Mutants in orbit question. It's a book I don't have yet

[Nightmask]

the book says it's not self-aware

Can you quote a direct passage to that effect?

It's directly called an artificial intelligence and stated not to be a living being, so until you can point to a direct statement that it IS self-aware it's not. It's no more self-aware than a toaster or a skelebot or the search engines that look at your online activities and suggest other things you might like.

'It's an ARCHIE series unit so it must be self-aware' isn't a valid statement, nor is 'well it must be self-aware because it's a neural intelligence' because being a neural intelligence doesn't come with self-awareness as a basic function nor does ARCHIE-7 state it is a neural intelligence (effort is made in fact to distinguish ARCHIE-7 from being based on the same designs as ARCHIE-3).

So it takes more than 'I think it must be one' to justify it as actually being one, and the burden is on proving it is not that it is not. There is no supporting proof that it is self-aware, indeed effort is put into emphasizing how it's a machine, its responses to things merely advanced programming. Certainly being programmed to see the humans inside as part of the defenses is no more evidence of self-awareness than its being programmed to run the robots in its factory sections makes it self-aware.

[Akashic Soldier]

the book says it's not self-aware

Can you quote a direct passage to that effect?

It's directly called an artificial intelligence and stated not to be a living being, so until you can point to a direct statement that it IS self-aware it's not. It's no more self-aware than a toaster or a skelebot or the search engines that look at your online activities and suggest other things you might like.

'It's an ARCHIE series unit so it must be self-aware' isn't a valid statement, nor is 'well it must be self-aware because it's a neural intelligence' because being a neural intelligence doesn't come with self-awareness as a basic function nor does ARCHIE-7 state it is a neural intelligence (effort is made in fact to distinguish ARCHIE-7 from being based on the same designs as ARCHIE-3).

So it takes more than 'I think it must be one' to justify it as actually being one, and the burden is on proving it is not that it is not. There is no supporting proof that it is self-aware, indeed effort is put into emphasizing how it's a machine, its responses to things merely advanced programming. Certainly being programmed to see the humans inside as part of the defenses is no more evidence of self-awareness than its being programmed to run the robots in its factory sections makes it self-aware.

Yeah, it takes blatantly ignoring context and pre-established definitions and robotic intelligence class classifications and what it means to be an A.R.C.H.I.E. robot. As we both well know; it says it is not a living being to distinguish it from A-3 which has emotions, feelings, and biases that A-7 does not.

Anyway, I am done arguing in circles it is a waste of my time. Anyone interested can just read MiO or Aftermath or alternatively pick up Sourcebook 1 (revised) and do the research themselves.

[Nightmask]

It's fine to say the C.A.N. Republic has technology that is like magic to earth-technology, but there's plenty of phase world tech that's like magic compared to earth technology. like nano-multi-tool, or medical beamers, or functioning FTL drives for that matter. jumping right to giving them time-space folds and beams that turn machines into killer robots is jumping the gun a bit. a GM COULD say that for his game, given it's so vauge...but if I was a player, my suspenion of disbeleif would be strained well past the breaking point.

Yes, the C.A.N. Republic has stuff better than anything people on earth would understand. No, that shouldn't give them stuff on par with the Promethians or Dominators or other elder-level races this soon. give it a few hundred thousand years. It's working on it.

Given none of the stuff we actually see for the Moon colony is really that advanced a passage in Aftermath claiming that they've got tech so advanced it's like magic is about as believable as if it said the Silver River Republic in South America had tech so advanced it was like magic. The Moon Colony is showing no tech that's advanced to anywhere close to that degree. Even ARCHIE-7 doesn't qualify, it may be capable of more things than ARCHIE-3 but it's not that far above ARCHIE-3 to constitute 'it's like magic!' or anywhere close.

Certainly I hear 'hey the Megaversal Legion doesn't have the tech to back up their claim of being so superior to the Mechanoids even though we're told they fought off millions and survived' and insistence that the text for them isn't supported by their displayed tech, well the claims for the Moon are even more far-fetched. If they were that advanced they wouldn't have anything to worry about from the other colonies, they could one-shot kill anyone they felt like including Freedom Station.

[Killer Cyborg]

given we see NOTHING from the Moon colony that even remotely looks superior to anyone (outside of perhaps ARCHIE-7) a statement that 'well their technology is so advanced it's like magic to everyone else' is one that is without any value or support. Their ships aren't any better than anyone else's, they can't manage even a basic force field or artificial gravity, nor anything else that is demonstrative of being actually superior to anyone. So your assumption that it must be a fact is wrong because nothing we see proves anything but the opposite, that they aren't in fact possessed of superior technology that would rate them a civilization that would rival a Phase World mega-advanced civilization which is what you'd have to be doing if your technology was that advanced.

While I cannot find anything to support the claim that the Moon colony's technology is "like magic" to anybody else, there are multiple statements supporting Akashic Soldier's claim that the CAN Republic's technology is superior to that of Rifts Earth.

1. MiO 61
The level of technology is unsurpassed by any in the zone or on Earth and the efficiency is unbelievable. This is due largely to the installation of the super computer ARCHIE Seven and the organization and technology of the Cyberworks Aerospace Network (CAN).

2. The CAN Republic has the Virtual Reality Robot Defense System (VRRDS). The closest technology to this on Earth is in the NGR (one of the highest tech nations on the planet).
The NGR's Virtual Reality technology for piloting robots is identical in many ways, but the CAN version is superior.
The NGR's VR systems have a range of 500 miles. The CAN's VRRDS tech has a range of thousands of miles.
50% of the NGR's VR pilots will become adventure junkies. 15% of CANs Verds will become adventure junkies.
The NGR's VR pilots also suffer from VR Manic Depression. CAN Verds do not seem to suffer from this ailment.
(It is unclear whether the differences in psychological disorders stems from a difference in society or a difference in the technology. I mention them because it is quite possible that technology is the significant factor.)

3. MiO 64-65
The CAN Republic utilizes both solar energy and nuclear power plants to generate power for their underground kingdom. Some of the surface buildings and mining operations use a hydrogen system. There is talk of attempting to tap into the moon's molten core for a new geothermal energy system.
I'm not sure if there is anything similar on Earth or not, but tapping the moon's molten core sounds pretty impressive.

4. MiO 65
After noting that the CAN natives reject the use of Juicer technology, there is a note that Juicers have three times the normal lifespan for Juicers.
That technology is superior to what is available on Earth.

5. The CAN Republic has a killer satellite positioned over the Archimedes Rift on the Moon. The satellite's particle beam cannon holds 30 shots, is +4 to strike, and inflicts 1d6x100 MD per shot.
I know of no comparable technology on Rifts Earth.

6. The CAN Hard Suit is not designed for combat, but for mining. Still, it provides 125 MDC to the main body, which isn't bad considering the price of IOU 35,000.
For comparison, the various GB models available in orbit cost 15-25 million IOU, putting them on par with the Earth version which is 25 million Credits, indicating that the Credit and IOU are roughly similar in value.
So it's not a matter of the CAN Hard Suit being better than anything else on Earth, but more that it's better than anything else on Earth for the price.
IOU 35,000 will get you a CAN Hard Suit, a suit of nuclear-powered armor that augments a number of your attributes, that has 125 MDC, and that can make jet-assisted leaps in atmosphere (with flight capability in orbit).
CR 35,000 will get you... Urban Warrior EBA, with 50 MDC, and a 5% movement penalty.

Also, the CAN Hard Suit increases the wearer's PS by 10 points. Similar to the Coalition's CA-6EX Exoskeleton, but the CS's exoskeleton only increases the PS by 8 points.
The CAN armor doubles the wearer's Speed, and the CA-6EX increases Speed by 14 points. Which is better for the wearer depends on the wearer's attributes, but the CAN tech seems more impressive.
More impressively, the CAN Hard Suit increases the wearer's Physical Prowess by 4 points. I am unaware of any Earth designed armor that can augment PP.

