Mutants in orbit question. It's a book I don't have yet

Jay05 · Unread post by **Jay05** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:03 pm

So, what's the deal with Archie 7? I'm guessing it's a seperate AI built on the same/ similar specs as Earth's Archie-3 right? Are the two mad machines aware of each other's existence? I looke in the search engine and didn't find a thread that had the info I was looking for.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:10 pm

Archie-7 is a computer similar to Archie-3, but less powerful and not sentient. It is aware of the communications that Archie-3 and his minions are bouncing off of its satellites but doesn't care. Archie-3 is unaware that Archie-7 exists, he only knows that the satellites are accepting his access codes.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:24 pm

Jay05 wrote:So, what's the deal with Archie 7? I'm guessing it's a seperate AI built on the same/ similar specs as Earth's Archie-3 right? Are the two mad machines aware of each other's existence? I looke in the search engine and didn't find a thread that had the info I was looking for.

Glistam pretty much has the gist of it, although ARCHIE-7 isn't built using the same kind of specs as ARCHIE-3, as ARCHIE-4 was and it failed during the Cataclysm so 7 is a completely machine design different from ARCHIE-3.

Jay05 · Unread post by **Jay05** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:31 pm

Ok, thanks to both of you.

DhAkael · Unread post by **DhAkael** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:45 pm

Yeah... ARCHIE 7 is a TI-44 Texas Instruments tape-drive run home "computer" in comparrison to the Living Toaster ;-)

Jay05 · Unread post by **Jay05** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:17 pm

LOL, ok I was just currious what the connection was since I don't have MIO

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:21 pm

Why is it that the earlier versions of ARCHIE (and/or Brainiac) always turn out to be so much more villainous and effective? Not to downplay the competency of our Legion friend.

Nekira Sudacne · Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:33 pm

For the same reason being exposed to radioactive waste gives the first guy superpowers and every subsequent guy cancer. The only way it can remain interesting is if it remains unique.

Jay05 · Unread post by **Jay05** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:09 pm

Hmm, here's an interesting question then, and again, from the perspective of someone who doesn't own MIO. If Archie3 became aware of Archie 7, hmm, possible software download "upgrades" using the already accessed satellites from A3 to A7 meaning making A7 more like big brother for the purposes of expanding his (their) range/capability? Just a thought

Nekira Sudacne · Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:18 pm

I don't think so. The secret of ARCHIE's intelligence is in the hardware arctexture, not just the software. The things that make ARCHIE 3 sentient are not and cannot be made compatible with ARCHIE 7.

SAMASzero · Unread post by **SAMASzero** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:29 pm

Actually, A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven's hardware is Superior to Archie 3.

The thing is, Seven doesn't have the centuries of experience and isolation that A.R.C.H.I.E. Three had, and is likely to be upgraded to/replaced by A.R.C.H.I.E. Eight long before it has the chance to evolve into something like Archie 3.

Nekira Sudacne · Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:39 pm

SAMASzero wrote:Actually, A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven's hardware is Superior to Archie 3.

The thing is, Seven doesn't have the centuries of experience and isolation that A.R.C.H.I.E. Three had, and is likely to be upgraded to/replaced by A.R.C.H.I.E. Eight long before it has the chance to evolve into something like Archie 3.

superior dosn't mean compatible. especially if it's centuries old.

Comrade Corsarius · Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:49 pm

DhAkael wrote:Yeah... ARCHIE 7 is a TI-44 Texas Instruments tape-drive run home "computer" in comparrison to the Living Toaster

Amusingly, I have a still-working Sinclair ZX81 in the cupboard next to my computer.

Jay05 · Unread post by **Jay05** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:33 pm

Comrade Corsarius wrote:
DhAkael wrote:Yeah... ARCHIE 7 is a TI-44 Texas Instruments tape-drive run home "computer" in comparrison to the Living Toaster

Amusingly, I have a still-working Sinclair ZX81 in the cupboard next to my computer.

Wow dude that is seriously old school! lol

Akashic Soldier · Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:36 pm

Glistam wrote:Archie-7 is a computer similar to Archie-3, but less powerful and not sentient. It is aware of the communications that Archie-3 and his minions are bouncing off of its satellites but doesn't care. Archie-3 is unaware that Archie-7 exists, he only knows that the satellites are accepting his access codes.

Did you read his write up? :lol:

A.R.C.H.I.E. 7 is the most advanced/sophisticated computer in the galaxy. It is not sapient like A3 but its smarter and more efficient.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:40 pm

SAMASzero wrote:Actually, A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven's hardware is Superior to Archie 3.

The thing is, Seven doesn't have the centuries of experience and isolation that A.R.C.H.I.E. Three had, and is likely to be upgraded to/replaced by A.R.C.H.I.E. Eight long before it has the chance to evolve into something like Archie 3.

It's only superior from a limited perspective, it certainly can't evolve because ARCHIE-7 is pure machine and neither sentient nor self-aware which makes ARCHIE-3 quite superior in comparison. ARCHIE-3 has also had human minds linked to it to provide it with some of its experience and knowledge, nothing about ARCHIE-7 indicates it was ever given that kind of information and if anything its write-up makes it pretty clear that it wasn't ever done that way. There's also no mention of there being any kind of new version in the works since the current one has worked for centuries without problems and the colony has yet to expand to the point that it's not capable of keeping up with its requirements.

