Why is the system so broken?

[Jefffar]

Depends what else you do with it.

Tying it into getting knocked unconscious and the defects of stun type weapons would give heroes the option of knocking out bad guys with their fists instead of killing them . . . which doesn't matter as much most of the time in Rifts, but is far more important in Ninjas and Superspies or Heroes Unlimited for example.

You can find the rules for knocking folks out with a sap in Merc Ops (I believe its Merc Ops?)

You can also find taser weapons everywhere from World Book Australia to World Book Japan.

Which is part of the problem with the system.

The main rule book should cover basic elements about knocking people out and stun effects. Then if a weapon has a knock out or stun effect it should reference the centralized rule isntead of printing it's own specific unique rules.

One that has always bgged me is how Palladium laid out the rate of fire rules clearly int he main book, then went around and wrote weapon specific rate of fire rules for every pulse rifle, railgun ad automatic weapon.

Write the rules once, reference them frequently is simpler to do and easier to play with than rewriting the rules frequently.

[Jefffar]

Being able to quickly and easily house rule the system to suit your needs is a selling point.

Needing to house rule the system to make it work is a deficiency.

[Damian Magecraft]

Being able to quickly and easily house rule the system to suit your needs is a selling point.

Needing to house rule the system to make it work is a deficiency.

and that is where a lot of the break down in communication in this discussion comes from...
What is a "needed" House rule VS what is a "desired" House rule.
KCs original thread on this subject does a great deal in showing the "needed" vs the "desired"

[Chronicle]

The rules only seemed broken to me for a while (Complicated was more like it) but as you experience and gain experience in playing and running the game it goes much smoother. There are some bugs for sure, but those can be overcome pretty easily.

I agree with house ruling, Done so for perception often enough in the past (Though the rules for it currently are totally different from what we used to use in my old games.)

[Daeglan]

Personally, I think SDC should be bypassed by weapons and other potentially 'lethal' attacks.

Agreed.

would that not lead to the opposite problem? of rendering SDC meaningless?

Besides which isn't this again a 'I think that the rules should be' not a "the rules are broken because of X"

That said the 'cinimatics' are not a bug, they are a feature, the game was WRITTEN to be cinematic

Roll with strke could drop lethal attacks to SDC. Making that ability more important.

[Damian Magecraft]

Personally, I think SDC should be bypassed by weapons and other potentially 'lethal' attacks.

Agreed.

would that not lead to the opposite problem? of rendering SDC meaningless?

Besides which isn't this again a 'I think that the rules should be' not a "the rules are broken because of X"

That said the 'cinimatics' are not a bug, they are a feature, the game was WRITTEN to be cinematic

Roll with strke could drop lethal attacks to SDC. Making that ability more important.

true but its effectiveness is limited by the fact that it costs an action to use roll.

[Jefffar]

true but its effectiveness is limited by the fact that it costs an action to use roll.

Same could be said of Dodge (in most cases, though Auto-Dodge has gotten handed out pretty freely the last few years, still, there is Automatic Roll out there if you know where to look).

[Damian Magecraft]

true but its effectiveness is limited by the fact that it costs an action to use roll.

Same could be said of Dodge (in most cases, though Auto-Dodge has gotten handed out pretty freely the last few years, still, there is Automatic Roll out there if you know where to look).

thats an n&ss limited ability iirc...
i am sure there is a middle ground...
i just dont see it.

[Jefffar]

true but its effectiveness is limited by the fact that it costs an action to use roll.

Same could be said of Dodge (in most cases, though Auto-Dodge has gotten handed out pretty freely the last few years, still, there is Automatic Roll out there if you know where to look).

thats an n&ss limited ability iirc...
i am sure there is a middle ground...
i just dont see it.

it more or less requires ground up rebuild and codification of the Megaversal ruleset first so that you find all the rules in the core book for each setting and all the stats for things in the other books just reference you back to the rule book to see how they work.

At that stage if you feel the need to make tweaks to make something work in a particular wa it becomes fast and easy to do so.

[Sureshot]

And once again we venture into the wilds of "I think we need X" vs "the system needs X"

How so. Writing a small paragraph that alters the damage value in a eventual streamlined manuscript is not going to cause the system to collapse on itself. Or making the streamlining project a failure. Hell make it a optional rule so no one has to use it. The wonly damage values is one of the flaws held up to scrutiny when it comes to Rifts. Why not offer a optional rule to fix that.

[Sureshot]

Being able to quickly and easily house rule the system to suit your needs is a selling point.

Needing to house rule the system to make it work is a deficiency.

I was going to comment on mickeyknox77 yet Jeffar beat me to it. A system that requires house ruling to work is not going to be a selling point for any rpg. With respect mickeyknox77 a person interested in a rpg wants to use the rules as is out of the box. House rule only if they have to. Or desire to house rule. Otherwise it ends up being another version of a rpg heartbreaker. Too many Rifts is the equivlaent of that. A rpg that does not allow a person to house rule can be viewed as one with a flaw. Yet have yet to see one that does not allow it. I respect people who like to house rule. More power to you. I have yet to meet anyone who when buying a rpg goes "dammit the rules cover everything. It does not require me to house rule". While being unhappy. I have never come across that complaint. Stop acting like every other gamer is the carbon copy of yourselves. We are not. I house rule when I have to. Not because I have any great desire to do so. Which is not a bad thing. Call me pretentious again if you will. Yet your never ever going to alter my stance on house ruling. Or that it's a huge positive selling point.

What Damian and others are doing is something that PB should eventually advertise. Mention it from the start that it's not a new edition. A reworking and streamlining of older rules. Not just here. As many rpg forums as possible.

[eliakon]

And once again we venture into the wilds of "I think we need X" vs "the system needs X"

How so. Writing a small paragraph that alters the damage value in a eventual streamlined manuscript is not going to cause the system to collapse on itself. Or making the streamlining project a failure. Hell make it a optional rule so no one has to use it. The wonly damage values is one of the flaws held up to scrutiny when it comes to Rifts. Why not offer a optional rule to fix that.

Because now its 'I think the damage scaling is wrong, so we need to work on it' everyone has their opinions on what would make the system 'better' however the system does work with the damage as written, ergo its not broken. It may not be to some peoples tastes, but it works.

[Akashic Soldier]

A system that requires house ruling to work

True enough but that isn't Palladium's Megaversal System. For instance, I don't even really use House Rules and I run a successful game each week. The closest thing to "House Rules" I have in my games are as follows:

Unless your R.C.C. attributes tell you to roll an extra D6 when your attribute is over 16 than you do not.

This was instigated for a variety of reasons, but primarily because it is my understanding that is supposed to be how it works. If you refer to the Auto-G and the Devilman in R:DoNA you'll see they have the special advantage of being able to roll additional dice for certain high attributes listed in their R.C.C.

Likewise, I do not reward D-Bees for low attributes. If you roll 2D6 and get a 5, that doens't give you an additional 1D4+3 to another attribute; that is the cost of having higher stat dice somewhere else.

Next, I base strike rolls off Natural Numbers. This started out as a simple misunderstanding because my R:UE is missing a word "modified" (apparently). Regardless, I handle combat by saying that Melee Attacks need a Natural 5 or Higher to Strike and Ranged Attacks need a Natural 8 or Higher to strike. I've only ever had one player vehemently contest this but I ran six mock combats with my brothers and I still think combat is more interesting with the "mistaken" way I was doing it and helps "balance" things out a little more. "Yes, you can do 1D6x10 M.D. with a burst but you're less likely to hit than the guy doing 3D6 M.D. in close range combat." Also, it helps better simulate traditional cinematic gun fights where MOST of the attacks are pinging off the environment or whizzing overhead.

Other than that I do not use house rules and have no need to use them. Admittedly, I will limit my players character choices when starting a new game but that is so I can write stories for them that have a certain feel and not because I have some house rule against such characters. I guess my point here is that I have been running a successful Rifts games for over a year. They don't always go the way I like and sometimes I have to start over or hose out the problem players like rancid fishguts but its not a problem with the system. Its a problem with the way people are playing the game. Let me put it like this, ONE player I have ever had play, just ONE has ever had a hard time learning the system and its important to note that the ONLY reason he played was so he could say how crap the game was in an attempt to convince me to run a White Wolf's Exalted game instead.