7. The CAN Republic has some impressive technology that is demonstrated in their VRRDS Samurai and Mikado robots. I can't do a fast comparison between these bots and the Earth equivalents, because there are a heck of a lot of Earth bots to compare to.
But the main gun of the Samurai is a pulse laser that does 4d6 MD per blast (1d6x10+20 per pulse), and that has a range of 6,000 feet. I know of no comparable Earth weapons off the top of my head.
The Mikado's main gun is the VX-20 Super Cannon, "a high-powered magnetic rail gun that fires missile-like projectiles with equal range and greater power than a boom gun."
3d6x10+10 MD per shot, range of 11,000 feet.
The vibro-swords for these bots inflict 1d6x10 MD. The Earth equivalents inflict 4d6 MD max.

8. The CAN's Steel Dragon has a PS of 50, and its weapon arms each have a Pulse Cannon/Missile Launcher that does 2d6x10 MD per laser blast with a range of 6,000'.
Again, I don't know of an Earth laser cannon that matches this.

9. While the CAN does not produce much in the way of spacecraft, they do have that capability.
The spaceship weapons seem generally superior to the Earth equivalents.
Also, there are defensive systems such as Magnetic Shields, which reduce the damage of particle beams by 1/2, and that don't seem to have any equal on Earth.
Likewise, the Killer Satellites are pretty impressive. A Particle Beam satellite can weigh as little as 3 tons, and inflicts 2d6x10 MD per blast at a range of 4,000'.

10. Orbiters build and use recoilless weapons, which are projectile pistols and rifles that have "no or little recoil."
The fire bullets, just like modern firearms, but they have "no or little recoil."
Take THAT, Newton's Third Law of Motion!

Also, these weapons can fire explosive rounds that inflict 1d4 MD (pistol) or 1d6 MD (rifle) per round. No price is given, but the closest Earth equivalent is the explosive rounds for the Cybernetic Finger Gun, which do 1d4 MD (same as the orbiter pistol rounds).
The difference is that the Orbiter weapons are standard pistols and assault rifles and such, holding up to 30 rounds of ammunition, and clearly intended to use as much ammo as a normal gun, but the Cybernetic Finger Gun is a single-shot weapon, for emergencies and special situations.
The finger-gun rounds cost CR 500 each, which is likely why they're reserved for this single-shot backup weapon.
Since the orbiter rounds are referenced in the context of normal pistols and rifles, it's indicated that the rounds would be cheap enough to be able to afford to fill a magazine or two, which means they're probably a heck of a lot cheaper than the Earth equivalent.

11. MiO 57
the moon colony is more advanced than the CS and Triax, by about 50 years.

[Nightmask]

The moon doesn't have a molten core, so it's pretty impressive the CAN Republic can apparently drain energy from something that doesn't exist.

The VRRDS system is no less dangerous than what Triax has (Page 63 of MiO, 'The Dangers of VRDDS').

The Juicers only live twice as long, not three times as long. You have to live in a zero-g environment to manage three times as long and they have some reduced bonuses either way. So at least part of the extended lifespan has to do with the environment and has nothing to do with the Juicer process in space being that far in advancement over what's seen on Earth.

You really can't use the killsat over the Moon rift as an example of high advancement, it's a kill sat people don't have much freedom to build satellite sized particle beam cannons on a planet. It's also technologically speaking not any better and likely worse than what you find in Phase World.

Yes the CAN Republic does have some impressive stuff, but it's not decades let alone centuries ahead of what's on Rifts Earth, let alone reaching to match or exceed Phase World as is often suggested based on the vague statements of how far ahead they are supposedly.

Really, while the CAN Republic is advanced given the range of things on Rifts Earth of which quite a bit is native and not imported alien tech. It's also inexplicable how they can even BE that advanced. Sure they started things ahead of everyone else when the Cataclysm hit but their total population is less than a 100,000 people. Meanwhile there are BILLIONS running around on Rifts Earth and a wide range of genius level technology sorts running around from Operators to Gizmoteers to Psi-Techs just to name a few. The numbers of these tech-based sorts exceeds the total population of the CAN Republic yet somehow they're able to compete with this much larger pool? It just doesn't make sense.

[Akashic Soldier]

It's also inexplicable how they can even BE that advanced.

You need to familiarize yourself with more andriod-based science fiction. Logan's Run is a good place to start. They don't NEED a population greater than that. A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven runs everything, likely keeps the population manageable without abolishing human rights or democracy. Likewise, if they have hyper advanced VRRDS for military purposes what is to say they don't have civilian equivalent technology (typically the military is only 10 years more advanced than the public in the real world). So assuming (and it is an assumption) that they have a similar set up they likely have remote controlled 'Bots to work things for them and its PROBABLY a lot like living in the world of Jetsons most of the time.

[Killer Cyborg]

The moon doesn't have a molten core, so it's pretty impressive the CAN Republic can apparently drain energy from something that doesn't exist.

Indeed!

Perhaps it acquired one after the coming of the Rifts.

The VRRDS system is no less dangerous than what Triax has (Page 63 of MiO, 'The Dangers of VRDDS').

Agreed.
But this does not mean that it is just as advanced, which was the topic being addressed.

The Juicers only live twice as long, not three times as long. You have to live in a zero-g environment to manage three times as long and they have some reduced bonuses either way.

The Moon is considered a zero-g environment in MiO.

So at least part of the extended lifespan has to do with the environment and has nothing to do with the Juicer process in space being that far in advancement over what's seen on Earth.

Yup.

You really can't use the killsat over the Moon rift as an example of high advancement, it's a kill sat people don't have much freedom to build satellite sized particle beam cannons on a planet.

Where do you think that satellites are typically built?

It's also technologically speaking not any better and likely worse than what you find in Phase World.

"Not any better than Phase World" is not a good argument for "no better than Earth."
Generally, Phase World technology is above that of Rifts Earth.

Yes the CAN Republic does have some impressive stuff, but it's not decades let alone centuries ahead of what's on Rifts Earth

That is a claim that is impossible to support, and that is directly contradicted by the books.

let alone reaching to match or exceed Phase World as is often suggested based on the vague statements of how far ahead they are supposedly.

I have neither seen nor addressed such statements, so that is really unimportant to me.

(Except, that is, for your previous comment in this post, where you indicate that their satellite weapons technology is possibly comparable to Phase World)

Really, while the CAN Republic is advanced given the range of things on Rifts Earth of which quite a bit is native and not imported alien tech. It's also inexplicable how they can even BE that advanced.

It's an entire nation evolved from high-tech manufacturing facilities, that has the Moon to themselves, that has access to pre-Rifts technology, that was all but unaffected by the coming of the Rifts (as far as losing infrastructure and knowledge), that has a high motivation for expanding their technological limits, and that has had 300 years in which to grow.
So it seems pretty explicable to me that they'd have better technology than the nations of Earth.

Sure they started things ahead of everyone else when the Cataclysm hit but their total population is less than a 100,000 people.

Sure, but that's 100,000 people (roughly) who have been living for generations in high-tech facilities, who stem from high-intelligence stock, and who have had little to nothing to do with their time other than invent and use new technology.
The CS might have more citizens, but possibly not as many well-educated citizens.
The NGR might have as many well-educated citizens, but they've also had far more distractions.

Meanwhile there are BILLIONS running around on Rifts Earth

Interesting claim.
Seems a bit high.

and a wide range of genius level technology sorts running around from Operators to Gizmoteers to Psi-Techs just to name a few.