Killer Cyborg · Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:55 pm

Archie Three is generally inferior, but is alive, and has psychic powers, which compensates for a lot.
ARCHIE 7 is not alive, but is also not insane. That also compensates for a lot.

Akashic Soldier · Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:31 pm

Nightmask wrote:ARCHIE-7 is pure machine and neither sentient nor self-aware.

You should read the definition of a neural intelligence according to R:SB1r and take into account that A7 is the very pinnacle of that technology. The short version is that A7 IS sentient and is more than self-aware, it is empathic and able to cater to the specific needs of the entire C.A.N. Republic.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:43 pm

Akashic Soldier wrote:
Glistam wrote:Archie-7 is a computer similar to Archie-3, but less powerful and not sentient. It is aware of the communications that Archie-3 and his minions are bouncing off of its satellites but doesn't care. Archie-3 is unaware that Archie-7 exists, he only knows that the satellites are accepting his access codes.

Did you read his write up?

A.R.C.H.I.E. 7 is the most advanced/sophisticated computer in the galaxy. It is not sapient like A3 but its smarter and more efficient.

I guess it all depends on how you define power. I think the point though is that Archie-3 is not the same computer as Archie-7.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:45 pm

Akashic Soldier wrote:
Nightmask wrote:ARCHIE-7 is pure machine and neither sentient nor self-aware.

You should read the definition of a neural intelligence according to R:SB1r and take into account that A7 is the very pinnacle of that technology. The short version is that A7 IS sentient and is more than self-aware, it is empathic and able to cater to the specific needs of the entire C.A.N. Republic.

You should read the write-up on ARCHIE-7 that states that it is NOT sentient nor is it self-aware, nor is it even remotely empathic nor is it a neural intelligence. You are in error on all counts. Nor for that matter is it the 'most advanced AI in the galaxy'.

Jay05 · Unread post by **Jay05** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:58 pm

Hey guys, my question has been answered. No need for this to devolve

Akashic Soldier · Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:08 pm

Nightmask wrote:You should read the write-up on ARCHIE-7 that states that it is NOT sentient nor is it self-aware, nor is it even remotely empathic nor is it a neural intelligence. You are in error on all counts. Nor for that matter is it the 'most advanced AI in the galaxy'.

I've provided exact quotes for you from the book a year or so ago in my "space" thread when I first joined the forum and Nightmask ignored those as well despite me taking them directly from the book so I am not going to continue this conversation with Nightmask. Anyone who is interested can read MIO (look at the write up for the C.A.N. Republic) and look at R:SB1r definition of neural intelligences and the explanation on what A.R.C.H.I.E. series robots are and then take into account that A-7 is 4 models higher than the 3 model and made out of technology more than 100 years more advanced than A-3 and all of a sudden you start to see things in perspective.

Or ignore the content of the books and make the assumption that just because A-3 is more well-known, insane, and ruled by emotions that makes it "better" than A-7 automatically... its just in my opinion the evidence as presented and as written is contrary to this. A-3 is smart and impressive but because it is in the same system as A-7 (even the same dimension) and it says in MIO that A-7 is more sophisticated and superior (and again in Aftermath if I recall correctly?), than I am going to believe that.

It doesn't mean A-3 is a pile of **** or isn't a serious threat, it just means that A-7 is a more powerful/more intelligent machine. As I have mentioned before, according to the write up The C.A.N. have advanced technologies that would be considered to be magic by he standards of the technology on Rifts Earth. Maybe we don't see it in their machines of war but they do have it (it says they do) and before anyone says "but they don't have anti-gravity" and "because they don't have anti-grav AK is an idiot that hasen't thought this through" I want you to keep in mind I addressed this in my Rifts Space thread too. The short answer is "they have nothing to gain from having artificial gravity, they have "evolved" to live in space and they can just insta-borg anyone they need to deal with G-Forces or put them in VRRDs-based technology.

In conclusion, its your game and do as you like... but scoffing at A-7 is like scoffing at an iphone because you have put sentimental stickers all over your Pentium so it has "more personality." It doesnt ACTUALLY make it a better machine. A.R.C.H.I.E. Three cannont even function at full efficiency without a human interface. A-7 operates the entirety of the C.A.N. automatically unless someone steps in and stops it.

Jay05 wrote:Hey guys, my question has been answered. No need for this to devolve

Sorry man. MIO is a good book, not A LOT you can do with it but very interesting and captivating.

Jay05 · Unread post by **Jay05** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:16 pm

Oh,I think I definitely need to get MIO after reading all this! I just didn't want you guys to start at each other over this on my thread. Like I said AS, my question was asked and answered to my satisfaction. I think I'll have it locked.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:18 pm

Akashic Soldier wrote:
Nightmask wrote:You should read the write-up on ARCHIE-7 that states that it is NOT sentient nor is it self-aware, nor is it even remotely empathic nor is it a neural intelligence. You are in error on all counts. Nor for that matter is it the 'most advanced AI in the galaxy'.

I've provided exact quotes for you from the book a year or so ago in my "space" thread when I first joined the forum and Nightmask ignored those as well despite me taking them directly from the book so I am not going to continue this conversation with Nightmask. Anyone who is interested can read MIO (look at the write up for the C.A.N. Republic) and look at R:SB1r definition of neural intelligences and the explanation on what A.R.C.H.I.E. series robots are and then take into account that A-7 is 4 models higher than the 3 model and made out of technology more than 100 years more advanced than A-3 and all of a sudden you start to see things in perspective.

