Why is the system so broken?

[BloodAnjiel]

I love this game, but I have found MANY things that are broken. I mentioned magic in a previous post, and I get it, but it still seems like it could be fixed. The game can be severely unbalanced with a simple item. I believe that the leveling system is severely messed up. First off, why do only your skills change? Why do you not get stronger or tougher? How about gaining a little ME because you character has, most of the time, dealt with quite a bit? I completely understand why IQ and PB don't go up, but what about the rest of it? ME and MA can be increased by dealing with stress and learning how to deal with people better. All physical stats can be increased simply by doing regular activity. When it comes to combat, I disagree, first of all, with the attacks per melee. How can someone who is trained in combat only throw a punch 7 or 8 times in 15 seconds? I know people in karate and other forms of martial arts that can do double that. And why is ranged combat limited to the same number of attacks as regular hand to hand? I can personally empty a 15 round clip from a pistol in 3 or 4 seconds, not extremely accurate granted, but still, only a couple more seconds for better accuracy. And fully automatic weapons can be emptied just as quickly, if not more so. I know the sustained firing reduces accuracy in this instance also, but automatic weapons are made for crowd control or putting enough bullets in someone to make sure they don't get up. There are also issues with the weapons. Almost every technological weapon I have seen has been WAY underpowered. I will use an sdc weapon as an example. A .357, arguably one of the strongest hand guns on the market, only does 4d6. For a man of arms, it could take 3 shots before the person has to worry too much. In actuality, a .357 would most likely kill in 1 shot, soldier or not. MDC weapons are not much better as far as the damage output goes. I can see the idea behind lowering the damage, avoiding 1 shot kills, but there are ways to do that without taking away the damage the gun does or changing how much health the character has; armor. Armor is available, which is all well and good, but the weapons are the problem I am having. As far as magic is concerned, it should be stronger. The magic in rifts is made to change the flow of combat with carpet of adhesion or wind rush or some similar spell. All well and good, but what about damaging? The damaging spells wouldn't take down a lightly armored fly, much less a person in full armor. It would take an army of mages to take down one of almost any monster in the mega-verse. The most damaging spell that I have seen so far is call lightning and it does a d6 per level. The game allows players to start at level 4...that's only 4d6 total. That's the same as an MDC version of a .357, not much if you ask me.
Anyway, I just want to hear some other opinions. What do you all think?

[tmikesecrist3]

some of those issues have already been dealt with... with burst rules and shooting wild you can fire off a 15-20 round magazine in one round..... but you cant do that with aimed shots... hell I have fired Rifles hand guns even assult rifles. but I cant not fire more then about 5-8 aimed shots in a min and I am good at quickly getting a sight pictore and takeing a shot. as for Hand to hand combat. the porbly need something like shooting wild becouse yeah I see what your saying when I was boxing I could and working out regarealy I could porbly throw about 15 or so jabs. in a min... now if I want to throw a punch with control and power I have to slow down to someting like the Hand to hand attacks a carcter would have... but you could porbly fix that with ninja's and supper spys if you use N&SS then I would count boxing and Wrestling as Martel arts not physical skills

[kaid]

Also for the characters not getting stronger or tougher Rifts has a bit of all worlds. Some classes especially the mages one have much more traditional power gain with levels. Some especially the men at arms classes are a very flat power gradation and are almost totally loot dependent for power levels.

If you enjoy a class that gets more potent over time there are many options for that if you like a fairly flat power gain but access to use any big toys you find then there are options for that too.

[Incriptus]

It's not broken, but it is a bit archaic. It has some difficulties with internal consistancy. Often the rules can't decide between the abstract & the literal. Sometimes it can't decide if the action is cinamatic or realistic. It simply comes from a time where the artistic mind set of "do what feels right" rather than a more scientific engineered approach was the norm.

Sometimes it works, other times it doesnt. If you don't like something though it's easy enough to change. I guess one of the advantages of a amorphous system like this is that you can remove or change any piece without it causing aftershocks throughout the rest of the system.

[Blue_Lion]

Wait you do not get tuffer as you level? I could have sworn you get SDC/HP when you level. Nornaly even in real life increase in physical str do not come just with exp, (in fact as you get old you loose some of it.) but when you work at it witch is represented by skills. So when you add a new form of work out say when you level take boady building as your level skill then you whould. I do not see the system as broaken per say it does have its problems but every game does. It may not be game X but even game X has problems.

[earthhawk]

The game mechanics are old (early 80s if I'm not mistaken), and because of the massive amount of content (60+ books), you'll never see a real update. Players have been complaining about Rifts for decades (no joke) and yet the only "update" was the Rifts Unlimited Edition. The bottom line is this: you either house-rule to the game to your liking, or find another game to play. The only reason I still have my Rifts books is for the nostalga factor, other than that they are a relic of a by-gone era in gaming.

[kaid]

The game mechanics are old (early 80s if I'm not mistaken), and because of the massive amount of content (60+ books), you'll never see a real update. Players have been complaining about Rifts for decades (no joke) and yet the only "update" was the Rifts Unlimited Edition. The bottom line is this: you either house-rule to the game to your liking, or find another game to play. The only reason I still have my Rifts books is for the nostalga factor, other than that they are a relic of a by-gone era in gaming.

Still I almost prefer this to what you get with D&D making new editions every few years and buying pretty much the same books over and over again. At least with palladium they tend to keep adding on and moving forward and not just redoing the same books over and over and over again.

While I would not be adverse to some rules cleanup and I am not a super fan of the MDC system I still prefer the rifts system over something like the dresen files game or D&D 4th edition. I find almost every gaming system out there has some weird quirks that require house rulings to work smoothly. The palladium system actually works pretty well on SDC worlds it is only on the mix of SDC/MDC worlds where it can get a bit creaky just due to the danger of insty gibbing players. With the MDC system its a bit hard to get attached to any SDC character because sometimes its hard to not kill them as a GM even if you don't really want to.

[Damian Magecraft]

I love this game, but I have found MANY things that are broken. I mentioned magic in a previous post, and I get it, but it still seems like it could be fixed.

You are going to have to elaborate on this I dont see it as "needing fixed"

The game can be severely unbalanced with a simple item.

as can any other system... not seeing an issue here

I believe that the leveling system is severely messed up. First off, why do only your skills change? Why do you not get stronger or tougher?

extra hps and new physical skills dont count as getting tougher?

How about gaining a little ME because you character has, most of the time, dealt with quite a bit? I completely understand why IQ and PB don't go up, but what about the rest of it? ME and MA can be increased by dealing with stress and learning how to deal with people better.

now this I can get behind, a method of increasing the mental skills would be a nice addition, but a missing concept does not a broken system make

All physical stats can be increased simply by doing regular activity.

Here you refute your own argument that characters do not get tougher

When it comes to combat, I disagree, first of all, with the attacks per melee. How can someone who is trained in combat only throw a punch 7 or 8 times in 15 seconds? I know people in karate and other forms of martial arts that can do double that.

and those individuals are the exception not the norm; They trained in their form to the exclusion of most everything else to achieve those results. The mechanics are to represent a median average

And why is ranged combat limited to the same number of attacks as regular hand to hand? I can personally empty a 15 round clip from a pistol in 3 or 4 seconds, not extremely accurate granted, but still, only a couple more seconds for better accuracy. And fully automatic weapons can be emptied just as quickly, if not more so. I know the sustained firing reduces accuracy in this instance also, but automatic weapons are made for crowd control or putting enough bullets in someone to make sure they don't get up.