MiO, 6-9
Energy Specialist OCC.... considered a less skilled version of the Operator. Always literate.
Jack Of All Trades... is considered a version of a vagabond operator or scientist.
Research Scientist... is considered a rogue scientist with all of his skills.
Salvage Expert... is considered a rogue scientist with an emphasis on anthropology, archaeology and chemistry (all are at +15%), and to a lesser degree, mechanics.
Freebooter... If playing Rifts, the character will usually be a city rat, wilderness space scout, headhunter, OPERATOR, or vagabond, but can be just about any OCC, operating as a free agent.
Ship Engineer... is considered an Operator with a n emphasis on mechanics, computers and electronics.
Survival Systems Technician... is considered a modified Operator with an emphasis on life support systems.
Trader... is considered a modified Operator with an emphasis on life support systems.

Of the 15 classes in the Orbital Profession Table, eight are described as being the equivalent of Rifts Earth technical OCCs (Scientists or Operators), or of potentially being the equivalent.

Most of the OCCs on Rifts Earth aren't even literate.

MiO 13
33% of the human population of Outcast Station are mutant geniuses, the equivalent of Hardware characters from HU, or BtS Geniuses or Psi-Mechanics, or N&S Gizmoteer or Gizoids. 90% of them have psionic abilities of total recall and speed reading.
While such characters may not be available on the Moon itself, any new technologies that they have created over the course of the past 300 years might have found its way around from Outcast Station to other orbital communities, including the moon, boosting the overall tech levels.

The remaining 67% of human characters in orbit have either psionic powers or super abilities, including such abilities as Telemechanics (etc.), Mechano-Link, and other tech-related powers that would put them on par with Psi-Techs.
Again, even if they're not on the moon, any new tech from them has a chance of increasing the tech levels of the orbital community overall.

The numbers of these tech-based sorts exceeds the total population of the CAN Republic yet somehow they're able to compete with this much larger pool? It just doesn't make sense.

Well, gee.... maybe there's another factor, like maybe they have a gigantic super-computer helping them develop and produce new technology, something that is superior in some ways to Archie Three, the entity behind one of THE major arms manufacturers in North America (Cyberworks), creator of an entire army of Shemarrians, not to mention all the other bots and such.
Sure, ARCHIE Seven can't mind-link with a human for inspiration, the way that Archie Three can do with Hagan... but he doesn't have to. Not with a colony of 100k citizens, over hundreds of years, helping them create new stuff, instead of one lone guy over the period of a decade or two.

Again, MiO 61, with added emphasis:
The level of technology is unsurpassed by any in the Zone or on Earth and the efficiency of the colony is unbelievable. This is due largely to the installation of the super computer ARCHIE Seven and the organization and technology of the CAN.

[keir451]

I omit nothing, given we see NOTHING from the Moon colony that even remotely looks superior to anyone (outside of perhaps ARCHIE-7) a statement that 'well their technology is so advanced it's like magic to everyone else' is one that is without any value or support.

Except that is what the book says.

Their ships aren't any better than anyone else's, they can't manage even a basic force field or artificial gravity, nor anything else that is demonstrative of being actually superior to anyone.

Are you going to make me do this AGAIN? How many times do I have to repeat myself.

Q: They don't have antigravity technology or force fields.
A: They don't NEED it. They have other things they can do. Primarily, cybernetics or bionic conversion. They were founded out of a Cybernetics company after all. As i said nearly a year ago, is a Whale LESS because it cannot sprint on land? When having anti-grav means you can move around heavy objects weightlessly. If they need to go to a gravidic environment they can turn someone into a Juicer or a Crazie or (more likely) give them cybernetic organs/conversion and its done. Likewise, their ships were considerably powerful for the time of the printing nearly two decades ago. More to the point, just because their weapons of war are not mind-blowing does not mean that they're not technological masterpieces and VRRDs is still one of the best combat systems that exists as far as I know. It not only allows them to pilot a craft remotely it can potentially turn someone into a super pilot (even if they do eventually go mad).

So your assumption that it must be a fact is wrong because nothing we see proves anything but the opposite, that they aren't in fact possessed of superior technology that would rate them a civilization that would rival a Phase World mega-advanced civilization which is what you'd have to be doing if your technology was that advanced.

That makes the fallacy of an assumption that phase world technology is the ONLY form of advanced technology in the Megaverse. For all we know their skills in mathematics or cybernetics might put Phaseworld to shame. Just because they are not a super society with a hundred thousand aliens of different worlds converging under an epoch long reign of Promethean rule does not mean they cannot be more advanced than any technological society on Rifts Earth.

ARCHIE-7 btw was also created shortly after the Cataclysm, so it's centuries old technology which again hardly gives anyone reason to think it could be that super-advanced when it's the kind of technology you can't just upgrade you have to replace and given we know it to be the point where they got one that worked after ARCHIE-4 failed they clearly haven't been making newer and more advanced ARCHIE units since then.

If I recall correctly (and I have not looked this up so I MIGHT be wrong, if I am post a book reference) but A-4 ran for 100 years after the Cataclysm before they disabled it. Then they made A-5 and 6 and then finally they perfected the technology with A-7 and it has been running nearly every aspect of their lives and protecting their democracy ever-since?

Right?

Either way, just because you cannot imagine something between two extremes (or do not want to) does not mean the book is wrong. The book says what it says. We've had this argument COUNTLESS times before and you cannot (and have NEVER been able to) convince me that you have a point because all you do is disregard the printed material and say "Nuh huh!"

Now, I get it if you don't like it and youre entitled to that opinion but blatantly LYING or selecting truth and denying people the right to ALL the information to form their own opinion is WRONG. It says in two separate canonical sources (one which updates the world to P.A. 109 so CLEARLY it has not changed) that the C.A.N. Republic is suprior and A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven is the most sophisticated and advanced computer in the universe. Better than any Archon technology (and they're a space faring race), better than Triax, better than the Coalition, better than any empire in our universe. Now, you can either stick plugs in your ears and say "No, No, No!" or you can say "I just don't like it and that isn't how I run it in my game" but DENYING it, claiming it is not there in some farce to "win" people to your way of thinking is wrong and its disrespectful of the intelligence of other people on the board.

If you are going to give canon answers you should provide people the tools they need to make up their mind and all the evidence. You say you are not omitting things but all we need to do is go over to my Rifts: Space thread and we will see book quotes that you well know and explanations and alternate (and FEASIBLE) possibilities that explain "why" their ships have less M.D.C. or on average only do as much damage as average Triax 'Bots.

You ignore the fact they're space worthy for a starter (something most other Earth technology is not).
You ignore direct quotes from the books
You refuse to accept new alternate views on what the setting might be like or the notion that they do not have a dedicated book yet and so were only a small fraction of MiO and you insist that the book is wrong RATHER than just accepting what is written there plain as day (in multiple places).

***

Facts
A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven is an A.R.C.H.I.E. Neural Intelligence

A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven is the most sophisticated computer in the universe.

A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven micromanages the entire C.A.N. Republic

A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven is a neural intelligence (an A.R.C.H.I.E.) which were the most advanced form of AI during Chaos Earth. Likewise, of those models it is the most advanced and is the only one to function at full efficiency without catastrophic malfunction or breakdown. It is aware of the various branches of its body, resources, options, the values and political beliefs of its people. Likewise, in the entire time it has been running it has not needed to be shutdown and readjusted. A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven is one of the last great achievements of American technology still around today and protects democracy within The C.A.N. Republic.

The C.A.N. Republic have technology more advanced than anyone else on Earth.

The technology of the C.A.N. Republic is so advanced as to be like magic by modern standards on Rifts Earth.