You can claim whatever you like, but it's stated in the book that ARCHIE-7 is NOT self-aware or sentient, no matter what you want to believe the book makes it clear that what you're stating is not canon material. Just as its your fanon opinion it has empathy when it does not as empathy is not a requirement to see to the needs of a living being only knowledge of what said being needs to live.

Akashic Soldier · Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:22 pm

Nightmask wrote:You can claim whatever you like, but it's stated in the book that ARCHIE-7 is NOT self-aware or sentient, no matter what you want to believe the book makes it clear that what you're stating is not canon material. Just as its your fanon opinion it has empathy when it does not as empathy is not a requirement to see to the needs of a living being only knowledge of what said being needs to live.

It sees the population of The C.A.N. as component pieces of its body. Anyway, as I just said anyone can just read the book and make their mind up for themselves. There are plenty of places to get further clarification. From the definition of A.R.C.H.I.E. series machines (R:SB1r) to MIO and Aftermath 109 P.A.

So yeah... *dusts hands*

So long as people have the tools to find out the truth for themselves my job here is done.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:25 pm

Jay05 wrote:Oh,I think I definitely need to get MIO after reading all this! I just didn't want you guys to start at each other over this on my thread. Like I said AS, my question was asked and answered to my satisfaction. I think I'll have it locked.

It's a good book, I enjoy rereading it when I've the time to. Outside various scientific errors that one can handwave away so they don't bog things down it's filled with a range of useful details and concepts for space activities.

Blindscout · Unread post by **Blindscout** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:43 pm

Nightmask wrote:
Jay05 wrote:Oh,I think I definitely need to get MIO after reading all this! I just didn't want you guys to start at each other over this on my thread. Like I said AS, my question was asked and answered to my satisfaction. I think I'll have it locked.

It's a good book, I enjoy rereading it when I've the time to. Outside various scientific errors that one can handwave away so they don't bog things down it's filled with a range of useful details and concepts for space activities.

I second this. It's a book worth having. :-D

Jay05 · Unread post by **Jay05** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:51 am

Ok, Yep I definitely to get it.

Ectoplasmic Bidet · Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:24 am

I was actually disappointed with the Mutants in Orbit book. The information was too sparse and not terribly well presented, especially with the attempt to make the it relevant to both AtB and Rifts.

Jay05 · Unread post by **Jay05** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:36 am

Well, it sounds like it has info I could use on multiple levels, so I'll probably get it.

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:50 pm

The question is - has Archie 3 upgraded himself with the help of the Mechanoids... it could in theory let him be the most powerful computer in the universe.

Ectoplasmic Bidet · Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:11 pm

Tiree wrote:The question is - has Archie 3 upgraded himself with the help of the Mechanoids... it could in theory let him be the most powerful computer in the universe.

It's certainly possible that Archie 3 has been able to upgrade his tech base and his "body" - the factory complex that that he views as an extension of himself - but the actual unit that contains his wetware is self-contained and not likely built with upgrades or alterations in mind. He might be able to do something to enhance himself, but it would be a lot like a human performing brain surgery on themselves.

azazel1024 · Unread post by **azazel1024** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:46 am

Just because a computer is a neural network design and just because it is an Artifical Intelligence doesn't necessarily make it self aware on the same level that ARCHIE 3 is. ARCHIE 3 is for all intents and purposes an extremely smart, but insane person in how we define self awareness and sentients.

ARCHIE 7 is not self aware and sentient on the same level that ARCHIE 3 or most humans/beings are. It IS an Artifical Intelligence and its hardware is based on a more advanced neural network design than ARCHIE 3. That doesn't make it self aware or sentient. It is capable of learning, heuristics, "guess work", playing hunches, etc (or so I'd assume)...but that doesn't necessarily mean it demonstrates, understands or posesses emotions, a sense of self, self reflection, etc.

If anyone has read the Voyage of the Star Wolf series by David Gerrold, there is a resonably good comparison there between different advanced AIs (Harlie vs Lenny series of AIs) for how different AIs can behave, act and function. I would argue in either case, that neither were truely sentient, but they also operated pretty differently (LENNY series being so much more like ARCHIE 3, HARLIE series so much more like ARCHIE 7 probably is).

I doubt ARCHIE 3 would be able to take over ARHCIE 7. Nor the other way around. ARCHIE 7 most likely ignores ARCHIE 3 because 3 doesn't seem to be a threat to the CAN republic or to 7 itself and its access codes are correct. If it were to change, that ARHCIE 3 seemed to be a threat to the CAN republic or 7 in anyway, or was exceeding its access rights, I'd be my bottom dollar ARCHIE 7 would react with extreme predjudice.

Jay05 · Unread post by **Jay05** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:09 am

azazel1024 wrote:Just because a computer is a neural network design and just because it is an Artifical Intelligence doesn't necessarily make it self aware on the same level that ARCHIE 3 is. ARCHIE 3 is for all intents and purposes an extremely smart, but insane person in how we define self awareness and sentients.

