Spellcasting difficulty

[kiralon]

Is spell casting in your campaign hard or easy, is it like doing complex algorithms in your head or is it as easy as 1 + 1 = 2

I always leaned towards complex, thus you can interrupt them. Make the mage giggle and he won't be casting any spells easily.
but technically all palladium wizard spells are level 1, as in a level 1 wizard can learn them and cast them, a fresh faced 16 year old can cast screaming wall of lictalon as easily as a level 15 wizard (the only thing both need is the ppe pool, the level 1 character needs about 150-250 more, when your talking 5000 ppe thats not much).

Do you guys give penalties for learning higher level spells and bonuses for lower ?

Do you just go by what the book says and leave it at duration and hit strength are the only things higher level mages get ?

Do you add new spells from other sources ?

Do you have any additional house rules that make mages tougher or squishier ?

Do you use 1st ed wizard or 2nd ed wizard, or some arcane blend of the 2 ?

as far as i can tell the wizard spell list was only put into levels for things other then the wizard (rune magic item creation, priest spell picking).
It just goes against my grain that a level 1 wizard can cast the most powerful spells out there as easily as a level 15 wizard if they have a ppe source, they should have to work for it to be able to cast it, not just work to find it. Sure it might not go for as long or do as much damage but in my mind its the same as a grade 6 student doing grade 12 math, he should have a high failure chance, but in palladium the only difficulty in casting Knockout old ones and make them slumber forever is finding the spell and the ppe to power it, it didn't take lictalons (and the other 2) years of training and practice in the magic arts to do it, if they had handed over their stuff (obviously lictalon had items that had ppe stored, i doubt a level 15 mages ppe would have cut it) to a lvl 1 mage he could have cast it.


edit: forgot one thing, do you award xp for actual spell casting like skill usage.

[Zamion138]

The time length of casting, ppe cost, difficulty of finding a lv15 spell , occ iq requirement .......... so no i leve it as is.
I do not give xp for casting, i dont give xp for swining a sword either though.
I have had "concentration" checks if its crazy around a mage or they get hit but its pretty subjective like roll under your me. -* amount or the like......

[drewkitty ~..~]

Is spell casting in your campaign hard or easy, is it like doing complex algorithms in your head or is it as easy as 1 + 1 = 2

I always leaned towards complex, thus you can interrupt them. Make the mage giggle and he won't be casting any spells easily.
but technically all palladium wizard spells are level 1, as in a level 1 wizard can learn them and cast them, a fresh faced 16 year old can cast screaming wall of lictalon as easily as a level 15 wizard (the only thing both need is the ppe pool, the level 1 character needs about 150-250 more, when your talking 5000 ppe thats not much).

In one of the Rifters,there was introduced "ArchMage" spells. Basics being if the mage is not L7 or above they can't cast them.
Level of spells.....1) the higher the spell generally the longer is takes to cast and it costs more PPE to cast. Also the Higher level spells are rarer to find scrolls of and harder to get a mage to teach you them. It also takes longer to learn higher level spells, cause to learn a spell from a teacher takes 2 days per level of the spell. So a 7th level spell will take 14 days to learn.

2) Do you guys give penalties for learning higher level spells and bonuses for lower? Other then finding someone to teach it and needing the time to learn it, no. I do veto spells when a GM (i.e.: saying 'no you can't get that one.") Researching: the higher the spell level the harder it is to create it. See Mysteries of Magic for PF spell research and Through the Glass Darkly for Modern day spell research.

3) Do you just go by what the book says and leave it at duration and hit strength are the only things higher level mages get ?If the spell is just the standard spell, no. If the char wants a mod'ed spell then I would look at TtGD to see what changes to the spell level/PPE cost it needs for what mod's the player wants.

4) Do you add new spells from other sources ? Yes, the other settings' books, the rifter, or the Invented magic topic. But would have to vet them for any "conversions" needed for them to work in an SDC setting.

5) Do you have any additional house rules that make mages tougher or squishier ? I'd just import the spell casting times from RUE.

6) Do you use 1st ed wizard or 2nd ed wizard, or some arcane blend of the 2 ?I have never used the Spells Per Day rules for magic.

