Why is the system so broken?

[Daeglan]

No it does not... but; re-organizing and clarifying the rules for ease of introduction is not something that can be done in just a few days time.
And that brings us to Palladiums current conundrum.
Do they stop producing for the year or two it will take to do this? (they are going to have to dedicate their full attention to just this project to get it done with any modicum of speed)
Or do they continue as they have producing new product?
One ensures a revenue of some sort the other is a huge gamble with no guarantee of success and a high probability of failure.

How many books do they currently have in production? Why couldn't they have one of those books be a Revised and clarified Core rules?

Because correcting the system is going to take time...
More time than the company can afford to expend. (at this time).

Again HOW MANY books are in production right now? Why can't one of those books be a revision?

Because re-inventing the wheel is more difficult than making more wheels.

It is not reinventing the wheel. It is fixing the 4 flat tires the current system has. those 4 flat tires are keeping the system from going anywhere. Adding more cars to the engine with out fixing the thing pulling the train means the system does not go anywhere.

Damien how much stuff have you found that needs fixing in your compilation?

[Damian Magecraft]

Because re-inventing the wheel is more difficult than making more wheels.

It is not reinventing the wheel. It is fixing the 4 flat tires the current system has. those 4 flat tires are keeping the system from going anywhere. Adding more cars to the engine with out fixing the thing pulling the train means the system does not go anywhere.

Actually KC has the right of it... its not just a simple replace the flats...
its finding why those 4 tires are flat, fixing those damages, and then re-inflating them, and of course before you can even think of going anywhere testing each repaired tire to ensure it is safe to run.

Damian how much stuff have you found that needs fixing in your compilation?

That is part of the problem...
I have to stop myself from inserting my own biases into the system. (There are rules that I do not agree with but they function exactly as intended.)
It would take me less time to build my own interpretation of the system (with all my little tweaks and twitches) than it is the original system.

In order for this project to truly work with any sort of speed it would require a technical writer who has no concept of Table Top Games and no investment in Palladium or Rifts to go through the system with a fine tooth comb and arrange the rules. (the odds finding such a person willing to do this on spec are astronomical).

[Damian Magecraft]

Just because it needs to be reposted again...
here is the format that should be considered by the company IMO and is the one I am using in my compilation...

Section one: A Lexicon of all terms used in the game (OCC, RCC, PCC, HP, SDC, MDC, PPE, ISP, etc...)
Section two: discusses what attributes are, what they affect and how they affect them, how they are generated (how race affects stat generation, etc...)
Section two: Discusses general character generation
Section three: covers skills, how they are used, what affects them, how skill modifiers are applied in the course of play, consolidate redundant skills (four different kinds of prowl for example), Followed by the list of skills
Section four: covers magic, What PPE is, How PPE works, how casting works, Who can get them, followed by the spells.
Section five: covers Psionics, What ISP is, How ISP works, How casting PSI works, Who can get them, followed by the Psionics
Section six: covers Superpowers, What they are, how they work, Who can get them, followed by the powers
Section seven: covers the basics of combat (HTH skills go in the skills section not here), Lists all combat options (dodge, parry, etc.), defines them, clarifies them, adjusts the more easily abused options (A limit on the number of simultaneous attacks per melee for example)
Subsection 7A: covers melee combat (with easily followed example that demonstrates all options)
Subsection 7B: Covers ranged combat (with easily followed example that demonstrates all options)
Subsection 7C: Covers Magic combat (with easily followed example that demonstrates all options)
Subsection 7D: Covers Psionic combat (with easily followed example that demonstrates all options)
Subsection 7E: Covers Superpower Combat (with easily followed example that demonstrates all options)
Subsection 7F: covers how A through E interact with each other. (with easily followed example that demonstrates all options)
Section eight: Covers noncombat rules like jumping, holding breath, etc..
Section nine: how character advancement works.
Section ten: A comprehensive index of everything above (only covering things found in said book).
the order of sections Four through Nine is subject to editor whim and should not be taken as gospel. (but the information contained in the sections must remain in their respective sections).

[Killer Cyborg]

Again HOW MANY books are in production right now? Why can't one of those books be a revision?

Because re-inventing the wheel is more difficult than making more wheels.

It is not reinventing the wheel. It is fixing the 4 flat tires the current system has. those 4 flat tires are keeping the system from going anywhere. Adding more cars to the engine with out fixing the thing pulling the train means the system does not go anywhere.

I think you're confusing the tires with the engine.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I have yet to see what is broken all I seen is character creation( which now sounds like a broken record), which yes if you make a RCC you are going to go thru a different way then the regular way, so any other problems?

[Damian Magecraft]

I have yet to see what is broken all I seen is character creation( which now sounds like a broken record), which yes if you make a RCC you are going to go thru a different way then the regular way, so any other problems?

Read this it will explain everything.

[Blue_Lion]

I never once have ever tried to say that the rules work as written. It simply doesn't matter because I enjoy the setting enough to work around it and did when I was a new player. So the arguement that the rules are so off putting as to turn people off tells me they must not have been that interested in the first place. Which has been the bottom line of my point this whole thread. Is that clear enough

The key to a successful business is to make it easier for people to use your product than to go somewhere else.
You don't just want to get the people who are REALLY interested in the product, enough to fight their way past multiple obstacles; you want to get everybody, ideally.
Or at least everybody not actively opposed to the idea.
You want to sell to the indifferent, not just the engrossed.

I thaght the key to a successful buisiness was to get people to come back after the first visit. Heck there are allot of products out there that are becoming harder to use and still sell like crazy.

[Killer Cyborg]

If it's easier to use your product that to go somewhere else, the customers will keep coming back.
Because that will be easier than going someplace else.

[Jay05]

I never once have ever tried to say that the rules work as written. It simply doesn't matter because I enjoy the setting enough to work around it and did when I was a new player. So the arguement that the rules are so off putting as to turn people off tells me they must not have been that interested in the first place. Which has been the bottom line of my point this whole thread. Is that clear enough

Good, yes. But perhaps your experience with the character creation is not shared by everyone else. There certainly is some reason that Palladium is dying and can't seem to attract new players. I'm pretty sure the learning curve on the system is a likely culprit. So either A) everyone who tries the game is so incapable of basic intelligent thought that they would rather find a simpler system or B) players who try don't feel like putting in the effort of "figuring it out" and would rather find a game that doesn't immediately present the player with a error.