ARCHIE 7 is not self aware and sentient on the same level that ARCHIE 3 or most humans/beings are. It IS an Artifical Intelligence and its hardware is based on a more advanced neural network design than ARCHIE 3. That doesn't make it self aware or sentient. It is capable of learning, heuristics, "guess work", playing hunches, etc (or so I'd assume)...but that doesn't necessarily mean it demonstrates, understands or posesses emotions, a sense of self, self reflection, etc.

If anyone has read the Voyage of the Star Wolf series by David Gerrold, there is a resonably good comparison there between different advanced AIs (Harlie vs Lenny series of AIs) for how different AIs can behave, act and function. I would argue in either case, that neither were truely sentient, but they also operated pretty differently (LENNY series being so much more like ARCHIE 3, HARLIE series so much more like ARCHIE 7 probably is).

I doubt ARCHIE 3 would be able to take over ARHCIE 7. Nor the other way around. ARCHIE 7 most likely ignores ARCHIE 3 because 3 doesn't seem to be a threat to the CAN republic or to 7 itself and its access codes are correct. If it were to change, that ARHCIE 3 seemed to be a threat to the CAN republic or 7 in anyway, or was exceeding its access rights, I'd be my bottom dollar ARCHIE 7 would react with extreme predjudice.

All very good points. Thank you

DhAkael · Unread post by **DhAkael** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:50 pm

Jay05 wrote:
azazel1024 wrote:Just because a computer is a neural network design and just because it is an Artifical Intelligence doesn't necessarily make it self aware on the same level that ARCHIE 3 is. ARCHIE 3 is for all intents and purposes an extremely smart, but insane person in how we define self awareness and sentients.

ARCHIE 7 is not self aware and sentient on the same level that ARCHIE 3 or most humans/beings are. It IS an Artifical Intelligence and its hardware is based on a more advanced neural network design than ARCHIE 3. That doesn't make it self aware or sentient. It is capable of learning, heuristics, "guess work", playing hunches, etc (or so I'd assume)...but that doesn't necessarily mean it demonstrates, understands or posesses emotions, a sense of self, self reflection, etc.

If anyone has read the Voyage of the Star Wolf series by David Gerrold, there is a resonably good comparison there between different advanced AIs (Harlie vs Lenny series of AIs) for how different AIs can behave, act and function. I would argue in either case, that neither were truely sentient, but they also operated pretty differently (LENNY series being so much more like ARCHIE 3, HARLIE series so much more like ARCHIE 7 probably is).

I doubt ARCHIE 3 would be able to take over ARHCIE 7. Nor the other way around. ARCHIE 7 most likely ignores ARCHIE 3 because 3 doesn't seem to be a threat to the CAN republic or to 7 itself and its access codes are correct. If it were to change, that ARHCIE 3 seemed to be a threat to the CAN republic or 7 in anyway, or was exceeding its access rights, I'd be my bottom dollar ARCHIE 7 would react with extreme predjudice.

All very good points. Thank you

Then you have the higher mark Bolo's (MkXXIV and up); eventually having fully sentient and even 'emotional' (though THAT is a rare occurence) multi-kilotonne land-battleship tanks, that for the most part are the most incorruptable and noble of warriors bar-none.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:29 pm

Why is Archie 3 insane? Does SB1 list what insanities he has?

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:20 pm

Tor wrote:Why is Archie 3 insane? Does SB1 list what insanities he has?

When your described as 'having gone insane' and are meglomaniacl, delusional, etc....you might be insane, even if they dont make a list of the 'insanities' that KS loves to put in his books. Its more of a 'your totally sociapathic and psychotic' rather than 'you have a phobia of spiders'

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:28 pm

azazel1024 wrote:Just because a computer is a neural network design and just because it is an Artifical Intelligence doesn't necessarily make it self aware on the same level that ARCHIE 3 is. ARCHIE 3 is for all intents and purposes an extremely smart, but insane person in how we define self awareness and sentients.

ARCHIE 7 is not self aware and sentient on the same level that ARCHIE 3 or most humans/beings are. It IS an Artifical Intelligence and its hardware is based on a more advanced neural network design than ARCHIE 3. That doesn't make it self aware or sentient. It is capable of learning, heuristics, "guess work", playing hunches, etc (or so I'd assume)...but that doesn't necessarily mean it demonstrates, understands or posesses emotions, a sense of self, self reflection, etc.

If anyone has read the Voyage of the Star Wolf series by David Gerrold, there is a resonably good comparison there between different advanced AIs (Harlie vs Lenny series of AIs) for how different AIs can behave, act and function. I would argue in either case, that neither were truely sentient, but they also operated pretty differently (LENNY series being so much more like ARCHIE 3, HARLIE series so much more like ARCHIE 7 probably is).

I doubt ARCHIE 3 would be able to take over ARHCIE 7. Nor the other way around. ARCHIE 7 most likely ignores ARCHIE 3 because 3 doesn't seem to be a threat to the CAN republic or to 7 itself and its access codes are correct. If it were to change, that ARHCIE 3 seemed to be a threat to the CAN republic or 7 in anyway, or was exceeding its access rights, I'd be my bottom dollar ARCHIE 7 would react with extreme predjudice.

ARCHIE-7 ignores ARCHIE-3 because it's programming includes a directive to never reveal itself or allow for those on Earth to discover its or the CAN Republic's existence, so while it knows ARCHIE-3 is using one of the CAN's satellite's its programming means it never communicates with its ancestor.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:31 pm

Tor wrote:Why is Archie 3 insane? Does SB1 list what insanities he has?

