Perpsective on Air Travel

[azazel1024]

But as far as career choice goes, how many other careers can you think of where ambitious characters can snag millions of credits in equipment in a single day's work?

--flatline

Yep. Even at a 10% return (the standard rate of return in the original Rifts book, i didnt look to see if it was still in the RUE book) if you manage to capture a single Mark V APC mostly intact, you've made a couple million in an afternoon.

With the right setup, it wouldn't even be hard to accomplish - combination of overwhelming firepower on the infantry, boxing the vehicle in with hazards/traps, and an order to surrender or be blown to smithereens and they'd probably surrender at the promise of letting them go in their civvies while you drove off in the Mark V with their gear.

But you also have to ensure that your group is powerful enough to manage that. Also...don't bet on that. Plenty of people would NOT surrender even if presented with a no-win scenario. Then you might be lucky to get some salvage and unless REALLY overwhelming, they just might take out a few of you in the process. Banditry is a very dangerous job and considering the various values of things, it doesn't take much fighting back to completely wipe out any possible financial gains in what you'd capture (ignoring you possibly dying as well).

Sure, it is going to happen, but it is going to be difficult for a relatively large group to form (takes a lot of financial resources plus a pretty strong leader to both recruit them all and keep them operating together).

[azazel1024]

A final point (For now at least). Ya'll can keep coming up with reasons why air travel would NEVER EVER EVER happen and I can keep coming up with reasons why it would/could. I haven't (and I am not trying to be pig headed) seen any compelling arguments from anyone who is "anti-air travel" about why air travel is significantly more dangerous than ground travel (keep in mind how much cheaper and easier it is to raid ground based vehicles, convoys, just individuals on foot, etc).

Yes, there are certain negatives to flying places. There are also a number of positives.

There are a LOT of air vehicles stated out in the various books, but a paucity of commercial air vehicles stated out. Guess what else there is? Not a whole heck of a lot of ground commercial/civilian vehicles either. Some, sure, but more by way of flavor text almost for a lot of it. Civy stuff, in any form, is generally unsexy.

What is better, a section on 30 cool military vehicles? Or a section on 30 civilian transports? I know what I am more interested in. Looking at a enough of the books it is obvious there is at least SOME civilian air transport and we know a fair amount of military air transport.

Frankly I think the biggest reasons there isn't more listed in the books are 3 fold
1) Being able to travel halfway across the continent in a matter of hours just isn't "fun", at least so says KS. Therefore, not talked about a lot or a lot of equipment for it (feel more post apocalyptic, but at this point, a lot of Rifts NA is not really post apocalyptic anymore)
2) Civie stuff isn't as sexy, so you don't see much of it
3) KS (and others?) basic misunderstand or lack of knowledge of a lot of technical things. We see it a lot in descriptions of things, stuff that is lacking, how much damage things do or can soak up (and it isn't purely for game balance), etc.

I doubt very much KS at least has much knowledge of aeronautics or civilian and military planes, combat, weapons, etc.

PS I do just have to say, can raid airfields??? Really? I say it that way, because I don't disagree, but that is about as easy as raiding a town (and maybe harder depending on the defenses). ANY fixed position thing can be raided. I doubt most airfields, at least that do much business, are just plump little cherries waiting to be picked. I'd damned well EXPECT them to be fortified to some degree, armed guards, fences, bunkers, etc. Might not be a full on military camp, but raiding an airfield with a platoon or two of security troops, some bunkers, a few suits of PA, maybe a tank or two or robot vehicle, etc, is not an easy thing. Possibly more dangerous that attempting to intercept or force down the flight they were going after to begin with. Airfields aren't placed in the middle of nowhere (generally). They are going to be on/adjascent to a military base, part of a town, city, etc.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

for those using the pecos empire as their example bandits... ok, that's nice and all, but uhhh... that's basically a nation. it's not quite the same thing. you avoid the area where they reign supreme (or pay them off), and you have no problems with them.

It says pretty explicitly that they (the Pecos Bandits) regularly raid as far north as the canadian border and all the way up into the magic zone.

I also stand by my statement that the number of heavy-lift air transports capable of moving any worthwhile amount of cargo that have service ceilings above 10,000ft can be counted on two hands. The number that can get to Mach 1 (much less go faster) is even lower.

ANY heavy lift aircraft are going to be capable of exceeding 10,000ft. If you are bothering with the expense of flying stuff, any cargo is worthwhile. You aren't going to regularly be carrying tanks in your airplane. Air transportation is for relatively valuable things, like people, weapons, medicine, magic, money, precious metals/jewels, time sensitive things, mail, maybe expensive equipment.

Look at Alaska, get much beyond the couple of major cities and almost EVERYTHING is carried on a bush/float plane or the occasional boat. They certainly manage worthwhile cargos to support a fairly large populace (tens of thousands of people in total support by bush flights).

At least looking at today, there are a couple of thousands C-130s worldwide. There are at least that many 707 and 727s in operation. Probably more than that light to medium business jets and heavier lift twin turbo prop planes.

Not a stretch of the imagination (well, mine) to see most city states and kingdoms having at least a dozen or so planes capable of at least 2,000lbs of cargo capacity or 12 passengers and airspeeds over 250mph and ceilings over 20,000ft (basically ANY airplane that is either jet powered in some manner or has a turbocharged reciprocating engine and a pressurized cabin (most planes have some kind of pressurized cabin) have operating ceilings over 20,000ft). Bigger ones are going to have more than that, combined with maybe a few military jobs (gunships and/or fighters/attack planes old or new ones) and a large number of lighter planes and some helicopters and lots of hovercraft.

We're not looking at the modern world, which has seemingly escaped your notice at every turn.

Those vehicles dont exist in Rifts Earth.

In Rifts Earth, heavy lift air transport capable of a high flight ceiling and speedy travel is nearly nonexistent.*

*edit: missed your comment about a company of mercs that run air travel in Merc Ops (which i have only skimmed). I think this helps my point rather than yours - it is so rare, that there is a highly lucrative mercenary company that specializes in it and charge exorbitant fees. Honestly, that backs up the claim that air travel is risky more than it disproves it.

[flatline]

Just for the record, I am totally pro air travel in the Rifts Earth setting.

I think the pros totally outweigh the cons when compared to ground travel for some purposes.

--flatline

[kaid]

for those using the pecos empire as their example bandits... ok, that's nice and all, but uhhh... that's basically a nation. it's not quite the same thing. you avoid the area where they reign supreme (or pay them off), and you have no problems with them.

It says pretty explicitly that they (the Pecos Bandits) regularly raid as far north as the canadian border and all the way up into the magic zone.

I also stand by my statement that the number of heavy-lift air transports capable of moving any worthwhile amount of cargo that have service ceilings above 10,000ft can be counted on two hands. The number that can get to Mach 1 (much less go faster) is even lower.

Then you also have to look at which heavy lift transports are capable of vtol landing and which need an actual landing strip. Most of the VTOL's are the ones with the limited ceilings so even for the few that can fly high enough to be out of the major threat zones range wise have the problem of vulnerable landing spots. I don't care how high and fast you fly if bandits find where you are landing your expensive plane with cargo could very easily become some bandits expensive plane/cargo. Land routes have the bonus of not having to follow any predictable path/predictable destination.

[azazel1024]

for those using the pecos empire as their example bandits... ok, that's nice and all, but uhhh... that's basically a nation. it's not quite the same thing. you avoid the area where they reign supreme (or pay them off), and you have no problems with them.

It says pretty explicitly that they (the Pecos Bandits) regularly raid as far north as the canadian border and all the way up into the magic zone.

I also stand by my statement that the number of heavy-lift air transports capable of moving any worthwhile amount of cargo that have service ceilings above 10,000ft can be counted on two hands. The number that can get to Mach 1 (much less go faster) is even lower.