And why? Because THAT is an easy game to break and he was a problem player/munchkin.

The flaw with having such a diverse system as Palladium is that it is actually harder to break. I know at first you think "Oh, this is so easy" and "Rifts is a munchkin game" but the fact is most of the time you are just lying to yourself. Seriously, think about it?

1. No Static Defenses: Anyone has a chance of getting a lucky blow.
2. Innovation/Contribution Based Experience Awards: Character's are encouraged for teamwork and how much they contribute instead of how many monsters they slay or how frequently they attend a game session. This is a major bane to many munchkins that lurk until they can lord (see below).
3. Power is immediate or slow to acquire: Most characters don't get much stronger as they level and are not going to become unpredictable messes that are difficult for a Game Master to manage. The exception to the rule are Practitioners of Magic (and to a much lesser degree psychics). This is balanced by the fact that these characters require significantly more experience than other characters and either cannot learn new abilities or only have access to abilities that the Game Master uses in his game in the first place. This is superior to in other systems where players have full control over their magical progression and can string/chain together powerful magical abilities that offset the "balance" of game. By which I mean, remove any real challenge. However, even if such characters are successful using the Palladium System (Its not impossible you just need to be high level or defeat some powerful sorcerers with the spells you desire and then recover their spell book), the fact is that such characters will find that they practically stop leveling because the experience point awards are primarily based of threat/difficulty. This means that munchkin-style play is automatically penalized.
4. No Perfection: In the Megaversal System even Zeus ****** up or has a bad day. This is a little bit of an extension of 1. No Static Defense but is significant enough to be mentioned as its own bullet point. No one has 99-100% in any skill. No one has the ability to effortlessly wave their hand and solve any problem. Everything has a response and for every situation there is something better and something worse. This flies in the face of a lot of Gamer's logic because they're used to the idea that a "level 10 character" should always beat a "level 1" character. In Palladium that just isn't true. Its all about specialty. Its all about YOUR character, CIRCUMSTANCE, and SITUATION! This means that the system should not be reduced to static "roll X and you win" or "roll Z and you fail." In Palladium nothing is inviolate. You can go fist to fist with Zeus and win--its not likely but it CAN be done--just like in mythology, on TV, or film.
5. S.D.C./M.D.C./Damage Complaints: If more people re-familiarized themselves with what S.D.C. and various damage-types and categories represented I don't think that there would be as many complaints. For example, during a game session one of my players (Troy) was reading Conversion Book 1 (revised) and he had to stop the game to tell everyone how AWESOME S.D.C. was. He thought it was SO COOL that we had finally found a roleplaying game that allowed him to be "beaten up" without dying just like in the movies. Building on that; personally as a Game Master I love M.D.C. because when the Player Characters/NPCs MISS I can do interesting things that change the terrain and make the combat scenes more interesting. Maybe a car explodes? Maybe they blow a hole in the wall and now they can escape or run for cover... or maybe the building starts to collapse and there are some innocent bystanders at risk (a perfect opportunity to earn some extra experience for heroics!)

I guess my point here is, if you're having a problem with the system... I think you are (or have been) using it wrong. You don't use a shovel to climb a wall anymore than you use a ladder to dig a hole. Sure, both can be made to work with enough ingenuity... but that is beside the point. What matters is EVERY WEEK (or every two weeks if there are personal dramas) I run a successful game using the Palladium Megaversal Rules system; my players laugh, do some truly amazing things, and they come back each week.

Heck, last weekend a Nightbane engulfed a Mega-Rex 'Bot that had initiated a nuclear destruct and contained the explosion. They died but it was heroic and impressive and that isn't the kind of thing that can happen in D&D or World of Darkness. That in and of itself says a lot about Palladium and just how epic and fun it can be.

How about the fact that you have handguns that can do just as much if not more damage then a mounted cannon on a giant robot? When power creep becomes unreasonable it becomes a fracture point.

My phone (that fits in my pocket) is several thousand times more powerful than the super computers they used to put man on the moon.

[Damian Magecraft]

And once again we venture into the wilds of "I think we need X" vs "the system needs X"

How so. Writing a small paragraph that alters the damage value in a eventual streamlined manuscript is not going to cause the system to collapse on itself. Or making the streamlining project a failure. Hell make it a optional rule so no one has to use it. The wonly damage values is one of the flaws held up to scrutiny when it comes to Rifts. Why not offer a optional rule to fix that.

Because now its 'I think the damage scaling is wrong, so we need to work on it' everyone has their opinions on what would make the system 'better' however the system does work with the damage as written, ergo its not broken. It may not be to some peoples tastes, but it works.

How about the fact that you have handguns that can do just as much if not more damage then a mounted cannon on a giant robot? When power creep becomes unreasonable it becomes a fracture point.

I said this earlier on that subject...

lets use a video game analogy...
how peeved off would you get if a modern vid game kills off your character and resets the game back to start with a one hit kill?
Better yet how long would you play that game before saying "the hell with this ****" and moving on to the next game?

I was reminded of this when I played one of my older video games that did not have a save function and I was killed by a one hit kill enemy and had to restart from the beginning causing me to replay 3hrs of progression. (which only reminded me why I never played the game anymore).

[Sureshot]

Heck, last weekend a Nightbane engulfed a Mega-Rex 'Bot that had initiated a nuclear destruct and contained the explosion. They died but it was heroic and impressive and that isn't the kind of thing that can happen in D&D or World of Darkness. That in and of itself says a lot about Palladium and just how epic and fun it can be.[/color]

See this is what bothers me about fans of the PB rule set. Somehow the PB rule set allows something that can't be offered in other games. With respect that is BS. It can't be done in D&D because it's a world that has no robots or high levels of technology. If it did it would have rules on how to handle robots and high technology. At least in D&D post 3E and up my mage does not have to worry about little timmy and his bag of rocks because he can cast a spell even if he takes 1 point of damage. Some arcane classes can wear armor and cast spells with no problem. Not the full wizard spell list yet they can. As for World of Darkness same thing. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Now if all three games allowed high technology and robots and magic that was useful against giant robots and technology. With rifts doing a better job. The I would concede that Rifts does it better. That like my group having a great game of battletech defeating a bunch of mechs in combat. Than saying "that isn't the kind of thing that can happen in Palladium Fantasy or Exalted. That in and of itself says a lot about Battletech and just how epic and fun it can be". Which would be BS on my part.

As for the rest of the post I agree with most of it. It's not that hard to house rule the PB rule setand it might be laziness on my part. Yet the rules as written make it a damn pain to do so. And no I have not been playing it wrong. Probalby playing longer than some on this board. Before some were born. I know the system inside and out. I also don't have too many house rules. Except the core rue book is so badly designed that everything is ll over the place. Rules tossed into areas that should be in chatper a are ion chapter b. The system is not perfect yet could be written better and easier. It just that I now have access to other rpgs that do the same thing that the PB rules set can do yet imo better and easier. So please don't talk down to me like I'm some new guy to the system because I'm not. quite frankly that's insulting. I respect you opinion on topics yet I expected better from you. Can the whole "Im so much smarter and better than you are in rifts" attiude. It's not the first time I have seen this from you. I hope it's the last.

My phone (that fits in my pocket) is several thousand times more powerful than the super computers they used to put man on the moon.

Still does not give a good reason for handguns being more powerful than a weapon on a 30 ft robot. Want to see technology modeled correctly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN3Jf7GlPg0 . Jump to the 5:09 mark in the video. The Protoss technology and equipment maybe light years ahead of what the terrans have yet nothing survives the blast from the laser drill. I see no valid reason why weapons damage values have to be so wonky.