It couldn't handle the total destruction if the village where it was trying to restart civilization at the hands of the Splugorth and its feelings of total helplessness. It shut down and in its dream-time it went from the good, ready to help others, being it was into the 'got to conquer them all!' insane being it became. That failure still haunts it though hence it's hesitance to actively try and take over as it never coped with that first failure (much like the Watchers in the Marvel Universe had ONE failure and promptly swore off ever trying to help anyone ever again and in the billions of years since have never figured out in spite of all that watching that you don't respond to failure by hiding away never trying anything ever again).

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:30 pm

eliakon wrote:When your described as 'having gone insane'

I don't like that, it's too vague.

eliakon wrote:meglomaniacl

Megalomania is more of a personality variant than an insanity, no?

eliakon wrote:delusional

What is ARCHIE deluded about?

Nightmask wrote:the 'got to conquer them all!' insane being it became.

What is insane about wanting to conquer others?

Akashic Soldier · Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:03 am

Tor wrote:
eliakon wrote:When your described as 'having gone insane'
I don't like that, it's too vague.

eliakon wrote:meglomaniacl
Megalomania is more of a personality variant than an insanity, no?

eliakon wrote:delusional
What is ARCHIE deluded about?

Nightmask wrote:the 'got to conquer them all!' insane being it became.
What is insane about wanting to conquer others?

He is delusional about his own capabilities which is why I think a lot of people over estimate him as being something more than he is. He believes he is superior to all human life and knows better... and yet to function anywhere near maximum capacity he requires a human interface. The last human interface loved him and was called James T. Kurhgrhghh (malfunction noise) and was left absolutely psychotic in a very simular manner to A-3 himself (as in smart but twisted, evil, and rampantly psychotic with big patches of missing memories).

Now he has Hagan and they're doing "much better" but James T. also thought "A.R.C.H.I.E. was his best friend" before it turned him into an abominable cyborg and then dismembered him (for no real reason other than to figure out if it could). Likewise, A.R.C.H.I.E. Three sometimes does over elaborate and wasteful things... like creating the She-marrian and then forgetting what his freaking plan was but still making more when he is consciously aware that their mere existence in such numbers may be a threat to him... but stopping their production or pulling the plug on the product would admit he was wrong, so he won't.

Sound like a sane mind?

As for A.R.C.H.I.E. 7, yes, the guy that said "it does not have emotions" was right. However, it IS a neural network intelligence and made using A.R.C.H.I.E. technology (which means it IS by its very definition self aware). It merely considers humanity component pieces in its main body. For instance, in the "mind" of A-7, a politician might be the equivalent of a brain cell while one of the robots its manufactures for the C.A.N. would be considered a white blood cell. It is the most intelligent and sophisticated computer in the universe. Period. That IS a thing. Nothing after Rifts: Aftermath has said anything to the contrary. So, yeah... it doesn't have concepts like "revenge" or "love" or "favorites" but it learns, adapts, grows, becomes more than itself with each passing day/week/year or significant event that helps shape it. It evolves to become the most efficient that it can without going outside of its directories and is fully functional and referencing another paragraph about C.A.N. Tech in Aftermath "as magic" compared to modern science on Rifts Earth; as in SO advanced that it can do things that wizards can do and modern day scientists/operators on Rifts Earth cannot explain.

Maybe all of a sudden your power armor turns off and reprograms itself and starts killing A-7's enemies against your will (despite all reason and the fact there is no direct plug in).
Maybe it can turn back time or freeze time or move ships through dimensional folds in space?
Maybe is able to fire a beam of energy into a machine that forces it to upgrade and transform into a giant fighting robot?

Whatever it can do, what we KNOW is that it is beyond anything else on Earth, it is functioning EXACTLY how its supposed to, it is 4 models more advanced than A-3 (and about 250 years its upgrade) and they have not had to take it down for decades.

The ONLY edge A.R.C.H.I.E. Three has on it, is that A.R.C.H.I.E. Three is mad, willing to make STUPID (or outright insane) sacrifices that might well pay off, and it does not need to adhere to moral/ethical limits that are currently active on A-7. I know A-3 has the popular vote, I know he is "cool" and a smart super villain and lots of fun... but don't believe the hype. Lex Luthor is all of those things too... and he is just a man. You don't NEED to be able to conquer the Megaverse as a sweeping virus or shoot radiation out of your hands or turn yourself into a human butane torch to be cool or good at what you do. Just because A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven is smarter, better, and commands more power and resources than A.R.C.H.I.E. Three doesn't mean he sucks. It just means he isn't as good a computer as A.R.C.H.I.E. 7.

I'd also just like to say that it is not HATE or LOATHING that drives A.R.C.H.I.E. Three... its FEAR. He is afraid. That is something else A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven doesn't have to worry about.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:14 am

ARCHIE-7 doesn't use the same technology that makes up ARCHIE-3, it's made quite clear in the text that it does not AND again that it is NOT self-aware. Seriously, the book makes it quite clear that ARCHIE-7 isn't self-aware or sentient as a direct statement of fact regarding it, claims to the otherwise are purely fanon house rules regarding ARCHIE-7 and not what the books state regarding it. Nothing about it supports any claims that it's continually evolving and growing either, it's a static thing, a machine intelligence in a box without what it takes to be anything more no matter how complex it might be. It's definitely not magitek either, no matter how much you want to inflate its abilities.

