event would trigger a Becoming and turn the Latent Nightbane into an Awakened Nightbane.

Wait a minute... is 'Awakened Nightbane' actually a book term or are we just adopting something suggested in the thread? Just wondering...

Also I still think that even if trauma's the usual stimulus it's not an absolute requirement because it mentions Nightbane having the Becoming in their sleep. I guess that could be a traumatic nightmare... but I still don't see where it says it HAS to be trauma.

Really you'd assume trauma would always induce insanity so 'stress' might've been better.

It is certainly possible that modifications could be done to the Latent Nightbane (there's the implication that a Latent Nightbane may be transformed into a Wampyr) but there is no indication that advantages gained through those modifications would be retained by the Facade form or passed on the the Morphus form with the first Becoming.

Ah but there's no indication to the contrary either Since most hypothetical changes weren't brought up.

this argument will never make it to page 4 if you go smothering the arguments with things like balanced logic and individual utility!

There is a deep hole in my heart for all the time I put into deconstructing the insults. I think something is lost, the opportunity to learn and grow from the conflicts

[cornholioprime]

We should avoid paraphrasing when possible, and when we do, just rearrange words, not substitute new ones. It says Facade/Morphus, not Latent/Awakened, for example, which mean different things.

In that same paragraph, it also says "Latent."

The reason why I deliberately paraphrased the passage in the Nightbane World Book, was because I wanted to impart to the readers, here, the way that I interpreted that paragraph.

The mention of Latent in that section was in regard to magical tattoos though, not the other issues.

That's YOUR reading of the paragraph.

MY reading of that particular paragraph, as I illustrated by laying it out the way that I see it, at the very least shows that the wording CAN be perceived in more than one way.

[Tor]

MY reading of that particular paragraph, as I illustrated by laying it out the way that I see it, at the very least shows that the wording CAN be perceived in more than one way.

Things can be misread to be perceived in any myriad of ways. That doesn't make it accurate. The statement about bio-wizardry mentions the Facade and Morphus. Facade arguably doesn't apply to Latents, can't disguise a Morphus that doesn't exist yet. Latents don't possess the Nightbane power of Immune to Transformation yet, so why would a Latent be immune to bio-wizardry?

If I wanted an opinion I would have asked for it-but I didn't... I asked for the question to be answered, and that answer to backed up by canon.

Answering a question and making interpretations of how canon does or doesn't back up concepts is an opinion. All communication is opinion. Even if all someone was doing was quoting a book, it's still their opinion of what the book reads and their accuracy in transcribing it.

[cornholioprime]

MY reading of that particular paragraph, as I illustrated by laying it out the way that I see it, at the very least shows that the wording CAN be perceived in more than one way.

Things can be misread to be perceived in any myriad of ways. That doesn't make it accurate.

Nor does a simple statement from you or anybody else saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE to interpret a given sentence/paragraph in any other way than in the way that you see it, necessarily make your statement accurate.

The statement about bio-wizardry mentions the Facade and Morphus.

The statement about Bio-Wizardy is part of (in my opinion) an all-encompassing paragraph that shows how stringent the prohibition is against Nightbane having other "installed" powers and abilities to go along with their potential Talents and Nightbane abilities; to ME, the paragraph as a whole doesn't even want a Player to try and get around the restrictions (and maybe, just maybe, this is for Game/Character Balance) by first powering up a Latent, THEN turning on the character's Nightbane talents and then presenting the quasi-munchkin character to your GM for approval.

"Yeah, Mr. G.M., my character has a BUTTLOAD of Tats and resulting additional MDC/SDC because he was a Maxi-Man BEFORE he Awakened! Now gimme BOTH power sets!"

Facade arguably doesn't apply to Latents, can't disguise a Morphus that doesn't exist yet. Latents don't possess the Nightbane power of Immune to Transformation yet, so why would a Latent be immune to bio-wizardry?

This was already covered by myself specifically in a previous post, wherein I used an example of yet another "latent" R.C.C. (specifically, a Sea Titan), with yet another example of how the Author in question says one thing ((paraphrased)) ("Until they reach puberty, Sea Titans don't have any powers!"), then turns around and says something else ((paraphrased)) ("Pre-Sea Titan Children are immune to disease!").

By the way, that was the same Author (Carella) using the same sort of rhetorical device for both R.C.Cs, so by MY reading of his Rifts Conversion Template for Nightbanes, he doesn't really count "Immunity To Transformation" as an Active Power despite its inclusion in the list of Nightbane abilities, and therefore applies it both to Latent and Awakened Nightbane.