[Daeglan]

A system that requires house ruling to work

True enough but that isn't Palladium's Megaversal System. For instance, I don't even really use House Rules and I run a successful game each week. The closest thing to "House Rules" I have in my games are as follows:

Unless your R.C.C. attributes tell you to roll an extra D6 when your attribute is over 16 than you do not.

This was instigated for a variety of reasons, but primarily because it is my understanding that is supposed to be how it works. If you refer to the Auto-G and the Devilman in R:DoNA you'll see they have the special advantage of being able to roll additional dice for certain high attributes listed in their R.C.C.

Likewise, I do not reward D-Bees for low attributes. If you roll 2D6 and get a 5, that doens't give you an additional 1D4+3 to another attribute; that is the cost of having higher stat dice somewhere else.

Next, I base strike rolls off Natural Numbers. This started out as a simple misunderstanding because my R:UE is missing a word "modified" (apparently). Regardless, I handle combat by saying that Melee Attacks need a Natural 5 or Higher to Strike and Ranged Attacks need a Natural 8 or Higher to strike. I've only ever had one player vehemently contest this but I ran six mock combats with my brothers and I still think combat is more interesting with the "mistaken" way I was doing it and helps "balance" things out a little more. "Yes, you can do 1D6x10 M.D. with a burst but you're less likely to hit than the guy doing 3D6 M.D. in close range combat." Also, it helps better simulate traditional cinematic gun fights where MOST of the attacks are pinging off the environment or whizzing overhead.

Other than that I do not use house rules and have no need to use them. Admittedly, I will limit my players character choices when starting a new game but that is so I can write stories for them that have a certain feel and not because I have some house rule against such characters. I guess my point here is that I have been running a successful Rifts games for over a year. They don't always go the way I like and sometimes I have to start over or hose out the problem players like rancid fishguts but its not a problem with the system. Its a problem with the way people are playing the game. Let me put it like this, ONE player I have ever had play, just ONE has ever had a hard time learning the system and its important to note that the ONLY reason he played was so he could say how crap the game was in an attempt to convince me to run a White Wolf's Exalted game instead.

And why? Because THAT is an easy game to break and he was a problem player/munchkin.

The flaw with having such a diverse system as Palladium is that it is actually harder to break. I know at first you think "Oh, this is so easy" and "Rifts is a munchkin game" but the fact is most of the time you are just lying to yourself. Seriously, think about it?

1. No Static Defenses: Anyone has a chance of getting a lucky blow.
2. Innovation/Contribution Based Experience Awards: Character's are encouraged for teamwork and how much they contribute instead of how many monsters they slay or how frequently they attend a game session. This is a major bane to many munchkins that lurk until they can lord (see below).
3. Power is immediate or slow to acquire: Most characters don't get much stronger as they level and are not going to become unpredictable messes that are difficult for a Game Master to manage. The exception to the rule are Practitioners of Magic (and to a much lesser degree psychics). This is balanced by the fact that these characters require significantly more experience than other characters and either cannot learn new abilities or only have access to abilities that the Game Master uses in his game in the first place. This is superior to in other systems where players have full control over their magical progression and can string/chain together powerful magical abilities that offset the "balance" of game. By which I mean, remove any real challenge. However, even if such characters are successful using the Palladium System (Its not impossible you just need to be high level or defeat some powerful sorcerers with the spells you desire and then recover their spell book), the fact is that such characters will find that they practically stop leveling because the experience point awards are primarily based of threat/difficulty. This means that munchkin-style play is automatically penalized.
4. No Perfection: In the Megaversal System even Zeus ****** up or has a bad day. This is a little bit of an extension of 1. No Static Defense but is significant enough to be mentioned as its own bullet point. No one has 99-100% in any skill. No one has the ability to effortlessly wave their hand and solve any problem. Everything has a response and for every situation there is something better and something worse. This flies in the face of a lot of Gamer's logic because they're used to the idea that a "level 10 character" should always beat a "level 1" character. In Palladium that just isn't true. Its all about specialty. Its all about YOUR character, CIRCUMSTANCE, and SITUATION! This means that the system should not be reduced to static "roll X and you win" or "roll Z and you fail." In Palladium nothing is inviolate. You can go fist to fist with Zeus and win--its not likely but it CAN be done--just like in mythology, on TV, or film.
5. S.D.C./M.D.C./Damage Complaints: If more people re-familiarized themselves with what S.D.C. and various damage-types and categories represented I don't think that there would be as many complaints. For example, during a game session one of my players (Troy) was reading Conversion Book 1 (revised) and he had to stop the game to tell everyone how AWESOME S.D.C. was. He thought it was SO COOL that we had finally found a roleplaying game that allowed him to be "beaten up" without dying just like in the movies. Building on that; personally as a Game Master I love M.D.C. because when the Player Characters/NPCs MISS I can do interesting things that change the terrain and make the combat scenes more interesting. Maybe a car explodes? Maybe they blow a hole in the wall and now they can escape or run for cover... or maybe the building starts to collapse and there are some innocent bystanders at risk (a perfect opportunity to earn some extra experience for heroics!)

I guess my point here is, if you're having a problem with the system... I think you are (or have been) using it wrong. You don't use a shovel to climb a wall anymore than you use a ladder to dig a hole. Sure, both can be made to work with enough ingenuity... but that is beside the point. What matters is EVERY WEEK (or every two weeks if there are personal dramas) I run a successful game using the Palladium Megaversal Rules system; my players laugh, do some truly amazing things, and they come back each week.

Heck, last weekend a Nightbane engulfed a Mega-Rex 'Bot that had initiated a nuclear destruct and contained the explosion. They died but it was heroic and impressive and that isn't the kind of thing that can happen in D&D or World of Darkness. That in and of itself says a lot about Palladium and just how epic and fun it can be.

How about the fact that you have handguns that can do just as much if not more damage then a mounted cannon on a giant robot? When power creep becomes unreasonable it becomes a fracture point.

My phone (that fits in my pocket) is several thousand times more powerful than the super computers they used to put man on the moon.

Actually you use more house rules than that. You do it when you make characters because the rules are messed up. and you do it whenever you do combat because the rules are messed. You likely use the rules as they are intended but not as they are written.

[eliakon]

A system that requires house ruling to work

<massive snip here>
[color=blue]True enough but that isn't Palladium's Megaversal System. For instance, I don't even really use

Actually you use more house rules than that. You do it when you make characters because the rules are messed up. and you do it whenever you do combat because the rules are messed. You likely use the rules as they are intended but not as they are written.

I presume you have played with him to know this right?
and yes, the steps are listed out of order....but I was not aware that it was set in stone that you had to go in that order? So yah, we have to read the instructions and then follow them, instead of slavishly following each dictate as written first with out any common sense at all....or not. Its inconvinent, but not broken

And how is combat broken precisly? As in, what is so broken that it cant be used as written?

[Akashic Soldier]

See this is what bothers me about fans of the PB rule set. Somehow the PB rule set allows something that can't be offered in other games. With respect that is BS. It can't be done in D&D because it's a world that has no robots or high levels of technology. If it did it would have rules on how to handle robots and high technology. At least in D&D post 3E and up my mage does not have to worry about little timmy and his bag of rocks because he can cast a spell even if he takes 1 point of damage.

He has to take 6. 6 points of damage to disrupt the spell. Most rocks and other small thrown projectiles only do 1D4 so you know... unless Timmy rolls maximum damage and has an exceptional P.S. that isn't a problem for the Palladium Practitioner of Magic either. (Refer to Mysteries of Magic for more information on disrupting spells). I actually love the Palladium magic system, it feels "mystic" and "occult."

Some arcane classes can wear armor and cast spells with no problem. Not the full wizard spell list yet they can. As for World of Darkness same thing. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

Its more like comparing one roleplaying game and its rule set to another. The rules as they are written in Palladium allowed the character to absorb the explosion so his companions were saved. No such rule exists in any of World of Darkness products or in Dungeons and Dragons. The explosion would have killed everyone.