Akashic Soldier · Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:24 am

Nightmask wrote:ARCHIE-7 doesn't use the same technology that makes up ARCHIE-3, it's made quite clear in the text that it does not AND again that it is NOT self-aware. Seriously, the book makes it quite clear that ARCHIE-7 isn't self-aware or sentient as a direct statement of fact regarding it, claims to the otherwise are purely fanon house rules regarding ARCHIE-7 and not what the books state regarding it. Nothing about it supports any claims that it's continually evolving and growing either, it's a static thing, a machine intelligence in a box without what it takes to be anything more no matter how complex it might be. It's definitely not magitek either, no matter how much you want to inflate its abilities.

It is an A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven neural intelligence. Just because it doesn't have a favorite color or music doesn't mean it is not self-aware. It specifically says that it manages the component pieces of its body (the entire C.A.N. Republic) and it COULD NOT do that and function the way it functions if it was not self-aware. When it talks about what A-7 does, it specifically details tasks that require it being self aware. Likewise, no where does it say it is NOT an A.R.C.H.I.E. unit and assuming its not is baseless because its called A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven and is specifically the same kind of neural intelligence.

Nothing about it supports any claims that it's continually evolving and growing either, it's a static thing, a machine intelligence in a box without what it takes to be anything more no matter how complex it might be.

It is an A.R.C.H.I.E. unit, read about what A.R.C.H.I.E. bots ARE and why they are different to normal artifical intelligences (Rifts: Sourcebook 1, revised & expanded)

It's definitely not magitek either, no matter how much you want to inflate its abilities.

It specifically says that C.A.N. technology is more advanced than anything on earth and so advanced as to be magic, and A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven is a piece of C.A.N. technology thereby its capabilities are beyond that of anything on Earth. Period. Claiming the contrary just because you personally do not like it does not mean its not true and does not invalidate the content of the book. You can ignore it or interpret it as "wrong" if you like (for whatever reason) but I am personally of the mind that if something does not make sense than a rational person should look at all of the options and adjust their beliefs to the view to the one with most corroborating evidence (not the one they personally like the most). That doesn't mean that is how you have to run it in your game. However, claiming an interpretation of the written material is false or "fanon" because you choose to omit information in your judgment does not mean everyone else has too as well. That is what is written in the book.

As it written in the book that their technology is "magic" (a terminology used to exemplify technologies that are capable of wondrous things beyond our current understanding) by modern standards (the standards of Rifts Earth, which it elaborates on). Likewise A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven is an A.R.C.H.I.E. neural intelligence, and as it was created by the C.A.N. Republic so I am going to have to assume the book is telling the truth and the reason that the "stats" of the war machines are not "out of this world" is more a result of game balance at the time AND the fact that we do not have a lot of information on other available technologies.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:48 am

Akashic Soldier wrote:
Nightmask wrote:ARCHIE-7 doesn't use the same technology that makes up ARCHIE-3, it's made quite clear in the text that it does not AND again that it is NOT self-aware. Seriously, the book makes it quite clear that ARCHIE-7 isn't self-aware or sentient as a direct statement of fact regarding it, claims to the otherwise are purely fanon house rules regarding ARCHIE-7 and not what the books state regarding it. Nothing about it supports any claims that it's continually evolving and growing either, it's a static thing, a machine intelligence in a box without what it takes to be anything more no matter how complex it might be. It's definitely not magitek either, no matter how much you want to inflate its abilities.

It is an A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven neural intelligence. Just because it doesn't have a favorite color or music doesn't mean it is not self-aware. It specifically says that it manages the component pieces of its body (the entire C.A.N. Republic) and it COULD NOT do that and function the way it functions if it was not self-aware. When it talks about what A-7 does, it specifically details tasks that require it being self aware. Likewise, no where does it say it is NOT an A.R.C.H.I.E. unit and assuming its not is baseless because its called A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven and is specifically the same kind of neural intelligence.

Yes you keep saying that even though the book says it's not self-aware and unlike your claim self-awareness is not a requirement fot it to do any of that.

Akashic Soldier wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Nothing about it supports any claims that it's continually evolving and growing either, it's a static thing, a machine intelligence in a box without what it takes to be anything more no matter how complex it might be.

It is an A.R.C.H.I.E. unit, read about what A.R.C.H.I.E. bots ARE and why they are different to normal artifical intelligences (Rifts: Sourcebook 1, revised & expanded)

Being an ARCHIE doesn't come with a requirement that it be self-aware or sentient, of which it is neither.

Akashic Soldier wrote:
Nightmask wrote:It's definitely not magitek either, no matter how much you want to inflate its abilities.

It specifically says that C.A.N. technology is more advanced than anything on earth and so advanced as to be magic, and A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven is a piece of C.A.N. technology thereby its capabilities are beyond that of anything on Earth. Period. Claiming the contrary just because you personally do not like it does not mean its not true and does not invalidate the content of the book. You can ignore it or interpret it as "wrong" if you like (for whatever reason) but I am personally of the mind that if something does not make sense than a rational person should look at all of the options and adjust their beliefs to the view to the one with most corroborating evidence (not the one they personally like the most). That doesn't mean that is how you have to run it in your game. However, claiming an interpretation of the written material is false or "fanon" because you choose to omit information in your judgment does not mean everyone else has too as well. That is what is written in the book.