See the rules for bursts and firing wild

There are also issues with the weapons. Almost every technological weapon I have seen has been WAY underpowered. I will use an sdc weapon as an example. A .357, arguably one of the strongest hand guns on the market, only does 4d6. For a man of arms, it could take 3 shots before the person has to worry too much. In actuality, a .357 would most likely kill in 1 shot, soldier or not.

and how fun would it be for you to have spent approximately 30 minutes to an hour (or more) on character creation only to have to create a new one because he got killed by a one hit instant kill weapon? It was a design choice.

MDC weapons are not much better as far as the damage output goes. I can see the idea behind lowering the damage, avoiding 1 shot kills, but there are ways to do that without taking away the damage the gun does or changing how much health the character has; armor. Armor is available, which is all well and good, but the weapons are the problem I am having. As far as magic is concerned, it should be stronger. The magic in rifts is made to change the flow of combat with carpet of adhesion or wind rush or some similar spell. All well and good, but what about damaging? The damaging spells wouldn't take down a lightly armored fly, much less a person in full armor. It would take an army of mages to take down one of almost any monster in the mega-verse. The most damaging spell that I have seen so far is call lightning and it does a d6 per level. The game allows players to start at level 4...that's only 4d6 total. That's the same as an MDC version of a .357, not much if you ask me.
Anyway, I just want to hear some other opinions. What do you all think?

Of course Magic is "weak" if your sole criteria is damage out put. Magic is much more than just how much damage I can do in a single attack. sometimes DPS is the least important thing.

[earthhawk]

You will never convince anyone who has played the Palladium system for any length of time that their game needs to be fixed. They will come out of the woodworks to tell you that you are wrong with quotations and red lettering. Trust me, I've tried. It's better to leave the 300 remaining fans of the game to their own devices. Hell, some of them are still waiting for phone calls from KS thanking them for participating in the FIRST Megaversal Insider way back in... May 2012? I would just leave it alone and find another game, it's much easier and less stressful.

[Akashic Soldier]

301 fans.

Loveit!

[earthhawk]

301 fans.

High-five!

[kaid]

I am not saying that there are not weaknesses in the palladium system or things I would love to see cleared up. My biggest peeve is the psionics system is really weak in the MDC settings with some of the abilities have really silly balance problems (mind bolt I am looking at you 40isp for pittance of damage).

But I have similar problems with just about every single RPG system I have ever seen each has its own quirks and failings. Part of me would like to see a palladium second edition but as shown by D&D 4th edition its just as possible to screw things up worst with a new edition as it is to fix existing issues.

[Killer Cyborg]

I am not saying that there are not weaknesses in the palladium system or things I would love to see cleared up. My biggest peeve is the psionics system is really weak in the MDC settings with some of the abilities have really silly balance problems (mind bolt I am looking at you 40isp for pittance of damage).

Back in the day, inflicting that kind of damage with your mind was fairly impressive.
Power Creep made it relatively lamer over time.

Still, Mind Bolt is technically a pretty awesome weapon against vampires, depending on interpretation.
According to VKr, it "inflicts Hit Point damage (rather than SDC) but at half damage."
So instead of 6d6 SDC damage for 20 ISP, you can inflict 3d6 damage against vampires.
Or, presumably, instead of 2d4 MD for 40 ISP, you can inflict 1d4 MD to vampires.
Which they can regenerate from... but it's gonna take them a little while.

[kaid]

I am not saying that there are not weaknesses in the palladium system or things I would love to see cleared up. My biggest peeve is the psionics system is really weak in the MDC settings with some of the abilities have really silly balance problems (mind bolt I am looking at you 40isp for pittance of damage).

Back in the day, inflicting that kind of damage with your mind was fairly impressive.
Power Creep made it relatively lamer over time.

Still, Mind Bolt is technically a pretty awesome weapon against vampires, depending on interpretation.
According to VKr, it "inflicts Hit Point damage (rather than SDC) but at half damage."
So instead of 6d6 SDC damage for 20 ISP, you can inflict 3d6 damage against vampires.
Or, presumably, instead of 2d4 MD for 40 ISP, you can inflict 1d4 MD to vampires.
Which they can regenerate from... but it's gonna take them a little while.

Even back in the day almost nobody took it. One use of the MDC varient is about 1/3 of most super psi starting ISP. Most would pick things like bio manipulation due to reasonable cost/effect. Even if it is somewhat effective at least temporarily stopping a vampire 3 blasts of that leaves most psychics tapped out or close to it which makes it very ineffective.

[Akashic Soldier]

I am not saying that there are not weaknesses in the palladium system or things I would love to see cleared up. My biggest peeve is the psionics system is really weak in the MDC settings with some of the abilities have really silly balance problems (mind bolt I am looking at you 40isp for pittance of damage).

Back in the day, inflicting that kind of damage with your mind was fairly impressive.
Power Creep made it relatively lamer over time.

Still, Mind Bolt is technically a pretty awesome weapon against vampires, depending on interpretation.
According to VKr, it "inflicts Hit Point damage (rather than SDC) but at half damage."
So instead of 6d6 SDC damage for 20 ISP, you can inflict 3d6 damage against vampires.
Or, presumably, instead of 2d4 MD for 40 ISP, you can inflict 1d4 MD to vampires.
Which they can regenerate from... but it's gonna take them a little while.

Even back in the day almost nobody took it. One use of the MDC varient is about 1/3 of most super psi starting ISP. Most would pick things like bio manipulation due to reasonable cost/effect. Even if it is somewhat effective at least temporarily stopping a vampire 3 blasts of that leaves most psychics tapped out or close to it which makes it very ineffective.

Don't forget its BIGGEST advantage. Unless someone can sense psionics no one knows youre doing it. Unlike with other weapons or magic, there are no physical clues. You're just getting slammed for damage and you don't know why (since most people cannot sense psionics). Like with everything in Palladium, its not the power, its how you use it.

[Killer Cyborg]

I am not saying that there are not weaknesses in the palladium system or things I would love to see cleared up. My biggest peeve is the psionics system is really weak in the MDC settings with some of the abilities have really silly balance problems (mind bolt I am looking at you 40isp for pittance of damage).

Back in the day, inflicting that kind of damage with your mind was fairly impressive.
Power Creep made it relatively lamer over time.

Still, Mind Bolt is technically a pretty awesome weapon against vampires, depending on interpretation.
According to VKr, it "inflicts Hit Point damage (rather than SDC) but at half damage."
So instead of 6d6 SDC damage for 20 ISP, you can inflict 3d6 damage against vampires.
Or, presumably, instead of 2d4 MD for 40 ISP, you can inflict 1d4 MD to vampires.
Which they can regenerate from... but it's gonna take them a little while.

Even back in the day almost nobody took it. One use of the MDC varient is about 1/3 of most super psi starting ISP. Most would pick things like bio manipulation due to reasonable cost/effect. Even if it is somewhat effective at least temporarily stopping a vampire 3 blasts of that leaves most psychics tapped out or close to it which makes it very ineffective.

Not ineffective, just a bit limited in usefulness.
It's a concealable mega-damage weapon that nobody can take from you without killing you.
That's pretty cool, and it's pretty useful.
It's just not a "let's constantly use this power in mega-damage slugfests" kind of power.

I agree, though, that it was always a bit overpriced, and/or under-powered, and could use some tweaking.

Personally, I generally avoided Bio-Manipulation, because it's too easy to save, and a lot of stuff is flat-out impervious to it.

[Blue_Lion]

You will never convince anyone who has played the Palladium system for any length of time that their game needs to be fixed. They will come out of the woodworks to tell you that you are wrong with quotations and red lettering. Trust me, I've tried. It's better to leave the 300 remaining fans of the game to their own devices. Hell, some of them are still waiting for phone calls from KS thanking them for participating in the FIRST Megaversal Insider way back in... May 2012? I would just leave it alone and find another game, it's much easier and less stressful.