Which means they are either A) too stupid to get it. Or B) Too lazy. I don't have much sympathy for either trait. Just highlighting your inferance here. By the way, this circular BS has become a waste of my time. I'm done with this thread.

Warning: This post contributes nothing to the discussion and takes a parting shot on its way to a ragequit. Warning for trolling.

[Nightmask]

I never once have ever tried to say that the rules work as written. It simply doesn't matter because I enjoy the setting enough to work around it and did when I was a new player. So the arguement that the rules are so off putting as to turn people off tells me they must not have been that interested in the first place. Which has been the bottom line of my point this whole thread. Is that clear enough

Good, yes. But perhaps your experience with the character creation is not shared by everyone else. There certainly is some reason that Palladium is dying and can't seem to attract new players. I'm pretty sure the learning curve on the system is a likely culprit. So either A) everyone who tries the game is so incapable of basic intelligent thought that they would rather find a simpler system or B) players who try don't feel like putting in the effort of "figuring it out" and would rather find a game that doesn't immediately present the player with a error.

Which means they are either A) too stupid to get it. Or B) Too lazy. I don't have much sympathy for either trait. Just highlighting your inferance here. By the way, this circular BS has become a waste of my time. I'm done with this thread.

Really uncalled for to call anyone stupid or lazy because you think that because you got it everyone should have to be able to understand it. Neither you nor anyone else constitutes a representative sample to declare 'well if I got it then everyone should', that's a fallacy. People don't organize data the same way and sometimes just can't get it for how someone else decides to because it just doesn't mesh with how they do it.

[Daeglan]

I never once have ever tried to say that the rules work as written. It simply doesn't matter because I enjoy the setting enough to work around it and did when I was a new player. So the arguement that the rules are so off putting as to turn people off tells me they must not have been that interested in the first place. Which has been the bottom line of my point this whole thread. Is that clear enough

Good, yes. But perhaps your experience with the character creation is not shared by everyone else. There certainly is some reason that Palladium is dying and can't seem to attract new players. I'm pretty sure the learning curve on the system is a likely culprit. So either A) everyone who tries the game is so incapable of basic intelligent thought that they would rather find a simpler system or B) players who try don't feel like putting in the effort of "figuring it out" and would rather find a game that doesn't immediately present the player with a error.

Which means they are either A) too stupid to get it. Or B) Too lazy. I don't have much sympathy for either trait. Just highlighting your inferance here. By the way, this circular BS has become a waste of my time. I'm done with this thread.

You left out a third option. C. They want to spend their time playing. Not deciphering a poorly written rule system. Some people have limited time to spend gaming.When every other system works out of the box not requiring someone to decipher it. It presents a strong logical reason to skip over rifts in favor of a system that requires less work. People play games because they want to have fun. every obstacle to getting to the fun of playing costs time and effort. Not everyone want to spend their time and effort on deciphering the game. In fact most people have very limited time budgets unless they are in high school or college.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I can second that. I have a wife and kid. My time to game isn't plentiful. I'm between (day-to day) jobs (i do work with local/midwest area conventions, but that isnt day-to-day), having been at home with my son until he started school this fall, meaning i have a lot of time (currently) to post and work on stuff, but that doesn't help my gaming time - my friends have jobs, marriages, kids. We're lucky if we can get together twice a month to game. Im thinking about dragging the lot of them into Rifts kicking and screaming anyway, because it's what i want to run, but that doesn't mean the system isn't poorly written and broken.

Im going to have to house-rule character creation and do a major overhaul of combat just to make it playable. And then probably house-rule a bunch of the weapons right out of existence to keep the damage level of the game (infantry-scale) sane and not brutally lethal. Weapon power/creep IS also a part of the system that you have to deal with.

[Sureshot]

And that brings us to Palladiums current conundrum.
Do they stop producing for the year or two it will take to do this? (they are going to have to dedicate their full attention to just this project to get it done with any modicum of speed)
Or do they continue as they have producing new product?
One ensures a revenue of some sort the other is a huge gamble with no guarantee of success and a high probability of failure.

They are going to have to something imo to stop the downward spiral. Not right away yet imo they can't take forever like they did with the feedback threads. It took what almost two decades to acknowledge that they might need to clarify certain elements of the game. As I said would love to see a new edition. Yet understand that will not happen. The system needs to be streamlined, clarified and just plain spruced up to read better and easier. Stil I think they waited too damn long as a company to even attempt a streamlining. Stuck in a catch 22 of their own making. As well as some other outside factors. And keeping the system as is while insuring some sort of revenue it's also a slow steady loss of income. I'm not sure what can be done.

[Damian Magecraft]

And that brings us to Palladiums current conundrum.
Do they stop producing for the year or two it will take to do this? (they are going to have to dedicate their full attention to just this project to get it done with any modicum of speed)
Or do they continue as they have producing new product?
One ensures a revenue of some sort the other is a huge gamble with no guarantee of success and a high probability of failure.

They are going to have to something imo to stop the downward spiral. Not right away yet imo they can't take forever like they did with the feedback threads. It took what almost two decades to acknowledge that they might need to clarify certain elements of the game. As I said would love to see a new edition. Yet understand that will not happen. The system needs to be streamlined, clarified and just plain spruced up to read better and easier. Stil I think they waited too damn long as a company to even attempt a streamlining. Stuck in a catch 22 of their own making. As well as some other outside factors. And keeping the system as is while insuring some sort of revenue it's also a slow steady loss of income. I'm not sure what can be done.

well one thing that can be done is...
We as fans with the best interests of the company at heart could take it upon ourselves to help by collecting the rules together and setting them in a logical format and then presenting it to Kevin and Co.
Instead of just endlessly complaining about whats happening and waiting for them to do it. (if enough of us do this I think we might get the project completed in less than 2 years.)
Heck for all we know they may very well be trying to do just that at this moment but also trying to maintain a revenue stream as well. (the problem with that theory though is that means it may well be another 5 to 10 years before we see the new system.)

[Sureshot]

well one thing that can be done is...
We as fans with the best interests of the company at heart could take it upon ourselves to help by collecting the rules together and setting them in a logical format and then presenting it to Kevin and Co.
Instead of just endlessly complaining about whats happening and waiting for them to do it. (if enough of us do this I think we might get the project completed in less than 2 years.)
Heck for all we know they may very well be trying to do just that at this moment but also trying to maintain a revenue stream as well. (the problem with that theory though is that means it may well be another 5 to 10 years before we see the new system.)