Then you also have to look at which heavy lift transports are capable of vtol landing and which need an actual landing strip. Most of the VTOL's are the ones with the limited ceilings so even for the few that can fly high enough to be out of the major threat zones range wise have the problem of vulnerable landing spots. I don't care how high and fast you fly if bandits find where you are landing your expensive plane with cargo could very easily become some bandits expensive plane/cargo. Land routes have the bonus of not having to follow any predictable path/predictable destination.

That goes qunituple for air routes. No reason you have to fly a least time route somewhere. Overland you are somewhat limited in the routes you can take. With hover vehicles the number of routes is significantly higher, but still more limited than planes (possibly limited by water obstacles, certainly limited by old growth forests in some places and mountains).

Keep in mind, a lot of hover vehicles are limited to less than 100ft in altitude. Not all of them, but a fair number. There are a lot of mature forests with tree canopies that extend above 100ft in height. Some really old growth forests or larger specimins that can hit 120-150ft and things like redwoods and I am sure plenty of Rifted in imports can hit 200-300ft in height (or higher). So there probably are a number of forests you CANNOT fly over in a hover vehicle. Flying through is limited in the same way as driving would be, other than you don't need an actual road, but a path wide enough to get through, which also might not exist without a pre-cut path/road.

Just because you know where a plane is going, does not mean you can just sit fat and happy at its destination. So you know that the plane is flying to Kingsdale. Are you going to just outside the airport of a fairly major city state? Then raid the thing?

Oh, damned, turns out the plane was only carrying mail. Guess that heist is a bust. Good thing we only took on the city guard to sieze it. No matter, it was only 400 guys in armor, PA and robots with some scattered magic users in there.

Spot a random plane flying along...even if you can pace it, which you might not be able to do...what are you then going to do? divine using magic where it is going to land? Oh, you might be able to follow it...but you also might follow it right through some unfriendly territory to you, or you might follow it for 400 miles only to find out that it is landing in CS territory, or flying over a major body of water that you can't pass, etc.

I agree completely that SOME level of air banditry will occur. The level some seem to make it out to be though, I doubt it. If air travel is that rare, most people aren't going to care to put in the time and effort to try to specialize in it (slim pickens). If it is safe enough, then the upsides over land transportation mean that it isn't going to be super rare. There is going to be SOME kind of middle ground (likely commonish, but not super cheap and NOT ubiquitous).

The transportation company focuses primarily on things like COMBAT drops and delivering cargos in to/out of very dangerous places. They do NOT specialize in your average milk runs. So I don't see how that supports your case on air travel being rare.

[Icefalcon]

PS I do just have to say, can raid airfields??? Really? I say it that way, because I don't disagree, but that is about as easy as raiding a town (and maybe harder depending on the defenses). ANY fixed position thing can be raided. I doubt most airfields, at least that do much business, are just plump little cherries waiting to be picked. I'd damned well EXPECT them to be fortified to some degree, armed guards, fences, bunkers, etc. Might not be a full on military camp, but raiding an airfield with a platoon or two of security troops, some bunkers, a few suits of PA, maybe a tank or two or robot vehicle, etc, is not an easy thing. Possibly more dangerous that attempting to intercept or force down the flight they were going after to begin with. Airfields aren't placed in the middle of nowhere (generally). They are going to be on/adjascent to a military base, part of a town, city, etc.

Not all airfields are going to be super fortified areas. You keep stating that it would not be difficult for a small community or a wilderness-based company to own a small cargo aircraft. By what you keep stating as possible, it is totally withing the realm of possibility of hitting an airfield. Even a city of 30,000 people is not going to have a sizable enough force to protect both their airport and their city at the same time. On top of that, if the airfield is owned by a business they will not usually be protected by the city forces as much as they are paid security. Depending on the size of the operation (which you keep stating is small) then the number of troops defending the airfield can be minimal.

Another point. If the airfield cannot afford to arm it planes, what makes you think they can arm the airfield? Bunkers, PA's, tanks and robot vehicles are all going to cost more than the whole of the operation (with the exception of the planes themselves) to put in. And yes, there are plenty of airfields in the middle of nowhere. Not all trade takes place city to city. You will have to eventually hit one of those small time strips, even if it for nothing else than to pick up a load of cargo.

[Comrade Corsarius]

PS I do just have to say, can raid airfields??? Really? I say it that way, because I don't disagree, but that is about as easy as raiding a town (and maybe harder depending on the defenses). ANY fixed position thing can be raided. I doubt most airfields, at least that do much business, are just plump little cherries waiting to be picked. I'd damned well EXPECT them to be fortified to some degree, armed guards, fences, bunkers, etc. Might not be a full on military camp, but raiding an airfield with a platoon or two of security troops, some bunkers, a few suits of PA, maybe a tank or two or robot vehicle, etc, is not an easy thing. Possibly more dangerous that attempting to intercept or force down the flight they were going after to begin with. Airfields aren't placed in the middle of nowhere (generally). They are going to be on/adjascent to a military base, part of a town, city, etc.

Not all airfields are going to be super fortified areas. You keep stating that it would not be difficult for a small community or a wilderness-based company to own a small cargo aircraft. By what you keep stating as possible, it is totally withing the realm of possibility of hitting an airfield. Even a city of 30,000 people is not going to have a sizable enough force to protect both their airport and their city at the same time. On top of that, if the airfield is owned by a business they will not usually be protected by the city forces as much as they are paid security. Depending on the size of the operation (which you keep stating is small) then the number of troops defending the airfield can be minimal.

Another point. If the airfield cannot afford to arm it planes, what makes you think they can arm the airfield? Bunkers, PA's, tanks and robot vehicles are all going to cost more than the whole of the operation (with the exception of the planes themselves) to put in. And yes, there are plenty of airfields in the middle of nowhere. Not all trade takes place city to city. You will have to eventually hit one of those small time strips, even if it for nothing else than to pick up a load of cargo.

And if the airfield is small, who's going to hit it anyway?

Intelligence is the most important asset of any operation. If they're running stuff worth zillions, it's worth the risk. If you shoot down everything that's flying, then it's not cost/benefit effective, as you'll be getting nothing but garbage.

A small airfield nearby a small city/town will not be 'hit' so often, due to the fact that the things going in and out are not worth taking so much as the occasional high-value cargo (and you can bet your britches that they'll have the paid security on-call for that particular transport, be it land air or sea).

[azazel1024]

PS I do just have to say, can raid airfields??? Really? I say it that way, because I don't disagree, but that is about as easy as raiding a town (and maybe harder depending on the defenses). ANY fixed position thing can be raided. I doubt most airfields, at least that do much business, are just plump little cherries waiting to be picked. I'd damned well EXPECT them to be fortified to some degree, armed guards, fences, bunkers, etc. Might not be a full on military camp, but raiding an airfield with a platoon or two of security troops, some bunkers, a few suits of PA, maybe a tank or two or robot vehicle, etc, is not an easy thing. Possibly more dangerous that attempting to intercept or force down the flight they were going after to begin with. Airfields aren't placed in the middle of nowhere (generally). They are going to be on/adjascent to a military base, part of a town, city, etc.

Not all airfields are going to be super fortified areas. You keep stating that it would not be difficult for a small community or a wilderness-based company to own a small cargo aircraft. By what you keep stating as possible, it is totally withing the realm of possibility of hitting an airfield. Even a city of 30,000 people is not going to have a sizable enough force to protect both their airport and their city at the same time. On top of that, if the airfield is owned by a business they will not usually be protected by the city forces as much as they are paid security. Depending on the size of the operation (which you keep stating is small) then the number of troops defending the airfield can be minimal.

Another point. If the airfield cannot afford to arm it planes, what makes you think they can arm the airfield? Bunkers, PA's, tanks and robot vehicles are all going to cost more than the whole of the operation (with the exception of the planes themselves) to put in. And yes, there are plenty of airfields in the middle of nowhere. Not all trade takes place city to city. You will have to eventually hit one of those small time strips, even if it for nothing else than to pick up a load of cargo.