Wait i thaght every one here was a fan to one degree or another.

[flatline]

When it comes to combat, I disagree, first of all, with the attacks per melee. How can someone who is trained in combat only throw a punch 7 or 8 times in 15 seconds? I know people in karate and other forms of martial arts that can do double that.

[color=#FF0000]and those individuals are the exception not the norm; They trained in their form to the exclusion of most everything else to achieve those results.

Sitting here in my chair, I just threw 40 chain punches in 6 seconds and I wasn't even really trying. That's 100 attacks per melee.

Now chain punching is a rather extreme example, but it does demonstrate that either the melee round is too long or the number of attacks per melee is too small.

I totally agree that attacks per melee is bunk as it's currently implemented. When starting with a new group, I set the pace at one attack per second and adjust from there based on the type of attack.

--flatline

[Akashic Soldier]

Sitting here in my chair, I just threw 40 chain punches in 6 seconds and I wasn't even really trying. That's 100 attacks per melee.

Now chain punching is a rather extreme example, but it does demonstrate that either the melee round is too long or the number of attacks per melee is too small.

I totally agree that attacks per melee is bunk as it's currently implemented. When starting with a new group, I set the pace at one attack per second and adjust from there based on the type of attack.

--flatline

As someone who has had experience in competitive fighting (Limited to Taekwondo but mostly Mixed Martial Arts and self-defense training from the Reserves) I can tell you right now that there is no way in hell that you can count on landing that many attacks in a stand up fight in 15 seconds. People move, you have to spend time compensating, its easy to think "I can attack faster!" but I can assure you that there is a difference between "successful" attack and just throwing a punch at someone. Throw the wrong punch, have your balance off just a little, and that could well be the end of you.

[flatline]

You will never convince anyone who has played the Palladium system for any length of time that their game needs to be fixed.

I consider myself a fan (why else would I be here?) but I have lots of complaints about the system, so much so that if you played with me, you probably wouldn't recognize much past character creation.

--flatline

[Damian Magecraft]

Sitting here in my chair, I just threw 40 chain punches in 6 seconds and I wasn't even really trying. That's 100 attacks per melee.

Now chain punching is a rather extreme example, but it does demonstrate that either the melee round is too long or the number of attacks per melee is too small.

I totally agree that attacks per melee is bunk as it's currently implemented. When starting with a new group, I set the pace at one attack per second and adjust from there based on the type of attack.

--flatline

As someone who has had experience in competitive fighting (Limited to Taekwondo but mostly Mixed Martial Arts and self-defense training from the Reserves) I can tell you right now that there is no way in hell that you can count on landing that many attacks in a stand up fight in 15 seconds. People move, you have to spend time compensating, its easy to think "I can attack faster!" but I can assure you that there is a difference between "successful" attack and just throwing a punch at someone. Throw the wrong punch, have your balance off just a little, and that could well be the end of you.

Not to mention the attacks in all likely hood would be of the no damage variety. Martial Arts is about more than just how "fast" you punch/kick.
Those punches/kicks have to be effective.
And that is what the system takes into account.

[Killer Cyborg]

Sitting here in my chair, I just threw 40 chain punches in 6 seconds and I wasn't even really trying. That's 100 attacks per melee.

Now chain punching is a rather extreme example, but it does demonstrate that either the melee round is too long or the number of attacks per melee is too small.

I totally agree that attacks per melee is bunk as it's currently implemented. When starting with a new group, I set the pace at one attack per second and adjust from there based on the type of attack.

--flatline

As someone who has had experience in competitive fighting (Limited to Taekwondo but mostly Mixed Martial Arts and self-defense training from the Reserves) I can tell you right now that there is no way in hell that you can count on landing that many attacks in a stand up fight in 15 seconds. People move, you have to spend time compensating, its easy to think "I can attack faster!" but I can assure you that there is a difference between "successful" attack and just throwing a punch at someone. Throw the wrong punch, have your balance off just a little, and that could well be the end of you.

There should be some Flurry rules for melee, though, akin to burst-firing.

[Damian Magecraft]

Sitting here in my chair, I just threw 40 chain punches in 6 seconds and I wasn't even really trying. That's 100 attacks per melee.

Now chain punching is a rather extreme example, but it does demonstrate that either the melee round is too long or the number of attacks per melee is too small.

I totally agree that attacks per melee is bunk as it's currently implemented. When starting with a new group, I set the pace at one attack per second and adjust from there based on the type of attack.

--flatline

As someone who has had experience in competitive fighting (Limited to Taekwondo but mostly Mixed Martial Arts and self-defense training from the Reserves) I can tell you right now that there is no way in hell that you can count on landing that many attacks in a stand up fight in 15 seconds. People move, you have to spend time compensating, its easy to think "I can attack faster!" but I can assure you that there is a difference between attack and just throwing a punch at someone. Throw the wrong punch, have your balance off just a little, and that could well be the end of you.

There should be some Flurry rules for melee, though, akin to burst-firing.

similar to what they have for the Monk in 3.x?
sure but how effective would they be?
Those "flurry of blows" more often than not have no power behind them.

[earthhawk]

You will never convince anyone who has played the Palladium system for any length of time that their game needs to be fixed. They will come out of the woodworks to tell you that you are wrong with quotations and red lettering. Trust me, I've tried. It's better to leave the 300 remaining fans of the game to their own devices. Hell, some of them are still waiting for phone calls from KS thanking them for participating in the FIRST Megaversal Insider way back in... May 2012? I would just leave it alone and find another game, it's much easier and less stressful.

Wait i thaght every one here was a fan to one degree or another.

I'm a fan of the setting and the lore. I'm not a fan the out-dated game mechanics nor the way business is done. I think it's really uncool to tell people that if they participate in your Megaversal Insider program AND pay way above what the merchandise is actually worth that you the owner (Kevin), will personally call and thank them. Yet here we are no less than six months later and you have people still waiting for that call from Kevin. Honestly there's no excuse for it and it's terrible way to "thank" the people participating in the kick-starter program. Plus, to make it company policy to over-promise and under-deliver time and time again just irks me a person. So yeah the lore and setting are great, everything else sucks.

[Blue_Lion]

How about instead of looking at the number that you can throw in non combat to looking at what is practicle in combat.

For boxer training for 3 min rounds.

1.Start with 60 punches (20 jab-jab-cross combinations) per round for 10 rounds
2.Rest 1-minute between rounds
3.Every sequential workout, add 6 punches (2 additional combinations)
4.Work your way up to 120 punches (40 combinations) per round
5.Keeping 120 punches per round, start mixing up your combinations

That equates to 5 punches per round at the start up to 10 at the top. Now this is based off a web search for boxing training to build puch endurance.
http://stevehunter.hubpages.com/hub/How ... und-Boxing

Now for ranged attacks the fastest target on a M16 range is some where around 3-5 seconds and most the times if it is missed it is because a person shoots to late.

Now why do some combos, and chain punching seam faster? Simple you are not fighting a person if you spam punches attacks they just weave out of the way and clober you.

The most punches ever landed in a chapmion ship boxing fight is Troy Dorsey 620 12 Jorge Paez. (that can be up to 15 3 min round but curntly limited to 12 3 min rounds.)

Now off a UFC page for UFC 153 the high strikes for a three round match was 176. Now with 5 min rounds that is 8.8 strikes.
http://espn.go.com/mma/fightcenter?eventId=400273781

So given that profecesional MMA fighters are not far from the attcks per min I do not think it is as far off as you are saying.