If anyone were to do this they should at least pay the person or people willing to do so minimum wage. Or at the very least advertise far and wide (no just on this website it's not far and wide imo) that fans went through the trouble and time to compile the rules. Not some passing mention in a Rifter or murmur. It should be front page new. If it is ever done. Not sure if it will do anything at this point. Yet it's better than nothing. Myself I will not participate. Too busy with my own problems. To fix someone else. Still I wish good luck to anyone who starts such a project.

[Sureshot]

Can we please stop with the whole "dumbing down" comment about rules in rpgs and the industry as a whole. Nothing wrong with making a system simpler and easier to use. When I'm either running or playing a rpg I want it to be fun not a chore. It's alos quite insulting. To me and others who like simpler easier systems. And while I was not refered to it's still a very uneeded blanket system. That does nothing to change the perception that the fanbase.

[Daeglan]

And that brings us to Palladiums current conundrum.
Do they stop producing for the year or two it will take to do this? (they are going to have to dedicate their full attention to just this project to get it done with any modicum of speed)
Or do they continue as they have producing new product?
One ensures a revenue of some sort the other is a huge gamble with no guarantee of success and a high probability of failure.

They are going to have to something imo to stop the downward spiral. Not right away yet imo they can't take forever like they did with the feedback threads. It took what almost two decades to acknowledge that they might need to clarify certain elements of the game. As I said would love to see a new edition. Yet understand that will not happen. The system needs to be streamlined, clarified and just plain spruced up to read better and easier. Stil I think they waited too damn long as a company to even attempt a streamlining. Stuck in a catch 22 of their own making. As well as some other outside factors. And keeping the system as is while insuring some sort of revenue it's also a slow steady loss of income. I'm not sure what can be done.

well one thing that can be done is...
We as fans with the best interests of the company at heart could take it upon ourselves to help by collecting the rules together and setting them in a logical format and then presenting it to Kevin and Co.
Instead of just endlessly complaining about whats happening and waiting for them to do it. (if enough of us do this I think we might get the project completed in less than 2 years.)
Heck for all we know they may very well be trying to do just that at this moment but also trying to maintain a revenue stream as well. (the problem with that theory though is that means it may well be another 5 to 10 years before we see the new system.)

I am willing to help. Sounds like you have a start on it.

[Daeglan]

Can we please stop with the whole "dumbing down" comment about rules in rpgs and the industry as a whole. Nothing wrong with making a system simpler and easier to use. When I'm either running or playing a rpg I want it to be fun not a chore. It's alos quite insulting. To me and others who like simpler easier systems. And while I was not refered to it's still a very uneeded blanket system. That does nothing to change the perception that the fanbase.

I agree.

[wyrmraker]

I think that we can all agree that the system as it is written has it's serious problems. But the anyone writing up a full, clarifying revision will take time, and it would take forever just to get released, if at all. After all, just how long have we been waiting for the two new Chaos Earth books? Or Mechanoids Space? The on-staff writers are fully involved in other projects, and some of the freelance writers are still waiting for their FINISHED books to hit print (Chaos Earth comes to mind again).

The fans could step up and repair the system, no problem. But fitting that in as Official Material gets problematic, as suddenly all of the previous books' core rules are rendered moot. And that causes problems both in the long and short term, both logically and monetarily.

Sadly, Palladium has delayed their promised books far too often to be reliable to book vendors, so most of the average vendors (Barnes & Noble, etc) just won't carry them on the shelves, partly due to lessened sales, and partly due to serious delays. Psyscape was delayed by a little over a year, as I recall.

While I love the setting, the system as it's written only truly works for the setting it was designed for: Palladium Fantasy. Everywhere else gets clunky, overcomplicated, and full of exploitation, as the system isn't properly designed to handle modern, futuristic, and super-powered roleplay styles.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Can we please stop with the whole "dumbing down" comment about rules in rpgs and the industry as a whole. Nothing wrong with making a system simpler and easier to use. When I'm either running or playing a rpg I want it to be fun not a chore. It's alos quite insulting. To me and others who like simpler easier systems. And while I was not refered to it's still a very uneeded blanket system. That does nothing to change the perception that the fanbase.

I agree that "dumbing down" is insulting and unnecessary--implying those who perfer simpler systems cannot understand a more complex one.

The problem is, I strongly disagree that all games should be simple to use. I agree that in the modern enviroment being very complex regulates one to niche status, the thing is, there is a niche market to appeal to, players who specifically want that kind of complexity in games. So it's equally fallicious to imply that simpler is objectivly better.

[wyrmraker]

I also agree that "dumbing down" of things would be a very bad thing. But the system for Rifts needs some extensive clarifications.

One of my longest standing questions is about the Gurgoyle Psynetic Crazy. 100% canon, no problem. Where is the canon ruling on how to combine permitted OCCs and RCCs?
What about the precentages of damage done by burst fired weapons for custom-built weaponry? Say, a gatling 12 gauge firing APRJ rounds. The rounds do 3d6 MD each. What does a 20 round burst do? What percentage of that maximum 360 MD is actually rolled for? Where is the canon ruling on this?

Therefore extensive clarifications are required. These base concepts should not have to be house ruled, especially if something exists by canon, but there are no rules for it (the custom firearm is a reasonable concept, but not 100% canon).

[Damian Magecraft]

I think that we can all agree that the system as it is written has it's serious problems. But the anyone writing up a full, clarifying revision will take time, and it would take forever just to get released, if at all. After all, just how long have we been waiting for the two new Chaos Earth books? Or Mechanoids Space? The on-staff writers are fully involved in other projects, and some of the freelance writers are still waiting for their FINISHED books to hit print (Chaos Earth comes to mind again).

The fans could step up and repair the system, no problem. But fitting that in as Official Material gets problematic, as suddenly all of the previous books' core rules are rendered moot. And that causes problems both in the long and short term, both logically and monetarily.

Sadly, Palladium has delayed their promised books far too often to be reliable to book vendors, so most of the average vendors (Barnes & Noble, etc) just won't carry them on the shelves, partly due to lessened sales, and partly due to serious delays. Psyscape was delayed by a little over a year, as I recall.

While I love the setting, the system as it's written only truly works for the setting it was designed for: Palladium Fantasy. Everywhere else gets clunky, overcomplicated, and full of exploitation, as the system isn't properly designed to handle modern, futuristic, and super-powered roleplay styles.

and just why would a clarified set of mechanics render the current books moot?
the system that is in place functions (if you can find it).
the objective would be to present that existing system in a manner that is easily followed by anyone.