And if the airfield is small, who's going to hit it anyway?

Intelligence is the most important asset of any operation. If they're running stuff worth zillions, it's worth the risk. If you shoot down everything that's flying, then it's not cost/benefit effective, as you'll be getting nothing but garbage.

A small airfield nearby a small city/town will not be 'hit' so often, due to the fact that the things going in and out are not worth taking so much as the occasional high-value cargo (and you can bet your britches that they'll have the paid security on-call for that particular transport, be it land air or sea).

Pretty much my thoughts.

[flatline]

Maybe I'm just a dork, but I find this sort of logistics interesting.

Logistics, large or small scale, are fascinating. It's where the rubber meets the road for any serious plan.

--flatline

[Daeglan]

Air travel is likely at a stage in the realm of spaceflight in about 20 years in the future for use. It is possible for a private individual to fly places etc. But it is a luxury only the rich and governments can afford in any kind of scale.

[glitterboy2098]

It's beginning to look like those who want common airplane travel in Rifts are not going to be satisfied with any reason to the contrary.

\actually its more the opposite. those who don't want common air travel in rifts are not going to be satisfied with the in universe and out of universe arguements as to why airtravel is already present and common.

and they are ignoring the canon evidence of common air travel from the merctown, mercops, Arzno, and Seige on Tolkien #6.
those locations have canon civilian airports, and Merctown mentions that regular civilian passenger services operate out of it (meaning there are other similar airports for them to go to). Arzno charges a nominal toll of 15 credits for civilians wanting use the skydocks airport, indicating that they get enough volume of non-AMC air travel to not need high tolls to defer costs. in Mercops GAW sells C-130 heavy lift aircraft, which they wouldn't be selling without a large market in need of them. Tolkien had a 23,000 vehicle airforce, and it is telling that Powered armor falls under their ground forces, indicating these are actual aircraft and TW vehicles.

and so on.

air travel is a canon and integral part of RIFTS, so those arguing it is a rare thing are trying to prove a negative, and struggling against the game setting to do so.

[Gamer]

It's beginning to look like those who want common airplane travel in Rifts are not going to be satisfied with any reason to the contrary.

Really? try reading your books.

MercTown alone has these air travel companies at it's airport.
Air Superiority-
Air North America- excellent track record - offers flights anywhere on the continent within 48 hours.
Magic Carpet Airships- offers flights to Kingsdale, Lazlo and formerly Tolkeen -so air travel is so dangerous they offered flights into what amounted to a war zone-
Air Michigan- offers flights to most cities in the great lakes region, including, New Lazlo and Lazlo.
Fly By Night- operated by a brother-sister team who have two small passenger jets which they charter to any destination on the continent.
Golden Age Airlines -is by far the biggest carrier and provides service to the city-states of Golden Age Weaponsmiths as well as to Fort El Dorado, Newtown, Los Alamos, CS Lone Star and El Paso.

Air travel is so rare and dangerous that there is regular air service to a city INSIDE the Pecos empire.

Here's something interesting: Merctown Pg 29 Private Customers paragraph.

MercTown will also rent small, non-combat aircraft, mainly helicopters and single and twin -engine vessels, for 200 credits an hour or 4,000 credits per day, plus fuel cost and a 20,000 credit security deposit on the aircraft.

Where can you rent a ground vehicle that allows you do go where you want?
air travel is so dangerous you can rent a light unarmed plane to go where you want.
MercTown page 55: Dexter's limousines.
Because ground travel is so safe you can rent a limo to go where you want but it has to be within Merctowns boundries/outskirts.


Too expensive?
Page 98 mercenaires:
GAW retrofitted aircraft cost:
small/medium airplane: $60K-$90K
large airplane: $95k-$120k
Jet aircraft: $120k-$170k
helicopters: $90-$120k

ATV speedster hoverbike:(gas) $98K
Bronco Hover scooter: (gas) $146K
MI3000 hover:(gas) $148K
MI-1010 hover:(gas)$90K
NG220 hover:(gas)$120K
NG230 hover:(gas)$182K
NG400 hover:(gas)$180K
NG480 hover:(gas)$220K
yeah hover bikes are so much cheaper than a light/medium aircraft/helicopter purchased from GAW.
I'd rather buy their helicopters for a courier service than a hover bike, can carry more and go further faster.

Merc Ops pg: 133 GAW-130
Golden Age weaponsmiths has retrofitted and sold HUNDREDS of these vehicles to a variety of users, including merchants, independent kingdoms, shipping companies, mercenary groups, and major corporations.
So air travel is so rare that there are only hundreds of these things flying right now, an unarmed cargo plane, hundreds.
Yeah air travel is just so rare and just too expensive.

Aircraft are not rare, they may not be as prolific in the books as robots and other ground vehicles but there are quite a few to choose from if anyone really bothers to look.
Air travel cannot be as dangerous as ground travel if you can rent unarmed light aircraft to do what you want with it like a Hertz rent a car today.
If ground travel is that much safer where are hordes of ground vehicle rental companies that let you do the same as the aircraft rental?

People want modern facts, -Route Irish- Baghdad, Iraq it was the most dangerous road on the planet, it was safer to fly and for VIPs they did, that ground route just couldn't be made secure enough.
I myself am one of it's casualties, I had to be medevaced after our convoy was ambushed and we hit an IED, we were the second that day that was attacked, and only one of thousands of ambushes along that route.
More people were killed in these type ground ambushes in just Iraq than all the air casualties in both OIF and OEF theaters combined.
Anyone here ever see several 152mm howitzer shells turned IED detonate and launch a 70 ton M1a1 10' in the air?
Result is one mobile killed M1a1, it lost both tracks and several road wheels on each side, took 3 hours to get it loaded on a trailer and hauled off.

You can hide a mine/IED along the route along the ground, in fact anyone can do it, not just anyone can do that with aircraft.
Anyone can ambush a convoy on the ground, there will always be choke points due to terrain, even hovercraft are limited by terrain.
Anyone can ambush the hover bike anywhere along the route, not just anyone can ambush aircraft along it's route.

A courier plane doesn't have to land, they can airdrop the packages and many today do- especially the ones in Alaska and all over the continent of Africa.
A simple bridge or mountain pass becomes a choke point and primary ambush site for ground vehicles, for aircraft they are just a photo op to show your friends after your trip.

I don't see anywhere in any of the books where it says air travel is rare and more dangerous all i see is some forum members trying to force their view as fact.
The actual fact is simple, all travel is as dangerous as each GM needs it to be, be it ground or air.
Or do GMs have to be railroaded today instead of being creative themselves.
Do GMs really have to be told when to make a certain trip dangerous or not, or that every trip doesn't have to be filled with combat.
People are making travelling more dangerous than it really is, not every blade of grass has the villain of the moment behind it ready to pounce.

[flatline]

air travel safe....... with just about every powered armor and decent combat squad having access to missile weapons with the range and speed to catch you, I would think less people would choos to rise up an make themselves a sitting duck for missile and rail gun barage, hence maybe why only full armys with ECM backup and fighter airsupport tend to take to the skies.

What rail gun can shoot you when you're 6+ miles above the earth's surface?

--flatline

[glitterboy2098]

none. and since even the slow aircraft tend to faster than flying PA, and fly much higher, real aircraft would be hard to catch. but now the thread has gone recursive...

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

air travel safe....... with just about every powered armor and decent combat squad having access to missile weapons with the range and speed to catch you, I would think less people would choos to rise up an make themselves a sitting duck for missile and rail gun barage, hence maybe why only full armys with ECM backup and fighter airsupport tend to take to the skies.

What rail gun can shoot you when you're 6+ miles above the earth's surface?