[flatline]

Sitting here in my chair, I just threw 40 chain punches in 6 seconds and I wasn't even really trying. That's 100 attacks per melee.

Now chain punching is a rather extreme example, but it does demonstrate that either the melee round is too long or the number of attacks per melee is too small.

I totally agree that attacks per melee is bunk as it's currently implemented. When starting with a new group, I set the pace at one attack per second and adjust from there based on the type of attack.

--flatline

As someone who has had experience in competitive fighting (Limited to Taekwondo but mostly Mixed Martial Arts and self-defense training from the Reserves) I can tell you right now that there is no way in hell that you can count on landing that many attacks in a stand up fight in 15 seconds. People move, you have to spend time compensating, its easy to think "I can attack faster!" but I can assure you that there is a difference between attack and just throwing a punch at someone. Throw the wrong punch, have your balance off just a little, and that could well be the end of you.

There should be some Flurry rules for melee, though, akin to burst-firing.

similar to what they have for the Monk in 3.x?
sure but how effective would they be?
Those "flurry of blows" more often than not have no power behind them.

Really? Each chain punch has almost as much power as a forefist, so I would expect any one of them to break your nose, your jaw, or crush your wind pipe if they landed on any of those targets.

But that's not the point of chain punches. Chain punches are used to clear away your opponent's defenses. If each of my chain punches has the power to knock your arm out of the way and you can't raise your arms faster than I'm throwing chain punches, then in very short order I'm going to have access to your head, neck, and/or body. Once I have access to these choice targets, I'll probably switch from chain punches to a more appropriate attack.

--flatline

[Damian Magecraft]

you go right on believing that if it helps you sleep at night

Warning: Flaming

[Blue_Lion]

Sitting here in my chair, I just threw 40 chain punches in 6 seconds and I wasn't even really trying. That's 100 attacks per melee.

Now chain punching is a rather extreme example, but it does demonstrate that either the melee round is too long or the number of attacks per melee is too small.

I totally agree that attacks per melee is bunk as it's currently implemented. When starting with a new group, I set the pace at one attack per second and adjust from there based on the type of attack.

--flatline

As someone who has had experience in competitive fighting (Limited to Taekwondo but mostly Mixed Martial Arts and self-defense training from the Reserves) I can tell you right now that there is no way in hell that you can count on landing that many attacks in a stand up fight in 15 seconds. People move, you have to spend time compensating, its easy to think "I can attack faster!" but I can assure you that there is a difference between attack and just throwing a punch at someone. Throw the wrong punch, have your balance off just a little, and that could well be the end of you.

There should be some Flurry rules for melee, though, akin to burst-firing.

similar to what they have for the Monk in 3.x?
sure but how effective would they be?
Those "flurry of blows" more often than not have no power behind them.

Really? Each chain punch has almost as much power as a forefist, so I would expect any one of them to break your nose, your jaw, or crush your wind pipe if they landed on any of those targets.

But that's not the point of chain punches. Chain punches are used to clear away your opponent's defenses. If each of my chain punches has the power to knock your arm out of the way and you can't raise your arms faster than I'm throwing chain punches, then in very short order I'm going to have access to your head, neck, and/or body. Once I have access to these choice targets, I'll probably switch from chain punches to a more appropriate attack.

--flatline

Have you compared your chain punch on a presure mat to your for fist. I highly doubt if you are spaming them that fast they are effective or that it is a sustainable combat tech. Nornaly you throw a combo then have a pause if you are constaly swining you will get. With any training speed bag/chain punches are good for building hand eye cordintion but lack the abilty to do signeficnet damage. Total a combo may be able to match the forefist but not per punch.

[Blue_Lion]

Things I see that need to be updated or are all kerfuffled:
Core Combat Mechanics
Character Advancement
"Gosh Ma', a whole D6 to my HP and +5% to all my skills? That's just dandy". Like the OP said, I think level advancement pretty much sucks for most Men at Arms and non-adventuring classes. I attribute this to the fact that if they have any special abilities, they are often all available at first level. However, characters like cyber-knights that have a variety of abilities not available until later levels offer more incentive to reach higher levels and to change your play style when you get that new ability. Now I know that skills make up a lot of a level up but theres a few issues with this: 1) Some people just simply don't need any more skills. 2) Some OCCs get pretty poor skills over levels (OCCs from Dead Reign that get no primary come to mind) 3) Often, if you picked up a new skill it is usually not nearly as useful as a mage getting a new spell or a cyber-knight finally getting auto-dodge against multiple opponents. (On a side note: where is ma multi-classing? NPCs can do it! grumble grumble)

So wait a Pluss 1 on a D20 per level to skills is not good enofe, and even the highest base HP per level from D&D is only what D12. You do start with more at level 1 but you make it sound like compared to other games you gain a pitence per level.

[flatline]

you go right on believing that if it helps you sleep at night

Now see, that wasn't very nice. You didn't even attempt to make an argument or contribute to the discussion except to be mean by implying that I was delusional.

It is worth your while to go learn how to chain punch and then practice with someone holding a pad who can tell you how your power compares between your forefists and chain punches.

--flatline

[eliakon]

you go right on believing that if it helps you sleep at night

Now see, that wasn't very nice. You didn't even attempt to make an argument or contribute to the discussion except to be mean by implying that I was delusional.

It is worth your while to go learn how to chain punch and then practice with someone holding a pad who can tell you how your power compares between your forefists and chain punches.

--flatline

Some of us HAVE learned hand to hand, we have been on the reciving end of chain punches vs regular punches. Chain punches have less power, and less accuracy over all. They are often used to feint, to probe defenses, and to beat back attacks, areas that are not well covered in the game. Of course its also possible that for isntance some of that '+X to strike and +Y to parry' is incorperated in stuff like chain punches, stance control and the like. So that there are lots of complex bits that are SUMMED UP as 'I punch, and parry'

[flatline]

you go right on believing that if it helps you sleep at night

Now see, that wasn't very nice. You didn't even attempt to make an argument or contribute to the discussion except to be mean by implying that I was delusional.

It is worth your while to go learn how to chain punch and then practice with someone holding a pad who can tell you how your power compares between your forefists and chain punches.

--flatline

Some of us HAVE learned hand to hand, we have been on the reciving end of chain punches vs regular punches. Chain punches have less power, and less accuracy over all. They are often used to feint, to probe defenses, and to beat back attacks, areas that are not well covered in the game. Of course its also possible that for isntance some of that '+X to strike and +Y to parry' is incorperated in stuff like chain punches, stance control and the like. So that there are lots of complex bits that are SUMMED UP as 'I punch, and parry'

And if you look at my original post, that's consistent with what I said (although I don't agree that chain punches are necessarily less accurate). They have enough power that they can't just be ignored, but once you've cleared away their bridge, you switch to other techniques.

--flatline

[eliakon]

you go right on believing that if it helps you sleep at night

Now see, that wasn't very nice. You didn't even attempt to make an argument or contribute to the discussion except to be mean by implying that I was delusional.

It is worth your while to go learn how to chain punch and then practice with someone holding a pad who can tell you how your power compares between your forefists and chain punches.

--flatline

Some of us HAVE learned hand to hand, we have been on the reciving end of chain punches vs regular punches. Chain punches have less power, and less accuracy over all. They are often used to feint, to probe defenses, and to beat back attacks, areas that are not well covered in the game. Of course its also possible that for isntance some of that '+X to strike and +Y to parry' is incorperated in stuff like chain punches, stance control and the like. So that there are lots of complex bits that are SUMMED UP as 'I punch, and parry'

And if you look at my original post, that's consistent with what I said (although I don't agree that chain punches are necessarily less accurate). They have enough power that they can't just be ignored, but once you've cleared away their bridge, you switch to other techniques.