As it written in the book that their technology is "magic" (a terminology used to exemplify technologies that are capable of wondrous things beyond our current understanding) by modern standards (the standards of Rifts Earth, which it elaborates on). Likewise A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven is an A.R.C.H.I.E. neural intelligence, and as it was created by the C.A.N. Republic so I am going to have to assume the book is telling the truth and the reason that the "stats" of the war machines are not "out of this world" is more a result of game balance at the time AND the fact that we do not have a lot of information on other available technologies.

I omit nothing, given we see NOTHING from the Moon colony that even remotely looks superior to anyone (outside of perhaps ARCHIE-7) a statement that 'well their technology is so advanced it's like magic to everyone else' is one that is without any value or support. Their ships aren't any better than anyone else's, they can't manage even a basic force field or artificial gravity, nor anything else that is demonstrative of being actually superior to anyone. So your assumption that it must be a fact is wrong because nothing we see proves anything but the opposite, that they aren't in fact possessed of superior technology that would rate them a civilization that would rival a Phase World mega-advanced civilization which is what you'd have to be doing if your technology was that advanced.

ARCHIE-7 btw was also created shortly after the Cataclysm, so it's centuries old technology which again hardly gives anyone reason to think it could be that super-advanced when it's the kind of technology you can't just upgrade you have to replace and given we know it to be the point where they got one that worked after ARCHIE-4 failed they clearly haven't been making newer and more advanced ARCHIE units since then.

Colonel_Tetsuya · Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:50 am

Tor wrote:
eliakon wrote:When your described as 'having gone insane'
I don't like that, it's too vague.

eliakon wrote:meglomaniacl
Megalomania is more of a personality variant than an insanity, no?

No, it's a form of diagnosable, clinical insanity. For realsies.

eliakon wrote:delusional
What is ARCHIE deluded about?

That he's got no equal, is smarter than everything else on the planet, and is invincible. Those are just three things listed right in SB1.

Nightmask wrote:the 'got to conquer them all!' insane being it became.
What is insane about wanting to conquer others?

.... you're trolling, right?

Killer Cyborg · Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:59 am

Tor wrote:Why is Archie 3 insane? Does SB1 list what insanities he has?

SB1, 76
-Manic Depressive
-Obsessive hatred of the Splugorth
-Megalomania
-"has distorted fictional literature and added it to his knowledge and perceptions" (underlining added for emphasis)

Killer Cyborg · Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:03 am

Nightmask wrote:the book says it's not self-aware

Can you quote a direct passage to that effect?

Akashic Soldier · Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:23 am

Nightmask wrote:I omit nothing, given we see NOTHING from the Moon colony that even remotely looks superior to anyone (outside of perhaps ARCHIE-7) a statement that 'well their technology is so advanced it's like magic to everyone else' is one that is without any value or support.

Except that is what the book says.

Their ships aren't any better than anyone else's, they can't manage even a basic force field or artificial gravity, nor anything else that is demonstrative of being actually superior to anyone.

Are you going to make me do this AGAIN? How many times do I have to repeat myself.

Q: They don't have antigravity technology or force fields.
A: They don't NEED it. They have other things they can do. Primarily, cybernetics or bionic conversion. They were founded out of a Cybernetics company after all. As i said nearly a year ago, is a Whale LESS because it cannot sprint on land? When having anti-grav means you can move around heavy objects weightlessly. If they need to go to a gravidic environment they can turn someone into a Juicer or a Crazie or (more likely) give them cybernetic organs/conversion and its done. Likewise, their ships were considerably powerful for the time of the printing nearly two decades ago. More to the point, just because their weapons of war are not mind-blowing does not mean that they're not technological masterpieces and VRRDs is still one of the best combat systems that exists as far as I know. It not only allows them to pilot a craft remotely it can potentially turn someone into a super pilot (even if they do eventually go mad).

So your assumption that it must be a fact is wrong because nothing we see proves anything but the opposite, that they aren't in fact possessed of superior technology that would rate them a civilization that would rival a Phase World mega-advanced civilization which is what you'd have to be doing if your technology was that advanced.

That makes the fallacy of an assumption that phase world technology is the ONLY form of advanced technology in the Megaverse. For all we know their skills in mathematics or cybernetics might put Phaseworld to shame. Just because they are not a super society with a hundred thousand aliens of different worlds converging under an epoch long reign of Promethean rule does not mean they cannot be more advanced than any technological society on Rifts Earth.

ARCHIE-7 btw was also created shortly after the Cataclysm, so it's centuries old technology which again hardly gives anyone reason to think it could be that super-advanced when it's the kind of technology you can't just upgrade you have to replace and given we know it to be the point where they got one that worked after ARCHIE-4 failed they clearly haven't been making newer and more advanced ARCHIE units since then.

If I recall correctly (and I have not looked this up so I MIGHT be wrong, if I am post a book reference) but A-4 ran for 100 years after the Cataclysm before they disabled it. Then they made A-5 and 6 and then finally they perfected the technology with A-7 and it has been running nearly every aspect of their lives and protecting their democracy ever-since?