--flatline

How many planes in Rifts Earth have a 30,000ft service ceiling again?

Oh, yeah.

How many of them travel at or near the speed of sound, much less faster?

Oh, yeah.

[flatline]

air travel safe....... with just about every powered armor and decent combat squad having access to missile weapons with the range and speed to catch you, I would think less people would choos to rise up an make themselves a sitting duck for missile and rail gun barage, hence maybe why only full armys with ECM backup and fighter airsupport tend to take to the skies.

What rail gun can shoot you when you're 6+ miles above the earth's surface?

--flatline

How many planes in Rifts Earth have a 30,000ft service ceiling again?

Oh, yeah.

How many of them travel at or near the speed of sound, much less faster?

Oh, yeah.

Besides the boomgun, how many railguns, or any other non-missile weapon, can shoot you at 10,000ft?

What does it matter how fast the planes is flying if they're already out of effective range?

--flatline

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

air travel safe....... with just about every powered armor and decent combat squad having access to missile weapons with the range and speed to catch you, I would think less people would choos to rise up an make themselves a sitting duck for missile and rail gun barage, hence maybe why only full armys with ECM backup and fighter airsupport tend to take to the skies.

What rail gun can shoot you when you're 6+ miles above the earth's surface?

--flatline

How many planes in Rifts Earth have a 30,000ft service ceiling again?

Oh, yeah.

How many of them travel at or near the speed of sound, much less faster?

Oh, yeah.

Besides the boomgun, how many railguns, or any other non-missile weapon, can shoot you at 10,000ft?

What does it matter how fast the planes is flying if they're already out of effective range?

--flatline

Any of them attached to the new SkyCycle, one of the Rocket Cycles, the old SkyCycle (though it only has missiles for something long-range), a SkyKing, a Flying Wing, several of the new choppers, (both IH and CS) a SAMAS (several varieties, from CS to BA) handheld weapon, a Flying Titan handheld weapon...

and that's just the two books i have on my desk right now (RUE/RMB and CS War Campaign), plus a few i remembered (IH choppers). Not sure why we're discounting missiles, though, since it was already shown that a military-grade radar emplacement was less expensive than a laser pistol, and missiles aren't that expensive.

Lets be clear: no on is arguing, that im aware of, that big, high tech powers like the CS and FQ, for instance, dont use air travel to carry heavy cargo. Theyre the ones that have those less-than-a-dozen heavy lift transports capable of supersonic travel at high service ceilings, after all. And they have the military muscle and companion aircraft to fly heavy escorts.

For everyone else, however, it is comparatively risky to fly in large air vehicles and particularly to risk hundreds of millions of credits worth of expensive cargo shipping it in a giant flying target.

I'd even posit that low-altitude (the 1-4000ft that most hovercraft and personal air vehicles like the sky king, sky cycles, etc are capable of) air travel by individuals is relatively safe. Bandits aren't going to bother wasting missiles on some adventurer riding overhead on his Sky King (though they may fire off a few bursts of rail gun fire to try to shoot him down for the giggles and chance that they might salvage a few weapons), but when they see a big fat transport potentially full of a few hundred million....

[flatline]

air travel safe....... with just about every powered armor and decent combat squad having access to missile weapons with the range and speed to catch you, I would think less people would choos to rise up an make themselves a sitting duck for missile and rail gun barage, hence maybe why only full armys with ECM backup and fighter airsupport tend to take to the skies.

What rail gun can shoot you when you're 6+ miles above the earth's surface?

--flatline

How many planes in Rifts Earth have a 30,000ft service ceiling again?

Oh, yeah.

How many of them travel at or near the speed of sound, much less faster?

Oh, yeah.

Besides the boomgun, how many railguns, or any other non-missile weapon, can shoot you at 10,000ft?

What does it matter how fast the planes is flying if they're already out of effective range?

--flatline

Any of them attached to the new SkyCycle, one of the Rocket Cycles, the old SkyCycle (though it only has missiles for something long-range), a SkyKing, a Flying Wing, several of the new choppers, (both IH and CS) a SAMAS (several varieties, from CS to BA) handheld weapon, a Flying Titan handheld weapon...

and that's just the two books i have on my desk right now (RUE/RMB and CS War Campaign), plus a few i remembered (IH choppers). Not sure why we're discounting missiles, though, since it was already shown that a military-grade radar emplacement was less expensive than a laser pistol, and missiles aren't that expensive.

Lets be clear: no on is arguing, that im aware of, that big, high tech powers like the CS and FQ, for instance, dont use air travel to carry heavy cargo. Theyre the ones that have those less-than-a-dozen heavy lift transports capable of supersonic travel at high service ceilings, after all. And they have the military muscle and companion aircraft to fly heavy escorts.

For everyone else, however, it is comparatively risky to fly in large air vehicles and particularly to risk hundreds of millions of credits worth of expensive cargo shipping it in a giant flying target.

I'd even posit that low-altitude (the 1-4000ft that most hovercraft and personal air vehicles like the sky king, sky cycles, etc are capable of) air travel by individuals is relatively safe. Bandits aren't going to bother wasting missiles on some adventurer riding overhead on his Sky King (though they may fire off a few bursts of rail gun fire to try to shoot him down for the giggles and chance that they might salvage a few weapons), but when they see a big fat transport potentially full of a few hundred million....

And you expect me to believe that that big fat transport isn't flying at a reasonable altitude like, say 30k-35k feet where it can get better airspeed, better fuel efficiency, and avoid predators who are limited to lower altitudes?

--flatline

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

And you expect me to believe that that big fat transport isn't flying at a reasonable altitude like, say 30k-35k feet where it can get better airspeed, better fuel efficiency, and avoid predators who are limited to lower altitudes?

--flatline

I expect you to understand that outside of the CS and other major powers, almost no one has a transport capable of flying at 35k feet, and those that do are absurdly rare and brutally expensive.

It isnt rocket surgery, people. This mythical fleet of commonly-available, high-service-ceiling, heavy-life air transports you all seem to believe exists is exactly that:

mythical. it doesn't exist and no part of the canon setting has ever intimated that it does. In fact, the setting regards air travel as dangerous and rare.

[azazel1024]

Except even today with radar aimed artillery, HITTING a plane flying at altittude is a very, very hard thing to acomplish. Look at all of the times the US (or other countries) have flown over hostille targets and the rather low rate of loss. I am not talking about stealth planes.

I'll grant that was AFTER most SAM emplacements/SAM radars were taken out. However, plenty of stuff over Baghdad and other Iraqi cities was still very much active for radar directed guns and a lot of overflights were NOT B-2 or F-117a (especially in the first Gulf war).

It took thousands of artillery rounds to take one down.

So you see bandits hiding EVERYWHERE and with the resources to throw up hundreds to thousands of rounds to try to hit an airplane? Don't forget, right now, there are penalties to hit fast moving targets, so even supposing you have the range (a regular 76/75mm gun generally does not have the altitude to hit something at 30,000ft, a few do, but very, very few).

The same with skycycles. Oh, sure one can, but that supposes you see the plane (which isn't the hardest, but do you really want to be sitting there running your radar for all to see as a bandit? Especially a long range search radar???)

Next...small time operators aren't going to be hauling hundre million dollar shipments of flying super expensive planes. Those who do that, are darned well going to have the escort to show for it.

As I have pointed out on numerous occasions, >20,000ft ceiling airplanes are VERY common. Ones with >30,000ft ceilings are pretty much any jet or turbopro airplane out there. However, it is relatively rare to find ones with a ceiling over 40,000ft.

The humble Boeing 707 has a service ceiling of 43,000ft and cruise speed of 540kts (roughly 600mph).

Most buisiness jets are well over 30,000ft.

Most fighter jets have service ceilings in excess of 50,000ft.