--flatline

but it doesnt mean you get 100 apm....you might use 10 of those 'quick jabs' as part of you +3 to strike for that power punch. on PAPER its 1 attack, in 'reality' its 11....

[wyrmraker]

One of the primary reasons that the system (not the setting) is broken is that the foundational rules are all based on Palladium Fantasy. The H.P./S.D.C. system is perfect for that sort of setting. It made perfect sense, and was mostly logical and well thought out. Once guns, energy weapons, super powers, advanced martial arts, mega-damage, etc were slapped onto the base system, things began to make less sense. All of these things alter the game balance in sometimes ridiculously large ways, and tossing all of the ideas in a blender and attempting to pour it out into a single mold, such as the Rifts setting, means that there is the easy possibility of game-breakingly powerful characters.

As an example, our current Palladium GM is thoroughly enamored of the Heroes Unlimited Eugenics class. He has the First Printing, before the class was properly brought to heel. And he loves this class so much because it's so overpowered in comparison to any other class. He keeps calling me names (mostly jokingly) because I force him to use the official errata for the Eugenics class. In fact, I outright refuse to play in a game where he's created an NPC using just that book, without the errata.
To that end, his preferred class in Rifts in Vagabond, with superpowers ("What? It's allowed!"). Or trying to pull in a character from Skraypers. When I GM, I have to ride herd on him pretty harshly to keep him away from superpowers. In Rifts, a single, well-chosen superpower can render the rest of Rifts-only party moot short of carrying capacity.

But that's why the base system is broken, as far as I can see. All skills going up each level, even if I don't use them? I don't see it. But if you want a system that addresses all the issues with game balance between characters as well as realistic physics and combat, Palladium is not the way to go. It's GURPS (Which we also play, for thoroughly realistic games).

>Edit: Another point is the focus of the combat system. The grand majority of the bonuses deliberately slant combat to melee range. I have to disagree with the system that a guy with PP 10 and a guy with PP 25 and WP Pistol of the same level have the exact same chance of hitting their target. This disparity really hurts trying to build a character that specializes in ranged combat, without playing something along the lines of a Gunslinger. Even then, the bonuses really don't add up properly.

[BloodAnjiel]

All physical stats can be increased simply by doing regular activity.

Here you refute your own argument that characters do not get tougher
In this instance, I was speaking in literal terms, not game terms. The physical stats in the game do not change unless you take a physical skill, which frankly, almost everyone takes all that they possibly can during character creation. I know that there are some that prefer the skill characters rather than the combat oriented ones, but because of the dangers in the game, it is not feasible to go without at least a few during creation. What I said was to point out that the more you use your muscles in real life, the stronger you become. Granted, over the years you do lose some of your muscle mass and your physical strength, but most players have characters between the ages of 18 and 30, as close to peak as you can get. The aging process is a distant thought for these types of characters. Even older people can gain strength by using the muscles that they have regularly. My own grandfather was a prime example of that fact. The reason old people lose their strength is because of inactivity, not usually the case in games like this, so even if a player were playing an older character, they should still be able to gain physical stats through use of the related muscles.

[Damian Magecraft]

All physical stats can be increased simply by doing regular activity.

Here you refute your own argument that characters do not get tougher
In this instance, I was speaking in literal terms, not game terms. The physical stats in the game do not change unless you take a physical skill, which frankly, almost everyone takes all that they possibly can during character creation. I know that there are some that prefer the skill characters rather than the combat oriented ones, but because of the dangers in the game, it is not feasible to go without at least a few during creation. What I said was to point out that the more you use your muscles in real life, the stronger you become. Granted, over the years you do lose some of your muscle mass and your physical strength, but most players have characters between the ages of 18 and 30, as close to peak as you can get. The aging process is a distant thought for these types of characters. Even older people can gain strength by using the muscles that they have regularly. My own grandfather was a prime example of that fact. The reason old people lose their strength is because of inactivity, not usually the case in games like this, so even if a player were playing an older character, they should still be able to gain physical stats through use of the related muscles.

Sounds like you expect Palladium to play like a different system...
But seeing as how both systems have evolved over the years I am puzzled why you would think that way.

[Incriptus]

>Edit: Another point is the focus of the combat system. The grand majority of the bonuses deliberately slant combat to melee range. I have to disagree with the system that a guy with PP 10 and a guy with PP 25 and WP Pistol of the same level have the exact same chance of hitting their target. This disparity really hurts trying to build a character that specializes in ranged combat, without playing something along the lines of a Gunslinger. Even then, the bonuses really don't add up properly.

Actually I've always been convinced it was the other way around. Your enemies get an auto-parry and it's so much easier to get parry bonuses than strike bonuses. While on the other hand, depending in how hardcore you are about the dodging rules, shotting someone is so much easier.

[Kagashi]

The game can be severely unbalanced with a simple item.

So can reality. A group of Taliban and a group of US Soldiers in a firefight can be quite balanced. Throw in a single Apache for close air support...and well...pretty one sided victory. I dont see how this is an issue in Rifts. When the group is presented with a situation where they are out gunned/manned/armored, its more fun to me on how to deal with the disadvantage. If everything was balanced, why even have different types of guns? Why have different OCCs? Personally, I enjoy playing less powerful characters on occasion to mix it up.

I believe that the leveling system is severely messed up.

Very true. XP awarded is fairly static according to the suggested XP chart in most of the core PB books, yet XP required per level raises significantly between one level and the next. I have never seen a player reach level 15 in any campaign. And on Explorers Unlimited, which as been running since 2006, many of the older characters are still hovering around level 9, after starting at level 3...six years ago. Perhaps the required XP per level should remain static, instead of increasing in between levels.

First off, why do only your skills change? Why do you not get stronger or tougher?

You do. Not only do your skills change, you are given the opportunity to get new skills as well. Most likely, you are able to pick physical skills, which in turn make you stronger (PS increase) and tougher (SDC increase). Plus, you do get tougher every level, 1D6 HP tougher. Granted, thats not much when dealing with MDC, but you still get tougher. Im not really seeing the issue here.

How about gaining a little ME because you character has, most of the time, dealt with quite a bit? I completely understand why IQ and PB don't go up, but what about the rest of it? ME and MA can be increased by dealing with stress and learning how to deal with people better.

In Rifter 19, but there is an excellent article on Mental Skills which when you apply the above from the Physical skills, your character gets more mentally adept. I highly recommend that Rifter issue.

All physical stats can be increased simply by doing regular activity.

Thats exactly what is happening, when you gain XP, your character can get a new skill, which can be a physical skill, which increases the physical attributes of your character. Some skills, like Hand to Hand skills, increase over time as you level. You may want to allow certain physical skills to be taken more than once. Rifter 7 also offers some new skills (some of which were rolled into RUE) to offer more diversity.

When it comes to combat, I disagree, first of all, with the attacks per melee. How can someone who is trained in combat only throw a punch 7 or 8 times in 15 seconds? I know people in karate and other forms of martial arts that can do double that.

While I agree and sympathize with the logic when based on reality, just remember that the bad guys are limited as well. In the end, it evens out. If you have 6 APM and your opponent has 5 under the main rules, but you double them under modified rules, you are still at a 6:5 ratio anyway.

And why is ranged combat limited to the same number of attacks as regular hand to hand? I can personally empty a 15 round clip from a pistol in 3 or 4 seconds, not extremely accurate granted, but still, only a couple more seconds for better accuracy. And fully automatic weapons can be emptied just as quickly, if not more so. I know the sustained firing reduces accuracy in this instance also, but automatic weapons are made for crowd control or putting enough bullets in someone to make sure they don't get up.