[wyrmraker]

I think that we can all agree that the system as it is written has it's serious problems. But the anyone writing up a full, clarifying revision will take time, and it would take forever just to get released, if at all. After all, just how long have we been waiting for the two new Chaos Earth books? Or Mechanoids Space? The on-staff writers are fully involved in other projects, and some of the freelance writers are still waiting for their FINISHED books to hit print (Chaos Earth comes to mind again).

The fans could step up and repair the system, no problem. But fitting that in as Official Material gets problematic, as suddenly all of the previous books' core rules are rendered moot. And that causes problems both in the long and short term, both logically and monetarily.

Sadly, Palladium has delayed their promised books far too often to be reliable to book vendors, so most of the average vendors (Barnes & Noble, etc) just won't carry them on the shelves, partly due to lessened sales, and partly due to serious delays. Psyscape was delayed by a little over a year, as I recall.

While I love the setting, the system as it's written only truly works for the setting it was designed for: Palladium Fantasy. Everywhere else gets clunky, overcomplicated, and full of exploitation, as the system isn't properly designed to handle modern, futuristic, and super-powered roleplay styles.

and just why would a clarified set of mechanics render the current books moot?
the system that is in place functions (if you can find it).
the objective would be to present that existing system in a manner that is easily followed by anyone.

I do see your point, and it is an excellent one. But as I see the system, the refit required would force a complete rewrite of the base rules for the system, based on the setting (Rifts would have a different adjustment for rules than Heroes Unlimited). Not only would the rewrite be required, but also a conversion setup from the current rules to the new ones. I remember when GURPS went from 3rd Ed Rev to 4th Ed. There was a conversion FAQ for free download. More effort and paperwork, but not impossible, merely difficult. Plus getting that many fans to agree on one setup for the rewrite would be like getting Congress to agree on a controversial bill.

And PB would *still* have to meet their deadlines just to keep up with their competitors. That would actually be far more vital to the success of PB in general than a system rewrite.

[eliakon]

I think that we can all agree that the system as it is written has it's serious problems. But the anyone writing up a full, clarifying revision will take time, and it would take forever just to get released, if at all. After all, just how long have we been waiting for the two new Chaos Earth books? Or Mechanoids Space? The on-staff writers are fully involved in other projects, and some of the freelance writers are still waiting for their FINISHED books to hit print (Chaos Earth comes to mind again).

The fans could step up and repair the system, no problem. But fitting that in as Official Material gets problematic, as suddenly all of the previous books' core rules are rendered moot. And that causes problems both in the long and short term, both logically and monetarily.

Sadly, Palladium has delayed their promised books far too often to be reliable to book vendors, so most of the average vendors (Barnes & Noble, etc) just won't carry them on the shelves, partly due to lessened sales, and partly due to serious delays. Psyscape was delayed by a little over a year, as I recall.

While I love the setting, the system as it's written only truly works for the setting it was designed for: Palladium Fantasy. Everywhere else gets clunky, overcomplicated, and full of exploitation, as the system isn't properly designed to handle modern, futuristic, and super-powered roleplay styles.

and just why would a clarified set of mechanics render the current books moot?
the system that is in place functions (if you can find it).
the objective would be to present that existing system in a manner that is easily followed by anyone.

It would depend on how much change is done to 'clairify' things
if you do the smallest scale changes (same rules, just put them in the right order) its nothing. If you do the largest scale changes (overhaul armor ratings, overhaul ranged combat, overhauld MDC, redo weapons to fix range and damage scaling, fix issues with meta abilities like magic, psionics, phase, super powers......) you have essentially redone the whole line and will need to redo most every book, or publish extensive conversion notes....
so the FIRST thing that needs to be done in a discussion like this is to make sure everyone is talking about the same scale of a project here.

[Jedrious]

I think that we can all agree that the system as it is written has it's serious problems. But the anyone writing up a full, clarifying revision will take time, and it would take forever just to get released, if at all. After all, just how long have we been waiting for the two new Chaos Earth books? Or Mechanoids Space? The on-staff writers are fully involved in other projects, and some of the freelance writers are still waiting for their FINISHED books to hit print (Chaos Earth comes to mind again).

The fans could step up and repair the system, no problem. But fitting that in as Official Material gets problematic, as suddenly all of the previous books' core rules are rendered moot. And that causes problems both in the long and short term, both logically and monetarily.

Sadly, Palladium has delayed their promised books far too often to be reliable to book vendors, so most of the average vendors (Barnes & Noble, etc) just won't carry them on the shelves, partly due to lessened sales, and partly due to serious delays. Psyscape was delayed by a little over a year, as I recall.

While I love the setting, the system as it's written only truly works for the setting it was designed for: Palladium Fantasy. Everywhere else gets clunky, overcomplicated, and full of exploitation, as the system isn't properly designed to handle modern, futuristic, and super-powered roleplay styles.

and just why would a clarified set of mechanics render the current books moot?
the system that is in place functions (if you can find it).
the objective would be to present that existing system in a manner that is easily followed by anyone.

I do see your point, and it is an excellent one. But as I see the system, the refit required would force a complete rewrite of the base rules for the system, based on the setting (Rifts would have a different adjustment for rules than Heroes Unlimited). Not only would the rewrite be required, but also a conversion setup from the current rules to the new ones. I remember when GURPS went from 3rd Ed Rev to 4th Ed. There was a conversion FAQ for free download. More effort and paperwork, but not impossible, merely difficult. Plus getting that many fans to agree on one setup for the rewrite would be like getting Congress to agree on a controversial bill.

And PB would *still* have to meet their deadlines just to keep up with their competitors. That would actually be far more vital to the success of PB in general than a system rewrite.

Your point only makes sense if you assume that the entire system needs an overhaul, when what it really needs is a database with a well designed report structure.

[wyrmraker]

I think that we can all agree that the system as it is written has it's serious problems. But the anyone writing up a full, clarifying revision will take time, and it would take forever just to get released, if at all. After all, just how long have we been waiting for the two new Chaos Earth books? Or Mechanoids Space? The on-staff writers are fully involved in other projects, and some of the freelance writers are still waiting for their FINISHED books to hit print (Chaos Earth comes to mind again).

The fans could step up and repair the system, no problem. But fitting that in as Official Material gets problematic, as suddenly all of the previous books' core rules are rendered moot. And that causes problems both in the long and short term, both logically and monetarily.