What you are going to find are the really well endowed nations and companies flying their stuff using very custom supersonic planes (see Triax example in WB5) that likely are flying at greater than 60,000ft and at speeds in excess of Mach 2, if not Mach 3. Probably escorted by 2-4 fighters/attack planes. But that is expressly because they are carrying hundreds of millions of credits (if not billions) worth of gear.

The poor guys are probably going to be flying the equivelent of converted 707s or similar more modern GA/Post-Rifts planes with a handful of skycycle or fighter jet escorts for their high value stuff.

Most of the small guys aren't worth the effort to try to force down or shoot down.

There is a big difference between Mercs and MercOps. One is specifically listing a full on well equipped MDC Herc. The other is listing a generic light MDC converted transport plane.

No way to compare them. Unless we knew more about that generic light MDC transport plane, it is apples to oranges.

At that, even 10-20 million credits isn't that much to spend on a plane for a moderate sized operation.

That is 4-8 SAMAS PAs, roughly 1/4th of a Glitterboy. Roughly half or less that of your typical giant robot vehicle. About as much as a nuke powered tank. I can go on.

No, you won't see some tiny little town operating a GA Herc. You will however see TONS of medium companies, kingdoms, merc companies, etc operating them.

Also for training...you do realize you require Pilot: Hover vehicle to operate a hover bike, car, etc? IE you need a skill to do it, that is seperate and possibly (conjecture) to learn outside of pilot automobile. You know, just like you need for pilot helicopter or pilot airplane?

There is plenty of book evidence in several books that flying is not super dangerous, certainly not prey to bandits at every turn.

Yes, there is going to be SOME air piracy. Probably not a huge amount.

Near the CS, the CS are going to put the kabosh on that. Near most civilized kingdoms, they are going to do the same. Probably most kingdoms are going to do some basic patrolling outside of their borders for that kind of thing. After all, they want to protect their trade routes, land AND air based.

So for a bandit group, just sitting with radar running is NOT a smart thing. That is likely to get some unfriendly nation state taking a look at them.

[azazel1024]

For rentals...well, just like today, you pay a certain amount...but they darned well have a way of guaranteeing payment (your credit card information, plus their insurance).

How do you think they insure it in Rifts from Merc town? They probably only rent to someone who seems modestly reputable. They might require a refundable deposit be paid in advance (so you might have to fork up a couple of hundred thousand, but you get it back once you return the plane), or maybe a bank account with sufficient funds that they can draw against in case you don't return, or insurance/risk.

So they figure they rent the thing out 50 times and one of those times it won't come back. They probably still made money, especially if they had a little extra leverage or a deposit on the time it disappeared.

Even for relatively poor societies, most have fairly extensive air trasportation. Maybe not to the degree of the US or a lot of European countries, but look at Africa.

For example, South Africa as of 2010 has over 6,000 General Aviation Aircraft (10% of those are helicopters and excluding gliders, ultralights, etc, which contribute another 5,500) in operation and registered. That specifically EXCLUDES military aircraft (including military transports).

Brazil has over 12,000 GAA, not including sport/glider/ultralight catagories.

I'll grant you, the US has over 200,000 GAA in operation, so the other countries numbers are relatively small on a per person basis, HOWEVER it isn't like they are non-existant.

Go to Africa and generally if you want to go more than a hundred or two miles over, you are hoping on a bush plane to get there. It isn't even just the rich tourists who do, it is a lot of the locals (if they have a reason to need to travel that far). Yes, they are relatively "rich" locals in comparison to the local standard of living, but they are what one would normally consider more middle class, even for the area (its just that the "middle class" is maybe 10-20% of the populace compared to 60+% in the US).

So no, I'd never picture you average 200 person farming hamlet having an airfield (or at least probably not, crop dusting is still WAY easier than other methods of delivery, but they might contract with a nearby barnstormer who contracts with several local communities). However, most towns of modest size probably do have at least a dirt strip and might even have a couple of local pilots/planes that fly out of it for things like crop dusting, mail delivers and transporting important (and small) cargos or passengers to relatively nearby communities.

[Comrade Corsarius]

This mythical fleet of commonly-available, high-service-ceiling, heavy-life air transports you all seem to believe exists is exactly that:

mythical. it doesn't exist and no part of the canon setting has ever intimated that it does. In fact, the setting regards air travel as dangerous and rare.

Rifts: Mercenaries gives prices and lists for various civilian aircraft all the way up to big transports, as well as refitting costs and add-ons that can be done by GAW. Seems they ARE rather common, cheap, and canon.

[Akashic Soldier]

Rifts: Mercenaries gives prices and lists for various civilian aircraft all the way up to big transports, as well as refitting costs and add-ons that can be done by GAW. Seems they ARE rather common, cheap, and canon.

And very useful.

[Gamer]

Rifts: Mercenaries gives prices and lists for various civilian aircraft all the way up to big transports, as well as refitting costs and add-ons that can be done by GAW. Seems they ARE rather common, cheap, and canon.

And very useful.

Darn tooting, good place to practice your cartography and digital photography.

[Akashic Soldier]

Darn tooting, good place to practice your cartography and digital photography.

This should be over in my land navigation thread.

[Gamer]

Darn tooting, good place to practice your cartography and digital photography.

This should be over in my land navigation thread.

Then again with your luck maybe you should just buy a good map and leave the job to the less direction finding impaired

[Akashic Soldier]

Then again with your luck maybe you should just buy a good map and leave the job to the less direction finding impaired

[azazel1024]

The only supplier that has specifically listed it out.

By your claim we have seen every SINGLE vehicle, piece of equipment, etc, etc, etc that Northern Gun, Triax, Black Market, Wilkes, GAW, MI, etc, etc, ad nauseum actually offer.

So everytime a new book comes out with more equipment and vehicles and stuff in it...all of that is brand spanking new stuff that is JUST now being offered for consumption (if so, how has GAW supposedly sold hundreds of Hercs if they just started selling them the instant Merc Ops books hits the Rifts timeline?).

As I mentioned earlier, light aircraft are not that difficult to design and build if you have a modest understanding of aeronautics. Hell, a fairly basic understanding and being a decent automechanic could probably allow you to bodge together something that could take off, carry a pilot and passenger plus a couple of backpacks and reliably enough be able to fly a couple of hundred miles (or more) at >10,000ft and >100mph. There are TONS of operators in Rifts, and I'd imagine a pretty large number would be capable of building a decent enough airplane for bush operations.

NG and MI (among others) probably also manufacture light passenger/cargo planes and maybe even jets. Triax almost certainly would for the NGR market (and probably bigger stuff too).

For modern vs. post apocalyptic, keep in mind travel by ground IS established to be fairly dangerous in some places, but worse, there is NO infrastructure in most places. There are no wonderful pave roads between communities. There are a handful of communities with paved roads leading out of them and most don't go all that far before ending and then you MIGHT have a dirt road cut through woods, over old decayed roads, etc to another community. Hover vehicles aren't impacted by that, but again, you might be fairly limited in routes you can take and hover vehicles are rather more expensive than road going vehicles (generally). Also 100 miles to the nearest community by ground transportation might only be able to accomplished at 20-30mph based on the condition of passable roads (probably mostly unpaved and possibly not even graveled or maintained in ANY way) and you might also have to travel 120-200+ miles since you might not be able to travel in a straight line there. So by road it could be a full day of travel to get there, and it might not be super safe either, with possibly better chance of basic banditry, or monsters, supernatural creatures, etc.

Even by hover vehicle you might not be able to travel in a straight line and possibly more chance of bad things than flying would encounter. You might also not want or be able to travel at max speed since you might be only a few feet over the tree canopy (and might have to dodge the occasional taller tree). So even if you could have a relatively straight line course, you might still be going 110-150 miles (or much more depending on how you have to travel there) to the town 100 miles away, and might also have to stick to only 50-100 mph to be generally safe (plenty of hover vehicles have a sub 100ft max altitude)...so it could still be several hours and there aren't a lot of inexpensive hover vehicles. Most are a lot more than what a light airplane would cost...with the exception of hover bikes, which have almost no cargo and CANNOT operate as crop dusters.