[Tor]

Nor does a simple statement from you or anybody else saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE to interpret a given sentence/paragraph in any other way than in the way that you see it, necessarily make your statement accurate.

I didn't say it's impossible to interpret a sentence that way, I believe you do, I just think it's wrong, and that interpretations can be compared and ranked for accuracy and sense. That's the point of this

The statement about Bio-Wizardy is part of (in my opinion) an all-encompassing paragraph that shows how stringent the prohibition is against Nightbane having other "installed" powers and abilities to go along with their potential Talents and Nightbane abilities; to ME, the paragraph as a whole doesn't even want a Player to try and get around the restrictions (and maybe, just maybe, this is for Game/Character Balance) by first powering up a Latent, THEN turning on the character's Nightbane talents and then presenting the quasi-munchkin character to your GM for approval.

I concur with you about this, that was most likely author's intention and the overall message.

I don't care about intentions and themes though, I care about what rules literally allow and disallow. When Cyber-Knights were originally written, Kevin probably hadn't thought up the Rahu-Man Cyber-Knight yet, but then that happened.

:twisted: "Yeah, Mr. G.M., my character has a BUTTLOAD of Tats and resulting additional MDC/SDC because he was a Maxi-Man BEFORE he Awakened! Now gimme BOTH power sets!"

I'm not advocating this, the rules clearly say that the tattoos do not work even on Latents. I assume that includes not adding S/MDC or PPE. My objections' only that the inability to use Tats/Cybernetics isn't explicitly extended to bio-wizardry.

This was already covered by myself specifically in a previous post, wherein I used an example of yet another "latent" R.C.C. (specifically, a Sea Titan), with yet another example of how the Author in question says one thing ((paraphrased)) ("Until they reach puberty, Sea Titans don't have any powers!"), then turns around and says something else ((paraphrased)) ("Pre-Sea Titan Children are immune to disease!").

I'll go fish out underseas, I want to see if ItD is listed as a natural ability or a 'power'.

By the way, that was the same Author (Carella) using the same sort of rhetorical device for both R.C.Cs, so by MY reading of his Rifts Conversion Template for Nightbanes, he doesn't really count "Immunity To Transformation" as an Active Power despite its inclusion in the list of Nightbane abilities, and therefore applies it both to Latent and Awakened Nightbane.

It's in the list of 'Nightbane Powers' and the main book says twice that a Latent has none of those powers in that list.

I'm still waiting for another interpetation-as no one has addressed my point.....

I was just waiting until I was sure opinions related to the point were acceptable

this translates to what enhancement a nightbane had prior doesn't matter; it includes that bio-wizardry has no effect. Again once the character is a Nightbane, they are a Nightbane.....

Nightbane have an immunity to transformation (save those from talents... maybe those are shapeshifting?) and they expel cybernetics (even in Facade) and magic tattoos they get don't work, they're just normal tattoos (even on Latents) but bio-wizardry isn't stated as being rejected from the body, nor are mutations stated as being reversed.

How I interprtet it right from the text I don't worry about exceptions to the rule; when the rule is written clearly-

The clear rules only state that the Morphus and Facade can't get the magical transformation. Whether or not the Latent's form is yet a 'Facade' is a debatable issue.

You may of coarse interpret the rules how you wish; and no one who disagrees with my point is yet to address the question I posed that does not include anything more then there opinion why? If I wanted an opinion I would have asked for it-but I didn't... I asked for the question to be answered, and that answer to backed up by canon.

Answers ARE opinions. You are asking for opinions if you ask for responses even if you say you're not. You're asking for opinions based on canonical texts.

The NB main book is what I'm referencing here. It is canon.

[eliakon]

Here are my two cents. If they are regular humans untill they transform.....then why would they still be locked to specific classes....humans dont have RCC limitations, and Nightbane do. You dont learn your entire life skills AFTER your becoming, but your learning before hand is STILL limited to the RCC selections, also it points out that your nature can be detected with things like see aura. If your locked on class selection, and can be magicaly sorted, then perhaps your a race, you could STILL be human AND a race (human mutants are still human, but are of the sub race mutant)

[Tor]

Nightbane generally undergo their Becoming during puberty, which is usually when people are in high school, prior to acquiring an OCC. The skill package reflects general skills and some modifications based on what they learn after the Becoming.