Sadly, Palladium has delayed their promised books far too often to be reliable to book vendors, so most of the average vendors (Barnes & Noble, etc) just won't carry them on the shelves, partly due to lessened sales, and partly due to serious delays. Psyscape was delayed by a little over a year, as I recall.

While I love the setting, the system as it's written only truly works for the setting it was designed for: Palladium Fantasy. Everywhere else gets clunky, overcomplicated, and full of exploitation, as the system isn't properly designed to handle modern, futuristic, and super-powered roleplay styles.

and just why would a clarified set of mechanics render the current books moot?
the system that is in place functions (if you can find it).
the objective would be to present that existing system in a manner that is easily followed by anyone.

I do see your point, and it is an excellent one. But as I see the system, the refit required would force a complete rewrite of the base rules for the system, based on the setting (Rifts would have a different adjustment for rules than Heroes Unlimited). Not only would the rewrite be required, but also a conversion setup from the current rules to the new ones. I remember when GURPS went from 3rd Ed Rev to 4th Ed. There was a conversion FAQ for free download. More effort and paperwork, but not impossible, merely difficult. Plus getting that many fans to agree on one setup for the rewrite would be like getting Congress to agree on a controversial bill.

And PB would *still* have to meet their deadlines just to keep up with their competitors. That would actually be far more vital to the success of PB in general than a system rewrite.

Your point only makes sense if you assume that the entire system needs an overhaul, when what it really needs is a database with a well designed report structure.

I do indeed assert that the entire system needs a massive overhaul. And yes, a database with report structure would be immensely helpful. But I believe that my points still stand as stated.

[eliakon]

I think that we can all agree that the system as it is written has it's serious problems. But the anyone writing up a full, clarifying revision will take time, and it would take forever just to get released, if at all. After all, just how long have we been waiting for the two new Chaos Earth books? Or Mechanoids Space? The on-staff writers are fully involved in other projects, and some of the freelance writers are still waiting for their FINISHED books to hit print (Chaos Earth comes to mind again).

The fans could step up and repair the system, no problem. But fitting that in as Official Material gets problematic, as suddenly all of the previous books' core rules are rendered moot. And that causes problems both in the long and short term, both logically and monetarily.

Sadly, Palladium has delayed their promised books far too often to be reliable to book vendors, so most of the average vendors (Barnes & Noble, etc) just won't carry them on the shelves, partly due to lessened sales, and partly due to serious delays. Psyscape was delayed by a little over a year, as I recall.

While I love the setting, the system as it's written only truly works for the setting it was designed for: Palladium Fantasy. Everywhere else gets clunky, overcomplicated, and full of exploitation, as the system isn't properly designed to handle modern, futuristic, and super-powered roleplay styles.

and just why would a clarified set of mechanics render the current books moot?
the system that is in place functions (if you can find it).
the objective would be to present that existing system in a manner that is easily followed by anyone.

I do see your point, and it is an excellent one. But as I see the system, the refit required would force a complete rewrite of the base rules for the system, based on the setting (Rifts would have a different adjustment for rules than Heroes Unlimited). Not only would the rewrite be required, but also a conversion setup from the current rules to the new ones. I remember when GURPS went from 3rd Ed Rev to 4th Ed. There was a conversion FAQ for free download. More effort and paperwork, but not impossible, merely difficult. Plus getting that many fans to agree on one setup for the rewrite would be like getting Congress to agree on a controversial bill.

And PB would *still* have to meet their deadlines just to keep up with their competitors. That would actually be far more vital to the success of PB in general than a system rewrite.

Your point only makes sense if you assume that the entire system needs an overhaul, when what it really needs is a database with a well designed report structure.

I do indeed assert that the entire system needs a massive overhaul. And yes, a database with report structure would be immensely helpful. But I believe that my points still stand as stated.

This is what I was talking about, everyone has their own ideas of what it would take to 'fix' the game. THAT is probably the biggest reason that it isnt happening. Some people think it just needs a few tweaks, others it just needs to be better organized, still others think some speicfic part like magic, or ranged combat, or damage scaling needs to be changed. Untill a unified agreement on WHAT will constitute an acceptable 'fix' is reached any argument is fruitless since you don't have a common ground to discuss FROM.

[Nightmask]

Too bad they don't have 'boxed sets' like come out on occasion for AD&D, a simple stripped-down version of the game to introduce people to the game and draw in new players looking to get caught up in the full game.

[wyrmraker]

100% accurate assessment. Getting enough of us together to agree on all the problems, AS WELL AS the solutions...
Problematic doesn't begin to describe it. Nearly impossible is a better phrase.

[Killer Cyborg]

100% accurate assessment. Getting enough of us together to agree on all the problems, AS WELL AS the solutions...
Problematic doesn't begin to describe it. Nearly impossible is a better phrase.

I've tried to get people to try to focus on findin out what we can all agree needs to be changed, but too many seem too caught up in the "I am Palladium's only possible salvation" mentality to really listen or discuss, much less compromise.

[wyrmraker]

100% accurate assessment. Getting enough of us together to agree on all the problems, AS WELL AS the solutions...
Problematic doesn't begin to describe it. Nearly impossible is a better phrase.

I've tried to get people to try to focus on findin out what we can all agree needs to be changed, but too many seem too caught up in the "I am Palladium's only possible salvation" mentality to really listen or discuss, much less compromise.

Sadly, a common mentality. But getting enough of us to agree on and produce proper revision, and THEN getting KS to sign off on it...

Tricky

[Damian Magecraft]

I do indeed assert that the entire system needs a massive overhaul. And yes, a database with report structure would be immensely helpful. But I believe that my points still stand as stated.

This is what I was talking about, everyone has their own ideas of what it would take to 'fix' the game. THAT is probably the biggest reason that it isnt happening. Some people think it just needs a few tweaks, others it just needs to be better organized, still others think some speicfic part like magic, or ranged combat, or damage scaling needs to be changed. Untill a unified agreement on WHAT will constitute an acceptable 'fix' is reached any argument is fruitless since you don't have a common ground to discuss FROM.

And here in lies why the polls that were ran by the company a while back produced no action from the company. No one was willing to agree on what was wrong.
I said it before 90% of the "broken" crowd are just upset that rule XYZ is not what they want.
Just because something does not work the way you think it should does not mean it is broke.