Based on workable payload, altitude, etc, there are not a lot of hover vehicles suitable for use as crop dusters. You can't use a hover bike (doesn't have the lift capacity/cargo). Most hover vehicles that might be workable (we are talking at least a 500lbs payload and better yet 800-1200lbs capacity), are likely to be in the 500,00+ credit range. As listed by Mercs, small to medium airplane is 60-90k credits. Massively cheaper than most hover vehicles that would be capable of crop dusting.

Local crop duster just works double duty flying mail and the occasional passenger or packages between local communities.

Merc gives prices for some basic airplanes and Merc Ops as well as Arzno talks about how common air travel is and some of the prices. Common sense + real world experience and examples show that air travel would also be relatively common. Yet you are arguing that NO, IT CANNOT BE!

It isn't SAFE. Very few things in Rifts are really safe, but it is possibly safer in most circumstances than travel by ground over long distances (so long as you stay away from areas that are known to be unfriendly to flying things). Travel by airplane and/or use of airplanes is also cheaper (as shown by book examples) in a number of circumstances and based on real world examples, even if you included hover vehicles as a possiblity, airplanes or helicopters are about the only workable solution, or at least would work much, much better than even a hover vehicle.

Airplanes are not plentiful.

PS With crop dusting, I guess you don't have experience and/or have never watched crop dusting before. Generally a halfway competent crop duster doesn't waste much at all. They tend to start spraying maybe a second before hitting the field and stop maybe a second after their pass. That isn't much waste overall, and most airplanes are going to have a much wide spray path than a hover craft would (without jury rigging up so long booms sticking out of the hovercraft). Also as pointed out, light airplanes are cheaper than most even cheap hovercraft, let alone hover craft that would be in anyway suitable for crop dusting.

[Comrade Corsarius]

For modern vs. post apocalyptic, keep in mind travel by ground IS established to be fairly dangerous in some places, but worse, there is NO infrastructure in most places. There are no wonderful pave roads between communities. There are a handful of communities with paved roads leading out of them and most don't go all that far before ending and then you MIGHT have a dirt road cut through woods, over old decayed roads, etc to another community

Actually, New West flavour text (before the Silvereno entry) indicates that many places are connected by a rail network, and that the mayor of Silvereno was considering adding that town to said rail network.

It's rather late, but tomorrow I'll dig up all the stuff on aircraft from GAW in Mercs. It makes it quite clear that air travel is both cheap and plentiful.

Also, think along these lines:
Pilot a car: Difficult, but with practice, not so hard.
Pilot an aircraft: Ditto, but the learning curve is steeper
Pilot a hovercraft: Easily the most difficult of the three. Who here is a pom? Nobody? Did anyone ever take the cross-channel hovercraft? There's a reason that even the military doesn't operate them much, because they are BLOODY hard to control (it's like driving on black ice, all the time, in every direction. You're pushing along a relatively frictionless surface with a lot of inertia, so turning is always insanely difficult).

Ergo, it is more likely to have ground/regular air transport.

[azazel1024]

Real world, a light airplane doesn't have much radar signiture. You need a pretty high powered radar set to pickup something like a Cessna at 200 miles. Especially if the plane is made from low RCS materials, like wood and stuff (its lower than metal), or plastics.

The game doesn't have a mechanic for it, but if a radar set could pickup aircraft out to 200 miles, I'd assume it could pickup something with a modest RCS at that range. Something like a plastic based Cesna (could even be extruded MDC plastics), might be able to be picked up at 30-40 miles range. Even at longer range, if you could/did lock it up and launch, and you saw the missile and could drop below the radar horizon of the missile and/or SAM battery radar, are the bandits then going to be within easy ground weapons range? You just launched at the plane 200 miles away! Or even 20! So now suddenly you know EXACTLY where you are going to pick up the plane as well as exactly where you are going to launch against it, so you can pre-positiong a party, within say, 1,000ft or so of where you know the plane is going to scramble for the nape of the earth so you can range on it with rifles and minimissile launchers? Why would you even bother going after something as small fry as as cesna to begin with with that kind of hardware?

For that matter, how haven't you gotten someone asking you pointed questions sitting there with a radar array and SAM battery that can pickup targets at 200 miles and swat them from the sky? As I pointed out, you are NOT going to sit there blasting out active radar hoping to pick up a target. Not if you are a bandit and hope to have a long career.

Passive radar receivers are only going to pickup tarets that are using active radar. You could use radio antennas and triangulation to track a target if it was actively broadcasting radio though, but that assumes it is actively broadcasting and you know the frequency sweep and have antennas capable of picking up those frequencies to triangulate it. Also depending on frequency and power, BIG antennas and/or sufficient spacing to actually triangulate the broadcasts. Assuming that the target in question isn't using spread spectrum and frequency hoping as well as compressed transmissions. If it is doing that, you probably will NEVER be able to locate the target using radio triangulation, even really sophisticated radio triangulation. Oh and you can throw in monopole high gain antennas (hell, even dipole high gain antennas) and/or laser based communications to make it pretty much impossible to track the plane.

It is in theory possible to locate anything using electricity and more easily with something using spark ignition due to the EMI produced by both electrical systems (and best yet alternators/generators) and spark ignition (LOTS of EMI produced from spark plugs and coil packs/distributor caps). However, it isn't something that can be picked up at super great ranges and take some really sophisticated gear to pick up. It is not something you are likely to find bandits using, probably not even used much by folks like the CS. However, with really sophisticated stuff that MIGHT be field deployable, you might be able to pickup a gasoline spark ignition engine at a couple of miles (seriously, like 2-3 miles) and pinpoint it.

GAW does more than just recondition stuff. There are several entries about GAW where it mentions they do manufacture some stuff new.

I don't recall ANY books mentioning that GAW is the ONLY supplier of airplanes to North America. The mercs entry simply lists that the prices are for pre-rifts reconditioned airplanes.

Of course M48A3 are going to be damned rare in salvagable condition, because most are going to be found in 3rd world countries or museums. Crap, even M-60A3/A4 are going to be hard to find these days, let alone what would be a century to the end of the Golden Age and then 300+ years after the coming of the Rifts. M1A2s would probably be hard to find and it lists no numbers for M-60 or M1A1/A2s (or even future developed tanks).

It also says those are the numbers GAW HAS, not how many they have sold. It mentioned that those are relatively poplar. They could have sold several hundred of each and those are all they have of current, refurbished stock (they could have hundreds of others just sitting waiting to be reconditioned).

A TOW missile is very, VERY hard to hit a fast moving object with. I don't know if there have been any succesful shoot downs of a plane with one. Probably have been of a helicopter, but I suspect there haven't even been a lot of attempts. TOWs just don't move super fast and don't have a super long range. A Stinger has plenty of take downs, but mostly on helicopters. SLAAMs do not have a very long range. They are generally effective against helicopters and to a lesser degree airplanes at short ranges (I believe a stinger only has a range of about 5km).

I don't recall MIM-104s being mentioned in any of the books as a GAW product, or HUMVEES with AIM-120s. AIM-120s only have a range of 30 miles, which is pretty decent, but I believe that is a max range against targets at similar altitudes. If an AIM-120 had to climb to altitude first, it is probably going to be more like 15-20 miles against something at 20,000+ft, which frankly, is fairly point blank range for a SAM. Still can be very effective at area protection, but not so good unless you know exactly where you want to setup your ambush.