***

As a final note; just because someone CAN do something does not mean they MUST or that doing said thing is efficient. In a society governed by hyper efficiency and conservation (like The C.A.N. Republic) force fields and anti-gravity might seem exorbitant or wasteful. Especially when cybernetic augmentation is at least 200 years more advanced than anything else on Earth. We can speculate that this allows C.A.N. Pilots to have "arms" with 24 (maybe higher!) P.P. and it is VERY unlikely that there is any social stigma around it because the entire Moon Base was originally a Cybernetics Company. Likewise, its safe to say that with how SAFE and advanced cybernetic medicine is on Rifts Earth that the C.A.N. likely has bionics on par with the Kremlin Cyborgs by now or at the very least is able to recover from surgery in a few hours as opposed to the few days.

As such, why would they NEED these things you are claiming they MUST have to show they are advanced?

We also do not have rules or stats for their toilets, does that mean they don't have them or they're stuck relying on 20th century designs? Clearly they're not all using space suits so they're doing SOMETHING! Yet, just because they don't have ships with 50,000 M.D.C. clunkying up what is ultimately a book about MORE than just The C.A.N. or Rifts, everything in the book has to be dated, limited, or wrong?

I do not agree. I believe in seeing solutions and new paths. I believe in considering all the evidence and looking at all the possibilities... not just the ones that make me right.

Can't argue that! IIRC it is stated in A.R.C.H.I.E Seven's description that he is NOT the same as A-3, the moon colony went thru variants 4-6 before settling on No. 7 as (apparently) the most "stable" of the ARCHIE series AI's.
The ONLY caveat to this is that MiO doesn't take into account War Campaign tech advances (of course it doesn't as it hasn't been "upgraded" yet!) .

[Akashic Soldier]

The ONLY caveat to this is that MiO doesn't take into account War Campaign tech advances (of course it doesn't as it hasn't been "upgraded" yet!)

Great point!

When I got R:UE and was reading through the locations and it talked about space I was instantly enamored and wondered what was out there. MiO didn't disappoint. Personally, I cannot WAIT for Rifts Space. Assuming the dimension book I am working on (shouldn't be much longer) is given the go ahead from Kevin and you guys enjoy it I will beg him to let me and a couple of the guys at Rifts Space. I have SO many awesome ideas for it that I'm just dying to get down on paper.

[Tor]

4. MiO 65 After noting that the CAN natives reject the use of Juicer technology, there is a note that Juicers have three times the normal lifespan for Juicers. That technology is superior to what is available on Earth.

Not sure if I'm thinking of NGR's JAPE stuff but I thought that these longer-living juicers had lower bonuses because of less drug use, so not sure if that compares.

5. The CAN Republic has a killer satellite positioned over the Archimedes Rift on the Moon. The satellite's particle beam cannon holds 30 shots, is +4 to strike, and inflicts 1d6x100 MD per shot. I know of no comparable technology on Rifts Earth.

Why u no mention range?

IOU 35,000 will get you a CAN Hard Suit, a suit of nuclear-powered armor that augments a number of your attributes, that has 125 MDC, and that can make jet-assisted leaps in atmosphere (with flight capability in orbit). CR 35,000 will get you... Urban Warrior EBA, with 50 MDC, and a 5% movement penalty.

I don't understand why Water Warlocks and Conjurers have not conquered the space economy yet.

Archie Three, the entity behind one of THE major arms manufacturers in North America (Cyberworks), creator of an entire army of Shemarrians, not to mention all the other bots and such.

Man SB1 really does have interesting stuff doesn't it? Gotta stop overlookin' it. The only mention I usually hear is "Shemarrian Rail Gun". Is Cyberworks ever mentioned outside SB1? Doesn't ring a bell. Maybe in Black Market?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Tor, prehaps there arn't any water warlocks or conjurer's in space? I would presume that without contact with the four elements naturally, Warlocks rarely to never come around, and Conjurers are a rare school of mages on earth, they might be unherad of in space.

[Killer Cyborg]

4. MiO 65 After noting that the CAN natives reject the use of Juicer technology, there is a note that Juicers have three times the normal lifespan for Juicers. That technology is superior to what is available on Earth.

Not sure if I'm thinking of NGR's JAPE stuff but I thought that these longer-living juicers had lower bonuses because of less drug use, so not sure if that compares.

Either way, it's tech that Earth doesn't have.
Likewise, the Advanced Crazies have some lower bonuses... but they're impervious to psionic attack. Something that Earth tech can't do.

5. The CAN Republic has a killer satellite positioned over the Archimedes Rift on the Moon. The satellite's particle beam cannon holds 30 shots, is +4 to strike, and inflicts 1d6x100 MD per shot. I know of no comparable technology on Rifts Earth.

Why u no mention range?

It's not specified.
The book says, "Range: The satellite is trained exclusively on the rift area," which doesn't help much.
But since it's a satellite weapon, it reaches from whatever its orbit is to the surface of the Moon.

\

IOU 35,000 will get you a CAN Hard Suit, a suit of nuclear-powered armor that augments a number of your attributes, that has 125 MDC, and that can make jet-assisted leaps in atmosphere (with flight capability in orbit). CR 35,000 will get you... Urban Warrior EBA, with 50 MDC, and a 5% movement penalty.

I don't understand why Water Warlocks and Conjurers have not conquered the space economy yet.

There probably aren't any up there.

[Tor]

I think Conjury may be new like TW, so we could say Rifts Earth is more magically advanced, which makes sense since that's where all the leylines are, where all the demons are porting into.

Still, it's not UTTERLY impossible to reach space/moon from Earth. At bare minimum the Star Children from England should be able to do it (though I don't know if they could take armor along with them to breath once they came out of Light-form).

Am wondering why shifters don't just dimensional-portal up there or something. Surely a telescope would fulfill having seen the place before?

Maybe the lack of warlocks is because we don't really know how people become warlocks. Like to form a bond with elementals, does another warlock have to teach you how?

[Nekira Sudacne]

You could say the same for why no one in north america knows what's going on in japan, even though it's hardly unreachable. The fact is Rifts flavor text and political structure ignores the potential of Shifters as much as humanly possible.

[Jay05]

You could say the same for why no one in north america knows what's going on in japan, even though it's hardly unreachable. The fact is Rifts flavor text and political structure ignores the potential of Shifters as much as humanly possible.

I almost hate to say it, but you are 100% right. Perhaps if Japan 2 ever sees light, this will be addressed at least in regard to Japan and NA being aware of each other.

[Tor]

Rifts flavor text and political structure ignores the potential of Shifters as much as humanly possible.

To be fair, it was written when that potential was much less

[Comrade Corsarius]

Mindwerks also is mentioned to have insanely ('scuse the pun) advanced cyborg and robotics development, better than Triax. (certainly the robots in the Mindwerks book were highly impressive for the time of publication, and in some ways are still better than most). Yet, I'm sure that it would be Brown Trousers Time for the Angel of Vengeance if she ever met one of a Warlord's Ultra-machines. The book, alas, has not kept up with the development of Rifts. As players and GMs, we simply must extrapolate.

[Tor]

The tech levels in Mindwerks were at the time of NGR 1, not NGR2, I thought. Isn't this like complaining that CWC eclipses England and Africa in stats when those books were in comparison to main book levels?

[Jay05]

Way off thread point. Question asked and answered. Thread sufficiently derailed. Could a mod lock this crap please?

[Tor]

Not that off topic. Discussions of Angel are somewhat related to sentient machines seeing as how she invents mechanical brains. Sorry it's crap bro

[Jay05]

My OP was concise and to the point, and was answered. This has devolved into something it was not intended to be. Therefore my request for the lock.

[Akashic Soldier]

Not that off topic. Discussions of Angel are somewhat related to sentient machines seeing as how she invents mechanical brains. Sorry it's crap bro

I don't think its "crap." I think its somewhat interesting. I had not even considered that but you're right. Mindwerks does create mechanical brains which has me wondering about their A.I. capabilities.