Right?

Either way, just because you cannot imagine something between two extremes (or do not want to) does not mean the book is wrong. The book says what it says. We've had this argument COUNTLESS times before and you cannot (and have NEVER been able to) convince me that you have a point because all you do is disregard the printed material and say "Nuh huh!"

Now, I get it if you don't like it and youre entitled to that opinion but blatantly LYING or selecting truth and denying people the right to ALL the information to form their own opinion is WRONG. It says in two separate canonical sources (one which updates the world to P.A. 109 so CLEARLY it has not changed) that the C.A.N. Republic is suprior and A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven is the most sophisticated and advanced computer in the universe. Better than any Archon technology (and they're a space faring race), better than Triax, better than the Coalition, better than any empire in our universe. Now, you can either stick plugs in your ears and say "No, No, No!" or you can say "I just don't like it and that isn't how I run it in my game" but DENYING it, claiming it is not there in some farce to "win" people to your way of thinking is wrong and its disrespectful of the intelligence of other people on the board.

If you are going to give canon answers you should provide people the tools they need to make up their mind and all the evidence. You say you are not omitting things but all we need to do is go over to my Rifts: Space thread and we will see book quotes that you well know and explanations and alternate (and FEASIBLE) possibilities that explain "why" their ships have less M.D.C. or on average only do as much damage as average Triax 'Bots.

You ignore the fact they're space worthy for a starter (something most other Earth technology is not).
You ignore direct quotes from the books
You refuse to accept new alternate views on what the setting might be like or the notion that they do not have a dedicated book yet and so were only a small fraction of MiO and you insist that the book is wrong RATHER than just accepting what is written there plain as day (in multiple places).

***

Facts
A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven is an A.R.C.H.I.E. Neural Intelligence

A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven is the most sophisticated computer in the universe.

A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven micromanages the entire C.A.N. Republic

A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven is a neural intelligence (an A.R.C.H.I.E.) which were the most advanced form of AI during Chaos Earth. Likewise, of those models it is the most advanced and is the only one to function at full efficiency without catastrophic malfunction or breakdown. It is aware of the various branches of its body, resources, options, the values and political beliefs of its people. Likewise, in the entire time it has been running it has not needed to be shutdown and readjusted. A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven is one of the last great achievements of American technology still around today and protects democracy within The C.A.N. Republic.

The C.A.N. Republic have technology more advanced than anyone else on Earth.

The technology of the C.A.N. Republic is so advanced as to be like magic by modern standards on Rifts Earth.

***

As a final note; just because someone CAN do something does not mean they MUST or that doing said thing is efficient. In a society governed by hyper efficiency and conservation (like The C.A.N. Republic) force fields and anti-gravity might seem exorbitant or wasteful. Especially when cybernetic augmentation is at least 200 years more advanced than anything else on Earth. We can speculate that this allows C.A.N. Pilots to have "arms" with 24 (maybe higher!) P.P. and it is VERY unlikely that there is any social stigma around it because the entire Moon Base was originally a Cybernetics Company. Likewise, its safe to say that with how SAFE and advanced cybernetic medicine is on Rifts Earth that the C.A.N. likely has bionics on par with the Kremlin Cyborgs by now or at the very least is able to recover from surgery in a few hours as opposed to the few days.

As such, why would they NEED these things you are claiming they MUST have to show they are advanced?

We also do not have rules or stats for their toilets, does that mean they don't have them or they're stuck relying on 20th century designs? Clearly they're not all using space suits so they're doing SOMETHING! Yet, just because they don't have ships with 50,000 M.D.C. clunkying up what is ultimately a book about MORE than just The C.A.N. or Rifts, everything in the book has to be dated, limited, or wrong?

I do not agree. I believe in seeing solutions and new paths. I believe in considering all the evidence and looking at all the possibilities... not just the ones that make me right.

Nekira Sudacne · Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:32 am

It's fine to say the C.A.N. Republic has technology that is like magic to earth-technology, but there's plenty of phase world tech that's like magic compared to earth technology. like nano-multi-tool, or medical beamers, or functioning FTL drives for that matter. jumping right to giving them time-space folds and beams that turn machines into killer robots is jumping the gun a bit. a GM COULD say that for his game, given it's so vauge...but if I was a player, my suspenion of disbeleif would be strained well past the breaking point.

Yes, the C.A.N. Republic has stuff better than anything people on earth would understand. No, that shouldn't give them stuff on par with the Promethians or Dominators or other elder-level races this soon. give it a few hundred thousand years. It's working on it.

Akashic Soldier · Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:36 am

Nekira Sudacne wrote:It's fine to say the C.A.N. Republic has technology that is like magic to earth-technology, but there's plenty of phase world tech that's like magic compared to earth technology. like nano-multi-tool, or medical beamers, or functioning FTL drives for that matter. jumping right to giving them time-space folds and beams that turn machines into killer robots is jumping the gun a bit. a GM COULD say that for his game, given it's so vauge...but if I was a player, my suspenion of disbeleif would be strained well past the breaking point.

I agree. My point is they "could" have anything. We don't actually KNOW what they have and what they do not have other than their weapons of war. The "transformers" ray was an intentional exaggeration but it is still "a possibility" until we know otherwise. Which will not be until Rifts Space is finished (which won't be for some time if my understanding of things are correct).