Yeah, I dont get that either. The only thing I can think of is to keep the combat system simple when only having to keep up with one set of attacks per melee. Rifter 11 has Ranged Attacks Per Melee rules...but I didnt care for them and found it easier to just run with the main rules.

There are also issues with the weapons. Almost every technological weapon I have seen has been WAY underpowered. I will use an sdc weapon as an example. A .357, arguably one of the strongest hand guns on the market, only does 4d6. For a man of arms, it could take 3 shots before the person has to worry too much. In actuality, a .357 would most likely kill in 1 shot, soldier or not. MDC weapons are not much better as far as the damage output goes. I can see the idea behind lowering the damage, avoiding 1 shot kills, but there are ways to do that without taking away the damage the gun does or changing how much health the character has; armor. Armor is available, which is all well and good, but the weapons are the problem I am having.

Its not hand held weapons I have in issue with, its vehicular and robot weapons I have an issue with. I just dont see how the Triax Devistators main rifle does less damage than a hand held JA-12 and only has 2000 ft range over the hand held weapon. I double all damage of tanks and robots, double MDC of robots, tripple MDC of tanks, and HALF the black market cost of all robots and vehicles to compensate. That makes it more realistic for people to opt to buy a robot instead of 3 power armors for a fraction of the cost.

As far as magic is concerned, it should be stronger. The magic in rifts is made to change the flow of combat with carpet of adhesion or wind rush or some similar spell. All well and good, but what about damaging? The damaging spells wouldn't take down a lightly armored fly, much less a person in full armor. It would take an army of mages to take down one of almost any monster in the mega-verse. The most damaging spell that I have seen so far is call lightning and it does a d6 per level. The game allows players to start at level 4...that's only 4d6 total. That's the same as an MDC version of a .357, not much if you ask me.

Eh, I'm personally okay with it. A mage walking into a town where you have to check your weapons at the gate has an extreme advantage, regardless of how little MDC you may deal. Plus, over time, magic has a much longer lasting advantage over tech. That laser pistol eventually runs out of ammo, and that armor eventually runs out of MDC. Armor can be repaired and eclips can be recharged...but for a price. But that mage can fight in the day, then just...sleep...and his MDC and "ammo" is completely replenished...for free. Plus there is nothing saying that mage cant take WP Handgun and even the odds with his own pistol.

Hope my perspective helps.

[wyrmraker]

>Edit: Another point is the focus of the combat system. The grand majority of the bonuses deliberately slant combat to melee range. I have to disagree with the system that a guy with PP 10 and a guy with PP 25 and WP Pistol of the same level have the exact same chance of hitting their target. This disparity really hurts trying to build a character that specializes in ranged combat, without playing something along the lines of a Gunslinger. Even then, the bonuses really don't add up properly.

Actually I've always been convinced it was the other way around. Your enemies get an auto-parry and it's so much easier to get parry bonuses than strike bonuses. While on the other hand, depending in how hardcore you are about the dodging rules, shotting someone is so much easier.

I can see your point about the listed penalties for dodging bullets and beams (seriously, dodging a laser?)
But I still maintain my point about Physical Prowess and Modern Weapon Proficiencies.

[Blue_Lion]

Sitting here in my chair, I just threw 40 chain punches in 6 seconds and I wasn't even really trying. That's 100 attacks per melee.

Now chain punching is a rather extreme example, but it does demonstrate that either the melee round is too long or the number of attacks per melee is too small.

I totally agree that attacks per melee is bunk as it's currently implemented. When starting with a new group, I set the pace at one attack per second and adjust from there based on the type of attack.

--flatline

As someone who has had experience in competitive fighting (Limited to Taekwondo but mostly Mixed Martial Arts and self-defense training from the Reserves) I can tell you right now that there is no way in hell that you can count on landing that many attacks in a stand up fight in 15 seconds. People move, you have to spend time compensating, its easy to think "I can attack faster!" but I can assure you that there is a difference between "successful" attack and just throwing a punch at someone. Throw the wrong punch, have your balance off just a little, and that could well be the end of you.

There should be some Flurry rules for melee, though, akin to burst-firing.

Actualy some of the martial arts in ninjas and super spies have a kind of flury.
but truth be told if some one is blocking right and you throw a flurry of chain punches you are more likely to break your own hand than there noise.

[Blue_Lion]

Things I see that need to be updated or are all kerfuffled:
Core Combat Mechanics
Character Advancement
"Gosh Ma', a whole D6 to my HP and +5% to all my skills? That's just dandy". Like the OP said, I think level advancement pretty much sucks for most Men at Arms and non-adventuring classes. I attribute this to the fact that if they have any special abilities, they are often all available at first level. However, characters like cyber-knights that have a variety of abilities not available until later levels offer more incentive to reach higher levels and to change your play style when you get that new ability. Now I know that skills make up a lot of a level up but theres a few issues with this: 1) Some people just simply don't need any more skills. 2) Some OCCs get pretty poor skills over levels (OCCs from Dead Reign that get no primary come to mind) 3) Often, if you picked up a new skill it is usually not nearly as useful as a mage getting a new spell or a cyber-knight finally getting auto-dodge against multiple opponents. (On a side note: where is ma multi-classing? NPCs can do it! grumble grumble)

So wait a Pluss 1 on a D20 per level to skills is not good enofe, and even the highest base HP per level from D&D is only what D12. You do start with more at level 1 but you make it sound like compared to other games you gain a pitence per level.

What skill gives you +1 on a die roll per level of the skill?

But to your post, it pretty much IS pittance. Because using your example of D&D, sure there is HP of only a D6 or a D8 per level. But on the other hand average longsword does either a D8 or D10 (can't really remember). While in rifts you get 2D10+12 SDC at first level with no guaranteed increase and your PE plus a D6 per level, and you go up against swords that do, what? 3 or 4D6. How much longer is that extra D6 really gonna get you? And thats not even mentioning the fact that in Rifts, you're probably gonna get blown in half by an MD weapon regardless of your SDC or HP.

if you rollded a skill on a D20 each side has a 5% chance to land. I was mearly pointing out that the progression per level is not that difrent from one of the big names in gaming. And unlike some other sytstems if you are attacked by a sword that does 30D6 you can choce to parry without spending a action. How many systems have armor that takes HP damage for you instead of you, and with SDC there are ARs that change the target number. But lets face it part of rifts is that the weapons are so over powered that if you are a squishy you will probaly not last. But the system is made not just for Rifts but all PB games. So while in rifts you may not last agaist MDC weapons in another setting they don't matter. By the way was some one earler not complaining that the damage on weapons are not killing people as fast they whould in real life. So you are basicaly arguing agaist the system with to oposing views. Meaning that some complaints might just be personal views and not the fault of the system.

Now I am not saying the system is perfect but it is far from unplayble/broken. It whould be nice if say the came up with a more ogonised layout of books to help with finding rules and such but hey this game has been around a long time and is still rolling allong something that not all the D20 clones can say.

[flatline]

Actually some of the martial arts in ninjas and super spies have a kind of flurry.
but truth be told if some one is blocking right and you throw a flurry of chain punches you are more likely to break your own hand than there noise.

I don't know what you guys think a chain punch is. It's not a jab. It's not a feint. Both jabs and feints occur at greater distance. Chain punches occur within critical distance where your opponent does not have the time to "block right".

Chain punching is the signature move of yim wing chun, so it seems likely that youtube would have lots of videos of it...

...and here's the first hit. Nice and short:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClORguy66iA

They do not do a good job of showing how to advance through your opponent while chain punching, but it's still a decent video. Interesting to see how the two muscle-bound americans (just guessing from the way they speak) seem to have trouble with the idea of hanging elbows. Probably has something to do with how rigid they are. For comparison, look how relaxed the wing chun practitioner appears.