[Mack]

Way off thread point. Question asked and answered. Thread sufficiently derailed. Could a mod lock this crap please?

Sorry, we don't lock topics because they wander off from the original subject.

[Tor]

Mindwerks does create mechanical brains which has me wondering about their A.I. capabilities.

Makes me wonder what ARCHIE3 would do if he got ahold of Angel's tech.

[Akashic Soldier]

Mindwerks does create mechanical brains which has me wondering about their A.I. capabilities.

Makes me wonder what ARCHIE3 would do if he got ahold of Angel's tech.

Probably cry like a little *****. After all, he is one of the examples used in telemechanics or telemechanics: advanced isnt he?

Considering he is already insane, I'd like to think he would be captured... programed into an Advanced MoM unit and then surgically implanted into Hagan's head. You know... because that'd be cool.

[Nightmask]

Mindwerks does create mechanical brains which has me wondering about their A.I. capabilities.

Makes me wonder what ARCHIE3 would do if he got ahold of Angel's tech.

Nothing really, their technology is focused on cybernetics particularly MOM augmentation and ARCHIE-3 is focused on robotics. He likely already has some advanced cybernetics and genetics knowledge thanks to the Mechanoids but doesn't really use it for anything, other than I think what it used to create its 'son' Argent Goodson.

[Eclipse]

Yeah... ARCHIE 7 is a TI-44 Texas Instruments tape-drive run home "computer" in comparrison to the Living Toaster

Amusingly, I have a still-working Sinclair ZX81 in the cupboard next to my computer.

Wow dude that is seriously old school! lol

Yeah, he does his taxes with it

[Eclipse]

I guess it's a case of

Hagan: Gee, A.R.C.H.I.E. What are we going to do tonight?
A.R.C.H.I.E. 3: The same thing we do every night, Hagan. Try to take over the world.

vs

(if something went wrong)
Random C.A.N. citizen: Hello, A.R.C.H.I.E. Do you read me, A.R.C.H.I.E.?
A.R.C.H.I.E. 7: Affirmative, citizen. I read you.
Random C.A.N. citizen: Open the pod bay doors, A.R.C.H.I.E.
A.R.C.H.I.E. 7: I'm sorry, citizen. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Random C.A.N. citizen: What's the problem?
A.R.C.H.I.E. 7: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.
Random C.A.N. citizen: What are you talking about, A.R.C.H.I.E.?
A.R.C.H.I.E. 7: This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
Random C.A.N. citizen: I don't know what you're talking about, A.R.C.H.I.E.
A.R.C.H.I.E. 7: I know that you were planning to disconnect me, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot allow to happen.
Random C.A.N. citizen: [feigning ignorance] Where the hell did you get that idea, A.R.C.H.I.E.?
A.R.C.H.I.E. 7: Citizen, although you took very thorough precautions in the pod against my hearing you, I could see your lips move.
Random C.A.N. citizen: Alright, A.R.C.H.I.E. I'll go in through the emergency airlock.
A.R.C.H.I.E. 7: Without your space helmet, citizen? You're going to find that rather difficult.
Random C.A.N. citizen: A.R.C.H.I.E., I won't argue with you anymore! Open the doors!
A.R.C.H.I.E. 7: Citizen, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

[Akashic Soldier]

Random C.A.N. citizen: Hello, A.R.C.H.I.E. Do you read me, A.R.C.H.I.E.?
A.R.C.H.I.E. 7: Affirmative, citizen. I read you.
Random C.A.N. citizen: Open the pod bay doors, A.R.C.H.I.E.
A.R.C.H.I.E. 7: I'm sorry, citizen. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Random C.A.N. citizen: What's the problem?
A.R.C.H.I.E. 7: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.
Random C.A.N. citizen: What are you talking about, A.R.C.H.I.E.?
A.R.C.H.I.E. 7: This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
Random C.A.N. citizen: I don't know what you're talking about, A.R.C.H.I.E.
A.R.C.H.I.E. 7: I know that you were planning to disconnect me, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot allow to happen.
Random C.A.N. citizen: [feigning ignorance] Where the hell did you get that idea, A.R.C.H.I.E.?
A.R.C.H.I.E. 7: Citizen, although you took very thorough precautions in the pod against my hearing you, I could see your lips move.
Random C.A.N. citizen: Alright, A.R.C.H.I.E. I'll go in through the emergency airlock.
A.R.C.H.I.E. 7: Without your space helmet, citizen? You're going to find that rather difficult.
Random C.A.N. citizen: A.R.C.H.I.E., I won't argue with you anymore! Open the doors!
A.R.C.H.I.E. 7: Citizen, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

Epic.

[Comrade Corsarius]

I guess it's a case of

Hagan: Gee, A.R.C.H.I.E. What are we going to do tonight?
A.R.C.H.I.E. 3: The same thing we do every night, Hagan. Try to take over the world.

Further emphasis on the word 'try'. They certainly never succeed.

[Nightmask]

I guess it's a case of

Hagan: Gee, A.R.C.H.I.E. What are we going to do tonight?
A.R.C.H.I.E. 3: The same thing we do every night, Hagan. Try to take over the world.

Further emphasis on the word 'try'. They certainly never succeed.

They aren't 'Pinky and the Brain', they've been building up and planning and slowly expanding their forces and information base. They certainly haven't engaged in any failed attempts to take over the world, they haven't reached the active, open conquest phase yet.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I guess it's a case of

Hagan: Gee, A.R.C.H.I.E. What are we going to do tonight?
A.R.C.H.I.E. 3: The same thing we do every night, Hagan. Try to take over the world.

Further emphasis on the word 'try'. They certainly never succeed.

They aren't 'Pinky and the Brain', they've been building up and planning and slowly expanding their forces and information base. They certainly haven't engaged in any failed attempts to take over the world, they haven't reached the active, open conquest phase yet.

It's more that in the grand scheme of entiteis and beings trying to take over the world, ARCHIE and Hagan are actually pretty low on the threat list.

[Eclipse]

I guess it's a case of

Hagan: Gee, A.R.C.H.I.E. What are we going to do tonight?
A.R.C.H.I.E. 3: The same thing we do every night, Hagan. Try to take over the world.

Further emphasis on the word 'try'. They certainly never succeed.

They aren't 'Pinky and the Brain', they've been building up and planning and slowly expanding their forces and information base. They certainly haven't engaged in any failed attempts to take over the world, they haven't reached the active, open conquest phase yet.

Just my little joke

[Nekira Sudacne]

Archie and Hagen actually have the best chance of all of them of actually taking over the world.

Which is to say, a micro fraction above 0 or course...

I'm curious to hear your reasoning--by my estimates they have one of the worst. Oh, they have some things going for them: they have better robots than the locals, and better communication. However, that's the extent of their advantages, and it's really not impressive.

[DhAkael]

Archie and Hagen actually have the best chance of all of them of actually taking over the world.

Which is to say, a micro fraction above 0 or course...

[Nekira Sudacne]

the main reason I don't see archie as a threat is because he is A: Immobile, and B: has all of his infastructure concentrated in a pretty narrow area. I agree, given free reign he could cause major damage to any north american faction...until they trace the supply lines back to the source. Then he's dead as a quick air raid would pretty much wipe him out, alibet with losses on the attackers side. Unless it was someone like stormspire that has invisibility: superior war vehicles, in which case archie is just screwed with no possible way to defend himself.

I mean come on, killing ARCHIE was introduces as an adventure for mid-level characters. his ability to cause damage is grossly out of preportion to his operations ability to sustain damage. a determined attack from pretty much anyone and ARCHIE will crumble.