That is why this project of mine is taking me so long... I have to refrain from inserting my own biases into the system.

[Sureshot]

I agree that "dumbing down" is insulting and unnecessary--implying those who perfer simpler systems cannot understand a more complex one.

The problem is, I strongly disagree that all games should be simple to use. I agree that in the modern enviroment being very complex regulates one to niche status, the thing is, there is a niche market to appeal to, players who specifically want that kind of complexity in games. So it's equally fallicious to imply that simpler is objectivly better.

I do agree that not every rpg had to be simplified or easier to use. Yet to equate those who like easier rules as "too stupid to get it" or "too lazy" is uncalled for imo. It a insult to myself. Others on this board and many others in the gaming community. And while there is a niche market to players who like a certain complexity it is a niche. I like Hero system it's pretty rules heavy and unlike the megaversal system truly generic. Yet while it's more of a comprehensive ruleset imo than say Savage worlds it still loses sales to SW because unlike the HS it's a less complex rules instensive system while also being quicker to setup. I get your pont yet imo it's the rules light comprehensive systems that receive proper errata that are getting the lions sales. I'm okay with that. Certainly prefer that than letting the hobby fade away. Since that helps everyone

[wyrmraker]

I do indeed assert that the entire system needs a massive overhaul. And yes, a database with report structure would be immensely helpful. But I believe that my points still stand as stated.

This is what I was talking about, everyone has their own ideas of what it would take to 'fix' the game. THAT is probably the biggest reason that it isnt happening. Some people think it just needs a few tweaks, others it just needs to be better organized, still others think some speicfic part like magic, or ranged combat, or damage scaling needs to be changed. Untill a unified agreement on WHAT will constitute an acceptable 'fix' is reached any argument is fruitless since you don't have a common ground to discuss FROM.

And here in lies why the polls that were ran by the company a while back produced no action from the company. No one was willing to agree on what was wrong.
I said it before 90% of the "broken" crowd are just upset that rule XYZ is not what they want.
Just because something does not work the way you think it should does not mean it is broke.

That is why this project of mine is taking me so long... I have to refrain from inserting my own biases into the system.

Bias is going to happen no matter what. The reason that Techno-Wizards tend to be like pulp aviator pilots is because of how KS originally envisioned them. So don't let your bias stop you. Examine why the bias exists, and then determine if it would improve the system overall.

[Sureshot]

This is what I was talking about, everyone has their own ideas of what it would take to 'fix' the game. THAT is probably the biggest reason that it isnt happening. Some people think it just needs a few tweaks, others it just needs to be better organized, still others think some speicfic part like magic, or ranged combat, or damage scaling needs to be changed. Untill a unified agreement on WHAT will constitute an acceptable 'fix' is reached any argument is fruitless since you don't have a common ground to discuss FROM.

In the end your not going to please everyone. What you need to please is the majority. If for example PB now makes a rule where mages can cast spells when taking damage. And at least 70% or more like the rule it's a official rule. If a system streamlining or a possible new edition is every attempted pleasing everyone should not be one of the goals. Or those who decide to undertake such a project will never get anything done. Stick to 70% or more majority when it comes to altering and streamlining the system and imo it will work in the end. Which is one of the two reasons I'm avoiding D&D 5E. Tired of picking up a new edition while having read what they offer does not interest me at all. If the development team insists on a 1005 approval from the fanbase on everything my advice don't waste your time or pb time. Nothing will get done. In the end something needs to be done. With or without 100% of the fanbase. Chances are those who don't want a streamlining are not going to buy a streamlined version in the first place.

What is also needed is a generic core megaversal book. Not a boxed set. Make it a simple no frills book. Illsutrations optinonal or minimal. Too bad KS is dead set against the idea of one. If anything it's imo a system that cries out for one.

[Damian Magecraft]

I do indeed assert that the entire system needs a massive overhaul. And yes, a database with report structure would be immensely helpful. But I believe that my points still stand as stated.

This is what I was talking about, everyone has their own ideas of what it would take to 'fix' the game. THAT is probably the biggest reason that it isnt happening. Some people think it just needs a few tweaks, others it just needs to be better organized, still others think some speicfic part like magic, or ranged combat, or damage scaling needs to be changed. Untill a unified agreement on WHAT will constitute an acceptable 'fix' is reached any argument is fruitless since you don't have a common ground to discuss FROM.

And here in lies why the polls that were ran by the company a while back produced no action from the company. No one was willing to agree on what was wrong.
I said it before 90% of the "broken" crowd are just upset that rule XYZ is not what they want.
Just because something does not work the way you think it should does not mean it is broke.

That is why this project of mine is taking me so long... I have to refrain from inserting my own biases into the system.

Bias is going to happen no matter what. The reason that Techno-Wizards tend to be like pulp aviator pilots is because of how KS originally envisioned them. So don't let your bias stop you. Examine why the bias exists, and then determine if it would improve the system overall.

And if I was creating my own game engine (based off Palladiums) then I would allow my bias to show.
But I am not doing that. I am trying to compile; organize; and consolidate the rules that already exist into a cohesive easily followed whole.

[wyrmraker]

I do indeed assert that the entire system needs a massive overhaul. And yes, a database with report structure would be immensely helpful. But I believe that my points still stand as stated.

This is what I was talking about, everyone has their own ideas of what it would take to 'fix' the game. THAT is probably the biggest reason that it isnt happening. Some people think it just needs a few tweaks, others it just needs to be better organized, still others think some speicfic part like magic, or ranged combat, or damage scaling needs to be changed. Untill a unified agreement on WHAT will constitute an acceptable 'fix' is reached any argument is fruitless since you don't have a common ground to discuss FROM.

And here in lies why the polls that were ran by the company a while back produced no action from the company. No one was willing to agree on what was wrong.
I said it before 90% of the "broken" crowd are just upset that rule XYZ is not what they want.
Just because something does not work the way you think it should does not mean it is broke.

That is why this project of mine is taking me so long... I have to refrain from inserting my own biases into the system.

Bias is going to happen no matter what. The reason that Techno-Wizards tend to be like pulp aviator pilots is because of how KS originally envisioned them. So don't let your bias stop you. Examine why the bias exists, and then determine if it would improve the system overall.

And if I was creating my own game engine (based off Palladiums) then I would allow my bias to show.
But I am not doing that. I am trying to compile; organize; and consolidate the rules that already exist into a cohesive easily followed whole.