I again go back to both it would be unhealthy in most even vaguely civilzed areas (most of NA east of the Mississippi are civilized enough and the CS certainly is) to operate a setup where you could hit targets from very long ranges (bandit airfields not a good idea, unless you can easily hide them, long range missile batteries and their radars...the later is certainly not something you want to leave on or even operate much). For some setups it would require an enormous amount of resources (IE airfield, fighter jets, etc. Even operating several skycycles isn't super cheap, though not that expensive either). Bandits also aren't going to have a strong inclination to go against obvious small fries.

Ye old 17-19th century pirates didn't typical way lay your average fishing slop, packet ship, etc. There was just no real profit in it. They went for high value targets, like real merchant ships, whalers, treasure ships, etc. A number of the later sometimes very much had the ability to fight back and/or were even more powerful than the pirates or would have escorts or sometimes operate in convoys.

[Icefalcon]

You keep trying to provide real world examples of your point. The problem is, that clashes with what is presented in the books.
Can you show any vehicle (other than the NGR supersonic jet; and in canon) that has a ceiling of over 20,000 feet?
Can you give me the book and page number of any aircraft, other than Coalition, that has chaff/flare abilities? How about as an add-on option?
Can you give me a book and page number that shows that Rifts radar works the way you have been trying to say radar works? Because I seem to remember that even ground targets can be picked up which means no matter how low a planes flies, it is not safe from radar.
Can you prove that creatures are limited in their flight ceiling (book and page number) in any way?
Can you prove that, even in small communities, there is never expensive shipments? Or that the bandits could not find out ahead of time?
Can you provide proof that there is any other supplier of aircraft that sells them (Coalition and NGR do not count here)?

[flatline]

You keep trying to provide real world examples of your point. The problem is, that clashes with what is presented in the books.

Some of us allow real world knowledge to trump the contents of the books when it is clear that the book material was written out of ignorance or assigns arbitrary limits with no explanation given as to why it is so much more limited than we would expect given modern real world capabilities.

Can you show any vehicle (other than the NGR supersonic jet; and in canon) that has a ceiling of over 20,000 feet?

Grav Packs have no flight ceiling, although if the pilot requires air, he should probably bring some if he plans to go very high.

Any vehicle that can function in space has no flight ceiling as long as it has enough impulse to get off the surface of the Earth.

Can you give me a book and page number that shows that Rifts radar works the way you have been trying to say radar works? Because I seem to remember that even ground targets can be picked up which means no matter how low a planes flies, it is not safe from radar.

Radar is strictly line of sight. Since the Earth's surface curves, no radar is going to have any success seeing things close to the ground at any real distance since the curvature of the Earth will interfere with line of sight. Wikipedia has an article on "radar horizon". Take a look at it to understand what I'm talking about.

If you're in the air and I'm on the ground, even if you can see me directly, it is unlikely that your radar can distinguish me from the ground I'm standing on in any meaningful way. So while it's theoretically possible in some scenarios for radar to see ground targets, it will never be as good as simply pointing a camera at the ground with some decent image processing capability supporting it.

Can you prove that creatures are limited in their flight ceiling (book and page number) in any way?

It all depends on how they fly. Creatures that use wings to gain lift need to have sufficiently dense air in order to stay in the air. Creatures that use magic to fly are probably only limited in height by their need for breathable air.

--flatline

[flatline]

air travel safe....... with just about every powered armor and decent combat squad having access to missile weapons with the range and speed to catch you, I would think less people would choos to rise up an make themselves a sitting duck for missile and rail gun barage, hence maybe why only full armys with ECM backup and fighter airsupport tend to take to the skies.

What rail gun can shoot you when you're 6+ miles above the earth's surface?

--flatline

I didnt say anything about altitude......and 6 miles up doesnt that put you in range for the satelite weapons...or in space..... i served on a miliraity vessel in the service, our boat was NOT a war boat, it did not have a rail gun, but the main 60MM mount on the front could hit things out or up at a range of 10 miles......and it was built in the vietnam era....

You said that flying an aircraft makes you a "sitting duck for missile and rail gun barrage" and I asked what rail gun can shoot you if you're cruising along above 30,000 feet.

I do not have mutant in orbit, so I can't confirm what the safe flight ceiling is before you're in danger of getting shot at by orbital killer satellites, but from discussion in other threads, I'm under the impression that anything less than 100,000 feet is safe. I'm certain someone will correct me if that statement is incorrect.

As to the range of your 60mm cannon, having a lateral range of 10 miles does not mean you can send your ordinance 10 miles straight up.

--flatline

[Shark_Force]

I do not have mutant in orbit, so I can't confirm what the safe flight ceiling is before you're in danger of getting shot at by orbital killer satellites, but from discussion in other threads, I'm under the impression that anything less than 100,000 feet is safe. I'm certain someone will correct me if that statement is incorrect.

i'm not certain what the safe height is, but i believe we know at least it must be below 50k feet. how much less is unsure, but at 50k feet some of the NGR supertransports have apparently been shot down by orbital weapons. if it was in fact something relatively low, that would explain why so few high altitude aircraft are in the game.

[Icefalcon]

You keep trying to provide real world examples of your point. The problem is, that clashes with what is presented in the books.

Some of us allow real world knowledge to trump the contents of the books when it is clear that the book material was written out of ignorance or assigns arbitrary limits with no explanation given as to why it is so much more limited than we would expect given modern real world capabilities.

Can you show any vehicle (other than the NGR supersonic jet; and in canon) that has a ceiling of over 20,000 feet?

Grav Packs have no flight ceiling, although if the pilot requires air, he should probably bring some if he plans to go very high.

Any vehicle that can function in space has no flight ceiling as long as it has enough impulse to get off the surface of the Earth.

Can you give me a book and page number that shows that Rifts radar works the way you have been trying to say radar works? Because I seem to remember that even ground targets can be picked up which means no matter how low a planes flies, it is not safe from radar.

Radar is strictly line of sight. Since the Earth's surface curves, no radar is going to have any success seeing things close to the ground at any real distance since the curvature of the Earth will interfere with line of sight. Wikipedia has an article on "radar horizon". Take a look at it to understand what I'm talking about.

If you're in the air and I'm on the ground, even if you can see me directly, it is unlikely that your radar can distinguish me from the ground I'm standing on in any meaningful way. So while it's theoretically possible in some scenarios for radar to see ground targets, it will never be as good as simply pointing a camera at the ground with some decent image processing capability supporting it.

Can you prove that creatures are limited in their flight ceiling (book and page number) in any way?

It all depends on how they fly. Creatures that use wings to gain lift need to have sufficiently dense air in order to stay in the air. Creatures that use magic to fly are probably only limited in height by their need for breathable air.

--flatline

You really didn't answer any of my questions. Can you find any canon answers to my questions? Otherwise the books say things work a certain way, then players are going to expect them to work that way. Do you really think that they are going to accept my answers on how this stuff works in real life (and I am not arguing that you are wrong, I happen to agree with the RL info) when the books state something different?

[taalismn]

Cropland Air Defense---Rifts Style: http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp164/taalismn/l28.jpg

"Let's see those pesky crows eat my corn this year!"

[Gamer]

Can you show any vehicle (other than the NGR supersonic jet; and in canon) that has a ceiling of over 20,000 feet?

Merc Ops is loaded with them, even the GAW-64 helicopter has an altitude of 20,000 feet.

Can you give me the book and page number of any aircraft, other than Coalition, that has chaff/flare abilities? How about as an add-on option?

new West pg 184: Bandito arms wild weasel samas
Traix& NGR pg 124: Dragon fly drop ship
Traix& NGR pg 127: Mosquito Air APC
Traix& NGR pg 128: Lightning Jet Fighter
Triax 2 pg 88 : Gimmick Vehicular Weapon Systems
Availability per pg:85 and common sense unless you really need PB to hold your hand.