If a player was playing a Latent who was 24 or something and still hadn't transformed, it would make sense to give them an OCC.

it points out that your nature can be detected with things like see aura

See Truth, which is a Nightbane Talent, not See Aura the psychic power.

It states right there that bio-wizardry has no effect....It doesn't matter if its rejected-It has no effect-

It mentions that it has no effect on the Morphus or Facade.

Latents do not have a Morphus, and I'm going to argue that their form is not a 'Facade' because it's the only one they have. Their form only becomes a Facade when they get a Morphus.

But by that time, it's too late, because the transformation is done.

[13eowulf]

It states right there that bio-wizardry has no effect....It doesn't matter if its rejected-It has no effect-

It mentions that it has no effect on the Morphus or Facade.

Latents do not have a Morphus, and I'm going to argue that their form is not a 'Facade' because it's the only one they have. Their form only becomes a Facade when they get a Morphus.

But by that time, it's too late, because the transformation is done.

Gonna throw in my 2 cents as well.
Their youthful form does not change to a Facade after the Becoming, it is always the Facade. Just because it is the only form they have does not mean it is not their 'Facade' form. Before the becoming a latent Nightbane may be restricted to their facade form, this in no way meant that is is anything other than their Facade form, and thus all text referring to the Facade form applies to the pre-becoming Facade. During the Becoming, which is often equated to puberty, they gain access their Morphus. But calling them 'Latent Nightbane' instead of 'human' would indicate that they are not human even in pre-becoming Facade form, and further would seem to imply that the Morphus is always there, but it is not unleashed until the becoming.

Cheers.

[Tor]

The Morphus is a static shape (except for that 1 fluctuating stigmata thing). If it is indeed based on the subconscious, then it only exists at whatever point in time the subconscious fixes it in place. We don't know when that its, so saying it's fixed on 1st Becoming is the most inclusive answer.

The rules are clear that Nightbane Powers do not apply to Latents. That includes the immunity to transformation.

The ItT makes me wonder: perhaps the Becoming or whatever we call changing back into Facade from Morphus (Unbecoming? Reversion?) isn't a 'transformation' so much as an 'exchange'. The separate HP/SDC pools and healing kinda allude to this.

One critical thing about the Morphus also worth touching on: this is the form that Banes revert to in the Dreamstream. They can willingly change to Facade there, but after a short period of time they're forced back into Morphus form. The reverse is not true.

Being that the Dreamstream is fed by people's unconsciousness and dreams, the tie between that and the Morphus probably related to the Morphus being based on the unconscious mind.

[cornholioprime]

The statement about Bio-Wizardy is part of (in my opinion) an all-encompassing paragraph that shows how stringent the prohibition is against Nightbane having other "installed" powers and abilities to go along with their potential Talents and Nightbane abilities; to ME, the paragraph as a whole doesn't even want a Player to try and get around the restrictions (and maybe, just maybe, this is for Game/Character Balance) by first powering up a Latent, THEN turning on the character's Nightbane talents and then presenting the quasi-munchkin character to your GM for approval.

I concur with you about this, that was most likely author's intention and the overall message.

I don't care about intentions and themes though, I care about what rules literally allow and disallow. When Cyber-Knights were originally written, Kevin probably hadn't thought up the Rahu-Man Cyber-Knight yet, but then that happened.

As far as what I see in MY reading of the text, that paragraph IS the rule, and to ME the reading of that paragraph as a whole -including the statement that states that Nightbane aren't actually "human" at any stage of their existence -leads ME to believe that "Immunity to Transformation" also extends to the Unawakened Latent Nightbane.

How Cornholioprime reads the paragraph on page 143 of Nightbane: Between the Shadows:

"You know what? You can bring a Nightbane to Rifts Earth, but their immunity to transformation is even stricter for them than it is for a True Atlanteans -so much so that even a Latent Nightbane cannot so much as receive something as simple as Magic Tattoos, so you can just forget about the even more magically complicated stuff like Bio-Wizardry or Transformation Circles."

Furthermore: I read that paragraph to be just as much a rule as the information found in the Nightbane Main Book, and since the Sourcebook came to print three years AFTER the information in the Main Book, it should by all rights be more official than the information in the earlier Book.

Cornholioprime's Conclusion: "Immunity To Transformation," while it is listed as an active power in the Nightbane Main Book, seems to be by the intent of the Author -and clarified by his statement in the later Sourcebook -to be more of a passive ability inherent in every member of that "species," whether the individual in question is either Latent or Awakened.