Now if all three games allowed high technology and robots and magic that was useful against giant robots and technology. With rifts doing a better job. The I would concede that Rifts does it better. That like my group having a great game of battletech defeating a bunch of mechs in combat. Than saying "that isn't the kind of thing that can happen in Palladium Fantasy or Exalted. That in and of itself says a lot about Battletech and just how epic and fun it can be". Which would be BS on my part.

I'd rather you address the fact that for over a year I've had a successful game, many successful games, sometimes two or three in a week without need for "house rules" to make it work. That is my point. So you can imagine why it is frustrating for me and other fans who are familiar with the system and are having fun successful games when people claim "because it doesnt work the way I like there is something wrong with it." With all due respect (this HONESTLY is not a dig at you), it is my experience that a lot of people have opinions about what is BEST but don't REALLY give the consequences of these changes much thought.

As for the rest of the post I agree with most of it.

Thank you.

It's not that hard to house rule the PB rule setand it might be laziness on my part. Yet the rules as written make it a damn pain to do so. And no I have not been playing it wrong. Probalby playing longer than some on this board. Before some were born. I know the system insode and out

Then you should know how much fun it can be. Like with anything , if you look at it long enough you'll find things that look like flaws or could be done better. The same is true of ANYTHING though. Its part of the curse of being an intelligent person--there is always room for improvement. That said, I've thought the same thing and then seen myself be wrong when it was played out using the rules as written. Admittedly, this was for another game system but in principle its the same thing.

Palladium works, I know because I play in the most fun RPG I have ever gamed in every Saturday and its a Rifts game AND because I run a successful game each week without any real dramas.

Actually you use more house rules than that. You do it when you make characters because the rules are messed up. and you do it whenever you do combat because the rules are messed. You likely use the rules as they are intended but not as they are written.

Do you realize how rude and abrasive this statement is?

More importantly, I don't tell my players the rules for making their characters. I just give them guidelines and then "fact check" the final product. My players have the right to make their characters HOWEVER they like, in whatever order they prefer, so long as the finished product is rules legal. I would appreciate it if you did not tell me how I operate as a Game Master in the future, especially when you have never been in one of my games.

Likewise, no player has EVER had a hard time making a Palladium character as far as I know. Yes, sometimes it takes time (one time it took 6 hours) but most of that is because they were new to system and there were so many AWESOME options to choose from to make their character truly unique. Out of the 12 players I have introduced to the system and the 24 I have GMed for not one has ever complained to me about character creation being difficult to understand. That is 24/24.

[Damian Magecraft]

A system that requires house ruling to work

<massive snip here>
[color=blue]True enough but that isn't Palladium's Megaversal System. For instance, I don't even really use

Actually you use more house rules than that. You do it when you make characters because the rules are messed up. and you do it whenever you do combat because the rules are messed. You likely use the rules as they are intended but not as they are written.

I presume you have played with him to know this right?
and yes, the steps are listed out of order....but I was not aware that it was set in stone that you had to go in that order? So yah, we have to read the instructions and then follow them, instead of slavishly following each dictate as written first with out any common sense at all....or not. Its inconvinent, but not broken

And how is combat broken precisly? As in, what is so broken that it cant be used as written?

actually we do not have to play with him to know when he house rules at certain points...
any time you deviate from the Rules As Written (even if you are using the Rules As Intended) you have in fact House Ruled.
That is the point of this Thread. CLICK HERE.
All the answers you seek about what is actually broken can found there.
Yes they are "minor" breaks that are easily fixed with a simple re-wording and re-ordering.
But they still exist.
And are MAJOR stumbling blocks for gaining new players to the system.

[Akashic Soldier]

And are MAJOR stumbling blocks for gaining new players to the system.

Read my previous post.

Also, as a "new player" without anyone else to teach me there was a lot for me learn and I wanted things to be more structured but I got it after about two weeks of casual reading. I was making characters without any problem about 45 minutes after I got my book.

[eliakon]

A system that requires house ruling to work

<massive snip here>
[color=blue]True enough but that isn't Palladium's Megaversal System. For instance, I don't even really use

Actually you use more house rules than that. You do it when you make characters because the rules are messed up. and you do it whenever you do combat because the rules are messed. You likely use the rules as they are intended but not as they are written.

I presume you have played with him to know this right?
and yes, the steps are listed out of order....but I was not aware that it was set in stone that you had to go in that order? So yah, we have to read the instructions and then follow them, instead of slavishly following each dictate as written first with out any common sense at all....or not. Its inconvinent, but not broken

And how is combat broken precisly? As in, what is so broken that it cant be used as written?

actually we do not have to play with him to know when he house rules at certain points...
any time you deviate from the Rules As Written (even if you are using the Rules As Intended) you have in fact House Ruled.
That is the point of this Thread. CLICK HERE.
All the answers you seek about what is actually broken can found there.
Yes they are "minor" breaks that are easily fixed with a simple re-wording and re-ordering.
But they still exist.
And are MAJOR stumbling blocks for gaining new players to the system.

First though we have to make a semantics decision.
Is that order a RULE? no, seriously the steps themSELVES are rules, but is the order a rule? As pointed out in the thread several of the steps arnt even about characters ect. It looks to ME that its more of a 'here is how to use the rules' not a 'this is the rule follow it'. A guide on how to use the rules, is not a rule in and of itself.
Second, this STILL doesnt show me a step by step breakdown of how combat is inherantly broken. And before you say 'but you can only strike and dodge blah blah blah' I again say "is this the RULES or a guide" This isnt a milsim, there simply CAN NOT BE A RULE FOR EVERY POSSIBLE ACTION. So yah, the examples on how 'combat' works cover...well...combat.

[Damian Magecraft]

And are MAJOR stumbling blocks for gaining new players to the system.

Read my previous post.

Also, as a "new player" without anyone else to teach me there was a lot for me learn and I wanted things to be more structured but I got it after about two weeks of casual reading. I was making characters without any problem about 45 minutes after I got my book.

which only puts you in the minority.
Most new players these days do not want to take two weeks to "figure it out."
They want to be able to grasp the game after reading the rules the first time (not the 3rd, 12th, or 42nd time).
That is a Stumbling Block.
The fact that even experienced Palladium players can and still get surprised by finding rule XYZ which removes House Rule #152 is an indication that something is wrong with the presentation of the system.

[Damian Magecraft]

actually we do not have to play with him to know when he house rules at certain points...
any time you deviate from the Rules As Written (even if you are using the Rules As Intended) you have in fact House Ruled.
That is the point of this Thread. CLICK HERE.
All the answers you seek about what is actually broken can found there.
Yes they are "minor" breaks that are easily fixed with a simple re-wording and re-ordering.
But they still exist.
And are MAJOR stumbling blocks for gaining new players to the system.

First though we have to make a semantics decision.
Is that order a RULE? no, seriously the steps themSELVES are rules, but is the order a rule? As pointed out in the thread several of the steps arnt even about characters ect. It looks to ME that its more of a 'here is how to use the rules' not a 'this is the rule follow it'. A guide on how to use the rules, is not a rule in and of itself.
Second, this STILL doesnt show me a step by step breakdown of how combat is inherantly broken. And before you say 'but you can only strike and dodge blah blah blah' I again say "is this the RULES or a guide" This isnt a milsim, there simply CAN NOT BE A RULE FOR EVERY POSSIBLE ACTION. So yah, the examples on how 'combat' works cover...well...combat.

Yes order is part of the rules...
do you put the Icing on the cake before or after you bake it?

Combat covers combat? really? reading the rules on combat how do I cast a combat spell and at what point?
The rules are incomplete.
Its "easy" enough for experienced players to deduce the RAI from past experiences with other systems but RAI is not RAW.
if you cannot follow the game RAW there is a problem.
Is it an insurmountable one? no.
But it is a barrier to entry.

[Akashic Soldier]

which only puts you in the minority.

Story of my life.

However, of the 12 players I've introduced I've had no such issue so are they ALL the minority? Let me just ask my brother he is standing right here.

Duanne Gray: its easy you just have to pull your finger outta your ass and look at your class and race.