Can you give me a book and page number that shows that Rifts radar works the way you have been trying to say radar works? Because I seem to remember that even ground targets can be picked up which means no matter how low a planes flies, it is not safe from radar.

sourcebook 1 pg 102: mini radar
pg103: maxi radar
sourcebook 1 revised pg 30 robot: micro radar; robot radar system
Most importantly GM guide page 41: radar notes
Please try to remember for later there will be a guiz.

Can you prove that creatures are limited in their flight ceiling (book and page number) in any way?

Guess what Palladium common sense is now 'endangered' sense you need to start putting in print really stupid rules now.

Can you provide proof that there is any other supplier of aircraft that sells them (Coalition and NGR do not count here)?

Go through your own books and learn something for a change instead of grasping blindly in the dark.

[Gamer]

Cropland Air Defense---Rifts Style: http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp164/taalismn/l28.jpg

"Let's see those pesky crows eat my corn this year!"

Oooooh
Yu be frum ritch city
we's jus gots these
http://manyfor.com/lucky/wp-content/upl ... e-tank.jpg

http://uploaded.fresh.co.il/2004/10/08/328123.jpg

http://www.funtoosh.com/pictures/images ... oldier.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/10/ ... 34x416.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/10/ ... 34x434.jpg

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"dat mean SAMAS dude went thata way"
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[Icefalcon]

Merc Ops is loaded with them, even the GAW-64 helicopter has an altitude of 20,000 feet.

I don't own Merc Ops but I trust your research. Almost all of the listed heights in the books proceeding this list maximum height as 10,000 or less.

new West pg 184: Bandito arms wild weasel samas
Traix& NGR pg 124: Dragon fly drop ship
Traix& NGR pg 127: Mosquito Air APC
Traix& NGR pg 128: Lightning Jet Fighter
Triax 2 pg 88 : Gimmick Vehicular Weapon Systems
Availability per pg:85 and common sense unless you really need PB to hold your hand.

In the previous post I meant to say any that were not Coalition or NGR in origin because those two governments don't share their military tech with the public. I was not aware that Bandito Arms had the tech. That would indicate that it can be added to civilian aircraft. After ten years away from the game, forgive me for not remembering every reference to every vehicle's armament. I only remembered NGR and Coalition planes having it. There is no need for inflammatory comments about my ability to extrapolate canon data.

sourcebook 1 pg 102: mini radar
pg103: maxi radar
sourcebook 1 revised pg 30 robot: micro radar; robot radar system
Most importantly GM guide page 41: radar notes
Please try to remember for later there will be a guiz.

Ok, I give you that one. They have changed the way that radar works. But again, leave the inflammatory comments home.

Guess what Palladium common sense is now 'endangered' sense you need to start putting in print really stupid rules now.

There was no need for this comment. Maybe I should tell you that you seem to not be able to keep the snarky comments out of your posts. I am trying to have a legitimate conversation. You have posted some good information here. There was no need for you to follow them up with ones that make you seem immature.

Go through your own books and learn something for a change instead of grasping blindly in the dark.

Why don't you learn a little respect for people.

[taalismn]

Room enough for everybody, folks. Let's keep it light-hearted.

Yes, if sufficient resources are dedicated to high performance aerial transport, and it is more readily available to everybody, then Rifts Earth becomes a smaller place and large scale trading networks(and the civilizations utilizing them) become more prevalent and prosperous.
But the hurtles are the fact that same technology makes anti-aircraft weapons relatively commonplace, so air travelers have to be wary. And even then, cruising at altitude is no certainty of safety, because of what ELSE might be lurking in the skies(CS fighters, killsats, dragons.....is there an altitude limit for dragons?).
Whether you're trying to make the skies trade-friendly or keep your PCs ground-bound, it's your game, your world, however you want to spin it.

[Comrade Corsarius]

Room enough for everybody, folks. Let's keep it light-hearted.

Yes, if sufficient resources are dedicated to high performance aerial transport, and it is more readily available to everybody, then Rifts Earth becomes a smaller place and large scale trading networks(and the civilizations utilizing them) become more prevalent and prosperous.
But the hurtles are the fact that same technology makes anti-aircraft weapons relatively commonplace, so air travelers have to be wary. And even then, cruising at altitude is no certainty of safety, because of what ELSE might be lurking in the skies(CS fighters, killsats, dragons.....is there an altitude limit for dragons?).
Whether you're trying to make the skies trade-friendly or keep your PCs ground-bound, it's your game, your world, however you want to spin it.

Also there's the effort of distance and adventure, which is very likely the real reason for keeping things ground-based.

If I want to travel from Brisbane to Sydney, it takes me an hour (not including check-in, baggage, etc etc). Last year I rode to Sydney on my motorbike. It took me 12 hours, and that was on good roads with short breaks. Now imagine what life would be like if I drove a 4wd to Sydney, deliberately using only off-road tracks to do so (I've a map from a 4wd club that actually does just that, and more, lets you 4wd all the way round Australia without touching the bitumen outside of town). It would take freaking 3-4 days, minimum (assuming no breakdowns, bogs, winching, or other trouble). Increasing travel time between places makes the world seem larger. Add in wandering monsters, bandits out to get your stuff, and rift activity, and it would take a well-equipped group a week or two to travel what I could, by air, do in an hour or less (depending on the type of aircraft).

The map of Rifts is the map of Earth. The USA is approximately the same size as Australia (give or take a bit), and yet there are several nations which have sprung up in areas of the former US (rather quaintly, maps still have the old state borders on them, as if I were going to Europe and trying to navigate using a map from the 15th century). Some of these nations are not even aware of the other, or only vaguely so. Reducing air travel is a game mechanic to keep the distances and the time between them large. If you could fly from Chi-town to (say) Area 51 in only a couple of hours, passing over several countries as you went, then I would assume you would have a much greater familiarity with said countries, as well as many MANY missed adventuring opportunities.

And after all, adventuring is what this game is about. I love air travel in rifts. I love my sky ship. I also love the fact that it's low enough, and slow enough, to actually make adventuring worthwhile. Just think about that.

[taalismn]

And even if you have familiarity with far away countries thanks to your high speed high altitude aircraft, the obvious adventure hook is something that forces you down in that unknown territory in between...where you find out what all those ant-like dots from on high REALLY are, while you try to repair your ride or get another one back to what passes for civilization.

[flatline]

I don't see air travel as a way to avoid adventuring. I see it as a way to choose the type of adventure you want to have, and as I'm sure someone will point out, it's trivial for the GM to force the aircraft down if they really want you to see something on the ground ("your engine begins to act funny. Being an experienced pilot, you are able to land it, but it's a good thing you didn't try to go much further..." or "you hear someone on the radio asking for help..." or whatever).

But most importantly, I see air travel as something that helps make the setting more believable.

--flatline

[taalismn]

But most importantly, I see air travel as something that helps make the setting more believable.

--flatline

That, and it's a good escape mechanism...
Well, as long as something like "Okay, who let all these *%&&%ing snakes on the &^&$$^ing plane?!" doesn't happen.

[SAMASzero]

Despite all the arguing on both sides, the fact still remains that Air Travel is A: Expensive, and B: Dangerous. And until it gets C: Profitable enough to be worth both A and B, there won't be a whole lot of air travel over Rifts' Earth.

Enhancer and the others aren't saying why it CAN'T, they're saying why it ISN'T. There's always room to change the world, that's what Heroes are for!

That said however, the state of air travel (and combat) in North America and Europe at least has been growing over the past ten years. Rather than whine about why the Future isn't here now, the idea of the players trying to expand commercial flight would make a good setup for a campaign. Whether they're on the ground clearing out bandits and monsters on their intended routes and landing sites, flying escort in the skies to guard against new threats, or dealing with politics, espionage and sabotage from the CS, Black Market and others, there's a lot of room there for Adventure.

[flatline]

Out of curiosity, what kind of RF broadcasters are there in Rifts Earth for passive radar to take advantage of?

--flatline