--flatline

[eliakon]

Actually some of the martial arts in ninjas and super spies have a kind of flurry.
but truth be told if some one is blocking right and you throw a flurry of chain punches you are more likely to break your own hand than there noise.

I don't know what you guys think a chain punch is. It's not a jab. It's not a feint. Both jabs and feints occur at greater distance. Chain punches occur within critical distance where your opponent does not have the time to "block right".

Chain punching is the signature move of yim wing chun, so it seems likely that youtube would have lots of videos of it...

...and here's the first hit. Nice and short:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClORguy66iA

They do not do a good job of showing how to advance through your opponent while chain punching, but it's still a decent video. Interesting to see how the two muscle-bound americans (just guessing from the way they speak) seem to have trouble with the idea of hanging elbows. Probably has something to do with how rigid they are. For comparison, look how relaxed the wing chun practitioner appears.

--flatline

the question still remains. Is that (in game terms) several attacks, or sublimated into what is in effect 'a long action' there comes a point in any game where you have to abandon point for point replication of every variety of real life option, variation, and combination and say 'well this will be close enough'

[flatline]

Things I see that need to be updated or are all kerfuffled:
Core Combat Mechanics
Character Advancement
"Gosh Ma', a whole D6 to my HP and +5% to all my skills? That's just dandy". Like the OP said, I think level advancement pretty much sucks for most Men at Arms and non-adventuring classes. I attribute this to the fact that if they have any special abilities, they are often all available at first level. However, characters like cyber-knights that have a variety of abilities not available until later levels offer more incentive to reach higher levels and to change your play style when you get that new ability. Now I know that skills make up a lot of a level up but theres a few issues with this: 1) Some people just simply don't need any more skills. 2) Some OCCs get pretty poor skills over levels (OCCs from Dead Reign that get no primary come to mind) 3) Often, if you picked up a new skill it is usually not nearly as useful as a mage getting a new spell or a cyber-knight finally getting auto-dodge against multiple opponents. (On a side note: where is ma multi-classing? NPCs can do it! grumble grumble)

So wait a Pluss 1 on a D20 per level to skills is not good enofe, and even the highest base HP per level from D&D is only what D12. You do start with more at level 1 but you make it sound like compared to other games you gain a pitence per level.

What skill gives you +1 on a die roll per level of the skill?

But to your post, it pretty much IS pittance. Because using your example of D&D, sure there is HP of only a D6 or a D8 per level. But on the other hand average longsword does either a D8 or D10 (can't really remember). While in rifts you get 2D10+12 SDC at first level with no guaranteed increase and your PE plus a D6 per level, and you go up against swords that do, what? 3 or 4D6. How much longer is that extra D6 really gonna get you? And thats not even mentioning the fact that in Rifts, you're probably gonna get blown in half by an MD weapon regardless of your SDC or HP.

if you rollded a skill on a D20 each side has a 5% chance to land. I was mearly pointing out that the progression per level is not that difrent from one of the big names in gaming. And unlike some other sytstems if you are attacked by a sword that does 30D6 you can choce to parry without spending a action. How many systems have armor that takes HP damage for you instead of you, and with SDC there are ARs that change the target number. But lets face it part of rifts is that the weapons are so over powered that if you are a squishy you will probaly not last. But the system is made not just for Rifts but all PB games. So while in rifts you may not last agaist MDC weapons in another setting they don't matter. By the way was some one earler not complaining that the damage on weapons are not killing people as fast they whould in real life. So you are basicaly arguing agaist the system with to oposing views. Meaning that some complaints might just be personal views and not the fault of the system.

Now I am not saying the system is perfect but it is far from unplayble/broken. It whould be nice if say the came up with a more ogonised layout of books to help with finding rules and such but hey this game has been around a long time and is still rolling allong something that not all the D20 clones can say.

I understand what you're saying and I agree that the system is far from unplayable. Now unlike OP I'm not too broken open about how much damage the gun does in game versus real life. My point is that for most of the base classes, leveling up is pretty empty especially compared to the massive amount of xp required for later levels.

Then instead of using experience points to raise character levels, give your players a way to spend their experience points on individual skills, attributes, abilities, etc. Mages would still want to level up to get improved spell effects (unless you let them invest points in individual spells), but for non-mages who don't benefit from level at all, they may never get past level 1 since they'll be spending their points as they get them.

Edit: now that I think about it, you should probably scale the prices such that it's worth even non-mages to get to at least level 3, maybe even level 5 or 6 before they start to focus on individual skills. Otherwise, they'll max out individual skills to fast.

--flatline

[Blue_Lion]

Sitting here in my chair, I just threw 40 chain punches in 6 seconds and I wasn't even really trying. That's 100 attacks per melee.

Now chain punching is a rather extreme example, but it does demonstrate that either the melee round is too long or the number of attacks per melee is too small.

I totally agree that attacks per melee is bunk as it's currently implemented. When starting with a new group, I set the pace at one attack per second and adjust from there based on the type of attack.

--flatline

As someone who has had experience in competitive fighting (Limited to Taekwondo but mostly Mixed Martial Arts and self-defense training from the Reserves) I can tell you right now that there is no way in hell that you can count on landing that many attacks in a stand up fight in 15 seconds. People move, you have to spend time compensating, its easy to think "I can attack faster!" but I can assure you that there is a difference between "successful" attack and just throwing a punch at someone. Throw the wrong punch, have your balance off just a little, and that could well be the end of you.

Not to mention the attacks in all likely hood would be of the no damage variety. Martial Arts is about more than just how "fast" you punch/kick.
Those punches/kicks have to be effective.
And that is what the system takes into account.

Fighting most my life on the streets I can say for a fact that I can land more hits then five hits in 15 seconds, but I have no problem with attacks per round. I do a little when it comes to firing a guns as I can take aim and hit a moving target with all 8 rounds from a .45 in WAY less then 15 seconds, but again my opinion.

Landing 5 hits whould be a beginer, I looked up stats on boxing training and UFC. Read above for that.
by .45 you mean pistole most pistol ranges are realy close and have shorter time on exposer at the range. Most pistole ranges I have ran at lest 2 firers missed targets because the shot befor the target is up and locked. You will find at greater range the opiset is true, it takes about 5-8 second to hit a 300m target while targets at less than 50M can be hit in under 3 seconds.

Also whould you consider yourself a green shooter lvl 1 or a some what expernced around level 4 or highly expernced lvl 8+? Do you not think that whould make a difrence. With you beeing able to hit a moving target with 8 rounds in a row under 15 seconds I whould think you might be clasifed as a highly expernced shooter. A green shooter whould only hit it 1-4 times while a skilled one around 6 and a higly expernced one all 8.

[Blue_Lion]

Then instead of using experience points to raise character levels, give your players a way to spend their experience points on individual skills, attributes, abilities, etc. Mages would still want to level up to get improved spell effects (unless you let them invest points in individual spells), but for non-mages who don't benefit from level at all, they may never get past level 1 since they'll be spending their points as they get them.

Edit: now that I think about it, you should probably scale the prices such that it's worth even non-mages to get to at least level 3, maybe even level 5 or 6 before they start to focus on individual skills. Otherwise, they'll max out individual skills to fast.

--flatline

Sounds kinda like the Shadow run system cept they do not have class levels, that system has its draw backs as well.

[Blue_Lion]

most my life on the streets I can say for a fact that I can land more hits then five hits in 15 seconds, but I have no problem with attacks per round. I do a little when it comes to firing a guns as I can take aim and hit a moving target with all 8 rounds from a .45 in WAY less then 15 seconds, but again my opinion.