Alright, that was a little short and blunt... but you get the idea. Hold on I'll get him to expand on that a little more because he is saying more than he can be asked to type.

Duanne Gray: You look at your O.C.C (CLASS!) then you look at your R.C.C (RACE!) you wish to play and see if they're compatable thats all I do

Most new players these days do not want to take two weeks to "figure it out."

It took me two weeks to learn all of the rules in the R:UE and the R:GMG so that I could be a GOOD Game Master.

Again, it only took me 45 minutes and MOST of that was reading what O.C.C. I wanted to be. If anything, the HARDEST part of character creation I experienced was when my online Game Master at the time had all these custom house rules regarding W.P.s and would yell at me because I couldnt understand the need for his house rules when the W.P.s as written worked easily for me. Without second guessing the book to "fit their game" I found I could just look and say "Oh look +1 to strike at level one" and it was THAT simple. It was ONLY when it was made more complicated by the GM that I had a problem.

They want to be able to grasp the game after reading the rules the first time (not the 3rd, 12th, or 42nd time).

I only read the R:UE once.

The fact that even experienced Palladium players can and still get surprised by finding rule XYZ which removes House Rule #152 is an indication that something is wrong with the presentation of the system.

I admit, it could be better structured, but its hardly broken or unusable and if the GM does his job than the game runs smoothy and you'll find you hardly ever need house rules unless youre nit-picking over things like "Why doesn't my nuclear engine overheat?!" which simply is not important. It doesn't overheat because its technology 500 years more advanced to what we have on Earth today!

[Daeglan]

which only puts you in the minority.

Story of my life.

However, of the 12 players I've introduced I've had no such issue so are they ALL the minority? Let me just ask my brother he is standing right here.

Duanne Gray: its easy you just have to pull your finger outta your ass and look at your class and race.

Alright, that was a little short and blunt... but you get the idea. Hold on I'll get him to expand on that a little more because he is saying more than he can be asked to type.

Duanne Gray: You look at your O.C.C (CLASS!) then you look at your R.C.C (RACE!) you wish to play and see if they're compatable thats all I do

Most new players these days do not want to take two weeks to "figure it out."

It took me two weeks to learn all of the rules in the R:UE and the R:GMG so that I could be a GOOD Game Master.

Again, it only took me 45 minutes and MOST of that was reading what O.C.C. I wanted to be. If anything, the HARDEST part of character creation I experienced was when my online Game Master at the time had all these custom house rules regarding W.P.s and would yell at me because I couldnt understand the need for his house rules when the W.P.s as written worked easily for me. Without second guessing the book to "fit their game" I found I could just look and say "Oh look +1 to strike at level one" and it was THAT simple. It was ONLY when it was made more complicated by the GM that I had a problem.

They want to be able to grasp the game after reading the rules the first time (not the 3rd, 12th, or 42nd time).

I only read the R:UE once.

The fact that even experienced Palladium players can and still get surprised by finding rule XYZ which removes House Rule #152 is an indication that something is wrong with the presentation of the system.

I admit, it could be better structured, but its hardly broken or unusable and if the GM does his job than the game runs smoothy and you'll find you hardly ever need house rules unless youre nit-picking over things like "Why doesn't my nuclear engine overheat?!" which simply is not important. It doesn't overheat because its technology 500 years more advanced to what we have on Earth today!

Yes if someone wants to put in the effort they can learn the system. We are not looking for just the people who are not intimidated by the rules being written screwy. We are trying to grow the player base. In order to do that we need to shed the stigma of being a broken clunky system. That means not having stumbling blocks like the order of character generation being wrong and the combat system being clunky and flawed. The combat system needs to be complete. Many things are not included in the combat system and some of the systems are bolt ons that do not folloow the established system. For example perception.

I can never understand why it is we have to go through this argument about fixing the flaws so many times. Why are you afraid of fixing the flaws?

[Akashic Soldier]

Why are you afraid of fixing the flaws?

Because you're chasing shadows.

Observe. Player #3.

*snaps his fingers*

[Daeglan]

So what is the second step in the combat sequence? When in the combat sequence do you cast spells? What about the fact that according to the rules when someone has more attacks per melee they suddenly get a whole flurry of attacks all at ones that are done faster than all the other actions in a round? There are a lot of clunky implementations in the rules that could use clearing up and smoothing out. The fact that their books are not really carried by distributors or games stores should be a clue.

[Damian Magecraft]

*Player #3 appears from the shadows like those who walk the night eternal*

Hey, I recently started playing Rifts and I have been apart of 4 games and have so far found that the rules work quite well.

I have no idea why you think new players find character generation of the core rules terrible and/or hard to follow; the system works quite well and runs rather streamlined as long as everybody has READ and fully UNDERSTAND the rules. It's not difficult; you just need to actually know how it works.

did you learn them on your own or were you walked through it?
from what I have observed its the latter.
No one is saying the system has to be perfect but it does have to be better presented.

I have introduced multitudes of people to the game myself but that does not anyway mean the system is easy enough to grasp right out the gate.
If I had not ran demo games for those players I doubt that half of them would have bothered to give Palladium a second glance.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I have never had a problem creating a character using the Rules as Written if anything the only stumbling block for me is the Roleplaying aspect of the character the backstory crap.

Then you aren't following the rules as written.

[Akashic Soldier]

I have introduced multitudes of people to the game myself but that does not anyway mean the system is easy enough to grasp right out the gate.

I have gamed with a young boy (approximately age 9) and his sister of age 12. It only took them 5-10 minutes to learn how combat works. They loved it. Are you implying that the people you introduced to the game were all stupider than children? That is a loaded question but it is still valid. If children can learn how to play with little to no trouble, why is everyone else having a hard time?

Its easy to assume but the same thing could be said about ANY OTHER ROLE PLAYING GAME. Most people do not want to play new games. They want to play that one system they're familiar with. MOST of the time unless you run a game for someone than its unlikely they'll want to play it. Its only when someone's traditional game ends that a group of players tend to look for other systems.

And just so you know, I gave Player #3 World Book Japan (because he wanted to play some sort of "cool ninja") and the R:UE and I said, make a character. A week later he showed up with the character. He had NEVER played Rifts before.

[Akashic Soldier]

Alternatively it took my first group of players several sessions to learn parrying and other combat manuevers.

I cannot honestly believe this is true.

You've got:
Strike
Parry
Dodge (or Autododge if they have it)
Roll with Impact
Disarm (Rare) and explained clearly in combat manevours.
Entangle (Rare) see Disarm.

What is so difficult to understand?

You can "block" or "jump out of the way" or "try to brace yourself."

If your character wants to "knock a weapon out of someone's hand" that is a disarm. If they want to use their whip to tie someone up that "entangle," if they want to punch someone its a strike (different punches do different damage just like different weapons).

[Akashic Soldier]

I'm not saying its a common occurrence, I'm just saying that it happened. It was certainly a long and arduous process though.

Sorry Johhny, I just don't buy it. Like I said, I have had kids cotton onto it after about 4 actions so I refuse to accept that a group of grown men/women cannot grasp such a simple concept.

I had a problem with one player who took nearly half an hour per action, but that was because he was being a dick and trying to ruin the game for everyone else deciding whether or not to use "a long over head stroke" or "an off balancing stab to the upper torso." After about a minute he had determined he did not want either to be called shots.

I just cannot believe that you guys had such a hard time. Its just.. I cannot even comprehend that. I mean Joel got it after a few minutes of combat. What was the problem?!

[Damian Magecraft]

Alternatively it took my first group of players several sessions to learn parrying and other combat manuevers.

I cannot honestly believe this is true.

You've got:
Strike
Parry
Dodge (or Autododge if they have it)
Roll with Impact
Disarm (Rare) and explained clearly in combat manevours.
Entangle (Rare) see Disarm.

What is so difficult to understand?

You can "block" or "jump out of the way" or "try to brace yourself."

If your character wants to "knock a weapon out of someone's hand" that is a disarm. If they want to use their whip to tie someone up that "entangle," if they want to punch someone its a strike (different punches do different damage just like different weapons).