7) As far as i can tell, the wizard spell list was only put into levels for things other then the wizard (rune magic item creation, priest spell picking).
It just goes against my grain that a level 1 wizard can cast the most powerful spells out there as easily as a level 15 wizard if they have a ppe source, they should have to work for it to be able to cast it, not just work to find it. Sure it might not go for as long or do as much damage but in my mind its the same as a grade 6 student doing grade 12 math, he should have a high failure chance, but in palladium the only difficulty in casting Knockout old ones and make them slumber forever is finding the spell and the ppe to power it, it didn't take lictalons (and the other 2) years of training and practice in the magic arts to do it, if they had handed over their stuff (obviously lictalon had items that had ppe stored, i doubt a level 15 mages ppe would have cut it) to a lvl 1 mage he could have cast it.
Remember that you as the GM control what spells the Wizard can learn from others. And that Other then the "Starting Spells", the wizard only gets his 'Level Up " Spells equal to or lower then their current Level of experience. So a wizard can't get spells above his level just for leveling, and you decide what spells are available.
Guilds and other wizards DO NOT just give out Level 10 spells and above, unless there is a dire need. so for L10 and above spells the char is SoL till they get that high, or you decide they need a particular spell.

8) edit: forgot one thing, do you award exp. for actual spell casting like skill usage. Casual skill usage does not get the char exp. There has to be a need for that skill to be done 'Right Now!" that gives exp. To repeat a phrase... "You can't just backflip to the next level".

PS: Also, You need to note that even when casting higher level spells, that the range duration and damage are not what they are going to be if cast by a higher level mage. The "per Level" in the spell descriptions is the level of the mage casting the spell, not the level of the spell.

PSS: Most high level spells require the mage who wants to cast it to figure out a way to get the required amount of PPE. This can end up with getting a ritual circle of mages together, or drawing the PPE from a LL or LLN, or taking it from people.

[kiralon]

cheers guys, its good to be able to pass on those questions i have to see how other people figured things out.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Is spell casting in your campaign hard or easy, is it like doing complex algorithms in your head or is it as easy as 1 + 1 = 2

I always leaned towards complex, thus you can interrupt them. Make the mage giggle and he won't be casting any spells easily.

I don't think math is the best analogy. I always thought of it more like trying to visualize complex philosphical concepts. Each spell is kind of like a Koan. Once you master it (AKA Learn It), then you can invoke it fairly easially, although you still need to focus and thus can be interupted. But until you have your AHA moment of zen where you master it, the spell seems like gibberish.

a good way to look at it is this example:

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

Spellcasting is much like that. A young mage goes into it with all kinds of preconceptions, all of which the master has to carefully divest him of before he can even manage a globe of daylight.

but technically all palladium wizard spells are level 1, as in a level 1 wizard can learn them and cast them, a fresh faced 16 year old can cast screaming wall of lictalon as easily as a level 15 wizard (the only thing both need is the ppe pool, the level 1 character needs about 150-250 more, when your talking 5000 ppe thats not much).

No, all palladium spells are levels 1-15, it's better to say that unlike some other games the level of spell the caster can learn is not directly related to his own level, but it does limit what he can learn without a master teaching him. Of course convincing one to teach you more can be hard.

Do you guys give penalties for learning higher level spells and bonuses for lower ?

No. Heck, giving bonus's to lower level spells at higher levels would be pretty unbalanced considering some of the most useful spells in the game are low level.

Do you just go by what the book says and leave it at duration and hit strength are the only things higher level mages get ?

Yes, I never saw a reason to do otherwise

Do you add new spells from other sources ?

My "Primary" palladium group has an extensive list of homebrew spells, we also take some from various Rifters.

Do you have any additional house rules that make mages tougher or squishier ?

A common houserule in the above group (different people GM different games in it, but we usually play in each-others games) is that spells only take one turn to cast regardless of level. this makes spellcasters vastly more powerful, and in fact i'm the only GM in the group that dosn't abide by it (instead using the RUE system where higher level spells take two or three turns)

Do you use 1st ed wizard or 2nd ed wizard, or some arcane blend of the 2 ?

2nd edition only. I'm the only one in the group that even has a copy of first edition PFRPG.

as far as i can tell the wizard spell list was only put into levels for things other then the wizard (rune magic item creation, priest spell picking).
It just goes against my grain that a level 1 wizard can cast the most powerful spells out there as easily as a level 15 wizard if they have a ppe source, they should have to work for it to be able to cast it, not just work to find it. Sure it might not go for as long or do as much damage but in my mind its the same as a grade 6 student doing grade 12 math, he should have a high failure chance, but in palladium the only difficulty in casting Knockout old ones and make them slumber forever is finding the spell and the ppe to power it, it didn't take lictalons (and the other 2) years of training and practice in the magic arts to do it, if they had handed over their stuff (obviously lictalon had items that had ppe stored, i doubt a level 15 mages ppe would have cut it) to a lvl 1 mage he could have cast it.