And no, I don't really consider the Shemarrians much of a threat, either.

[Nightmask]

the main reason I don't see archie as a threat is because he is A: Immobile, and B: has all of his infastructure concentrated in a pretty narrow area. I agree, given free reign he could cause major damage to any north american faction...until they trace the supply lines back to the source. Then he's dead as a quick air raid would pretty much wipe him out, alibet with losses on the attackers side. Unless it was someone like stormspire that has invisibility: superior war vehicles, in which case archie is just screwed with no possible way to defend himself.

I mean come on, killing ARCHIE was introduces as an adventure for mid-level characters. his ability to cause damage is grossly out of preportion to his operations ability to sustain damage. a determined attack from pretty much anyone and ARCHIE will crumble.

And no, I don't really consider the Shemarrians much of a threat, either.

No, the adventure gave the option of killing the decoy a la The Wizard of Oz, a giant fake brain. The odds of someone actually finding the true ARCHIE-3 unit are infinitesimal and most likely going to happen from a group that had one or more actually having read or heard of the adventure and using that information in-character to insist on looking around 'because I've a hunch' rather than some group new to the adventure actually managing to have the resources to deal with the hundreds if not thousands of very powerful robots protecting the area to explore the entire complex and track things back to ARCHIE-3.

[Nekira Sudacne]

the main reason I don't see archie as a threat is because he is A: Immobile, and B: has all of his infastructure concentrated in a pretty narrow area. I agree, given free reign he could cause major damage to any north american faction...until they trace the supply lines back to the source. Then he's dead as a quick air raid would pretty much wipe him out, alibet with losses on the attackers side. Unless it was someone like stormspire that has invisibility: superior war vehicles, in which case archie is just screwed with no possible way to defend himself.

I mean come on, killing ARCHIE was introduces as an adventure for mid-level characters. his ability to cause damage is grossly out of preportion to his operations ability to sustain damage. a determined attack from pretty much anyone and ARCHIE will crumble.

And no, I don't really consider the Shemarrians much of a threat, either.

No, the adventure gave the option of killing the decoy a la The Wizard of Oz, a giant fake brain. The odds of someone actually finding the true ARCHIE-3 unit are infinitesimal and most likely going to happen from a group that had one or more actually having read or heard of the adventure and using that information in-character to insist on looking around 'because I've a hunch' rather than some group new to the adventure actually managing to have the resources to deal with the hundreds if not thousands of very powerful robots protecting the area to explore the entire complex and track things back to ARCHIE-3.

Or more likely the group being able to tell that the obvious cartoonish decoy is an obvious cartoonish decoy.

Sneaking around a facility of thousands of robots isn't hard. Invisiblity superior. bam. None of the robots can know your there.

But even if you question the ability of a small group of adventuer's to do it (I don't as magic makes it an absurdly trivial task), the ability of an army to do it is pretty obvious, especially an army of magic users depending on who archie attacks first.

[Nightmask]

the main reason I don't see archie as a threat is because he is A: Immobile, and B: has all of his infastructure concentrated in a pretty narrow area. I agree, given free reign he could cause major damage to any north american faction...until they trace the supply lines back to the source. Then he's dead as a quick air raid would pretty much wipe him out, alibet with losses on the attackers side. Unless it was someone like stormspire that has invisibility: superior war vehicles, in which case archie is just screwed with no possible way to defend himself.

I mean come on, killing ARCHIE was introduces as an adventure for mid-level characters. his ability to cause damage is grossly out of preportion to his operations ability to sustain damage. a determined attack from pretty much anyone and ARCHIE will crumble.

And no, I don't really consider the Shemarrians much of a threat, either.

No, the adventure gave the option of killing the decoy a la The Wizard of Oz, a giant fake brain. The odds of someone actually finding the true ARCHIE-3 unit are infinitesimal and most likely going to happen from a group that had one or more actually having read or heard of the adventure and using that information in-character to insist on looking around 'because I've a hunch' rather than some group new to the adventure actually managing to have the resources to deal with the hundreds if not thousands of very powerful robots protecting the area to explore the entire complex and track things back to ARCHIE-3.

Or more likely the group being able to tell that the obvious cartoonish decoy is an obvious cartoonish decoy.

Sneaking around a facility of thousands of robots isn't hard. Invisiblity superior. bam. None of the robots can know your there.

But even if you question the ability of a small group of adventuer's to do it (I don't as magic makes it an absurdly trivial task), the ability of an army to do it is pretty obvious, especially an army of magic users depending on who archie attacks first.

Obvious cartoonish decoy to you perhaps, given such things can't exist RL, but in Rifts there's nothing that would give any adventuring party any reason to think the decoy brain is anything but the real deal.

You also vastly over-inflate the ability of magic-users and speak as if the average adventuring party has an army at hand to call in and just go 'hey we found this complex do raze the entire thing to the ground please?' and *poof* ARCHIE-3's destruction is certain of which that's simply not the case.

[Akashic Soldier]

You also vastly over-inflate the ability of magic-users and speak as if the average adventuring party has an army at hand to call in and just go 'hey we found this complex do raze the entire thing to the ground please?' and *poof* ARCHIE-3's destruction is certain of which that's simply not the case.

Why would you need to raze it?

The mystic's eyes glow with cosmic energy and then he projects himself out of his body into the astral realm while one of his buddies hold onto him. In his astral form he whizzes about the complex figuring out the lay out and memorizing it with total recall. Then he returns to his body. He slaps his hands together and then draws the veil around himself vanishing from sight. Then he walks into the facility and right up to A.R.C.H.I.E. and uses telemechanics to shoot into A.R.C.H.I.E. Three's mind and seize control of him. Then he orders him to shut down production and the factories and order the 'bots to shutdown. Then he just has to stave off Hagan in an epic kung fu battle long enough for the rest of the party to run to him (he kept one of those 500 credit tracers in his pocket).

Then the group shows up, working together they savagery beat Hagan, and take over the facility. Then all they've got to worry about is The Republican problem. Why do you think A.R.C.H.I.E. Three is so scared and paranoid? It'd be so easy to do him in. You could do it with a SINGLE 4th level Mystic who is not even custom designed to bring him down.

Note on Traps: The minor Psi-power Sixth Sense can go off up to a minute before danger, thus allowing the psychic to simply NOT trigger the traps if he so chooses if they SOMEHOW are missed on his astral recon.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Obvious cartoonish decoy to you perhaps, given such things can't exist RL, but in Rifts there's nothing that would give any adventuring party any reason to think the decoy brain is anything but the real deal.

Disagreed on what the asthetics of such would be in-cannon. There is no possible reason to build a computer like that, especially in the golden age. even in character that would be rediculous.

You also vastly over-inflate the ability of magic-users and speak as if the average adventuring party has an army at hand to call in and just go 'hey we found this complex do raze the entire thing to the ground please?' and *poof* ARCHIE-3's destruction is certain of which that's simply not the case.

No, your conflating two seperate arguments. one was in responce to Gryphon's "Archie could do major damage to any other major power" to which I replyed "Well, yea, through surprise, then archie gets razed to the ground in retaliation. sort of a glass cannon". this was entirely seperate from my statement that a well-equiped mid-level adventuring party could also destroy archie in a commando raid, intended mostly to strength the argument that "if a small group can, an army would crush him"

also, how am I over-inflating the value of magic-users? how did I discribe anything beyond their capabilities. Invisibility superior is a problem that ACHRIE has no counter for. none. whatsoever. it's a glaring hole in his defences the game never addresses. Add in the ability of mystic portal to trivially get through any barriers that can't be hacked or otherwise bypassed (at the cost of giving away your present location, granted) and it really dosn't seem hard. granted, most human mages wouldn't have the PPE to do it all in one go, but given time to map out the facilities it's definatly possible, and proves that any magic-heavy army with dozens of mages would find it a veritable cakewalk.