I'm not saying its a common occurrence, I'm just saying that it happened. It was certainly a long and arduous process though.

Its alot more common than you think...
Yes it reads simply enough but there are not enough CLEAR examples of how the combat system works or interacts.
And yes the examples of breaks KC and others have presented do require a literal and lineal interpretation of the RAW. But if the RAW cannot with stand that level of interpretation (which is the hobbyist's standard these days) then it is indeed broken.

[Daeglan]

Alternatively it took my first group of players several sessions to learn parrying and other combat manuevers.

I cannot honestly believe this is true.

You've got:
Strike
Parry
Dodge (or Autododge if they have it)
Roll with Impact
Disarm (Rare) and explained clearly in combat manevours.
Entangle (Rare) see Disarm.

What is so difficult to understand?

You can "block" or "jump out of the way" or "try to brace yourself."

If your character wants to "knock a weapon out of someone's hand" that is a disarm. If they want to use their whip to tie someone up that "entangle," if they want to punch someone its a strike (different punches do different damage just like different weapons).

Ever notice that they do not give you rules for doing things other than those? Or that a lot of those things are not covered very well. IE entangle. Not exactly clear. or consise.

[Damian Magecraft]

I'm not saying its a common occurrence, I'm just saying that it happened. It was certainly a long and arduous process though.

Sorry Johhny, I just don't buy it. Like I said, I have had kids cotton onto it after about 4 actions so I refuse to accept that a group of grown men/women cannot grasp such a simple concept.

I had a problem with one player who took nearly half an hour per action, but that was because he was being a dick and trying to ruin the game for everyone else deciding whether or not to use "a long over head stroke" or "an off balancing stab to the upper torso." After about a minute he had determined he did not want either to be called shots.

I just cannot believe that you guys had such a hard time. Its just.. I cannot even comprehend that. I mean Joel got it after a few minutes of combat. What was the problem?!

So anything that falls outside your realm of perception is automatically rejected?

[Daeglan]

I'm not saying its a common occurrence, I'm just saying that it happened. It was certainly a long and arduous process though.

Sorry Johhny, I just don't buy it. Like I said, I have had kids cotton onto it after about 4 actions so I refuse to accept that a group of grown men/women cannot grasp such a simple concept.

I had a problem with one player who took nearly half an hour per action, but that was because he was being a dick and trying to ruin the game for everyone else deciding whether or not to use "a long over head stroke" or "an off balancing stab to the upper torso." After about a minute he had determined he did not want either to be called shots.

I just cannot believe that you guys had such a hard time. Its just.. I cannot even comprehend that. I mean Joel got it after a few minutes of combat. What was the problem?!

I do. I see it all the time with new players who are new to gaming in general. Even in simpler game systems. People new to gaming take a little time to wrap their minds around gaming in my experience.

[Giant2005]

I'm not saying its a common occurrence, I'm just saying that it happened. It was certainly a long and arduous process though.

Sorry Johhny, I just don't buy it. Like I said, I have had kids cotton onto it after about 4 actions so I refuse to accept that a group of grown men/women cannot grasp such a simple concept.

I had a problem with one player who took nearly half an hour per action, but that was because he was being a dick and trying to ruin the game for everyone else deciding whether or not to use "a long over head stroke" or "an off balancing stab to the upper torso." After about a minute he had determined he did not want either to be called shots.

I just cannot believe that you guys had such a hard time. Its just.. I cannot even comprehend that. I mean Joel got it after a few minutes of combat. What was the problem?!

Me: Alright, the goon is armed and attacking, lets roll initiative
P1: Whats that
Me: to see whom goes first
P1: What do I do for that
Me: Roll a D20 and add your bonuses
A short time later
Me: Alright its your turn, what do you do?
P1: What do I do to shoot him?
Me: Roll a D20 to strike and add your bonuses
P1: Uhhh ok... [produces a number]
Me: alright hes gonna attack you with his knife
P1:...
Me: You wanna do anything?
P1: Can I?
Me: You can parry him remember? Just roll a D20 and add your bonuses.
P1: [number]

And this would continue on and on with the players not remembering what they can do or what to roll. Eventually it got beaten into them to just yell "Parry!" whenever they got a chance to do anything.

To be fair, Akashic said that people would get it after about 4 actions and from your recount or example, the player asked about his options and learned of the Parry process almost immediately.
Even now I usually ask the GM if I can parry or dodge whatever attack it is coming my way. No rules can take everything into account and it all requires GM supervision. Technically I can parry melee attacks and I know the rules but that doesn't mean I can parry the oak tree that He-Man is swinging at me.
No matter how experienced one is and this will apply to any system, those sorts of questions will always occur.

[Akashic Soldier]

Ever notice that they do not give you rules for doing things other than those? Or that a lot of those things are not covered very well. IE entangle. Not exactly clear. or consise.

Why can't you just read Entangle in combat maneuvers? That pretty much explains it well enough. There is what it does, how it works, how it can be used in attack or defense..? What more do you want?

Its alot more common than you think...

If I had experienced or seen even a single case of this being true I would concede but so far I have never witnessed this and I have gamed with approximately 35 different players in the last year alone. 0/35 is a pretty good track record to me. Like I said, I have only had 1 player complain about the system and he admitted out of his own mouth "I was just being a jerk. I just really wanted to play Exalted."

Yes it reads simply enough but there are not enough CLEAR examples of how the combat system works or interacts.
And yes the examples of breaks KC and others have presented do require a literal and lineal interpretation of the RAW. But if the RAW cannot with stand that level of interpretation (which is the hobbyist's standard these days) then it is indeed broken.

You CANNOT apply a literal interpretation to a system that is engineered to be flexible and simulation cinematic combat.

So anything that falls outside your realm of perception is automatically rejected?

Not at all. That is why I asked for specifics. You'll notice that is how I ended my sentence. I simply cannot fathom how someone could be so mentally deficient that they would be capable of playing a role playing game successful and NOT understand such basic and simple concepts. I would like to know. I really would. I enjoy learning. However, I do not believe it is entirely accurate or true OR the Game Master was trying to run the game without playing it through in his head or knowing the system and you'll find that is a problem for pretty much ANY game system.

I do. I see it all the time with new players who are new to gaming in general. Even in simpler game systems. People new to gaming take a little time to wrap their minds around gaming in my experience.

Then they miss out? I don't get your point here? Is it that gaming geeks are getting lazier because of video games? That rather than painting a picture with your imagination someone would rather see flashing lights and explosions? If so, I know. This doesn't mean there is a problem with the game though. Palladium was designed for advanced gamers, not guys that think they're nerds because Big Bang Theory is cool.

If you cant think and imagine, your time is better spent playing a video game. If you want a card that tells you what your attack option is than play D&D 4.e... waitaminute... 4.e has special attacks too, except they give their players cards. Maybe you could just print off a card with the "Entangle" description printed on it and give it to the players that can use that maneuver. Same thing, right?

Me: Alright, the goon is armed and attacking, lets roll initiative
P1: Whats that
Me: to see whom goes first
P1: What do I do for that
Me: Roll a D20 and add your bonuses
A short time later
Me: Alright its your turn, what do you do?
P1: What do I do to shoot him?
Me: Roll a D20 to strike and add your bonuses
P1: Uhhh ok... [produces a number]
Me: alright hes gonna attack you with his knife
P1:...
Me: You wanna do anything?
P1: Can I?
Me: You can parry him remember? Just roll a D20 and add your bonuses.
P1: [number]

*stares slack jawed*

So... in response to... "The guy is coming at you with a knife!" your player froze? Repeatedly? He didn't say... like... "I get out of the way" or "I am going to stab the bastard back at the same time!"

And this would continue on and on with the players not remembering what they can do or what to roll. Eventually it got beaten into them to just yell "Parry!" whenever they got a chance to do anything.

*clutches his head and curls into the fetal position*

I don't think role playing is your friends greatest strength my friend. I mean that in the kindest way possible. Maybe you guys would be happier playing video games or board games or something?