Landing 5 hits whould be a beginer, I looked up stats on boxing training and UFC. Read above for that.
by .45 you mean pistole most pistol ranges are realy close and have shorter time on exposer at the range. Most pistole ranges I have ran at lest 2 firers missed targets because the shot befor the target is up and locked. You will find at greater range the opiset is true, it takes about 5-8 second to hit a 300m target while targets at less than 50M can be hit in under 3 seconds.

Also whould you consider yourself a green shooter lvl 1 or a some what expernced around level 4 or highly expernced lvl 8+? Do you not think that whould make a difrence. With you beeing able to hit a moving target with 8 rounds in a row under 15 seconds I whould think you might be clasifed as a highly expernced shooter. A green shooter whould only hit it 1-4 times while a skilled one around 6 and a higly expernced one all 8.

Point taken, but in context of the system a trained solider should be able to do what I do with no trouble. Again though this is my opinion and it is as shown not shared I have no problem with the APR system I may not agree but I have never needed to change it.

You joking right half the people in the army barly qualify. I wish it where not so but lots of people in the military do not upkeep weapon skills, most whould be only as effective as level 1 charters in a fight. Now Combat arms does train and upkeep there weapons and have some highly skilled but beeing that is not true of all soldiers. Even the combat experts when the soldier first gets sent to the unit after beeing trained for what 4 months with less than 2 weeks dedicated to weapon use, they whould be green/lvl 1.

Personaly i think attaching attacks per round to HtH is silly as it has no barring on actual gun use. But they had to use something. Persoanly i whould probaly whould think a some sort of general combat expertise that is teared whould work make more sense. So you whould have No combat sense, basic combat sense, expert combat sense to councised witht he attacks from untraind hand to hand, basic hand to hand, expert hand to hand and martial arts. Maybe throw in some bonuses per level. Then have hand to hand just be a fighting style that gives a bonus per level to hand hand.

[BloodAnjiel]

The game can be severely unbalanced with a simple item.

So can reality. A group of Taliban and a group of US Soldiers in a firefight can be quite balanced. Throw in a single Apache for close air support...and well...pretty one sided victory. I dont see how this is an issue in Rifts. When the group is presented with a situation where they are out gunned/manned/armored, its more fun to me on how to deal with the disadvantage. If everything was balanced, why even have different types of guns? Why have different OCCs? Personally, I enjoy playing less powerful characters on occasion to mix it up.

In the instance you mentioned, with the Apache, this can be rebalanced with a simple RPG. I am actually talking about simple items, like the phase shield or certain talismans that can make impossible to be seen in any way shape or form with invisibility superior, aura of death, mask aura and a few other stealth related spells, or an ability to go intangible at will negating ALL types of damage except magic or psionics, which as I mentioned is severely broken and limited when it comes to dealing damage. The phase shield can be rebalanced simply by getting in close or with magic, I understand that, but neither forms of damage are enough really. The talisman cannot be rebalanced. A negate magic spell has to be directed and if the person cannot see what he's directing it at, then it cannot be hit except by an outrageously lucky shot. The intangibility cannot be rebalanced because there is no real way to hold the person that just ghosted on you. These are the types of things I am refering to that can unbalance the game entirely with no hope of re-balancing without some outlandish circumstance.

First off, why do only your skills change? Why do you not get stronger or tougher?

You do. Not only do your skills change, you are given the opportunity to get new skills as well. Most likely, you are able to pick physical skills, which in turn make you stronger (PS increase) and tougher (SDC increase). Plus, you do get tougher every level, 1D6 HP tougher. Granted, thats not much when dealing with MDC, but you still get tougher. Im not really seeing the issue here.

I feel I need to clarify what I said. When I was talking about getting tougher, I wasn't meaning hp, sdc, or mdc, I was actually referring to the PE attribute. The PE attribute dictates how long you can run at top speed and how long you can carry your maximum limit. By conditioning and constantly using said attribute, you do develop the ability to run longer and carry things farther. This is what I mean by tougher. Stronger also refers to the PS, obviously, but I'm not talking about beefing it up with body building or wrestling or some other physical skill you can gain at a later time, I'm talking about just using your muscles as you go. You do get stronger by this method, even without "working out"

[Blue_Lion]

The game can be severely unbalanced with a simple item.

So can reality. A group of Taliban and a group of US Soldiers in a firefight can be quite balanced. Throw in a single Apache for close air support...and well...pretty one sided victory. I dont see how this is an issue in Rifts. When the group is presented with a situation where they are out gunned/manned/armored, its more fun to me on how to deal with the disadvantage. If everything was balanced, why even have different types of guns? Why have different OCCs? Personally, I enjoy playing less powerful characters on occasion to mix it up.

In the instance you mentioned, with the Apache, this can be rebalanced with a simple RPG. I am actually talking about simple items, like the phase shield or certain talismans that can make impossible to be seen in any way shape or form with invisibility superior, aura of death, mask aura and a few other stealth related spells, or an ability to go intangible at will negating ALL types of damage except magic or psionics, which as I mentioned is severely broken and limited when it comes to dealing damage. The phase shield can be rebalanced simply by getting in close or with magic, I understand that, but neither forms of damage are enough really. The talisman cannot be rebalanced. A negate magic spell has to be directed and if the person cannot see what he's directing it at, then it cannot be hit except by an outrageously lucky shot. The intangibility cannot be rebalanced because there is no real way to hold the person that just ghosted on you. These are the types of things I am refering to that can unbalance the game entirely with no hope of re-balancing without some outlandish circumstance.

First off, why do only your skills change? Why do you not get stronger or tougher?

You do. Not only do your skills change, you are given the opportunity to get new skills as well. Most likely, you are able to pick physical skills, which in turn make you stronger (PS increase) and tougher (SDC increase). Plus, you do get tougher every level, 1D6 HP tougher. Granted, thats not much when dealing with MDC, but you still get tougher. Im not really seeing the issue here.

I feel I need to clarify what I said. When I was talking about getting tougher, I wasn't meaning hp, sdc, or mdc, I was actually referring to the PE attribute. The PE attribute dictates how long you can run at top speed and how long you can carry your maximum limit. By conditioning and constantly using said attribute, you do develop the ability to run longer and carry things farther. This is what I mean by tougher. Stronger also refers to the PS, obviously, but I'm not talking about beefing it up with body building or wrestling or some other physical skill you can gain at a later time, I'm talking about just using your muscles as you go. You do get stronger by this method, even without "working out"

Wait riding around in gaint robot all day or on a hover cycle, or jet pack increases PE? I am sorry but nornaly there is not much of what I whould consider working your boady as you go in rifts travel.
Pluss the method you are talking about only realy works if you are out of shape to begine with as your boady reaches a platoe and it becames less effective. If some one is a weight lifter, trained runner, boxer, wrestler what is he going to get out of normal every day activity that he does not get from practicing his skills? I whould say nothing.

[flatline]

Rate of fire really should be more dependent on the weapon in use.

For instance, I can empty my glock 17 into a fist sized group in about 15 seconds faster than one shot per second) but on a good day, I can hit 3 sporting clays with my 12-guage in about 1 second.

I consider myself more practiced with the shotgun than the glock, but I don't think I could ever get back on target as fast with the glock as with the shotgun because the glock moves so much more when firing (I am, of course, ignoring the option of double-tapping since I am unlikely to ever seek instruction on that technique).

Similarly, a saber would be able to attack much more quickly than a maul or large axe (this would be dependent on strength, of course).

Just having a generic attacks per melee that ignores all these subtleties is, well, unbelievable.

--flatline