Flamethrowers

[glitterboy2098]

killer cyborg's post has a good analogy, but doesn't explain the main reason it's an issue.

you have to remember that heat is the transfer of energy. heat flows from hotter things to cooler things. when it increases up in a hotter place faster than an object can get rid of it, that object gets hot as well.

the issue with EBA is that only way to get rid of heat in the suit is going to be the 'air conditioning' the suit would have tubes of fluid to pick up heat, and radiatiors and fans and such to move that heat outside the suit. heat transfer systems. the temperature ratings for suits is less the temp the armor can take physically, and more 'how hot can it get before the air conditioning can't keep the wearer perfectly cool.

if you walk into a fire wearing EBA, odds are you won't have to worry about the suit's armor failing, but you probably will have to worry about the air conditioning not working well enough to keep the person inside safe. when the environment around you is too hot, your ability to remove heat from the suit is going to suffer, because heat has to flow from the hotter to the cooler spots. after a certain point (the temp ratings), the suit's cooling systems wouldn't be able to get rid of enough heat to prevent the person inside from getting hot.

so if you are wearing a suit rated for 400 degrees, and walk into a 600 degree oven, it would probably be like being a 200 degree environment for the person inside the suit. uncomfortable, and odds are if you stay there too long you'll have heatstroke, dehydration, burns on the skin from where the hot metal/ceramic/plastic of the suit is close to you, etc.


now, against stuff that only lasts a second or two, like 'plasma' weapons (which by the way, in rifts is not actual plasma, as per Kevin S. and the atlantis sourcebooks. it's 'super napalm'), you don't have to worry much about heat transfer. heat transfers at specific rates by material. this is why metal things warm up faster than wood, for example. but unless you have complex machines to do it, you can't force more heat to transfer than it will naturally. so while the stuff that hits your suit may be hundreds of degrees hotter than your suit is rated for, only a small amount of heat is likely to transfer before the 'plasma' dissipates/burns out.

[Killer Cyborg]

So then how does the interior take damage when the exterior doesn't?

I skipped a lot of your last post, because it wasn't making sense.
I caught this part later, though, and figure that it should be addressed:

Something does not need to become damaged in order to become hot.

If you don't believe me, build a good fire in a wood stove.
The stove will become hot.
It will NOT become damaged.
Yet if you touch the undamaged stove, YOU will become damaged.
Because the stove is tougher than you are.

EBA in Rifts is mega-damage as a rule.
It can become VERY hot without becoming at all damaged.
You could heat an entire suit of EBA up to 1,000 degrees F, let it cook for a couple of days, and all that would happen to the suit is that it would become hot.

But if there's a human inside the suit, they're most likely going to die in relatively short order, because the suit can not protect the wearer from environmental temperatures that high.

Just like if you cook something in a pot on the stove, the stuff inside the pot will cook and break down, but the pot will not be harmed.

Whoa there. You were the one who brought up the "cooking a turkey" analogy. First it's we use slow cooking instead of blasts of heat to cook(hurt the occupant). Then despite outside temperatures the "inside can stay nice and frozen". Then the outside of the turkey becomes "the armor itself", which takes the damage instead.

There is no "then."
That was always the point.

Then I bring up the fact that EBA armor doesn't take damage from normal flame, trying to show that an analogy where convection cooks the occupant from outside in(over the span of hours I might add for this threads sake) doesn't work when the skin of the turkey ignores that level of heat. If you don't like your own analogy and want to switch that's fine, just say so.

The first analogy was for mega-damage attacks such as plasma blasts, where the "skin" (the armor) would get burnt (damaged).
You switched to SDC flamethrowers, so I switched analogies.
Both analogies are just fine for what they're addressing.

I'm not sure your new analogies are on the mark either.

No analogies are perfect, because no two things are exactly alike.
The question is, do you understand what I'm saying?

[SAMASzero]

Then isn't the proper solution then be to apply pass-through damage to every heat- or cold-based weapon with a sustained effect?

The only possible contention I seem to be seeing here is how long "sustained" should entail?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Flamethrower type weapons can be found in the Alien Unlimited books (AU&AUr) in the equipment section.

The AU sonic weapons do have "pass through" damage capabilities.

[Shark_Force]

Then isn't the proper solution then be to apply pass-through damage to every heat- or cold-based weapon with a sustained effect?

The only possible contention I seem to be seeing here is how long "sustained" should entail?

well, i don't think EBA lists how cold it can protect against. and frankly, there actually is a lower limit to how cold things can get, so it's entirely possible that the armour could (in theory, bearing in mind that rifts doesn't often get too picky about science) protect the wearer from all cold (although no such mention is given).

but yes, you'd have to decide for yourself how much damage is dealt, and how long it takes for the armour to heat up for fire damage... for cold, i'm going to guess there might be a table somewhere, probably in the canada book or the first russia book.

[flatline]

Then isn't the proper solution then be to apply pass-through damage to every heat- or cold-based weapon with a sustained effect?

The only possible contention I seem to be seeing here is how long "sustained" should entail?

This is the situation exactly.

If we knew the effective R-value of EBA, then we could actually calculate the rate of energy transfer with precision.

--flatline

[glitterboy2098]

actually, IIRC some of the armor in rifts canada lists how well it protects from cold weather..

[Icefalcon]

actually, IIRC some of the armor in rifts canada lists how well it protects from cold weather..

The only problem with this is that it already contradicts information given in RMB and RUE. Whenever we see a list of EBA armor abilities, they always state that the armor will protect the wearer in space which is much colder than Canadian winter.

[ShadowLogan]

actually, IIRC some of the armor in rifts canada lists how well it protects from cold weather..

There are very few Body Armors mentioned in Canda, and none of them seem to talk about specific benefits that I can find. However on pg30 (under "Wearing Heavy Armor") and pg25 (under "Cold Water Kills", EBA is in bold in 3rd paragraph) are two specific instances that talk about EBA in relation to environmental cold conditions.

Pg30 rates the temp at 12hrs before the suit's will burnout when exposed to sub-zero temp.

Pg25 is 3hrs per 10MDC of the armor (EBA and PA) before the environmental systems overload from the frigid temp in water and effects of hypothermia begin. "The time armor can maintain environmental control and protects it's wearer from hypothermia and frostbite is 3 times longer when exposed to sub-zero air temperatures."

[Shark_Force]

actually, IIRC some of the armor in rifts canada lists how well it protects from cold weather..

The only problem with this is that it already contradicts information given in RMB and RUE. Whenever we see a list of EBA armor abilities, they always state that the armor will protect the wearer in space which is much colder than Canadian winter.

it is a bit of a difference. yes, it's cold in space. but the only way to lose heat is by radiation... limit heat loss from radiation, and you're golden. (limit it too much, and eventually you'll be a nice golden brown around the edges if you have anything that generates a fair amount of waste heat, actually...)

vacuum is an excellent insulator. it just comes with the drawback that you can't exactly breathe it.