[Akashic Soldier]

Well you assume that they got it after 4 rounds when it was more like two games. I would seriously say "The goon goes at you with the knife" and then sit there and look at them for thirty seconds before just moving on. They had to be constantly reminded how the combat system worked. Eventually they got it, it just took a while.

That is why as a GM I always engage my players on a personal level...

"He dives over the table and snatches a knife from his boot and lunges at your throat! What do you do?!"

or

"They surround you and take aim. You've got a window of opportunity to act before they fill your body with white-hot plasma! You had better act fast! How do you respond?"

And so forth. This is actually gone into a little in the R:GMG.

[Akashic Soldier]

Correct, it was...bizzare to say the least.

Then you should know that isn't going to be a player's NORMAL response.

I've had girls I have dated game for **** and giggles and a few of them had never gamed in their life and they sure as heck knew how to declare defenses.

I find as a GM the easiest way is letting your players TELL YOU what they do then telling them the rules mechanics for that and showing them where it is in the book. Then they retain it and it keeps your game creative, inspired, and fun!

[Damian Magecraft]

Ever notice that they do not give you rules for doing things other than those? Or that a lot of those things are not covered very well. IE entangle. Not exactly clear. or consise.

Why can't you just read Entangle in combat maneuvers? That pretty much explains it well enough. There is what it does, how it works, how it can be used in attack or defense..? What more do you want?I was asked this once before and answered it in a thread discussion you took part of. We wont go into all of it... just the relevant sections.

Section seven: covers the basics of combat (HTH skills go in the skills section not here), Lists all combat options (dodge, parry, etc.), defines them, clarifies them, adjusts the more easily abused options (A limit on the number of simultaneous attacks per melee for example)
Subsection 7A: covers melee combat (with easily followed example that demonstrates all options)
Subsection 7B: Covers ranged combat (with easily followed example that demonstrates all options)
Subsection 7C: Covers Magic combat (with easily followed example that demonstrates all options)
Subsection 7D: Covers Psionic combat (with easily followed example that demonstrates all options)
Subsection 7E: Covers Superpower Combat (with easily followed example that demonstrates all options)
Subsection 7F: covers how A through E interact with each other. (with easily followed example that demonstrates all options)

This is what we are asking for. Something; that to put it in your words (or at least how they are coming across...); any "moron" could follow.

Its alot more common than you think...

If I had experienced or seen even a single case of this being true I would concede but so far I have never witnessed this and I have gamed with approximately 35 different players in the last year alone. 0/35 is a pretty good track record to me. Like I said, I have only had 1 player complain about the system and he admitted out of his own mouth "I was just being a jerk. I just really wanted to play Exalted."
just because you have never personally experienced it does not make it untrue.

Yes it reads simply enough but there are not enough CLEAR examples of how the combat system works or interacts.
And yes the examples of breaks KC and others have presented do require a literal and lineal interpretation of the RAW. But if the RAW cannot with stand that level of interpretation (which is the hobbyist's standard these days) then it is indeed broken.

You CANNOT apply a literal interpretation to a system that is engineered to be flexible and simulation cinematic combat. oddly enough there are other cinematic systems out there that make this assumption a false one.

So anything that falls outside your realm of perception is automatically rejected?

Not at all. That is why I asked for specifics. You'll notice that is how I ended my sentence. I simply cannot fathom how someone could be so mentally deficient that they would be capable of playing a role playing game successful and NOT understand such basic and simple concepts. I would like to know. I really would. I enjoy learning. However, I do not believe it is entirely accurate or true OR the Game Master was trying to run the game without playing it through in his head or knowing the system and you'll find that is a problem for pretty much ANY game system.I have seen multiple EXPERIENCED gamers (who have played systems far more complex than Palladium) have trouble with the active combat system that is Palladium. Not just the "I parry" and the die vs die aspect but the myriad of options that go with it.

I do. I see it all the time with new players who are new to gaming in general. Even in simpler game systems. People new to gaming take a little time to wrap their minds around gaming in my experience.

Then they miss out? I don't get your point here? Is it that gaming geeks are getting lazier because of video games? That rather than painting a picture with your imagination someone would rather see flashing lights and explosions? If so, I know. This doesn't mean there is a problem with the game though. Palladium was designed for advanced gamers, not guys that think they're nerds because Big Bang Theory is cool. and back in the day that approach was perfectly fine... It is not ok anymore. When Palladium was introduced there was no true #2, #3, #4, or #5 competing game. Back then players were looking for an alternative to D&D and were used to the concept that we had to take a hammer to RPG rules sets.
The New Generation Gamer does not have that mind set, for good or ill, it matters not; that is the reality.
Now when they go looking for that alternative game the market is flooded with them. If your system is not clearly laid out and easy to follow they will just move on to one that is.

If you cant think and imagine, your time is better spent playing a video game. If you want a card that tells you what your attack option is than play D&D 4.e... waitaminute... 4.e has special attacks too, except they give their players cards. Maybe you could just print off a card with the "Entangle" description printed on it and give it to the players that can use that maneuver. Same thing, right? Elitist attitudes is one of the biggest stumbling blocks for introducing new players as well. And no printing up cards is not the same as the company actively working to fix issues with the system.

Me: Alright, the goon is armed and attacking, lets roll initiative
P1: Whats that
Me: to see whom goes first
P1: What do I do for that
Me: Roll a D20 and add your bonuses
A short time later
Me: Alright its your turn, what do you do?
P1: What do I do to shoot him?
Me: Roll a D20 to strike and add your bonuses
P1: Uhhh ok... [produces a number]
Me: alright hes gonna attack you with his knife
P1:...
Me: You wanna do anything?
P1: Can I?
Me: You can parry him remember? Just roll a D20 and add your bonuses.
P1: [number]

*stares slack jawed*

So... in response to... "The guy is coming at you with a knife!" your player froze? Repeatedly? He didn't say... like... "I get out of the way" or "I am going to stab the bastard back at the same time!"

And this would continue on and on with the players not remembering what they can do or what to roll. Eventually it got beaten into them to just yell "Parry!" whenever they got a chance to do anything.

*clutches his head and curls into the fetal position*

I don't think role playing is your friends greatest strength my friend. I mean that in the kindest way possible. Maybe you guys would be happier playing video games or board games or something?

And here we see that elitist attitude yet again... Just because you and your circle of friends "got it" right the first time makes them no better than Johnnycat and his circle.

[Damian Magecraft]

Also, every hand to hand form I can think off the top of my head has the option to Roll with Punch Fall and Impact (PFI) as of Ultimate Edition.

yes they do but it is not auto-roll (completely different animal).

[Nightmask]

I'm not saying its a common occurrence, I'm just saying that it happened. It was certainly a long and arduous process though.

Sorry Johhny, I just don't buy it. Like I said, I have had kids cotton onto it after about 4 actions so I refuse to accept that a group of grown men/women cannot grasp such a simple concept.

I had a problem with one player who took nearly half an hour per action, but that was because he was being a dick and trying to ruin the game for everyone else deciding whether or not to use "a long over head stroke" or "an off balancing stab to the upper torso." After about a minute he had determined he did not want either to be called shots.

I just cannot believe that you guys had such a hard time. Its just.. I cannot even comprehend that. I mean Joel got it after a few minutes of combat. What was the problem?!

I do. I see it all the time with new players who are new to gaming in general. Even in simpler game systems. People new to gaming take a little time to wrap their minds around gaming in my experience.

It's a common fallacy people fall into, overgeneralizing from personal experience. They see X happen and so are certain that X must be common because it happened for them even when X isn't common so they dismiss every instance where someone tells them that no they've either not seen X happen or that they've rarely seen X happen.

[Damian Magecraft]

I'm not saying its a common occurrence, I'm just saying that it happened. It was certainly a long and arduous process though.

Sorry Johhny, I just don't buy it. Like I said, I have had kids cotton onto it after about 4 actions so I refuse to accept that a group of grown men/women cannot grasp such a simple concept.