I wish you the best of luck with that.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

One of the things i feel is pretty borked (especially since the rules changed out from underneath a lot of older weapons) about the Rifts portion of the system is that the weapons really need to be re-worked entirely to fit the new burst rules.

I might be willing to tackle that project when you get further along. With the books ive borrowed and my old collection, i have everything available except Black Market. I will probably get a gift card or three to Amazon or the like for Christmas - i read a novel a day so my family likes to buy me books - i might pick up Black Market.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Lets suppose that we get a community compiled rule revision rolling on the assumption of only a rule clarification at first. What would we do for aspects of the system that are completely absent from the rules?

Can you provide an example of the kind of thing you're talking about?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I think what Damian's doing, we wouldnt add those things, or even necessarily change things that are nonsensical (like shields taking damage when you use them to parry - as a re-enactor.. yeah, no. If you're using it right, there's only a few weapons that would hurt a well made shield and they were specifically made to deal with shields), because we're not changing things, just trying to get what is currently there in working order.

[Damian Magecraft]

I think what Damian's doing, we wouldnt add those things, or even necessarily change things that are nonsensical (like shields taking damage when you use them to parry - as a re-enactor.. yeah, no. If you're using it right, there's only a few weapons that would hurt a well made shield and they were specifically made to deal with shields), because we're not changing things, just trying to get what is currently there in working order.

I can see that, but when we clarify all these would we just copy and past what has already been written?

First step is to get what exists in order. The second step is to go through said material and flag whats missing or needs clarified. The 3rd step is Kevin's; he would have to resolve those flagged areas.

[Daeglan]

I agree. Maybe start with a google spreadsheet. Page number and such for places errors lie.

Once we have the errors outlined
Produce suggested corrections
Then *** areas that need clarification.
Turn into kevin.

[Sureshot]

Again the best of luck to whomever starts such a big project. Hopefully some good will come out of it and not get shelved away somewhere to be forgotten for the next 5-10 years.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

100% accurate assessment. Getting enough of us together to agree on all the problems, AS WELL AS the solutions...
Problematic doesn't begin to describe it. Nearly impossible is a better phrase.

I've tried to get people to try to focus on findin out what we can all agree needs to be changed, but too many seem too caught up in the "I am Palladium's only possible salvation" mentality to really listen or discuss, much less compromise.

I agree with you 100%, it's more about ego then anything else.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Too bad they don't have 'boxed sets' like come out on occasion for AD&D, a simple stripped-down version of the game to introduce people to the game and draw in new players looking to get caught up in the full game.

Last one I saw was about 2-3 years ago at target.

[Hotrod]

1. The system is broken because damage values belie common sense. A martial arts roundhouse kick should not do as much damage (3d6 SDC) as a claymore, unless your name is Chuck Norris! Nor should an infantry rifle do as much damage as a gigantic robot gun, when they're both made by the same manufacturer.

2. The system is broken because scaling is ludicrously uneven. A 50-foot robot should be somewhere around 800 times as tough and powerful and tough as a walking person.

3. The system is broken because it is not truly megaversal. Each game's rule sets are similar, but they are not interchangeable. A longbowman from Palladium Fantasy is used to fighting people who are -10 to dodge her arrows. In Rifts, everyone dodges those arrows without penalty.

4. The system is broken because too many bonuses are situation-specific, and tracking all the specifics is a nightmare. One minor example: A lightning rod (England, Herbology section) makes you lightning proof, but only if it's touching the ground... how do you determine when it's touching, exactly?

5. The system is broken because there are about 5 different rules on how to handle bursts. These variations are in books that are currently published and sold.

6. The system is broken because virtually no-one creates a character as described in the books. Rolling up stats and then picking an attribute-restricted class based on the randomized results is far to restricting. People will play the class they want to play.

7. The system is broken because it has no mechanics for retreating, surrender, or all kinds of other things that can happen in combat. It's also broken because there are alternate attack/melee round actions such as shooting arrows and casting spells that don't fit well into the melee round model.

8. The system is broken because technology-based classes are unsustainable away from a major military support facility. Ammunition, repairs, and e-clip replacement/recharging is far more expensive than what most players can hope to get in your average adventure.

9. The system is broken because you shouldn't need seven separate books to run through a one-theme campaign.

10. The system is broken because skill percentages and their interpretations often seem to be arbitrarily assigned to where a highly-trained specialist would often fail a basic skill check. Even for someone with a high skill, there seem to be many ways in the published material to penalize a skill check, but almost no ways to help it out.

[Jefffar]

Alright,

After several reports I have gone through the thread and applied warnings where I felt necessary.

Just a couple of reminders:

1) Constructive Criticism of Palladium is okay. Talk about how to fix problems all you want. As long as you aren't just sitting there bashing the company, the staff or the products there isn't a problem.

2) Sometimes people are not particularly careful about their phrasing of things. Try to give them the benefit of the doubt or ask for a clarification before hitting the report button. If the moderation team doesn't think the person is being intentionally jerkish they probably won't throw on a warning.

3) It's okay to disagree with each others posts and not like what each other has to say. Just keep your commentary to what was said, not those saying it.

Thread is re-opened.

[Galroth]

Alright cool
So this thread was drifting there anyways,
How many people would be willing to entertain the idea of some kind of communal rehash of the current rifts system mechanics?

I would forsake new mechanics to just get some better organization and a glossary.

[Damian Magecraft]

1. The system is broken because damage values belie common sense. A martial arts roundhouse kick should not do as much damage (3d6 SDC) as a claymore, unless your name is Chuck Norris! Nor should an infantry rifle do as much damage as a gigantic robot gun, when they're both made by the same manufacturer.this is based on opinion there are many other systems that have the exact same damage distribution and they are not considered broken for it.

2. The system is broken because scaling is ludicrously uneven. A 50-foot robot should be somewhere around 800 times as tough and powerful and tough as a walking person. again based on personal bias; this is not the only system with this so called scaling issue and they are not considered broken.

3. The system is broken because it is not truly megaversal. Each game's rule sets are similar, but they are not interchangeable. A longbowman from Palladium Fantasy is used to fighting people who are -10 to dodge her arrows. In Rifts, everyone dodges those arrows without penalty. Each setting gets its tweaks to better emulate the genre of choice. That is a feature not a bug.

4. The system is broken because too many bonuses are situation-specific, and tracking all the specifics is a nightmare. One minor example: A lightning rod (England, Herbology section) makes you lightning proof, but only if it's touching the ground... how do you determine when it's touching, exactly? wait its broken because of situational modifiers, GM calls and bookkeeping? you want something other than a RPG altogether...