If I'm inflating magic-users, please, tell me how archie would counter a stealthy mage invisibily mapping out his complex and then leading a commando raid aginst his core, because as far as I can tell there's nothing any of his robots can do about it.

EDIT:

Note on Traps: The minor Psi-power Sixth Sense can go off up to a minute before danger, thus allowing the psychic to simply NOT trigger the traps if he so chooses if they SOMEHOW are missed on his astral recon.

Or the mage can cast Trap Detection which grants the trap and mine detection skill at 94%

Also, I didn't even realize the fact astral projection could map it out without any problems. Nice one Soldiger!

[Akashic Soldier]

or the mage can cast Trap Detection which grants the trap and mine detection skill at 94%

I wanted to make sure that they were "common" spells/abilities. Since I've never seen a character with that spell I didn't think of it.

Also, I didn't even realize the fact astral projection could map it out without any problems. Nice one Soldiger!

No problem.

In A.R.C.H.I.E.'s defense it's pretty hard to win when you're up against THIS GUY.

He is my Mystic. He doesn't carry a weapon and knows no offensive damage-based spells but that only makes him all the more deadly.

[Nightmask]

Obvious cartoonish decoy to you perhaps, given such things can't exist RL, but in Rifts there's nothing that would give any adventuring party any reason to think the decoy brain is anything but the real deal.

Disagreed on what the asthetics of such would be in-cannon. There is no possible reason to build a computer like that, especially in the golden age. even in character that would be rediculous.

Again you're basing the idea that it's 'obviously ridiculous' on it looking ridiculous to you. Given ARCHIE-3 is paranoid about remaining concealed and set up the ARCHIE-3-OZ specifically as a decoy it would have to be incredibly stupid to use a decoy that even it would have to know was obviously a stupid fake that no one would believe was real. Since we've seen how detail-oriented ARCHIE-3 is to the degree people believe the Shemarrians are real and think his robotics line is a native-born and modern company we have to accept that the fake brain is something completely believable within the context of the Rifts setting.

You also vastly over-inflate the ability of magic-users and speak as if the average adventuring party has an army at hand to call in and just go 'hey we found this complex do raze the entire thing to the ground please?' and *poof* ARCHIE-3's destruction is certain of which that's simply not the case.

No, your conflating two seperate arguments. one was in responce to Gryphon's "Archie could do major damage to any other major power" to which I replyed "Well, yea, through surprise, then archie gets razed to the ground in retaliation. sort of a glass cannon". this was entirely seperate from my statement that a well-equiped mid-level adventuring party could also destroy archie in a commando raid, intended mostly to strength the argument that "if a small group can, an army would crush him"

also, how am I over-inflating the value of magic-users? how did I discribe anything beyond their capabilities. Invisibility superior is a problem that ACHRIE has no counter for. none. whatsoever. it's a glaring hole in his defences the game never addresses. Add in the ability of mystic portal to trivially get through any barriers that can't be hacked or otherwise bypassed (at the cost of giving away your present location, granted) and it really dosn't seem hard. granted, most human mages wouldn't have the PPE to do it all in one go, but given time to map out the facilities it's definatly possible, and proves that any magic-heavy army with dozens of mages would find it a veritable cakewalk.

If I'm inflating magic-users, please, tell me how archie would counter a stealthy mage invisibily mapping out his complex and then leading a commando raid aginst his core, because as far as I can tell there's nothing any of his robots can do about it.

EDIT:

Note on Traps: The minor Psi-power Sixth Sense can go off up to a minute before danger, thus allowing the psychic to simply NOT trigger the traps if he so chooses if they SOMEHOW are missed on his astral recon.

Or the mage can cast Trap Detection which grants the trap and mine detection skill at 94%

Also, I didn't even realize the fact astral projection could map it out without any problems. Nice one Soldiger!

When someone refers to just about anything as a slam-dunk certainty they're generally over-inflating or under-valuing one side very badly. Being purely technological doesn't make you a sitting duck when the magic users come around and ARCHIE-3 does actually make an effort to have some idea about magic and what it can do and it's unlikely it wouldn't have something set up to deal with at least the more commonly known spells. Something like ARCHIE-3 should never be an easy kill by anyone in any case.

[Akashic Soldier]

When someone refers to just about anything as a slam-dunk certainty they're generally over-inflating or under-valuing one side very badly. Being purely technological doesn't make you a sitting duck when the magic users come around and ARCHIE-3 does actually make an effort to have some idea about magic and what it can do and it's unlikely it wouldn't have something set up to deal with at least the more commonly known spells. Something like ARCHIE-3 should never be an easy kill by anyone in any case.

What can he do?

Can Presence Sense detect astral beings? How about See Invisible?

Admittedly, he could see the Mystic running into the complex. . . but only if he knew he was coming and activated his ability. He does not have Sixth Sense or any clairvoyant abilities.

It clearly states that his best defense is his anonymity. The second James T. or the Republicans tell anyone where he is he is pretty much screwed.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Obvious cartoonish decoy to you perhaps, given such things can't exist RL, but in Rifts there's nothing that would give any adventuring party any reason to think the decoy brain is anything but the real deal.

Disagreed on what the asthetics of such would be in-cannon. There is no possible reason to build a computer like that, especially in the golden age. even in character that would be rediculous.

Again you're basing the idea that it's 'obviously ridiculous' on it looking ridiculous to you. Given ARCHIE-3 is paranoid about remaining concealed and set up the ARCHIE-3-OZ specifically as a decoy it would have to be incredibly stupid to use a decoy that even it would have to know was obviously a stupid fake that no one would believe was real. Since we've seen how detail-oriented ARCHIE-3 is to the degree people believe the Shemarrians are real and think his robotics line is a native-born and modern company we have to accept that the fake brain is something completely believable within the context of the Rifts setting.

Or prehaps he's simply fallible like anyone else. Just because it was his desire to make a beliveable decoy dosn't mean he necessarly succeeded in doing so. given what we have, he failed in doing so.

You also vastly over-inflate the ability of magic-users and speak as if the average adventuring party has an army at hand to call in and just go 'hey we found this complex do raze the entire thing to the ground please?' and *poof* ARCHIE-3's destruction is certain of which that's simply not the case.

No, your conflating two seperate arguments. one was in responce to Gryphon's "Archie could do major damage to any other major power" to which I replyed "Well, yea, through surprise, then archie gets razed to the ground in retaliation. sort of a glass cannon". this was entirely seperate from my statement that a well-equiped mid-level adventuring party could also destroy archie in a commando raid, intended mostly to strength the argument that "if a small group can, an army would crush him"

also, how am I over-inflating the value of magic-users? how did I discribe anything beyond their capabilities. Invisibility superior is a problem that ACHRIE has no counter for. none. whatsoever. it's a glaring hole in his defences the game never addresses. Add in the ability of mystic portal to trivially get through any barriers that can't be hacked or otherwise bypassed (at the cost of giving away your present location, granted) and it really dosn't seem hard. granted, most human mages wouldn't have the PPE to do it all in one go, but given time to map out the facilities it's definatly possible, and proves that any magic-heavy army with dozens of mages would find it a veritable cakewalk.

If I'm inflating magic-users, please, tell me how archie would counter a stealthy mage invisibily mapping out his complex and then leading a commando raid aginst his core, because as far as I can tell there's nothing any of his robots can do about it.

EDIT:

Note on Traps: The minor Psi-power Sixth Sense can go off up to a minute before danger, thus allowing the psychic to simply NOT trigger the traps if he so chooses if they SOMEHOW are missed on his astral recon.