I had a problem with one player who took nearly half an hour per action, but that was because he was being a dick and trying to ruin the game for everyone else deciding whether or not to use "a long over head stroke" or "an off balancing stab to the upper torso." After about a minute he had determined he did not want either to be called shots.

I just cannot believe that you guys had such a hard time. Its just.. I cannot even comprehend that. I mean Joel got it after a few minutes of combat. What was the problem?!

I do. I see it all the time with new players who are new to gaming in general. Even in simpler game systems. People new to gaming take a little time to wrap their minds around gaming in my experience.

It's a common fallacy people fall into, overgeneralizing from personal experience. They see X happen and so are certain that X must be common because it happened for them even when X isn't common so they dismiss every instance where someone tells them that no they've either not seen X happen or that they've rarely seen X happen.

and as is evidenced by this statement...
the converse is true as well.

[Akashic Soldier]

Ok there has been a lot of sledging going on, time for the opinion of the everyday guy. Firstly, I have never run a game so I dare not comment from a GM position. But, I have played D&D ( and all the realms and both 2nd and 3rd editions or whatever), white wolf, exalted, hunter, rifts, Star Wars, vampire, werewolf blah blah! I've played in more games then I can remember. Every time I played a new game it took a fairly long time to learn, change and adapt to each one. And Rifts was no difference for me again, it was no easier nor harder than any system I have participated in. So I don't think that all this should be such a big deal. It's normal. You get used to something, anything, even being completely new you need to adapt your thinking to be able to play in the game at hand, we have all experienced that.

The main difference I have found is a truly positive one, in that in palladium, the background and flavour text available to everything plays on the imagination, and once your imagination is racing, the rules are up to the GM. Meaning the rules are there in the book, and we all follow them as they are the rules, but any player that is trying to "rules lawyer" with the GM is not in the moment. They aren't in the game. They are just looking for an advantage over they're other players. Mmmm, seems to me that a lot of people are missing out on a lot of real fun whilst trying to work out who's more right than someone else?

If anyone is "interested" in this game setting, then they will love it once they get a chance to read thru some of the setting, and finally, with a little guidance they will work it out because they will love all of this just as the rest of us and that guidance must come from us. House rules or not, each GM will interpret the books slightly different. If the GM is clear from the start, does it really make a difference. Your game doesn't hurt my game and I wouldn't say that game is better than they're game...

I like my game, cause its my game!
Wouldn't change it for anything

"I'm am Jack Ryder! I am nothing special, but today, I am your hero."

Good post man. Well said.

In regard to the "elitist" remark, I never claimed I was BETTER. Just that from the sound of things they do not sound well-suited to role playing. Besides, Johnny and I talked through it and he admitted that it was more of an exception rather than the rule. I just sincerely believe, some people are good at gaming and other people are not. I've gamed with people who are not my friends who I would say are "good gamers" too that is one of the many benefits of the internet. Sure, some have stank more than a dead cat on a hot strip of road but some of them are very good players. Like I said earlier... I have gamed with 30+ people this year and none of them (not one) have complained about the difficulty of character generation.

Also, its not a fallacy Nightmask. It is an observation. Until my observation is proven to be wrong it is fact. At least to me. As Jack just said, its your game and your game doesn't hurt my game... but until I meet a player who says "I don't understand" than I am going to continue to oppose the view--the nauseating concept--that a nine year old and a twelve year old can have fun playing the game and understand the rules but a grown adult with a complete grasp of their mental facilities cannot... or that it would take multiple sessions. The whole notion just boggles the mind.

[Killer Cyborg]

I have never had a problem creating a character using the Rules as Written if anything the only stumbling block for me is the Roleplaying aspect of the character the backstory crap.

You may have never had a problem, but that's because you never used the rules as written.

Read the Character creation rules.
You're instructed to roll for attributes BEFORE you pick an OCC or RCC.
So you roll ALL 8 attributes BEFORE you decide whether you're going to be a human or a dragon, for example: before you even know what dice to use.
Those are the rules As Written.

[Killer Cyborg]

I have no idea why you think new players find character generation of the core rules terrible and/or hard to follow; the system works quite well and runs rather streamlined as long as everybody has READ and fully UNDERSTAND the rules. It's not difficult; you just need to actually know how it works.

Then it should be easy for you to answer the following questions:
1. How does the C-12 rifle work currently? How did it work originally?
2. Can simultaneous attacks be used during ranged combat?
3. When rolling for attributes, do you have to roll them all in order, or can you place the rolls wherever you like?
4. When making a long burst with a firearm, is the damage inflicted on the first attack, or on the second attack?
5. Do Full Conversion Borgs have a Physical Endurance attribute?
6. What is the falling damage for mega-damage creatures?
7. How does Supernatural Strength damage interact with melee weapons such as vibro-blades?
8. Do Neural Maces work on supernatural creatures or mega-damage beings?
9. If a character has 1 MDC left in his armor, and the character his hit by an energy blast for 100 Mega-Damage, what happens?
10. A character in Mega-Damage body armor (50 MDC) is attacked by a man with an assault rifle. The attacker fires a long burst, inflicting 149 SDC. Is the mega-damage armor harmed?

[Killer Cyborg]

You CANNOT apply a literal interpretation to a system that is engineered to be flexible and simulation cinematic combat.

Why not?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Too bad palludium books doesn't have a strip down version of the system, which just contains the basics and a limited skill selection, with a opening adventure, where KS offers pointers.

I have a feeling some want a shake and bake game with shake and bake characters. Which is something this system isn't.

[Hotrod]

I have no idea why you think new players find character generation of the core rules terrible and/or hard to follow; the system works quite well and runs rather streamlined as long as everybody has READ and fully UNDERSTAND the rules. It's not difficult; you just need to actually know how it works.

Then it should be easy for you to answer the following questions:
1. How does the C-12 rifle work currently? How did it work originally?
2. Can simultaneous attacks be used during ranged combat?
3. When rolling for attributes, do you have to roll them all in order, or can you place the rolls wherever you like?
4. When making a long burst with a firearm, is the damage inflicted on the first attack, or on the second attack?
5. Do Full Conversion Borgs have a Physical Endurance attribute?
6. What is the falling damage for mega-damage creatures?
7. How does Supernatural Strength damage interact with melee weapons such as vibro-blades?
8. Do Neural Maces work on supernatural creatures or mega-damage beings?
9. If a character has 1 MDC left in his armor, and the character his hit by an energy blast for 100 Mega-Damage, what happens?
10. A character in Mega-Damage body armor (50 MDC) is attacked by a man with an assault rifle. The attacker fires a long burst, inflicting 149 SDC. Is the mega-damage armor harmed?

1. It's a single shot weapon! That is to say, it can fire bursts, but only... bah, I dunno.
2. Woah. I never even thought of that, but it's genius, especially for someone driving a robot that cannot dodge. I guess so, if only to help out those under-armored giants. Of course, I'd have to house-rule it, since it's all weird and stuff.
3. I guess you could interchange them for humans, but not for most other species that have more or less dice for specific attributes. The books don't specify, though.
4. ... uh ... I know! Take the damage, divide it by two, and apply on both! If your character gets knocked off his feet halfway through, then only half of it hits... ah nuts, I just made a house rule.
5. Um... ? Your name is KILLER CYBORG. I'll let you take this one.
6. Ok, so I actually have a physics-based answer for this one. You treat the falling MDC creature as if another creature its exact weight was hitting it... and I'm house-ruling again
7. You add the punch damage. Is that a house rule?
8. According to Dead Boy's story, yes. Since it's the best piece of Rifts fiction I've read, consider it canon.
9. I thought it was settled that the GI Joe rule will protect that shot, but no more. Is that not canon?
10. Since each individual bullet does less than 100 damage, I would say no, but according to RUE, it's an SDC weapon that's doing more than 100 damage in a single 'attack'. Furthermore, the TW machine gun from the old RMB didn't do MDC with individual shots... ah, nuts, I dunno.

Hrmph. Perhaps some complex combat examples would help out.