You should look at Through the Glass darkly for nightbane, which has rules to make Spellcasting much more difficult and arcane. It introduces a Principles of Magic skill, which has to be rolled to invoke a spell correctly. it also has rules for needing to make Language skill rolls to invoke spells written in non-native languages and even mentions the GM can require a roll aginst the mages PP attribute if the gestures are very difficult. Learning spells is also a PoM skill roll, adjusted for level

edit: forgot one thing, do you award xp for actual spell casting like skill usage.

I pretty much ignore skill XP awards and and the book guidelines in general in exchange for a personal system based on cleverness, roleplay, and contributing to the fun of the group. A mage who cunningly uses an obscure spell in a creative way to foil the bad guy in one casting will earn far more XP for defeating him than the mage who just casts call lightning over and over unitl he dies.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Is spell casting in your campaign hard or easy, is it like doing complex algorithms in your head or is it as easy as 1 + 1 = 2

It depends on the spell.

I always leaned towards complex, thus you can interrupt them. Make the mage giggle and he won't be casting any spells easily.

Yeah, Spellwork requires concentration, so if they are interrupted the spell won't go off.

but technically all palladium wizard spells are level 1, as in a level 1 wizard can learn them and cast them, a fresh faced 16 year old can cast screaming wall of lictalon as easily as a level 15 wizard (the only thing both need is the ppe pool, the level 1 character needs about 150-250 more, when your talking 5000 ppe thats not much).

There are some types of magic that require the spells to be learned after the mage advances to certain levels, but, yeah, most spells can be learned at lower levels.

Do you guys give penalties for learning higher level spells and bonuses for lower ?

No, the book says how many spells of a certain level can be learned, so I leave it at that.

Do you just go by what the book says and leave it at duration and hit strength are the only things higher level mages get ?

I pretty much go by the book, yeah.

Do you add new spells from other sources ?

I borrow from everywhere, including the Rifts Book of Magic and the Rifters and have written a lot of homebrew schools of magic and spells.

Do you have any additional house rules that make mages tougher or squishier ?

Mages are already pretty powerful, I see no need to boost them up to ridiculous levels.

Do you use 1st ed wizard or 2nd ed wizard, or some arcane blend of the 2 ?

I go by Second Edition rules.

as far as i can tell the wizard spell list was only put into levels for things other then the wizard (rune magic item creation, priest spell picking).
It just goes against my grain that a level 1 wizard can cast the most powerful spells out there as easily as a level 15 wizard if they have a ppe source, they should have to work for it to be able to cast it, not just work to find it. Sure it might not go for as long or do as much damage but in my mind its the same as a grade 6 student doing grade 12 math, he should have a high failure chance, but in palladium the only difficulty in casting Knockout old ones and make them slumber forever is finding the spell and the ppe to power it, it didn't take lictalons (and the other 2) years of training and practice in the magic arts to do it, if they had handed over their stuff (obviously lictalon had items that had ppe stored, i doubt a level 15 mages ppe would have cut it) to a lvl 1 mage he could have cast it.

Well then play it that way. Do what you feel is best for your campaign if you are the GM. If you are a player, though, you are at the mercy of how the GM sees it.

edit: forgot one thing, do you award xp for actual spell casting like skill usage.

Again, it depends on the spell. I think I would do it for rituals more than basic spells, though.

[St. Evil]

Is spell casting in your campaign hard or easy, is it like doing complex algorithms in your head or is it as easy as 1 + 1 = 2
I would say easy.

Do you guys give penalties for learning higher level spells and bonuses for lower ?
Other than the insane hoop jumping to get the teacher to teach it, no.

Do you just go by what the book says and leave it at duration and hit strength are the only things higher level mages get ?
Depending on the spell, I will allow the spell strength to affect it in other ways example Armor of Ithans' A.R. is increased by spell strength.

Do you add new spells from other sources ?
Yes I do,

Do you have any additional house rules that make mages tougher or squishier ?
creative use of spell strength see answer above for example, PPE channeling from Rifts #21

Do you use 1st ed wizard or 2nd ed wizard, or some arcane blend of the 2 ?
Only some of the spells from 1st edition, that did not make it to 2nd .

edit: forgot one thing, do you award xp for actual spell casting like skill usage.

Yes, plus additional for stuff that saves people or ingenious use of spells.
Please read answers inside quote. Tried get answers separate from quote but my post fu is weak.

[kiralon]

looks like rifter 21 is a must
thanks for replies

[zyanitevp]

I use the fast spell casting rules from RUE- they work very, very well, and requires less regular math than other methods, which my players love.