5. The system is broken because there are about 5 different rules on how to handle bursts. These variations are in books that are currently published and sold. and are for different genres see above

6. The system is broken because virtually no-one creates a character as described in the books. Rolling up stats and then picking an attribute-restricted class based on the randomized results is far to restricting. People will play the class they want to play.no one does it that way in any other random char gen system either are they broken as well?

7. The system is broken because it has no mechanics for retreating, surrender, or all kinds of other things that can happen in combat. It's also broken because there are alternate attack/melee round actions such as shooting arrows and casting spells that don't fit well into the melee round model.No argument there... missing or incomplete rules are things we are looking to find and fix.

8. The system is broken because technology-based classes are unsustainable away from a major military support facility. Ammunition, repairs, and e-clip replacement/recharging is far more expensive than what most players can hope to get in your average adventure.this is a play style issue not a system one.

9. The system is broken because you shouldn't need seven separate books to run through a one-theme campaign.you do not NEED 7 books just 1 maybe 2 (if you count core as 1 of the 2) but more is helpful.

10. The system is broken because skill percentages and their interpretations often seem to be arbitrarily assigned to where a highly-trained specialist would often fail a basic skill check. Even for someone with a high skill, there seem to be many ways in the published material to penalize a skill check, but almost no ways to help it out.You do not roll for the basics just the high pressure/complexity situations... But that does need to be more clearly addressed in the skills section.

so out of 10 reasons why its broken you really only produced 2 actual issues that are not steeped in personal bias.
read the threads that Alex M started a while back... you will see the exact same thing.... tons of posts all based in personal biases of what poster XYZ thinks the system "should" be. but barely any on what is actually really wrong with the system.
now can you see the reason why the Company has done nothing?

[Daeglan]

1. The system is broken because damage values belie common sense. A martial arts roundhouse kick should not do as much damage (3d6 SDC) as a claymore, unless your name is Chuck Norris! Nor should an infantry rifle do as much damage as a gigantic robot gun, when they're both made by the same manufacturer.this is based on opinion there are many other systems that have the exact same damage distribution and they are not considered broken for it.

2. The system is broken because scaling is ludicrously uneven. A 50-foot robot should be somewhere around 800 times as tough and powerful and tough as a walking person. again based on personal bias; this is not the only system with this so called scaling issue and they are not considered broken.

3. The system is broken because it is not truly megaversal. Each game's rule sets are similar, but they are not interchangeable. A longbowman from Palladium Fantasy is used to fighting people who are -10 to dodge her arrows. In Rifts, everyone dodges those arrows without penalty. Each setting gets its tweaks to better emulate the genre of choice. That is a feature not a bug.

4. The system is broken because too many bonuses are situation-specific, and tracking all the specifics is a nightmare. One minor example: A lightning rod (England, Herbology section) makes you lightning proof, but only if it's touching the ground... how do you determine when it's touching, exactly? wait its broken because of situational modifiers, GM calls and bookkeeping? you want something other than a RPG altogether...

5. The system is broken because there are about 5 different rules on how to handle bursts. These variations are in books that are currently published and sold. and are for different genres see above

6. The system is broken because virtually no-one creates a character as described in the books. Rolling up stats and then picking an attribute-restricted class based on the randomized results is far to restricting. People will play the class they want to play.no one does it that way in any other random char gen system either are they broken as well?

7. The system is broken because it has no mechanics for retreating, surrender, or all kinds of other things that can happen in combat. It's also broken because there are alternate attack/melee round actions such as shooting arrows and casting spells that don't fit well into the melee round model.No argument there... missing or incomplete rules are things we are looking to find and fix.

8. The system is broken because technology-based classes are unsustainable away from a major military support facility. Ammunition, repairs, and e-clip replacement/recharging is far more expensive than what most players can hope to get in your average adventure.this is a play style issue not a system one.

9. The system is broken because you shouldn't need seven separate books to run through a one-theme campaign.you do not NEED 7 books just 1 maybe 2 (if you count core as 1 of the 2) but more is helpful.

10. The system is broken because skill percentages and their interpretations often seem to be arbitrarily assigned to where a highly-trained specialist would often fail a basic skill check. Even for someone with a high skill, there seem to be many ways in the published material to penalize a skill check, but almost no ways to help it out.You do not roll for the basics just the high pressure/complexity situations... But that does need to be more clearly addressed in the skills section.

so out of 10 reasons why its broken you really only produced 2 actual issues that are not steeped in personal bias.
read the threads that Alex M started a while back... you will see the exact same thing.... tons of posts all based in personal biases of what poster XYZ thinks the system "should" be. but barely any on what is actually really wrong with the system.
now can you see the reason why the Company has done nothing?

I do agree with his scaling issue. Scaling could use some work. Just because other systems suffer from this flaw does not mean it is not a flaw. It just means it is a tough nut to handle correctly.

That a Claymore should not do the same damage as a kick. But then I think Most of the missiles and explosives are very under powered. A kick certainly should do less damage than a claymore. Or more accurately a claymore should do more. Claymores make lumpy spaghetti sauce. Kicks might break bones and might kill if lucky or repeated enough. Not in the same realm damage wise.

One that might be good mook type class of some sort. This would help address some of the combat grind. D&D had a good mechanic for it.

On the skill issue. Skills ought to advance above 100% While a die roll of 99-00 should always be a failure. This will make it so those with high skills get effected by modifiers less while still having the potential to fail. It would also be good to have a degree of success mechanic of some sort. So when I succeed and the other guy succeeds who actually won? Perception should properly be fit into the skill system. the current method seems like a poorly implemented add on and does not take related skills or level into account.

The modifier system could use some streamlining. It is good to have them. It is better if they are easy to apply on the fly.

I agree many actions in combat are not handled well. I also do not see a method for handling hit locations. Are they random or considered to only hit the center of mass? are there modifiers for targeting specifics. This makes hitting a vampire in the heart annoying as the rules are not clear.

The Technology classes could do with some clarification. Namely on the issues he refers to as some game guidelines will help the play style issues. Formal rules on adding e-clip chargers to things like vehicles would fix a lot of this. The E-clip thread is a fine example of some solid guidelines would save a lot of headaches.

I agree you don't need 7 books. You can play with 1. 2 is helpful for the region you are in. As you travel others might become relevant.