Or the mage can cast Trap Detection which grants the trap and mine detection skill at 94%

Also, I didn't even realize the fact astral projection could map it out without any problems. Nice one Soldiger!

When someone refers to just about anything as a slam-dunk certainty they're generally over-inflating or under-valuing one side very badly.

Usually. Not always. However the failure would be more because of a mistake in planning by the mage than the ability. It's certainly possible for individual mages/groups to fail, a sufficently prepared and paranoid group can certainly succeed with moderate difficulty.

I will grant discribign it as a cakewalk is exagerating. The actual actions may be compartivly simple, it's the planning stages where the difficulty lies. 90% of the effort is planning, and failure here results in failure in practice. if the planning is done properly then succeess in the feild is almost certain.

Being purely technological doesn't make you a sitting duck when the magic users come around and ARCHIE-3 does actually make an effort to have some idea about magic and what it can do and it's unlikely it wouldn't have something set up to deal with at least the more commonly known spells.

It would have something set up such as...

Examples, please. Because the truth is, yes, purely robotic minions does in fact make you a sitting duck, and all the fixes to this involve using biological begins. he does not due to his insanity/ego, therefore, exploiting this weakness is the key to killing him. his best defence has ALWAYS been the fact that no one knows about him and that's been clearly stated from the start. that is a pretty big indication once the cat is out of the bag he's mostly done for.

Something like ARCHIE-3 should never be an easy kill by anyone in any case.

Why not? it's an insane computer with a robot factory. that's it. Nothing in it indicates he sould be a major planetary threat. His only defence has been his carefly kept secrecy. Once that's gone he's a goner. This is exactly the kind of thing that should be easy to kill once it's weakness's are identified and exploited.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Subject is moving down corridor 7-B, there are 7 of them, three in front, four in the rear.

Detection methods: Pressure and air displacement. Optical distortion of trip lasers.

Invisibility superior covers motion detectors, and optical detectors, which is what those are. so won't work.

Visual sensing seeing a door open for no reason at all.

quite accurate. astral projection takes care of the above however.

Audio when they talk to each other. Radio chatter interception.

It's called moving silently and hand signals. telepathy, if enough characters have it, could also help.

The technical list of options isn't endless, but its lengthy and all of its reasonable for someone as advanced as Archie is.

And all of which are pretty much covered by the fact that invisibility superior blocks ALL forms of technological sensors.

Worse comes to worse, they sweep fire down the corridor in response, accepting a certain degree of damage.

yep. however, akestic soldiger had an even better idea. Astral projection to map it out.

Also, Inv: Sup is a 7th level invocation, meaning it is less common comparatively. Its also a 20 point spell lasting less than half an hour. So a party with six characters costs 120 points every 20-30 minutes. Since your average 7th level LLW will have 237 or so, that's quite the hit, for less than an hour. A 10th level LLW will have about 277 or so, but at least he can run through his five companions twice for a full hour. Archie's compound is pretty sizable, an hour isn't going to cut it really.

That's why the mage goes solo to map it out, and only brings the party when he's ready for the assult and knows exactly where to go.

This isn't going to be a cake walk, by any means.

Planning isn't no. once you have the map and the plan executing it will be relativly trivial.

Also, in an era where calling in an air strike is increasingly common, its pretty likely Archie and Hagan have reacted appropriately, and gone deeper than ever before. they have had years off the scope, and have expanded their operations, and are especially concerned with the Republicans infiltrating again. If they move operations down several hundred meters, and then limit the approaches such that the Republicans can't get in undetected any longer, then that particular issue is gone. (Though I bet the classic Aliens character of Newt would still be able to get by in comparison.)

Except he hasn't, so he hasn't. without indications of such the layout of his place remains mostly the same.

Granted, even if they do move it somewhat, it still won't matter overmuch. that just means more airstrikes are needed. once you have established air superiority you can take all the time you need.

[Akashic Soldier]

Something like ARCHIE-3 should never be an easy kill by anyone in any case.

Why not? it's an insane computer with a robot factory. that's it. Nothing in it indicates he sould be a major planetary threat. His only defence has been his carefly kept secrecy. Once that's gone he's a goner. This is exactly the kind of thing that should be easy to kill once it's weakness's are identified and exploited.

If it couldn't be done they wouldn't have given him stats and built a whole adventure around it. With the exception of "you are tricked by the A3-OZ" (legit plan in my opinion) it is written in a way that it assumes the players defeat him.

A3 gets a huge amount of fan-service on the forums because people like him (and that is okay) but its the same problem people have when they can't admit that another superhero would beat their favorite superhero. Its personal bias. They're building him up to be more than he is in their mind. He is impressive.. a sapient machine... but he's no Brainiac or Ultron. He is a scared little A.I. hiding in his delusions from a world gone mad.

[The Beast]

Way off thread point. Question asked and answered. Thread sufficiently derailed. Could a mod lock this crap please?

Sorry, we don't lock topics because they wander off from the original subject.

What?! Since when?

[Nekira Sudacne]

First, what's there to counter? Let's assume the Mystic or Invisible mage with a while lot of PPE does get inside.

Then what? Anyone of a dozen systems eventually note the anomalies they invariable cause. Missing guard robots. Doors that opened and no one was even close to them. The various passive sensors that were likely to be in place even before the Republicans put Archie and Hagan on pins and needles.

Why would you need to make any guard robots go missing? they can't see you move around them. opening doors may cause a problem, but mystic portal might bypass the need to open them.

Passive sensors don't help. Invsibility superior fools all technological sensors, passive or otherwise.

Even assuming you can somehow spoof all of these, and you get the whole layout of this site, then what? Archie is a digital being in a toaster sized body concealed somewhere in a wall in the complex. Even if the Mystic wanders into the right area and sees this toaster, he still has to recognize it for what it really is...and if he can gaze upon Archie, Archie can gaze right back and realize he is dealing with an intruder. So, suddenly defense systems are active, additional guard bots are active, doors everywhere are locked down sufficiently to avoid being easily opened, and Archie now knows he has to change his shape, move his position, and guard against astral threats...however he manages to accomplish that.

Except archie can't see him either.

Of course, if mystic is astral projecting, all this is moot. he can pass through all walls/doors/bots without any of them being able to see him. even archie himself can't.

As for people telling anyone about, him, no one is likely to believe James T. Some might be more willing to believe the PCs that went on that adventure, except now the location is well within the realms of the Shemarrians, who are not goign to allow expeditions into that region for a variety of reasons (all made up of course, but all the same...) The Republicans want, no, really they need Archie's resources if they want to become a power player and not a pawn of the other nations on North America, so they aren't going to say anything about him either. And this all presumes that after the events of the James T. adventure, the Mechanoids, the increase in Atlantean Slaver activities, the Republican Incursions, and the dramatic expansion of Archie's Shemarrian and Titan Robotics Industries efforts that he is even still in that sale facility any longer.

If your refering to armies coming to take him out, I put that specifically in responce to ARCHIE launching an attack on a major power trying to cripple/take them out. at this point stealth is already thrown out the window.

While Archie is smart, he is also a bit egotistical, but Hagan isn't likely to make that mistake, and for the time being at least, if his advice is expressed as him wishing to protect his friend, Archie is entirely too likely to listen. Any perceived lack of defense you might see is likely to be purely illusionary in nature really. I don't say that he is without his faults, but his security isn't one of them, not after the Mechanoids and Republicans got through schooling him in that regard.

Which is why he's safe for now. No one was claiming archie is going to be stomped at random for no reason, i'm saying ARCHIE will be stomped if he tries to take over the world by attacking major north american powers. The whole thing with a lone adventuring party taking him out was an unrelated tangent to show how vunerable archie truely is to a foe who knows he's there. Please keep the proper context of my arguments in mind.